WEBVTT - Attacking Assumptions 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:14.920 Good morning, Peepsen. Welcome to WIKA F Daily with Meet 0:00:14.920 --> 0:00:19.119 your Girl Danielle Moody, recording from the Home Bunker. Folks, 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:23.320 Every once in a while, when Doctor Jonathan Mexil are 0:00:23.320 --> 0:00:27.319 in house, Doctor and I get together, we disagree, you know, 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:31.840 and I think that we have constructive conversations on how 0:00:31.880 --> 0:00:34.599 we can get to a place of consensus. And so 0:00:34.840 --> 0:00:39.560 on today's episode, we discuss where we think the Vice 0:00:39.600 --> 0:00:43.479 president should be in her campaign as it pertains to 0:00:44.080 --> 0:00:49.760 discussing gun reform. And you know, Jonathan is our expert 0:00:50.040 --> 0:00:54.240 on gun reform and on how to speak to gun owners, 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:58.040 particularly with his new book, What We've Become. And so 0:00:59.040 --> 0:01:02.680 we get into a conversation where we disagree, and I 0:01:02.720 --> 0:01:07.840 think that we should not run away from those conversations. 0:01:07.880 --> 0:01:10.880 I think that it is important for us to find 0:01:10.959 --> 0:01:15.480 ways to connect and understand that what works for one 0:01:15.520 --> 0:01:19.679 group of people may not work for another group of people. 0:01:20.440 --> 0:01:26.480 And you know, if you watched Vice President Harris's campaign 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:30.440 rally in Atlanta, which my god, folks, I tell you, 0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:34.119 let me tell you, it's been a long time since 0:01:34.160 --> 0:01:37.319 I have felt hopeful. It's been a long time since 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:41.080 I have felt possible and I am feeling all of 0:01:41.120 --> 0:01:46.640 those things and more. Her speech was absolute fucking fire. 0:01:47.000 --> 0:01:49.960 The call out, the direct call out to Donald Trump 0:01:50.120 --> 0:01:55.120 is exactly what his misogynistic in sell. You know, white 0:01:55.160 --> 0:02:01.800 supremacist organization right cult cannot stand black women in power, 0:02:02.040 --> 0:02:05.920 women of color in places of authority. And you know, 0:02:06.120 --> 0:02:09.480 having the audacity to call him out and so in 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:12.360 doing so and doing it with the smile and doing 0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:17.600 it with swag is exactly what shows the difference between 0:02:17.680 --> 0:02:22.840 her campaign and Biden. I think that Kamala Harris's campaign 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:26.359 right now is one that feels fresh, It feels vibrant, 0:02:26.639 --> 0:02:31.280 It is exciting, It is mimeable, which matters, right. And 0:02:31.680 --> 0:02:33.760 you know, while I will continue to say that I 0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:37.280 respect Joe Biden, I respect his act of patriotism that 0:02:37.360 --> 0:02:42.840 he did, there was a serious, heavy tone to his campaign. 0:02:42.960 --> 0:02:46.320 It was not hopeful, right, saving the soul of the 0:02:46.440 --> 0:02:51.800 nation while factual was not hopeful. And so the VP's 0:02:51.840 --> 0:02:55.919 ability to pivot from that into freedom and into using 0:02:55.960 --> 0:02:59.320 Beyonce and into using images of things that we hold 0:02:59.360 --> 0:03:03.079 dear as Americans, I think has galvanized folks in a 0:03:03.120 --> 0:03:07.880 way that we missed dearly and a way that you know, 0:03:08.080 --> 0:03:12.320 even Obama two thousand and eight. While this is reminiscent, 0:03:12.639 --> 0:03:16.120 this is wholly a separate beast, and I am just 0:03:16.320 --> 0:03:20.400 for one here for it. Coming up next, my conversation 0:03:20.680 --> 0:03:27.080 with our friend doctor Jonathan Metzel. Folks, you know that 0:03:27.080 --> 0:03:29.440 whenever we have the opportunity to speak with our in 0:03:29.520 --> 0:03:33.239 house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel, we are always thrilled. First 0:03:33.280 --> 0:03:35.680 of all, Jonathan, let me tell you that your book 0:03:35.800 --> 0:03:38.960 Dying of Whiteness comes up now more than ever in 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:42.640 just regular conversation that I have, which is actually like 0:03:42.920 --> 0:03:45.520 really funny. So I don't know why that is, but 0:03:45.720 --> 0:03:48.760 it is coming up more and just casual conversation that 0:03:48.800 --> 0:03:51.880 I'm having, not even like political conversations, so you're on 0:03:51.960 --> 0:03:53.240 everybody's mind like what. 0:03:53.320 --> 0:03:55.280 Like, hey, what do you want for dinner? And somebody says, 0:03:55.320 --> 0:03:56.080 I'll have done way. 0:03:56.160 --> 0:03:59.440 It's just like, yeah, these people who are you know, 0:03:59.560 --> 0:04:02.400 obsessed with Donald Trump and this culton like look at 0:04:02.440 --> 0:04:05.000 them and the ear patches you know that he was wearing, 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:07.040 and they're like, you know, this is the shit that 0:04:07.120 --> 0:04:10.160 Jonathan was talking about and Dying of Whiteness, Like this 0:04:10.240 --> 0:04:11.200 is this crazy shit. 0:04:11.320 --> 0:04:13.080 But the other thing, I let me just say really quick. 0:04:13.040 --> 0:04:16.520 Before we talked that. I spoke yesterday at a it 0:04:16.560 --> 0:04:19.120 was like anti racist boot camp in Minneapolis. It was 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:21.520 a great, amazing day, and I said, do you want 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:23.240 me to talk about my new book? And they're like, no, no, no, 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:25.840 talk about DIAHOI does. And the reason I think it 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:29.479 is it's just on people's minds right now because kind 0:04:29.480 --> 0:04:32.000 of the future of the country is either built or 0:04:32.000 --> 0:04:35.160 dismantled right now. And I think that all the issues 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:38.359 that I was writing about as like almost historical, like, 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:41.200 oh God, isn't it crazy that we almost took down 0:04:41.279 --> 0:04:44.360 our whole healthcare system during a pandemic, But now it's 0:04:44.360 --> 0:04:46.880 all coming back, Like if Trump wins, he's going to 0:04:46.880 --> 0:04:51.080 dismantle the justice system, He's going to dismantle the I mean, 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:53.839 the affordable carecter would be gone, you know, and people 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:57.160 like in places like New York would lose massive health insurance. 0:04:58.160 --> 0:05:01.200 And so just the craziness that was just confined to 0:05:01.680 --> 0:05:03.560 a couple of states when I read about it, now 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:06.000 threatens to be a national thing. And so I think 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:09.160 people are wanting to understand kind of what we're up against. 0:05:09.480 --> 0:05:11.520 No, And I think that that's right because I think 0:05:11.560 --> 0:05:16.640 that there is safety in believing that the crazy right, 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:20.440 and as has been aptly attributed to the Republicans, the 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:25.560 weird can stay in their states, right, And so we 0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:29.640 who sit in coastal blue states can feel a sense 0:05:29.680 --> 0:05:32.720 of comfort like, oh, yeah, well Jonathan's book, Yeah, that's great, 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:35.120 but like I would never live in that place. And 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:39.080 now that I think that there is this deep understanding 0:05:39.480 --> 0:05:43.080 that what is happening, what they've been proposing, isn't something 0:05:43.120 --> 0:05:45.080 that's going to stay in Florida, isn't just going to 0:05:45.160 --> 0:05:48.760 stay in Texas. That it is something that can travel 0:05:49.000 --> 0:05:53.680 and become a national crisis, right, And that is what's conjuring. 0:05:53.760 --> 0:05:55.960 So maybe they'll want you to talk about your new 0:05:55.960 --> 0:05:56.960 book in ten years. 0:05:58.160 --> 0:06:01.960 Well that is the argument of my new book, that 0:06:01.960 --> 0:06:06.120 our gun policies don't understand that we're not talking about 0:06:06.160 --> 0:06:08.080 red states anymore. They have a national agenda. 0:06:08.200 --> 0:06:14.640 So yeah, so let's talk about where we are right now. 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:17.880 It is, as we're recording this, we are just a 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:21.920 little over a week since the massive seismic shakeup in 0:06:22.279 --> 0:06:26.600 our elections, where Joe Biden has stepped down, Kamala Harris 0:06:26.640 --> 0:06:29.440 has stepped in, and since then there has been a 0:06:29.520 --> 0:06:35.280 resurgence of energy, of action, of volunteerism, of excitement that 0:06:35.320 --> 0:06:38.520 we have not seen. And we know that on a 0:06:38.560 --> 0:06:42.040 lot of issues right Democrats win when Americans understand what 0:06:42.080 --> 0:06:45.640 those issues are. We know that on top right now 0:06:45.720 --> 0:06:49.360 we have issues as it pertains to abortion and reproductive 0:06:49.440 --> 0:06:53.520 rights that span from abortion to IVF to birth control 0:06:53.600 --> 0:06:56.560 and so on and so forth. But always I think 0:06:56.600 --> 0:06:59.960 at the top of many people's lists is gun reform, 0:07:00.400 --> 0:07:03.800 because every time that there is a shooting, there is 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:07.760 always a call for gun reform and then we go 0:07:07.839 --> 0:07:11.720 back to normal. So, as you are seeing the momentum 0:07:12.240 --> 0:07:17.720 gain speed around Vice President Harris, where do you think 0:07:18.400 --> 0:07:22.320 they this campaign should be taking the gun debate? As 0:07:22.360 --> 0:07:25.600 you have said that Republicans at this point are now 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:28.120 just pushing for everyone to have a gun. You get 0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:29.680 a gun, and you get a gun, and you get 0:07:29.680 --> 0:07:34.720 a gun, and using the shooting at Donald Trump's rally 0:07:34.880 --> 0:07:36.800 as their trampoline for that. 0:07:37.440 --> 0:07:41.200 Well, I very strongly feel, having as you know, research 0:07:41.320 --> 0:07:45.280 this issue very closely across red and purple state America, 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:48.240 that this is an opportunity to reboot the gun debate. 0:07:48.880 --> 0:07:51.200 I think the trap that Democrats fall into and I 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:53.360 have a lot of support for this point in my 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:56.480 new book. What we've become. The trap that democrats fall 0:07:56.520 --> 0:08:02.400 into is conflating popular quote unquote support for gun reform. 0:08:02.480 --> 0:08:06.200 In other words, people, if you survey them, will say, yeah, sure, 0:08:06.240 --> 0:08:09.920 I support background checks. But that's really different from can 0:08:09.960 --> 0:08:14.480 you win elections based on background checks? Will people vote 0:08:14.480 --> 0:08:17.880 based on guns as a wedge issue, which they won't. 0:08:17.960 --> 0:08:21.040 We won the war of popular opinion, we've won the 0:08:21.080 --> 0:08:23.880 war of social media, but we are stuck, I think, 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:28.120 electorally stuck by not seeing that that popular support because 0:08:28.360 --> 0:08:31.000 we've made all these assumptions, Like one example I talk 0:08:31.040 --> 0:08:34.319 about in the book is common sense gun reform, as if, 0:08:34.880 --> 0:08:37.480 of course anybody with any common sense would support this, 0:08:37.920 --> 0:08:39.959 and if you don't support it, you have no common sense. 0:08:40.000 --> 0:08:45.240 That is roundly rejected across many gun owning purple and 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:50.040 red states. And I think we have to attack those assumptions. 0:08:50.080 --> 0:08:52.120 And so I think it's an opportunity for the Harris 0:08:52.120 --> 0:08:55.959 campaign to first, and this is just my personal opinion 0:08:56.760 --> 0:09:00.600 talk about gun ownership. In other words, what democrats so 0:09:00.640 --> 0:09:03.560 often do is they jump in and they just talk 0:09:03.559 --> 0:09:05.920 about regulation right away, like it's not like, oh, I 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:09.800 understand why people own guns, or here's why people need guns, 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:12.560 or here's what it means to carry a gun. Something 0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:16.360 that reflects the people who might be persuaded to vote 0:09:16.360 --> 0:09:18.040 for you if you're not going to tell them the 0:09:18.080 --> 0:09:20.400 government's going to regulate your guns, which is what people hear. 0:09:20.520 --> 0:09:24.360 And so when people vote, they hear Donald Trump's voice 0:09:24.400 --> 0:09:27.240 saying that they're coming to grab your guts or I'm 0:09:27.280 --> 0:09:28.800 not going to let anybody come because I'm going to 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:31.360 defend your guns. Those are really powerful messages for people. 0:09:32.160 --> 0:09:35.120 And I just think Democrats get into a mistake, into 0:09:35.200 --> 0:09:37.480 a trap, and I'm seeing the Harris campaign do it 0:09:37.520 --> 0:09:40.959 now where the first thing they're talking about is regulation 0:09:41.360 --> 0:09:43.760 and not about gun ownership. Now, why is that important? 0:09:44.240 --> 0:09:46.920 Number One, we have way, of course, way too much 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:49.080 gun death in this country. We have fifty thousand gun 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:52.400 deaths a year on average, but there are four hundred 0:09:52.400 --> 0:09:55.760 and fifty million guns privately owned. There are over two 0:09:55.800 --> 0:09:59.520 hundred million gun owners, and so we're talking about fifty 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:01.640 thousand and they're talking to two hundred million. And so 0:10:02.160 --> 0:10:04.840 in a way, by not talking about what it means 0:10:04.840 --> 0:10:06.520 to own and carry a gun, what it means to 0:10:06.559 --> 0:10:09.360 have public space, these other issues that are not linked 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:13.000 just to preventing shootings. I just again, I want to 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:15.840 prevent shootings, but I think we go down the wrong path. 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:18.320 We immediately alienate people. So if I was doing the 0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:21.720 Hairs campaign, which I'm not, I would say, talk first 0:10:21.840 --> 0:10:25.400 about gun ownership, about gun carry, about public safety, about 0:10:25.400 --> 0:10:28.920 public space, about crime, and then talk about regulation. I 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:30.280 don't think they're going to take my word for it 0:10:30.320 --> 0:10:31.400 because they're being advised. 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:34.400 Well, I mean, give us an example of what it 0:10:34.400 --> 0:10:38.079 would look like to pivot from like because you're saying, okay, 0:10:38.120 --> 0:10:40.480 talk about these things. But I guess my question is 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:44.920 how what is the responsible way to lean into the 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:48.280 reality that there are millions of people in this country 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:51.679 that own guns? So how do we acknowledge that while 0:10:51.720 --> 0:10:54.800 also acknowledging that we have a gun problem in the 0:10:54.880 --> 0:10:55.480 United States. 0:10:55.520 --> 0:10:58.320 Oh, we have like a we have a CATASTROPHICU involvement 0:10:58.280 --> 0:11:01.120 in the United States. But the the issue that a 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:03.880 lot of gun owners know is that I'll give you 0:11:03.880 --> 0:11:06.840 an example of background checks. This is just one example 0:11:07.480 --> 0:11:11.560 that background checks are when you a point of sale interaction. Again, 0:11:11.600 --> 0:11:14.600 it's important. It's like getting a driver's license when you 0:11:14.760 --> 0:11:17.000 go to buy a gun, your name is run through 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:20.559 a federal database, and if you ping, you shouldn't be 0:11:20.559 --> 0:11:23.040 able to buy a gun. Now that sounds great, right, 0:11:23.040 --> 0:11:25.480 we don't want bad people having guns. But the two 0:11:25.520 --> 0:11:28.680 problems with that. First of all, is that, as I said, 0:11:28.720 --> 0:11:31.959 we already have like five hundred million guns and circulation. 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:35.400 And so even though everybody's like yelling about background checks, 0:11:35.880 --> 0:11:38.360 that's not going to matter. It's like taking plastic bags 0:11:38.400 --> 0:11:40.760 out of the ocean. It's not going to matter for 0:11:40.840 --> 0:11:45.160 a very very very long time. And so that's part 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:47.120 of it. But the other thing is, if you have 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:50.280 an incarceration record, for example, you ping on a background check. 0:11:50.720 --> 0:11:52.720 So who do you think ping's on a background check? 0:11:53.240 --> 0:11:55.599 People of color, communitic color, who then go to the 0:11:55.679 --> 0:11:57.680 quote unquote legal gun market and stuff like that. So 0:11:58.040 --> 0:12:01.319 the whole system is just like we act. I think 0:12:01.360 --> 0:12:03.360 too often like oh, we need these three things and 0:12:03.480 --> 0:12:06.199 red flag wells and all these things, and I think 0:12:06.240 --> 0:12:08.640 we just don't see the bigger picture. And so for me, 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:12.080 when I write about this and talk about it, I 0:12:12.120 --> 0:12:15.560 have like a broader agenda. I talk about gun safety 0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:21.600 entrepreneurialism where we can actually take examples from high risk communities, 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:23.719 as you and I have talked about. They're all these 0:12:23.720 --> 0:12:27.840 initiatives like jobs programs and fixing street lights and green 0:12:27.880 --> 0:12:29.960 space and all these kind of things that I think 0:12:30.000 --> 0:12:34.680 can be a real national agenda for let's invest and 0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:39.920 also reward monetarily community safety. I think there's all these 0:12:39.920 --> 0:12:42.680 algorithms that we could do. We could do much more 0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:46.880 about AI technology reducing guns, which is linked to a. 0:12:46.840 --> 0:12:50.760 Corporate But again, like I see all of the solutions 0:12:50.800 --> 0:12:54.920 that you're offering, but I'm still confused about how we 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:59.360 have the conversation with gun owners to move to a 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:00.480 place of safe. 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:03.120 Well, it were one hundred days or less away. So 0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:05.720 it's about rhetoric right now. And I'll just say that, 0:13:05.760 --> 0:13:08.920 when's the last time you heard a Democrat really speak 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:12.679 convincingly about why people own guns or carry guns before 0:13:12.679 --> 0:13:13.840 talking about regulation. 0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:17.000 I've never heard it. But my point is that I 0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:19.400 think that you're making a valid point, But like, what 0:13:19.480 --> 0:13:22.840 does that sound like to say to a crowd of people. 0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:27.000 Kamala comes out, she's in Milwaukee, and she's like, Hey, Milwaukee, 0:13:27.040 --> 0:13:28.760 we're going to be talking about this, this, this and 0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:30.520 this and this, and I want to talk to you 0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:33.959 first about guns. Okay, what is it that she should 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:34.719 be saying. 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:37.400 Well, I just did. I just had an incredible, insane 0:13:37.400 --> 0:13:39.480 Paul yesterday. We actually had a three hour fanel on 0:13:39.559 --> 0:13:42.640 exactly that topic. And so first I think she should 0:13:42.640 --> 0:13:44.680 come out and acknowledge and say, let me speak to 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:49.280 gun owners and then speak really empathically about what guns 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:51.199 mean and what it means to own and carry a 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:54.240 gun and why that's on one hand understandable and on 0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:58.840 other hand civically disastrous. But I would start with like 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:01.880 talking about why people feel like they need guns. That 0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:03.959 would just be my way. I mean, I mean, I 0:14:04.000 --> 0:14:05.480 don't know if you have enough time if you're a 0:14:05.480 --> 0:14:08.199 political candidate, but I would just talk about why people 0:14:08.280 --> 0:14:10.959 feel like they need guns and about the bigger gun markets. 0:14:11.640 --> 0:14:14.120 The thing is, I just think you need to lead 0:14:14.200 --> 0:14:17.679 with like, here's the bigger issue, here's the bigger problem, 0:14:18.400 --> 0:14:22.680 and speak to the politics of gun ownership. Because places 0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:27.080 like Wisconsin, as you're saying, have open carry, for example, 0:14:27.200 --> 0:14:29.160 they have permitless carry, so there are a lot of 0:14:29.160 --> 0:14:31.760 people carrying guns. And so the minute you just start 0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:35.480 speaking with here's the regulations we need for common sense 0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:37.120 or something like that the minute you jump in with 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:41.880 regulations first, I just feel like anybody who might be 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:43.600 crossing over to your side, and I just say, I've 0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:46.600 interviewed like over a thousand gun hunters, and I can 0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:50.800 tell you it's like it's like they're automatic news on 0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:52.120 the other side, and for a lot of people, it's 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:54.160 an autobat no. So I would start with like, let 0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:56.880 me try to understand the issue and let's come up 0:14:56.880 --> 0:14:59.280 with some new solutions something like that. That just feels 0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:03.080 like she rebooting this debate. That feels stuck and intransigent. 0:15:03.920 --> 0:15:07.040 I guess my fear is again, as I said, if 0:15:07.040 --> 0:15:09.360 you're just saying we need common sense gun andform and 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:11.560 we need to regulate, and we need assault weapons ban, 0:15:11.840 --> 0:15:15.760 which again they're already thirty million whatever AR fifteen is 0:15:15.800 --> 0:15:18.960 floating around, it just becomes people who are already convinced 0:15:18.960 --> 0:15:21.120 are going to be convinced, and people who are not 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:24.360 convinced are not going to hear like they're spoken to. 0:15:24.800 --> 0:15:27.640 And the reason I'm saying this specifically is because of 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:32.920 states like Pennsylvania, for example, real swing states, Wisconsin, things 0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:34.920 like that, where there are a lot of gun owners 0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:38.640 who are in the quote unquote undecided voter category. So 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:40.960 I don't know. I just I feel like we've tried 0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:44.160 the way of like bashing people over the head with 0:15:44.680 --> 0:15:48.160 gun regulation in the past, and I'm just urging a 0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:48.880 new tone. 0:15:49.080 --> 0:15:51.680 Does that make sense, I'm going to say yes and no. 0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:55.960 So yes, it makes sense to try and find a 0:15:56.000 --> 0:16:00.120 different posture that will open up more people to to 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:05.280 listen and hear right as opposed to guns bad, you know, 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:10.080 takeaway guns like whatever. The narrowing has been of that 0:16:10.160 --> 0:16:13.920 conversation for the last thirty plus years. On the other hand, 0:16:14.640 --> 0:16:17.920 I'm not so sure that just a change in tone 0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:23.440 is going to soften gun owners who have been so 0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:27.240 hardened to the place of this is mine, this is mine, 0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:29.960 and I don't care about the safety of my neighbor 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:33.280 because I've always said, why can't we come from a 0:16:33.320 --> 0:16:38.840 place of community care as opposed to just individual rights? 0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:42.200 Right? But look at the assumption you just made about 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:45.440 why people own guns, right, that they're protecting their property, 0:16:45.760 --> 0:16:47.800 And I just say, I just think that that is 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:51.120 true for some gun owners. It's not true for other 0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:54.000 gun owners. Some people, I mean, people own guns for 0:16:54.040 --> 0:16:56.880 a lot of different reasons, and so I just think 0:16:56.920 --> 0:17:00.320 that too often. Again, for me, the rhetoric of common 0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:03.440 sense gun reform, it just creates either you have common 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:06.240 sense because you support public health, or you're an idiot. 0:17:06.440 --> 0:17:08.680 And so I just think that it creates this easy 0:17:08.720 --> 0:17:11.520 divide between people on our side and people on their side, 0:17:11.560 --> 0:17:13.800 which is in part, you know, we're in a zero 0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:16.720 s on political system. That's probably how it works. But 0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:21.560 it's also that it's just an automatic no for gun owners, 0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:24.320 many gun owners who might come to your side. And 0:17:24.359 --> 0:17:27.560 so I just think, like I was in Minneapolis Saint 0:17:27.560 --> 0:17:31.000 Paul yesterday, and they're doing incredible things, right. They're taking 0:17:31.080 --> 0:17:34.919 this problem of rampant gun crime in many parts of 0:17:34.920 --> 0:17:37.719 the city, and they're doing all of these programs, all 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:41.960 of these investments, they're investing in all these civic things, 0:17:42.000 --> 0:17:45.200 they're building, all these programs. It's actually created new avenues 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:48.560 of civic life because they realize that like owning a 0:17:48.600 --> 0:17:51.399 gun is also a form of self protection and the 0:17:51.440 --> 0:17:53.199 police aren't going to come around, and all these kind 0:17:53.240 --> 0:17:55.520 of things, like people own guns, and also like white 0:17:55.520 --> 0:17:57.400 people own guns, so why shouldn't we own guns? Gun 0:17:57.440 --> 0:18:01.159 ownership is really complicated, and I wish we had no 0:18:01.240 --> 0:18:04.280 guns as you know, but I also know that we're 0:18:04.280 --> 0:18:07.200 in a world right now where I guess my sense 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:10.080 just from my data is that Democrats are not voting 0:18:10.160 --> 0:18:13.560 on guns as a wedge issue so much, but gun owners, 0:18:13.680 --> 0:18:16.840 if they feel like they're being regulated, that is a 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:19.199 big motivation for them not to vote for Democrats. And 0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:22.280 I'm just arguing that we rupture that now. I agree 0:18:22.320 --> 0:18:25.000 that we have like less than one hundred days, so 0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:28.840 I do think that a change in tone is maybe superficial, 0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:30.679 but it's also an opportunity right now because we have 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:33.359 like a surprise candidate to reboot this debate, and I 0:18:33.359 --> 0:18:35.040 don't in a way that I don't think would lose 0:18:35.040 --> 0:18:39.520 her any support, and especially because it's just the automatic 0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:42.280 trap we fall into is like there's a shooting, the 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:47.720 Trump shooting. One side says we need regulations. The other side, 0:18:47.760 --> 0:18:49.879 the Trump side, says, this is why people need to 0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:52.960 be armed, because this unexpected situation could come and we 0:18:53.080 --> 0:18:56.080 lose that calculus. And so I'm just trying to say, 0:18:56.359 --> 0:18:59.880 let's strategize rupturing that calculus. I realize I'm not convincing 0:18:59.880 --> 0:19:03.840 you right now, but maybe one of our viewers. 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:08.280 Is like, I'm not going to be convinced because I've 0:19:08.320 --> 0:19:10.800 seen all the poll numbers most gun what is it saying, 0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:13.720 most gun owners, you know, believe in background checks, most 0:19:13.760 --> 0:19:16.000 gun owners believe in X, Y and z, most gun 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:19.040 owners are legal gun owners, and so on and so forth, 0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:23.600 and Okay, so if those numbers bow true, then you, 0:19:24.000 --> 0:19:27.000 as a gun owner, know exactly how dangerous it is 0:19:27.320 --> 0:19:31.080 the hobby that you have, and you know exactly how 0:19:31.240 --> 0:19:34.520 dangerous it has become over the last thirty and forty 0:19:34.600 --> 0:19:38.399 years since Columbine, Right, and how many shootings there have been, 0:19:38.440 --> 0:19:40.439 and how many mass shootings there have been, And so 0:19:41.080 --> 0:19:44.879 I don't know if again saying, hey, gun owner, I 0:19:45.000 --> 0:19:47.800 understand that there are a myriad of reasons why people 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:50.480 own guns. Some is for protection, other is is for 0:19:50.800 --> 0:19:53.120 you know, safety, other is is for sport blah blah 0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:55.640 blah blah blah. But the reality is, we have more 0:19:55.640 --> 0:19:58.680 guns in this country than we do people and people 0:19:58.960 --> 0:20:01.280 as a community. We should be safe to go into 0:20:01.320 --> 0:20:03.680 houses of worship, to go into our schools, to go 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:05.199 to the movie theater, to go to the mall, to 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:07.679 go to a concert without thinking that this may be 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:10.680 our last moments on earth because of somebody with a gun. 0:20:11.240 --> 0:20:13.959 But what do we also know all of those people 0:20:14.240 --> 0:20:17.320 who have been found to have been shooters all got 0:20:17.320 --> 0:20:20.879 their guns legally. So like again, I am at a 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:25.800 crossroads as everyone is, where I don't understand, like I 0:20:25.880 --> 0:20:29.200 don't if a classroom full of dead children doesn't change 0:20:29.240 --> 0:20:32.760 your mind, I don't know if a fucking tone change does. Right, 0:20:33.000 --> 0:20:35.679 like me saying hey, I was a girl scout and 0:20:35.720 --> 0:20:38.159 I got a gun badge, Like, I just don't see 0:20:38.680 --> 0:20:39.920 you know how that works. 0:20:40.359 --> 0:20:41.960 Did you just say fucking tone change? 0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:43.120 Yeah? I did. 0:20:44.119 --> 0:20:47.600 Yeah. No, I'm not suggesting just a fucking tone change. 0:20:47.760 --> 0:20:51.159 I'm actually suggesting that our goal be rupturing the debate. 0:20:51.400 --> 0:20:53.240 And maybe this is not the right time to do it, 0:20:53.240 --> 0:20:55.280 but I'm just saying that, considering that a lot of 0:20:55.280 --> 0:20:57.840 the purple states, a lot of the swing states are 0:20:58.119 --> 0:21:01.760 strongly gun owning states, I think that a stance of 0:21:01.800 --> 0:21:06.520 a different kind of democratic messaging, I personally feel like 0:21:07.040 --> 0:21:09.680 and maybe there's a better way to say what I'm saying, 0:21:09.720 --> 0:21:12.320 which is, again my point is just jumping right in 0:21:12.359 --> 0:21:14.719 with regulation, You're just going to get the people who 0:21:14.720 --> 0:21:16.360 are already going to vote for you, but you're not 0:21:16.480 --> 0:21:18.239 going to get if people are voting on guns as 0:21:18.240 --> 0:21:20.280 a wedge issue, They're going to hear that and they're 0:21:20.280 --> 0:21:23.720 going to I mean, owning a gun. I have a 0:21:23.720 --> 0:21:26.080 lot about this in my book also makes you nervous 0:21:26.080 --> 0:21:28.679 that someone's going to take your gun. In fact, it's 0:21:28.720 --> 0:21:31.720 an incredibly powerful message, and the other side is messaging 0:21:31.960 --> 0:21:33.520 these guys are going to take your guns. And so 0:21:33.920 --> 0:21:37.439 I'm just trying to recap their strongest strategy here. But 0:21:37.600 --> 0:21:40.200 also I do believe kind of what I'm saying, which 0:21:40.240 --> 0:21:43.320 is that to say, hey, look, regulation is one part 0:21:43.320 --> 0:21:45.720 of this problem, but we also need to do ABC 0:21:45.920 --> 0:21:48.880 and D to rebuild civic space and trust, to make 0:21:48.960 --> 0:21:54.280 guns safety profitable and entrepreneurial, to create all these other factors. 0:21:54.320 --> 0:21:56.359 Like I just think that it's got to be couched 0:21:56.359 --> 0:22:00.000 in a message because otherwise people just hear that same 0:22:00.080 --> 0:22:03.760