WEBVTT - Anarchism and Islam with Andrew 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:07.840 Hey, and welcome to another episode of It Cora Happen 0:00:07.920 --> 0:00:12.680 here with me Andrew of the YouTube channel Andrews and 0:00:12.720 --> 0:00:15.600 I'm joined today by It's me. 0:00:15.680 --> 0:00:20.360 It's just James today, Just James. That's like a cringe 0:00:20.680 --> 0:00:21.400 from the nineties. 0:00:22.920 --> 0:00:27.560 Really, I was not aware, just sort of curiosity. James, 0:00:27.960 --> 0:00:30.800 do you play any Paradox Games? 0:00:31.400 --> 0:00:33.520 I don't. I don't know what that is. I don't 0:00:33.520 --> 0:00:36.160 think it's a type of computer game. 0:00:37.080 --> 0:00:41.200 Yeah, yeah, this was well, it's like a game development company, 0:00:41.240 --> 0:00:43.360 and also they also distribute games as well. 0:00:45.320 --> 0:00:48.280 You've hit an area about which I have very little 0:00:48.320 --> 0:00:48.720 knowledge in. 0:00:49.760 --> 0:00:54.160 Yeah. And by the way, this isn't sponsored, it's just uh, 0:00:54.320 --> 0:00:58.040 it's how I ended up stumbling upon this topic. Right, Okay, 0:00:58.320 --> 0:01:00.000 so just you know, hearing me for a second. Yeah, 0:01:00.200 --> 0:01:08.319 so why the Paradox Games is Crusader Kings three? Right? Right, Yeah, it's. 0:01:08.840 --> 0:01:11.679 Okay, you know, I'm already interested to see where this goes. 0:01:12.720 --> 0:01:17.640 So, yes, it's a medieval grand strategy game. It's sort 0:01:17.640 --> 0:01:24.160 of like it's it's a combination of like those classic 0:01:24.480 --> 0:01:27.399 sort of well grand strategy games, I know, also a 0:01:27.400 --> 0:01:32.160 bit of sims flair. You're playing as a character and 0:01:32.200 --> 0:01:35.640 you're also playing as that character's dynasty, so you fit. 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:38.360 You play as the grandfather, and then the father, and 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:41.080 then the son, and then the grandson, and so on 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:47.560 and so forth, and so I actually, if you can't tell, 0:01:47.600 --> 0:01:50.560 I play the game sometimes a little bit too much, 0:01:51.280 --> 0:01:53.840 but I appreciate the role playing. The Saturn's it set 0:01:53.880 --> 0:01:57.440 between either eight sixty seven or ten sixty six and 0:01:57.520 --> 0:02:00.360 fourteen fifty three, which is considered the end of the 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:08.080 medieval era due to the fall of Constantinople to the Ottomans. Yeah. 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:10.040 So you know, at a certain point in playing the game, 0:02:10.080 --> 0:02:12.480 after I've played in pretty much every corner of the map, 0:02:12.639 --> 0:02:16.359 I was looking for a new religious movement to spread 0:02:16.360 --> 0:02:19.360 across the map for fun. Of course, this is something 0:02:19.400 --> 0:02:22.640 I do with my free time. And I started reading 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:25.520 about all these different strands of Islam that they have 0:02:25.600 --> 0:02:29.160 in the game, like the Commissians and the Ebadis and 0:02:29.200 --> 0:02:32.560 the Sufreez. Yeah, and that led me to stumble across 0:02:32.680 --> 0:02:38.120 the move Tasialism and the Naja Dad. And please bailed 0:02:38.200 --> 0:02:41.040 me with the pronunciations of everything about to pronounce in 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:48.320 this episode, but move Tassilism and the Naja Dad. I 0:02:48.320 --> 0:02:49.959 started digging into this stuff, and that led me to 0:02:50.000 --> 0:02:52.560 make the decision to talk about what I've been learning 0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:58.360 before I begin. I know, even the idea of religious 0:02:58.400 --> 0:03:04.240 anarchisms is somewhat controversial, particularly the discrepancy between the anarchist 0:03:04.240 --> 0:03:07.560 slugan of no gods, no masters, and of course the 0:03:07.600 --> 0:03:13.320 history of various faith based class struggles. MY stance on 0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:17.600 it is complicated, But whatever my stances, I don't think 0:03:17.639 --> 0:03:21.160 we could deny the reality that religious anarchisms have existed 0:03:21.200 --> 0:03:23.400 in the past and still exists today. 0:03:24.040 --> 0:03:26.919 Now I'm really interested in this, I'm I'm just I'm 0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:31.680 working on a book at the minute about anarchists at 0:03:31.720 --> 0:03:37.800 war or I guess how anarchism meets war, and people 0:03:37.880 --> 0:03:42.760 variously sort of defining out anarchism narrowly and widely. I 0:03:42.400 --> 0:03:44.640 grew up in the early two thousands, I guess, with 0:03:44.880 --> 0:03:48.320 the kind of new anarchists, as Greater called it, and 0:03:48.400 --> 0:03:54.040 they were always amongst that broader movement opposed to like 0:03:54.080 --> 0:03:57.720 neoliberal globalization. There were always religious people, and I'm not 0:03:57.760 --> 0:04:01.880 a religious person, And I went to a school where 0:04:01.920 --> 0:04:05.320 there was a priest, and the priest had been a 0:04:05.360 --> 0:04:08.520 member of the anti apartheid movement, in South Africa and 0:04:09.000 --> 0:04:12.360 was wanted them and had left for doing violence to 0:04:12.400 --> 0:04:16.240 get which, like it's pretty based and so like I 0:04:16.240 --> 0:04:18.119 have a lot of time for a lot of religious people, 0:04:18.560 --> 0:04:21.839 it's always been kind of an area of I guess 0:04:21.920 --> 0:04:25.880 interest to me this like religious anarchisms. 0:04:26.520 --> 0:04:33.200 Yeah, it certainly it has a very eventful history. Yeah, 0:04:34.560 --> 0:04:36.279 so I wanted to talk a bit about the rather 0:04:36.320 --> 0:04:40.760 interesting history of just one tradition. Although the whole thing 0:04:40.800 --> 0:04:43.000 about the anarchism and I'm going to be discussing is 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:47.440 that I wouldn't really call it anarchism, not at least 0:04:47.440 --> 0:04:52.240 not by our standards. Yeah, it's more of a distinct 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:58.040 and notable resistance to centralized authority or a minimization and 0:04:58.080 --> 0:05:02.120 decentralization of that authority. I think it's more into like 0:05:02.600 --> 0:05:07.120 a minarchism than an actual anarchism. Sure, right, but it's 0:05:07.120 --> 0:05:11.599 still interesting to see I guess, the seeds of anti 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:13.799 authoritarianism through history. 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:15.200 Right. 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:17.640 So these particular movements, they have a sort of an 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:22.280 anti Khalif, Khalif being the religious leader in Islam, they 0:05:22.279 --> 0:05:25.800 have a kind of an anti Khalif action that expanded 0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:32.080 into a broader philosophical and political conclusions. So We can 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:34.800 start in the city of Basra in Iraq in the 0:05:34.960 --> 0:05:38.400 eight hundreds, where a discussion was taking place recording how 0:05:38.400 --> 0:05:42.960 the Uma or Islamic community should respond to a leader 0:05:43.080 --> 0:05:48.400 of the Abbasid Caliphate would become corrupt and tyrannical. Now, 0:05:48.480 --> 0:05:50.680 the two me and stream opinions were that of the 0:05:50.760 --> 0:05:54.120 activists who believed in stage in a violent revolution to 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:58.880 install a new legitimate leader, and the quietists who believed impatiently, 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:06.159 perseverant under attorney or passively resistant. It's funny how we 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:14.479 see these kind of ideas about change rearing their heads 0:06:14.480 --> 0:06:18.600 again and again and again throughout history, despite various different contexts. 0:06:18.880 --> 0:06:21.000 The other people were like, yeah, let's go get it, 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:22.680 and the other people who are like, yeah, let's rock 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:25.919 back a little bit and take things with more passively. 0:06:28.120 --> 0:06:32.479 So that's interesting right now. Abubaka, the guy who was 0:06:32.520 --> 0:06:36.279 the first caliph, he made it clear in his inauguration 0:06:36.600 --> 0:06:40.839 that obedience is not incumbent upon his followers if he 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:43.680 contradicts the will of Allah. And for those who don't know, 0:06:43.720 --> 0:06:49.279 Allah is God in the Islamic religion. And yet the 0:06:49.279 --> 0:06:54.760 dominant position in Islam has been the quietest position even 0:06:54.760 --> 0:06:58.360 to this day, the activist position is less popular. Some 0:06:58.400 --> 0:07:00.760 would say some people have this side that the only 0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:03.560 manifestation of Islam can be the one seed in the 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:07.520 autocracies of Western Asia and the Arabian Peninsula. But even 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:11.240 back in Islam's heyde there were Muslims willing to resist 0:07:11.240 --> 0:07:17.240 the tyrannical control of even religiously or ordained rulers. So 0:07:17.280 --> 0:07:21.200 back to Bastra in the eight hundreds, there was also 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:24.360 a third category of solutions proposed, which we can call 0:07:24.440 --> 0:07:27.880 anarchists in the general sense, but not really in the 0:07:27.960 --> 0:07:32.840 actual sense. Most of the Muslim anarchists believe that society 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:36.160 could function without the caliph. They proposed a kind of 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:40.520 evolutionary anarchism where private property was not abolished per se, 0:07:41.080 --> 0:07:44.960 but because the ruler was considered illegitimate, the titles of 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:49.560 property the ruler granted would also be considered illegitimate. They 0:07:49.600 --> 0:07:52.480 also argue that the caliph must be agreed upon by 0:07:52.520 --> 0:07:56.360 the entire community, which is no easy task considering how 0:07:56.440 --> 0:08:01.120 Islam divided between Sunnis and Shia's almost immediately after the 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:07.720 prophet Muhammad died. However, without this consensus, no logismate clief 0:08:07.760 --> 0:08:10.280 could exist, and it was widely accepted that a law 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:14.200 did not impose obligations that were impossible to fulfill. So 0:08:14.240 --> 0:08:17.000 then it was reason that then there was really no 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:20.800 obligation to establish legitimate clief if no consensus could be found. 0:08:21.400 --> 0:08:25.160 So there's a little loopool. Basically, we need full consensus. 0:08:25.160 --> 0:08:27.760 We're never going to get full consensus. Oh well shrug, 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:32.640 you know, yeah. And then in the time, in the 0:08:32.679 --> 0:08:36.840 context rebe this is, you know, medieval times, you're seeing 0:08:36.840 --> 0:08:42.880 a lot more. You're seeing several different political configurations and 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:46.600 formations and ways of organizing society. So some of them 0:08:46.720 --> 0:08:48.960 at the time, we were seeing their neighbors, the Bedwinds, 0:08:49.040 --> 0:08:52.200 and the bed Winds were living without rulers like normal. 0:08:52.720 --> 0:08:55.120 So they were like, well, why can't we live without 0:08:55.200 --> 0:08:58.360 rulers like normal? And so they use that as a 0:08:58.400 --> 0:09:03.599 justification as well. And so they also had many proposed solutions, 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:08.200 ranging from a radical decentralization of public authority to a 0:09:08.240 --> 0:09:13.679 complete dissolution of public authority. One particular genre proposals involved 0:09:13.720 --> 0:09:18.240 replacing the calief with elected officials, either completely independent of 0:09:18.280 --> 0:09:21.560 each other or joined together in a federation, and these 0:09:21.600 --> 0:09:24.920 elected officials would be temporary and only remain in office 0:09:24.960 --> 0:09:28.600 when legal disputes arose or when an enemy invaded. When 0:09:28.600 --> 0:09:31.000 the problem was resolved, they would lose their position and 0:09:31.080 --> 0:09:37.160 society would return to quote unquote anarchy. There was even 0:09:37.200 --> 0:09:40.600 a minority sect which calls for the complete abolition of 0:09:40.600 --> 0:09:43.920 the state, called it Nashda, and they argued that if 0:09:43.960 --> 0:09:47.400 there wasn't sufficient agreement established this in aclief, there can 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:50.800 never be enough to establish law at all. They wanted 0:09:50.880 --> 0:09:56.040 not just political independence, but intellectual independence, because according to them, 0:09:56.080 --> 0:09:59.000 individuals should be able to reason for themselves and have 0:09:59.120 --> 0:10:04.360 no one above them but Allah. Basically the religious anarchist 0:10:04.440 --> 0:10:11.360 slogan one God, no masters. Yeah, right, but it'll get 0:10:11.360 --> 0:10:15.440 a twisted of course, all this radical stuff applied to 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:18.480 them within their group alone, So if you weren't part 0:10:18.480 --> 0:10:20.839 of their group, you could still be enslaved or killed. 0:10:21.760 --> 0:10:26.880 So it's kind of a selective, Yeah, it's a bit 0:10:26.920 --> 0:10:43.720 selective in their freedom mindedness. Then in eight seventeen, so 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:46.720 a couple of years later, the center of religious power 0:10:46.720 --> 0:10:50.520 and the Muslim world collapsed with the fall of Baghdad. 0:10:51.120 --> 0:10:55.120 The chaos of civil war ensued, but in the absence 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:59.240 of public authority, they would naturally emerge an order out 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:02.320 of the chaos without central planning. As we've seen it 0:11:02.320 --> 0:11:06.120 again and again and again throughout history, people self organized 0:11:06.160 --> 0:11:10.080 to protect themselves and their positions collectively in times of 0:11:10.120 --> 0:11:13.400 natural disaster, in times of crisis, people come together without 0:11:13.440 --> 0:11:16.440 having a state, having without a state having to organize 0:11:16.440 --> 0:11:18.280 them and tell them what to do and how to 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:23.360 do it. Such has been the case for centuries. And 0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:25.360 speaking of centuries, we're going to jump ahead a little 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:27.840 bit to the twelfth century where we could see a 0:11:27.920 --> 0:11:32.120 sort of a pseudo nihilist anarchist movement called the Kalandaria, 0:11:33.080 --> 0:11:38.000 a movement of wandering ascetic Sufi dervishes from Andalusia and 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:43.440 Spain to Iran, Central Asia, India and Pakistan. Many of 0:11:43.480 --> 0:11:48.680 the Khalandaria had body persins and tattoos in explicit defiance 0:11:48.760 --> 0:11:53.440 of Islamic traditions. They regarded such practices as haram. Here's 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:56.160 a bit of an interesting story. One of the earlier 0:11:56.600 --> 0:12:00.200 divisions of the Manatimir was once being followed by a 0:12:00.240 --> 0:12:04.920 crowd of admirers, and then reactions to their praise, he paused, 0:12:05.840 --> 0:12:12.320 pulled out his pep i urinated on the ground. So 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:15.800 as a sort of a radical it's almost like what 0:12:15.840 --> 0:12:16.840 seems that Greek guy. 0:12:17.920 --> 0:12:24.000 Oh, the one who like dies because of the d diogenies, right, 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:28.800 so he kind of like a Muslim dirogenies. 0:12:29.880 --> 0:12:32.959 A sort of a rejection of society and rejection of 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:35.559 its values. As a lot of people, a lot of 0:12:35.600 --> 0:12:40.479 these devices, they chose voluntary poverty and nudism as a lifestyle. 0:12:41.720 --> 0:12:45.000 They were reject civilization. They would have a sort of 0:12:45.040 --> 0:12:50.800 an active nihilism and director of society. One of them 0:12:51.080 --> 0:12:55.960 has been quoted in saying an effect that money is well, 0:12:56.679 --> 0:12:58.800 I don't know if I could say that before he 0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:02.240 crossed that out. Yeah, I think we I think we 0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:06.680 get we get the get the idea of course, again 0:13:07.360 --> 0:13:11.960 not really anarchism in the classical sense or in an 0:13:12.040 --> 0:13:24.240 actual sense, but manifestation of one trend within or one 0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:28.480 streak within an anarchist movement. Steak jump ahead against the 0:13:28.559 --> 0:13:33.720 nineteenth century. Now with perhaps the first anarchist to convert 0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:38.640 to Islam. Ivan Agrelli born in Sweden in eighteen sixty nine. 0:13:39.840 --> 0:13:44.800 Aguilli was interested in philosophy, spirituality, ideology and literature, and 0:13:44.840 --> 0:13:51.280 he explored new ideas ravenously. He joined the Theosophical Society 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:55.160 in France, and he met anarchist philosopher Peter Kropotkin in 0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:58.200 London in eighteen ninety one. He also began reading the 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:02.440 Quran around eighteen nine too, and converted to Islam in 0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:06.520 eighteen ninety seven. And GWELLI wrote about Islam and anarchism 0:14:06.679 --> 0:14:12.880 fairly frequently, but he didn't really connect them together. However, 0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:19.359 there was another one, another anarchist to convinced Islam, Isabelle Everhart. 0:14:21.160 --> 0:14:23.920 She Grubb in Geneva and converted to Islam around eighteen 0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:27.680 ninety six or ninety seven, and she challenged both Eastern 0:14:27.800 --> 0:14:32.320 and Western norms through her writings and practice practice, pursuing 0:14:32.360 --> 0:14:36.360 a nomadic lifestyle in Nigeria, joining a Sufi order and 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:40.000 expressing her unconventional spirit by dressing as a male when 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:42.800 she felt like, taking on a male name, and pursuing 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:49.280 a lifestyle of purported promiscuity journalism, smoking Kief and Junian 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:54.400 across the North African desert by horse. I think she 0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:59.880 would also be considered a figure of queer anarchist history. 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:02.880 I wasn't able to find anything about how she identified personally, 0:15:03.000 --> 0:15:09.680 but apparently so. I don't know if she was a 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:14.320 cross dresser or if she was trans or something else entirely. 0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:18.680 Right, Like you get especially in that period, like like 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:21.920 misogyny is is so rampant that like it could be 0:15:22.000 --> 0:15:26.240 necessary to like, I guess, to present as male even 0:15:26.280 --> 0:15:29.480 if if you weren't like trans in you and gender identity, 0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:32.400 just to have access to things that were constrained I 0:15:32.440 --> 0:15:34.120 don't know, or like delimited as male. 0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:36.720 Right, Yeah, exactly makes sense. 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:39.720 Yeah, it's I think it's why it's to just be like, 0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:42.680 we don't know, rather than to necessarily like like claim 0:15:42.720 --> 0:15:45.360 to someone's identity stuff when what we know is their 0:15:45.360 --> 0:15:46.320 presentation stuff. 0:15:47.360 --> 0:15:53.840 Agreed. Also during this time in the Ottoman Empire, there 0:15:53.920 --> 0:15:59.400 was a not insignificant population of European anarchists, mostly Italians. 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:03.800 In Alexandria alone, there were approximately twelve thousand Italians living 0:16:03.840 --> 0:16:06.600 and working offer in the building sector. By in eighteen 0:16:06.640 --> 0:16:09.680 seventy six anarchists they had organized a branch of the 0:16:09.760 --> 0:16:14.640 Syndicalist International Workers Association, and the early eighteen hundreds at 0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:18.040 the Comana Testa and other Italian anarchists joined the Urabia 0:16:18.080 --> 0:16:20.600 Prize in against the British, and this was perhaps the 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:24.760 first time that Muslims anarchists fought a military campaign side 0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:29.760 by side other uprising was squashed. Anarchists were less harassed 0:16:29.760 --> 0:16:32.840 in the Octoband Empire than in many other parts of Europe. 0:16:34.920 --> 0:16:38.280 Later on, in nineteen oh one, anarchists co founded a 0:16:38.520 --> 0:16:44.600 free popular university, the University Popularity Libre or UPL, in Alexandria. 0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:48.200 It provided free courses on subjects like tool stories and 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:54.120 Cunan's ideas, the arts, pragmatic topics like working negotiation strategies, 0:16:54.120 --> 0:16:58.280 et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. However, common if you 0:16:58.320 --> 0:17:04.719 were indigenous to the region, tough luck. Indigenous muslim and 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:09.199 indigenous Muslims and Arabic speakers went really part of the 0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:13.560 UPI's program went really included pretty much marginalized from the 0:17:13.640 --> 0:17:17.320 education entirely, and the UPL crash became more and more 0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:25.200 aimed toward and controlled by upper class interests. So that sucks. 0:17:26.440 --> 0:17:30.480 Yeah, that's a fair yeah, lame, very lame. 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:33.760 Yeah, a lot of disappointments in this episode, people who 0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:39.760 are like nearly there and then kind of fair of course. Yeah, 0:17:40.240 --> 0:17:54.000 but that's that's that's part of history, right, jumping head 0:17:54.040 --> 0:17:57.520 even more in the twentieth century, we got to see 0:17:57.520 --> 0:18:00.760 the fall of the caliphate in nineteen twenty four and 0:18:00.960 --> 0:18:06.320 two new influential currents of Salafiism or Slafism, the Muslim 0:18:06.359 --> 0:18:10.159 Brotherhood which is known for their social democratic lenans, and 0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:15.240 the Saudis, who are known for their monarchic venus. 0:18:15.880 --> 0:18:22.200 To put it likely, yeah. 0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:25.320 Yeah, as possible, Yeah, I mean even so late on 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:30.840 a sort of an Islamic liberation theology developing that dismissed 0:18:30.880 --> 0:18:34.280 bin Ladin and senseless and lifted up the examples of 0:18:34.320 --> 0:18:37.879 the revolutionary Barbi movement of the eighteen hundreds, Malcolm X 0:18:38.240 --> 0:18:42.840 and Ali Shariati's quest for a just and classless society. 0:18:44.000 --> 0:18:46.280 Then there's also a neo Sufi group known as the 0:18:46.359 --> 0:18:51.600 Mura Bhutin, the Mura Bhutun and the Inclusive Mosque Initiative 0:18:51.640 --> 0:18:55.320 in London as other examples of you know, how Islam 0:18:55.359 --> 0:19:00.239 could be used to resist some Islamic traditions. And there 0:19:00.240 --> 0:19:04.560 were also several individuals today who have explicitly and publicly 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:09.000 self identified as Muslim anarchists, not Muslim and anarchists, but 0:19:09.000 --> 0:19:16.360 specifically Muslim anarchists, including ab Dinner Pradu and Mohammad jan Venus. 0:19:18.680 --> 0:19:23.520 That's cool. So that's a sort of a basic rundown. 0:19:25.320 --> 0:19:30.800 But I think inevitably with these sort of topics you 0:19:30.880 --> 0:19:35.640 sort of fraught ideas, something like an Islamic anarchism, they're 0:19:35.640 --> 0:19:39.960 going to be some challenges and criticisms, right, Yeah, I 0:19:40.000 --> 0:19:43.639 would like for one, you know, it's a fairly new concept, 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:47.120 the idea of Islamic anarchism. Like I went over, there 0:19:47.119 --> 0:19:52.760 were certain trends that can be described as anarchic, amphibian, generous, 0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:57.600 but the idea of Islamic anarchism as in something born 0:19:57.680 --> 0:20:01.119 out of the after development of anim schism and through 0:20:01.200 --> 0:20:05.760 anarchism as a political philosophy, it's fairly new and it 0:20:05.960 --> 0:20:09.240 challenges a lot of the traditional Islamic teachings on authority 0:20:09.359 --> 0:20:16.200 and governance. So some scholars practitioners have pointed out that 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:19.600 with the emphasis of social order, the emphasis of authority 0:20:19.600 --> 0:20:22.040 of the state and the role of law, this idea 0:20:22.160 --> 0:20:26.520 of rejecting hierarchy and authority as advocated by Islamic anarchists 0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:33.400 is you know, heretical practically. There's also some criticism that 0:20:34.320 --> 0:20:38.000 with Islamic anarchisms rejection of all forms of authority in hierarchy, 0:20:39.400 --> 0:20:42.159 it undermines the concept of tweed, which is the belief 0:20:42.160 --> 0:20:47.520 in the oneness of God, and by you know, rejecting 0:20:47.520 --> 0:20:52.000 that by undermining that concept and promoting individualism and self rule, 0:20:52.040 --> 0:20:56.359 it sort of goes against that teaching. Of course, like 0:20:56.359 --> 0:20:59.320 I mentioned earlier, there's also this challenge to the idea 0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:03.919 that is anarchism or Islamic anarchism could be compatible because 0:21:03.960 --> 0:21:10.480 of the slogan and no cause, no masters right. Of course, 0:21:10.760 --> 0:21:14.840 Islamic anarchists and other Islamic socialists would argue that Islam 0:21:14.880 --> 0:21:17.120 should be seen as a liberating force that can help 0:21:17.200 --> 0:21:21.080 individuals achieve freedom from a Prussian exploitation. The same argument 0:21:21.200 --> 0:21:23.840 is made with a lot of other strands of religious 0:21:23.880 --> 0:21:28.080 anarchisms as well, and so to bring things to a 0:21:28.800 --> 0:21:32.520 sort of a close, I'd say that, you know, like 0:21:32.880 --> 0:21:37.960 every religious anarchism, like every political philosophy, like every religion, 0:21:38.240 --> 0:21:44.199 like everything. Honestly, people pick and shooes. You know, in 0:21:44.320 --> 0:21:47.280 Islam you can find elements of quietism as well as 0:21:47.359 --> 0:21:52.000 activism detached to mysticism, as well as pragmatic daily concerns, 0:21:52.400 --> 0:21:57.280 traditions of violence and traditions of non violence, moderation and 0:21:57.520 --> 0:22:06.200 extremism in anarchism, tensions exist between pacifism and insurrectionism, cyndicalism 0:22:06.400 --> 0:22:12.919 and individualism, nationalism and anti nationalism, collectivism and individualism again. 0:22:15.119 --> 0:22:18.120 And I'm not a Muslim, I'm not a religious anarchist 0:22:18.240 --> 0:22:25.639 of any variety. But I think that there is room 0:22:26.240 --> 0:22:32.040 for even if I may not agree with it in 0:22:32.119 --> 0:22:36.120 all cases the conclusions some people draw. I think there's 0:22:36.280 --> 0:22:39.919 room for these sorts of dialogues to be had. I 0:22:39.920 --> 0:22:42.840 think there's a room for exploration to the history of 0:22:42.920 --> 0:22:50.040 all sorts of historical movements and ideologies and religions and ideas, 0:22:51.440 --> 0:22:55.879 because I mean, there's a whole legacy of billions of 0:22:55.920 --> 0:22:58.720 people who have lived and died long before us, and 0:22:59.359 --> 0:23:01.040 I think I find it interested, at least as a 0:23:01.080 --> 0:23:06.960 thought exercise, to see how they came to their conclusions 0:23:06.960 --> 0:23:10.320 as well. So I hope this episode was start provoking, 0:23:10.480 --> 0:23:14.600 enlightening and interesting to those who tuned in. 0:23:15.840 --> 0:23:18.879 Yeah, it was good. It's always interesting to see these Yeah, like, 0:23:18.920 --> 0:23:20.239 we don't have to agree with all of it, but 0:23:21.000 --> 0:23:24.119 it's interesting to see where people come at these things from. 0:23:24.359 --> 0:23:26.720 It was I was wondering if you were going to 0:23:26.800 --> 0:23:29.480 get to or not. But like one of the things 0:23:29.480 --> 0:23:33.679 that you saw in the Spanish like not really the 0:23:33.680 --> 0:23:36.040 Civil War as much, but in the Second Republic was 0:23:36.680 --> 0:23:42.080 the socialists and and like left liberals explicitly selling out 0:23:42.119 --> 0:23:46.400 like Moroccan Muslim people and North African people more generally 0:23:46.760 --> 0:23:50.160 whatever their faith, and anarchists being like, no, we should 0:23:50.160 --> 0:23:53.639 express solidarity with these people, like even if we if 0:23:53.640 --> 0:23:55.440 they are aren't and some of them were part of 0:23:55.720 --> 0:23:59.920 like they were anarchists in Spanish North Africa of course, 0:24:00.040 --> 0:24:01.960 but like even if they weren't, being like, we should 0:24:01.960 --> 0:24:06.359 have post colonialism, and when every other kind of left 0:24:06.400 --> 0:24:09.040 stripe didn't, it's kind of one of the failing sort 0:24:09.080 --> 0:24:12.440 of public not to So, yeah, they've been these conversations, 0:24:12.480 --> 0:24:14.080 I guess for a long time. It was interesting to 0:24:14.080 --> 0:24:18.280 hear about those Sufi's in Spain and think about how 0:24:18.280 --> 0:24:20.560 long those conversations have been going back and forth, you. 0:24:20.560 --> 0:24:25.120 Know, exactly exactly. I think the whole Iberian Peninsula's really 0:24:25.119 --> 0:24:28.840 interesting reagion in terms of the confluence of cultures. I 0:24:28.920 --> 0:24:32.879 did miss that particular historical instance in my research A 0:24:32.880 --> 0:24:33.880 thousand points and it's out. 0:24:34.240 --> 0:24:39.600 Yeah, no worries big nerd for that stuff. Is there 0:24:39.600 --> 0:24:41.600 anything you'd like to plug before we get Andrew. 0:24:42.680 --> 0:24:46.359 Sure sure, so you can find me on YouTube at 0:24:46.400 --> 0:24:52.840 andrewism On, patuon dot com slash Saint Drew, and I've 0:24:52.920 --> 0:24:56.200 logged off of Twitter, but if you want to get 0:24:57.040 --> 0:25:01.840 updates what I do, decided to log in to foost 0:25:01.920 --> 0:25:04.080 updates he and there. You can follow me on Twitter 0:25:04.240 --> 0:25:09.280 at underscore same true. Thank you, Andrew, Take care everyone peace. 0:25:14.080 --> 0:25:16.560 It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 0:25:16.680 --> 0:25:19.360 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 0:25:19.359 --> 0:25:21.600 cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 0:25:21.640 --> 0:25:25.200 iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 0:25:25.640 --> 0:25:27.760 You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated 0:25:27.840 --> 0:25:30.920 monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. 0:25:31.040 --> 0:25:31.880 Thanks for listening.