1 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to another episode of It Cora Happen 2 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: here with me Andrew of the YouTube channel Andrews and 3 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 1: I'm joined today by It's me. 4 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 2: It's just James today, Just James. That's like a cringe 5 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 2: from the nineties. 6 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: Really, I was not aware, just sort of curiosity. James, 7 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: do you play any Paradox Games? 8 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:33,520 Speaker 2: I don't. I don't know what that is. I don't 9 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:36,160 Speaker 2: think it's a type of computer game. 10 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:41,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, this was well, it's like a game development company, 11 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: and also they also distribute games as well. 12 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:48,280 Speaker 2: You've hit an area about which I have very little 13 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 2: knowledge in. 14 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 1: Yeah. And by the way, this isn't sponsored, it's just uh, 15 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: it's how I ended up stumbling upon this topic. Right, Okay, 16 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: so just you know, hearing me for a second. Yeah, 17 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:08,319 Speaker 1: so why the Paradox Games is Crusader Kings three? Right? Right, Yeah, it's. 18 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:11,679 Speaker 2: Okay, you know, I'm already interested to see where this goes. 19 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 1: So, yes, it's a medieval grand strategy game. It's sort 20 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 1: of like it's it's a combination of like those classic 21 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:27,399 Speaker 1: sort of well grand strategy games, I know, also a 22 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: bit of sims flair. You're playing as a character and 23 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: you're also playing as that character's dynasty, so you fit. 24 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: You play as the grandfather, and then the father, and 25 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: then the son, and then the grandson, and so on 26 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 1: and so forth, and so I actually, if you can't tell, 27 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 1: I play the game sometimes a little bit too much, 28 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 1: but I appreciate the role playing. The Saturn's it set 29 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: between either eight sixty seven or ten sixty six and 30 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 1: fourteen fifty three, which is considered the end of the 31 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:08,080 Speaker 1: medieval era due to the fall of Constantinople to the Ottomans. Yeah. 32 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: So you know, at a certain point in playing the game, 33 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 1: after I've played in pretty much every corner of the map, 34 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:16,359 Speaker 1: I was looking for a new religious movement to spread 35 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 1: across the map for fun. Of course, this is something 36 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 1: I do with my free time. And I started reading 37 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 1: about all these different strands of Islam that they have 38 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 1: in the game, like the Commissians and the Ebadis and 39 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 1: the Sufreez. Yeah, and that led me to stumble across 40 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 1: the move Tasialism and the Naja Dad. And please bailed 41 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: me with the pronunciations of everything about to pronounce in 42 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: this episode, but move Tassilism and the Naja Dad. I 43 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:49,959 Speaker 1: started digging into this stuff, and that led me to 44 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 1: make the decision to talk about what I've been learning 45 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 1: before I begin. I know, even the idea of religious 46 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 1: anarchisms is somewhat controversial, particularly the discrepancy between the anarchist 47 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 1: slugan of no gods, no masters, and of course the 48 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: history of various faith based class struggles. MY stance on 49 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 1: it is complicated, But whatever my stances, I don't think 50 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: we could deny the reality that religious anarchisms have existed 51 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 1: in the past and still exists today. 52 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:26,919 Speaker 2: Now I'm really interested in this, I'm I'm just I'm 53 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 2: working on a book at the minute about anarchists at 54 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 2: war or I guess how anarchism meets war, and people 55 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 2: variously sort of defining out anarchism narrowly and widely. I 56 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 2: grew up in the early two thousands, I guess, with 57 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 2: the kind of new anarchists, as Greater called it, and 58 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 2: they were always amongst that broader movement opposed to like 59 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 2: neoliberal globalization. There were always religious people, and I'm not 60 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 2: a religious person, And I went to a school where 61 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 2: there was a priest, and the priest had been a 62 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 2: member of the anti apartheid movement, in South Africa and 63 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 2: was wanted them and had left for doing violence to 64 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 2: get which, like it's pretty based and so like I 65 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:18,119 Speaker 2: have a lot of time for a lot of religious people, 66 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:21,839 Speaker 2: it's always been kind of an area of I guess 67 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 2: interest to me this like religious anarchisms. 68 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, it certainly it has a very eventful history. Yeah, 69 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 1: so I wanted to talk a bit about the rather 70 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: interesting history of just one tradition. Although the whole thing 71 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: about the anarchism and I'm going to be discussing is 72 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 1: that I wouldn't really call it anarchism, not at least 73 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 1: not by our standards. Yeah, it's more of a distinct 74 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:58,040 Speaker 1: and notable resistance to centralized authority or a minimization and 75 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: decentralization of that authority. I think it's more into like 76 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: a minarchism than an actual anarchism. Sure, right, but it's 77 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:11,599 Speaker 1: still interesting to see I guess, the seeds of anti 78 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:13,799 Speaker 1: authoritarianism through history. 79 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 2: Right. 80 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 1: So these particular movements, they have a sort of an 81 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:22,280 Speaker 1: anti Khalif, Khalif being the religious leader in Islam, they 82 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: have a kind of an anti Khalif action that expanded 83 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 1: into a broader philosophical and political conclusions. So We can 84 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 1: start in the city of Basra in Iraq in the 85 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 1: eight hundreds, where a discussion was taking place recording how 86 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 1: the Uma or Islamic community should respond to a leader 87 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: of the Abbasid Caliphate would become corrupt and tyrannical. Now, 88 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 1: the two me and stream opinions were that of the 89 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 1: activists who believed in stage in a violent revolution to 90 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 1: install a new legitimate leader, and the quietists who believed impatiently, 91 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:06,159 Speaker 1: perseverant under attorney or passively resistant. It's funny how we 92 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:14,479 Speaker 1: see these kind of ideas about change rearing their heads 93 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:18,600 Speaker 1: again and again and again throughout history, despite various different contexts. 94 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: The other people were like, yeah, let's go get it, 95 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 1: and the other people who are like, yeah, let's rock 96 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,919 Speaker 1: back a little bit and take things with more passively. 97 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:32,479 Speaker 1: So that's interesting right now. Abubaka, the guy who was 98 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:36,279 Speaker 1: the first caliph, he made it clear in his inauguration 99 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 1: that obedience is not incumbent upon his followers if he 100 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 1: contradicts the will of Allah. And for those who don't know, 101 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 1: Allah is God in the Islamic religion. And yet the 102 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 1: dominant position in Islam has been the quietest position even 103 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:58,360 Speaker 1: to this day, the activist position is less popular. Some 104 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: would say some people have this side that the only 105 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 1: manifestation of Islam can be the one seed in the 106 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 1: autocracies of Western Asia and the Arabian Peninsula. But even 107 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 1: back in Islam's heyde there were Muslims willing to resist 108 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: the tyrannical control of even religiously or ordained rulers. So 109 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 1: back to Bastra in the eight hundreds, there was also 110 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 1: a third category of solutions proposed, which we can call 111 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 1: anarchists in the general sense, but not really in the 112 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 1: actual sense. Most of the Muslim anarchists believe that society 113 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 1: could function without the caliph. They proposed a kind of 114 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 1: evolutionary anarchism where private property was not abolished per se, 115 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 1: but because the ruler was considered illegitimate, the titles of 116 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: property the ruler granted would also be considered illegitimate. They 117 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 1: also argue that the caliph must be agreed upon by 118 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 1: the entire community, which is no easy task considering how 119 00:07:56,440 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 1: Islam divided between Sunnis and Shia's almost immediately after the 120 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: prophet Muhammad died. However, without this consensus, no logismate clief 121 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 1: could exist, and it was widely accepted that a law 122 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 1: did not impose obligations that were impossible to fulfill. So 123 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: then it was reason that then there was really no 124 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: obligation to establish legitimate clief if no consensus could be found. 125 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 1: So there's a little loopool. Basically, we need full consensus. 126 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 1: We're never going to get full consensus. Oh well shrug, 127 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 1: you know, yeah. And then in the time, in the 128 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:36,840 Speaker 1: context rebe this is, you know, medieval times, you're seeing 129 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 1: a lot more. You're seeing several different political configurations and 130 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 1: formations and ways of organizing society. So some of them 131 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 1: at the time, we were seeing their neighbors, the Bedwinds, 132 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 1: and the bed Winds were living without rulers like normal. 133 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: So they were like, well, why can't we live without 134 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: rulers like normal? And so they use that as a 135 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:03,599 Speaker 1: justification as well. And so they also had many proposed solutions, 136 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 1: ranging from a radical decentralization of public authority to a 137 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:13,679 Speaker 1: complete dissolution of public authority. One particular genre proposals involved 138 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 1: replacing the calief with elected officials, either completely independent of 139 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:21,560 Speaker 1: each other or joined together in a federation, and these 140 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 1: elected officials would be temporary and only remain in office 141 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 1: when legal disputes arose or when an enemy invaded. When 142 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 1: the problem was resolved, they would lose their position and 143 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: society would return to quote unquote anarchy. There was even 144 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 1: a minority sect which calls for the complete abolition of 145 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: the state, called it Nashda, and they argued that if 146 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 1: there wasn't sufficient agreement established this in aclief, there can 147 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 1: never be enough to establish law at all. They wanted 148 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 1: not just political independence, but intellectual independence, because according to them, 149 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: individuals should be able to reason for themselves and have 150 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 1: no one above them but Allah. Basically the religious anarchist 151 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 1: slogan one God, no masters. Yeah, right, but it'll get 152 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 1: a twisted of course, all this radical stuff applied to 153 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: them within their group alone, So if you weren't part 154 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:20,839 Speaker 1: of their group, you could still be enslaved or killed. 155 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 1: So it's kind of a selective, Yeah, it's a bit 156 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 1: selective in their freedom mindedness. Then in eight seventeen, so 157 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 1: a couple of years later, the center of religious power 158 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 1: and the Muslim world collapsed with the fall of Baghdad. 159 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 1: The chaos of civil war ensued, but in the absence 160 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 1: of public authority, they would naturally emerge an order out 161 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:02,320 Speaker 1: of the chaos without central planning. As we've seen it 162 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 1: again and again and again throughout history, people self organized 163 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:10,080 Speaker 1: to protect themselves and their positions collectively in times of 164 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 1: natural disaster, in times of crisis, people come together without 165 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 1: having a state, having without a state having to organize 166 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 1: them and tell them what to do and how to 167 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 1: do it. Such has been the case for centuries. And 168 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 1: speaking of centuries, we're going to jump ahead a little 169 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 1: bit to the twelfth century where we could see a 170 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 1: sort of a pseudo nihilist anarchist movement called the Kalandaria, 171 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: a movement of wandering ascetic Sufi dervishes from Andalusia and 172 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:43,440 Speaker 1: Spain to Iran, Central Asia, India and Pakistan. Many of 173 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:48,680 Speaker 1: the Khalandaria had body persins and tattoos in explicit defiance 174 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:53,440 Speaker 1: of Islamic traditions. They regarded such practices as haram. Here's 175 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: a bit of an interesting story. One of the earlier 176 00:11:56,600 --> 00:12:00,200 Speaker 1: divisions of the Manatimir was once being followed by a 177 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 1: crowd of admirers, and then reactions to their praise, he paused, 178 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:12,320 Speaker 1: pulled out his pep i urinated on the ground. So 179 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 1: as a sort of a radical it's almost like what 180 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 1: seems that Greek guy. 181 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 3: Oh, the one who like dies because of the d diogenies, right, 182 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 3: so he kind of like a Muslim dirogenies. 183 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,959 Speaker 1: A sort of a rejection of society and rejection of 184 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:35,559 Speaker 1: its values. As a lot of people, a lot of 185 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:40,479 Speaker 1: these devices, they chose voluntary poverty and nudism as a lifestyle. 186 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 1: They were reject civilization. They would have a sort of 187 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 1: an active nihilism and director of society. One of them 188 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 1: has been quoted in saying an effect that money is well, 189 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 1: I don't know if I could say that before he 190 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 1: crossed that out. Yeah, I think we I think we 191 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 1: get we get the get the idea of course, again 192 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:11,960 Speaker 1: not really anarchism in the classical sense or in an 193 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 1: actual sense, but manifestation of one trend within or one 194 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 1: streak within an anarchist movement. Steak jump ahead against the 195 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 1: nineteenth century. Now with perhaps the first anarchist to convert 196 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 1: to Islam. Ivan Agrelli born in Sweden in eighteen sixty nine. 197 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 1: Aguilli was interested in philosophy, spirituality, ideology and literature, and 198 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 1: he explored new ideas ravenously. He joined the Theosophical Society 199 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 1: in France, and he met anarchist philosopher Peter Kropotkin in 200 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,200 Speaker 1: London in eighteen ninety one. He also began reading the 201 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 1: Quran around eighteen nine too, and converted to Islam in 202 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 1: eighteen ninety seven. And GWELLI wrote about Islam and anarchism 203 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 1: fairly frequently, but he didn't really connect them together. However, 204 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:19,359 Speaker 1: there was another one, another anarchist to convinced Islam, Isabelle Everhart. 205 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 1: She Grubb in Geneva and converted to Islam around eighteen 206 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 1: ninety six or ninety seven, and she challenged both Eastern 207 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: and Western norms through her writings and practice practice, pursuing 208 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 1: a nomadic lifestyle in Nigeria, joining a Sufi order and 209 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 1: expressing her unconventional spirit by dressing as a male when 210 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 1: she felt like, taking on a male name, and pursuing 211 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 1: a lifestyle of purported promiscuity journalism, smoking Kief and Junian 212 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 1: across the North African desert by horse. I think she 213 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: would also be considered a figure of queer anarchist history. 214 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 1: I wasn't able to find anything about how she identified personally, 215 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 1: but apparently so. I don't know if she was a 216 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 1: cross dresser or if she was trans or something else entirely. 217 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 2: Right, Like you get especially in that period, like like 218 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 2: misogyny is is so rampant that like it could be 219 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 2: necessary to like, I guess, to present as male even 220 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 2: if if you weren't like trans in you and gender identity, 221 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 2: just to have access to things that were constrained I 222 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 2: don't know, or like delimited as male. 223 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, exactly makes sense. 224 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I think it's why it's to just be like, 225 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 2: we don't know, rather than to necessarily like like claim 226 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 2: to someone's identity stuff when what we know is their 227 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 2: presentation stuff. 228 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 1: Agreed. Also during this time in the Ottoman Empire, there 229 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 1: was a not insignificant population of European anarchists, mostly Italians. 230 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 1: In Alexandria alone, there were approximately twelve thousand Italians living 231 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 1: and working offer in the building sector. By in eighteen 232 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 1: seventy six anarchists they had organized a branch of the 233 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 1: Syndicalist International Workers Association, and the early eighteen hundreds at 234 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 1: the Comana Testa and other Italian anarchists joined the Urabia 235 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 1: Prize in against the British, and this was perhaps the 236 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 1: first time that Muslims anarchists fought a military campaign side 237 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 1: by side other uprising was squashed. Anarchists were less harassed 238 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 1: in the Octoband Empire than in many other parts of Europe. 239 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: Later on, in nineteen oh one, anarchists co founded a 240 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: free popular university, the University Popularity Libre or UPL, in Alexandria. 241 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 1: It provided free courses on subjects like tool stories and 242 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 1: Cunan's ideas, the arts, pragmatic topics like working negotiation strategies, 243 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. However, common if you 244 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:04,719 Speaker 1: were indigenous to the region, tough luck. Indigenous muslim and 245 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:09,199 Speaker 1: indigenous Muslims and Arabic speakers went really part of the 246 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: UPI's program went really included pretty much marginalized from the 247 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 1: education entirely, and the UPL crash became more and more 248 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:25,200 Speaker 1: aimed toward and controlled by upper class interests. So that sucks. 249 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a fair yeah, lame, very lame. 250 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of disappointments in this episode, people who 251 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 1: are like nearly there and then kind of fair of course. Yeah, 252 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 1: but that's that's that's part of history, right, jumping head 253 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 1: even more in the twentieth century, we got to see 254 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 1: the fall of the caliphate in nineteen twenty four and 255 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: two new influential currents of Salafiism or Slafism, the Muslim 256 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:10,159 Speaker 1: Brotherhood which is known for their social democratic lenans, and 257 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 1: the Saudis, who are known for their monarchic venus. 258 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:22,200 Speaker 2: To put it likely, yeah. 259 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, as possible, Yeah, I mean even so late on 260 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 1: a sort of an Islamic liberation theology developing that dismissed 261 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 1: bin Ladin and senseless and lifted up the examples of 262 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:37,879 Speaker 1: the revolutionary Barbi movement of the eighteen hundreds, Malcolm X 263 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 1: and Ali Shariati's quest for a just and classless society. 264 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 1: Then there's also a neo Sufi group known as the 265 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 1: Mura Bhutin, the Mura Bhutun and the Inclusive Mosque Initiative 266 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 1: in London as other examples of you know, how Islam 267 00:18:55,359 --> 00:19:00,239 Speaker 1: could be used to resist some Islamic traditions. And there 268 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 1: were also several individuals today who have explicitly and publicly 269 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 1: self identified as Muslim anarchists, not Muslim and anarchists, but 270 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:16,360 Speaker 1: specifically Muslim anarchists, including ab Dinner Pradu and Mohammad jan Venus. 271 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 1: That's cool. So that's a sort of a basic rundown. 272 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 1: But I think inevitably with these sort of topics you 273 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:35,640 Speaker 1: sort of fraught ideas, something like an Islamic anarchism, they're 274 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 1: going to be some challenges and criticisms, right, Yeah, I 275 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:43,639 Speaker 1: would like for one, you know, it's a fairly new concept, 276 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:47,120 Speaker 1: the idea of Islamic anarchism. Like I went over, there 277 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: were certain trends that can be described as anarchic, amphibian, generous, 278 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 1: but the idea of Islamic anarchism as in something born 279 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:01,119 Speaker 1: out of the after development of anim schism and through 280 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 1: anarchism as a political philosophy, it's fairly new and it 281 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 1: challenges a lot of the traditional Islamic teachings on authority 282 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:16,200 Speaker 1: and governance. So some scholars practitioners have pointed out that 283 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 1: with the emphasis of social order, the emphasis of authority 284 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: of the state and the role of law, this idea 285 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 1: of rejecting hierarchy and authority as advocated by Islamic anarchists 286 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:33,400 Speaker 1: is you know, heretical practically. There's also some criticism that 287 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 1: with Islamic anarchisms rejection of all forms of authority in hierarchy, 288 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,159 Speaker 1: it undermines the concept of tweed, which is the belief 289 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 1: in the oneness of God, and by you know, rejecting 290 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: that by undermining that concept and promoting individualism and self rule, 291 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:56,359 Speaker 1: it sort of goes against that teaching. Of course, like 292 00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier, there's also this challenge to the idea 293 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:03,919 Speaker 1: that is anarchism or Islamic anarchism could be compatible because 294 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 1: of the slogan and no cause, no masters right. Of course, 295 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 1: Islamic anarchists and other Islamic socialists would argue that Islam 296 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:17,120 Speaker 1: should be seen as a liberating force that can help 297 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 1: individuals achieve freedom from a Prussian exploitation. The same argument 298 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 1: is made with a lot of other strands of religious 299 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 1: anarchisms as well, and so to bring things to a 300 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 1: sort of a close, I'd say that, you know, like 301 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 1: every religious anarchism, like every political philosophy, like every religion, 302 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:44,199 Speaker 1: like everything. Honestly, people pick and shooes. You know, in 303 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: Islam you can find elements of quietism as well as 304 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 1: activism detached to mysticism, as well as pragmatic daily concerns, 305 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 1: traditions of violence and traditions of non violence, moderation and 306 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:06,200 Speaker 1: extremism in anarchism, tensions exist between pacifism and insurrectionism, cyndicalism 307 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:12,919 Speaker 1: and individualism, nationalism and anti nationalism, collectivism and individualism again. 308 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:18,120 Speaker 1: And I'm not a Muslim, I'm not a religious anarchist 309 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:25,639 Speaker 1: of any variety. But I think that there is room 310 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: for even if I may not agree with it in 311 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:36,120 Speaker 1: all cases the conclusions some people draw. I think there's 312 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,919 Speaker 1: room for these sorts of dialogues to be had. I 313 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:42,840 Speaker 1: think there's a room for exploration to the history of 314 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 1: all sorts of historical movements and ideologies and religions and ideas, 315 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:55,879 Speaker 1: because I mean, there's a whole legacy of billions of 316 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,720 Speaker 1: people who have lived and died long before us, and 317 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: I think I find it interested, at least as a 318 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 1: thought exercise, to see how they came to their conclusions 319 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 1: as well. So I hope this episode was start provoking, 320 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 1: enlightening and interesting to those who tuned in. 321 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was good. It's always interesting to see these Yeah, like, 322 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:20,239 Speaker 2: we don't have to agree with all of it, but 323 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:24,119 Speaker 2: it's interesting to see where people come at these things from. 324 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 2: It was I was wondering if you were going to 325 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 2: get to or not. But like one of the things 326 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:33,679 Speaker 2: that you saw in the Spanish like not really the 327 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 2: Civil War as much, but in the Second Republic was 328 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 2: the socialists and and like left liberals explicitly selling out 329 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:46,400 Speaker 2: like Moroccan Muslim people and North African people more generally 330 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:50,160 Speaker 2: whatever their faith, and anarchists being like, no, we should 331 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:53,639 Speaker 2: express solidarity with these people, like even if we if 332 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:55,440 Speaker 2: they are aren't and some of them were part of 333 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:59,920 Speaker 2: like they were anarchists in Spanish North Africa of course, 334 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 2: but like even if they weren't, being like, we should 335 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:06,359 Speaker 2: have post colonialism, and when every other kind of left 336 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 2: stripe didn't, it's kind of one of the failing sort 337 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:12,440 Speaker 2: of public not to So, yeah, they've been these conversations, 338 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 2: I guess for a long time. It was interesting to 339 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 2: hear about those Sufi's in Spain and think about how 340 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 2: long those conversations have been going back and forth, you. 341 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:25,120 Speaker 1: Know, exactly exactly. I think the whole Iberian Peninsula's really 342 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 1: interesting reagion in terms of the confluence of cultures. I 343 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:32,879 Speaker 1: did miss that particular historical instance in my research A 344 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:33,880 Speaker 1: thousand points and it's out. 345 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, no worries big nerd for that stuff. Is there 346 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 2: anything you'd like to plug before we get Andrew. 347 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:46,359 Speaker 1: Sure sure, so you can find me on YouTube at 348 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 1: andrewism On, patuon dot com slash Saint Drew, and I've 349 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 1: logged off of Twitter, but if you want to get 350 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 1: updates what I do, decided to log in to foost 351 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 1: updates he and there. You can follow me on Twitter 352 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 1: at underscore same true. Thank you, Andrew, Take care everyone peace. 353 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 1: It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 354 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,360 Speaker 3: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 355 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 3: cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 356 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:25,200 Speaker 3: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 357 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 3: You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated 358 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,920 Speaker 3: monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. 359 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:31,880 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.