WEBVTT - Behind Betrayal with ABCNews Studios 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:04.120 Hey, Betrayal fans, I have exciting news to share. Season 0:00:04.160 --> 0:00:06.920 three of Betrayal is now a docu series on Hulu. 0:00:07.320 --> 0:00:10.200 It's the gripping story of Stacy Tyler and the doctor 0:00:10.240 --> 0:00:13.320 who betrayed them. See the voices you've come to know 0:00:13.560 --> 0:00:18.120 in Betrayal Under His Eye, streaming now on Hulu. Now 0:00:18.200 --> 0:00:20.760 here's a discussion with the people who made that happen. 0:00:22.079 --> 0:00:26.440 Hey everyone, I'm back today with John Hirsch, the executive 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:29.200 producer and director of Betrayal, the docuseries. 0:00:29.880 --> 0:00:31.080 Hi, Dre, thanks so much. 0:00:31.080 --> 0:00:33.479 It's great to be back here with your audience and 0:00:33.640 --> 0:00:36.519 really excited about today's episode because we have two of 0:00:36.560 --> 0:00:40.199 our amazing colleagues from ABC News Studio here with us, 0:00:41.120 --> 0:00:45.000 Muriel Pearson and Mike Kelly. Hi, guys, but why don't 0:00:45.000 --> 0:00:47.360 you go ahead and introduce yourselves to our audience and 0:00:47.440 --> 0:00:51.160 also to the host of Betrayal, Andrea Gunning. 0:00:51.400 --> 0:00:54.280 I know, it's so nice to meet you guys. 0:00:55.600 --> 0:00:58.000 Hey, Andrea, it's nice to see you. I'm Mike Kelly, 0:00:58.040 --> 0:00:59.560 I leave the team here at ABC News. 0:00:59.440 --> 0:01:04.200 Studios, and Andrea, I'm Muriel Pearson. I'm the executive producer 0:01:04.240 --> 0:01:07.559 in the ABC News Studios. I he's been working valiantly 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:10.880 with John on this this amazing series. 0:01:11.240 --> 0:01:13.800 So yeah, thank you for all you do. I hear 0:01:13.840 --> 0:01:17.000 your names all the time. Obviously, I'm super involved in 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:20.160 the creative and like everything that goes in on the podcast, 0:01:20.800 --> 0:01:23.640 but I'm mostly on set in doing like interviews for 0:01:23.720 --> 0:01:25.760 the TV shows, so I don't get a lot of 0:01:25.760 --> 0:01:27.679 the posts and like, so I don't really get to 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:30.040 see you guys. So it's really nice to spend this time, 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:32.360 and I really am appreciative. I have a ton of 0:01:32.440 --> 0:01:35.440 questions because we've never really chatted before. If you guys 0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:37.200 don't mind, I would love to just dive in. 0:01:37.840 --> 0:01:38.560 Let's jump in. 0:01:39.200 --> 0:01:42.680 So I'm so curious. I mean, I obviously love Betrayal. 0:01:42.880 --> 0:01:44.120 I'm Betrayal all the way. 0:01:44.720 --> 0:01:45.679 But where did the. 0:01:45.640 --> 0:01:49.919 Initial idea to turn the podcast into the docu series 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:51.240 come from? Like, how did that start? 0:01:52.400 --> 0:01:54.080 Well, we have we have a small team of people 0:01:54.120 --> 0:01:57.320 focused on developing new ideas and they're like constantly scouring 0:01:57.400 --> 0:02:00.600 the marketplace for IP that resonates with audience, and so 0:02:01.000 --> 0:02:03.000 it didn't take a lot of investigating for them to 0:02:03.040 --> 0:02:05.720 find Betrayal podcasts because it was so huge out of 0:02:05.760 --> 0:02:09.400 the gate, right, big gigantic hit, and then you know 0:02:09.560 --> 0:02:13.119 around that time that our team sort of found betrayal 0:02:13.160 --> 0:02:15.680 as fans. I think the Glass team came and had 0:02:15.680 --> 0:02:19.640 a general introduction with us, and we quickly decided there's 0:02:19.680 --> 0:02:22.000 a real partnership that be had here, and so, you know, 0:02:22.440 --> 0:02:25.440 after a bunch of conversations, decided to say, yeah, let's 0:02:25.480 --> 0:02:27.680 adapt this into a television program. 0:02:28.360 --> 0:02:32.360 How do you guys know when a podcast has the 0:02:32.360 --> 0:02:35.160 potential to be a successful TV series. 0:02:36.840 --> 0:02:40.080 I think if a podcast is successful in its own right, 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:43.160 it's obvious that there's interest in the story, but not 0:02:43.240 --> 0:02:47.760 every podcast automatically lends itself to visual or television adaptation right. 0:02:47.800 --> 0:02:51.200 To be successful on TV, just like a podcast, you 0:02:51.240 --> 0:02:54.000 need an amazing story first and foremost, but you also 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:57.400 need characters that are visually compelling. You need an archive 0:02:57.480 --> 0:02:59.760 to bring the history and the background of the story 0:02:59.760 --> 0:03:02.040 to life, and if it's true crime, you need kind 0:03:02.040 --> 0:03:05.080 of the police force, the investigative team to help bring 0:03:05.080 --> 0:03:07.480 that side of the story to life too. You know, 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:10.040 sometimes people are only willing to participate in the audio 0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:12.240 format and are not willing to appear on cameras, so 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:15.120 you have to have that piece too. So it's all 0:03:15.160 --> 0:03:17.440 those different pieces have to come together to turn a 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:20.919 really successful audio story into great television. There's probably the 0:03:20.919 --> 0:03:22.400 other things that Miel or John could add. 0:03:22.520 --> 0:03:26.400 Well, I'm gonna actually speak specifically to betrayal, Drea, because 0:03:26.480 --> 0:03:31.119 there is no question that this topic we instantly recognized 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:34.680 would be have an incredible resonance with our audience. You know, 0:03:35.440 --> 0:03:37.360 a lot of the people who are in our audience. 0:03:37.400 --> 0:03:39.840 I mean, we look at the demos and it's a 0:03:39.840 --> 0:03:46.520 predominantly female audience, and this idea of trust broken, of 0:03:46.640 --> 0:03:52.000 double lives, of a betrayal of what there's the most 0:03:52.160 --> 0:03:57.000 intimate thing that you could possibly imagine, is incredibly appealing 0:03:57.080 --> 0:04:00.640 to that audience because you know, people look at these 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:04.200 stories and they try and see parallels with their own lives, 0:04:04.600 --> 0:04:07.640 and I think particularly with betrayal, and you know this 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:12.000 because of the podcast, people have resonance with this because 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:16.120 this has happened to them and the many, many women 0:04:16.680 --> 0:04:19.320 that you guys have profiled and the ones that we've 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:22.919 profiled here. I mean, the response that we get is 0:04:22.960 --> 0:04:28.200 that emotional response to how do other people respond to 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:33.240 this thing that honestly, they sometimes think they're all alone 0:04:33.279 --> 0:04:36.800 in that they alone have been betrayed and that there's 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:40.200 a kind of comfort in knowing that you're not alone 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:42.560 and to share that experience. So we knew that from 0:04:42.560 --> 0:04:45.480 the beginning with Betrayal that it would be successful. 0:04:45.680 --> 0:04:49.280 Yeah, that really speaks to the community that's developed over 0:04:49.320 --> 0:04:52.400 the last several years as betrayals become bigger and bigger, 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:54.880 and that it speaks to the type of feedback that 0:04:54.920 --> 0:04:56.919 we get both on the podcast side and on the 0:04:56.920 --> 0:05:00.160 television side from you know, listeners, from viewers who they 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:02.479 see themselves in these people. They see the parallels, and 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:05.560 that relatability obviously goes a long way, but it's also 0:05:05.680 --> 0:05:08.039 it's really refreshing, and it's it's this is one of 0:05:08.040 --> 0:05:10.760 the reasons why we love you guys as partners is 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:14.880 the understanding and and acknowledgment of the challenges of taking 0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:17.839 a podcast and turning it into a television show. That 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:21.200 willingness of participants, the archive that needs to be strong, 0:05:21.320 --> 0:05:24.640 the investigative beats that true crime fans you know, kind 0:05:24.640 --> 0:05:27.479 of want to latch into and uh, you know, having 0:05:27.560 --> 0:05:31.400 all those ingredients and to come together in something that 0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:33.919 someone will watch for three consecutive episodes. It's not an 0:05:33.960 --> 0:05:36.560 easy task, and it's been it's been a lot of fun. 0:05:36.600 --> 0:05:38.200 It's been a big challenge, but I think we've learned 0:05:38.200 --> 0:05:40.120 a lot about you know, what are what all those 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:42.440 ingredients are, and how they need to mesh together for 0:05:42.520 --> 0:05:43.880 these stories to really work. 0:05:44.760 --> 0:05:48.279 There aren't betrayals with strangers. This is a thing that's intimate, 0:05:49.120 --> 0:05:52.240 that happens between people that you love and care about, 0:05:52.320 --> 0:05:55.200 the people that are closest to you. And so when 0:05:55.200 --> 0:05:59.000 we're looking at stories for the podcast, it's about the betrayal, 0:05:59.080 --> 0:06:01.719 but it's equally about the love story. 0:06:02.000 --> 0:06:04.520 And what you guys do so well. 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:06.880 With on the TV side, and it's something that I 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:09.120 often forget and is usually the most shocking part when 0:06:09.120 --> 0:06:12.640 I'm watching it is seeing the love story unfold visually, 0:06:13.080 --> 0:06:15.000 because it's one thing to hear it. But with the 0:06:15.160 --> 0:06:18.000 archival and how you guys build, especially in season three, 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:23.680 with what Justin meant for Stacy and her life and 0:06:23.720 --> 0:06:25.800 when she was able to provide her kids and that 0:06:25.839 --> 0:06:28.679 she had made it, I mean, it was so well done. 0:06:29.240 --> 0:06:32.360 I mean, John and Matt have been real masters at 0:06:32.400 --> 0:06:36.320 creating that feeling of intimacy. In the edit, I mean, 0:06:36.360 --> 0:06:40.039 it all comes down to the beginning in the archive. 0:06:40.240 --> 0:06:42.000 I mean, I just think John, you guys have done 0:06:42.000 --> 0:06:46.200 an incredible job and just making the kind of fairy 0:06:46.240 --> 0:06:49.320 tale that we all dream of, that you want that 0:06:49.440 --> 0:06:52.320 happily ever after, that you want to find the perfect man. 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:55.720 And that's what makes the betrayal so terrible is to 0:06:55.760 --> 0:07:00.240 see these women finding in very different ways, whether it's 0:07:01.440 --> 0:07:04.560 or you know, I went through a few people, it 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:07.440 didn't work out, and here was the guy who changed 0:07:07.520 --> 0:07:12.640 my life, who made me feel great about myself. And 0:07:12.920 --> 0:07:15.960 you know, that's just that is the storyline that has 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:19.880 been so effective with this and powerful because you totally 0:07:19.920 --> 0:07:23.040 buy into that, and it's a betrayal because it's the 0:07:23.120 --> 0:07:25.880 thing that you wanted most and that you felt that 0:07:25.920 --> 0:07:28.360 you were safe. Stacy felt she was safe for the 0:07:28.400 --> 0:07:31.400 first time and she was never in more peril. 0:07:31.800 --> 0:07:33.600 One of the things we really focus on in everything 0:07:33.600 --> 0:07:35.640 that we do at ABC News Studios, but betrayal is 0:07:36.000 --> 0:07:38.200 so amblematic of that, is we want to find first 0:07:38.240 --> 0:07:39.000 person narratives. 0:07:39.080 --> 0:07:39.280 Right. 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:42.840 These are mostly women, in the case of betrayal, telling 0:07:42.880 --> 0:07:45.560 their own story from their own perspective, right, And that's 0:07:45.560 --> 0:07:48.600 what we strive in everything that we do. Like either 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:50.600 we have the victim or we have the perpetrator in 0:07:50.680 --> 0:07:52.680 first person, and hopefully we have both right, so we 0:07:52.680 --> 0:07:55.840 can tell a really nuanced, complex story. And every season 0:07:55.840 --> 0:07:57.280 the betrayal, we've been able to do that, and I 0:07:57.280 --> 0:07:58.800 think that's part of the reason why these have been 0:07:58.840 --> 0:08:00.320 so successful. 0:08:00.520 --> 0:08:03.480 Yeah, we always look at it as we want the 0:08:03.520 --> 0:08:06.120 audience to, you know, be along for the ride, the good, 0:08:06.200 --> 0:08:08.440 the good, the bad, the ugly, all those things. But 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:12.880 most importantly, we look at how we're gonna tease the turn, 0:08:13.080 --> 0:08:14.920 and then when we get to the turn, we want 0:08:14.920 --> 0:08:19.400 to make sure that the audience really is rooting for 0:08:19.520 --> 0:08:20.320 our main character. 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:22.320 And it's easy to root for Stacy when you when you. 0:08:22.320 --> 0:08:25.000 Learn about her backstory and you understand all the things 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:27.600 that she went through with her first marriage, being a 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:30.240 single mom, you know, some of the struggles that she 0:08:30.320 --> 0:08:32.600 went through, and then meeting this you know, this rising 0:08:32.960 --> 0:08:35.720 you know, star in the medical field, in justin Rutherford 0:08:35.760 --> 0:08:38.079 and and kind of you know, having that fairy tale. 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:40.160 You know, it's not that we want to just pull 0:08:40.200 --> 0:08:40.800 the rug. 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:42.880 Out from from from under the audience, but we really 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:45.000 want them to feel what Stacy felt, and in this 0:08:45.080 --> 0:08:47.920 case also what her children, Tyler and michaela fell and 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:50.880 the way that their world had grown into something you know, 0:08:50.920 --> 0:08:52.560 that they could be proud of, that they felt so 0:08:52.679 --> 0:08:53.320 great about. 0:08:53.400 --> 0:08:55.600 And then it's it makes it all that much more. 0:08:55.400 --> 0:08:58.080 Devastating when the truth starts to come out about what 0:08:58.200 --> 0:09:00.600 Justin was doing. And then obviously in this story, there 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:04.520 are multiple multiple layers to the way those terrible truths 0:09:04.679 --> 0:09:07.800 you roll out, because I mean, it's such a sinister story. 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:09.679 When when you step back and look at the whole thing, 0:09:09.679 --> 0:09:11.520 it's it's really really devastating. 0:09:12.000 --> 0:09:15.920 There isn't a single woman on this earth that can't 0:09:15.960 --> 0:09:19.160 listen to Stacy and when she's expressing an episode one, 0:09:19.240 --> 0:09:22.480 how she feels about herself and her body that doesn't relate. 0:09:22.520 --> 0:09:24.880 It doesn't matter who you are, where you're from, what. 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:25.280 You look like. 0:09:25.880 --> 0:09:29.520 That is so relatable. And I remember seeing it for 0:09:29.559 --> 0:09:31.440 the first time and just crying and you, guys, just 0:09:32.280 --> 0:09:35.160 you immediately have the audience buy in in that moment. 0:09:35.280 --> 0:09:38.600 It's like, that's the emotional access with the audience of 0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:41.880 I feel that too, and I'm connecting to Stacy. So 0:09:42.640 --> 0:09:46.520 that was incredible. Obviously, in season three, Stacy and Tyler's 0:09:46.559 --> 0:09:51.440 story has difficult themes and you usually don't see them 0:09:51.679 --> 0:09:55.520 addressed on TV. It could be taboo, some people shy 0:09:55.559 --> 0:09:59.600 away from it. What made you guys feel comfortable at 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:03.040 ABC New Studios to go forward with Stacy and Tyler's story. 0:10:03.280 --> 0:10:06.280 Were there any concerns goals that you guys had. 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:09.360 You know, there always concerns when you pull, as you say, 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:12.600 out of the out of a place where you've been before. 0:10:13.040 --> 0:10:16.600 I mean we've been we have the familiar terror A 0:10:16.679 --> 0:10:21.160 territory is just love betrayed. But I think that but 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:24.840 by being presented with a new story, that brought it 0:10:24.920 --> 0:10:29.880 so much deeper into a family's betrayal. Right, It's not 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:32.640 just between a man and a woman, It's between a 0:10:32.679 --> 0:10:36.479 woman and her son, and a step son and her stepfather. 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:40.880 We just saw that the possibility of the depths, the 0:10:40.920 --> 0:10:44.640 emotional depths of that and the exploration of what that 0:10:44.760 --> 0:10:47.800 can do to a family and on the other side 0:10:47.840 --> 0:10:51.760 of it, how a family survives. It was very interesting. 0:10:52.360 --> 0:10:54.760 And you know, I mean John and I talked about 0:10:54.760 --> 0:10:57.760 this a lot. I mean, it's story arc is one 0:10:57.840 --> 0:11:03.360 thing about just what happened. Emotional story arc is something else, 0:11:03.440 --> 0:11:06.680 and again I think that is something really unique. Drea 0:11:06.760 --> 0:11:10.360 to your podcast. It gives you an opportunity to go 0:11:10.480 --> 0:11:16.560 into an emotional storytelling story arc where you understand what 0:11:16.720 --> 0:11:20.600 the high point was, how you get to the low point, right, 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:24.480 because it's not all at once, You can't really totally 0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:28.080 believe right that this is happening to you, except that 0:11:28.120 --> 0:11:31.240 it is, and how you emerge on the other side. 0:11:31.800 --> 0:11:36.680 It's a real story of self redemption and family redemption 0:11:36.920 --> 0:11:41.840 that we found so intriguing and so important again because 0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:46.640 it is something that we think that our audience experiences universally. 0:11:46.920 --> 0:11:50.160 And we want to be sensitive and careful with victims 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:54.240 stories too, and how they want to tell their own story. 0:11:54.280 --> 0:11:56.440 As I said before, in this case, Stacy is telling 0:11:56.440 --> 0:11:58.800 from our own perspective, and Tyler is too, And I 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:01.360 think having those first person accounts in this circumstance, with 0:12:01.400 --> 0:12:03.000 these difficult stories, it is really important. 0:12:03.200 --> 0:12:03.360 Yeah. 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:06.320 I remember, Andrea, a conversation that you and I had 0:12:06.400 --> 0:12:09.400 before you even went into production on the podcast of 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:12.839 season three of just how to get into the very 0:12:12.880 --> 0:12:16.080 difficult nature of this topic and so kind of when 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:18.760 and how to reveal certain aspects of it because you 0:12:18.920 --> 0:12:21.800 have so many layers to it. As I mentioned, I 0:12:21.840 --> 0:12:25.760 just remember feeling like, yes, these are challenges, but they're 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:29.360 also opportunities because you don't see these types of stories 0:12:29.720 --> 0:12:33.200 on television very often. And when I started, when you 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:35.800 shared with me some of the facts and figures of 0:12:36.120 --> 0:12:38.400 people who've been through what Tyler went through, and how 0:12:38.480 --> 0:12:41.240 much more common it is than any of us would 0:12:41.240 --> 0:12:43.839 ever think, I you know, it started to become a 0:12:43.840 --> 0:12:45.880 little less scary and a little less daunting of how 0:12:45.880 --> 0:12:47.840 we would do this. And then I think the growth 0:12:47.840 --> 0:12:50.200 that Tyler has shown, even from you know, the early 0:12:50.280 --> 0:12:51.240 days of production on. 0:12:51.200 --> 0:12:53.080 The podcast to where he is now. 0:12:53.400 --> 0:12:55.040 And I think for people who tune into the podcast 0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:57.040 and then watch the show, they're going to see this kid, 0:12:57.080 --> 0:12:59.520 you know, nineteen twenty years old now who is just 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:02.959 so incredibly strong and has shown so much resilience. And 0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:04.920 it's a credit to his mom, it's a credit to 0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:08.079 his entire family. But it's really unique to see someone 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:10.640 who's been through what he's been through and under the 0:13:10.679 --> 0:13:14.600 stress and the pressure and the emotional turmoil that he's 0:13:14.600 --> 0:13:16.920 been through, to come out and be as strong as 0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:19.760 resilient as he is now. It almost like it flipped 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:21.880 in my mind from being like, oh man, this is scary. 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:23.840 This is going to be hard to tell to. You 0:13:23.880 --> 0:13:26.360 know what, let's lean into our strengths here. We've got 0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:29.360 an incredibly strong character here. 0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:32.640 I'm curious what you guys are seeing on your side 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:37.400 about the audience. Do you feel like the audience is changing? 0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:40.840 Are they becoming more empathetic? Are they becoming more open 0:13:41.400 --> 0:13:43.040 to discussing tougher topics? 0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:43.720 You know? 0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:46.320 You know, obviously this season involves a story that is 0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:51.600 makes some people recoils. And as a producer, I leaned in. 0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:55.880 You guys leaned in. You know, are you seeing a 0:13:55.960 --> 0:14:00.000 change and you know the weather here with audience's appetite 0:14:00.160 --> 0:14:01.920 for stories. 0:14:01.480 --> 0:14:04.280 Like these, we definitely see it. And in my other 0:14:04.400 --> 0:14:07.280 life before I was with ABC News Studios, I was 0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:10.240 with twenty twenty, so I was deeply into the true 0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:13.800 crime world. And here's what's interesting, I would say, I mean, 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:16.320 you could only almost chart it to within the last 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:21.360 five years, maybe a little bit more. People really were 0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:27.640 less interested in the straight storyline and more interested in 0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:32.080 the emotional experience. They really did not like the way 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:34.560 that there was a much more old fashioned or however 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:37.080 you're going to term it, way of looking at the 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:41.160 victim as the victim, right, and that it was a 0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:44.400 story about the perpetrator, that it was a story about 0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:46.560 the how done it? Who done it? You know, how 0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:51.520 was he caught? But that journey of the person you know, 0:14:51.760 --> 0:14:54.680 who was who for home all these terrible things were perpetrated, 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:58.560 that was not something that was front and center until 0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:03.400 somewhat more recently. I mean with stories like Gilgo Beach right, 0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:08.880 and that kind of story has kind of risen in 0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:15.440 popularity because it offers a different bandwidth than just crime. 0:15:16.040 --> 0:15:21.440 It gives it more complexity because you are exploring again, 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:24.440 an emotional journey, and I think it's fascinating. I think 0:15:24.440 --> 0:15:28.800 it's partially actually an age thing. I think younger viewers 0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:33.560 have more interest in a different kind of storytelling, and 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:36.600 maybe it's made all of us better storytellers. 0:15:37.440 --> 0:15:39.560 I love the shift that we're in the middle of 0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:42.320 right now because having a big a veteran of true crime, 0:15:42.520 --> 0:15:46.520 it used to be investigative beats, investigative beats, investigative beats, 0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:49.000 and that's if you didn't have enough of those, and 0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:51.760 if they weren't deep enough, and if they didn't drive 0:15:51.880 --> 0:15:55.240 the entire narrative, then there was sort of a shying 0:15:55.280 --> 0:15:56.600 away from those types of stories. 0:15:56.600 --> 0:15:57.960 But I think, Mike, I think you hit the nail 0:15:58.000 --> 0:15:58.360 on the head. 0:15:58.360 --> 0:16:01.640 It's about great first per storytelling, and we've talked about 0:16:01.680 --> 0:16:04.680 the intimacy. We've talked about being along for that ride, 0:16:04.800 --> 0:16:06.400 and I think, if you've got a great story, and 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:08.960 you've got a great storyteller, and you've got all these 0:16:09.000 --> 0:16:13.000 other elements we've talked to, the investigative beats of how 0:16:13.160 --> 0:16:17.320 the legal side of it unfolded, almost become way less important. 0:16:17.800 --> 0:16:20.480 I mean, they do become way less important, and certainly. 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:22.760 They have been in the first three seasons of Betrayal, 0:16:23.000 --> 0:16:26.760 and as a producer it's been really fun and refreshing 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:31.080 to work that way and not be constantly thinking about, Okay, 0:16:31.120 --> 0:16:34.320 do we have X number of investigative beats per act? 0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:37.840 Like has been the directive for so long in true crime, 0:16:37.920 --> 0:16:40.800 and it's frankly, I think it's a little tired. And 0:16:41.040 --> 0:16:43.680 I think, yes, the audience is getting younger, but they're 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:46.520 also getting more open minded to being in these more 0:16:46.560 --> 0:16:49.720 intimate spaces as opposed to just like, let's follow good 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:50.320 police work. 0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:52.800 I mean, in Betrayal, you know this better than Anyonerea, 0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:55.400 because you have talked to them this. You talk about 0:16:55.400 --> 0:16:57.440 the love story, but there's a love story going on 0:16:57.480 --> 0:17:00.800 between Tyler and his mother. I mean, there's a totally 0:17:00.880 --> 0:17:06.000 different aspect of it right where he makes choices that 0:17:06.080 --> 0:17:09.560 he might not have made for her, and she feels 0:17:09.760 --> 0:17:12.440 what she feels because of what where she's put him. 0:17:13.000 --> 0:17:16.040 And how they work that out together because they love 0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:20.679 each other is something kind of phenomenally amazing and human. 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:24.960 He deeply loves his mother and he loves his family 0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:28.160 as a family guy. And he would have I mean, 0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:30.679 he says it himself, he would have gone to the 0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:34.800 grave with this information because he didn't want her to lose. 0:17:34.600 --> 0:17:35.480 What she lost. 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:39.760 That's how much. That's how much he loved her, you know. 0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:43.080 And a huge part of our show is not just 0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:47.480 showing these people's wounded parts the victim, right, It's about 0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:50.160 showing them as fully formed human beings and the love 0:17:50.200 --> 0:17:52.960 there that's in the family and they love that existed there. 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:56.640 I'm interested to ask you, guys. I mean, I think 0:17:56.680 --> 0:17:58.400 I just I spoke to it a little while ago 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:02.000 about I have my answer, But how did the visual 0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:05.359 aspect of TV open up this story for you guys 0:18:05.400 --> 0:18:05.960 even more? 0:18:06.760 --> 0:18:07.080 Wow? 0:18:07.119 --> 0:18:09.520 That is so complicated because I was actually going to 0:18:09.600 --> 0:18:12.359 ask you another question, which is like, because some of 0:18:12.359 --> 0:18:15.919 these stories have been on podcasts, you know, in your mind, 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:19.280 you start thinking, oh, this person must look like this. 0:18:19.920 --> 0:18:21.720 And I was just talking to my mom about that 0:18:21.840 --> 0:18:26.000 this morning, like literally she was like blown away. Yeah, 0:18:26.000 --> 0:18:26.439 but I may. 0:18:26.720 --> 0:18:29.639 I mean, I'm like curious because they have created this 0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:34.159 physical ethos around these people which may be quite different. 0:18:34.200 --> 0:18:37.240 They may not be brunette, they may not be you know, 0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:41.080 whatever it is. But I think it's fascinating. 0:18:41.800 --> 0:18:44.320 But I don't know. 0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:48.680 I mean, I I think that however they they look 0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:52.000 and and sometimes I think that people lose a little 0:18:52.040 --> 0:18:55.399 bit by seeing too much, right, But in this case, 0:18:56.000 --> 0:18:59.719 the person, the people that they were, the personalities they 0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:03.440 were kind of let all of that once you're introduced 0:19:03.440 --> 0:19:07.120 to it fall by the wayside, right, And. 0:19:07.080 --> 0:19:10.840 I think there's a magic in like converting the audio 0:19:11.040 --> 0:19:13.200 and as an audience member, it's just in your imagination, 0:19:13.359 --> 0:19:15.600 right what these people look like. To then see them 0:19:15.720 --> 0:19:18.840 for real. These are real people experiencing real emotions, and 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:22.280 like it's just a different kind of empathy. I think 0:19:22.320 --> 0:19:26.320 that the audience has for these characters, and when something 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:28.680 works in both mediums. It's just an absolute home run, 0:19:28.760 --> 0:19:30.879 I think to be able to get it right in 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:32.480 both on both platforms. 0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:36.159 You know, one note about the television part of it, 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:39.240 John and I, John, you really have been the most 0:19:39.280 --> 0:19:43.280 amazing partner. I mean we have had many nerdy conversations 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:47.639 about you know, the technique, the technique of it, the 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:51.000 television technique of it, and you know, there are many 0:19:51.040 --> 0:19:53.200 ways that you could approach this, but I think John 0:19:53.240 --> 0:19:57.360 and I really came to a center of wanting the 0:19:57.400 --> 0:20:02.320 recreation to be as real stick as possible, which meant 0:20:02.840 --> 0:20:07.359 simple things like, you know, using natural light, letting the 0:20:07.400 --> 0:20:11.200 cameras move more like the eye would take you rather 0:20:11.560 --> 0:20:15.320 than you know, setting the cameras on pedestals, and having 0:20:15.359 --> 0:20:18.879 this more stately lit feel. I mean, we really wanted 0:20:18.880 --> 0:20:23.520 to match the rawness of the emotions with something that 0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:27.320 would visually match with that, and we talked a lot 0:20:27.359 --> 0:20:30.439 about it. We really did, and John was sending me, 0:20:30.760 --> 0:20:32.959 you know, samples while he was in the field. I 0:20:33.000 --> 0:20:34.600 just thought it was great. I mean, it was a 0:20:34.640 --> 0:20:40.440 wonderful collaboration and developing that look for it. Well. 0:20:40.480 --> 0:20:44.520 I appreciate the sort of that little extra push that 0:20:44.600 --> 0:20:47.240 you guys gave us. I think in the first two seasons, 0:20:47.280 --> 0:20:50.080 we were with the Recreations a little bit more in 0:20:50.160 --> 0:20:54.240 that dream like space where it felt it didn't felt 0:20:54.280 --> 0:20:57.119 necessarily as raw or as real, and I think adding 0:20:57.160 --> 0:20:59.960 in a lot more handheld camera movement and just sort 0:20:59.960 --> 0:21:02.000