1 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:11,159 Speaker 1: It would be like the same few loops over and 2 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: over again, and there was a real like lack of 3 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: dynamism to them, but there's something kind of robotic about it. 4 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:22,279 Speaker 2: Kieran press Reynolds is a columnist for Pitchfork. But while back, 5 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 2: he wrote an article about how AI is taking over 6 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:28,840 Speaker 2: a specific genre of music, low fi beats. 7 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: And theious videos were like hours long, and they'd either 8 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: have no song titles in the description, which is a 9 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: big red flag, or they would have timestamps with songs 10 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: the titles that were just saying nothing like they would 11 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: all be sort of like just seeming like generated nonsense. 12 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:47,199 Speaker 1: So there are all these kind of clues that this 13 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 1: music something fishy is going on. 14 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 2: You might not know lo fi by name, but you've 15 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:56,640 Speaker 2: probably heard of before. It's usually part of these long 16 00:00:56,720 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 2: mixes on YouTube or Spotify. It's just kind of muffled 17 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 2: instrumental hip hop. It's inoffensive, it's calming. It kind of 18 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:06,960 Speaker 2: sounds like you could play it in a coffee shop. 19 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 2: It kind of sounds like this, to be real with you, 20 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 2: low fi is not my favorite genre. I have a 21 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 2: love hate relationship with it at best. To me, a 22 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 2: lot of it's repetitive, it doesn't go anywhere, and a 23 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:36,760 Speaker 2: lot of it just sounds the same, which would make 24 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 2: it a perfect target for AI. And the hardcore fans 25 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:42,040 Speaker 2: are starting to freak. 26 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: Out, and I went to the Reddit page. More and 27 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 1: more people were posting like, what is this channel? This 28 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 1: looks sort of dodgy, and other people were like, oh 29 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 1: my god, the genre has become overrun. A lot of 30 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 1: these people really love the genre. But even they who 31 00:01:57,080 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 1: were like PhDs in the genre, they couldn't discern some 32 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:01,919 Speaker 1: of this stuff. They were like, I have no idea 33 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 1: if it's a I like, the genre has been overrun 34 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:08,919 Speaker 1: and now it's everywhere. A lot of people have almost 35 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 1: just given up. They've because they're the genre just like 36 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 1: a wasteland, Like it's over. 37 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 2: Maybe this doesn't sound like a big deal to you, 38 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 2: because maybe you don't listen to low fi. But what 39 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 2: if this is just a preview of what happens when 40 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 2: the robots come for your favorite genre. From Kaleidoscope and 41 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 2: iHeart Podcasts, this is kill Switch. I'm Dexter Thomas, So 42 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 2: we're here to talk about lo fi hip hop? What 43 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 2: first got you into lo fi? 44 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 1: I used to be really big on YouTube, and it 45 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 1: probably just like ambiently appeared on my feet or the 46 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: algorithm gave it to me. It was targeted for you 47 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 1: to like to study two to play video games too, 48 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:04,919 Speaker 1: and it really grabbed me like a decade ago when 49 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 1: I heard it. 50 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 2: So would you call yourself a low five fan? Then? 51 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 1: I was definitely not like in the community back in 52 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: the day, but I was definitely into it, and I 53 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:17,959 Speaker 1: had like some of my favorite artists in the scene. 54 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 2: If you were to explain lo fi to somebody, how 55 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:25,920 Speaker 2: do you explain it to them? 56 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: The name lo fi itself predates all these beats, and 57 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 1: it comes from like lo fi. I think it was 58 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: used to describe kind of the the more dirty, disheveled, 59 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 1: grainy quality esque rock music from the nineties, like Pavement, 60 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 1: Guide by Voices. 61 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 2: What counted as lo fi back then is kind of 62 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 2: hard to pin down because at first it really described 63 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 2: an approach more than a genre, like using cheap recording 64 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 2: equipment which would give you this more deliberately homemade and 65 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 2: intimate sound. 66 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 1: And then people started to attach it to this kind 67 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: of beat style that you could say was pioneered by 68 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 1: like Jadela and like New Javass all. 69 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 2: Right, Just to be clear, neither I nor Kieran are 70 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 2: classifying jay Dilla as Lofi now New Javis retroactively. You 71 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 2: can make a case with that. So Nujabs was a 72 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 2: Japanese beat maker who's probably best known internationally for doing 73 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 2: the music for an anime called Samurai Champlu in the 74 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 2: early two thousands. It had this iconic theme song, and 75 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 2: some of the earliest beat makers who called themselves Lofi 76 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:43,480 Speaker 2: were clearly imitating this Jay Dilla slash New Jobs style 77 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:47,360 Speaker 2: and coming up with something that Kaen had that vibe, 78 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 2: and that led into something else. 79 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 1: This sort of like jazzy jazz hop but still very 80 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 1: like technically intricate style of beat making that was almost 81 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 1: like it was like a hip hop beat that you 82 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:05,920 Speaker 1: didn't need a vocalist for because it was so pleasurable 83 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:08,719 Speaker 1: on its own. People have added all these different ingredients 84 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:10,479 Speaker 1: on top, so when people say low fi beats, it 85 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:15,279 Speaker 1: can really be anything from like jazzy piano led beats 86 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: to like bossa Nova to even people integrating like kroud rock. 87 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: All these different elements kind of feels like there's an 88 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: intimacy to it, like you're hearing somebody practice their drums, 89 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 1: like on the side of the road without an audience. 90 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 1: It feels kind of like you're just chilling with somebody 91 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 1: and the steaks aren't super high, and that feels comforting 92 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:37,799 Speaker 1: in a way. 93 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 2: When did lo fi get popular online? 94 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: I would say around the early to mid twenty tens 95 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: is when there was a boom of YouTube mixes and 96 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: you started to see it on like SoundCloud, a lot 97 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: of people tagging it like hashtag lo fi, and then 98 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 1: it got really popular. I think when YouTube added it's 99 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:05,679 Speaker 1: like live stream function, which enabled channels to do twenty 100 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:09,559 Speaker 1: four hour broadcasts as if they were like digital radio 101 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:12,280 Speaker 1: stations that you could tune into from wherever. One of 102 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 1: the main accounts called low fi Girl, would compile like 103 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 1: every low fi be in existence and just set it 104 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:20,119 Speaker 1: on an endless loop. You could click on it whenever 105 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: you want. It'd be a constantly running chat of people 106 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 1: who'd be like, it's seven a even in Tokyo, what's up? 107 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 1: And they'd be talking em and be like doing their 108 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 1: work and just hanging out in this little like weird 109 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 1: third space. 110 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 2: If you're into low fi music, I can almost one 111 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 2: hundred percent guarantee you that you've heard of Lo Fi Girl. 112 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 2: So Low Fi Girl is this YouTube channel that started 113 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 2: in twenty seventeen and they would do these twenty four 114 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 2: to seven live streams of lo fi music. At one 115 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 2: point it had gone for over thirteen thousand hours straight 116 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 2: when YouTube suddenly without warning, pulled the stream, just deleted 117 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 2: it out of nowhere. People got really really mad, and 118 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 2: YouTube actually apologized and put it back online. Low Fi 119 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 2: Girl now has over fifteen million subscribers. Because I remember 120 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 2: the Lo Fi Girl, right. 121 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 1: The anime looking girl studying, Yeah, explain that to me, 122 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 1: so I think, to me, it always felt like it 123 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 1: came out of like af fixation with Hyamiyazaki in the 124 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 1: studio Ghibli like aesthetics online because that's like of perennially 125 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 1: popular on like Pinterest and TikTok edits. So it was 126 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 1: like sort of in that style, this just like woman 127 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 1: who looked vaguely Asian, vaguely from an anime, just like 128 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: a gift of her would be studying with like kind 129 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: of a city scape night in the background. It looked 130 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 1: very intimate and it have a real coziness to it, 131 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: like it felt like you were the rain was outside, 132 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 1: You're inside of their hot chocolate doing like your English homework, 133 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: and so that kind of just popped out of nowhere 134 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 1: with this this whole sort of like built in aesthetic 135 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 1: and they call it the Low Fi Girl, And since 136 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: then that account has become like a label where they 137 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 1: house low fi musicians and they're still going today. But 138 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: it became this massive phenomenon that was like the at 139 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 1: the center of the online lo fi craze, and then 140 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 1: from there spawned this entire genre of copycasts and clones 141 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 1: that gradually watered down the sound and just made it 142 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: this like lowest common denominator background thing. I think that's 143 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: like another one of the negative implications of the flattening 144 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 1: of the scene, where it's like you lose the context 145 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 1: and the origins and all these innovators and like the 146 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 1: real beat makers, you know, they think that they care 147 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 1: about Japan, or they fantasize about Japan, but it's like 148 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 1: they don't actually know, Like the labels that people are 149 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: part of. 150 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:42,199 Speaker 2: This Japan fantasy context is part of what makes LOFI 151 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 2: so fascinating to me. It's all tied to this idea 152 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 2: of Japan. Even if the actual Japanese hip hop scene 153 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 2: didn't have a whole lot to do with it. In 154 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 2: twenty eighteen, an earlier version of the Low Fi Grilt 155 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 2: channel was so popular that it had gotten mentioned in 156 00:08:56,520 --> 00:09:00,199 Speaker 2: the New York Times. That same year, in Tokyo, Dio 157 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 2: show hosted by a rapper named Hutamata, did a whole 158 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 2: segment on Lofi hip hop. Utumata is one of the 159 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 2: godfathers of Japanese hip hop. This dude's dropped like a 160 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 2: dozen albums, He's written magazine columns about hip hop culture, 161 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 2: He's written books about hip hop. This guy is a 162 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 2: Japanese rap legend going at least back to the early nineties. 163 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 2: And he had to have someone else come on the 164 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:26,199 Speaker 2: show to explain Lofi to him because he had zero 165 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:28,840 Speaker 2: idea of what Lofi was. And aside from that one 166 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 2: beat maker new Jobs, he seemed kind of confused that 167 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 2: people were associating it with Japan. This to me is 168 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:39,320 Speaker 2: just hilarious. I mean, imagine that there's a bunch of 169 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 2: people online listening to this particular micro genre of instrumental 170 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 2: hip hop, and in the comments, it's all people saying, yeah, man, 171 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 2: this sounds just like la This makes me think of 172 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 2: being in Los Angeles. You know, Cadillac with the top 173 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 2: down in Los Angeles, and then all of a sudden, 174 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 2: Doctor Dre gets online, finds it and says, Yo, what 175 00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 2: even is this? What are you guys doing? This kind 176 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 2: of genre where the people talking to each other and 177 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 2: imagining stuff is almost more important than the music itself. 178 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 2: It could probably only exist online and specifically on YouTube, but. 179 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: That kind of gives it like this pseudo physical element 180 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 1: of being in a third space going along with this 181 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:22,200 Speaker 1: like imagining of asia thing. It's like they talk about 182 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 1: how this video makes them feel like they're in an anime, 183 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: or they feel like they're in this movie or something. 184 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 2: The fact that YouTube introduced the live streaming aspect really 185 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 2: meant that you could spend your whole day on YouTube 186 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 2: totally in a way that you couldn't before. 187 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 1: But I think also there's like the elements of YouTube's 188 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 1: algorithm incentives where longer things would get prioritized because they 189 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:49,320 Speaker 1: wanted to spend more time on it, right, so these 190 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 1: longer mixes would be brought to the front of the queue. 191 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:56,200 Speaker 2: This, I think is another defining aspect of lo fi. 192 00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 2: It's a genre that fits two needs. For you Tube Tube, 193 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 2: it fits their need of keeping you on the platform 194 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 2: as long as possible to show you ads. And for 195 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 2: the listener who just needs something playing in the background 196 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 2: while you work or you study, they got your needs covered. 197 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 2: But the third party, the people who make the music, 198 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:18,840 Speaker 2: they're not that relevant here the average person who listens 199 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 2: to lo fi. Do you think they could name five 200 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 2: lo fi artists? 201 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 1: If the average is somebody who only listens to mixes 202 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:28,840 Speaker 1: on YouTube, definitely not. They could maybe name a couple 203 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:30,880 Speaker 1: of the YouTube channels. But I think there is really 204 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 1: like a sort of gradations of fandom, and I think 205 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 1: there are a lot of people who like use the 206 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: Reddit and are part of like producer collectives, and they, 207 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 1: you know, of course, could name a lot. Yeah, But 208 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:42,200 Speaker 1: I think, yeah, there's kind of like two sides of 209 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 1: the lo fi listener. 210 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 2: So tell me about that, because one thing I wasn't 211 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:51,080 Speaker 2: really aware of that much is a community aspect of it. 212 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 2: What's the lo fi community? 213 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 1: Like, I honestly wasn't even tapped in either until I 214 00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:00,040 Speaker 1: started writing this piece. But after I talked to a 215 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 1: bunch of artists. I talked to this artist Mia Eden, 216 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 1: who performs under the name Rosia. She told me that 217 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 1: she was part of these compilations that were dedicated to 218 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 1: supporting women beat makers. This one guy named Alex Reid, 219 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:18,439 Speaker 1: who performs under the name Project Aer, told me that 220 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: he was part of this discord page that had just 221 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:23,719 Speaker 1: like a ton of big name low fi producer in there, 222 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: and they would like talk about their lives, they would 223 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 1: play video games together. They're bonding over a love for 224 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: this music. 225 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 2: It's interesting that there can be a community around a 226 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 2: genre in which a lot of people don't actually know 227 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 2: the artists. Because say whatever you want about top forty 228 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 2: pop music, people don't just say I like pop music. 229 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 2: They know who Taylor Swift is, they could give you 230 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 2: a few names, right. But LOFI is interesting, as you 231 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 2: were saying, it's almost the idea of going and being 232 00:12:57,679 --> 00:12:59,319 Speaker 2: in a room with a bunch of other people is 233 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 2: almost antithetical to the very idea of lo fi totally, 234 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 2: because the idea is to be isolated by yourself at 235 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:09,559 Speaker 2: the desk with some hot chocolate in a blanket. 236 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 1: And I think there's a lot of ways it feels 237 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: like maybe the first algorithmic genre, like just completely formed 238 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 1: in this like void and designed to be like it's 239 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 1: like efficiency music in a way efficiency music. 240 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, It's like how at the office they give you coffee, 241 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 2: not because they like you, right, but they give you 242 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 2: coffee so you'll work harder. 243 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:35,960 Speaker 1: It's very utilitarian in that sense. I think the community 244 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: aspect is really only with the specific artists that love 245 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 1: this the sound and in some way, like I want 246 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 1: to shape it in a positive way. I think, you know, 247 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 1: probably the vast sepe of fans are more of this 248 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:50,560 Speaker 1: just they don't really care what it is. They just 249 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 1: put it on because it's providing this basic function. 250 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 2: Lo fi might seem faceless now, but the original point 251 00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 2: was that it felt human and there were humans making it. 252 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 2: In the twenty tens, when the scene really started coming together, 253 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 2: there were big producers like ev and Potzu, and it's 254 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:09,200 Speaker 2: gotten bigger. Low Fi Girl has evolved to have its 255 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 2: own record label. So how much money were people making 256 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:15,559 Speaker 2: on this? Let's talk before AI. 257 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 1: Before AI, people were making a good amount of money. 258 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 1: This woman mia Eden said she was making between the 259 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 1: five hundred to fifty hundred dollars a month and this 260 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 1: was like for her at the time, like enough to 261 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 1: kind of live off of. And other people were making 262 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 1: thousands of dollars they were getting like millions of streams 263 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 1: a month, a decent amount of money, like enough to 264 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 1: basically be either a full time job or a part 265 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 1: time job. 266 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 2: But that's before AI and things are starting to change. 267 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 2: We'll get into that after the break. You were already 268 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 2: listening to Low five. What are you a fan of it? 269 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 2: And then when did you start noticing AI creeping into it? 270 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 1: I think a couple of years ago is when I 271 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 1: saw Ai Lo Fi for the first time, and I 272 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: think it was I partly was researching it because I 273 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 1: knew that these things were starting. There was the Drake 274 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 1: Weekend AI song. There are all these albums that were 275 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 1: like imitating Playboy Carti's voice with AI, and so I 276 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 1: was like, you know, I wonder what scenes impacting. And 277 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: I immediately was like Lo Fi already has such a 278 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: low barrier to entry, like this would be very easy 279 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 1: prey for AI, and so I started looking. It's probably 280 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, and they were definitely creeping up then, 281 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 1: and it was sort of hard to tell it first 282 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: because they wouldn't say that they were AI and YouTube 283 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: only as this sort of optional disclosure thing where you 284 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: don't need to say that your video is AI, so 285 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 1: a lot of them just wouldn't. 286 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 2: Even if a track wasn't explicitly labeled as AI. You 287 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 2: used to be able to tell the pianos might sound 288 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 2: a little wonky, the drums would be a little off. 289 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 2: But the models are getting better and it's sounding more 290 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 2: and more just like lo Fi. It's getting a lot 291 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 2: harder to tell. Like, for example, this track that you've 292 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 2: been hearing behind me, this one was generated by AI. 293 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 1: I think it shows that people are using it in 294 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 1: insidious ways. I think as AI technology improved, it's only 295 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 1: going to get more difficult. I think if you type 296 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 1: in lo fi beats now, like because of their like 297 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 1: Seo legacy, you'll still get lo fi girl who they 298 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: told me they don't use AI for the music, so 299 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 1: you'll get some like real authentic creators. But then if 300 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 1: you go down, especially after first three or four, it 301 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 1: is like all AI, Like it's all stuff in the 302 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 1: last nine months, like these three hour mixes that kind 303 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 1: of like imagine you're in Japan, or it'll have like 304 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 1: kind of like framed paintings almost like the fit like 305 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 1: a Mac to Marco album or something. And I think 306 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 1: that is tricking a lot of people. 307 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 2: Now, man, you know, I'm just even looking at this 308 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:12,119 Speaker 2: right now, I'm looking at videos on YouTube with tutorials, 309 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 2: and this one is called create Monetizable low Fi Music 310 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 2: Videos using AI for free and minutes. Hold on, let 311 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:24,919 Speaker 2: me click on this first one. This one has seventy 312 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 2: two thousand views. 313 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 1: God dang. 314 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 2: So there is a market for people who were realizing, 315 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:36,200 Speaker 2: wait a second, I can make fake music and make 316 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 2: money off of it. 317 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 1: Actually, that's very funny. Earlier today also I saw this 318 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:43,879 Speaker 1: account that his name is bitcoin Nation and has like 319 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:47,160 Speaker 1: over a million subscribers on YouTube, and I think it's 320 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 1: ostensibly I think it was created to pedal bitcoin. But 321 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 1: now they've joined the AI low fi scene and they're 322 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 1: spamming hours long mixes. It's basically just become like it's 323 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 1: like a meta people don't even care about music, just 324 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 1: anybody who wants to get rich quick. It's become a 325 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 1: new get rich quick scheme online for a lot of people, 326 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 1: I think, to just it just seem AI. They're like, Okay, 327 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:09,879 Speaker 1: maybe we can try this out. See if I go 328 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:10,479 Speaker 1: viral with that. 329 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 2: Even the United States government has gotten into lo fi. 330 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 2: The White House put out a video called One Big 331 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:21,239 Speaker 2: Beautiful Bill Lo Fi Maga video to Relax Slash study too. 332 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:24,919 Speaker 2: That's the full title, and it's about twelve hours of 333 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 2: this AI looking Donald Trump sitting at his desk signing stuff, 334 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:33,639 Speaker 2: waving a flag, making McDonald's French fries while part of 335 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 2: the text of the Big Beautiful Bill scrolls on the 336 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 2: side and lo fi music plays in the background. It's 337 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 2: on white House dot gov right now, but there aren't 338 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 2: any artist credits. I can't say definitively that all of 339 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:51,920 Speaker 2: this stuff is AI. But remember, people like this stuff. 340 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 2: They liked it. It felt homemade and human, and AI 341 00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 2: is making it easy for anyone to just crank this 342 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 2: stuff out out for whatever purpose, and that's kind of 343 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:06,719 Speaker 2: bothering people. How is the community responding to all of this. 344 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 1: They're responding as well as you could. I think the 345 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 1: community on Reddit, it's not super huge, but they're all 346 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 1: pretty upset. A lot of them have just quit the. 347 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 2: Genre, entirely quit the genre. 348 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, they've said, I can't listen to this anymore. I 349 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:23,440 Speaker 1: don't know what's real and what's fake. 350 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:24,360 Speaker 2: Wow. 351 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,680 Speaker 1: And it's discouraged them. And I think the musicians themselves also, 352 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:30,640 Speaker 1: like these people who it was their livelihood before. They 353 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 1: have since lost all that money because their streams have dropped. 354 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 1: One of the guys went from like two million streams 355 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 1: to four hundred thousand. It's interesting because they're very discouraged 356 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 1: and dispirited, but there's also like this sort of counter 357 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 1: like war being waged. Like a lot of them now 358 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 1: in their descriptions or in their titles, they'll write no 359 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:55,879 Speaker 1: AI or AI free. So they're trying to cultivate an 360 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 1: audience of people who will only seek out the real stuff. 361 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 1: But I think the large like thoughts right now is 362 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:04,119 Speaker 1: that it's it's pretty bleak for people who have loved 363 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 1: this scene. 364 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:11,359 Speaker 2: So I did an episode Onvtubersvtubing is an interesting community 365 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:14,680 Speaker 2: because it's also something where you would think that AI 366 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 2: could encroach pretty quickly on, and I still think they 367 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 2: frankly speaking, got to target on their backs. But one 368 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:27,680 Speaker 2: thing is thatvtuber fans, especially with the music. I can't 369 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:29,879 Speaker 2: say everybody, but a lot of prominent people seem to 370 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:33,879 Speaker 2: be really anti AI, which is interesting, right because the 371 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:37,719 Speaker 2: characters themselves, the models are not real people. 372 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:38,679 Speaker 1: Right. 373 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 2: There's a bunch of anime girls and they're both anime girls, right. 374 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 2: The lo Fi girl, anime girl, a lot of the 375 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:49,879 Speaker 2: avatars for v tubers anime girls. But VTuber fans seem 376 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:54,919 Speaker 2: to be fighting against the AI on slot and it 377 00:20:55,000 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 2: seems to be successful so far. Lo Fi don't know, man, 378 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 2: I'm not the war. I don't know what the war 379 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 2: looks like. But the war isn't looking good. 380 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 1: I think maybe the difference is like in the youtubing world, 381 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 1: there's like such a massive parasocial thing right where it's 382 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 1: instead of watching like Destiny or like any Fantano, your 383 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:20,879 Speaker 1: goat is like this anime Avatar or something, so you 384 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:23,639 Speaker 1: feel like the AI is an encroachment on that. But 385 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 1: maybe in the lo fi music sphere, it's like the 386 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,639 Speaker 1: opposite of parasocial. It's like people have a very anti 387 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:32,680 Speaker 1: social relationship with the music because they don't know who's 388 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:34,639 Speaker 1: making it. They don't really care about the scene. For 389 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:37,160 Speaker 1: the most part, they're just like being fatted on YouTube. 390 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 1: I think if you told any Lofi fans, some say 391 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,200 Speaker 1: I they would be repulsed by it. But I think 392 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,480 Speaker 1: a lot of people they just don't even care enough 393 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 1: to check. 394 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:48,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, because I guess if you're thinking about something as 395 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 2: background music, you're not necessarily thinking about that. There was 396 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 2: a person who made it. It's a vibe essentially exactly, 397 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:01,360 Speaker 2: speaking of which you actually spoke to to somebody who 398 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 2: makes AI low five, tell me about that. How did 399 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 2: you even get somebody to talk about this? 400 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 1: I was pretty surprised. A lot of them don't have emails, 401 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 1: but some of them do have emails on their YouTube account. 402 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:15,200 Speaker 1: So I just emailed every single one and one of 403 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,119 Speaker 1: them got back to me, and I asked him a 404 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 1: bunch of questions and then I asked him some more 405 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 1: invasive ones after and he didn't reply at all. But 406 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: initially he was like this that isn't as good, but 407 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 1: it can approximate what real lo fi sounds like, and 408 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,159 Speaker 1: used it for everything, used it for visuals, for text, 409 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,479 Speaker 1: for the music itself. This person actually they owned I 410 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:40,719 Speaker 1: think like five or six separate accounts, but they had 411 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 1: this one account that had a lot of views that 412 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 1: was specifically low fi themed because they had like a 413 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:48,440 Speaker 1: sleep noise channel. They had all these like different like niches. 414 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 2: Wait, they had sleep noise channels also. This is interesting. 415 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 2: So basically, just anything that will optimize for somebody turning 416 00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:59,719 Speaker 2: this on and leaving this on for a few hours 417 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:01,360 Speaker 2: so you can get YouTube. 418 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:05,440 Speaker 1: Ad revenue exactly. Yeah, they might do like rain sounds 419 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:09,400 Speaker 1: also just like anything like the OLM, like meditation, thing 420 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:13,120 Speaker 1: like yoga music, anything that you can just loop endlessly. 421 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 2: Tell me this the listeners. Do you think listeners care 422 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:23,359 Speaker 2: if lo fi is AI generated? 423 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 1: I think it really goes back to depending on what 424 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:29,439 Speaker 1: you use it for. There are a lot of people 425 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 1: who I'm sure a lot of tech workers listen to 426 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:36,200 Speaker 1: Lofi beats while they're grinding on their code, and I'm 427 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 1: sure a lot of them love AI and they probably 428 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 1: think it's really cool that AI can approximate this sound 429 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:47,440 Speaker 1: and power them through their workdays. But I hope that 430 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: there are a lot of people who when they find 431 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 1: out that AI would be propelled or be like, oh, 432 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 1: that's weird and uncanny. It's my hope that if they're 433 00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 1: putting on AI stuff, they're just not aware of it. 434 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 1: And based on what I've seen online, people really do 435 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 1: care and they're not happy. 436 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 2: So it's starting to sound like low fi hip hop 437 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 2: might be cooked. But what about rock music reggae? That's 438 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 2: after the break. The infiltration of AI and the lo 439 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:30,200 Speaker 2: fi hip hop brings up this larger question of whether 440 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 2: or not people can tell if the music they're listening 441 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 2: to has been generated by AI, or if they can't tell, 442 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:38,639 Speaker 2: whether or not they would even care. You might have 443 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 2: heard about this rock band called Velvet Sundown that people 444 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,880 Speaker 2: were starting to suspect was AI, but just a few 445 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 2: weeks after debuting their first album, it had over a 446 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 2: million streams on Spotify. 447 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 1: That was crazy. There was no info about the band online. 448 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 1: There were the pictures of four men as lurry faded, 449 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:57,880 Speaker 1: looked like an old Instagram filter was on. It didn't 450 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,399 Speaker 1: look real. And then people reached out to the band 451 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:03,920 Speaker 1: and at first someone said that it was all real, 452 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 1: there was no AI at all, And then they conceded 453 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,159 Speaker 1: that it was AI, but they were like, we got you. 454 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 1: This was actually like a trick to see if you 455 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 1: were paying attention. 456 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 2: It took a while, but the band finally updated their 457 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 2: Spotify bio to say quote, the Velvet Sundown is a 458 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 2: synthetic music project guided by human creative direction and composed, voiced, 459 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 2: and visualized with the support of artificial intelligence. 460 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 1: But a lot of people couldn't tell. They just liked 461 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 1: the sound of the music. This is happening a lot 462 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 1: right now. This massive reggae song it has on YouTube, 463 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:40,879 Speaker 1: it has I think like ten million views. 464 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:45,679 Speaker 2: Ut sasmith ut such Smith Soul. 465 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:47,880 Speaker 1: You Jay. 466 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 2: This is so hollow by a band called Let Babylon Burn. 467 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 2: They have hundreds of thousands of subscribers on YouTube and Spotify, 468 00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:00,199 Speaker 2: but not a lot of info about themselves. Otherwise, the 469 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,680 Speaker 2: video itself doesn't say anything about AI. You got to 470 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 2: go digging around their YouTube profile for that, and if 471 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 2: you look there, it calls the songs quote a unique 472 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 2: fusion of acoustic music production, recording and AI enhanced creativity. 473 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 1: So this stuff is just it's like spreading like wildfire, 474 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 1: and at least on this reggae one on YouTube in 475 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:30,400 Speaker 1: the comments, nobody can tell that it's AI. And they're 476 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 1: really heartfelt messages. People are saying that with music made 477 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,199 Speaker 1: them feel like they're experiencing like a montage of their 478 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:39,359 Speaker 1: memories from when they were younger. It's like something that 479 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 1: they made them feel like they're like at their grandma's 480 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 1: like side of her like possible bed, and it's like 481 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 1: making them happy almost like terrifying levels of like on reality. 482 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:54,720 Speaker 1: Just spreading across these platforms and Spotify isn't doing anything 483 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 1: to moderate it. 484 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,640 Speaker 2: Do you think Spotify or these platforms should do something 485 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:00,199 Speaker 2: to modern right. 486 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,679 Speaker 1: It's a tough question because on the one hand, I 487 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,199 Speaker 1: would say definitely like the easy answers, yes, But then 488 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 1: you have to ask, like how do you moderate this? 489 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 1: Because there are so many different ways of using AI 490 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 1: along the production process. I've heard rumors that many rappers 491 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,679 Speaker 1: now are just chat to be seeing lyrics in the studio, 492 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:19,639 Speaker 1: and it's like, does that kind of using AI? 493 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 2: I've seen rappers say out loud just out that they 494 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 2: do it. 495 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:24,920 Speaker 1: There's just so many ways where it's if you're gonna 496 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 1: block something that's AI, it's how much AI would require 497 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:29,679 Speaker 1: you to block them? And also maybe you can use 498 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 1: AI in creative ways. I think as long as you 499 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,360 Speaker 1: know that is AI, like that would solve a lot 500 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 1: of issues. And then if it didn't, you know, we 501 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 1: could just shame the people who like AI. 502 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,399 Speaker 2: But I think it's hard to do that though. We 503 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,879 Speaker 2: can't just shame people who like AI because I think 504 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 2: there's gonna be a moment if it hasn't already happened, 505 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,239 Speaker 2: like what is happening with this reggae song or with 506 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 2: Velvet Sundown frankly, where you hear something you think, yeah, 507 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:03,120 Speaker 2: I like this, and you only find out later it's 508 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:04,199 Speaker 2: AI generated. 509 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 1: I think that's already happened. 510 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 2: I think so that it might have happened to me. 511 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 2: I've definitely listened to stuff and then oh, this is cool. 512 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 2: And I looked at the description this is on YouTube 513 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 2: and they actually disclosed this is. It said something like 514 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:20,639 Speaker 2: this was made partly with AI, and oh, yeah, I 515 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:22,719 Speaker 2: ain't gonna lie man. I felt like, damn, do I 516 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:23,879 Speaker 2: really understand music? 517 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 1: Some of that shit is like really hard to tell. 518 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,719 Speaker 1: Even like the song Timeless by Cardi in the Weekend. 519 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:36,400 Speaker 1: Apparently Cardi's verse allegedly used AI the song rather lie. 520 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 1: On Cardi's album, I think used some AI. There are 521 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 1: all these massive songs that there's a good chance HEYI 522 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 1: is involved in them, and they're good songs right now? 523 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 2: Are is there like a tell where you can tell, 524 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,600 Speaker 2: especially if there's an AI generated lo fi song? Are 525 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 2: there tells that will you can pick that out and say, oh, 526 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 2: I hear this is probably AI. 527 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 1: Is pretty because there's not much thought put into the 528 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: AI ones where it'll be like the same couple instruments, 529 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 1: the exact same drum pattern, the exact same like texture 530 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 1: of like a synth or something, or like the same 531 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 1: few piano notes. I think, for me, like the easiest 532 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 1: way at this point from surfing through trawling through so 533 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 1: much content is like the text around it, like the 534 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 1: semantics of how people frame it, because they will just 535 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:29,959 Speaker 1: have a list of songs that you can't find anywhere 536 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,280 Speaker 1: else on the internet. When you're like, okay, a human 537 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 1: was not involved in this production. 538 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 2: What do you think this says for other genres? Is 539 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 2: this something that's going to stop at lo fi is 540 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 2: or is lo fi a preview of what could happen 541 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 2: to other genres. 542 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 1: It's not even a preview at this point. I think 543 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 1: it's already. Other genres are already being cannibalized in the same 544 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 1: way that lo fi beats have been. I think it's 545 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 1: really just a byproduct of the online streaming economy. It's 546 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,480 Speaker 1: magical in a way the music is so immaterial and 547 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 1: that you can listen to anything anywhere. But you know, 548 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 1: there was something great about records and CDs and like 549 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:09,560 Speaker 1: having to own this stuff because you were curious about 550 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 1: it and because you knew who the artist was. I 551 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 1: think now we've gone too far the other way. Music 552 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 1: is too accessible potentially, it's too like algorithmified, and it 553 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 1: just lubricates this whole environment where now AI can slip in. 554 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 2: There's some things that will make me think that the 555 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 2: lo fi hip hop was kind of the Canardiyan the 556 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 2: coal mine. 557 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think it's a matter of time, but also 558 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 1: a matter of is it gonna be an any bigger 559 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,640 Speaker 1: pushback from streaming platforms, or maybe there'll just be a 560 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 1: parallel economy of like real music and then AI music. 561 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,040 Speaker 1: Maybe the vast bulk of it or the YouTube stuff 562 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 1: will be AI, but then there will be this side 563 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 1: movement of AI free lofi. 564 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 2: You know. 565 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, there will be people who want the human touch, 566 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 1: even for a genre that is lifeless. They want to 567 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 1: feel the life in it. 568 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:03,720 Speaker 2: I saw this YouTube video that said lo fi jungle 569 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 2: playlist as in like jungle and drummer bass, and I 570 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 2: was just curious and I thought, Oh, I wonder what 571 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 2: lo fi jungle sounds like. This sounds like something somebody 572 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 2: made up, but I'm curious to see what it sounds like. 573 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 2: And I listened maybe ten seconds in Yeah, and I 574 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 2: could tell because there was something different about the drums 575 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 2: and drums just weren't hitting right. And then I looked 576 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 2: in the description and this person actually disclosed it that 577 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:27,640 Speaker 2: this was AI generated but you really had to look 578 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 2: down in the description to see that. But yeah, man, 579 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 2: sometimes I can tell and sometimes I can't. To be real, 580 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 2: well that's crazy. 581 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:37,320 Speaker 1: There's I didn't know. It's AI jungle. 582 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 2: I love jungle and drum and bass me too. That's 583 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 2: when I started getting mad. That's when I actually got 584 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:43,360 Speaker 2: upset because. 585 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 1: I felt like, like, it's on my territory now. 586 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, now you're in my territory like lo fi, Okay, 587 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 2: you can have that jungle and I that's when I 588 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 2: started to really sympathize with people for whom lo fi 589 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 2: as a genre, as an aesthetic, as a community truly 590 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:02,280 Speaker 2: means something. That's when I started to really feel it 591 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 2: because I thought, oh, this feeling that I'm feeling right now, 592 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 2: there's a whole bunch of people who are probably feeling 593 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 2: that exact same thing. All right, before we get out 594 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 2: of here, you might have listened to this and be thinking, Yo, 595 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 2: this dude dexter is just a lo fi hater? What's 596 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 2: his problem? But like I said, I have a love 597 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,479 Speaker 2: hate relationship with lo fi. And I mean that because 598 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 2: at one point I was so annoyed with the genre 599 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 2: that I decided to make a low fi hip hop 600 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 2: album just to prove how whack a genre it was. 601 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 2: I don't know, I'm weird like that, But in the process, 602 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 2: I don't know, I ended up kind of liking it actually, 603 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,560 Speaker 2: With the exception of that anime theme song and that 604 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,280 Speaker 2: one track that I told you was AI, every lo 605 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 2: fi track in this episode. I made that. So you 606 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 2: can say whatever you want about me, but you can't 607 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 2: say I don't do my homework. And look, I get it. 608 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:55,760 Speaker 2: Lo fi is a lot of it's just chill background music, 609 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 2: but there's nothing necessarily wrong with that. There's nothing wrong 610 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,240 Speaker 2: with having music that's easy to make. I think it's 611 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 2: good to have something that's low barrier to entry. We 612 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 2: want more people to feel what it's like to participate 613 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,560 Speaker 2: in art. Why would we gatekeep that. It's just weird 614 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 2: to know that some of the stuff that makes it 615 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,680 Speaker 2: easier for us to feel human is also what makes 616 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:25,840 Speaker 2: it so vulnerable to AI. And that's what it is 617 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 2: for this one. Thank you so much for listening to 618 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,320 Speaker 2: kill Switch. You can email us at kill Switch at 619 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 2: Kaleidoscope dot NYC or we're on Instagram at kill Switch 620 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:38,960 Speaker 2: pod and wherever you're listening to this, maybe leave us 621 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 2: a review. It helps other people find the show, which 622 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 2: in turn helps us keep doing our thing. Kill Switch 623 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:49,160 Speaker 2: is hosted by Me Dexter Thomas. It's produced by Sheen Ozaki, 624 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:53,040 Speaker 2: Darluck Potts, and Julia Nutter. Our theme song is by 625 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:56,160 Speaker 2: me and Kyle Murdoch, and Kyle also mixed the show. 626 00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 2: From Kaleidoscope, Our executive producers are Oswa Lashin, mangesh Ha Ho Jigadur, 627 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:05,480 Speaker 2: and Kate Osborne. From iHeart, our executive producers are Katrina 628 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:09,760 Speaker 2: Norville and Nikki E. Tor. One more thing. This whole 629 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,040 Speaker 2: thing made me think about a recent episode we did 630 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 2: on v tubers. This is the one where I went 631 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:15,920 Speaker 2: to a venue where there's like hundreds and hundreds of 632 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:20,839 Speaker 2: people all hanging out watching well fake musicians. These live 633 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:24,759 Speaker 2: events gathering together is one aspect of V twoing that 634 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,839 Speaker 2: for now, I think is keeping that scene alive and 635 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,799 Speaker 2: preventing AI from encroaching too much on that culture. And 636 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,399 Speaker 2: it made me think of if something like this could 637 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 2: happen for lo Fi so I asked, Kieran, is there 638 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:40,759 Speaker 2: any live aspect to any of this? 639 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:43,239 Speaker 1: That was something that I asked these people about because 640 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 1: I was very curious, and a lot of them said no, 641 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:47,840 Speaker 1: that it was very much just like almost like an 642 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:52,640 Speaker 1: introverts genre, like a very homebody, homespun kind of thing. 643 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:58,840 Speaker 2: Interesting, So no lo fi festival, no gathering of lo 644 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,600 Speaker 2: Fi fans, like nobody can sit get in a blanket 645 00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:03,239 Speaker 2: and be cozy together or something. I don't know. 646 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:05,200 Speaker 1: Okay, there must have been, right, there must have been 647 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:07,880 Speaker 1: like a low campfire sash somewhere, because I think the 648 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:10,720 Speaker 1: thing about LOFI is that it is like anti energy 649 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:12,759 Speaker 1: in a way. You know. I think that so many 650 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,080 Speaker 1: of the listeners are also both scattered around the world 651 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:17,879 Speaker 1: and they enjoyed in this passive way. They're not going 652 00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:20,080 Speaker 1: to necessarily buy a ticket to go to a LOFI 653 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:22,200 Speaker 1: festival because they want to experience it at home. 654 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,960 Speaker 2: Okay, well, I guess not. But if you do hear 655 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,680 Speaker 2: of any in person Lo fi shows, let me know. 656 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,720 Speaker 2: I actually think it hitting one of those up anyway, 657 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:33,920 Speaker 2: catch on the next one.