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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and Chuck's

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Speaker 2: here too, and Jerry's here too, and this is stuff

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Speaker 2: you should know part of our ongoing, indefinitely continuous through

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Speaker 2: prime edition.

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Speaker 3: That's right, and weirdly, our second paulap Tompkins reference is

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Speaker 3: coming on this episode. Oh yeah, yeah, because Paul's wonderful,

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Speaker 3: hysterical wife, Jannie looks like Natalie Would.

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Speaker 1: Okay, is she known for that?

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Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know if she's internationally known, but

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Speaker 3: I think Janie knows it and her friends know it,

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Speaker 3: and it has been said out loud.

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Speaker 2: I got, So that's that's what I'm after. I mean,

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Speaker 2: if this is just your observation or not.

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Speaker 3: Oh no, no, no, it's it's been It's been said before.

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Speaker 3: It's on record.

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Speaker 2: So if you don't know who Natalie Would is, first

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Speaker 2: go look up Jennie Tompkins. You get a pretty good idea.

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Speaker 2: You could also look up Natalie Wood herself, sure, but

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Speaker 2: you probably are familiar with her one way or another.

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Speaker 2: First of all, she probably captured your heart as the

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Speaker 2: little girl who doubted the existence of Santa Claus a

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Speaker 2: Miracle on thirty fourth Street, the original one. She might

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Speaker 2: have also captured your heart as the kind of good

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Speaker 2: girl gone bad in Rubble without a Cause. She also

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Speaker 2: may have been like I like that girl in West

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Speaker 2: Side Story, or I like that girl in Splundor in

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Speaker 2: the Grass, or I like that girl in the nineteen

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Speaker 2: seventy six made for TV remake of Cat on a

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Speaker 2: Hot Tin Roof. Well, then you like Natalie Wood.

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Speaker 3: Guys, yeah, Or if you grew up like we did

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Speaker 3: in the eighties, you might like her from the sci

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Speaker 3: fi classic, not classic eighties, early eighties sci fi classic Brainstorm.

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Speaker 2: I never saw it.

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Speaker 3: Oh really, yeah, you should check it out. It was

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Speaker 3: sort of one of those It was in the early eighties.

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Speaker 3: Like there were a few a few of those movies

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Speaker 3: that were kind of in the same vein of do

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Speaker 3: you remember the movie Looker, Yes, like with Albert Finney,

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Speaker 3: And then there was the Tom seliquin about the Little

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Speaker 3: Rope with Jeene Simmons, with the little Robo run Away.

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Speaker 3: It was in that vein.

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Speaker 2: Oh, okay, well, definitely that sounds like a great triple

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Speaker 2: feature if you ask me.

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Speaker 3: It's kind of right up your alley. I bet you'd

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Speaker 3: like it.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I'll check that one out. I have not seen that.

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Speaker 2: I was familiar with her from Rebel without a Cause

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Speaker 2: because I went through a real big James Dean phase

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Speaker 2: in high school. Oh yeah, you might also be familiar. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you might also be familiar with her sister Lana would. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: she was plenty of tool and diamonds are forever. She

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Speaker 2: was very well known for that. And both of these

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Speaker 2: sisters were originally named Zacharenko. They were the daughters of

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Speaker 2: Russian immigrants, Maria and Nick Zakarenko, who moved to San

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Speaker 2: Francisco and had these two kids, and their mom said,

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Speaker 2: you're both going to be stars, especially you. Natalie born Natalia.

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Speaker 3: That's right, and Lana was born what Svetlana?

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Speaker 2: Mm hm.

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Speaker 3: So they, you know, they kind of americanized their names

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Speaker 3: kind of kind of and you know, we're going to

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Speaker 3: be reading through a few different Olivia helped us with this,

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Speaker 3: but she got a lot of this stuff from a

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Speaker 3: few different biographies. So if we reference like Suzanne Finnstad's

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Speaker 3: biography or maybe Robert Wagner's biography or autobiography, that's that's

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Speaker 3: what we're talking about.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, our Sam Kashner wrote a very great Vanity Fair

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Speaker 2: article on it.

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Speaker 3: Oh that's right, very good one. But Suzanne Finnstad's biography

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Speaker 3: recounts the childhood that wasn't as great as it seemed

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Speaker 3: from the outside. That her her father was an alcoholic,

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Speaker 3: her mother was a very controlling sort of manager of

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Speaker 3: her career and would organize meetings with the very experienced

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Speaker 3: men and acts trying to get her foot in the door,

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Speaker 3: including one incident where she did so with Kirk Douglas

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Speaker 3: where she was well. She says she was raped by

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Speaker 3: Kirk Douglas when she was sixteen at one of these

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Speaker 3: meetings at the Chateau Marmont. And I was kept secret

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Speaker 3: for many, many years until Kirk Douglas died, and then

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Speaker 3: Lana came out and said, well, I feel like I

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Speaker 3: should reveal who this person was now. And I think

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Speaker 3: this was in her book that she wrote about her sister,

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Speaker 3: so there was also that account of her life.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's just Kirk Douglas. Apparently her mom arranged

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Speaker 2: sexual liaison when she was fifteen with Frank Sinatra to

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Speaker 2: get this part in Rubble without a cause. She apparently

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Speaker 2: had to prove she was capable of being a bad

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Speaker 2: girl by sleeping with the director, who was forty four

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Speaker 2: at the time. I think she was sixteen then too,

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Speaker 2: And her mom was like complicit in all of this,

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Speaker 2: Like she's just like, this is the price for entry

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Speaker 2: into Hollywood. Sorry, just keep your mouth shutting your chin up,

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Speaker 2: which is I just can't imagine the damage of just

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Speaker 2: these these instances, but then of being like that, dismissed

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Speaker 2: and unsupported by you know, your mom. Just I can't.

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Speaker 2: It's just awful. But what's amazing is that she managed

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Speaker 2: to stay alive and actually thrive over the years, because

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Speaker 2: she did develop a really amazing career, especially early on

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Speaker 2: in the sixties.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you mentioned all those, you know, classic movies she

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Speaker 3: was in. In nineteen fifty seven, she married for the

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Speaker 3: first time Robert Wagner, who you and I Josh would

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Speaker 3: go on to know as the lead actor in the

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Speaker 3: eighties TV show Heart to Heart.

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Speaker 2: Co starring Stephanie Powers.

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Speaker 3: Stephanie Powers. But in the nineteen fifties he was an

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Speaker 3: actor kind of you know, it wasn't super famous, but

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Speaker 3: he acted a lot, and then his star rose as

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Speaker 3: hers was kind of fading. But they divorced in nineteen

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Speaker 3: sixty one on their first marriage. People. You know, some

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Speaker 3: people say magazines, especially back then, said that, you know,

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Speaker 3: Natalie would they broke up because he had she had

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Speaker 3: an affair with Warren Batty. Her Splendor in the Grass

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Speaker 3: co star Sam Kashner in his article says, yeah, this

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Speaker 3: basically is what happened. But in the Finnstad biography, she's like, no, no, no,

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Speaker 3: that is not true at all, and including including Lana

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Speaker 3: will back this up, says, you know, Natalie stumbled upon

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Speaker 3: r J. Her husband, having relations with a man and

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Speaker 3: had a suicide attempt, which was one of several apparently,

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Speaker 3: and that's what happened to their first marriage.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but she allowed the press to say that she

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Speaker 2: had had an affair with Warren Batty. The reason that

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Speaker 2: that held water, even if it wasn't true, is because

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Speaker 2: they were very close. On the set of Splendor in

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Speaker 2: the Grass. They had like just their characters had like

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Speaker 2: just this crazy, sizzling love affair, and as actors, it's

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Speaker 2: tough to separate those things.

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Speaker 3: I belie an Warren Beatty had a certain reputation.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so apparently that is what Robert Wagner thought. He

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Speaker 2: thought that they were having an affair, and he was

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Speaker 2: very jealous and very protective and just felt cuckholded. I

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Speaker 2: guess by this, even though supposedly it didn't even happen.

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Speaker 2: But that's a really important point. That was one of

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Speaker 2: the reasons they broke up was he was very jealous

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Speaker 2: and very overprotective of his relationship with her.

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Speaker 3: That's right. She got married to a gentleman named Richard

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Speaker 3: Gregson after that in nineteen sixty nine. He's a British

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Speaker 3: writer and actor, just sort of, you know, producer of

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Speaker 3: film industry guy. They had their daughter, Natasha, who goes

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Speaker 3: by Natasha Gregson Wagner. Although she's married now. She may

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Speaker 3: have added another name to the end of her name.

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure McGill cutty, mguilla cutty. But she was

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Speaker 3: an actor too. I haven't seen anything a little while.

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure she's still in doing that because she's

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Speaker 3: I know she made a documentary recently about her mom.

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Speaker 3: But I remember seeing her in a few movies back

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Speaker 3: in the day that she did a really good one

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Speaker 3: with Robert Downey Junior. And I can't think of the

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Speaker 3: name of it now.

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Speaker 2: Less than zo oh oh. I know who it is.

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Speaker 2: The Last Days of Disco. No pick up artist.

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Speaker 3: No, he wasn't in the Last Days of Disco.

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Speaker 1: Oh I was it?

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Speaker 2: I can't remember less than zero. No weekend at Bernie's.

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Speaker 3: Think. I think it was just like three people in

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Speaker 3: the movie. Was a very small Oh, now you know

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Speaker 3: what it was weekend at Berney's.

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Speaker 2: There.

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Speaker 3: So she married wag I'm sorry, Gregson. And during that

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Speaker 3: same period, Wagner married a woman named Mary and Marshall.

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Speaker 3: They had a daughter named Katie in sixty four, and

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Speaker 3: then they eventually remarried in seventy two and had a

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Speaker 3: daughter named Courtney. So now there are our three daughters,

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Speaker 3: one that Wood and Wagner had together, and one of

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Speaker 3: each from previous marriages. For her part, Lana Wood was like,

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Speaker 3: why did why are you getting back together with this guy?

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Speaker 3: And as recounted in her book, Natalie said, sometimes the

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Speaker 3: devil you know is better than the devil you don't.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And the reason why Lana Wood Orlana Wood was even

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Speaker 2: questioning her was because they had a tumultuous relationship. Well,

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Speaker 2: they were married the first time, but apparently they never

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Speaker 2: fell out of love or they never stopped loving each

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Speaker 2: other's how I saw it put think in an investigation

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Speaker 2: discovery documentary, and so they remarried in nineteen seventy two.

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Speaker 2: They had Courtney in nineteen seventy four and basically just

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Speaker 2: went back to married life, but now with a family

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Speaker 2: with three daughters. That was a big difference between their

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Speaker 2: first go round. They were trying to make the family

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Speaker 2: work and apparently it was going fairly well.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he was a little older when he like seven

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Speaker 3: or eight years older, eight I think eight years older,

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Speaker 3: and yeah, he got that role in Heart to Heart,

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Speaker 3: and so he started, you know, doing pretty we well

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Speaker 3: in the industry while you know, and you know, it's

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Speaker 3: just the same as true today and an actress in

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Speaker 3: her forties they start looking elsewhere, generally speaking, unless you're

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Speaker 3: you know, like a Meryl Streep or somebody, you're not

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Speaker 3: gonna get the calls that he used to get. And

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Speaker 3: that's what happened certainly with Natalie Wood after great, great

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Speaker 3: fame in the nineteen sixties, fifties into the sixties, and

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Speaker 3: then it started to sort of tail off into the seventies.

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Speaker 2: Yes, but if you're a man in Hollywood and as

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Speaker 2: you start to age you become distinguished, it's a different

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Speaker 2: right of your career, and that's certainly what happened with

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Speaker 2: Robert Wagner.

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Speaker 3: No, he wasn't washed up at forty three. I guess

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Speaker 3: he would have been almost fifty.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he actually his star started to rise again. So

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Speaker 2: they had oppositional careers as far as time went.

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Speaker 3: And that figures in, by the way, that's the reason

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Speaker 3: we're I'm talking about this right.

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Speaker 2: So it's November nineteen eighty one. They've been married again

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Speaker 2: for nine years, and Natalie Wood's forty three, Robert Wagner's

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Speaker 2: fifty one, and I say we take our first break

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Speaker 2: and come back and start talking about the problem.

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Speaker 1: We'll be right back, okay, Chuck.

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Speaker 2: So in Thanksgiving nineteen eighty one, the weekend after, Robert

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Speaker 2: Wagner and Natalie Wood took their yacht out, the Splendor

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Speaker 2: sixty foot yacht. Pretty nice. Apparently it had five state rooms,

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Speaker 2: the whole deal. It was like a legit yacht. Robert

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Speaker 2: Wagner was a boat guy, a yacht guy. Really. I

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Speaker 2: think they took it to Santa Catalina Island better known

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Speaker 2: as Catalina Island. I think like twenty miles off the

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Speaker 2: coast of Los Angeles and I've never been there, but

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Speaker 2: I get the impression that it is very yacht friendly,

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Speaker 2: almost like the South coast of France is how I

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Speaker 2: kind of take it, where very rich people put their

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Speaker 2: yachts in and then go and party in town and

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Speaker 2: then go party from yacht to yacht. And so they

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Speaker 2: showed up Thanksgiving weekend at Catalina Island looking to have

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Speaker 2: a good time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they originally were going to have a lot more

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Speaker 3: friends on board, but apparently the weather was the forecast

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Speaker 3: was a little dodgy, and so the only person that

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Speaker 3: came along was Christopher Walkin, who said, it takes more

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Speaker 3: than a few rain drops to frighten me.

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Speaker 1: It's not bad.

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Speaker 2: Didn't you interview Christopher Walkin on movie Crush once?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Sure, I did.

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Speaker 2: Pretty cool.

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Speaker 3: Listen to that episode great, and also listened to the

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Speaker 3: Kevin Pollock episode.

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Speaker 2: So the reason that Christopher Walkin was there because you're

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Speaker 2: just like, well, that's a little random, Natalie Wood, Robert Wagner.

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Speaker 2: Christopher Walkin, he was an up and coming actor at

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Speaker 2: the time. I'm not even sure did he have the

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Speaker 2: Dead Zone under his belt yet?

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Speaker 3: M I mean he had done he did The Deer

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Speaker 3: Hunter by then Annie Hall and The Deer Hunter and

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Speaker 3: I don't know if Dead Zone it was right around there,

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Speaker 3: but he was, Yeah, he was doing his thing a

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Speaker 3: little bit.

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Speaker 2: He was like Hollywood's it guy actor at the time,

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Speaker 2: like he was in demand, and he was co starring

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Speaker 2: in this movie Brainstorm with Natalie Wood. So she invited

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Speaker 2: her co star friend to the yacht and he was

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Speaker 2: the only one that came out of this whole group.

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Speaker 2: And then very noteworthy as the fourth person, Dennis Davern

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Speaker 2: He was the captain of the yacht and so the

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Speaker 2: four of them were on this yachting weekend after Thanksgiving.

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Speaker 3: Right actually Dead Zone came out that very year, so

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Speaker 3: he was This was kind of early peak walkin Okay.

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Speaker 3: So on Saturday, the twenty eighth of Thanksgiving weekend, they

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Speaker 3: ate dinner at Doug's Harbor reef on Catalina. They got very,

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Speaker 3: very drunk. The manager there said that he was even

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Speaker 3: worried that they couldn't get back. They had a little

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Speaker 3: inflatable motorized dingy, you know, that's what you do when

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Speaker 3: you have a yacht to go to shore. It was

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Speaker 3: called the Prince Valiant, which is also the name of

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Speaker 3: an early Robert Wagner movie, and obviously Splendor was named

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Speaker 3: after Splendor in the Grass, so they had their little boats.

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Speaker 3: Hers was the yacht name. His was the dinghy name,

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Speaker 3: which is interesting.

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Speaker 2: And he hated his role in Prince Valiant. He felt

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Speaker 2: it was his worst role. He was apparently mocked for

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Speaker 2: it widely, so it was kind of like tongue in

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Speaker 2: cheek that he named kell boat Valiant.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense then. But the night manager

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Speaker 3: there at Doug's harbor reef was like, I don't even

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Speaker 3: know if these guys are so drunk the I fear

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Speaker 3: for their safety of just getting back onto the Splendor.

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Speaker 3: So he said, hey, harbor patrol person, can you make

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Speaker 3: sure they get back safely? They left about ten ten

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Speaker 3: thirty at night, and then at one thirty in the morning,

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Speaker 3: Robert Wagner and Captain Dabn made a call to the

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Speaker 3: shore saying, you know, Natalie what has gone missing? We

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Speaker 3: need your help this one thirty am. Two hours later,

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Speaker 3: at three thirty they called the Coastguard to get a

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Speaker 3: formal search going, and then very tragically, at seven forty

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Speaker 3: five in the morning, Davern identified the body of Natalie

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Speaker 3: Wood about a mile south of where the yacht was anchored,

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Speaker 3: and a flannel nightgown, socks, and a red down jacket.

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Speaker 2: Yep, the dinghy they found washed up on the shore

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Speaker 2: and very very importantly, the oars were locked, so they

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Speaker 2: had not been used to row. The ignition was off,

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Speaker 2: so it had not been turned on, and yet it

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Speaker 2: was just kind of washed away from the boat. This

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Speaker 2: was an enormous deal. I mean, like, Natalie Wood was

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Speaker 2: already like Hollywood legend. And what's more, she was one

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Speaker 2: of the reasons she was having trouble getting parts was

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Speaker 2: not just her age, but she was old Hollywood, and

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Speaker 2: Hollywood had started to transition in the seventies into like

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Speaker 2: a newer version of itself and kind of resented the

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Speaker 2: old studios and stuff. So she was like Hollywood royalty

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Speaker 2: at this time already. And the idea that she died

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Speaker 2: from unnatural causes was just I mean, it was just

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Speaker 2: a sensation right out of the gate.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I remember this. I was a kid,

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Speaker 3: but I was a kid who devoured entertainment. Tonight the

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Speaker 3: TV show when that first came out, which was somewhere

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Speaker 3: around here, I remember being about that age when that

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Speaker 3: TV show premiered and I would watch it every night

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Speaker 3: and keep up with that stuff. And I remember very

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Speaker 3: distinctly Natalie would die and drowning and her husband I

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Speaker 3: was like the heart to heart guy, and kind of

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Speaker 3: out of the gate, it was portrayed as as an accident.

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Speaker 3: And that's sort of what you know this podcast is

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Speaker 3: going to detail is the way the story has changed

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Speaker 3: over the years, the suspicions that it wasn't just a

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Speaker 3: simple accident. And it kind of started off with the autopsy.

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Speaker 3: There was a medical examiner named Joseph Troy who said

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Speaker 3: that Nellie Wood's blood alcohol content level was point one four,

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Speaker 3: just very high.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, let me just I look that up because I'm like, okay,

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Speaker 2: what does that actually mean in like like physical behavioral terms. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: according to the South Australia government, point zero eight two

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Speaker 2: point one five, So just above what Natalie Wood had

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Speaker 2: in her bloodstream, you can expect slurred speech, impaired balance,

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Speaker 2: unstable emotions, possible nausea and vomiting. Just above point one five,

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Speaker 2: you can't control your bladder and you probably will need

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Speaker 2: help walking around. So she was very drunk at the

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Speaker 2: time she died.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And uh, if you want to be very very

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Speaker 3: technically bored. You should go listen to our episode on breathalyzers.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they were really difficult to explain.

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Speaker 3: That was a beast and I'm surprised we don't remember

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Speaker 3: that more often when we're asked what episodes have been

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Speaker 3: the hardest or worst.

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Speaker 2: Definitely the hardest because there's like a crystal involved that

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Speaker 2: somehow like tells your fortune and then they translate that

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Speaker 2: and the ones and zeros.

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Speaker 3: A very very tough episode, but it's out there. He

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Speaker 3: uh so, Troy said point one four percent, and also

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Speaker 3: a medical examiner, right, yeah, and also said that there

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Speaker 3: were bruises on her arms and legs and face and

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Speaker 3: basically said, you know, it looks like she probably fell overboard.

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Speaker 3: She was trying to get into the dinghy. She was

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Speaker 3: very drunk, and this these bruises and things were is

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Speaker 3: evidence of her kind of doggedly trying to get back

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Speaker 3: on unsuccessfully. There was a chief medical examiner named Thomas

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Speaker 3: Nogucci for the county who said, yeah, and if you

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Speaker 3: look at the dinghy here, there's scratches on the side

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Speaker 3: of it. Clearly she was trying to pull herself back

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Speaker 3: up on this thing. But she was in that down

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Speaker 3: jacket and it became very very heavy, and she probably

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Speaker 3: just held onto that dinghy and got hypothermia and exhausted

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Speaker 3: and she drowned and it's an accident.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So that was the official line for a very

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Speaker 2: long time. For some reason, Natalie Wood decades tried to, yeah,

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Speaker 2: tried to get into the Valiant, the dinghy late at night.

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Speaker 2: She was very drunk, and as she was trying to

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Speaker 2: get into the dinghy, she slipped and fell and drowned.

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Speaker 2: She was well known as a strong swimmer, or not

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Speaker 2: a strong swimmer, not very good at swimming at all,

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Speaker 2: the opposite of a strong swimmer. The thing is is

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Speaker 2: that doesn't explain why she tried to get into the

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Speaker 2: dinghy at night. That was It's always been an outstanding question.

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Speaker 2: And so Thomas Nogucci, the chief medical Examiner for the

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Speaker 2: Los Angeles County Coroner's Office, come to psychological autopsy, which

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Speaker 2: is a thing, but from what I can tell, it's

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Speaker 2: a thing that you commission when you're trying to show

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Speaker 2: that a suspicious death that seems accidental was actually suicide.

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Speaker 2: Like they take into account like the person's life history,

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Speaker 2: their family history, social interactions, what they were doing right

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Speaker 2: before they died. So it's kind of odd that he

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Speaker 2: had this commissioned. It was even odder that when he

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Speaker 2: got it back, he's like, I'm not releasing to the public,

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Speaker 2: and he said that he was afraid that he would

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Speaker 2: be accused of sensationalism that ship had already sailed. He

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Speaker 2: was very much despised by Natalie Wood's friends and just

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Speaker 2: Hollywood in general because he made the grave mistake of

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Speaker 2: mentioning that she was drunk when she died accidentally at

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Speaker 2: the press conference about her death and their findings, and

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Speaker 2: he received the ire of Frank Sinatra, Screen Actors Guild

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Speaker 2: and generally all of Hollywood, and ended up being demoted

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Speaker 2: from his position at the top of the coroner's office

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Speaker 2: to not chief. They actually assigned him the title not

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Speaker 2: Chief Examiner anymore. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I think it was definitely one of those cases where

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Speaker 3: she was Hollywood royalty, like you said, and no one

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Speaker 3: in the world wants to hear that Natalie Wood got

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Speaker 3: so drunk that she slipped and fell into the water

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Speaker 3: and drowned. No, it's tawdry, Yeah, And so they tried to,

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Speaker 3: you know, they tried to keep that quiet. It was

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Speaker 3: a you know, when he mentioned it the press conference,

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Speaker 3: it was a big deal. And now we get into

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Speaker 3: sort of the you know what happened after three decades

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Speaker 3: and how this story has changed over the years.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because just one thing, Chuck. If that were it

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Speaker 2: and like the story stayed straight all these years and

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Speaker 2: nothing ever changed, it would be fishy, but not a

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Speaker 2: big deal. The reason that it's a big deal and

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Speaker 2: we're talking about it today is that over the years,

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Speaker 2: the people who were there changed their stories, and that's

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Speaker 2: why it goes from kind of fishy to an all

398
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Speaker 2: out mystery.

399
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Speaker 3: Yeah, an all out mystery and scandal really that you know,

400
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Speaker 3: how many years later is this people are still sort

401
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Speaker 3: of talking about it, some people are still obsessed with

402
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Speaker 3: it and writing books about it. For Wagner's part, he

403
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Speaker 3: has done. Like I mentioned earlier, there was an eighty

404
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Speaker 3: six authorized biography, Heart to Heart spelled with an E

405
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Speaker 3: this time, not like the TV show because on the

406
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Speaker 3: TV show they were the Hearts the Harts.

407
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Speaker 2: But he couldn't get the use his studio.

408
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Speaker 3: He didn't want to pay for that, so Heart to

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Speaker 3: Heart with Robert Wagner and he said in nineteen eighty

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Speaker 3: six that me and Chris walking gotten an argument about politics.

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Speaker 3: There was another biography in two thousand and eight called

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Speaker 3: Pieces of My Heart. I'm Sorry. This is the autobiography

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Speaker 3: that he himself wrote, obviously probably with some help, where

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Speaker 3: he said, actually, the fight was about my wife. We

415
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:04,639
Speaker 3: were having an argument about her, like, you know, forget

416
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Speaker 3: about this career. You know, you had your day, you

417
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Speaker 3: should just be mom. Now we got these three girls,

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Speaker 3: I've got this great acting career going, so let me

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Speaker 3: do that. And Christopher Walker was like, no, she's Natalie

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Speaker 3: wood Man.

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Speaker 2: Wait wait, wait, wait, you gotta do it as walking.

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Speaker 3: Nook Korea, Matta's Robert God.

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Speaker 2: That's great. Jay tied for first with Sammy Davis Junior.

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Speaker 3: No, well, but it's also like probably one of the

425
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Speaker 3: worst walkings because everyone does walking, and most of them

426
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Speaker 3: are pretty great.

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Speaker 2: I don't do walking. I admire your walking. I'm just

428
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:42,680
Speaker 2: gonna put.

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Speaker 3: It, give it a shut nothing.

430
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Speaker 2: H No, you know what happens when I actually try

431
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Speaker 2: to do a voice of Go South.

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Speaker 3: Same year, So no matter how it shakes out, Wagner

433
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Speaker 3: basically said, you know, as far as what the fight

434
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Speaker 3: was about, was that, even though that is key, that

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00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 3: he changed his story because you know first is about

436
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 3: politics and it was personal. Yeah, that's a bad change,

437
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,000
Speaker 3: it's a big change. But either way, he said, Natalie,

438
00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:12,240
Speaker 3: you know, was annoyed, she was put off by all this,

439
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:14,600
Speaker 3: or she just got bored. She went to the master

440
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,639
Speaker 3: cabin and the last thing I saw of her was

441
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 3: when I went to check on her and she was

442
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:22,880
Speaker 3: doing her hair the vanity and basically shut the door.

443
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:26,240
Speaker 2: On right, and Christopher Walkin supported this. They were in

444
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 2: an argument. Natalie Wood left and then apparently according to

445
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:37,239
Speaker 2: Robert Wagner's autobiography, after Natalie Wood left, they continued their

446
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:41,160
Speaker 2: argument and it got so heated that Robert Wagner smashed

447
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 2: a wine bottle on the table.

448
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 3: And where to do if.

449
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,840
Speaker 2: You're younger and you're like, this is bizarre behavior, you

450
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:51,760
Speaker 2: need to take into account. These people were ruinously drunk

451
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 2: this night. They were as drunk as you can be

452
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 2: and still be standing up and talking that drunk. So

453
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 2: that's why they were doing things like yelling about careers

454
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,920
Speaker 2: and smashing wine bottles on the table, and all sorts

455
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:07,719
Speaker 2: of other things that will come up. But the line

456
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 2: throughout was that Natalie Wood went to bed, Christopher Walking

457
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 2: and Robert Wagner eventually parted ways Robert Robert Wagner I

458
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 2: think went out to the bridge or outside, Christopher Walkin

459
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 2: went to bed, and it wasn't for another hour or

460
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 2: so that they noticed that Natalie Wood was gone, and

461
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:27,879
Speaker 2: so is the dinghy.

462
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 3: That's right. Natalie Wood's lawyer said after her death that

463
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 3: she often took the dinghy out alone. Robert Wagner apparently,

464
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 3: as far as this initial story goes, wasn't super worried

465
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 3: because this is something that they say she was known

466
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,439
Speaker 3: to do. But like you said, she was not a

467
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,399
Speaker 3: strong swimmer. And there's an interview that has been played

468
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 3: time and time again throughout all of this sort of

469
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 3: trying to piece together what happened where not too long

470
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 3: before her death, where she said, I'm frightened to death

471
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 3: of the water. I can swim a little bit, but

472
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 3: I'm afraid of the water. I'm afraid of the water

473
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 3: in the dark of water that is dark. So immediately

474
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,440
Speaker 3: there's a suspicion of like, why in the world would

475
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 3: she have gone out there in this dinghy, Like sure

476
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,359
Speaker 3: she had had some drinks and was maybe drunk. Robert

477
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 3: Wagner in that Autobiograhy said, well, that's exactly the point.

478
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 3: She went out there and realized that, oh wait, I

479
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 3: am too drunk, I'm not a great swimmer, I'm scared

480
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:27,119
Speaker 3: of the water at night. And they didn't hear the

481
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 3: engine start up, so again it was just an accident

482
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,399
Speaker 3: that happened. Or maybe she even you know, couldn't get

483
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 3: to sleep because this dinghy wasn't secured and it was

484
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 3: banging against you know, the stateroom near the stateroom, so

485
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 3: she got out to do that to tie it up better,

486
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 3: and then slipped in right.

487
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 2: Yeah. Because when people are like, why would she go

488
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 2: out and the dinghy if she was afraid of water,

489
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 2: She didn't know how to drive the dinghy, and she

490
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,439
Speaker 2: was wearing a night gown, He's like, well, probably it

491
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 2: was banging and making noise. She was just trying to

492
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 2: retie it. Those were the two. That was his first one.

493
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:01,879
Speaker 2: People question it was the second one. The thing is is,

494
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 2: throughout this all the other witnesses supported what he was saying,

495
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,680
Speaker 2: including Christopher Walkin. Apparently the last time he talked about

496
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 2: it was in nineteen ninety seven in a Playboy magazine interview,

497
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:16,680
Speaker 2: where he said that she slipped and fell in the water.

498
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 2: And then one of the things that has never changed

499
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 2: over the entire life of this story is that Christopher

500
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 2: Walkin was in bed when all this happened, asleep. No

501
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 2: one's ever changed that little nugget.

502
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 3: Yeah. He has not talked about it much over the years.

503
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 2: No, but when he has, he supported Robert Wagner's version.

504
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, but he didn't write biographies and go into detail

505
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 3: or anything like that. He's there are a couple of

506
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 3: random interviews where he talks about it, but otherwise he

507
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 3: is like just basically stay mom exactly.

508
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,639
Speaker 2: I mean, talk about it like a terrible weekend on

509
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 2: the boat as a guest, you know.

510
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely so right off the bat. There are people

511
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 3: that are like, this sounds pretty fishy. In nineteen ninety two,

512
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:06,400
Speaker 3: it's like nine years later, Entertainment Weekly had a story.

513
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 3: You know, they you know, journalists kept following up over

514
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 3: the years. Basically it's like, what's up with this story?

515
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,639
Speaker 3: Like it's not adding up. There are certain things that

516
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,439
Speaker 3: just don't make any sense. Different people came out over

517
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 3: the years that supposedly heard things that was in the

518
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 3: Entertainment Weekly story that was a boat nearby the Capricorn

519
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 3: with John Payne and Marilyn Wayne on board, and they

520
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 3: supposedly heard a woman yelling for help in the direction of.

521
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 2: The splendor for fifteen minutes.

522
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that Kashner Vanity Fair article. They said, you know,

523
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 3: they thought it could have just been people goofing off,

524
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 3: like everyone's out there getting drunk and being loud, probably,

525
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 3: and it was hard to tell if it was real

526
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 3: like worried, you know, in panic, screaming, or people just

527
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 3: having a good time. But the last thing they said

528
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:57,400
Speaker 3: was they claim that they heard a man's slurred voice saying, okay, honey,

529
00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 3: we'll get you.

530
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 2: Yeah. The thing is is the cops never interviewed Wayne

531
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 2: and Pain. They just were disincluded, I guess. And as

532
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 2: you'll see, like this first investigation wrapped up pretty quick,

533
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 2: so it's not surprising that they weren't interview but it

534
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 2: is egregious they weren't. There's one other thing that Marilyn

535
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 2: Wayne said. She said, three days after Natalie Wood's death,

536
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 2: she received a little message in scribbled handwriting saying, if

537
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 2: you value your life, keep quiet about what you know,

538
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,239
Speaker 2: which is not just a threat, it also is a

539
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 2: very desperate act from a guilty conscience. If you do

540
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 2: something like that, you're really worried about things, because that's

541
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 2: a really over extension of your yourself in that case,

542
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 2: just FYI, I guess yeah.

543
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 3: And if you picture Christopher Walking saying it, it's bone.

544
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 2: Chilling, let's hear it.

545
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 3: No, there's no hay, that's too far.

546
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 2: How about the same Davis Tunior doing it.

547
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 3: That'd be kind of fun. Actually, yeah, if you value

548
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 3: your lash, bab keep quiet about what you know. Man,

549
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 3: very nice.

550
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 2: So that's like, I mean, that's bombshell stuff. But because

551
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 2: it wasn't included in the police investigation, it's treated as

552
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 2: conjecture rumor maybe Marilyn Wayne is trying to get her

553
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 2: fifteen minutes of fame. From what I could tell, she

554
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,959
Speaker 2: was not like that at all. She didn't seem to

555
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 2: be prone to confabulations. She seemed like a reliable witness. Yeah,

556
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 2: she wasn't included in the original investigation, but she was

557
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 2: included in subsequent journalism and books on the subject.

558
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 3: That's right from the beginning. Wana Wood was someone who

559
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 3: has sort of beat the drum of Hey, let's get

560
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 3: this investigation going again. I'm not buying all this stuff.

561
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 3: One of the biggest reasons why is because Dennis Davern,

562
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 3: that ship captain, that yacht captain, his story really changed.

563
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 3: At first, he went along with that official narrative like

564
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 3: you were saying, like all three men did. But later on,

565
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 3: and some of these were paid appearances, we should point

566
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 3: out he said, I was lying about some stuff in

567
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 3: nineteen eighty one. In that Cashner book in two thousand,

568
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 3: he said this whole trip was not great. In fact,

569
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 3: she didn't even spend the night on the boat the

570
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 3: day before, she stayed on shore because there was so

571
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 3: much kind of unpleasantness in fighting going on, and it

572
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 3: stemmed from jealousy, like he didn't like, you know, this

573
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 3: was her co star in her new movie that she

574
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 3: was in, and he thought that they were flirting too

575
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 3: much and that there might be something going on and

576
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 3: he was getting too much attention Christopher Walken, and I

577
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 3: didn't say this stuff back then, Yeah, he said that.

578
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 2: I think on the Today Show they said, well, what

579
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 2: were you you know, what did you tell the police?

580
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 2: And he said, I told them the story that RJ

581
00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 2: came up with.

582
00:31:58,160 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 3: Yeah.

583
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 2: So there's another thing too. Dennis Evan has over the

584
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 2: year has been very much accused of being like a

585
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 2: publicity hound. Yeah, trying he's after the money or what

586
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 2: he writ and whatever. He did write a book. But

587
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,239
Speaker 2: if you start to dig into him too, and you

588
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 2: watch some interviews with him, he genuinely seems uncomfortable. He

589
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 2: doesn't seem like he's seeking the limelight. He does seem,

590
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 2: I mean, at least at first glance, a person with

591
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:27,480
Speaker 2: a guilty conscience that's trying to come clean. And then

592
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 2: more most importantly, I think he doesn't paint himself in

593
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 2: like this this angelic light, like he lied to police,

594
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 2: he went along with a conspiracy to cover up a murder. Potentially,

595
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 2: like he's he's admitting his own his own culpability while

596
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 2: he's you know, revealing the truth. He's not trying to

597
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 2: keep himself out of it.

598
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 3: That's a good point. Yeah, that's a very good point.

599
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 3: He also said in this Kashner book, the yacht captain said,

600
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 3: after we got back from dinner on the twenty eighth,

601
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 3: they were drunk. They kept drinking, and Wagner was again

602
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 3: still upset because you know, they were sort of giggling together,

603
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 3: Natalie Wood and Chris Walkin were That's when the wine

604
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 3: bottle got smashed and he yelled, what are you trying

605
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 3: to do? F my wife. That's when, supposedly, according to Dabne,

606
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 3: Wood went to her room and walk in went to

607
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 3: his room.

608
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 2: Because it's a party foul to smash your wine bottle

609
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 2: on the table and say that to your guest.

610
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a big party foul.

611
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:34,960
Speaker 3: Like the party's over. At that point exactly, they went

612
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 3: to their separate rooms. After a little while. According to Dabne,

613
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 3: Robert Wagner went to Natalie Woods, you know, to their room,

614
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 3: and he heard them quote fighting like crazy, things being

615
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 3: thrown around. Then he said he heard the dinghy being untied.

616
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 3: And in the Finstad book that just came out a

617
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 3: few years ago, apparently the last words that Dennis Dabren

618
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 3: heard Wagner say were get off my effing boat.

619
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 2: A lot of f words from that guy that night.

620
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's not hard to heart.

621
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 2: So one other account that he gave of it was

622
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 2: that there was this scuffle, a lot of physical sounds

623
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,839
Speaker 2: of fighting, not just from the stateroom but now outside

624
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 2: on the deck of the boat. Yeah, in earshot, but

625
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:20,760
Speaker 2: out of eyesight, and he hears get off my effing boat,

626
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 2: a little more of a scuffle and then silence. That's eerie,

627
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 2: but it doesn't vibe with Marilyn Wayne's ear witness account,

628
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 2: which was that she heard somebody calling for help for

629
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:38,320
Speaker 2: fifteen minutes. It's possible that Davern's telling what an accurate

630
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:42,879
Speaker 2: He's portraying the story accurately, and that Marilyn Wayne really

631
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:46,759
Speaker 2: did hear somebody else goofing around. Who knows, but those

632
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 2: two it's important that those two accounts earwitness accounts don't

633
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:52,279
Speaker 2: wine up necessarily.

634
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:57,239
Speaker 3: So around eleven thirty, according to Dabn, Wagner came back

635
00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:01,799
Speaker 3: to the bridge, was shovelled looking apparently, and they got

636
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:05,320
Speaker 3: drunk together, apparently on more than wine.

637
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, I think they moved to Scotch.

638
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,919
Speaker 3: So at one point thirty in the morning, Dabren says

639
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 3: that Wagner said he was going to go check on

640
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 3: her in her room, came back and said she was gone.

641
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 3: That's when they noticed that Dinghy was gone, and he's like,

642
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 3: I gotta turn on these lights and start looking. According

643
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:25,880
Speaker 3: to Davren, Wagner said, don't do that, don't turn on

644
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 3: the engine, don't do anything, because we don't want to

645
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 3: alert all these people.

646
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 2: It's a very weird thing to say if your wife

647
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:32,440
Speaker 2: is missing off.

648
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 1: Of a boat, very weird.

649
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 2: Even if you're ruinously drunk, that is a weird thing

650
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 2: to say, because also take into account Dennis Davren is

651
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 2: ruinously drunk at this time too, and his first instinct

652
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 2: is to turn on the floodlights and start looking around

653
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:52,319
Speaker 2: the boat. Yeah, so Davren said that this is all news.

654
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 2: He's admitting that he lied to the police. At the time.

655
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 2: He was interviewed twice by the police on the morning

656
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:00,479
Speaker 2: of at the boat and then a few days later

657
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:03,839
Speaker 2: in the presence of two of Robert Wagner's lawyers. And

658
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 2: this is not what he told the police. This is

659
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 2: all very new and scandalous stuff. That he's basically pointing

660
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 2: the finger at Robert Wagner without coming out and saying

661
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 2: it overtly. And he's saying that he lied to the

662
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,720
Speaker 2: police because he had a really unusual experience. At the time.

663
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 2: He was fairly young. I think he was in his

664
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 2: twenties at the time. He was just some boat dude

665
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:28,839
Speaker 2: who they'd hired to be their captain and had become

666
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 2: friends as close as friends as you can be with

667
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 2: somebody you employer who employs you, right, But he kind

668
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 2: of took them to be friends. And so right after

669
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 2: Natalie Wood died, he essentially moved in with Robert Wagner.

670
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:44,440
Speaker 2: Robert Wagner moved him into his house in Beverly Hills

671
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 2: for a few weeks, and later on Dennis Davren said

672
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 2: it was akin to a hostage situation.

673
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like, according to Davren, it was like, let me

674
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,839
Speaker 3: get this guy in here and just let's keep him

675
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:00,200
Speaker 3: drunk and get drunk, and you know, they're all so

676
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:06,760
Speaker 3: you know, drowning their sorrows and I imagine deeply upset.

677
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 3: But he, yeah, like he said, he felt like he

678
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 3: was not allowed to leave. Almost.

679
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, supposedly one of his girlfriends showed up to

680
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 2: speak to him and was turned away at the door.

681
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 2: There wasn't a phone in the bedroom that he had,

682
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 2: and at night when they turned on the security system,

683
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:23,839
Speaker 2: he couldn't leave the bedroom or else it would set

684
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 2: the security system off. So it's not like anybody was like,

685
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 2: you stay here, but he, like you said, he didn't

686
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:30,359
Speaker 2: feel like he could leave. It's a very weird thing

687
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,879
Speaker 2: to say, but that is his explanation for why he

688
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 2: didn't say this and why he lied to police at first.

689
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 3: That's right, I think, now a.

690
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 2: Break, Yes, yeah, let's do it.

691
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 3: All right, We'll take a break, and we'll be right

692
00:37:43,719 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 3: back to talk about what's happened since then. All right.

693
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 3: We mentioned earlier that Davren wrote a book it is

694
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 3: called Goodbye Natalie, Goodbye Splendor. That was in two thousand

695
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 3: and nine. In November of twenty eleven, the LA Sheriff's

696
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:30,359
Speaker 3: Department reopened the investigation, and I remember this is very

697
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 3: big news, saying we have some new information from some

698
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 3: unnamed sources. Lana, like I mentioned, Lana had been beating

699
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:41,360
Speaker 3: the drum to kind of get this thing reopened for years.

700
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 3: A publicist for the Wagner family said, you know, these

701
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 3: are people trying to get their fifteen minutes. They're trying

702
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 3: to profit on the thirty year anniversary of the death.

703
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 3: They didn't specifically mention Dabren's book, but Dabren, for his part,

704
00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 3: was like, man, my book's out of print at this point,

705
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,799
Speaker 3: and like, no one's trying to sell a book here.

706
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,360
Speaker 2: Well. He also supposedly turned down a fifty thousand dollars

707
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:07,880
Speaker 2: offer from a tabloid to tell the story again, he

708
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 2: didn't do it, so, yeah, he was apparently not out

709
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:12,760
Speaker 2: for the money exactly.

710
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 3: Well, you know, these are all accounts of people, so

711
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:17,239
Speaker 3: we can just report it, right.

712
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 2: Yes, Yes, I'm glad you said that, because i don't

713
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 2: want to give the impression that I'm like in Dennis

714
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 2: Davern's corner. I'm just trying to give the full picture.

715
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:27,400
Speaker 2: I'm not trying to push him on anybody as a

716
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:30,239
Speaker 2: reliable person. That's not what I mean to be doing.

717
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:31,440
Speaker 2: So I'm glad you said that.

718
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:37,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, so officials said that Wagner and Walking like they're

719
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 3: not suspects right now. In twenty eleven, Walking lawyered up

720
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 3: immediately though, which is interesting. And here's the rub. At

721
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 3: this point, the statute of limitations had run out for

722
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 3: anything but murder, So they couldn't you go after him

723
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:58,719
Speaker 3: for assault or anything like that unless it was assault

724
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:01,960
Speaker 3: with intent to murder her. And they're like, we don't

725
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 3: have a case for that. We don't have new physical evidence.

726
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 3: This story has changed, Davern has admitted to lying, So like,

727
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:14,720
Speaker 3: unless we have some ironclad sort of you know, figured

728
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:19,359
Speaker 3: of smoking gun, we can't go after Robert Wagner, you know,

729
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 3: for murdering Natalie Wood.

730
00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 2: Right, But at the same time, Robert Wagner doesn't want

731
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 2: this talked about any longer because whether he did it

732
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 2: or not, it's his name invariably is dragged through the

733
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 2: mud now anytime this story comes up in the press,

734
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 2: especially now that the Sheriff's Department has reopened the case,

735
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 2: So it couldn't have been very comfortable for him. Dennis

736
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 2: Davern did the rounds. He was on today's show. He

737
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 2: was asked directly about lying to the police and admitted

738
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 2: that he had, and apparently other people came forward to

739
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 2: something like one hundred different people contacted the Sheriff's Department

740
00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:00,359
Speaker 2: in Los Angeles, and one of the people that the

741
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:03,440
Speaker 2: detectives talked to, one of the lead investigators, was named

742
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 2: Ralph Fernandez. He was put together with a confidential source

743
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 2: of Finstad, the biographer who had done like years of

744
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 2: research on this, and apparently Hernandez found the person credible

745
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:21,080
Speaker 2: enough that this kind of became an extra part of

746
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:25,960
Speaker 2: the case, which was that this person had heard Walkin

747
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:29,399
Speaker 2: say that Wagner and Wood have been fighting and that

748
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:34,440
Speaker 2: Wagner pushed Wood didn't they pushed him over pushed her overboard,

749
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 2: killed her, nothing like that. But it's enough that like

750
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 2: it breaks or it veers away from Walkin's like solid

751
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,319
Speaker 2: line throughout the whole time, which is that he was

752
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:46,760
Speaker 2: in bed, it was an accident.

753
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:51,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, And other people came forward just sort of verifying

754
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 3: that there was like yelling, crashing around people on the boat, arguing.

755
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 3: You know, I think it's basically agreed on at this

756
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 3: point that everyone, you know, it was loud and there

757
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 3: was arguing, and that was fighting. I don't think anyone,

758
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:11,239
Speaker 3: I mean, even from the beginning it was just like, yeah,

759
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:14,080
Speaker 3: we're arguing about politics. But that changed pretty quickly too

760
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:16,920
Speaker 3: because there were so many ear witnesses.

761
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:17,719
Speaker 1: Basically yeah.

762
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 2: But it's important to point out though Chuck is Wagner

763
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:23,279
Speaker 2: is never acknowledged that he fought with Wood. It was

764
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:27,239
Speaker 2: always an argument really between him and Walkin, maybe as

765
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:31,360
Speaker 2: far as it was about Wood's career, right, He's never

766
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:34,759
Speaker 2: said he was in an argument directly with Wood, and

767
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:38,360
Speaker 2: especially that he didn't have any like throwing stuff around

768
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,600
Speaker 2: the room fight with Natalie Wood. So that's important to

769
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:45,359
Speaker 2: remember too. His explanation is way back in the rear view.

770
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 2: Now as far as we've gone with all of these

771
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:50,920
Speaker 2: different explanations.

772
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:54,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely so. Summer of twenty twelve, the cause of

773
00:42:54,400 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 3: death was formally changed to undetermined and drowning and other

774
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:06,200
Speaker 3: determined factors was the description of the accidental drowning. The

775
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 3: La County corner said, you know, we have to explain

776
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:12,919
Speaker 3: this to the family. There has been a new analysis

777
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:18,799
Speaker 3: of these bruises. You know, some of them indicate that

778
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:22,359
Speaker 3: they were, you know, before she drowned, like they were

779
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 3: from a fight. There were bruises on her wrist that

780
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 3: suggest assault happened, and like they had to tell their

781
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 3: family this.

782
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 2: Yeah. Also, there was another person named Vidal Herrera who

783
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 2: took photos of Natalie Wood's body for the coroner's office,

784
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:40,400
Speaker 2: and he said that he saw significant wounds on her

785
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:43,719
Speaker 2: head that were bad enough that she might have been

786
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:47,759
Speaker 2: unconscious before she even hit the water from the head wounds. Right,

787
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 2: that's a new piece of information. There was another new

788
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:54,839
Speaker 2: piece of information that came forward in twenty twenty. Who

789
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 2: was someone else that worked at the coroner's office named

790
00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:57,880
Speaker 2: Michael Franco.

791
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:01,440
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, so, and then again this is from Finstad's

792
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 3: book Franco said that these friction burns and striations from

793
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:10,360
Speaker 3: the wrist and on her body were in the opposite

794
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 3: direction or what you would think you would get as

795
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:16,279
Speaker 3: she's trying to climb onto a boat, and there was

796
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 3: bruising on her thighs, bruising on her shins, and to me,

797
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:24,440
Speaker 3: chuck to Franco said, to me, it looked like, you know,

798
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:27,480
Speaker 3: it was someone who had been you know, pushed and

799
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 3: was in a physical altercation with another human.

800
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:32,439
Speaker 2: Yeah. And back in the day in nineteen eighty two,

801
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 2: when he was an intern at the coroner's office, he

802
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:39,799
Speaker 2: went to Chief Examiner Thomas Nogucci and said all this

803
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:42,799
Speaker 2: stuff to him, and Nogucci apparently told Michael Franco that

804
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 2: some things are better left unsaid and that, however it

805
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 2: was written up, that's all you need to know. She's

806
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 2: a very weird thing for a chief medical examiner to say,

807
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:54,880
Speaker 2: because they're the ones who are responsible for determining cause

808
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:55,320
Speaker 2: of death.

809
00:44:55,880 --> 00:45:00,680
Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, where we stand today as of about a

810
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 3: year and a half ago, in May twenty twenty two,

811
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:07,960
Speaker 3: the Sheriff's Department has ended the investigation, but it remains

812
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:13,319
Speaker 3: a quote open unsolved case. You know, it's become a

813
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 3: thing that has divided as family because on one side

814
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 3: you have Lana sort of beating the drum to keep

815
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 3: this thing going and very suspicious of Robert Wagner. And

816
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:27,880
Speaker 3: then you have all the daughters have remained steadfast behind

817
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:30,839
Speaker 3: their dad, and they were like, he loved her very

818
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:34,439
Speaker 3: very much. Things may have been volatile, but he did

819
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:37,680
Speaker 3: not kill her, although Lana also says like, I don't

820
00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:41,279
Speaker 3: think he had some murders and tent I think they

821
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:44,359
Speaker 3: were drunk and things got out of hand and he

822
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:47,040
Speaker 3: flew into a moment of rage that ended in her death,

823
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:52,360
Speaker 3: which is a different accusation than you know, he was

824
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 3: some abusive husband and this was bound to happen or

825
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:55,640
Speaker 3: something right exactly.

826
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 2: So she said this in a twenty twenty one memoir

827
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 2: that you mentioned before. It's called Little Sister Colon my

828
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:05,080
Speaker 2: investigation into the mysterious death of Natalie Wood, and she

829
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:08,440
Speaker 2: says that Robert Wagner told her that after the funeral,

830
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:11,720
Speaker 2: She's like, what happened? And Robert Wagner told her, Natalie

831
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:14,879
Speaker 2: Wood's sister, that Natalie had probably taken the dinghy out

832
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 2: to party hop and again she didn't know how to

833
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:19,480
Speaker 2: use the dinghy. She was afraid of the water, especially

834
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:21,440
Speaker 2: in the dark, and she was wearing a nightgown and

835
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:23,520
Speaker 2: socks and a coat and that was it. So it

836
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:25,360
Speaker 2: didn't hold water. And I think that really kind of

837
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:30,080
Speaker 2: triggered Lona woods decades long suspicion of this whole thing.

838
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 2: So yeah, like you said, the family's been divided basically

839
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 2: ever since, and the whole thing is still it's an

840
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:42,440
Speaker 2: open case. It's unsolved, but they've exhausted all the leads

841
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:45,239
Speaker 2: that came out of the twenty eleven re examination of it,

842
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:47,879
Speaker 2: so it's essentially back on the shelf for now.

843
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 3: Yeah.

844
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:51,319
Speaker 2: Pretty nuts, man, it is.

845
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:53,799
Speaker 3: It's a story that I think we will never know

846
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:57,960
Speaker 3: truly what happened Wagner's in his nineties unless there's some

847
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 3: sort of deathbed confession from he or Chris Walkin, like

848
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 3: it's going to go to their graves. I would imagine.

849
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:09,800
Speaker 2: I don't know, man, because think about it, after Kirk Douglas,

850
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:14,280
Speaker 2: Lana Wood named him as the as her sister's rapist

851
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:16,960
Speaker 2: when she was sixteen. So I'm wondering if one of

852
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:19,919
Speaker 2: these people are going to say, here finally is the evidence. Yes,

853
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:23,399
Speaker 2: Robert Wagner totally killed Natalie Wood, and now that he's dead,

854
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:25,799
Speaker 2: I feel comfortable explaining how. Who knows.

855
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 3: I think it's a possibility, but it would have to

856
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:30,719
Speaker 3: be a recording of him saying that, otherwise it would

857
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:34,360
Speaker 3: just be another person saying, well, he told me, sure, sure,

858
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:37,120
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. Like, the only three people

859
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 3: that know what happened are Daborn, Walkin and Wagner.

860
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:44,359
Speaker 2: Right, and all Walkin wants to do is focus on

861
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:48,800
Speaker 2: cow bell and dance. I would say, probably the most

862
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:51,759
Speaker 2: important clue out of this whole thing, though, Chuck, is

863
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:55,360
Speaker 2: that Robert Wagner and Dennis Davern switched to Scotch on

864
00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:56,040
Speaker 2: the bridge.

865
00:47:56,719 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 3: Is that the one? Yeah, that's a that's a powered

866
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:02,880
Speaker 3: drinking move late at night, for sure. I've seen it happen.

867
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:05,040
Speaker 2: Do you have anything else?

868
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:07,360
Speaker 3: I got nothing else. It's just tragic story.

869
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:09,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the thing to remember.

870
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:12,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know it was. It's easy to get caught

871
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:15,160
Speaker 3: up in this Hollywood mystery, but there was a real

872
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 3: human with a family that died. And I hope people

873
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:20,880
Speaker 3: don't forget that. And I hope we were respectful.

874
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we were. That's a rule of thumb.

875
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 2: For all true crime stuff. You know.

876
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:26,200
Speaker 3: Absolutely.

877
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:29,799
Speaker 2: Well, since Chuck said absolutely, I'm going to end on

878
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:32,800
Speaker 2: a high note for me and we'll go to a listener.

879
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:33,000
Speaker 1: Man.

880
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:38,000
Speaker 3: Hey, guys, this is one from a long time ago

881
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 3: actually that I forgot to read from Gareth. I was

882
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 3: listening to the Diaries episode and thought you guys might

883
00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:46,239
Speaker 3: like to hear about ingratitude lists because we were talking

884
00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:49,600
Speaker 3: about gratitude lists when I was working in mental health support.

885
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 3: We learned about them and the basic premises sometimes your

886
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:54,440
Speaker 3: life is full of problems and you feel terrible. It's

887
00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:57,839
Speaker 3: not always that helpful to be told to write down

888
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:00,840
Speaker 3: what you feel grateful for, and some people find it

889
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:03,600
Speaker 3: a bit like their problems aren't being taken seriously or

890
00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:07,040
Speaker 3: being brushed under the rug. So sometimes it can actually

891
00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:09,600
Speaker 3: be helpful to write down everything that's wrong, everything is

892
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:12,279
Speaker 3: hurting you or generally just taking you off, as a

893
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:16,239
Speaker 3: way to vent and hopefully understand why you feel, why

894
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:18,319
Speaker 3: you feel how you feel, and possibly being able to

895
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:20,719
Speaker 3: process it and make a plan on how to change it.

896
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:21,719
Speaker 2: Nice.

897
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:23,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, anyway, I thought it could be of interest to

898
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 3: you and potentially helpful to some listeners who have a

899
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:31,239
Speaker 3: lot going on To feel vindicated in their distress. And

900
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:33,600
Speaker 3: just to be clear, it's not about dwelling on the bad.

901
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:36,719
Speaker 3: It's mostly about just being able to say, yeah, fair

902
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 3: play me, I'm dealing with a lot nice.

903
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:44,359
Speaker 2: That's really awesome, And that is from again, Gareth. Thanks

904
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:46,839
Speaker 2: a lot, Gareth. I would say Gareth is sitting in

905
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:49,440
Speaker 2: the best recent email chair for now. Huh.

906
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:50,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a good one.

907
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was a very good one. Thanks for letting

908
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:54,360
Speaker 2: everybody know about that, because I'm sure there are some

909
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:56,600
Speaker 2: people out there that listen to that Diaries episode and

910
00:49:56,640 --> 00:50:00,680
Speaker 2: thought the very same thing, and now they're vindicated undismissed.

911
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:03,040
Speaker 2: If you want to be like Gareth and try or

912
00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:06,239
Speaker 2: shot at being in the best recent email chair, you

913
00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:09,080
Speaker 2: can do that. Send it off to Stuff Podcasts at

914
00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:14,720
Speaker 2: iHeartRadio dot com. Stuff you Should Know is a production

915
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:18,319
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the

916
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:21,640
Speaker 2: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your

917
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:22,400
Speaker 2: favorite shows.