1 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Emily, and you're listening to stuff mom 2 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: never told you. Today, we wanted to kick off a 3 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:25,840 Speaker 1: new mini series all about role overload. We're going to 4 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: dive into what exactly role overload is in just a second, 5 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: but it is our take on the work life balance conversation, 6 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 1: if you will, even though I don't love that term, 7 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 1: but insert I roll here, because everybody knows that the 8 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:44,599 Speaker 1: whole work life balance conversation, as much as I am 9 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 1: obsessed with it, is inherently flawed when you frame it 10 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: that way. So instead, we're going to talk about the 11 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: many roles that women play in society, at work, in 12 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: our families and how sometimes those can be put at 13 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 1: odds and can lead to a lot of str ress. 14 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: Today we're gonna zoom in on and really focus on 15 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: the role of working daughter with a guest who I 16 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: know you're gonna love to hear from in just a 17 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 1: little bit, who has studied this issue, who has lived 18 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 1: this issue, and who's going to help us understand what 19 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:17,639 Speaker 1: it really means to be a working daughter in today's world, 20 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: and why we need so much more support and conversation 21 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 1: for women, especially women in their forties, who are juggling 22 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: paid work, child rearing, and elder care. Something I sound 23 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:34,039 Speaker 1: so fascinating about this is that role overload really is 24 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: this term to describe this feeling of wearing many hats right. 25 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 1: Where daughters, where wives, where mothers were employees, were sisters, 26 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:45,039 Speaker 1: were friends, were all of these things. This is a lot, right, 27 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 1: This is a lot to juggle, and sometimes these things 28 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: can actually be in conflict with each other. And that's 29 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: when you have what we call role conflict. That's not 30 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 1: just juggling many things. You feel like you can't be 31 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 1: a good employee and also be a good daughter. You 32 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 1: feel like you can't be a good mother and also 33 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: be a good something else. It's a sense that all 34 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 1: of these roles and all of these hats that women 35 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 1: find themselves wearing day to day are really not working 36 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: well together. Yeah, it feels like you're being pulled in 37 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:13,520 Speaker 1: every direction. And I think that's like the birthplace of guilt, right, 38 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: This very social emotion of letting someone else down, or 39 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 1: letting yourself down, not living up to the mom you 40 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:24,080 Speaker 1: knew you could be, or the great employee you could be. 41 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 1: It's like acknowledging that you're giving instead of can be 42 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 1: such a source of strife and guilt and stress for 43 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 1: the women I work with especially, And I was just 44 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 1: gonna say, at least in my mind, this is what 45 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:41,240 Speaker 1: causes burnout. Right, you spend every waking moment feeling like 46 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:43,640 Speaker 1: you're letting someone down. So if you're kicking ass with 47 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 1: your husband and you're not being a good employee, if 48 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:47,920 Speaker 1: you're kicking ass with your parents and you're being a 49 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 1: great daughter, then you're letting your kid down. Right. If 50 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 1: you spend all day, every day feeling like you're letting 51 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 1: somebody down, that you're dropping some ball in the equation 52 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 1: from something somewhere, something is being left up, and if 53 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 1: your fault, like in a far away land, you can 54 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 1: just feel it's always nacking at you. That's what burnout is, Yeah, 55 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's a sense of chronic stress. I mean, 56 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: we could dive deeper into burnout, you know. I love 57 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:15,800 Speaker 1: that tomic, but but it's just it's interesting that the 58 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 1: roles that we as women have played, especially in American society, 59 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:21,679 Speaker 1: over the last hundred years, have shifted. Right, So these 60 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: concepts of rolloverload and especially the stress inducing feeling of 61 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: role conflict, they're relatively new in that if you think 62 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 1: about when women first entered the workforce in Mass, and yes, 63 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: that was a very white, a very middle class resurgence 64 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: because many women who weren't white in middle class have 65 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 1: been working for a lot longer. But post World War two, 66 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 1: women enter the workforce and Mass for the first time. 67 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: It's not like they're not also expected to have a 68 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: great Thanksgiving dinner on the table. To write, right, is 69 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: not like our roles changed. We didn't become male like 70 00:03:56,080 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: the stereotypical male model of the gender role. Didn't just 71 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 1: flip a switch. It just was another layer added on 72 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: to our expectation. Congratulations, ladies, welcome to the workforce. Enjoy 73 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: your like added you're compounded roles and obligations to society. 74 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 1: And I think it is interesting how men's roles are 75 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 1: starting to change a lot more. Right, we've seen men 76 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:20,920 Speaker 1: do more around the house than ever before. We talked 77 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 1: to in our men missier than women about the numbers 78 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,599 Speaker 1: on cleanliness. Guess what the data is in men are 79 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 1: still less likely to be cleaning than the women in 80 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 1: their lives. But this feeling of role conflict is inherent 81 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:38,920 Speaker 1: to what the female role model has been and what 82 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 1: this idea of like what it means to be a 83 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 1: good woman in today's society can leave women feeling this 84 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 1: sense of being in a double bind right feeling guilt 85 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 1: stricken and worried about personal matters while at work and 86 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:53,039 Speaker 1: worried about work stuff while you're at home. So you 87 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:54,920 Speaker 1: never get a break. Really, if you're if you're feeling 88 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 1: guilty at work because you're dropping the ball at home, 89 00:04:57,440 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 1: and then you're at home you're feeling guilty because you're 90 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: dropping the ball at work. You're just feeling like crap 91 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 1: all the time, never getting a break. It's almost why 92 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 1: I love my weird schedule right now, which is like 93 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 1: super concentrated work binges when I'm on the road, and 94 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:13,600 Speaker 1: then I'm very chill when I'm at home and I'm 95 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 1: much more present. I'm mindful about being present with my partner. 96 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:19,160 Speaker 1: But when I go home for the holidays, y'all, this 97 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 1: probably this could not have been a better timed episode, 98 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 1: because buckle up, get ready for Thanksgiving, get ready for 99 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 1: the holidays. At home, that is when I am statistically 100 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 1: most likely to cry out of feeling like a failure. 101 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 1: Because my family, first of all, there's a lot of 102 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:36,720 Speaker 1: them you know the you know, the right of us 103 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:40,839 Speaker 1: if like without partners included, so there's more than six 104 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 1: of us around the table, and it always goes like this, Emily, 105 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:44,839 Speaker 1: what am I going to get some face time with you? 106 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 1: I know you're a hot shot, I know you're really important, 107 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 1: blah blah blah, but when are you gonna have time 108 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:52,040 Speaker 1: for dear old dad? And my my dad will lay 109 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: this guilt roup on me and I'm like, Okay, I'm 110 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: gonna walk with mom because I'm gonna spend some time 111 00:05:57,400 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 1: with her, and then like dad wants to go to 112 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 1: the movies to other We're all going to be together 113 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 1: all the time. And God forbid you should have to 114 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 1: answer an email like in a corner of the house 115 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 1: alone for any minute at all. Do you know what 116 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 1: I'm talking about? No, this is like I feel like 117 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:12,599 Speaker 1: you're speaking my language. My family, God love them, and 118 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: they're all insane and they really like guilt is like 119 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:19,839 Speaker 1: a currency. I just it's really you know, I could 120 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:22,839 Speaker 1: talk all day, but I completely feel you, um, and 121 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 1: I think it really is about binding balance. What I 122 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 1: like about your situation is that you sort of if 123 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:29,839 Speaker 1: you look at your you know, a calendar month or something. 124 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 1: It's like, these are my intense work times where I'm 125 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: very focused. These are my home times where I'm very chill. 126 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 1: These are times where I'm going to be guilt stricken 127 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 1: because it's Thanksgiving and I'm feeling all kinds of feelings 128 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 1: and I'm getting you know, but at least it's not 129 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 1: like a constant calendar year of guilt, That's what I'm saying. 130 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:47,599 Speaker 1: At least you've got it like segmented. I've I've become 131 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 1: methodological about it because that's who I am, as you know. 132 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:54,279 Speaker 1: So now there's like a certain hours cap on how 133 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:57,159 Speaker 1: long Emily can be at home with with the full 134 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 1: family who I love. By the way, Hi mom um, 135 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 1: but it is you know, you have to know your boundaries. 136 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 1: And I think, honestly for me, being assertive, being unapologetic 137 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: about my boundaries, standing up for myself much easier to 138 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 1: do in a professional setting than in home in my relationship. 139 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 1: Well that's because your you know, your clients didn't give 140 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 1: birth to you, I don't think, right, So it's like 141 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: you know you can. It's from how the from how 142 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 1: the guilt is different. Yeah, it's like, well, these people 143 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: are paying me to do a job for them. I'm 144 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: going to do the job and then set some boundaries 145 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: that make my ability to do that job more efficient. 146 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 1: I know what I need to do to do a 147 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 1: great job for them. They want me to do a 148 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: great job. It's a give and take with your family. 149 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: It's like all collapsed, right, and then it's got that 150 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 1: added layer of guilt because they had you, they raised. Yeah, 151 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 1: the flip side of love, which is like guilt. But 152 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 1: you know, it turns out this this experience is far 153 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: from unique because in a recent study from m I. T. 154 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: S Working Family Institute, in households with both men and 155 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: women were working full time, women reported feeling preoccupied and 156 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 1: thinking about work thirty four percent of the time while 157 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 1: at home it's a lot, that's a kind of a lot, 158 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: whereas men reported feeling that way only about twenty five 159 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 1: percent of the time. Surprise, surprise, women are feeling a 160 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 1: tighter squeeze when it comes to feeling guilty when they're 161 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: about work when they're at home. Yeah, And it's interesting 162 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: because isn't a great percentage either, Like why in this country? 163 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 1: This is a very American centric study, by the way, 164 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 1: and it feels like a very American centric problem. Why 165 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: is unplugging so rare? I think it's no surprising. I 166 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: think it's part of it. It's because we glorify not unplugging. 167 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:42,959 Speaker 1: The research is pretty clear that women tend to feel 168 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 1: that extra pressure of staying hyper vigilant on top of work, 169 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 1: which doesn't surprise me either. If you think about how 170 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:52,320 Speaker 1: women are chronically discriminated against in the workplace, right in 171 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: a world that doesn't even pay women equally for equal work, 172 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: in a world that passes over women for promotions, it 173 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 1: doesn't surprise me that when women are at home and 174 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:04,080 Speaker 1: are technically not working, that we are still more preoccupied 175 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 1: with work. What I found fascinating, and this isn't the 176 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 1: world of organizational psychology where these terms like roll conflict 177 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 1: and roll overload come from, is this spillover effect that 178 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 1: feeling of being stressed out about one part of your 179 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 1: life while trying to focus on another is even more 180 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 1: prominent for men when it comes to the opposite direction. 181 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: So women are more likely to be preoccupied about work 182 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:32,359 Speaker 1: when they're at home men if they have a conflict 183 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 1: in their personal lives, if they had a fight with 184 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: their partner, if they are experiencing some kind of personal stress. 185 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:43,560 Speaker 1: Men are much more likely to experience that spillover of 186 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:46,839 Speaker 1: stress while trying to be at work. See that doesn't 187 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 1: surprise me at all. And here's why. So this is 188 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:53,560 Speaker 1: completely my anecdotal opinion things I've seen. I feel like 189 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 1: women are socialized a lot more to do a lot 190 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 1: of emotional self reflection, and so if I have a 191 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:01,720 Speaker 1: big fight with my mom, it's just in my nature 192 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 1: to talk to a friend about it, to spend time 193 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 1: thinking about it, you know, processing it. I feel like 194 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 1: men are not socialized to do that, right. The idea 195 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:11,559 Speaker 1: of women getting together with their girlfriends and talking about 196 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 1: boyfriend trouble, husband trouble, whatever, that's a common thing in 197 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 1: their culture. Men not so much. And so I feel 198 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:19,840 Speaker 1: like it's that, at least in my opinion. I think 199 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 1: it's that attitude that women have other outlets to process 200 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:26,079 Speaker 1: and deal with personal stressors, that they're not breaking it 201 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 1: into the office. Also added to that is that the 202 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 1: idea that women, you know, if you if you have 203 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:32,200 Speaker 1: a bad day with your husband and come into the 204 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 1: office upset, we have that added stereotype of being like, oh, 205 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 1: she's emotional, she's crazy. Blah blah blah. I feel like 206 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 1: all of these ways that were socialized differently as men 207 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:44,079 Speaker 1: and women. That's why that explains why men are more 208 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 1: likely to bring their personal stress into the office, because 209 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 1: they're not socialized to have an outlet. Talk to your friends, 210 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 1: like be like spend some time processing. You know, women, 211 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 1: that's all over taught. You know, you're taught that, like 212 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 1: you're supposed to be. Yeah, when a guy sends you 213 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 1: a text, the joke is like, oh, you're like analyzing 214 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 1: it with your girlfriends for an hour, right, Like that 215 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 1: is what you're taught. I feel like I love this 216 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 1: piece of data though, because it flies in the face 217 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 1: of that sort of commonly repeated stereotype that men are 218 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 1: somehow better at compartmentalizing. It's not that simple. It's just 219 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 1: not that simple. I think the idea that we all 220 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 1: experience some kind of spillover of stress between the roles 221 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,560 Speaker 1: that we play is an important baseline to acknowledge. The 222 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 1: other thing that this research really pushes back on is 223 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 1: this idea that role overload means women should just stop working, 224 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:37,319 Speaker 1: right because someone might look at this data and say, well, 225 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 1: if you're trying to be everything to everyone, and that's 226 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 1: causing role conflict. Women should just get back in the kitchen, 227 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:45,679 Speaker 1: you know, check out of the office, like because we 228 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 1: are or like want to be not working either or 229 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: right there are literally there are parts of the internet 230 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 1: that are like poor women, like they shouldn't be forced 231 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 1: to work anymore, take a load off, get back in 232 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 1: the kitchen, get back to child wearing. That sort of 233 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 1: most benevolent version of sexism. And the research actually shows 234 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 1: that working women, working mothers in particular, are more likely 235 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 1: to have higher rates of happiness than women who don't 236 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 1: work at all. I believe that's so easily. I mean, 237 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:16,559 Speaker 1: my mom is a doctor and she's the best. But 238 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:19,079 Speaker 1: when I was growing up, I would often look at 239 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: my classmates who had stay at home moms, and I 240 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:23,200 Speaker 1: was a little like envious and be like, oh, they 241 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 1: always have baller, you know, lunches packed for them, and 242 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 1: like all these all those little things that you notice 243 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:29,560 Speaker 1: as a kid, and you know, shout out to stay 244 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 1: at home moms. Nothing wrong with that at all, But 245 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: I know that I know my mom. She would be 246 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:36,839 Speaker 1: miserable as as I stay at home mom. I know her. 247 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 1: She would be twitching, she would be turning the lives 248 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 1: of her children into her job and a kind of 249 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 1: in a way that's not healthy. She needs that outlet. 250 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 1: That's part of her identity as a woman, that's part 251 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 1: of who she is. And so I look at someone 252 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 1: like my mom who would be so miserable as I 253 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 1: stay at home mom. And so this idea that oh, 254 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 1: all of your problems will evaporate if you just stopped working, 255 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 1: that advice clearly doesn't work for everybody exactly. And so 256 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: in this series, we really want to look at role 257 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 1: overload in terms of, Okay, when is it that tipping 258 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 1: point moment? Because the many rules that we wear are 259 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:13,959 Speaker 1: often core to our identities. Just like you were saying, 260 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 1: you know, I recently attended a friend's wedding and hearing 261 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: the people who were giving speeches say, you know, I 262 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 1: know this person from their role in the community theater, 263 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:28,479 Speaker 1: their role running for local office, their role as a campaigner, 264 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 1: their role as a professional. You know, the many different 265 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:35,320 Speaker 1: outlets and identifiers and activities that these two folks do 266 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:37,840 Speaker 1: that makes them such an amazing couple. That's core to 267 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: who they are as individuals. But what is that tipping 268 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 1: point into the role overload domain at which point society 269 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 1: makes it really freaking hard for you to be able 270 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: to achieve your full potential at work. And the first 271 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 1: in this series that we really want to dive into 272 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 1: is often missed completely. I mean it's almost invisible. It's 273 00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 1: completely invisible, because we hear a lot about working mothers, 274 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:04,080 Speaker 1: but what we hear less about is working daughters. And 275 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 1: after this quick break, we're going to hear from my friend, 276 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 1: author Liz O'Donnell, who's going to shove light and what 277 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:17,440 Speaker 1: it looks like to be a working daughter in America today. 278 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 1: And we're back and we are so excited to dive 279 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 1: into this topic of what it really means to be 280 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 1: a working daughter. Now bringing some expertise on this issue 281 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 1: is my friend, author, speaker, an award winning blogger, Liz O'Donnell. 282 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 1: Liz is the author of her book Mogul, Mom and Maide, 283 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 1: The Balancing Act of the Modern Woman, and she is 284 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 1: a recognized expert on balancing elder care and a career. 285 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 1: She's written about these issues in the Atlantic Time, Next 286 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 1: Avenue USA. Today, she's been interviewed by w n y 287 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 1: C our pals over at w n YC and a 288 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 1: lot of other fabulous radio shows and podcasts now, including 289 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 1: stuff Mom Never tells you. Liz, We're so glad you 290 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 1: could join us today. Thanks so much for having me, Emily. 291 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 1: So tell us what does working daughters that term really 292 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 1: mean to you? Well, to me, it means women who 293 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 1: are balancing elder care and career. It occurred to me 294 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 1: when I was out promoting my book about working mothers, 295 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 1: and I had this like one heck of a day 296 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 1: that started at six and ended at eleven, and in 297 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 1: between it took my mother to the doctor and to 298 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 1: get medication and help my dad driving home at eleven 299 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 1: o'clock that night, I'm like, Okay, working mothers, yep, that's 300 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 1: that's an issue when we need to deal with it. 301 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 1: But working daughters are out there too, and nobody's talking 302 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 1: about them. Yeah, working daughters, right, So many of us, 303 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 1: I think, immediately identify like, yeah, I'm a working daughter, 304 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 1: but it doesn't necessarily become a huge role that we 305 00:15:55,560 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 1: are identifying with until our parents get a little older exactly. Liz, 306 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: I'm curious, can you describe a bit about the extra 307 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 1: burden that these working daughter's face when they're when they're 308 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: sort of juggling all these different roles and in the 309 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 1: workplace and with their family obligations. What does that look like? 310 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 1: What does it look like to be a working daughter. Well, 311 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: the typical family caregiver is a woman in her mitchell 312 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: late forties, and she's got at least one parent who's 313 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 1: UM sixty five or older. She's got at least one 314 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 1: kid at home eighteen or younger. She works, and UM 315 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: probably spend they say an average of twenty hours a 316 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 1: week on elder care too. So I mean, you know, 317 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 1: there's the fact that she has three jobs, if you will, right, 318 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 1: she has a paid job, she has the parenting job, 319 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 1: and then she has the elder care job and UM. 320 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 1: And the fact that this is hitting so many women 321 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 1: at the time it does like forties, early fifties, you know, 322 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 1: that's that's when we're in our final push on our 323 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 1: peak earning years. UM, that's when we run the risk 324 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 1: and if we leave work and we try to come back, 325 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 1: chances are really good to bad. I should say, right 326 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 1: that we're going to be rehired. So there's a lot 327 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 1: of fear and pressure to make all of those rules 328 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:11,640 Speaker 1: work at once. UM. And these are women who they're 329 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 1: not just driving their parents to the doctors. They're they're 330 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 1: administering meds, They're doing lots of medical tasks. They're doing 331 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:22,880 Speaker 1: you know, wound care and injections and changing feeding tubes, 332 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,119 Speaker 1: and I mean, it's stuff for you. You kind of 333 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 1: like to think that the medical industry is handling this stuff, 334 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 1: but you've got family members who are handling this stuff. Well. 335 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:33,200 Speaker 1: That was one of the things I've found so fascinating 336 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 1: in your article for The Atlantic called the Crisis facing 337 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 1: America's Working Daughters, is that when it comes to being 338 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:41,879 Speaker 1: a parent, there's no kind of shifting of understanding of 339 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 1: roles when it comes to childcare responsibilities. Because when you 340 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 1: have a kid, you understand that you are a parent 341 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 1: that's going to involve, you know, giving medicine, changing diapers 342 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 1: and all of that. But when you're talking about being 343 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:55,440 Speaker 1: a working daughter and taking care of, you know what, 344 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: an aging parent, no one really talks about what that 345 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 1: actually looks like. Changing diaper, is, administering medicine, giving shots, 346 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:05,440 Speaker 1: wound care, things that can be kind of heavy and emotional. 347 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:10,440 Speaker 1: There's no sort of corresponding emotional weight associated with doing 348 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:13,160 Speaker 1: those things for a child. Yet here we are not 349 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 1: talking about that extra sort of layer of of heaviness 350 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,400 Speaker 1: and emotions when it comes to that that very real 351 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 1: role reversal. Yeah, but talk about stuff mom never told you, right, Yeah, Seriously, 352 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:29,920 Speaker 1: it's such a psychological moment when you have to recognize 353 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 1: that your parents, who you turn to and rely on 354 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:37,159 Speaker 1: for support emotional and otherwise, are now not in a 355 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:39,920 Speaker 1: position to support you, but beyond that, are in need 356 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:42,199 Speaker 1: of your support and return. So you write about the 357 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 1: sort of added psychological stress that can come with navigating 358 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: a role transition like that. Can you tell us about 359 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 1: how that was presented in your life? While while you 360 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 1: were starting to tackle these issues in the public domain, 361 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 1: this became very personal for you, didn't it. Yeah, it 362 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 1: really did. I was I mean, And so what happened 363 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 1: is too so many caregivers. That happened to me is 364 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:05,680 Speaker 1: what they call the caregiver creeps. So your parents start 365 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:08,680 Speaker 1: to aige you may be the adult child who lives 366 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:11,239 Speaker 1: near them or for whatever reason, you know, takes on 367 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 1: some responsibility and so you start with, you know, maybe 368 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 1: mowing their lawn or helping them around the house, saying 369 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,679 Speaker 1: to the doctor, doing the grocery shopping, and so it 370 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 1: creeps up on you until you don't realize that you 371 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:26,439 Speaker 1: are the caregiver. And then for me Um, both of 372 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:28,440 Speaker 1: my parents got sick at the same time, so they 373 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 1: were actually both diagnosed with terminal illnesses on the same day. 374 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 1: I went from one hospital and heard Alzheimer's and then 375 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 1: to the next hospital and they said stage four O 376 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:41,119 Speaker 1: variant cancer. So my my story is a little crazy. 377 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 1: But yeah, all of a sudden, you're in it, and 378 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 1: you don't know that your friends are in it. I mean, 379 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 1: one of the things that was really interesting to me 380 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: is I have a friend Um, who I know through parenting. 381 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 1: You know, we both wrote blogs, we were both in 382 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 1: the Listen to Your Mother's show, which gives voice and 383 00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: mother's experiences. Had no idea that we also have this 384 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 1: daughter hood connection until later when we started talking about it. 385 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 1: You just don't know that other people are in it 386 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: with you because it's not a really fun thing to 387 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 1: talk about. You're talking about disease, you're talking about dying, 388 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 1: and these are things that you know, respectable people don't 389 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 1: talk about out in public. So that's a big part 390 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 1: of it. The other part of it is, you know, 391 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: they talk about a role reversal where you go from 392 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 1: being the daughter and it's your parents that you look 393 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:26,680 Speaker 1: to to sort of provide all kinds of support to you, 394 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 1: mostly you know, emotional and just being the grown up, right, 395 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:32,120 Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, you're the grown up 396 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 1: and that's that's a big reversal that you have to navigate. 397 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:37,880 Speaker 1: And at the same time, if you're doing it well anyway, 398 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:41,440 Speaker 1: you're being respectful of your parents autonomy. So it's not 399 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 1: like you know a baby who you say, well, you 400 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:46,439 Speaker 1: don't even have to say, you just show up at 401 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 1: Dickcare and drop them off after you you know, vet 402 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 1: at them. Because but because you're not gonna have a 403 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: conversation with a three months old though I'm going back 404 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 1: to work and you're gonna be at this place. Do 405 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:55,719 Speaker 1: you like it? But you have to have that conversation 406 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 1: with the parents. They're adults and they need to have 407 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 1: some economy and choice. Yeah. Some thing that that struck 408 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 1: me in the story that you were just telling about 409 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 1: your own experiences is bonding with other people who are 410 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 1: in that same situation. How important would you say it's 411 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 1: been for you to have a community of folks going 412 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:13,720 Speaker 1: through the same situation in terms of dealing with this. 413 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 1: Is that something that has kind of helped ease the 414 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 1: burden of this a bit or just having someone who 415 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:20,119 Speaker 1: you know is going through that same experience. Is that 416 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 1: something that folks should seek out if they are struggling 417 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 1: with elder care and balancing all these roles. Yeah, I 418 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 1: think it's huge, um, And that's part of the reason 419 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:31,119 Speaker 1: I started the website Working Daughter, and I care a 420 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 1: lot about labeling things right because if labels like working 421 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:39,199 Speaker 1: daughter or family caregiver, they give you a vocabulary. Vocabulary 422 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:41,199 Speaker 1: leads to dialogue. And I think it's so important that 423 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 1: we you know, we don't go through this alone. It's 424 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:45,920 Speaker 1: um not a team sport right now the way that 425 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:47,520 Speaker 1: we handle it, but I think it really should be. 426 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, just like parenting, it takes a village, um. 427 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:53,480 Speaker 1: But if you're not talking about it, if other people 428 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:55,399 Speaker 1: aren't talking about you don't know where to go to 429 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 1: get that support and that structure that you need. I 430 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 1: run a pride a Facebook group and they're about five 431 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty women in there, um, and it is 432 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 1: just amazing. You know, some days are busier than others, 433 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:09,880 Speaker 1: so you don't look at the group and you come 434 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:12,479 Speaker 1: home late at night and you see the conversations that 435 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: these women and there are men and there too are 436 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:19,640 Speaker 1: having and the way that they validate each other's experiences, 437 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 1: share so generously their own experiences and advice. It's just 438 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,439 Speaker 1: kind of phenomenal. And I mean, of course we need that. 439 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:30,200 Speaker 1: And I think one of the things that's so valuable 440 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:33,440 Speaker 1: in there is there are so many stigmas around UM 441 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:37,679 Speaker 1: caregiving and the feelings that you have UM. You know, 442 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 1: you can be really resisting the day that you're no 443 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:44,920 Speaker 1: longer going to have a parent, but also wondering when 444 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:47,119 Speaker 1: you caregiving years are going to be over. You know, 445 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 1: so these these two thoughts can be happening at once, 446 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 1: and it can sound awful that you know, you're supposed 447 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 1: to be this loving daughter, you're not supposed to be 448 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 1: thinking when is this going to end? Because you know 449 00:22:57,800 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 1: what the end looks like, but it's very real and 450 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: there so there are these thoughts that we have that 451 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:05,400 Speaker 1: maybe the general population or people who haven't been through 452 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 1: it might think or you know, scandalous, but we know 453 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 1: that's just a natural part of caregiving, and so you 454 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:13,440 Speaker 1: have to have space to have that conversation, and it's 455 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:17,719 Speaker 1: amazing to me that there are so few spaces and 456 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 1: communities where folks who are really primary caregivers for elders 457 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 1: can find that kind of camaraderie in a country where 458 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 1: there are forty four million estimated forty four million unpaid 459 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,679 Speaker 1: elder care providers, and we know that the majority of 460 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:36,199 Speaker 1: those folks are women. So how does that break down? Like, 461 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:39,360 Speaker 1: why do you think this is especially salient for women 462 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: who we know still shoulder the majority of housework and 463 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 1: childcare duties. You know, what does this look like when 464 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 1: it comes to impacting women's earnings because the majority of 465 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:53,160 Speaker 1: elder care seems to fall on women's shoulders as well. Well. 466 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 1: I think that is part of the reason it feels 467 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:58,160 Speaker 1: like early days around the conversation. I mean, there are 468 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 1: lots of great caregiving in general resources out there. My 469 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 1: own experience of many of them was that they assumed 470 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 1: sort of a lead it to beaver um, you know, 471 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: family dynamic and lifestyle, and that we all went into 472 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: this um. You know what a gift? Isn't this wonderful? 473 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:15,879 Speaker 1: What a blessing? And it doesn't always feel like that, 474 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: especially when you're working full time. You have kids and 475 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:20,399 Speaker 1: you know you're going out of your mind. It doesn't 476 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,639 Speaker 1: always feel like a blessing. Um, But there wasn't a 477 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,879 Speaker 1: lot that I found of practical advice for this, this 478 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: working daughter. And I'm sure that just speaks to you, know, 479 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:30,719 Speaker 1: how long women have been at work and how long 480 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:32,960 Speaker 1: was in primary bread letters and all that good stuff. 481 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 1: But the earning impact is, you know, it's really important 482 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:39,160 Speaker 1: that we think about this because you know, I mentioned 483 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,440 Speaker 1: that the average caregiver is a woman in her forties, 484 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 1: so you really run a great risk if you leave 485 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:48,679 Speaker 1: the workforce about re entering. You also are probably experiencing 486 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,719 Speaker 1: this compound effect, you know, so you may have already 487 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,399 Speaker 1: been affected at work by working fatherhood. You know, that 488 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 1: could mean have you've been mommy tracked or passed over 489 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: for plumb opportunities. You might be you know, lingering in 490 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:04,120 Speaker 1: middle management for the rest of your days. Um, probably 491 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,160 Speaker 1: making less on the dollar than your male peers. Alright, 492 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,439 Speaker 1: so all the things we know women experience as the 493 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 1: result of being mothers in the workplace, and now all 494 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 1: of a sudden you're vulnerable again at a really critical 495 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 1: age and time in your career, and once again you 496 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 1: need flexibility once again, you need paid time off once again. 497 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,159 Speaker 1: You could be passing up opportunities for plumb assignments. And 498 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 1: it feels really stressful that you're going to be able 499 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 1: to hang on to that career at a time when 500 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 1: it's so critical to hang onto your career and if 501 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 1: you don't. You know, they estimate that women lose around 502 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 1: three hundred thousand dollars in lifetime earnings, wages, and benefits 503 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:44,639 Speaker 1: as a result of eldercare. We're going to live longer 504 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:47,240 Speaker 1: than men, We're going to have to fund the longer retirement. So, 505 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 1: I mean, it's just simple math that we need to 506 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 1: keep women at work exactly exactly. I mean, I couldn't 507 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 1: agree more. Um So, you mentioned that the average caregiver 508 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 1: is a woman in her forties, but you also mentioned 509 00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 1: that you actually have men in your Facebook group to 510 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 1: deal with elder care solutions. I'm wondering, like, we know 511 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,159 Speaker 1: that men also help out with Asian parents. What does 512 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 1: it look like for men and how is it different 513 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 1: than what it looks like for women? A lot of times? Yeah, 514 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 1: I mean the statistics, the average statistic I see is 515 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: that caregivers are a men. I've seen as low as twenty, 516 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 1: but I think it's safe to assume around forty because 517 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 1: it's rapidly growing. There are ten thousand people turning sixty 518 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 1: five every day, so um, you know we need all 519 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 1: hands on deck in coming years. So if if men 520 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,879 Speaker 1: aren't caregivers now, you know, really good chance that they 521 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:37,480 Speaker 1: will be soon. Um. I think the challenge. I think 522 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 1: the conversation is very similar to what you see with parents, 523 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:44,159 Speaker 1: right with the working mothers and working fathers were seeing 524 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 1: more conversations in recent years about fatherhood and millennial men 525 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,360 Speaker 1: wanted to be more hands on and have that flexibility. 526 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 1: So I think, you know, similar challenges around elder care 527 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,359 Speaker 1: for the women. Those challenges are the compound effect that 528 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:00,879 Speaker 1: I just talked about. You know, your squeeze the beginning 529 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,399 Speaker 1: of your career, you're squeezed again later Potentially you're in 530 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 1: those vulnerable positions. Um, you know, you may be making 531 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 1: less on the dollar, you may be needing to stay more, etcetera, etcetera. 532 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 1: I think the good thing for women and it's the 533 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,879 Speaker 1: same for working mothers as we have the conversations and 534 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 1: we have the vocabulary and the space to be flexible 535 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 1: and to talk about the impact for men sort of 536 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,720 Speaker 1: the same thing. I think they may not have the 537 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 1: other um crunches on their career as a result of 538 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 1: being men in the workplace, but they may also not 539 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:35,880 Speaker 1: have the same sort of safety and UM's the word. 540 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 1: I'm looking for permission right to talk about the stresses 541 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,880 Speaker 1: of balancing work and family. So there's that for them. Yeah. 542 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 1: I also wonder if the workplace perception is different. You know, 543 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,919 Speaker 1: we talked in an episode called The Mommy Tax about 544 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 1: how women leaving the office to go take care of 545 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,119 Speaker 1: children are seen as less committed, are assumed to be 546 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,879 Speaker 1: less engaged in the office, even though mothers working mothers 547 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,360 Speaker 1: are shown to be some of the most efficient workers 548 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:06,000 Speaker 1: in the entire workforce, whereas working fathers who leave for 549 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 1: the baseball game are seen as like charming, sweet, caring people. 550 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,120 Speaker 1: And I would just wonder, you know they're there. It 551 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 1: does seem like this has more silence and shame around it, 552 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,639 Speaker 1: because no one's bragging about going to pick up your mom, 553 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,120 Speaker 1: you know, at the home to take her for a stroll. 554 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:27,720 Speaker 1: Like it feels like a very hush hush uh workplace conversation. 555 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,680 Speaker 1: And I just wonder if men feel that same kind 556 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 1: of penalty that women do. UM. Clearly there needs to 557 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 1: be more research to really get to the bottom of that. 558 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 1: But I don't know, do you feel like men in 559 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 1: the office might be perceived differently for leaving to go 560 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 1: care for an elder than women? Are you? Personally? I 561 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 1: haven't encountered a ton of men who in the workplace 562 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 1: who we're dealing with this, um, But certainly you know 563 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 1: you you all in and this is anecdotal, this is 564 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 1: not research base but right, I mean, it's the same 565 00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 1: thing that you were saying. There's always the what a 566 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 1: great guy add a boy for the men who step 567 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,520 Speaker 1: up to do family work right versus the woman who 568 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 1: was just expected to do it and makes us crazy. Right. UM. 569 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 1: I was at a panel discussion about a year ago 570 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 1: here in the Boston area. UM. Maybe ten people on 571 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 1: the panel talk doctors from some of the great hospitals here, 572 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 1: or top insurance company executives, top senior living executives. I 573 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: heard the word daughter seven times. I never heard the 574 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 1: words son. So I think that's the other thing. Even 575 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 1: if we are looking at a six split among family caregivers, 576 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 1: the expectation is still that we will be those good 577 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 1: douting daughters and that it's going to be the woman. 578 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 1: We're gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, 579 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 1: we want to dive into what companies and what the 580 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 1: United States can do to make this stress, to make 581 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,480 Speaker 1: this pressure for working daughters a little less stressful. We'll 582 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 1: be right back after a quick word from our sponsors. 583 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 1: We are back with speaker, author and working daughter Liz O'Donnell, 584 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 1: talking all about the double pressure that women with aging 585 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 1: parents and and who are primary caretakers for those aging 586 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 1: parents face, especially in those key income earning years in 587 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 1: our forties when we might also have children still under 588 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 1: our roofs who need our care as well. So as 589 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 1: we've talked a lot about what this problem looks like 590 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 1: and how they can impact men and women, But I'm 591 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 1: curious sort of what's being done or maybe what's not 592 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 1: being done to kind of address this. Yeah, I mean 593 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 1: I would say not enough. Not enough is being done. Um, 594 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 1: I would say I'm encouraged by the conversation. We are 595 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 1: hearing more about elder care UM in the workplace, and 596 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 1: elder care is an issue. So that's good news, that's progress. Um. 597 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 1: Sometimes it's still just a clause in a sentence. You know, 598 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 1: American workers need you know, maternity leaving, maternity lead and 599 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 1: paid leaves. You know, they're squeezed by take care of 600 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 1: children comma and their aging parents comma. And that's all 601 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 1: we're getting. But it's more than nothing, right, um, And 602 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 1: so what I really think, you know, we need to 603 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 1: label this issue. We need to have a national dialogue 604 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 1: around it, and from the work perspective, really make sure 605 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 1: that we're not just talking about the challenges employees who 606 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:25,000 Speaker 1: are parents, but we're talking about employees with parents. I mean, 607 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 1: if you look at the I think the number of 608 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 1: working mothers in the United States is what twenty three 609 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 1: or twenty five million is the estimate. The number of 610 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 1: working daughters is around twenty one million the estimate. So 611 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:38,800 Speaker 1: you know, why aren't we solving for folks? So not 612 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:43,360 Speaker 1: just talking about apparently talking about family leave, not just 613 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 1: talking about affordable childcare, but talk talking about affordable elder care. 614 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 1: You know, not just talking about um mothers ramping back 615 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 1: into the workplace, but what are the re entry programs 616 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:56,239 Speaker 1: for a woman who leaves at four year fifties? So 617 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 1: that's that I think from a workplace is what needs 618 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,480 Speaker 1: to happen. Well, that's exactly why I found it so surprising. 619 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:02,720 Speaker 1: One of the things that you point out in your 620 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 1: Atlantic piece is that the mayor of New York, Build 621 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 1: de Blasio, signed an order giving city employees six weeks 622 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 1: of fully paid leave, which is great, right, like pay 623 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 1: kudos for him, But that leave only applies to the 624 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 1: birth of a child or the adoption of a child, 625 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 1: not for taking care of a six family member. So 626 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 1: it seems like this is just being left out of 627 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 1: the equation that we're talking about family leave and family care, 628 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,960 Speaker 1: which is awesome, but elder care and caring for a 629 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:29,480 Speaker 1: parent is just being left out of that equation and 630 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 1: just sort of as being raised. Yeah, it's been made invisible, 631 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 1: and it seems like such an opportunity for the Democratic Party. 632 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 1: Quite frankly, I'm surprised that this isn't more of a 633 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 1: issue that's been taken up by progressive voices who want 634 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 1: to stand up for working class people, because this is 635 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:52,960 Speaker 1: clearly an economic barrier. You know, we know that medical 636 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 1: expenses are the number one reason for bankruptcy, and if 637 00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 1: we want to look holistically at what the challenges are 638 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 1: that faced the amor, can working people you know, we 639 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 1: need some leadership at least from some wing of some 640 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 1: party to really make elder care an issue, because we're 641 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 1: not going to have an option very soon, are we. 642 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 1: The aging baby boomer generation is I think the great 643 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 1: anxiety of the millennial generation. So totally yeah, how long 644 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 1: can we avoid the inevitable? You know, it's got so depressed. 645 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 1: You know, before the presidential election started, I was really 646 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:33,680 Speaker 1: hopeful that it would be a key issue because you know, 647 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 1: Obama Ronne like motherhood and working mother. It felt like 648 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 1: that was every other word out of their mouth, and 649 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,280 Speaker 1: I was like, okay, so going into you know, we 650 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 1: can hopefully have the candidates talking about elder care. What 651 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 1: a great opportunity to shine a light. But then, of course, 652 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: you know that election, Yeah, we're like all grumbling and 653 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:58,320 Speaker 1: mumbling under our breaths with you. Totally different than anyone expected. 654 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 1: So there was no opportunity, much a missed opportunity for 655 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 1: a lot of things. But I would really disappointed around that. 656 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 1: And then you know, we're spending so much time I think, 657 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,600 Speaker 1: just you know, defending and worrying about what's going to 658 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 1: happen to Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. That we're not 659 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:16,520 Speaker 1: spending enough time UM focused on what progress we can make. 660 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:20,360 Speaker 1: But still that doesn't mean that legislators at the you know, regional, 661 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 1: local level shouldn't be doing more. I think it's a 662 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 1: huge opportunity for someone to step forward and be a 663 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,919 Speaker 1: leader around That's exactly what I was just gonna say that, 664 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:30,760 Speaker 1: you know, even though it seems like at the federal 665 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:32,960 Speaker 1: level or the national level, perhaps we're not getting the 666 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:35,760 Speaker 1: traction that we had hoped on this issue, there's always, always, 667 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:38,879 Speaker 1: always opportunities at the local and hyperlocal level and state level, 668 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 1: and so even if it seems like nationally the dialogue 669 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:43,920 Speaker 1: is not happening, I think that you can really push 670 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,640 Speaker 1: your local lawmakers and local representatives to start making this 671 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:49,799 Speaker 1: an issue, particularly since it seems like a lot of 672 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 1: their constituents are probably dealing with it. Yeah, and I 673 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:55,360 Speaker 1: think that's you know, the big obstacle there. And for 674 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:59,760 Speaker 1: whatever reason, as you said, this debate an invisible issue, 675 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:04,239 Speaker 1: and it's it's sort of like an invisible um demographic, right, 676 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,520 Speaker 1: So the more we can raise awareness that this exists, 677 00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:10,360 Speaker 1: the more we can talk about supporting families and thinking 678 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,680 Speaker 1: about the families who you know, extend multigeneration who are 679 00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:17,720 Speaker 1: carrying up, not just down, only going to help. Yeah, 680 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:21,080 Speaker 1: And what's interesting to me is that if you look 681 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:25,080 Speaker 1: at the migration of older Americans, there's been a big 682 00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:28,080 Speaker 1: exodus last I checked. Last I looked into this of 683 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:32,880 Speaker 1: older Americans moving to states with low property taxes. Right. 684 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:34,880 Speaker 1: I think Florida has always been a bashed in for 685 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:38,200 Speaker 1: the elderly, but so is the Southwest right now, most 686 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 1: of whom are led by Republicans. So I just I 687 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,880 Speaker 1: find it interesting that this is an issue that is 688 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,360 Speaker 1: wide open for either party to take up and to 689 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:51,839 Speaker 1: make solutions possible. On I was impressed and intrigued by 690 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 1: the fact that paid maternity leave, not parental leave, made 691 00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,840 Speaker 1: it to the Republican platform this past election cycle. Maybe 692 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:03,440 Speaker 1: in name only, but um, but it really does seem 693 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:08,880 Speaker 1: like these older folks are also the most reliable voters 694 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:13,040 Speaker 1: in the whole country. So someone if if they are, like, 695 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:16,040 Speaker 1: if we have a politician listening who wants to pander 696 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,359 Speaker 1: to a reliable demographic, like, figure out how we can 697 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,880 Speaker 1: take care of aging Americans, because it seems like an 698 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 1: issue that's just ready to be made mainstream, whether we 699 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:27,319 Speaker 1: like it or not. We're gonna have to find ways 700 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,239 Speaker 1: to talk about this. Yeah, excellent point. I mean, and 701 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,560 Speaker 1: what's it's hard is, you know, we're going to need 702 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:37,080 Speaker 1: the caregivers themselves, right to um, to band together to 703 00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:40,440 Speaker 1: advocate as a group. And I mean they're already carrying 704 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,440 Speaker 1: such a huge burden. I mean, they truly are dealing 705 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:47,800 Speaker 1: with labor death situations every day. But um, it's the 706 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:51,920 Speaker 1: the recently former caregivers like me, hopefully who can make 707 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:53,919 Speaker 1: a difference for the ones who are still coming through. 708 00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:56,720 Speaker 1: I have one more question for you, Liz, how about 709 00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,880 Speaker 1: paid caregivers. You know, I I'm the daughter of a nurse, 710 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,839 Speaker 1: so I'm always thinking about how underpaid caregiving work is 711 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:07,879 Speaker 1: in the labor market too. You've written that that this 712 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:12,440 Speaker 1: issue of being a working daughter is not something you 713 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,880 Speaker 1: can really and truly outsource. It's not something that you 714 00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:18,640 Speaker 1: can finance your way out of, and so it's an 715 00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:22,319 Speaker 1: issue that doesn't just impact certain classes of Americans, really 716 00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:24,759 Speaker 1: impacts all of us. Can you unpack that for us 717 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:27,319 Speaker 1: and sort of explain what you mean by that? Yeah, Well, 718 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:29,840 Speaker 1: part of the reason that it is hard, even if 719 00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:31,319 Speaker 1: you know you've got all the privilege in the world 720 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:33,640 Speaker 1: to throw money as this problem is because you are 721 00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:36,279 Speaker 1: dealing with an adults and who does have autonomy and 722 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:39,560 Speaker 1: say so, um, it's not just the caregiver who has 723 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:41,759 Speaker 1: to be on board, right, it's the parents that you're 724 00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 1: caring borrow has to be on board with whatever solution 725 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 1: that you want to provide for them. But the other 726 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,960 Speaker 1: problem that you started, um, the question with I'm so 727 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:53,759 Speaker 1: glad you brought up is the state of paid caregiving. 728 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:56,799 Speaker 1: And you know, the National Domestic Workers Alliance is doing 729 00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:00,799 Speaker 1: such great and important work around this. Paid caregivers, you know, 730 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:04,359 Speaker 1: are are often excluded from more place protections, um like 731 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:08,160 Speaker 1: minimum wage and paid time off and um. Some states 732 00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:11,080 Speaker 1: have enacted a domestic Workers Bill of Rights, but we 733 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:13,640 Speaker 1: need all states to do that because you know, it's 734 00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:17,680 Speaker 1: sort of like the dialogue around teachers and childcare. These 735 00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:21,400 Speaker 1: are the people who are doing such important work. They're 736 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:24,080 Speaker 1: taking care of our families, They're taking care of people 737 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:27,800 Speaker 1: as their most vulnerable moments, and we're paying them nothing 738 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:31,319 Speaker 1: and they're working several jobs and they go home and 739 00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:34,000 Speaker 1: have to care for their own families. So right there, 740 00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:36,960 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's the one of the most 741 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,560 Speaker 1: important things that we can lean on our legislators to 742 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:42,959 Speaker 1: look at. So where can folks find out more about 743 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,880 Speaker 1: the work that you're doing and more resources on this subject. Uh. 744 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:51,200 Speaker 1: Working daughter dot com is my website and online community 745 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,359 Speaker 1: for other working daughters and sons. Are welcome to. UM 746 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:58,160 Speaker 1: that's the best place. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Liz. 747 00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:00,440 Speaker 1: It has been truly a pleasure thing to know you 748 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:04,920 Speaker 1: these a few years and watching you focus in on 749 00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:08,799 Speaker 1: this subject that needs so much more attention. So thank 750 00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:11,759 Speaker 1: you for being a pioneer and for sharing some of 751 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:15,200 Speaker 1: what stuff Mom never told us with us today. Well, 752 00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:17,720 Speaker 1: thank you both. I appreciate it. So this is actually 753 00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:21,239 Speaker 1: a topic that is very very close to my heart. UM. 754 00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:23,120 Speaker 1: I think I've mentioned on the show on and off 755 00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:25,920 Speaker 1: a couple of times that my dad has a chronic illness. UM. 756 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:27,880 Speaker 1: If you know me, you know that my dad is 757 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:31,719 Speaker 1: basically my hero. Anything good about me and my life 758 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:34,200 Speaker 1: who I am basically comes from him. And so we're 759 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:37,799 Speaker 1: very very close, and probably not a day goes by 760 00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:41,160 Speaker 1: that I don't think about what his life is going 761 00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:43,359 Speaker 1: to look like down the line, and what it's going 762 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:45,239 Speaker 1: to look like for our family down the line. I 763 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:47,759 Speaker 1: think when you're young, it's not something that you think about, 764 00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:49,279 Speaker 1: Like when I was in my twenties, I never thought 765 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:52,600 Speaker 1: about what my dad's end of life situation would look like. 766 00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:54,759 Speaker 1: And he's not anywhere near that. I don't think he's 767 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:58,040 Speaker 1: if you met him, he's the most energetic, spry, life 768 00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:00,440 Speaker 1: living as person you've ever met. So don't don't get 769 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:04,040 Speaker 1: the wrong idea. But once I think a family member 770 00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:07,680 Speaker 1: becomes chronically ill, it like hits you, right, It hits 771 00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:10,960 Speaker 1: you how short life is, and that as a child, 772 00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:13,040 Speaker 1: you will probably have to have some role in this. 773 00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:15,440 Speaker 1: And that was something that had never occurred to me 774 00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:17,560 Speaker 1: when I was in high school in my twenties. It 775 00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:19,399 Speaker 1: wasn't until I found out that my dad was sick 776 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,160 Speaker 1: that this was even the thing on my radar. Did 777 00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:24,520 Speaker 1: it impact like your life directly? Do you feel like 778 00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:27,440 Speaker 1: it's impact of the way you make choices? Yes, I 779 00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:29,560 Speaker 1: never want to be too far away from where my 780 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:31,920 Speaker 1: parents live because if something happens and I want to 781 00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:33,800 Speaker 1: go back right away, I want to be able to 782 00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,680 Speaker 1: get there. And I mean, I'm not even someone who 783 00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:39,560 Speaker 1: visits as much as I should, but I just like knowing, 784 00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:41,719 Speaker 1: you know, hey, if something happened, it wouldn't be a 785 00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,319 Speaker 1: complicated cross country flight. I could happen a car, get 786 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:46,200 Speaker 1: on a train, and be home. I think I made 787 00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:48,680 Speaker 1: a lot of choices based around that. And I think 788 00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:54,480 Speaker 1: if my family knew what an emotional wait this was 789 00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:56,560 Speaker 1: for me and how it impacts a lot of my 790 00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,040 Speaker 1: thinking and choice making and all of that, they would 791 00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:01,759 Speaker 1: be just pointed. They would not want me to be 792 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:04,120 Speaker 1: living my life this way. But it's hard, and I 793 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,160 Speaker 1: think for me, as someone who has only been sort 794 00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:10,040 Speaker 1: of getting to know what this feels like pretty recently 795 00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:12,200 Speaker 1: in life, I think it's a bit of a balancing 796 00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:14,640 Speaker 1: act of like how you make heads or tails of 797 00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:17,920 Speaker 1: this new thing that frankly you never thought you were 798 00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:22,239 Speaker 1: gonna be dealing with and your pre caretaking, right, this 799 00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:24,040 Speaker 1: is not like you're taking an active roles, But do 800 00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:26,800 Speaker 1: you know that it's coming. I know that it's coming, 801 00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:31,080 Speaker 1: and I know that you know. I know that with 802 00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:33,400 Speaker 1: as close as I am to my dad, I know 803 00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:35,280 Speaker 1: that will never be in a situation where like someone 804 00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:38,319 Speaker 1: else is doing caretaking like it's me, right, Like, so 805 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:41,279 Speaker 1: are you saying that you want to take up the 806 00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:44,920 Speaker 1: mantle correct and you don't want to find yourself in 807 00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:49,759 Speaker 1: a position of delegating their responsibility or paying for for 808 00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:53,840 Speaker 1: professional caretakers. And I have to ask you, do you 809 00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:57,400 Speaker 1: think that's has anything to do with an identity as 810 00:41:57,440 --> 00:41:59,399 Speaker 1: being a woman, Like are you more likely to take 811 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:01,640 Speaker 1: on that man tool and like kind of want to 812 00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:04,360 Speaker 1: martyr yourself for this or is it is it a 813 00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:07,480 Speaker 1: conscious choice? Like without what? I think it's both. I 814 00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:09,080 Speaker 1: think one is just that my dad and I have 815 00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:11,480 Speaker 1: a really close relationship, and so you know, and I 816 00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:13,600 Speaker 1: also I know my dad right, Like, my dad would 817 00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:16,680 Speaker 1: never want to have a stranger in his home doing 818 00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:18,239 Speaker 1: things for him. My dad wants to do things on 819 00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:20,120 Speaker 1: his own, and if someone has to do things for him, 820 00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:21,719 Speaker 1: it's not going to be a stranger in our house 821 00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:24,319 Speaker 1: because my dad's does not like that. And so one 822 00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:27,640 Speaker 1: is just from having a close relationship with my parents. Two, 823 00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:30,480 Speaker 1: I do think it's gendered. I mean, all the research 824 00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:33,360 Speaker 1: suggests that women do end up doing most of this 825 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:35,399 Speaker 1: kind of work. And I think that as the only 826 00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:37,680 Speaker 1: daughter in my family, I think that there is an 827 00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:41,040 Speaker 1: expectation that as the as the girl that will fall 828 00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:44,160 Speaker 1: on me. I do wonder if it's also cultural because 829 00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:49,720 Speaker 1: the idea of delegating family obligation to outsiders seems very foreign, 830 00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:53,920 Speaker 1: particularly in my family. My family is in my black 831 00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:58,439 Speaker 1: family that we're talking about. This is stuff your black 832 00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:03,279 Speaker 1: mom never told you. Perfect, So I wonder, like I mean, 833 00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:07,160 Speaker 1: on all the research, there was very little, shockingly little 834 00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:10,360 Speaker 1: on elder care as it comes to race in the 835 00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:14,400 Speaker 1: United States, other than the racial makeup of professional caregivers, 836 00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:17,480 Speaker 1: which is very non white, And so I wonder if 837 00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:20,880 Speaker 1: how that impacts only decision making. I would love to 838 00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:24,520 Speaker 1: see search around that, just anecdotally, again, I have not 839 00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:28,640 Speaker 1: seen this research, but anecdotally, I would think that caregiving, 840 00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:33,600 Speaker 1: hiring outside caregiving is something that communities of color perhaps 841 00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:35,640 Speaker 1: are not doing at rates that are as high as 842 00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:38,919 Speaker 1: their white counterparts. That would be my assumption. And I think, 843 00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:42,040 Speaker 1: if I recall correctly, Latino families are much more likely 844 00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:45,840 Speaker 1: to have multiple generations living under the same room exactly, 845 00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:47,839 Speaker 1: which I think is becoming much more of a thing 846 00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:52,719 Speaker 1: um And it is probably where I see myself in 847 00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:55,840 Speaker 1: the future in terms of elder care. But I don't know. 848 00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:58,680 Speaker 1: I'm dying to hear from our listeners on this right 849 00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:03,200 Speaker 1: because it is such a private conversation that's fraught even 850 00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:07,319 Speaker 1: within every family. So it's like there's very few places 851 00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:10,919 Speaker 1: other than perhaps Liz's Facebook group, where people are having 852 00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:17,600 Speaker 1: these conversations amongst caregivers, amongst decision makers who are navigating 853 00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:20,600 Speaker 1: these choice moments within each of their own families. And 854 00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:22,720 Speaker 1: it feels to me like we need to be talking 855 00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:25,319 Speaker 1: a lot more about this to bring the conversation out 856 00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:28,360 Speaker 1: of the shadows, to get some public policy support on 857 00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:31,760 Speaker 1: an issue that barely has a name. So, working daughters, 858 00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:34,040 Speaker 1: we want to hear from you. Do you identify as 859 00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:36,640 Speaker 1: a working daughter? Do you feel the squeeze that Liz 860 00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:39,440 Speaker 1: was talking about, perhaps a lot more than Bridget and 861 00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:44,480 Speaker 1: I do right now, right as being unwed, unmarried, childless women, 862 00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:49,040 Speaker 1: which we'll talk more about in this series. But you know, 863 00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:52,360 Speaker 1: what does it feel like to play those different roles 864 00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:56,040 Speaker 1: of mother of daughter to an aging parent and of 865 00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:59,520 Speaker 1: course in your professional life, how does that show up? Yeah, 866 00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:02,600 Speaker 1: I'm really curious how other folks are navigating this. Are 867 00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:04,560 Speaker 1: you someone like me who is just now starting to 868 00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:06,120 Speaker 1: think about these things and how they'll show up in 869 00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:08,759 Speaker 1: your life? Is a partner or someone else that you 870 00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:10,759 Speaker 1: know going through this. I'm just really curious how this 871 00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:13,080 Speaker 1: issue is showing up in people's lives, so make sure 872 00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:15,719 Speaker 1: to hit us up on Instagram at stuff Mom Never 873 00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:19,160 Speaker 1: Told You, on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast, and as always, 874 00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:22,160 Speaker 1: we love getting your emails at mom stuff at how 875 00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:34,080 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com