1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:05,800 Speaker 1: Hi, it's West Kasova. We're taking a break today for 2 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: the Juneteenth holiday in the US. Here's a past show 3 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: you might have missed and an update after this episode. 4 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:17,599 Speaker 1: Based on a Bloomberg investigation aired last year, Wells Fargo 5 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: pledged another one hundred million dollars to help aspiring black 6 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:25,279 Speaker 1: home buyers. However, it also said it was dropping a 7 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 1: twenty seventeen goal to create two hundred and fifty thousand 8 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 1: new black homeowners in America over a decade, and would 9 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 1: instead take a different approach without a specific goal. Thanks 10 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: so much for listening. We'll be back tomorrow with another 11 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 1: Big Take. It's the Big Take from Bloomberg News and iHeartRadio. 12 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: I'm West Ksova today. What happened to that big promise 13 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: banks made to help Black Americans buy homes? One big 14 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: contributor to the persistent wealth gap between black and white Americans. 15 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 1: White families are far more likely than black families to 16 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: own the home they live in. That, of course, is 17 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 1: part of the long legacy of all kinds of racism 18 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: and discrimination in employment, the real estate market, and in 19 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 1: decisions by banks about who they'll lend money to. 20 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 2: For a mortgage. 21 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 1: You might remember a few years ago, some of the 22 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:43,039 Speaker 1: country's biggest banks, Wells Fargo, Bank of Americas and others, 23 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: pledged to do something about that. They said they'd work 24 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 1: hard to dramatically increase the number of mortgages they extend 25 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 1: to black home buyers. So how'd that work out? Bloomberg 26 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: Senior economics writer Sean Dunne set out to answer that question, 27 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: and he's here with me now now with answers. Sean, 28 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: good to talk to you again. 29 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 2: Wonderful to be here, Sean. 30 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 1: The last time we talked on this show, you were 31 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 1: explaining the importance of home ownership to getting into the 32 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 1: middle class and staying there. And now you're in Our 33 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 1: colleague and Choy have written a big investigation that shows 34 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 1: how difficult that can be and how sometimes that cards 35 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 1: are stacked against people, especially Black Americans. Can you describe 36 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:31,919 Speaker 1: what she set out to find? 37 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 2: What we set out to look at was some big 38 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 2: promises that the three biggest banks in the mortgage market 39 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 2: in America had made to increase black home ownership. And 40 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 2: the biggest of those promises was one made by Wells 41 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 2: Fargo in twenty seventeen, when it promised to lend sixty 42 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 2: billion dollars over the next decade to create two hundred 43 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 2: and fifty thousand new black homeowners in America. What we 44 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:01,520 Speaker 2: found when we looked at the data was that in 45 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 2: every year since Wells Fargo had actually originated fewer mortgages 46 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:09,920 Speaker 2: to black home buyers than it did the year before, 47 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 2: and that in twenty twenty one it actually underwrote forty 48 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 2: percent fewer mortgages to black home buyers than it did 49 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 2: in twenty seventeen, the year that it made that promise. Now, 50 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 2: Wells Fargo isn't alone in making these big promises. JP 51 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 2: Morgan promised in twenty twenty to create forty thousand new 52 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 2: Black and Latina homeowners in America. Bank of America has 53 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 2: made some similar big promises in terms of two separate 54 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 2: fifteen billion dollar programs to help increase minority home ownership. 55 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 2: They announced in August of this year that they were 56 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 2: going to provide zero down mortgages in black minority communities 57 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 2: in five cities in America as part of a test program, 58 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 2: again to try and increase black home ownership. But those 59 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 2: banks are all lending far less to black home buyers 60 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 2: than they did a decade ago or then they did 61 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 2: more importantly at the peak in two thousand and seven 62 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 2: on the cusp of the subprime crisis. Today in America, 63 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 2: those three banks originate fifty thousand or almost fifty thousand 64 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 2: fewer mortgages each year to black home buyers than they 65 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:22,719 Speaker 2: did fifteen years ago. And we looked at something called 66 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:28,160 Speaker 2: the Home Mortgage Disclosure Act data, which is every mortgage 67 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 2: in America gets recorded and reported by the government anonymously. 68 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:36,840 Speaker 2: And what we zeroed in on is the role of 69 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:40,720 Speaker 2: the big three banks, the biggest bank lenders in the 70 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 2: mortgage market, and that's Wells Fargo, JP, Morgan, and Bank 71 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:47,039 Speaker 2: of America, and how that had changed in the last 72 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 2: fifteen years. 73 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 1: So despite the pledge to increase the number of black 74 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:56,359 Speaker 1: homeowners by issuing more mortgages to black family seeking to 75 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: buy homes than numbers have actually gone down. 76 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, and to the point where in twenty twenty one, 77 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 3: Wells Fargo originated just thirty seven hundred mortgages across the 78 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:13,599 Speaker 3: country to black home buyers. 79 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:16,840 Speaker 1: And had they stuck with the goal, then it would 80 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:18,039 Speaker 1: have been twenty five thousand. 81 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 2: It would have been twenty five thousand. Yeah, and some 82 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 2: of those would be mortges that they bought from other 83 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 2: lenders and so on. There's other ways of doing it. 84 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 2: But the point is the lending that their loan officers 85 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 2: has been doing to black home buyers is actually down 86 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 2: forty percent from the time they made this big pledge. 87 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 2: And it's a pledge that wasn't a kind of one 88 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 2: time thing. It's something that they have repeated in their 89 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 2: social progress reports as recently a September of this year, 90 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:48,159 Speaker 2: and it was a big sixty billion dollar commitment that 91 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 2: they were making and that they've continued to repeat. And 92 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 2: what they don't tell you is that actually their business 93 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 2: reality is that lending to black home buyers has gone 94 00:05:57,120 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 2: in the opposite direction. 95 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: So they're continuing to hey that this is something that 96 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: they're doing, except the number is sort of show otherwise. 97 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 1: So I guess the question is why why have the 98 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:11,239 Speaker 1: numbers gone down despite very prominent pledges to increase the numbers. 99 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:15,480 Speaker 2: Well, look, it's something that Wells Fargo, when we asked 100 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 2: them this question, simply gave us a statement saying that 101 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 2: they remained committed to increasing black home ownership in America 102 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 2: and pointing to wider economic and social problems in America 103 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 2: and laying the blame elsewhere, and JP Morgan and Bank 104 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 2: of America both say they remained committed to their own goals, 105 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:40,279 Speaker 2: but that it just may take more time to meet them. 106 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 1: Sean, your story focuses on one city block in Baltimore, 107 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:49,479 Speaker 1: which is emblematic of the things you're describing here. 108 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 2: Absolutely, So we set out to look at where in 109 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 2: America we could tell the story, and we settled on 110 00:06:56,080 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 2: the twenty nine hundred block of Waalbroock Avenue in Westballaltimore. 111 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:03,039 Speaker 2: The twenty nine hundred block of Walbrock Avenue is really 112 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:05,679 Speaker 2: interesting in that it's a place that has a history 113 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 2: of black home ownership. It's a block of rowhouses. It's 114 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 2: part of a black working class neighborhood that has actually 115 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 2: seen some serious disinvestment over the last fifteen or twenty years. 116 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 2: Sprinkled among these homes that are still kept up well, 117 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 2: that have tidy front lawns, that have longtime black homeowners 118 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 2: living in them, are vacant lots. And one of the 119 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 2: reasons for that is that, like a lot of neighborhoods 120 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 2: in Baltimore, predominantly black neighborhoods in Baltimore, the twenty nine 121 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 2: hundred block of Walburg Avenue just saw an exit of 122 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 2: bank lending. Effectively, it became almost impossible in recent years 123 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 2: to get a mortgage from a major bank to buy 124 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 2: a property in a lot of neighborhoods in Baltimore. And 125 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 2: you know, one of the people we talked to describes 126 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 2: that as the cutting off of the capital artery to 127 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 2: a lot of these communities. And that's something that has 128 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 2: really been a legacy of the subprime crisis fifteen years ago. 129 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 2: But it's there today, and it's there in the market, 130 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 2: and it's been one of the things that is really 131 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 2: dragged down, you know, back to that middle class dream 132 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:25,239 Speaker 2: of the wealth of the families that live on these blocks, 133 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 2: the longtime homeowners there, Their homes are not worth what 134 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 2: they were fifteen years ago in some cases, and that's 135 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 2: largely as a result of the withdrawal of bank capital 136 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:37,440 Speaker 2: from a lot of these neighborhoods. 137 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 1: You talk about this bank withdrawal, and on this block 138 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: in Baltimore, you see numerous examples of houses where the 139 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 1: bank's essentially left. 140 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, So we went through the property records for each 141 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 2: of the properties on the block. On the south side 142 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 2: of the block, there are twenty three properties, but there's 143 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 2: only one Wells Fargo mortgage left on the south side 144 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 2: of the block. Happened. Some of this is the result 145 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 2: of people paying off their mortgages, people moving, people saying, 146 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 2: but a lot of it is the result of foreclosures. 147 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 2: And we started zeroing in on the story of one 148 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 2: particular house, the house at twenty nine oh three Wahlberg Avenue, 149 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 2: and that's where we met the Jones family. The story 150 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 2: that we're told by Terrence Jones Junior, who was in 151 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 2: high school at the time, is that he came home 152 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 2: from high school one afternoon, found his mother waiting outside, 153 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 2: and his mother had been battling illness for the few 154 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 2: years beforehand, and his father had, as a result, been 155 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 2: forced to cut back on his hours. They'd fallen behind 156 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 2: on the mortgage. You know, it was a story that 157 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 2: I think a lot of us can sympathize with. But 158 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 2: as a result of falling behind, Wells Fargo foreclosed on 159 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 2: the property and they lost their home. And the legacy 160 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:57,959 Speaker 2: is not just in this family being dislocated and losing 161 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 2: their home, it's also in and how Terrence Jones Junior, 162 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 2: now an adult who is now in his twenties thinks 163 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:08,439 Speaker 2: about home ownership, and I think that's something that's really 164 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 2: interesting when you think about the future and closing that 165 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 2: wealth cap and getting younger people on the housing ladder. 166 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:18,080 Speaker 1: And you spoke to him, Let's listen to what he 167 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: had to say. 168 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:21,959 Speaker 4: You know, if a bank can be that heartless to 169 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 4: families or heartless to a person, then you know, it 170 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 4: just makes me don't even want to buy, don't even 171 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 4: want to buy a house, or don't even want to 172 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 4: you know long from the bank. I'd rather just buy 173 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:35,559 Speaker 4: my house out on his own, because I don't kind 174 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 4: of want to go through the same thing that my 175 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 4: father went through and that my family went through, losing 176 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 4: the house. 177 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 1: It was just like kind of like a traumatic experience. 178 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: When we come back my conversation with Sean down In 179 00:10:49,360 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 1: continues Seawan, we heard Termce Jones talking about his experience 180 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 1: when his family's home was were closed on, and it 181 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 1: wasn't an unusual thing to. 182 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:09,320 Speaker 2: Happen now, So the story of the Jones family house 183 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:13,200 Speaker 2: doesn't end with the family being kicked out. After the 184 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 2: family was foreclosed on. The father had taken out a 185 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 2: sixty five thousand dollars mortgage in two thousand and three 186 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:20,679 Speaker 2: and that was what he fell behind on. And ten 187 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 2: years later they were kicked out of the house. A 188 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 2: couple of years after they were kicked out of the house, 189 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 2: Wells Fargo sold the house for five hundred dollars to 190 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 2: an investor in Pennsylvania who turned around and sold it 191 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 2: a few months later from nine thousand dollars to another 192 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 2: investor who then rehabbed the house and sold it last year, 193 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 2: late last year for almost ninety thousand dollars. And you 194 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 2: think about that, You talked to Terrence Jones Junior, and 195 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 2: what you see there is just the erosion of one 196 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 2: family's wealth, the missed opportunities. That house is going to 197 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 2: continue to appreciate as an asset in the years to come. 198 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:06,439 Speaker 2: And that is an appreciation and that's wealth that the 199 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 2: Jones family is going to miss out. 200 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 1: On Sean, you've said that the banks are saying market 201 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 1: conditions and other forces beyond their control are largely responsible 202 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 1: for their inability to meet the promise of lending to 203 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 1: more black Americans. What did you find. 204 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:28,080 Speaker 2: When you talk about this with the banks, And the 205 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 2: banks are incredibly sensitive about this issue. One of the 206 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:37,680 Speaker 2: things you run into very quickly is bankers blaming regulations 207 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 2: and the regulatory environment and the crackdown that followed the 208 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 2: subprime crisis Great Recession. And we know that a large 209 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 2: part of the story of the collapse of the housing 210 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 2: market at that time was the kind of reckless lending 211 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 2: practices that happened beforehand by a lot of these same banks, 212 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 2: and that they faced consequences afterward. Words for targeting minority neighborhoods. 213 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 2: For you know, Baltimore was actually at the center of 214 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:10,119 Speaker 2: a series of lawsuits over reverse redlining, the actual targeting 215 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:16,199 Speaker 2: by Wells Fargo and other banks of black communities for 216 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 2: high interest subprime loan and there was a huge settlement 217 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:22,960 Speaker 2: that was negotiated by the Department of Justice with Wells 218 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:25,480 Speaker 2: Fargo and twenty twelve, and there were other banks that 219 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 2: faced fines as a result. So the cost of getting 220 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:30,599 Speaker 2: it wrong, the kind of regulatory cost, is one of 221 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 2: the things that banks point to. 222 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 1: And yet they made the pledge to increase lending once 223 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:42,439 Speaker 1: these regulations were in place, so it wasn't as though 224 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 1: they changed the rules of the game afterwards. They went 225 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:48,199 Speaker 1: into it knowing that that's what the terms. 226 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 2: Were, absolutely absolutely and you know, as part of this reporting. 227 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 2: We talked to a guy called Brad Blackwell, who was 228 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 2: a senior executive at Wells Fargo at the time they 229 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 2: came up with this twenty seventeen goal, and he said, 230 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 2: we saw a great opportunity in the black community in America, 231 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:07,560 Speaker 2: great business opportunity in terms of population growth. It was 232 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 2: also the reality is mortgages in the white community, the 233 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:13,839 Speaker 2: home ownership rates something like seventy five percent is pretty saturated, 234 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 2: but there's a growth opportunity in Latino and Black neighborhoods 235 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 2: to get back into lending there. There's also a social 236 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 2: responsibility that he talked about, and that has become This 237 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 2: pledge from all of the banks has really become part 238 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 2: of their social policy. The kind of ESG thing that 239 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 2: we hear about. 240 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 1: That's that environmental, social and governance as sort of being 241 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 1: a better company by doing good. 242 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's corporate citizenship. 243 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 1: So do you think that when they made these pledges 244 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 1: at the time they saw an opportunity to make it happen, 245 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: that they did it in good faith and then realized 246 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 1: they'd made the wrong decision, or was this more of 247 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 1: a social campaign from the start. 248 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 2: Look, it's really hard to make that judgment, and I 249 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 2: have to believe as a reporter that these were good 250 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 2: faith pledges at the time. Banks certainly laid out strategies 251 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 2: to get there. But you know, there's a structural problem 252 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 2: in the way the business is done. 253 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: What can be done? Because you said two things. One, 254 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 1: the banks are not meeting their pledge to increase the 255 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: number of mortgages going to black home owners. And the 256 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 1: second thing is that the banks themselves are not wanting 257 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 1: to issue as many mortgages anyway because it's not such 258 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: a good business as it used to be. Those two 259 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 1: things together don't look like a great future for mortgages 260 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 1: for people who are looking to get in the middle class. 261 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, and for the broader issue of closing their racial 262 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 2: wealthcap in America. 263 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: So what's taking its space? Because people still want to 264 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 1: buy homes. People are still buying homes, even now where 265 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 1: interest rates are high. It's more difficult, but people want 266 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 1: to buy home. So who's lending. 267 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 2: So the biggest mortgage lenders in America today are non 268 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 2: bank lenders. And these are outfits like Rocket Mortgage, which. 269 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: Used to be Quickened and they're now the largest. 270 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 2: They are now the largest mortgage lender in America, And 271 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 2: just to give you an idea, they lent they originated 272 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 2: more mortgages to black home buyers in twenty twenty one 273 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 2: than all three of the biggest banks combined. And so 274 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 2: they know how to do this. 275 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: Now why though, that makes just ask you, like banks 276 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: have been doing this for many, many years. Is obviously 277 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 1: very profitable. Why is it that these other lenders are 278 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 1: able to make a go of it in a way 279 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 1: that would you know, seemingly be so profitable when the 280 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 1: big banks can't. 281 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 2: Do it well? I mean, part of it is convenience. 282 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 2: You know, you can apply for a Rocket mortgage on 283 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 2: your phone. There's that online lending side of things. But 284 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 2: part of it is also intentional marketing to some of 285 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 2: these communities that the Rocket Mortgages and others are doing 286 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 2: that perhaps the banks aren't. 287 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 1: So sean as usual. You've done a great job as 288 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 1: spelling out a big problem. Where's the right spot here? 289 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: If there is one, where is the solution? How does 290 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 1: this get fixed? 291 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:04,120 Speaker 2: So there are some pretty obvious and fairly easy solutions 292 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:06,399 Speaker 2: to this, and one of the biggest ones that the 293 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 2: people in the housing industry talk about is depositi assistance 294 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:14,680 Speaker 2: helping Black home buyers come up with the deposit, which 295 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 2: is often the hardest thing for. 296 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 1: A family, the down payment on the home. 297 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:21,119 Speaker 2: Exactly, the down payment on a mortgage, which can be 298 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 2: anywhere from you know, three to twenty percent of the 299 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 2: cost of a house, because a lot of these families 300 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:29,160 Speaker 2: are paying rent right and they can afford the monthly payment. 301 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, because rent is often more expensive than a mortgage, 302 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 1: and yet you don't build anything exactly. 303 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 2: It's just that entry point that they struggle with. And 304 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 2: so there have been some efforts by the banks to 305 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 2: get into this area, but they've been hidden miss But 306 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,440 Speaker 2: one of the big ones that Wells Fargo engaged in 307 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 2: was created by a twenty twelve settlement with a Department 308 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:53,119 Speaker 2: of Justice in which they were asked to come up 309 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 2: with fifty million dollars to do deposit assistance programs in 310 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 2: eight cities, including Baltimore. One of the people we met, 311 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:03,159 Speaker 2: Nyamaka Odom, who is twenty nine years old, and she 312 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 2: bought a house in twenty twenty in East Baltimore, and 313 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:11,919 Speaker 2: she was able to string together twenty nine thousand dollars 314 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:14,439 Speaker 2: in down payment assistance. The biggest chunk of that was 315 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 2: fifteen thousand dollars and a forgivable loan from. 316 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:19,680 Speaker 1: Wells Fargo as part of this program. 317 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 2: As part of this program, and it made all the difference, 318 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:23,800 Speaker 2: and she walked us through the process. 319 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 5: I met with my realtor. He was like, you know, 320 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:31,399 Speaker 5: there are down payment assistance programs, you know, let me 321 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 5: introduce you to a broker at bb and T at 322 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:36,879 Speaker 5: the time, now Turists And she told me, yes, you 323 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 5: can get a lot of aid based on the income 324 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:41,359 Speaker 5: amount that you make because there's certain income caps for 325 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 5: certain programs. And so she told me about the Community 326 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 5: Block Development program at Baltimore that she told me about 327 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:51,440 Speaker 5: the Baltimore Neighborhood left and then the other was through 328 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 5: Federal Home Loan Bank. And so I ended up getting 329 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 5: all of them, which was nice because the Baltimore Neighborhood 330 00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:58,119 Speaker 5: left one that was the last one I got, but 331 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,639 Speaker 5: it gave me fifteen thousand dollars. The other programs, the 332 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:04,879 Speaker 5: Baltimore Community Block Program, that one I did have to 333 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:08,119 Speaker 5: do counseling for. So I did online counseling talking about 334 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 5: the responsibilities of being a homeowner, what can happen foreclosure 335 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:15,000 Speaker 5: and you know what to expect, and so I did 336 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 5: that counseling virtually, and then I did in person counseling 337 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 5: once I got certified for that, then they provided me 338 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:24,359 Speaker 5: the five thousand dollars of the down payment assistance. 339 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,919 Speaker 1: So there's what looks like a success story maybe a 340 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 1: path for others. How many other people have access to that? 341 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 1: Is that something that's scalable where let's say Wells Fargo 342 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 1: really embraced this, would they be able to come closer 343 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 1: to meeting this big public goal that they proposed. 344 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 2: Absolutely, but it's something that comes and goes. So in Baltimore, 345 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:50,440 Speaker 2: over the last ten years, we were able to track 346 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 2: down six hundred and eighty or so homeowners who received 347 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 2: the assistance from Wells Farrio, and we went through and 348 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 2: looked at where that money went, and what we found 349 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 2: was that only sixty percent of it roughly went into 350 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 2: majority black census tracks in Baltimore, and Baltimore is a 351 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:15,160 Speaker 2: majority black city. So it's the money. And you hear 352 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 2: this a lot from folks who work in the fair 353 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,399 Speaker 2: housing world and advocacy groups, and that is that you 354 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 2: really need to target that lending. 355 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:27,639 Speaker 1: Sean, when you look down the road, do you see 356 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:28,880 Speaker 1: this gap closing? 357 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 2: I think they're really sad and frustrating. Reality is that 358 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 2: we're going to go backwards for a few years. And 359 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 2: that's the consequence of economic policy in the United States. 360 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 2: It's a consequence of the Federal Reserve raising interest rates. 361 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 2: Buying houses is more expensive. You know, a lot of 362 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 2: people who could afford a mortgage a few years ago 363 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 2: aren't going to be able to afford that. We are 364 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:57,919 Speaker 2: going to go through some turmoil. Just the number of 365 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 2: people buying homes in the next few years is just 366 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 2: going to be down substantially, and at the end of 367 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:07,160 Speaker 2: the day, closing that gap. It's a numbers game, it's 368 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 2: a volume game. You need to lend more to black 369 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:15,119 Speaker 2: home buyers so that more black home buyers can buy 370 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,919 Speaker 2: homes and that they are buying homes at a faster 371 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 2: rate than the white population. And that gets into all 372 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:27,919 Speaker 2: sorts of other things, like how credit scores are assembled, 373 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:33,440 Speaker 2: like discrimination in terms of appraisals and black community is 374 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:37,239 Speaker 2: the willingness of banks to lend into some communities in 375 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:39,719 Speaker 2: places like the twenty nine hundred block of Walbrough Cavenue. 376 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 2: This is not something that is going to be solved tomorrow. 377 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:47,880 Speaker 2: I'm not sure it's something that's going to be solved 378 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:51,919 Speaker 2: ten years from now, but it's something that you need 379 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 2: the big banks in America to live up to their 380 00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:58,120 Speaker 2: promises to. 381 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 1: Do Shine and thanks so much for coming on the show. 382 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. 383 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,200 Speaker 1: When we come back, we'll hear from someone who's working 384 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 1: with banks and other lenders to try to do something 385 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 1: about this problem. What more can be done to press 386 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 1: lenders to narrow the home ownership gap? Didrich Issantei Mohammad 387 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:29,200 Speaker 1: spends a lot of time working to make that happen. 388 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 1: He's Chief of Membership Policy and Equity at the National 389 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:37,880 Speaker 1: Community Reinvestment Coalition here in Washington, and he joins me. Now, 390 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:41,160 Speaker 1: Didrichsantei Mohammad, thanks so much for being here. 391 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 2: Yes, thank you for having me. 392 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:46,199 Speaker 1: First, let me ask you, what does the National Community 393 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:49,120 Speaker 1: Reinvestment Coalition do well. 394 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 6: We are an organization that really started off as a 395 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 6: coalition around the Community Reinvestment Act and trying to make 396 00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 6: sure that the Community Reinvestment Act, you know, recognize is 397 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 6: that we don't need solely not discrimination, but we also 398 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:09,920 Speaker 6: needed to affirmatively further investment in housing by financial institutions 399 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 6: and investment in general in order to help move the 400 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 6: country toward a more equitable society. And so we pull 401 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:20,120 Speaker 6: together this coalition that today has grown. We have over 402 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:24,199 Speaker 6: seven hundred local organizations across the country that do different 403 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 6: type of community economic development work. We work with banks 404 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 6: and trying to help them point to them promising practices, 405 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 6: best practices of investment into load to moditor income areas, 406 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:38,159 Speaker 6: and how to help address the racial wealth divide. And 407 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,639 Speaker 6: that can take kind of a host of different programs 408 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 6: and types of advocacy. 409 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 1: And that's exactly what we're talking about today, which is 410 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 1: promises that a lot of the biggest banks lenders for 411 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:54,119 Speaker 1: mortgages made to increase the number of black homeowners by 412 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 1: extending more loans than they have historically, and how some 413 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:03,520 Speaker 1: of those promises been broken. You authored a study that 414 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: showed to boost black home ownership to sixty percent over 415 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:12,399 Speaker 1: twenty years in the US would require one hundred and 416 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 1: sixty five thousand mortgages a year above what was being 417 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: lent out in twenty nineteen. 418 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:24,879 Speaker 6: Yes, that is correct, and we like to you know, 419 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 6: note that's about a fifty percent increase. You know that 420 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 6: we would look at for most financial institutions, would need 421 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 6: to do that in order to collectively get to this level. 422 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:35,680 Speaker 6: And you know, I think, well, the reason we wanted 423 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:37,920 Speaker 6: to put these types of numbers out there is want 424 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 6: to highlight the kind of radical change necessary in order 425 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:43,639 Speaker 6: to get to what really is a humble goal, because 426 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 6: the home ownership rate for white Americans is seventy three 427 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:49,359 Speaker 6: seventy four percent, So we're not even talking about getting 428 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 6: to equality with white Americans. We're just kind of trying 429 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:55,679 Speaker 6: to help highlight that for the last sixty or more years, 430 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 6: African Americans have seen very little changes in home ownership rates, 431 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 6: staying right around forty three forty four percent, and that 432 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 6: we need to finally get the country going in the 433 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,920 Speaker 6: right direction, and it would take a real substantive, long 434 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 6: term increase in order to get to this, you know, 435 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 6: clear strong majority of black home ownership level. We think 436 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,440 Speaker 6: it's necessary to address the racial wealth divide and racial 437 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 6: economic inequality, and what are. 438 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: The steps that need to be taken in order to 439 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 1: meet that goal. 440 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,879 Speaker 6: You know, I don't think most banks, if any banks, 441 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:32,480 Speaker 6: are going to increase their mortgage lending to African Americans 442 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 6: by fifty percent next year. But I think what banks 443 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,159 Speaker 6: can do is recognize that we have to commit ourselves 444 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 6: to increasing mortgage lending to African Americans by let's say, 445 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:45,640 Speaker 6: five percent next year, and then try to do that 446 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 6: five percent the year after that, and so we can 447 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 6: start getting on the path of substantive change over time. 448 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 6: I look not even at so much the whole kind 449 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 6: of total numbers, because understand, the market goes up and down. 450 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 6: How many loans are banks doing each year varies. Right 451 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 6: now we have a higher interest rate, that might be 452 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 6: less overall lending, but the percentage of black loans, you know, 453 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 6: you can focus on increasing that, whether in a very 454 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,719 Speaker 6: strong market or a weaker market, and so, you know, 455 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:17,679 Speaker 6: I look for that type of a step by step progress. 456 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,120 Speaker 1: We saw the big lenders make these very big public 457 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 1: pledges a few years ago to do exactly what you're 458 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 1: talking about. What did you think when those pledges came 459 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: out and how is it actually played out among the 460 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 1: coalition that you're part of. 461 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 6: Well, you know, for years I had been advocating and 462 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 6: working with various organizations for financial institutions to recognize the 463 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 6: reality of the racial wealth divide. Right NCRC has been 464 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 6: working for years, and many oorganiations been working for years 465 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 6: on increasing minority home ownership. So I was glad to 466 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:54,679 Speaker 6: see that financial institutions across the country were coming forward 467 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 6: and say that we are making pledges to address the 468 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 6: racial wealth divide, the racial wealth gap. That is good 469 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 6: that they're on that page. They're recognizing that. I have 470 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 6: some concerns that some of these pledges are overly broad, 471 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,239 Speaker 6: where you could say, you know, we're doing billions of 472 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:12,680 Speaker 6: dollars in order to bridge racial wealth to vibe, but 473 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 6: not really clarifying well, how much of that let's say 474 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 6: three billion dollars, how much of that lending were you 475 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 6: already doing the previous years, Like how much of that 476 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,680 Speaker 6: is new lending additional lending? And also too, to be clear, 477 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:29,800 Speaker 6: this is lending. This isn't investment in giving of new 478 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,159 Speaker 6: dollars in right, it's them actually selling their products. They're saying, 479 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 6: if they did two billion last year, they're going to 480 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 6: do three billion next year. They're saying, well, and we 481 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:41,200 Speaker 6: hope to sell an additional billion dollars of products. Oftentimes 482 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:43,400 Speaker 6: it gets tied into this philanthropic giving. So I think 483 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 6: it's really it's important we're going to make progress to 484 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 6: be real specific about what is being offered, what is 485 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:51,399 Speaker 6: being promised and what they hope to achieve in the 486 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 6: next five to ten years. 487 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 1: I mean, that's a really important point you're making, is 488 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 1: that you're not asking banks to give, you're asking banks 489 00:27:58,640 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: just to sell their product. 490 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,679 Speaker 6: Yes, well, I mean I'm also asking banks. 491 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,200 Speaker 2: To give fair Enough. 492 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 1: We've been talking about banks, there are also non bank 493 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:10,639 Speaker 1: lenders that have started to move in for loans that 494 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 1: banks sometimes won't. How has that worked out? 495 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 6: That's a growing important component that non banking companies are 496 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 6: a larger and larger segment of those doing important mortgage 497 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,399 Speaker 6: lending and other types of lending. And you know, we 498 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:29,359 Speaker 6: are having more and more conversations with these other industries 499 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:33,200 Speaker 6: about you know, what is your commitment to ensuring that 500 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,479 Speaker 6: the mortgage lending space, a small business lending space, is 501 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 6: something that serves all people, right, It's not something that 502 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 6: we just think banks should do. 503 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 1: Earlier in this episode, we heard from a young man 504 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 1: named Terence Jones Junior in Baltimore whose family lost their 505 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 1: home because his dad had to cut back on work 506 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:55,920 Speaker 1: to become his wife's caretaker, and he now lacks the 507 00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 1: desire to buy a home of his own, fearing that 508 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 1: he could lose everything. What do you say to a 509 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 1: young man like that who lost faith in the ability 510 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: to buy a home. 511 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 6: I think what I would say to someone like that. 512 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:14,480 Speaker 6: I mean, one is, first, it's important to recognize, you know, 513 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 6: the challenge and the trauma of because it's a financial asset, 514 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,160 Speaker 6: but it's also something very personal, right, and it's something 515 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 6: that you really do feel a loss, like if you 516 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 6: lose a home and then you're going into rentorship, so 517 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 6: you know, I think first important to recognize that loss, 518 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 6: but also the economic benefits and even the kind of 519 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 6: personal benefits of being able to own a home and 520 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 6: be able to stay and not have to worry about 521 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,640 Speaker 6: rent changing every year or that they might not continue 522 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 6: your lease. But you have something that you can stay 523 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 6: in and you know, and your kids can come back to. 524 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 6: It's still something that probably would be beneficial for you. 525 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,480 Speaker 6: And trying to figure out what is the best type 526 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 6: of a mortgage program, what is the best economic situation 527 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 6: you can set yourself up in so that this can 528 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 6: be as safe and secure for you as possible. I 529 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 6: don't think in overall the challenge is African Americans don't 530 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 6: have a desire for home ownership. 531 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:13,960 Speaker 2: You know. 532 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 6: I think we see repeatedly that when there are opportunities, 533 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 6: African Americans are quick to jump in to the home 534 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 6: ownership market. It's more about creating sustainable mortgage lending programs 535 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 6: that can work considering the economic reality of African Americans. 536 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 1: Diedrich Casantae Mohammad, thanks for speaking with me today. 537 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 6: It's great talking with you. Thank you. 538 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 1: You can see Didrisante Mohammad's report on black home ownership 539 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 1: at NCRC dot org. And you can read Sean Dunnan 540 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 1: and and Choice's story about banks and Black homeowners at 541 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,840 Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot com. Thanks for listening to us here at 542 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 1: The Big Tech to daily podcast from Bloomberg and iHeartRadio. 543 00:30:55,480 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 1: For more shows from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 544 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen. Read today's story and subscribe to 545 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 1: our daily newsletter at Bloomberg dot com slash Big Take, 546 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 1: and we'd love to hear from you. Email us with 547 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 1: questions or comments to Big Take at Bloomberg dot net. 548 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 1: The supervising producer of The Big Take is Vicky Bergalina. 549 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Catherine Fink. Our producers are Mo 550 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 1: Berrow and Michael Fallero. Hilde Garcia is our engineer. Original 551 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 1: music by Leo Sidrin. I'm West Kasova. We'll be back 552 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 1: tomorrow with another big take.