1 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:06,160 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff. Mom never told you from how stuff 2 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: works not come Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:18,240 Speaker 1: Caroline and I'm Kristen. And the topic of whether someone 4 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:21,440 Speaker 1: is crazy or calling someone crazy can be kind of 5 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 1: nebulous because, I mean, it's not like there's a lot 6 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: of research about how it makes women or men feel 7 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: when you call them crazy. It kind of makes them 8 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: feel crazy, it kind of I can tell you from 9 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:37,479 Speaker 1: my own personal research that it makes you feel crazy. 10 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:41,639 Speaker 1: And as Kristen and I were talking about this topic, 11 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:44,519 Speaker 1: it's sort of it's another one of those where you 12 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,160 Speaker 1: can end up going on forever once you get down 13 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:51,200 Speaker 1: into the nitty gritty of it. Because you might think 14 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: that it's no big deal to just dismiss someone whose 15 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 1: behavior or attitude you don't like by saying, like, ah, 16 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: she's crazier, he's crazy, But it has a lot of 17 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: kind of social implications. Yeah, and we're going to focus 18 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:12,200 Speaker 1: this in on crazy women in particular, or calling women crazy, 19 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 1: because it's not just a thing that is isolated. There's 20 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 1: not one specific type of woman who fits all of 21 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: the check boxes of well that's crazy. I mean, you 22 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:27,399 Speaker 1: have girls starting out, we're boy crazy, when we're girls. 23 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 1: And then women who don't want unattached sex a lot 24 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:34,199 Speaker 1: of times are often called crazy. Women who aren't having 25 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 1: enough sex are crazy cat ladies, and then women who 26 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 1: express anger are crazy. Word that rhymes with witches that 27 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:46,559 Speaker 1: we can't say on the podcast. So first up, what 28 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: does crazy mean by dictionary terms? Okay, well, first of all, 29 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: it means actually mentally deranged, especially as manifested in a 30 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 1: wild or aggressive way. A I picture lots of flailing. 31 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 1: The second definition is being very passionate about or very 32 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 1: keen on something in particular. Yeah, I'm crazy about podcasting 33 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 1: right obviously, and and sometimes that does involve flailing. Yes, yes, um, 34 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 1: But the one I mean, that last one that you 35 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:25,679 Speaker 1: gave about women who express anger, um being crazy bleeps that. 36 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 1: I feel like that's the one that really really gets 37 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 1: me and really kind of ticks me off, because I 38 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:33,640 Speaker 1: do feel like it goes back to, well, that woman 39 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: isn't playing her gender role very well and so obviously 40 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: she's crazy. Yeah, the women in anger is really strong. 41 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 1: And then also the women plus sexuality equals crazy is 42 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 1: very tied up together, going back for millennia. For a 43 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 1: long time, women have been pathologized as crazy. For instance, 44 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 1: if we go back to the fourth century b C. 45 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 1: There was the belief that we've talked about previously in 46 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 1: other podcasts that women could be afflicted by hysteria, and 47 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 1: hysteria today is Greek for uterus, and it results in 48 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: symptoms including fainting, insomnia, vaginal lubrication, and general troublemaking. Essentially, 49 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:24,359 Speaker 1: if you are not acting correctly, or if you are 50 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 1: highly aroused and don't really know what to do about that, 51 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 1: or if you just don't want to, you know, follow 52 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: the rules, then honey, you are hysterical. Something is probably 53 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: wrong with that womb, probably needs to be filled with 54 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 1: a baby. Yeah yeah, And I mean it's probably floating 55 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: around like pong. And I had no idea, but now, 56 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: thanks to Hippocrates, I know now that I have a 57 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 1: squirrel inside me called a uterus uh, and it wants babies. Basically, 58 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 1: Hippocrates was saying that women have this thing, this organ 59 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 1: inside of them that resemble as an animal and is 60 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: altogether erratic, and then it delights in fragrance, smells and 61 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 1: moves towards them. What is this and so basically like 62 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 1: you better feed that wound some semen lady like right away, 63 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:17,839 Speaker 1: I assumed he was talking about the fragrant smell of chocolate. 64 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 1: You know, of flowers, give your vagina flowers and no, 65 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:26,039 Speaker 1: but Hippocrates wrote on the whole, the womb is like 66 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 1: an animal within an animal. Thank you, thanks for dehumanizing 67 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 1: women as a whole. But even if we look at 68 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 1: the word luney, that derives from lunacy, which means a 69 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 1: monthly periodic insanity believed to be triggered by the moon, 70 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 1: which sounds an awful lot like how menstruation is described. 71 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:51,119 Speaker 1: That's awfully female centric. Yeah. Writing over the Guardian, Gary 72 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 1: Nunn talks about how these etymologies of lunacy, crazy, et 73 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 1: cetera have cemented a polarization of the female and male 74 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: mental states, men being historically associated with rationality, straightforwardness and logic, 75 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: women with unpredictable emotions, outbursts and madness. Right, and so 76 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:16,920 Speaker 1: if we look back at Victorians in particular, there's crazy Victorians. 77 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 1: I just love talking about them. Hey, there's crazy. Yeah, 78 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: I know, I just dismissed an entire arrow's worth of people. 79 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:27,599 Speaker 1: But they were a little nutty, let's be honest, because 80 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 1: they're the Victorian male attitudes toward women played a huge 81 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 1: part in defining female insanity. Men got to say, we 82 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 1: think you crazy, so you've got to go to the 83 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:44,280 Speaker 1: insane asylum. And so in eighteen fifty one Charles Dickens 84 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:47,279 Speaker 1: Rights of his visit to St. Luke's St Luke's Hospital 85 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 1: for the Insane. The experience of this asylum did not differ, 86 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 1: I found from that of similar establishments, improving that insanity 87 00:05:55,839 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: is more prevalent among women than among men, which just 88 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 1: reflects the perception of a man as completely reasonable and 89 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:08,600 Speaker 1: women being these mad beasts who need to be chained up. 90 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:11,040 Speaker 1: And I'm sure it wasn't just a situation of men 91 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: saying women off to the asylum with you so we 92 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:17,799 Speaker 1: can all smoke our cigar, exactly, but also women resigning 93 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 1: themselves if they were in the financial position to do 94 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 1: so too, asylums or santatoriums, because they were also buying 95 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:30,359 Speaker 1: into this notion of the persistent female madness. And Elaine 96 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:32,919 Speaker 1: show Walter wrote an entire book about this called The 97 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:36,920 Speaker 1: Female Malady, Women Madness and English Culture, and she talks 98 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 1: about how similarly in the nineteenth century, the quote unquote 99 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 1: hysterical woman's stereotype was well established, she writes, in a 100 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 1: society that not only perceived women as childlike, irrational and 101 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 1: sexually unstable there's that sexuality again, but also rendered them 102 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 1: legally powerless and economically marginal. It isn't surprising that they 103 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 1: should have formed the gray are part of the residual 104 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: categories of deviance from which doctors drew a lucrative practice 105 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: and asylums much of their population. Yeah, and around this time, 106 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 1: I mean, you have Darwinism also making things even worse, 107 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 1: compounding the problem because the more women you put in asylums, 108 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 1: like Charles Dickens themselves said, it just confirms that women 109 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: must be weaker. Yeah, so you've got a lot of weird, 110 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: like invented social forces at work here, basically being like, 111 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 1: we shod probably just put you in an asylum. But 112 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 1: it was it didn't just clearly come out of thin air, 113 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 1: because from some of the earliest texts that we have, 114 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: there is already the framing of the unstable, irrational woman, 115 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 1: and so continuing this thread of female sexuality and the 116 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 1: panics surrounding it. If we fast forward to the twentieth century, 117 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 1: we have the terrifying emergence of the boy crazy younger girl. 118 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 1: And I wasn't able to find any scholarship on this, 119 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:10,559 Speaker 1: But as I was considering crazy in all the different 120 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 1: ways that crazy is applied to women, boy crazy stuck 121 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: out to me because there has to be some point 122 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 1: when girls became labeled as boy crazy. And I mean, 123 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: I was, you know, I'm a straight woman. I remember 124 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 1: being boy crazy when I, you know, hit twelve and 125 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 1: really up until I don't know, maybe like well still 126 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: um in some ways and um, but I wondered when 127 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 1: it became known to the broader world that hey, we 128 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:50,679 Speaker 1: are attracted to boys, and we we we want them, 129 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: we are passionate about them. We are It's like the 130 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 1: fandom culture that you see now directed at something like 131 00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 1: Game of Thrones, where people are all consumed by that 132 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 1: direct did two boys, and it really seems to go 133 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 1: a lot with the emergence of pop stars male pop 134 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 1: stars yea, and which we've talked about before about just 135 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:14,199 Speaker 1: the culture of like female fans absolutely chomping at the 136 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 1: bit to get closer to their teen idol stars and 137 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:22,079 Speaker 1: how it is so easy for music critics, for instance, 138 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 1: to dismiss them as hysterical Yeah, in there was something 139 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:31,080 Speaker 1: called the Columbus Day Riot that took place when thousands 140 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: of Bobby stocks Is as those adorable teen girls were 141 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 1: called rampage through Times Square in pursuit of Frank Sinatra, 142 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 1: and the event was described by a reporter as quote 143 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:49,960 Speaker 1: a phenomenon of mass hysteria, and parents were horrified by this. 144 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 1: I mean we talk a lot about you know, we 145 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 1: hear a lot about Elvis and how his gyrating hips 146 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 1: sent parents, you know, just terrified, wanting to keep send 147 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 1: all their daughters into convents. But Sinatra before that sent 148 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 1: girls into just paroxysms of lust, young lust with their 149 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 1: saddle Oxford shoes, SuDS. But yeah, I mean, if you 150 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 1: move forward into the sixties, we see it again on 151 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:21,440 Speaker 1: a much larger scale with Beatlemania. Uh, you know, girls 152 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 1: trying to jump over barricades, stalking them outside of their 153 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 1: Abbey Roads studio for all the you know, for the 154 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:31,440 Speaker 1: entire day. And Barbara Aaron Wrich writes about it, and 155 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:34,839 Speaker 1: she says that to abandon control, to scream faint dash 156 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: about in mobs was inform, if not unconscious, intent to 157 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 1: protest the sexual repressiveness, the rigid double standard of female 158 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 1: team culture. She says it was the first and miss 159 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 1: dramatic uprising of the women's sexual revolution. But it seems 160 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: like boy crazy is more dismissed in the same way 161 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 1: of just saying oh, she's boy crazy, in the same 162 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 1: way that that same girl when she is an adult 163 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:02,560 Speaker 1: will probably be written off at some point as being oh, 164 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: she's just crazy, or she's being a crazy witch, or 165 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:09,439 Speaker 1: you know what I'm actually thinking, not which well, I mean, 166 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: speaking of moving from she's just boy crazy too, that 167 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:17,680 Speaker 1: is a crazy woman, that woman is crazy and nuts. 168 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 1: We actually see a literal rise thanks to science and 169 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:25,320 Speaker 1: the Internet. Yeah. I did a google ingram search of 170 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 1: the terms crazy woman and crazy women, and it looked 171 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 1: through Google did all of its books and its online 172 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:37,359 Speaker 1: catalog going back to the eighteen hundreds and up to today, 173 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 1: and you see a sharp rise in the usage of 174 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 1: crazy women and crazy woman in the mid nineteen sixties. 175 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:51,319 Speaker 1: What's happening then, Oh, yeah, we have the sexual revolution, 176 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:54,560 Speaker 1: we have second wave feminism. We have women starting to 177 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 1: act in a way crazy and by crazy I mean 178 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 1: not in line with the former leave it to Beaver 179 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 1: fifties housewives role. Yeah, and I mean just the same 180 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 1: way that hysteria. The term hysteria or the idea of 181 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 1: it is tied in with a woman who has a libido. 182 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 1: God forbid, it's the same thing. It's it's the exact 183 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 1: same thing, just using the word crazy in place of hysteria. Yeah, 184 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 1: it's kind of fascinating to look at too. How pop 185 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 1: culturally crazy women are often not crazy so much due 186 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:31,559 Speaker 1: to their liberal gender politics these days, but more because 187 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 1: of their liberal sexual politics. I feel like crazy has 188 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:40,199 Speaker 1: evolved away from just being terrified of a woman who 189 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 1: really wants to be able to pay her own way 190 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 1: and be an a man still woman too, because we've 191 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 1: we've achieved a lot of that, But the one area 192 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 1: where there's still a lot of achievement to be made, 193 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 1: someone argue, is in the bedroom. Right, Yeah, you still 194 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 1: just have all of these really kind of muddle perceptions 195 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 1: of women when it comes to sex and what they want, 196 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 1: because you know, you think stereotypically like, okay, well men 197 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 1: want a woman who's like great in bed and they 198 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:13,080 Speaker 1: wanted to have a lot of sex all the time. 199 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 1: But when it comes to actual depictions in the media 200 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: of women who do have a high libido, she is 201 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 1: written off as crazy because it's like people don't know 202 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 1: what to do with her. Yeah, it's uh. The crazy 203 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 1: girlfriend trope is in a lot of ways the embodiment 204 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 1: of a sexual double standard that still exists. Not to 205 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 1: say that women and men who are in relationships don't 206 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: do things that are completely out of line and unpleasant 207 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 1: for the other person, but I'm speaking more to that stereotype. 208 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 1: Cracked dot com, for instance, it a roundup of crazy 209 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:52,960 Speaker 1: girlfriends and movies, and in the intro, the writer describes 210 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 1: it as this rare breed of woman who is always 211 00:13:56,280 --> 00:14:00,160 Speaker 1: ready and willing to have animal style sex. It's always 212 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:04,199 Speaker 1: about sex. Yeah, like Glenn Close and Fatal Attraction, or 213 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:08,560 Speaker 1: Isla Fisher's character in Wedding Crashers. Like people who are 214 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 1: you know, competent women, and then you know, the minute 215 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 1: that they want to have sex or a lot of sex, 216 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: or give hand jobs at dinner or whatever, like they're insane. Yeah, 217 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 1: that's when that's when things really start to cross the line. 218 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 1: And in trying to dig up a pop cultural timeline 219 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 1: of the crazy girlfriend, in two thousand one, there was 220 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 1: an article in The New York Times by writer Rick Marron, 221 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 1: and he describes the phenomenon of men loving crazy women, 222 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 1: And he writes early in the article, why do men 223 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 1: love crazy women? No one has ever asked the question, 224 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 1: so he takes it upon himself to say, who are 225 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 1: these crazy women? Well, he first describes someone who very 226 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 1: well might be mentally unstable. He starts out, this is 227 00:14:57,160 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: the mad, mad world of X rated eye contact, for 228 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: putatious disclosures of kinky passions, mysterious disappearances in the middle 229 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 1: of a party, searches for all night pharmacies, and rash 230 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: proposals to move to Palestine, Texas. Yeah, And then he 231 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 1: goes into actually describing um women who who men that 232 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 1: the interviewed have actually dated. Um one is the covert 233 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 1: operative with these delusions of grander. You know. She she 234 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: thinks that she's about to be at any moment, recruited 235 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: by the CIA. And it is interesting, like as we 236 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: go through these personalities, the links between the perceptions of 237 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 1: these crazy women and why men love them, and then 238 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: why men are so attracted to the manipixie dream girl. 239 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 1: It's the same kind of line being drawn because she's 240 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 1: cookie and she's quirky, and she's different from that other 241 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 1: woman you used to date. Because this one's really passionate 242 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: and bringing you out of your shell. Yeah. And then 243 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: he goes on to say, well, there's also the type 244 00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 1: who's the actress slash journal thief because she's so dramatic, 245 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: and then there's the tragic heroine. And he pulls up 246 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 1: a lot of literary examples like Zelda Fitzgerald, the Bronte Sisters, 247 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 1: Sylvia Plath, calling them alluring but ultimately destructive of themselves 248 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: and the men who made them their muse right, And 249 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 1: so a lot of this has to do with, as 250 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 1: we've already hammered home sex. He talks about the Casanova coefficient, 251 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 1: the behind the wild eyed look and uninhibited behavior. Men 252 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 1: fantasized must lie a crazy libido, and Details magazine calls 253 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: her this woman the ultimate addiction. Yeah, and they asked, well, 254 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 1: why why is it that men seem to be attracted 255 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 1: to this crazy type, Which, when you break it down, 256 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 1: by the way, into all of those different categories of 257 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 1: the covert, operative, the actress, et cetera, you're talking about 258 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 1: a lot of different types of women that's not just 259 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 1: one simple stock character. But nevertheless, Details says that, well, 260 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:04,159 Speaker 1: men with a savior complex really love it because they 261 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 1: can be the night and shining armor who can potentially 262 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 1: you know, rush in and you I mean, I will. 263 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 1: I will give that theory some credence in terms of 264 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 1: the fact that women tend to want to play savior 265 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:21,879 Speaker 1: as well. Sure, men plenty of times. Yeah, well you 266 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:24,200 Speaker 1: know they look at they look at the bad boy. 267 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:26,920 Speaker 1: How women always want the bad boy? Yeah, and compare 268 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 1: it to men wanting the crazy woman. And more than 269 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:35,400 Speaker 1: one person said something along the lines of like, well 270 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 1: you you date it, you don't marry it. Yeah. Well, 271 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 1: and in speaking of the bad boy. And by the way, 272 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 1: this is like a late note that this is a 273 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:47,199 Speaker 1: very teronormative conversation, um, because it's always the assumption that 274 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 1: men are drawn to the crazy woman. Um. But there's 275 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 1: that danger aspect as well, where the closer she skates 276 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: to the edge, the more enchanting she's become. But in 277 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:03,200 Speaker 1: speaking to detail else, I felt like Parker Posey, actress 278 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:06,880 Speaker 1: one of my favorites, actually summed her up really well, 279 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: because Posey has played so many crazy types. Even in 280 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 1: the most recent season of Louis, she comes on in 281 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 1: a fantastic character who's clearly mentally unstable and I felt 282 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 1: like she had a really solid grasp of digging through 283 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 1: all of those trophy kinds of things into the element 284 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:34,159 Speaker 1: that really drives that dynamic. Yeah, I would just like 285 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:37,399 Speaker 1: to say that I one of my favorite movies is 286 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:42,399 Speaker 1: Broken English I haven't seen with Parker Posey. Yeah, awesome movie, 287 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 1: and again she plays this very like lovely, delicate, fragile, 288 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,680 Speaker 1: mentally unstable woman who doesn't know how to handle relationships. 289 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:56,400 Speaker 1: But anyway to details, she said, I think whenever you're 290 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 1: taken by someone, be a male or female, who has 291 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 1: the potential to lose themselves or to transform in front 292 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 1: of you, there's something very attractive about that. It has 293 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:08,359 Speaker 1: the ability to transform you because someone has just thrown 294 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:10,440 Speaker 1: the marbles on the floor and you don't know when 295 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:13,160 Speaker 1: they're going to do it again. It's not a relationship 296 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 1: based on trust. And and what that quote made me 297 00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 1: think of was just those like super intense relationships. You know, 298 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 1: maybe you've been in one, maybe you've seen a friend 299 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 1: being one that are obviously so unhealthy and they obviously 300 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,359 Speaker 1: are so bad for each other, but they keep going 301 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: back because there's this this instability. You know, the ship 302 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:38,920 Speaker 1: is rocking back and forth and while it isn't healthy, 303 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 1: it's exciting. Yeah. And the reason why I liked Posy's 304 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 1: quote so much was because it cut through the gendering 305 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:49,879 Speaker 1: of it, because I feel like that one of the 306 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 1: main problems with the just dismissive, crazy girlfriend, crazy woman 307 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:58,160 Speaker 1: is that it's always putting the blame on something with 308 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 1: biology rather than and maybe something that is going on 309 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 1: with that person who's not so great at long term relationships, 310 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 1: or something that is drawing you to an instability, to 311 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:14,399 Speaker 1: a lack of trust. I myself have been in a 312 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:19,239 Speaker 1: relationship exactly of the type that Posey's describing, where the 313 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:25,440 Speaker 1: person I was drawn to was completely untrustworthy. But that's 314 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:27,680 Speaker 1: part of what propelled it for so long. That's part 315 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:31,159 Speaker 1: of what kept me chasing, just wondering if I could 316 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 1: at some point possessed this person, because it doesn't often 317 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:39,200 Speaker 1: trace back to possession, which clearly that's my issue. That's 318 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 1: you know, that's problematic in and of itself. Yeah, exactly. 319 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 1: And David Rabe, who's a playwright and author of Hurley 320 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 1: Burley Hammers at Home to that I think underlying it 321 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 1: all is sex. He says that the sexual state seems 322 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 1: more present more up close in that type of woman. 323 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 1: And he talks about, you know, this disheveled personality and 324 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 1: and that's just goed by a psychologist William Pollock who 325 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:06,639 Speaker 1: wrote the book Real Boys, and he talks about how 326 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:09,879 Speaker 1: those feelings, as intense feelings, whether it is sexual or 327 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 1: just emotional, men aren't supposed to have those feelings. They're 328 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:18,400 Speaker 1: supposed to be like robots. You know, we're we train 329 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 1: our boys from such a young age too, you know, 330 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 1: dispense with emotion, that that's such a feminine woman thing. 331 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:29,119 Speaker 1: And so he uh. Pollock writes that men are trained 332 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 1: early to purge so called female emotions and behaviors. So 333 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 1: by dating these disheveled personalities, by having intense sexual relationships 334 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 1: with them, they get that fulfillment vicariously. And he says 335 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:46,120 Speaker 1: in extremists, woman is pure feeling, very exciting, obsessionally involved, 336 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:48,680 Speaker 1: very willing to cry one moment and be funny the next. 337 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: This is not only attractive to a man because he 338 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 1: doesn't have it, but because it's a part of himself 339 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:57,360 Speaker 1: he's not allowed to express. I mean, I buy that 340 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 1: up to a point. Um, I think that it's I 341 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: think it is more fluid than that, But the first 342 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:08,200 Speaker 1: thought that pops into my head is that I really 343 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:12,919 Speaker 1: do feel like the bad boy is the male version 344 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 1: of the crazy woman. But the difference lies in the 345 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,160 Speaker 1: fact that a lot of times bad boy relationships are 346 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,879 Speaker 1: framed as women being drawn to them is something that 347 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: they ultimately want to save, whereas men are drawn to 348 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 1: crazy women with the knowledge that they are ultimately going 349 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 1: to dispose of them. Because in the same way that 350 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 1: women will say, I know I'm not supposed to you know, 351 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:38,639 Speaker 1: you date the bad boy, don't marry him, but you 352 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:42,119 Speaker 1: still want to you know, it's still that thing, whereas 353 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 1: and it's crass, but I've heard it echoed among guy 354 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 1: friends of you have sex with crazy, but you don't 355 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 1: take her on a date. And to take this conversation 356 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 1: to an even grittier level, let's ramp it up from 357 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:04,440 Speaker 1: just the crazy girlfriend to the crazy B word, because 358 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 1: that is an even more recent escalation of all of this, 359 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:15,400 Speaker 1: of which is the crazy It is Halloween season. Yeah, 360 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:20,639 Speaker 1: I mean, if you're looking at an excellent slash terrible 361 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 1: way to dismiss a woman who is not talking to 362 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 1: you the way you want her to, or holding the 363 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 1: attitude that you think she should. It is so easy 364 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:33,480 Speaker 1: to say that blieps be crazy. Well, and I think 365 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 1: that beliefs be crazy too. Is a product of the 366 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 1: expectations of of a woman performing sexually in one way 367 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:47,200 Speaker 1: or another, and when she stops wanting to act either 368 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 1: that way, it's like, it's just it's all I catch 369 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 1: twenty two Caroline, where it's you give too much or 370 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,160 Speaker 1: you give too little, and either way you're gonna be 371 00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 1: a crazy woman girl? Which what what you? But this 372 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 1: ties into something that kind of hit me in the 373 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 1: side of the head and made me stop when I 374 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 1: was reading a lot of these articles, which is gas lighting. 375 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:15,159 Speaker 1: This is honestly, I was not aware of this term, Kristen. 376 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:17,919 Speaker 1: I did not know it, but it really struck me. 377 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 1: Um the problem with calling women crazy, especially if they're 378 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 1: not actively like you know, trying to set animals on fire, 379 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 1: like if they're not if they're literally if they do 380 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:33,920 Speaker 1: not have a mental health condition, and you're calling them 381 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 1: crazy and you're dismissing them. Uh, it is a form 382 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:41,439 Speaker 1: of gaslighting, which is a form of emotional manipulation that 383 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,680 Speaker 1: tricks women into believing that their emotions aren't valid. Now, 384 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 1: this term comes from the nineteen four film Gaslights during 385 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: Ingrid Bergman. But what really struck me is I realized 386 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:54,640 Speaker 1: that I finally had a name for what an ex 387 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 1: had done to me, which is this is this person 388 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,400 Speaker 1: who does this tends to be like a highly manipulative, 389 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 1: almost sociopathic personality, and they constantly are making you feel 390 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:12,160 Speaker 1: insecure both about yourself, about your choices, about your feelings, 391 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 1: and so that when they do something terrible to you 392 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 1: and you try to confront them on it, they are like, 393 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: you're crazy, You're just imagining that, and so you're almost 394 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,960 Speaker 1: afraid to bring anything up again. And that's such a 395 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 1: cycle of terrible manipulation. Absolutely. And the reason why it's 396 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,840 Speaker 1: named after that Hitchcock film with Ingrid Bergman is because 397 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:40,440 Speaker 1: in the movie, her husband turns down without her knowing, obviously, 398 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 1: turns down the gas lights in the house whenever she 399 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 1: like walks down. I can't remember if it's her walking 400 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,119 Speaker 1: down a hallway or whatever it is, but it's almost 401 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 1: like a Pavlovian trigger where whenever she goes somewhere, the 402 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 1: lights dim and she tells him about it, and even 403 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 1: though he's been the one obviously manipulating the lights, he 404 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 1: tells her she's crazy, to the point that she starts 405 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 1: to also believe that she's crazy because he's completely manipulated her. 406 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:13,480 Speaker 1: And again it's that catch twenty two, so that no 407 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 1: matter what the responses to a guy, you can be 408 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: written off as crazy. So in your your situation, say 409 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,639 Speaker 1: with his ex boyfriend, if he did something that was 410 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:29,920 Speaker 1: reprehensible and you naturally reacted, if you there's a pattern 411 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,679 Speaker 1: of that gas lighting, then no matter what, even if 412 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:37,360 Speaker 1: what you have to say is perfectly valid, you're still 413 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 1: the crazy one. Yeah, because I mean, you should just 414 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 1: roll with it, Caroline. I know, it's it's all my fault. 415 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,880 Speaker 1: I should have just rolled with it. And and it does. 416 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 1: Like when you constantly do feel crazy and you're being 417 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 1: and it's being reinforced that you're overemotional and overreacting, that 418 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:58,439 Speaker 1: leads in and of itself to irrational behavior. So you 419 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,239 Speaker 1: might have been perfectly in the right before, but like 420 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 1: let's say you, you know, you finally feel frustrated enough 421 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 1: to yell or to shed some tears or something like that, 422 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,879 Speaker 1: all that does is reinforced to both of you that 423 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 1: you're unstable. Yeah, especially when it's a display an outward 424 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 1: display of emotion, of breaking down, of crying. I feel 425 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 1: like that's when the crazy accusations really come out. And 426 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 1: a lot of these conversations about calling women crazy and 427 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 1: the gas lighting issue is directed at men, of saying, hey, 428 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 1: stop calling women crazy, but we do it to women 429 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:35,880 Speaker 1: as well. We can do it to guys as well. 430 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,119 Speaker 1: It's not like it cuts one way only. It's not 431 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 1: like we are constantly just being victims of you know, 432 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 1: men calling people crazy. I have to catch myself with 433 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 1: the crazy tick too, because even just by it's a 434 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:57,400 Speaker 1: dictionary definition of ranging from absolute insanity to just really 435 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:03,160 Speaker 1: being really really enthusiastic. It's it's almost too too applicable 436 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,440 Speaker 1: to too many things. Yeah, I mean, you know, we 437 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:11,240 Speaker 1: talked about how we need to work harder to try 438 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,879 Speaker 1: to figure out what we mean when we call someone bossy. 439 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 1: We need to work harder and and not be as 440 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 1: lazy as to call someone crazy. I didn't go into 441 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,960 Speaker 1: that intending to rhyme, but uh, to think about what 442 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 1: we actually mean when we're using that term, whether it's 443 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:27,720 Speaker 1: for a manner for a woman, and if you're in 444 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 1: a relationship and you're hearing that term a lot, to 445 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:34,639 Speaker 1: maybe ask yourself, what is going on here? Why is 446 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:38,240 Speaker 1: this being told to me? UM? And I we should 447 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 1: also note that in UM some circles crazy and just 448 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 1: throwing it around as it often is, is considered ablest 449 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 1: because it undermines some actual mental health issues that are 450 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 1: going on day to day in the population. UM. But 451 00:28:56,160 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 1: speaking of mental illness crazy women is a misrepresentation, even 452 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 1: though you know in the Victorian era it was women 453 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 1: who were filling up asylums. But if you go over 454 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:11,520 Speaker 1: to the World Health Organization you can read overall rates 455 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 1: of psychiatric disorder almost identical for men and women, but 456 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 1: striking gender differences are found in the patterns of mental illness. 457 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 1: So gender has effects on the things that we all 458 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 1: suffer from, but also how we how and whether we 459 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 1: seek treatment and what kind of treatment we even get, because, 460 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 1: for instance, being a woman itself is a huge predicator 461 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 1: of being prescribed mood altering drugs. And when you have 462 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 1: all these stereotypes of what affects whom standing in the way, 463 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 1: or maybe one person is crazy and somebody else is 464 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:52,480 Speaker 1: not for the same behavior, that's just a barrier to 465 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 1: getting the kind of care you need. Right, And this 466 00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 1: final quote from the w h oh really jumped out 467 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 1: to me when I read it as to why the 468 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 1: whole women are crazy meme, if you can call it, 469 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 1: that is so practically problematic and more of a mental 470 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 1: health setting. Uh, the right gender determines the differential power 471 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 1: and control men and women have over the socioeconomic determinants 472 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 1: of their mental health and lives, their social position, status 473 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 1: and treatment in society, and their susceptibility and exposure to 474 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 1: specific mental health risks. So there are these massive ripple effects. 475 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 1: Things are interconnected. The way that we use language is powerful. 476 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 1: And this isn't an argument for eradicating crazy. And again 477 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,280 Speaker 1: I think that women can be as equally guilty of 478 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 1: this as men. It cuts many different ways, But maybe 479 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 1: it's an encouragement for you, me, everybody listening to take 480 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 1: a moment and consider what we really mean and what 481 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 1: we're really hearing. Maybe start out with like I have, uh, 482 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 1: you know plenty of guy friends who I have heard, 483 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: you know, describing women as crazy for one reason or another. 484 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,800 Speaker 1: And maybe it's it's important to when you hear your friends, 485 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 1: male or female, saying stuff like that, to speak up 486 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 1: and say, well, what do you mean? Like, what did 487 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 1: what did that person do yeah, it was it Was 488 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 1: it just that they wanted to have sex with you? 489 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 1: Or or was it like something like they actually left 490 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 1: a dead animal on your front yard? Like what do 491 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 1: you mean when you say crazy? Exactly? Um, And unlike 492 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 1: a lot of other podcasts, this episode was not riddled 493 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 1: with journal citations because I was kind of astounded to 494 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 1: discover that there has been little to no research on this. 495 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 1: There's been a lot of investigation into pathologizing mental illness 496 00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 1: and women, but not this linguistic tick of crazy women, 497 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:58,240 Speaker 1: crazy witches, hysterical beatlemania, just continue to dismiss women in 498 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 1: every possible way we can. But I hope that this 499 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 1: resonated though, and can start a conversation with listeners men 500 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 1: and women that we really want to hear from you 501 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 1: on this topic, because I don't think it's being talked 502 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 1: about enough. I mean, the gas flighting article went viral, 503 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 1: but since then, I feel like it's just kind of 504 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 1: been recycled over and over again. There's not been a 505 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 1: lot of digging to see like, oh wait, why though, 506 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 1: why is this this way? In two thousand thirteen, it's 507 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 1: it's a control tactic of manipulators, But why is it 508 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 1: so widespread. It's not like it's just sociopaths walking around calling, 509 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 1: you know, doing this gas lighting. Well, it goes back. 510 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 1: We've been gas We've been gas lit since fourth century BC. 511 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 1: So let's start a conversation. And mom Stuff at Discovery 512 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 1: dot com is where you can email us. You can 513 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:46,880 Speaker 1: find us on Facebook as well and tweet us at 514 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 1: Mom's Stuff podcast. And we've got a couple of letters 515 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 1: to share with you when we come right back from 516 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:57,840 Speaker 1: a quick break. And now back to our letters. Well, 517 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 1: I've got one here from Isaac and speaking of the 518 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,760 Speaker 1: word bossy, as we mentioned in the podcast, he writes, 519 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 1: Hello ladies, Hello Isaac. First, I'm a big fan of 520 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 1: the show. I've been listening for a year now, and 521 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,560 Speaker 1: you both consistently impressed with your even handedness on very 522 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 1: difficult subjects. Well, I thank you, Isaac. Maybe I'm using 523 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 1: the word wrong, but I have two boys and I 524 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 1: call him bossy regularly. To me, bossy has a component offectlessness, 525 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 1: which doesn't always seem present in the usage on the show. 526 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 1: A bossy person wants to be the boss but can't 527 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 1: because he's incompetent. Anyway, just my two cents, and that's 528 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 1: an interesting definition of bossy and another reason why it's 529 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 1: problematic if that women are so typically called bossy, because 530 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 1: maybe there's an undercurrent of, oh, you want to be 531 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 1: the boss, but you're totally incompetent and you're throwing a 532 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 1: tantem because you can't think exactly. So thanks for that 533 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 1: observation and for listening. Isaac and I have a letter 534 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:04,240 Speaker 1: here from Catherine in response to our diamond engagement ring episode, 535 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 1: and she wanted to answer our inquiry that we've put 536 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,400 Speaker 1: out regarding gay and lesbian couples and their take on 537 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:14,080 Speaker 1: engagement rings. She says, my girlfriend and I had been 538 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,399 Speaker 1: discussing marriage and what we wanted to do about rings 539 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 1: for a couple of months before we got engaged. Neither 540 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,360 Speaker 1: one of us saw the value of getting expensive rings, 541 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,640 Speaker 1: and my now fiancee specifically didn't want a diamond. We 542 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,160 Speaker 1: did both agree, though, that we wanted engagement rings to 543 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:30,920 Speaker 1: symbolize our promises and love. I was based on my 544 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,480 Speaker 1: job in our relationship dynamic, the person who was going 545 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:35,959 Speaker 1: to do the asking and the ring buying. I found 546 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:39,120 Speaker 1: an independent jewelry maker on a website with nature inspired 547 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:42,160 Speaker 1: wedding band and engagement ring sets made from reclaimed silver 548 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:46,799 Speaker 1: and gold and recycled or responsibly sourceable stones, all things 549 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 1: that really mattered to us in the ring buying process. 550 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,319 Speaker 1: Our rings coordinate but don't match. They both look like 551 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,400 Speaker 1: tiny bird's nest surrounding a single stone on a silver band. 552 00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,359 Speaker 1: Mine is white topaz with a gold nest, and hers 553 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,839 Speaker 1: is a gray pearl with a silver nest. We adore them. 554 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 1: They are so much more reflective of our personalities and 555 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,040 Speaker 1: represent our relationship in our opinion, better than a diamond 556 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:10,880 Speaker 1: ring could have. Long story short, I ordered them and 557 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:14,120 Speaker 1: when they arrive, I planned a weekend away to make 558 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:19,799 Speaker 1: it official. So thank you for your email, Catherine, and congratulations. Yeah, 559 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 1: and thanks to everyone who's written in Mom Stuff at 560 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,320 Speaker 1: discovery dot com is where you can send your emails. 561 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:26,759 Speaker 1: You can find us over on Facebook, send us a 562 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:28,719 Speaker 1: message like us while you're at it, and you can 563 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 1: follow us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. You can 564 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:36,399 Speaker 1: also follow us on Instagram at stuff mom never told you, 565 00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:41,279 Speaker 1: where we post so many fantastic photos I'm sure you'll love. 566 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:45,280 Speaker 1: And speaking of loving, we've got more than one hundred 567 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:50,719 Speaker 1: videos that you might love over on YouTube. 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