Speaker 1: On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women
Speaker 1: and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, EFFI bast
Speaker 1: start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.
Speaker 2: Oh gosh, welcome to the Bachdell Cast.
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, ready to party, Ready to sausage party?
Speaker 2: Yes I am, because today is my shameless plugging day.
Speaker 2: Today is the day where we are doing a movie
Speaker 2: that is technically about hot dogs but is also I
Speaker 2: don't know, I don't know, uh, but we're celebrating the
Speaker 2: release of Raw Dog, my first book. When you're hearing this,
Speaker 2: it will be out. You should definitely go buy it
Speaker 2: at your local bookstore. Don't know, Amazon, fuckery. Please I'll
Speaker 2: accept the Barnes and Noble, but only if you're in
Speaker 2: a difficult like only if you're not near an independent books,
Speaker 2: which you probably are, So go get It's my book
Speaker 2: about the history of hot dogs and a road trip
Speaker 2: I took in twenty twenty one trying hot dogs across
Speaker 2: the country. It is about leftist politics, it is about workers' rights,
Speaker 2: it is about the history of like how American jingoism
Speaker 2: is connected to the hot dog It's about following people
Speaker 2: around in the Wienermobile. It's about falling in love with
Speaker 2: Joey Chestnut. But also it's complicated and I don't really
Speaker 2: fuck with him, but I do have a crush on him,
Speaker 2: gross problematic fave Joey Chestnut and my king to Karo Kobyashi,
Speaker 2: as well as all of the kind of twisted bizarre. Well,
Speaker 2: this is actually maybe where it overlaps with Sausage Party,
Speaker 2: which we're talking about today, which mercifully does not come
Speaker 2: up in the book. I did not there, there is
Speaker 2: no space, and I didn't want to know. I just
Speaker 2: didn't want to. But in Professional hot Dog Eating, there's
Speaker 2: a lot of historical issues regarding racism and gender discrimination
Speaker 2: within that sport. Yes, it's a sport. No, I will
Speaker 2: not be taking questions or arguments about it. It is
Speaker 2: a sport, and that is something that has in common
Speaker 2: with the movie we're discussing today, So shameless plunge.
Speaker 3: And racism and yes, all of those things, yes huh.
Speaker 2: But one thing it doesn't have that Sausage Party does
Speaker 2: is bad writing. It's a good book. I should buy it,
Speaker 2: and I or if you're not in a position to
Speaker 2: buy it. We'll link in this episode of different ways
Speaker 2: to request that it be brought to your local library.
Speaker 2: That's also a great way. There's also an audio book
Speaker 2: that's narrated by me, but they're like, hey, podcaster getting
Speaker 2: that booth and I did. And my audio engineer's name
Speaker 2: was Tim, and he was a vegan, and he was like,
Speaker 2: oh my god, oh gee whiz. We really learned from
Speaker 2: each other that week. He's from New Zealand, kind of iconic,
Speaker 2: and he's like, I can't do anyw Zealand accent. But
Speaker 2: he was like, this country is so fucked and I
Speaker 2: was like, that's right, Tim, that's right. And that's an
Speaker 2: example of something that did not pass the Bechdel test.
Speaker 2: Me and Tim shooting the shit. Yeah. Was it pleasant, yes,
Speaker 2: of course, but did not pass.
Speaker 3: And which what a wonderful transition to our show and
Speaker 3: what it's about. So this is the Bechdel Cast.
Speaker 2: Hello.
Speaker 3: My name is Caitlin Derante.
Speaker 2: My name is Jamie loftis author of Raw Dog Out Now.
Speaker 3: And this is our show where we analyze movies through
Speaker 3: an intersectional feminist lens using the Bechdel It was a
Speaker 3: weird way to say that using the Bechtel test simply
Speaker 3: as a jumping off point to initiate a far larger
Speaker 3: conversation about representation and such in FLIM. The Bechdel test
Speaker 3: being a media metric sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace test
Speaker 3: that first appeared in Alison Bechdel Queer icon queer cartoonist
Speaker 3: Alison Bechdel's comic Dykes to Watch out For. Originally intended
Speaker 3: just as sort of like a one off joke, it
Speaker 3: was a bit, but it has since been used as
Speaker 3: this media metric. There are many versions of it. The
Speaker 3: one that we use is this two characters of a
Speaker 3: marginalized gender must have names. Those characters have to talk
Speaker 3: to each other about something other than a man, and
Speaker 3: we particularly enjoy it when it is a narratively meaningful
Speaker 3: conversation and not just a hi, hot dog number one Hello.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Also, I resent the aggressive gendering of the hot dog
Speaker 2: expanded universe. Hot dogs are Look, they're beautiful. They don't
Speaker 2: know gender, and this is I mean it, Katelyn, no love.
Speaker 2: I love these damn things.
Speaker 3: I love to eat hot dogs.
Speaker 2: When they're ethically produced. I'm smiling, and they don't know gender.
Speaker 2: They transcend gender and class. That's the whole point of
Speaker 2: a hot dog there for everybody. Why according to this
Speaker 2: movie that's rogan God, we'll talk about it. Got well,
Speaker 2: actually I have a lot of hot dog gendering thoughts,
Speaker 2: which we'll get around to. But yes, this movie, I mean,
Speaker 2: for it's many flaws. It does pass the Bexel test,
Speaker 2: not the way as I particularly like. Oh it's heinous,
Speaker 2: but yeah, but that's why we talk about all the time.
Speaker 2: It's a flawed metric. It was created as a bit.
Speaker 2: But there's plenty to talk about. And boy, oh boy,
Speaker 2: this movie came out in twenty sixteen, but it really
Speaker 2: feels like it came out in two thousand and four.
Speaker 2: It has like huge two thousand and four vibes. But
Speaker 2: it was a I kind of forgot we were talking
Speaker 2: about this earlier. I forgot that Sausage Party was apparently
Speaker 2: a huge hit.
Speaker 3: Yes, it was like a box office smash hit. It
Speaker 3: was for a while the highest grossing R rated movie
Speaker 3: ever until it was really such a bummer. Oh sorry, okay,
Speaker 3: I made some stuff up. It was the highest grossing
Speaker 3: R rated animated film, not R rated film in general,
Speaker 3: but which R rated animated film because it grossed one
Speaker 3: hundred and forty one million dollars at the box office
Speaker 3: against a budget of nineteen million dollars, which is a
Speaker 3: low budget for an animated feature. And will go into
Speaker 3: how that happened later. The budget on this movie is
Speaker 3: low for.
Speaker 2: A animated and then I have a lot of feelings
Speaker 2: on animation labor. Yeah, well, sEH, we'll get to Animators
Speaker 2: are treated so horribly and people across the spectrum in
Speaker 2: terms of jobs in animation are just treated terribly. And
Speaker 2: this also it also feels like it ties into conversations
Speaker 2: that have gone on in the last couple of years
Speaker 2: around effects workers in Marvel movies, where that's constantly been
Speaker 2: like people working overtime and then not just being worked
Speaker 2: to death. And you know, the whole ethos is like
Speaker 2: you should be lucky to work on a Marvel movie,
Speaker 2: and it's like, go fuck yourself. Yes, but yees, so
Speaker 2: it was a pretty big hit and I'm realizing Kaitlyn. I,
Speaker 2: first of all, I appreciate that you were willing to
Speaker 2: do a hot dog themed movie to line up.
Speaker 3: With Oh yeah, this was my idea.
Speaker 2: Sorry hot Dog, which is which dog out?
Speaker 1: Now?
Speaker 2: I will say I thought this was the only movie
Speaker 2: about hot dogs, but shows what I fucking know because
Speaker 2: my friend Mitch last night gave me a DVD for
Speaker 2: something called hot Dog the Movie. Why that came out
Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty four. Well, I haven't read this anopsis yet, Okay,
Speaker 2: I've had It's definitely share it. Well, of course I can.
Speaker 2: Let me get the sticker off. Hold on, Okay, there's
Speaker 2: a booklet inside. How we're gonna just read the beginning
Speaker 2: good snowballs and powder bunnies, the sex tactic, slapstick slaloam
Speaker 2: of hot Dog the movie? What hot Dogs the movie?
Speaker 2: I'm not even following. I think it's a skiing movie
Speaker 2: is Also what's gonna do? Is the whole thing appears
Speaker 2: to take place at a Let's find out what Dog
Speaker 2: the movie is. This is the supreme Bacchanalian Ski movie blowout,
Speaker 2: toward which all previous Bacchanalian Ski movie blowouts has led,
Speaker 2: and from which all subsequent Bachanalian Ski movie blowouts have
Speaker 2: since proceeded. Backward, upside down and drunkenly spinning through the
Speaker 2: air between snow capped jumping off points, hitting theaters in
Speaker 2: early nineteen eighty four, at the ascending peak of post
Speaker 2: Porky's teen sex comedy mania. Oh Boy, hot Dog's protagonists
Speaker 2: may not have been in high school or college, but
Speaker 2: the movie's ski lodge setting and r rated raunch landed
Speaker 2: it squarely in the cannon of high eighties adolescent anarchy farces.
Speaker 3: Let me just keep us So this is like a bias,
Speaker 3: a biography of the movie more than a synopsis.
Speaker 2: I'm under real this is a movie about skiing. Why
Speaker 2: is it called hot Dog the movie? Wait? Hang on,
Speaker 2: I'm getting pissed off. I'm getting pissed off. Let's google where? Yeah,
Speaker 2: when is when the hot dogs coming?
Speaker 3: Are the skiers?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 3: Are the wait?
Speaker 2: It's about? The film stars Patrick Hawser as Harken Banks,
Speaker 2: a young and ambitious freestyle skier from Bonners Ferry, Idaho,
Speaker 2: who's determined to prove himself in the freestyle skiing competition
Speaker 2: at Squaw Valley. Along the way, he teams with a
Speaker 2: there's no hot dogs in this movie.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just about it's a teen sex comedy about
Speaker 3: freestyle skiers.
Speaker 2: Well, that has nothing to do with hot dogs, And
Speaker 2: I'm pissed. Apparently this movie made it budget back eleven times.
Speaker 2: Not that he has ever heard of it, and hopefully
Speaker 2: that's what will happen to the movie we're discussing as
Speaker 2: today as well, Sausage Party. Caitlin Doranday, what's her history
Speaker 2: with this movie?
Speaker 3: I did not see it in theaters, but I did
Speaker 3: see it shortly after it came out, because there was
Speaker 3: a lot of buzz about this movie. Not only was
Speaker 3: it a box office hit, it was critically well received.
Speaker 2: It has eighty two percent on Rotten Tomatoes, which is
Speaker 2: unexplained that the male I remember being shocked by that
Speaker 2: at the time too, because this was shortly before the
Speaker 2: Bechdel Cast began. Yeah, this came out the summer before
Speaker 2: mm hm.
Speaker 3: So I saw it sometime later in twenty sixteen, and
Speaker 3: remember thinking, and this was before I was like, like
Speaker 3: you said, this was before we started the Bechdel Cast.
Speaker 3: So even though like representation was on my mind when
Speaker 3: I was watching movies, you know, we didn't have quite
Speaker 3: the nuanced takes that we do now.
Speaker 2: But you don't need a nuanced view of cinema to
Speaker 2: realize that.
Speaker 3: I would say that this is one of the worst
Speaker 3: movies I've ever seen from a storytelling point of view
Speaker 3: and from a representation point of view, It's just abysmal
Speaker 3: in every imaginable way.
Speaker 2: It's a really And it's interesting to read back the
Speaker 2: good reviews of this movie because there is sort of
Speaker 2: a lot of like and I do think it has
Speaker 2: to do with how beloved seth Rogen is by pop
Speaker 2: culture and by the general culture in general, and general
Speaker 2: culture in general, Jae come on, and I'm like, we're
Speaker 2: not knocking Seth Rogen fans, Like I've enjoyed a lot
Speaker 2: of Seth Rogen over the years, although I did used
Speaker 2: to say I would deport them to Canada, which was
Speaker 2: not nice of me, but no, I mean it's like
Speaker 2: I've I've enjoyed a lot of Seth Rogen's work. This
Speaker 2: is just really not I don't know. I felt a
Speaker 2: sort of like in reading a lot of reviews, a
Speaker 2: lot of bending over backwards to make this movie okay
Speaker 2: because Seth Rogan made it and like all these beloved
Speaker 2: comedians of this era made it. And I do wonder
Speaker 2: what how this movie would be received if it came
Speaker 2: out now. And also like reading about the ostensible like
Speaker 2: intentions that the writers had, like where they were like,
Speaker 2: it's this is something that we'll get into it but
Speaker 2: it just like never ever, ever, ever, ever works when
Speaker 2: someone's like, this movie is equal opportunity offensive, no one
Speaker 2: is safe from my pen and it's just like, well,
Speaker 2: that completely ignores any dynamics of like privilege or who
Speaker 2: gets to make most movies, So that does not work.
Speaker 2: And it's just like I was reading in the reviews
Speaker 2: of this that I don't know, like the closest I
Speaker 2: could say to something positive about this movie is that
Speaker 2: it's attempting to say something about faith. I don't think
Speaker 2: it successfully does. I understand that it's attempting to. But
Speaker 2: everything else is just like presenting very broad stereotypes in
Speaker 2: a way that is not presenting the I was not seeing.
Speaker 2: The commentary that was implied in some of these reviews
Speaker 2: is I'm like commenting on what exactly exactly what does
Speaker 2: Bill Hayter playing a native character in the most broadly
Speaker 2: offensive way possible on multiple levels? What does that comment anything?
Speaker 3: Yeah, the critical consensus on Rotten Tomatoes.
Speaker 2: Is which, again, Rotten Tomatoes is like a shitty metric, but.
Speaker 3: So people consult it like I go on Rotten Tomatoes
Speaker 3: to be like should I see this movie?
Speaker 2: I don't know sure?
Speaker 3: But the critic consensus is Sausage Party is definitely offensive.
Speaker 3: I agree with that, but backs up its enthusiastic profanity
Speaker 3: with an impressively high laugh to gag Ratio. I do
Speaker 3: not agree with that because I did not laugh fucking once.
Speaker 2: No, it's all puns.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like, it's all bad, and I love a pun,
Speaker 3: but none of these puns are good.
Speaker 2: I don't.
Speaker 3: And then then the final part of this is so
Speaker 3: it's you know, it backs up the enthusiastic profanity with
Speaker 3: an impressively high laugh to gag Ratio and a surprisingly
Speaker 3: thought provoking storyline.
Speaker 2: Also, no, I like truly the no no like this
Speaker 2: is I went to a letterboxed on this one as well,
Speaker 2: just to get a fe I love letterbox reviews a lot.
Speaker 2: Oh they're great. The top review is I'm only four
Speaker 2: minutes into this, but I think this is the most
Speaker 2: evil movie I've ever seen. And I hard agree with that.
Speaker 2: And this is why we need better movies about hot dogs.
Speaker 2: And I would I I'm you know, I'm not even
Speaker 2: throwing my hat in the ring. I am the fucking ring.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna make a hot dog movie that doesn't suck ass.
Speaker 2: This is my history with this movie is that I
Speaker 2: saw it similar shortly after it came out, because but
Speaker 2: I remember like seeing it with a friend that we
Speaker 2: were watching it again. We hadn't started the Betel cast.
Speaker 2: But it doesn't mean we weren't feminists or like didn't
Speaker 2: have a brain that like. I saw it because I
Speaker 2: thought I would be a like really upset and annoyed
Speaker 2: by it, and so we watched it kind of as
Speaker 2: like a joke. Yeah, and you know, sure enough, I
Speaker 2: fucking hated it. I may have written about it at
Speaker 2: the time. This was back when I was doing a
Speaker 2: lot of like writing. I mean, I was like a
Speaker 2: full time writer on various websites. Wow brag, thank you.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I'm pretty sure I wrote an essay about
Speaker 2: it for Paste at the time, not about Sausage Party
Speaker 2: in particular, but like this like manchild comedy that I
Speaker 2: think has since this is kind of like as far
Speaker 2: as I can tell, at least in the hugely popular
Speaker 2: sense kind of the tail end of it. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: it had a fucking run. I would say that this
Speaker 2: like style of broadly offensive humor that employs all of
Speaker 2: these fucking tropes that says it saying something, but it's not.
Speaker 2: And it's pretty fucking evil, is they. It had a good,
Speaker 2: like decade long kind of choke hold on comedy in.
Speaker 3: Movies, and it was like the Judd Apatow era.
Speaker 2: Well, it's like yeah, and it's like that's the thing
Speaker 2: that's fascinating, frustrating whatever about it is like even Judd
Speaker 2: Apatow and Seth Rogan don't do shit like this anymore
Speaker 2: because I don't think that they can get away with it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I know Seth has Seth Rogan not been like, oops,
Speaker 3: I made some stuff back in the day that I
Speaker 3: can't really vouch for anymore. Did that happen, Yes, definitely, Yeah,
Speaker 3: he did so.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think it is kind of interesting that in
Speaker 2: the last two years, it appears this like started in
Speaker 2: twenty twenty one, Seth Rogan has attempted to sort of
Speaker 2: address past offensive both like content in movies and treatment
Speaker 2: of people, if not from him specifically by a production
Speaker 2: that he was involved whether or in charge of. So.
Speaker 2: Examples would include i'ma Watson and this is the end
Speaker 2: Catherine Heigel in Knocked Up, and I'm also seeing an
Speaker 2: incident regarding a child actor in Good Boys, a movie
Speaker 2: I did not see having their skin darkened. Oh yeah,
Speaker 2: So there was this sort of I don't want to
Speaker 2: be too reductive and say apology tour like, but a
Speaker 2: series of like this is such a I don't know,
Speaker 2: but they're okay in any case. My opinion is that
Speaker 2: Sausage Party is too recent to be doing but it
Speaker 2: does feel like this all that to say, Sausage Party
Speaker 2: feels like arriving at the tail end of this style
Speaker 2: of comedy being extremely mainstream popular.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it still has a long way to go,
Speaker 3: but there was kind of like a cultural turning point,
Speaker 3: like right around this time where media and especially comedy
Speaker 3: wasn't so reliant on reductive stereotypes and tropes and punching
Speaker 3: down humor, which we've talked about many times on the show.
Speaker 3: That became way less popular right around this time.
Speaker 2: Yes, and this it's because the Bechtel no kidding.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, we fixed the world. You're welcome, everybody, no
Speaker 3: of it.
Speaker 2: I do think it like has I mean whatever, We're
Speaker 2: not historians or anthropologists, but this comes out, you know,
Speaker 2: the summer before the twenty sixteen election, which I feel
Speaker 2: like was a marked kind of a huge shift in
Speaker 2: demanding better representation for sure in movies. Was that successful
Speaker 2: still TBD, working on it, work in progress. But I
Speaker 2: do take a little bit of comfort in watching this
Speaker 2: movie that was a hit in twenty sixteen and feeling
Speaker 2: pretty confident that it probably couldn't even get green lid
Speaker 2: here right now. So that makes me feel a little better.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I saw this movie as a joke. I
Speaker 2: have not thought of it since really, I mean to
Speaker 2: the point where I literally wrote a book about hot
Speaker 2: dogs and didn't even think to include it. Right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it has no lasting legacy, which is comforting.
Speaker 2: No, and I don't think I think, especially because of
Speaker 2: the style of humor being so broad and I think evil,
Speaker 2: as well as the labor issues that sort of stuck
Speaker 2: to this movie for several years. I know that there's
Speaker 2: been interest in a sequel from Seth Rogan, but I
Speaker 2: just personally I don't see it happening. However, Caitlin. In
Speaker 2: October twenty twenty two, Sausage Party Food Topia, a sequel
Speaker 2: series based on the film, was greenlt from Amazon Studios.
Speaker 2: So too, well, you know, uh, look at look at God,
Speaker 2: which is what this movie says it's about, but it's not. Yeah,
Speaker 2: should we get into. This movie really is viscerally upset. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and it's there's so many like I mean, this is
Speaker 2: true of a lot of the there's like a lot
Speaker 2: of performers I genuinely enjoy in this movie.
Speaker 3: And there's so many people that are too good for
Speaker 3: the Why is Selma Hike in this?
Speaker 2: Oh God? I mean we'll get into I mean, I
Speaker 2: I at very least hope that people were well some
Speaker 2: I don't. I don't even know. I don't know, I
Speaker 2: don't know. I'm so like, oh, I don't know, Yeah,
Speaker 2: why did they? I just feel deflated?
Speaker 3: Same. Well, let's take a quick break and regroup. Yes,
Speaker 3: and then we'll come back for a recap that will
Speaker 3: just upset us again. Great, So we'll be right back.
Speaker 2: And we're back, all right. Can I just quickly read
Speaker 2: off the cast for this movie? Please? Okay? It really
Speaker 2: is all okay, seth Rogen, Michael Sarah Kristen Wick, Edward Norton,
Speaker 2: question Mark, David Crumb, Holds h betrayal, Salma Hayak, Bill Hayter.
Speaker 2: I think comes out the worst, yeah, out of the
Speaker 2: whole cast. And that's saying something. Craig Robinson, Nick Kroll,
Speaker 2: James Franco, Jonah Haill, Andrews Home, Danny McBride, how dare he?
Speaker 2: Paul Rudd, It's just come on, come on, yeah, all
Speaker 2: of you, all of you, shame on you, except for
Speaker 2: I would say Salama hyak, everyone else, shame on you. Yeah.
Speaker 3: But also her character. We'll get there, Okay.
Speaker 2: I don't know. So I don't know. I hope they
Speaker 2: paid her a lot of money. But also, oh my god,
Speaker 2: we didn't what they probably didn't. Why would you do this?
Speaker 2: How I can't imagine outside of money, you know. I
Speaker 2: just don't know. I just don't know. I was thinking
Speaker 2: about this the other day when I was watching a
Speaker 2: video of Bill nigh he O King, who describes walking
Speaker 2: around the set of Pirates of the Caribbean when he
Speaker 2: was playing Davy Jones, just saying the money, the money,
Speaker 2: the money. I was like, I hope, oh wow, oh
Speaker 2: he's the best of him.
Speaker 3: Okay, okay.
Speaker 2: Sausage party. So most of the movie.
Speaker 3: Takes place at a grocery store called Shop Wells. We
Speaker 3: meet a few hot dogs in a pack. Frank voiced
Speaker 3: by Seth Rogen.
Speaker 2: As a hot dog. He's Frank hilarious. I'm laughing already. Wait,
Speaker 2: but do the buns have tits? This is so upset
Speaker 2: gender essentialism with hot dogs, like oh oh oh, that's nasty.
Speaker 2: There's a whole spiel I have that's fucking filthy.
Speaker 3: Another hot dog is Carl voiced by Jonah Hill and
Speaker 3: Barry voiced by Michael Sarah. These hot dogs, along with
Speaker 3: all of the other food and condiments and household products
Speaker 3: in this grocery store, are sentient, and their goal is
Speaker 3: to be selected by people who the food thinks are gods.
Speaker 2: Okay, so quick energ I'm gonna try to try my
Speaker 2: best to enjoy this episode more by interjecting with hot
Speaker 2: dog facts. I love please that dogs are now sentient. Yes, no,
Speaker 2: I will say that there is not that. I think
Speaker 2: that anyone who was writing this movie was thinking a
Speaker 2: thought the entire time. Correct, But there is a weird
Speaker 2: precedent for like picturing like hot dogs specifically, but also
Speaker 2: a lot of food of just like anthropomortiizing food in
Speaker 2: a way that is like begging you to eat it
Speaker 2: in a way that's kind of nasty. And there's one
Speaker 2: particular hot dog statue that is I've seen it across
Speaker 2: the country. I want I don't know. I didn't. This
Speaker 2: was not an international project, so I can only speak
Speaker 2: to the US. If you're a listener outside of the
Speaker 2: US that has seen this hot dog statue, please let
Speaker 2: me know. It's so gross. It is a It's first
Speaker 2: of all, it's huge, It's like six feet tall, and
Speaker 2: it's it sort of is anthropomorphized in the Mickey Mouse
Speaker 2: way that that these hot dogs are. They got the
Speaker 2: white gloves, they got the little legs, whatever, you gotta
Speaker 2: make them look like something. And I feel like the
Speaker 2: Mickey Mouse method is most common. But this hot dog
Speaker 2: is slouching over. He's holding I say he because it
Speaker 2: seems like that's what again, the gender is antalism of
Speaker 2: hot dogs.
Speaker 3: People love to gender hot dogs as men and more specifically.
Speaker 2: Horny man heenuses, okay, whatever, but the hot dog is
Speaker 2: louched over. He's also got teeth hat that yeah, I mean,
Speaker 2: so does Frank. And you're like, well, it like you
Speaker 2: could have a whole thing that There's this amazing video
Speaker 2: from this YouTuber named Mike's Mike where he breaks down
Speaker 2: everything about the movie Cars that is like body horror,
Speaker 2: and you could have a very similar video about this.
Speaker 2: But the hot talk statues holding ketch him in one hand,
Speaker 2: mustard and another squeezing it all over on himself and
Speaker 2: licking his teeth like he's dressing himself to be eaten
Speaker 2: by you. But he also looks like he's kind of
Speaker 2: in pain. Oh No, it's disgusting and it's so big.
Speaker 2: And then I looked it up online. It costs like
Speaker 2: twelve hundred dollars. I'm like, why would you buy this?
Speaker 2: Why would this be in your house? So this is
Speaker 2: they wanted to put that on the cover of my
Speaker 2: book and I was like, you can't. You can't do that.
Speaker 2: You can't do that. I'm gonna send you a picture please.
Speaker 2: It's so nasty.
Speaker 3: So this is like just a piece of like decorative
Speaker 3: art question mark that you can buy and have in
Speaker 3: your house.
Speaker 2: No, so it's used mostly. I mean I guess you could,
Speaker 2: but it's used mostly in hot dog restaurants. Oh, I see,
Speaker 2: but true. I mean, this thing is being sold for
Speaker 2: two thousand dollars on eBay and it's disgusting. It's so gross.
Speaker 2: And then in Chicago, what is more common practice is
Speaker 2: they will break off the arm holding the ketchup bottle.
Speaker 3: Oh, because Chicago hot dogs are all about mustard.
Speaker 2: They're all no there, it's well, they're they they're all
Speaker 2: about a lot of things, but they're more about like,
Speaker 2: no ketchup. I see Okay, are you seeing this? Oh
Speaker 2: my god, it's it's thank you.
Speaker 3: It's even worse than I was picturing in my head.
Speaker 3: The face is really troubling.
Speaker 2: It's perverse. Also, he's like wearing sneakers and socks and
Speaker 2: has teeth, and I'm just like, this is too far.
Speaker 3: Wait, I'm just the one I'm seeing. He's like licking
Speaker 3: his lips. Yes, so it has a tongue.
Speaker 2: Yes, I've seen variants that have teeth. There's a few
Speaker 2: different variants on this. But and then there's also one
Speaker 2: that's wrapped in an American flag, because this is so
Speaker 2: you know, the hot dog is so tied into American jingoism,
Speaker 2: even though it's not an American dish. It's fucking Greek
Speaker 2: and Polish. But whatever, al right, sorry, sausage party.
Speaker 3: So yeah, we meet all these hot dogs. Also, these
Speaker 3: hot dogs are not being refrigerated. They're just on a
Speaker 3: regular ass shelf, nasty next to buns.
Speaker 2: I would rather they refrigerate the buns.
Speaker 3: That's fine, Yeah, right, you can do that, you can. Yeah,
Speaker 3: they last longer probably, but yeah, no, there's just like
Speaker 3: room temperature hot dogs and we're supposed to be rooting
Speaker 3: for them. Yeah right, Okay, So the whole thing is
Speaker 3: that all the food revers humans as gods and they
Speaker 3: want to be taken out of the store to the
Speaker 3: quote unquote Great Beyond. Because the food does not know
Speaker 3: that its purpose is to be eaten. They think that
Speaker 3: they're going to be taken out of the store and
Speaker 3: it's going to be this wonderful paradise because the movie
Speaker 3: is an allegory for religion, and the food believes this
Speaker 3: dogma about the Great Beyond basically being heaven all this stuff.
Speaker 2: Yes, this is like the beginning of this movie's attempt
Speaker 2: to make comment on faith, right, I feel was not
Speaker 2: very well done, but you can tell they're attempting it, yes, right, Yeah, So.
Speaker 3: The main thing with the hot dogs, who again are
Speaker 3: coded as men, and we'll talk all about the coding
Speaker 3: and the gender essentralism of all of this, but the
Speaker 3: hot dogs who are men are excited. The main thing
Speaker 3: that they're excited about is that they will be put
Speaker 3: inside the hot dog buns who are coded as women.
Speaker 2: And also coded as sentient vaginas. Right, and well, here's
Speaker 2: what happens is that the here's the thing for me,
Speaker 2: this is complicated stuff.
Speaker 3: The hot dogs being put inside hot dog buns is
Speaker 3: this very nuanced, subtle metaphor for heterosex. You probably didn't
Speaker 3: know that until I explained it, because it's just so
Speaker 3: subtle or.
Speaker 4: Really subtle, and it's like, let's yeah, let's it's it's
Speaker 4: really a hetero. And it's also very uh, everything in
Speaker 4: this on this shelf is uh sis hetero. I'm like, correct,
Speaker 4: they're fucking hot dogs.
Speaker 2: Stop it, stop it? What? Uh yeah? The SCENTI and
Speaker 2: I will say that the design, I mean whatever, animation wise,
Speaker 2: the character design of the hot dogs. I'm not super upset.
Speaker 2: I don't love to see teeth inside of a hot dog,
Speaker 2: but I guess it's scarier if there's no teeth, if
Speaker 2: we're anthrop whatever. The buns, Oh no, inexcusable, bad, bad, bad,
Speaker 2: They're all because I feel like there's all these jokes
Speaker 2: that have ablest coding to them of like a smooshed bun,
Speaker 2: or like a hot dog that isn't like the correct
Speaker 2: quote unquote shape or size or whatever, which is not
Speaker 2: just ablest coded, very very clearly. It's also like, but
Speaker 2: the regular buns don't look like hot dog buns because
Speaker 2: regular hot dog buns don't have todays and a big
Speaker 2: old butt like we talk, and like hot dog bus
Speaker 2: are not like famously curvy, like what are you talking about? More?
Speaker 2: And I hate the sideways. Oh they don't have that's
Speaker 2: so okay. Why does seth Rogen hot dog have teeth?
Speaker 2: Christm wigbun no teeth, Sideway's mouth, no teeth.
Speaker 3: The character design in this movie is just I hate it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but the vagina buns I have, really I have,
Speaker 2: it's so hard to look at. Yeah, so, and you're
Speaker 2: just like, but vaginas are literally beautiful, Wow, why would
Speaker 2: you do that? And also it's like I don't like
Speaker 2: it's just all like the fact that I mean, we've
Speaker 2: talked about this in animation before, where anything remotely woman coded,
Speaker 2: and like we've been talking about this since the Ghostbusters
Speaker 2: episode where it's like male coded animated characters can look
Speaker 2: like anything. Women have to have a fucking huge like iftimes,
Speaker 2: like distinct boobs and butt, which is obviously like not
Speaker 2: knocking anyone who has boobs and butt? Like, whatever, how
Speaker 2: dare you so? I have boobs and butt? What do
Speaker 2: you say? I have a butt? I technically have boobs.
Speaker 2: It's fine, Like it's fine, it's body. But like, you know,
Speaker 2: we can't look like anything.
Speaker 3: Right, we It's it's a very specific like western beauty
Speaker 3: standards body shape and size that is ascribed to female
Speaker 3: characters in animation.
Speaker 2: But Kaitlyn, why why for.
Speaker 3: A hot dog bun?
Speaker 2: The hot dog is, well, the hot dog, but even
Speaker 2: by this movie's logic, the hot dog is clearly supposed
Speaker 2: to be penis coated. Right, it's a sentient thick and
Speaker 2: it's horny, because that's how we essentialize male sexuality. Right.
Speaker 2: The bun is vagina, But vaginas don't have boobs. It's
Speaker 2: kind of if that would mean you're so sick if
Speaker 2: that was happening. I just don't know, Like I just don't, like, yeah,
Speaker 2: vaginas don't have butt.
Speaker 3: They don't have an ass, they don't they don't have titties.
Speaker 2: Not to be a woman in stem but they don't.
Speaker 2: But it's like it's so perverse to me that like
Speaker 2: even just making the character a sentient vagina was not horny. Enough,
Speaker 2: they also had to give the vagina. Yeah, boobs and
Speaker 2: a butt. It doesn't make sense and it looks horrible.
Speaker 3: It looks like shit.
Speaker 2: It's so cross not knocking the animators. I'm sure that
Speaker 2: the creatives insisted on this.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the animators aren't designing the characters. No, So whoever
Speaker 3: was responsible for character design really needs to.
Speaker 2: Really, I this movie is like truly chaotic evil on
Speaker 2: every level, and these things are sort of like occurring
Speaker 2: to me as we go, like, Wow, they really put
Speaker 2: boobs and a butt on a vagina. Yes, that is correct.
Speaker 2: We're never gonna be any free. This is just like
Speaker 2: a nightmare. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 3: So the main bun character who we meet and follow
Speaker 3: throughout the movie is Brenda voiced by Kristin Wig. She
Speaker 3: is Frank's girlfriend love Kristin Wig same and the following
Speaker 3: day is the fourth of July, which means that it's
Speaker 3: pretty likely that the hot dogs and buns will be
Speaker 3: taken out of the store to the Great Beyond and
Speaker 3: Frank Brenda will finally get to have sex. Yeah, sure enough,
Speaker 3: Frank's pack of hot dogs and Brenda's pack of buns
Speaker 3: are selected from the shelf and put into a cart
Speaker 3: by one of the quote unquote gods aka a woman.
Speaker 2: But before this happens, they have some sort of sexual contact.
Speaker 2: They have touched tips, yeah, which is later used. And
Speaker 2: I saw reviews at this movie that were like, this
Speaker 2: is the commentary on Christian values, and you're like, shut up,
Speaker 2: they're like that they touch tips, They touch fingertips, right,
Speaker 2: but it's like a sexually coated like yeah, whatever, touch
Speaker 2: tips fine, which is then used for the rest when
Speaker 2: things go wrong in the movie. As time goes on,
Speaker 2: Brenda thinks that this is because she had any sort
Speaker 2: of pre marital or like pre whatever.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: She thinks she's being punished by the gods for having
Speaker 3: pre marital sexual contact with Frank.
Speaker 2: Which I guess you could argue comes around in the end,
Speaker 2: but not in a very satisfying way. And it and
Speaker 2: also just like the way that they're and again I
Speaker 2: know that this was argued as commentary, but it just
Speaker 2: it didn't argue with me. Were at the beginning, the
Speaker 2: hot dogs are just like, we want to fucking fucking fuck,
Speaker 2: and then the bun ladies are like, we want to
Speaker 2: be loved.
Speaker 3: Me and we went to I wrote it down, it's
Speaker 3: we went to love and hug and feel and share
Speaker 3: me via because women be having emotions and men only
Speaker 3: want to have sex.
Speaker 2: Ha ha ha. I mean I want to love and
Speaker 2: feel and share too, but people of all genders want
Speaker 2: to love and feel in chair and also people, what
Speaker 2: the fuck? This movie is so essential as it's so boring.
Speaker 2: I hate it.
Speaker 3: It sucks.
Speaker 2: Sorry.
Speaker 3: Okay, So Frank and Brenda have been put in a cart. Yeah,
Speaker 3: but there's this jar of honey mustard that had been
Speaker 3: purchased by mistake and gets returned to the store. So
Speaker 3: he went out into the quote unquote Great Beyond or
Speaker 3: the like unknown area beyond the store, write how could you?
Speaker 3: And then the honey mustard ends up in this woman's
Speaker 3: cart with Frank and Brenda, and the honey mustard tells
Speaker 3: everyone what he has discovered about what actually happens in
Speaker 3: the Great Beyond. It is a hellscape where food is eaten.
Speaker 3: So chaos ensues upon hearing this news, and a bunch
Speaker 3: of food goes flying out of the cart, including Frank
Speaker 3: and Brenda because they've gotten loose from their packaging. The
Speaker 3: store closes shortly thereafter, and Frank and Brenda, who are
Speaker 3: now just sort of like loose in the store. They
Speaker 3: set off to find other packages that they can sneak
Speaker 3: into in the hopes that they will still be chosen
Speaker 3: and taken to the great beyond, although Frank is now
Speaker 3: skeptical and once more information because what if the honey
Speaker 3: mustard was right and.
Speaker 2: The honey mustard tells him to go see a bottle
Speaker 2: of firewater? Yes? And also we haven't brought up because
Speaker 2: I don't know why this is like truly writing wise,
Speaker 2: even if we're just looking at this as writers, I
Speaker 2: don't know why the character of Douche, that's right, Oh,
Speaker 2: the big bat of this movie is called Douche. I
Speaker 2: don't know why there's like randomly a villain, Like it's
Speaker 2: not even necessary to the shitty story that's being told
Speaker 2: for there to be this villain, right, Like the crisis
Speaker 2: of faith in the Quest is enough. You don't need. Yeah,
Speaker 2: the villain of the movie's named Douche.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, and you're never gonna he's about to come.
Speaker 2: Up, which I'm like, do they even sell those at
Speaker 2: the grocery store? I don't know.
Speaker 3: But also it's such a clear indication that this movie
Speaker 3: was written by men, and all the major creative makers
Speaker 3: of this movie were men. Because like, and not to
Speaker 3: make sweeping generalizations here, but I have never known a
Speaker 3: person who has a vagina to ever use a douche
Speaker 3: in my entire life. And maybe that's just something that
Speaker 3: people tend to keep private, but also like me and
Speaker 3: my friends talk about this stuff all the time, and
Speaker 3: like you learn at an early age if you have
Speaker 3: a vagina that.
Speaker 2: Douching is not good for you.
Speaker 3: It's like it cause yeast infections, and like my mom, yeah,
Speaker 3: like that's something you learn early on and it's like
Speaker 3: advised that you don't do it. And so no one
Speaker 3: I know with a vagina has ever used so a douche.
Speaker 3: But the guys who wrote this movie were like, oh,
Speaker 3: what's a product that a woman would buy?
Speaker 2: A douche? I have. Unfortunately, I do have some information
Speaker 2: on this from what is health dot Gov about dushing,
Speaker 2: So douching is not necessarily uncommon. I will agree with you.
Speaker 2: I have no I've ever known. I've never I mean
Speaker 2: I've never used one, and I don't know anyone who
Speaker 2: has because my mom told me when I was young
Speaker 2: that it is like you're saying, like, Okay, here's some
Speaker 2: information on douching. Yes, so everyone knows this is from
Speaker 2: the government. Can we trust them? Duching is washing or
Speaker 2: cleaning out the vagina with water or other mixtures of fluids.
Speaker 2: In the United States, almost one in five women fifteen
Speaker 2: to forty four years old. Again, the definition of a
Speaker 2: woman being very narrow there because it's the fucking government,
Speaker 2: but almost one in five fifteen to forty four years
Speaker 2: old douche. Doctors recommend that you do not douche. Douching
Speaker 2: can lead to many health problems, including problems getting pregnant.
Speaker 2: Douching is also linked to vaginal infections and sexually transmitted infections.
Speaker 2: So and maybe it's a generational thing where it's like
Speaker 2: they just people in our generation sort of learned that
Speaker 2: it was not healthy. But again it's like seth broken
Speaker 2: is like ten years old, Like it's just it. It
Speaker 2: is like a lazy and the way that the character
Speaker 2: it's so clear why they name that, because douche is
Speaker 2: also like shorthand for an asshole, which is you know,
Speaker 2: it happens all the time where anything vaguely feminine, Like
Speaker 2: why is it like Michael Sarah says this at one
Speaker 2: point because he's in this movie where it's like, you know,
Speaker 2: if you're you're anything like feminine coded, there's like a
Speaker 2: strong meaning too. That's why I'm very pro asshole. It
Speaker 2: always works as an insult. You mean, yes, yes, it's
Speaker 2: a great equalizer.
Speaker 3: I've replaced almost everything with like asshole or shithead or
Speaker 3: something just like very.
Speaker 2: Neutral because poo poo, and that's why we're so sophisticated.
Speaker 2: But there's like Michael Sarah's Michael Sarah's character refers to
Speaker 2: himself as a pussy at one point, which is a
Speaker 2: classic example of like, you know, a vagina being weak.
Speaker 2: You're like sure, but the same with like douche equals
Speaker 2: bad because reasons. And the Nick Carl character is like
Speaker 2: a Jim bro who I think, like you know, would
Speaker 2: have this, would have douche attributed to him basically right.
Speaker 2: But it's just like, I mean, not that the rest
Speaker 2: of this movie. I thought that that was like especially
Speaker 2: not just like more lazy like whatever, but also just
Speaker 2: like weird writing because I don't think this movie even
Speaker 2: needs a villain. I don't get it right.
Speaker 3: Also, I did not even know what that was supposed
Speaker 3: to be until the douche identifies himself as a douche
Speaker 3: because I thought, like, douches aren't packaged that way. So
Speaker 3: I was like, is that like a toilet brush and
Speaker 3: it's like toilet brush container. That's what I thought it
Speaker 3: was at first, because like, I like, I don't think
Speaker 3: their package douches are packaged that way. Even it's in
Speaker 3: like a Summer's Eve box and it's discreet anyway, So
Speaker 3: I'm about, yeah, I'm about to introduce the douche character.
Speaker 3: But before that, Brenda and Frank, who again are just
Speaker 3: like loose and roaming through the store, team up with
Speaker 3: a few other items that also flew out of the cart,
Speaker 3: a levache named Kareem Abdullah Lavash voiced by David Crumholts
Speaker 3: aka Bernard the Elf from the Santa Claus.
Speaker 2: Another massive betrayal. Huge and this is again I'm like,
Speaker 2: I didn't find any information on why this choice was made.
Speaker 2: I don't know if you did. But the fact that
Speaker 2: like David Crumholt is playing a character who is definitely
Speaker 2: coded as being Middle Eastern and Muslim, which David Crumholts
Speaker 2: is not. But David Crumholt is a Jewish Man.
Speaker 3: But the Jewish character aka Sammy Bagel Junior, who is
Speaker 3: a Bagel Jewish by Edward Norton, like doing a Woody
Speaker 3: Allen impression the whole time. And if you're wondering if
Speaker 3: heinous stereotypes are employed here, oh.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's I mean it's it's truly. From what
Speaker 2: I can tell is that the hot dogs are kind
Speaker 2: of coded as Protestant Christian Christian white guys. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: the buns are presented as Christian white girls. And then
Speaker 2: everyone everyone else in the movie is I guess, with
Speaker 2: the exception of Douche, is like pretty heavily stereotyped, like
Speaker 2: a heavily stereotyped culture.
Speaker 3: Right, So yeah, basically, I mean, and we'll get to
Speaker 3: this in more detail, but the movie codes most of
Speaker 3: the food in particular ways, often ascribing a particular race, ethnicity,
Speaker 3: and or religion to several different food items. And with
Speaker 3: that comes this just a whole slew of reductive and
Speaker 3: harmful portrayals of marginalized communities. So that's what we're working with.
Speaker 2: Yes, I mean, that is most of what the movie
Speaker 2: relies on. And we again, it's like Kaylin and I
Speaker 2: discussed this before we started recording, where it's like we
Speaker 2: will make note of like where these characters appear, but
Speaker 2: I don't even like, we don't even really want to
Speaker 2: harp on how deeply offense because it's like because.
Speaker 3: To describe the ways in which the offensive things are
Speaker 3: happening is just like upsetting to do, and I don't
Speaker 3: even want to like repeat it.
Speaker 2: So it's a yeah, it's a it's a waste of air,
Speaker 2: but it is worth mentioning what is being done because
Speaker 2: this was a successful movie fairly recently. It's such a bummer.
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, So they team up with these couple other characters,
Speaker 3: and then meanwhile, a douche voiced by Nick Kroll becomes
Speaker 3: a villain because he wants revenge against Frank and Brenda
Speaker 3: for getting him thrown away and damaged after that chart disaster.
Speaker 3: So there's this random villain. Frank, Brenda and the others
Speaker 3: make their way through the store. They pass through the
Speaker 3: liquor aisle because Frank wants to talk to this Bottle
Speaker 3: of Firewater, who is an indigenous coded character voiced by
Speaker 3: Bill Hayter Yikes, who seems to know things about the
Speaker 3: Great Beyond and how it might not be all that
Speaker 3: it's cracked up to. Be Yes and Firewater tells Frank
Speaker 3: that he and a few other non perishable items in
Speaker 3: the store.
Speaker 2: Who don't worry, are also all wildly stereotyped.
Speaker 3: For sure, they invented the idea of the Great Beyond
Speaker 3: in order to keep the food happy and unaware of
Speaker 3: their impending doom. However, they note that it's been distorted
Speaker 3: along the way, but if Frank wants proof of this,
Speaker 3: he should go to the arc Aisle be on the ice. Meanwhile,
Speaker 3: Brenda and the others get tricked by a bottle of
Speaker 3: tequila who is trying to lead them to the Douche,
Speaker 3: but a hard taco shell Teresa del Taco voiced by
Speaker 3: Salma Hayek saves them. The douche is trying to like
Speaker 3: attack them, but Brenda and the others get away. Then
Speaker 3: this is this.
Speaker 2: Movie is so evil. This movie is horrid, so evil.
Speaker 2: There was a really good I thought piece in Salon
Speaker 2: by Nico Lang when this movie first came out that
Speaker 2: unpacked in particular, how infuriating it is that Salama Hiak's
Speaker 2: character is written the way she is, not only because
Speaker 2: it's I mean, because it's like racism and cultural stereotypes
Speaker 2: on top of sexism, like it's just like a two bunch,
Speaker 2: And Salmahayak has been so historically outspoken about how frustrating
Speaker 2: it is to be a Latin actor and be treated
Speaker 2: like this repeatedly. I mean, Samahaiak, a Oscar nominated actor
Speaker 2: for playing Freda that has to take parts like this,
Speaker 2: And so I just wanted to share a quick quote
Speaker 2: from Salamahayak. Yeah, because I love Samahaik and I just
Speaker 2: really she says, I had things said to me that
Speaker 2: you would not believe. A studio executive once informed Hayak
Speaker 2: that she would be a much bigger star had she
Speaker 2: been born in the United States. He allegedly told her
Speaker 2: the moment you open your mouth, you remind everyone of
Speaker 2: their maid. And there was another time. I mean, it's
Speaker 2: and she's been again. She's been very outspoken about this
Speaker 2: over the years and still has to take fucking parts
Speaker 2: like this, which I think is a systemic failure for sure.
Speaker 2: Another example she gave over the years was when she
Speaker 2: was almost in and it wasn't specific about what movie,
Speaker 2: but she was almost the lead in a sci fi
Speaker 2: film that was being directed by a white guy. But
Speaker 2: then the executive overruled her casting and forced uh the
Speaker 2: director to drop Samahayak because they said a Mexican in space.
Speaker 2: Then another movie that like isn't even good that you
Speaker 2: remember that movie grown ups, it's like an Adam Sandler movie.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I didn't see it either, but yeah, I
Speaker 3: know of it.
Speaker 2: It's very an Adam Stanley movie. But Smahaiak, I guess
Speaker 2: plays his wife in that movie, and he had to
Speaker 2: fight for her to get that part. Like it's just
Speaker 2: like she's Oscar nominated, Like it's she's unbelievably talented, Like
Speaker 2: there's no need us to tell you how Hyak is
Speaker 2: fucking awesome, but like, yeah, the way she's treated it
Speaker 2: in particular, where I'm just like this is just fucking unacceptable.
Speaker 2: And also Samahayak is a good like comedic actor too,
Speaker 2: like if they but they're just like, ah, I hate it.
Speaker 2: I hate it. And she's one of the few actors
Speaker 2: who is cast as like her own race, where there's
Speaker 2: many where.
Speaker 3: That is not the case because it's mostly white actors
Speaker 3: voicing non white coded characters.
Speaker 2: I think, with the exception of Craig Robinson and Samahayak,
Speaker 2: that is the case. Bill Hayter as Firewaters. It felt
Speaker 2: like it was pulling from like the animated Peter Pan
Speaker 2: from the nineteen fifties portrayal of Indigenous Americans for sure,
Speaker 2: voiced by a white guy.
Speaker 3: Bill Hayter also voices Tequila and Elguaco, which are Mexican
Speaker 3: coded characters.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and also coded as being predatory. Yeah. And in
Speaker 2: addition to this, is also pointed out in Nico Leang's
Speaker 2: article that we will link is casting the only Indigenous
Speaker 2: coded character as Firewater.
Speaker 3: As a bottle of liquor.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like, I think, pretty clearly mocking alcoholism and
Speaker 2: indigenous can munities, which is a topic we've discussed in
Speaker 2: other episodes. And like it's just cruel, Like it's just
Speaker 2: I it is. It truly blows my mind that any
Speaker 2: of this was argued as commentary, like that is you're
Speaker 2: just doing the thing.
Speaker 3: It's such punching down humor dialed up.
Speaker 2: In a way that is like worse than the nineteen fifties.
Speaker 2: Like what there, it's it's a lot, I mean, yeah,
Speaker 2: it just really yeah, all right, so back to the movie.
Speaker 3: We then cut to the other hot dogs who remained
Speaker 3: in the package and went home with that like Woman's Shopper,
Speaker 3: and at the woman's house, Barry watches in horror as
Speaker 3: food is peeled and chopped up and boiled and melted
Speaker 3: and eaten. Carl is sliced in half, but Barry survives
Speaker 3: and escapes. Back in the store, Brenda and the others
Speaker 3: link back up with Frank, but none of them want
Speaker 3: to go with him to the Dark Isle because they
Speaker 3: still believe in the Great Beyond, so Frank has to
Speaker 3: head to the Dark Isle alone. Back outside of the store,
Speaker 3: Burry the hot Dog manages to stow away in some
Speaker 3: dude's car. He thinks he's headed back to shop Wells,
Speaker 3: but they end up at this guy's apartment where this
Speaker 3: guy proceeds to do bath salts.
Speaker 2: I think this is the James Franco character. Yes, and
Speaker 2: also bad I mean no, not, But like this movie
Speaker 2: is already so dated where it's like, god, I don't know,
Speaker 2: like bath salts no longer really a subject of discussion, right.
Speaker 3: It really puts this movie in a particular time in history.
Speaker 2: The two outside of just being straight up offensive, the
Speaker 2: two things that felt the most dated to me were
Speaker 2: the references to bat and also like the Jim bro humor,
Speaker 2: which is I think it was just like done to
Speaker 2: death and people are fucking tired of it and know
Speaker 2: it like because that's every everything that comes out of
Speaker 2: Douche's mouth is like, don't fucking leave it, bro, And
Speaker 2: you're like, right.
Speaker 3: God know if that's just because I'm swiping left on
Speaker 3: hundreds of men who seem to fit this description on
Speaker 3: bumble and shit like that, but I feel like that
Speaker 3: caricature of a of a man is still very much
Speaker 3: a thing. It didn't that didn't even feel that dated
Speaker 3: to me, so I decay, Yeah, yeah, it's worse than
Speaker 3: we feared.
Speaker 2: Anyway.
Speaker 3: Because this dude is on bath salts, he and Barry
Speaker 3: can understand each other because the drugs enable him to
Speaker 3: like see if this fourth dimension where he can see
Speaker 3: the sentient food, And so they talk and the guy
Speaker 3: promises to return Barry to the grocery store. Back at
Speaker 3: the store, Brenda, Sammy, and Ravash finally make it to
Speaker 3: their respective ales and part ways. Meanwhile, Frank reaches the
Speaker 3: dark isle, which is full of knives and cookwar and
Speaker 3: a cookbook that shows all of these recipes for preparing food,
Speaker 3: which is proof that people eat food and that the
Speaker 3: Great Beyond is a myth. But when Frank shows this
Speaker 3: to all the other food in the store over a
Speaker 3: video monitor and loud speaker, he's like, here's the truth,
Speaker 3: and if you don't believe it, you're a fool. And
Speaker 3: the food feels insulted, and they're like, this sounds like
Speaker 3: another theory, and I choose to believe the more pleasant thing.
Speaker 3: So none of the other food gets on board with him.
Speaker 2: Right, which is another sort of like I don't know,
Speaker 2: I guess if you're listening, you feel however you wanted.
Speaker 2: But I was like, this is like sort of another
Speaker 2: like swipe that is at all religions so broadly as
Speaker 2: to mean nothing, and also in kind of a way
Speaker 2: that feels very I can't like it's still like twenty
Speaker 2: sixteen was a little too late to still be attempting this,
Speaker 2: but like suggesting like atheism is the only method, the
Speaker 2: only way to like to freedom of your mind, which
Speaker 2: just feels a little right. What's his name? Bill? Who's
Speaker 2: the guy?
Speaker 3: Hmmm?
Speaker 2: Oh my god, Bill, Bill, Bill fucking the guy on TV.
Speaker 2: I'll science guy. No, I don't. I think he's respectful
Speaker 2: of other people's religions. I hope. No, I'm thinking of Bill,
Speaker 2: not Bill NYI. And that's what comes from pole him
Speaker 2: all the time. He's on HBO Bill Maher, Bill, Oh
Speaker 2: my god, Bill Mahers, who's just like a kind of
Speaker 2: like fucking asshole who has contempt for anyone that has
Speaker 2: any sort of faith. That's not to say that faith,
Speaker 2: that religion cannot be extremely repressive, obviously we know that,
Speaker 2: but it's like it just feels like this and again
Speaker 2: just a very overly simplistic like, well, if you didn't
Speaker 2: believe in anything, maybe your life wouldn't suck so much.
Speaker 2: You're like, well that feels a little a little broad
Speaker 2: to me.
Speaker 3: Definitely, Yes, this film. It's almost as if this film
Speaker 3: lacks nuance.
Speaker 2: I know, I know. I'm just like we're wasting our time, Like, yeah,
Speaker 2: what are we even doing by Jamie's book? But ya,
Speaker 2: he's by my book. Please buy my book. It's nothing
Speaker 2: like this. Oh my god.
Speaker 3: No, there's there's lots more to discuss and the movie
Speaker 3: is almost over, so yes, Barry shows up after Frank
Speaker 3: has tried to give this speech about what everyone should
Speaker 3: believe or should not believe, and Barry's like, no, you
Speaker 3: can't tell people that they're fools. If they don't believe you,
Speaker 3: we have to do it a different way. So then
Speaker 3: they shoot all of the people in the store with
Speaker 3: toothpicks covered in bath salts. And because bath salts allow
Speaker 3: the people and food to understand each other, the.
Speaker 2: People like it's the bath salt like a metaphor for
Speaker 2: like empathy. I don't think they thought about it that hard.
Speaker 2: I don't know, you're right, you're right here.
Speaker 3: But because the people are on bath salts, they start
Speaker 3: freaking out and destroying the food, which allows the food
Speaker 3: to see how evil and vicious the humans are that
Speaker 3: they thought were gods, but they realize are actually monsters,
Speaker 3: and they realized that Frank was right. So the food
Speaker 3: fights back against the people. But this is when the
Speaker 3: douche shows back up and puts himself up a store
Speaker 3: employees butt and is like puppeting the store employee around
Speaker 3: while he's holding a gun and trying to shoot the food.
Speaker 3: But I've been so checked out by this point, as
Speaker 3: like sure, I was watching it at like two times
Speaker 3: speed by this point, and I feel like I missed
Speaker 3: some stuff because I was like, I just need this
Speaker 3: to end as quickly as possible.
Speaker 2: I watched it twice to prepare, but yeah, the second
Speaker 2: time I watched it on one point seventy five because
Speaker 2: I'm just like this. It doesn't make a difference. It's
Speaker 2: not like I'm ignoring something.
Speaker 3: There's nothing to take no anyway. Okay, So the villains
Speaker 3: are trying to kill the food, but Frank and Brenda
Speaker 3: and Barry defeat the bad guys and they save the
Speaker 3: food in the store, and then the movie ends with
Speaker 3: an orgy where all the food is having sex with
Speaker 3: each other, and then there's another final beat where the
Speaker 3: bottle of five water is like, by the way, none
Speaker 3: of us are real, We're a cartoon invented by Seth Rogan.
Speaker 3: So it tries to have this like clever meta ending,
Speaker 3: but it also falls completely flat and sucks the end.
Speaker 2: And it's also weird that the only they're like which yeah,
Speaker 2: which is like a very easy way to be like, yeah,
Speaker 2: it was about nothing, right, it was about nothing because
Speaker 2: it was like even with the ending again just like
Speaker 2: shitty writing, where like the ending being like, oh now
Speaker 2: everyone's like having this big food or a gee and
Speaker 2: it's like not the rigid hetero like but it's still
Speaker 2: like anytime there's queer sex, it's heavily commented on. And
Speaker 2: then they even make Brenda Bunson feminist icon, you know,
Speaker 2: sit next to Frank the hot Dog after and say like, well,
Speaker 2: some like basically say that the queer sexual experience is
Speaker 2: We're okay, but the best sex was with Frank the
Speaker 2: hot Dog. Like you're just playing a hot dog? Did
Speaker 2: you pick that up on that though, where like we
Speaker 2: do get it, Like again, this is a victory for
Speaker 2: nobody because again with Samaha playing a taco, that is yeah,
Speaker 2: both racist and sexist vaginas have certainly been referred to
Speaker 2: as tacos. And it's all like you don't need me
Speaker 2: to explain this to you in the world, but like,
Speaker 2: but at the end they do have. Okay, let's start there,
Speaker 2: let's start. Let's start there. Yes, let's take first and
Speaker 2: then will be right back. Please buy Raw Dog. Okay,
Speaker 2: and we're back, and we're back. Seth Rogen says Raw Dog.
Speaker 2: And I was like, this is bad press, that's blasphemy.
Speaker 2: I've we've reclaimed brad Dog, We've taken it away from him.
Speaker 2: It's not it's not for the hot Dog anymore. But
Speaker 2: let's start with the story between Brenda and what is
Speaker 2: Sama Hayek's character's.
Speaker 3: Name, Teresa, And just just to contextualize this a bit
Speaker 3: more before we dive in, which we've already mostly done,
Speaker 3: but just to make it clear that, like, the hot
Speaker 3: dogs are all coded as men and more specifically penises,
Speaker 3: because there's all these jokes and even like a whole
Speaker 3: storyline about how Bury the hot dog like feels insecure
Speaker 3: because he's not as long as the other hot dogs
Speaker 3: but he is gurthy and like all this stuff. And
Speaker 3: then the hot dog buns are coded as women slash vaginas,
Speaker 3: but again, like the vagina buns also have boobs.
Speaker 2: The point is it's very.
Speaker 3: Gender essentialist and reductive, and it's basically just saying like, and.
Speaker 2: Brenda Bunsen says, I'm so tight, and like it's just like.
Speaker 3: Right, all these like attempts at jokes of how hahaha,
Speaker 3: bond equals vagina, hot dog equals penis, which is like
Speaker 3: the easiest and most unoriginal joke in the world, And
Speaker 3: yet the whole movie hinges on this very lazy, obvious
Speaker 3: joke as if it's some brilliant bit of comedy that
Speaker 3: no one's ever thought of before and.
Speaker 2: Then on top of that, penis equals ma always man, Ye,
Speaker 2: vagina equals always went like, it's very sis normative as well,
Speaker 2: and it's right.
Speaker 3: So not only is it reducing people to their genitals
Speaker 3: in a way that means, oh, like men have dicks
Speaker 3: and because of that, they're so fucking horny and all
Speaker 3: they want to do is fuck all the time, and
Speaker 3: reduces women to vaginas, and also like they have feelings
Speaker 3: because they have vaginas, and it's very transphobic. And yeah,
Speaker 3: just like reducing people to genitals and saying that only
Speaker 3: you know, to be a man means you have this genitalia.
Speaker 3: To be a woman means you have this genitalia. There's
Speaker 3: no room for anyone on the gender or like intersex spectrum.
Speaker 3: Just like it's just so rigid and binary.
Speaker 2: And unfortunately, it's really difficult to discuss this movie without
Speaker 2: that constantly being the case. So we apologize if if
Speaker 2: we sound like we it's just really it's really hard
Speaker 2: to talk about this movie without feeling like you're aligning
Speaker 2: with that. Obviously that is not how we align, but
Speaker 2: this is just like the interior logic of the movie
Speaker 2: is so fucked and assumes so much that it's it's
Speaker 2: just like it's very difficult to have this right conversation. Yes,
Speaker 2: please buy rod Dog, but okay, so we have Teresa
Speaker 2: del Taco, Yes, okay, Del Taco is. You know, if
Speaker 2: you live in the US, you probably know an American
Speaker 2: fast food chain. American, but it's like americanized Mexican food,
Speaker 2: so already yeah lazy. But Teresa is I mean, she's
Speaker 2: a queer character who is immediately interested in Brenda, and
Speaker 2: like it's like implied that that's why Teresa helps the
Speaker 2: gang is because she has a thing for Brenda. We
Speaker 2: see a lot of very like again, you're like, what
Speaker 2: are we doing here? From Teresa's perspective, we see her
Speaker 2: constantly looking at Brenda's but like objectifying her. I feel
Speaker 2: like this movie. And then there is like a scene
Speaker 2: where again it's just like not like Brenda is I
Speaker 2: think like a queer character because she says when she
Speaker 2: and Teresa go their separate ways, like basically says like
Speaker 2: I'm interested, but but.
Speaker 3: This religion we believe in.
Speaker 2: It would be against god right to have, which I
Speaker 2: think think is like again, the attempt that this movie
Speaker 2: is making to be like religion is so oppressive. And
Speaker 2: then at the end it comes around and everyone has
Speaker 2: a big orgy and you know, Teresa and Brent dadu
Speaker 2: have sex, or it's implied that everyone kind of has
Speaker 2: sex with everyone. But I do think and like, the
Speaker 2: way that queerness is treated in this movie is obviously bad,
Speaker 2: oh for sure. Okay, well to the point where there's
Speaker 2: a broad stereotype that isn't even like current. I'm like,
Speaker 2: how old are you? People? Like, we're very but like
Speaker 2: the entire fruit section of the grocery store is queer
Speaker 2: coded and mostly queer coded as men, yeah, gay men
Speaker 2: and yeah. So just again, because this movie is so
Speaker 2: gender essentialist, there is no real in between in terms
Speaker 2: of the gender spectrum, and we see queer men even
Speaker 2: though it's I feel like this was a time where
Speaker 2: it was like, well, any representation, you should be thrilled
Speaker 2: that we included this. I'm acknowledging, can you exist?
Speaker 3: And that's good enough.
Speaker 2: Where there's already I mean, it's so unshocking that they
Speaker 2: were working on this movie since two thousand and eight,
Speaker 2: because this feels more twenty eight than twenty sixteen, for sure,
Speaker 2: but that was when it was released, so you know,
Speaker 2: fuck you, but the like there's a fair amount of
Speaker 2: no homoing oh between hot dogs so much. But then
Speaker 2: when there are queer men, they're treated differently from queer women,
Speaker 2: which I know, again is essentialist, but it's something we've
Speaker 2: talked about before, where when they're queer women, it's very
Speaker 2: like ooh, this is sexy, this is leering, this is
Speaker 2: blah blah blah, and then when it's queer men, it's
Speaker 2: like funny and like it's I don't even I don't
Speaker 2: even really know what word to describe how because at
Speaker 2: the end, Sammy Bagel Junior and Kareem Abdul Levache hilarious
Speaker 2: by the way, I have sex, the Bagel says he
Speaker 2: has a boner. I'm like, well, I understand why you
Speaker 2: haven't attempted to show it, because what does that even mean?
Speaker 2: What does that mean? What that look like? Yeah, doesn't
Speaker 2: make sense, but those characters are so offensive and like, okay,
Speaker 2: so anyways, I thought it was interesting that Brenda and
Speaker 2: Teresa are like acknowledged to be queer by the plot,
Speaker 2: but like it's just so everything is so halfway because
Speaker 2: even like their interest in each other is still treated
Speaker 2: in a clearly written by straight men perspective.
Speaker 3: Lazy, yeah, mostly played as a joke, nothing interesting or
Speaker 3: meaningful being done with it. Yeah, so yeah, which is
Speaker 3: also what happens with uh. And again we touched on this,
Speaker 3: and it's not worth going into the details the specific
Speaker 3: examples because they're so upsetting, but just the racism, xenophobia,
Speaker 3: anti Islam, anti Semitic also like and it's so.
Speaker 2: Well that and yeah, that's that's the one. We talked
Speaker 2: about this a little bit as well, where that's I
Speaker 2: think the one. I'm curious what are our Jewish listeners think,
Speaker 2: but they're like, that feels like the only the only
Speaker 2: subject on which this group of writers has any leeway
Speaker 2: on because the story and the original like concept of
Speaker 2: this movie is by Seth Rogen, Evan Goldberg, and Jonah Hill,
Speaker 2: who are all Jewish writers. And you know, I still
Speaker 2: think this movie sucks no matter what, but I do
Speaker 2: want to acknowledge that there is a pretty well storied
Speaker 2: history of Jewish writers poking at tropes surrounding Jewish characters
Speaker 2: and also surrounding Nazism, which this movie also does. There
Speaker 2: is president for that. It's obviously done way better by
Speaker 2: artists like mel Brooks and like, I but I that's
Speaker 2: the only where I I don't know where to land
Speaker 2: on that because I'm not Jewish and I don't want to.
Speaker 3: I mean, we talked about this on the Borat episode
Speaker 3: as well. Yes, yes, on the is that a Matreon episode? Gosh,
Speaker 3: I've lost all track of what is where?
Speaker 2: Yes, I think that it was when we covered Borat
Speaker 2: on the Matreon where it is like we did that.
Speaker 2: I can't I mean feminist masterpiece, it was said. But
Speaker 2: in any case, I, uh, yeah, I don't want to,
Speaker 2: you know, come down on the side of like Jewish
Speaker 2: writers cannot make any commentary on Jewish history in the
Speaker 2: form of a comedy. There's plenty of it. I just
Speaker 2: personally don't think anything is well done in this movie, right,
Speaker 2: But that's the one thing that I'm like, well, I
Speaker 2: don't really feel qualified to have a take on on that.
Speaker 2: I feel the same, however, we would be curious to
Speaker 2: know what our Jewish listeners think. I mean, it's just like,
Speaker 2: I just can't believe anyone liked this movie. It's so
Speaker 2: confusing to me. I wanted to quote a Lindy West
Speaker 2: piece that's also mentioned in this Nico Lang piece. You
Speaker 2: gotta love Lindy West. She said this back in twenty twelve,
Speaker 2: where basically in the press tour for this movie, as
Speaker 2: we've alluded to, the writers would say like, oh, this
Speaker 2: is equal opportunity, like offensiveness, Like we know that it's
Speaker 2: broad stereotypes, like, but it's with everyone. I think that
Speaker 2: that and that's sort of where they're poking at Jewish
Speaker 2: stereotypes come in, where they're like, we're doing it to ourselves.
Speaker 2: Too cool if we do it to everybody. So that
Speaker 2: is sort of the acknowledged ethos of how this movie
Speaker 2: was put together. It's like we're not exempt, so you're
Speaker 2: not exempt. So this is from a Lindy West essay
Speaker 2: for Jezebel in twenty twelve. She says, quote, the problem
Speaker 2: is that all people are not equal in positions of power,
Speaker 2: which is true because it's like these guys are making
Speaker 2: the movie like they're There is is one listed producer
Speaker 2: who is a woman, Megan Allison, who is, if I
Speaker 2: were to guess what, is probably involved mostly in the
Speaker 2: in the animated portion because she works at Annapurna where
Speaker 2: the animation took place, which we'll get to in a second.
Speaker 2: It doesn't seem like there were any women that had
Speaker 2: any say in you know, how this was made. Nor
Speaker 2: were there any Muslim writers, nor were there any Mexican writers,
Speaker 2: nor were their indigenous writers, nor were their black writers,
Speaker 2: and on and on and on and on and on.
Speaker 2: It was just these guys. So that logic does not
Speaker 2: it doesn't hold.
Speaker 3: Up, does it doesn't work work? And and if they
Speaker 3: were actually like poking fun at everyone, because these these
Speaker 3: filmmakers are only poking fun at already marginalized people and
Speaker 3: not like commenting on fucking billionaires and racists and like
Speaker 3: people who should actually be which which is like criticized
Speaker 3: for their behavior, and.
Speaker 2: Not that that's the duty of any like of all movies.
Speaker 2: You can have movies that are not like you know,
Speaker 2: explicitly anti capitalist and all this stuff. And this movie
Speaker 2: is trying to say something about religion, but it's just yeah,
Speaker 2: like as far as the stereotypes are deployed, it seems
Speaker 2: like just for shock value, Like definitely it has nothing
Speaker 2: to really do with the larger plot, which is like
Speaker 2: basically incoherent to me. It's just like it's mean, and
Speaker 2: it's lazy, and it's and it's it's a bit evil, definitely,
Speaker 2: and I read god, I read, I read an example again,
Speaker 2: read an example that so Evan Goldberg and seth Rogen
Speaker 2: also said that they consulted friends to make sure their
Speaker 2: equal opportunity offensiveness wasn't just plain offensive. Carmichael, who is
Speaker 2: not in this movie, but he's in neighbors another seth
Speaker 2: Rogen joint of this area, Drod Carmichael, told BuzzFeed that
Speaker 2: Goldberg would come to him to vet the movies more
Speaker 2: problematic content. Is this racist? Goldberg inquired on more than
Speaker 2: one occasion, and then Nico Lang says, in an industry
Speaker 2: where people of color continued to be stereotyped and shut out,
Speaker 2: it seems that if Goldberg had to ask, he already
Speaker 2: knew the answer, which I think is an excellent point
Speaker 2: and it probably very true. I don't even want to
Speaker 2: say what it was going to be. But the Craig
Speaker 2: Robinson character, who is called mister Grits, which Jesus Christ,
Speaker 2: was originally going to be even more offensive. And the
Speaker 2: original version of the Craig Robinson character, which was just
Speaker 2: explicitly anti black like, tested very very poorly, and there
Speaker 2: was at the movie's original premiere someone I guess confronted
Speaker 2: Zeth Rogan about it and was like, you can't fucking
Speaker 2: do this, dude, Like this is disgusting. But that's the
Speaker 2: only change that I saw an example of being changed.
Speaker 2: Everything else stayed as is, which again it's like what
Speaker 2: if someone hadn't said something, and it's.
Speaker 3: Like and and that would just be out in the world.
Speaker 2: I mean, not that what is out, not that mystery,
Speaker 2: but Ris is doing anything, Like.
Speaker 3: It's just mean Levache, Like all of the every character
Speaker 3: fucking fire every I mean, it's like, there's no there's
Speaker 3: no like except for this character, which makes a ton
Speaker 3: of sense, Like no, no, pinous because you brought up
Speaker 3: Lyndy West, who is an activist against fat shaming and
Speaker 3: fat phobia.
Speaker 2: And so just famously one of my favorite writers.
Speaker 3: Oh she's terrific. It just reminded me of how much
Speaker 3: fat shaming there is in this movie, where like the
Speaker 3: other food characters are fat shaming. Brenda the Bun another
Speaker 3: character I forget who it is, but says that people
Speaker 3: like humans are to blame for getting fat because of
Speaker 3: all the all the food they consume. Just like all
Speaker 3: this like horrible fat phobic rhetoric.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just bullshit like everything, like basically every word
Speaker 2: and this movie is bullshit and all and also like
Speaker 2: it upholds obviously, it upholds all of like all of everything,
Speaker 2: but even in a way that like I don't understand
Speaker 2: because it's it's like, this is a movie written by
Speaker 2: Jewish writers who are going with their ethos of what
Speaker 2: they say they're doing. We're not exempt either, but the
Speaker 2: main character seems like he's coded as like a white Christian,
Speaker 2: so it's like, right, so it seems like, oh, well,
Speaker 2: the white Christian hero fucking cis hot dog guy is
Speaker 2: still the most curious of everyone and like finds the
Speaker 2: truth and unites every culture. And it's like that's like,
Speaker 2: what is what are you doing? That's all movies like,
Speaker 2: that's like fucking I I I don't, I don't know,
Speaker 2: I like it. Obviously this movie makes no sense.
Speaker 3: Uh. Well, to piggyback on that, there's there's classic sexism
Speaker 3: happening with that too, because again, Frank is this character
Speaker 3: who's like, wait a minute, I'm a skeptic. Now I
Speaker 3: have to seek the truth, you literally, Bill Maher. Yeah,
Speaker 3: he sets out to make the documentary religulous, you know,
Speaker 3: and he's like, what's going on? But Brenda, his girlfriend,
Speaker 3: refuses to listen to Frank about the possibility that the
Speaker 3: great Beyond might not be real. And yes, he is
Speaker 3: being very condescending and patronizing while he talks about it.
Speaker 3: But one of the few female characters in the movie
Speaker 3: is presented as being irrational and overly driven by her emotions.
Speaker 3: And again, he's interested in seeking the truth. She's just like,
Speaker 3: I'm gonna, you know, blindly follow what I already believe.
Speaker 3: I'm not going to interrogate anything. And then she tries
Speaker 3: to like make him jealous. When he's like, well, I
Speaker 3: can't even have a rational conversation with you, She's like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 3: well I'm gonna go fuck a pickle.
Speaker 2: And it's just like, well, it's like also that there.
Speaker 2: This is like because they're like still in their package
Speaker 2: that's supposed to be this really like sophisticated metaphor for
Speaker 2: Virginia purity, but it's still more like so but you know,
Speaker 2: by the hot dog, but blah blah blah, like it's
Speaker 2: still more emphasized in the female coded uh, Like it's
Speaker 2: more important that the buns are never been used than
Speaker 2: the hot dogs. Which is ridiculous.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it is gross. Also there's all this like
Speaker 3: male gaze ye animation slash cinematography again, Oh my god.
Speaker 2: The shot where dude's just talking about like I can't
Speaker 2: wait to get inside this woman. Guarantee, these writers do
Speaker 2: not know how any of this would actually go. But
Speaker 2: there's this like leering shot of like a cartoon while vagina,
Speaker 2: and you're like, why, yeah, why why why why we
Speaker 2: already have like oh, in case the vagina buns that
Speaker 2: also have boobs and butts weren't enough for you, like
Speaker 2: got you, got you? Yeah?
Speaker 3: Yeah, So that's gross. Uh. I want to talk about
Speaker 3: the production and animation, Yes, specifically the way that animators
Speaker 3: were treated on this movie. I'm pulling from a couple
Speaker 3: of different sources. One is a Washington Post piece, one
Speaker 3: is a screen Rent piece. So there was this Q
Speaker 3: and a published on an animation news website called.
Speaker 2: Cartoon Brew cartoon ber Rocks.
Speaker 3: And so there's a Q and a with the two
Speaker 3: directors of this movie, Greg Tiernan and Conrad Vernon, And
Speaker 3: the comments section of this Q and a basically turned
Speaker 3: in who the animators commenting anonymously complaining about the working
Speaker 3: conditions on the movie, and so like that's kind of
Speaker 3: how this information came to be a public information. So
Speaker 3: the animators complained about director Greg Tiernan, who runs the
Speaker 3: animation company Nitrogen, who handled the animation for Sausage Party.
Speaker 3: He runs it with his wife Nicole Stin.
Speaker 2: Also, unfortunately, we do have to claim that Sausage Party
Speaker 2: is Shrekian in that Conrad Vernon, one of the co
Speaker 2: directors on feminist masterpiece Shrek two.
Speaker 3: Wow, Yeah, really quite Shrekian.
Speaker 2: Sorry to interrupt your very important discussion of labor rights,
Speaker 2: but no, it's it's It's.
Speaker 3: Also true it's important to know when a show.
Speaker 2: When Shrek's when Shreks go wrong. Okay, but this is
Speaker 2: a very fascinating thing that has can I feel like
Speaker 2: it's a more popular discussion now, this seems like a
Speaker 2: more early example of it.
Speaker 3: Yes, So the animators were complaining that mister Greg would
Speaker 3: have enraged outbursts. There was a lot of micromanagement of
Speaker 3: the animators and most despicably, a lot of labor that
Speaker 3: went unpaid because animators were forced to work overtime and
Speaker 3: would not be paid for it. Yes, I'll quote an
Speaker 3: excerpt from the Washington post piece. The production costs were
Speaker 3: kept low because Greg would demand people work overtime for free.
Speaker 3: If you wouldn't work late for free, your work would
Speaker 3: be assigned to someone who would stay late or come
Speaker 3: in on the weekend. Some artists were even threatened with
Speaker 3: termination and for not staying late to hit a deadline.
Speaker 3: So basically, animators, if they wanted to keep their job,
Speaker 3: were forced to work over time for free. If they refused,
Speaker 3: they would potentially be fired. Many animators who worked on
Speaker 3: the movie were not credited as having worked on the
Speaker 3: movie because many of them quit because of the horrible
Speaker 3: working conditions before the movie was finished, and anyone who
Speaker 3: quit was not credited even though they worked on the
Speaker 3: movie for like over a year. Also, when animators tried
Speaker 3: to quit and like put in their notice, executives at
Speaker 3: Nitrogen would threaten to damage their reputations, which like is
Speaker 3: a pretty big deal because like getting blacklisted in this
Speaker 3: industry is a real concern. Like if you get blacklisted,
Speaker 3: like it is really hard to.
Speaker 2: Fuck your career and they know that permanently.
Speaker 3: Yes, Like yeah, So the animators were just like treated
Speaker 3: horribly and because the animation was happening in Vancouver, and
Speaker 3: Nitrogen is a Vancouver based company, which is like outside
Speaker 3: of the jurisdiction and protections of the Animation Guild in
Speaker 3: the US, they like weren't protected. I did read that. Eventually,
Speaker 3: when Annapurna, which was like the production company that financed
Speaker 3: the movie, learned about all of this like labor mistreatment,
Speaker 3: they stepped in. They made sure the animators were paid
Speaker 3: for their overtime, and they were like they made sure
Speaker 3: that the animators were being fed because a lot of
Speaker 3: them had to work these late hours in an area
Speaker 3: that was like difficult to get food, and so they
Speaker 3: like unless they brought their own food, they would have
Speaker 3: to work with like.
Speaker 2: No access to food.
Speaker 3: And like it's pretty standard for like especially on like
Speaker 3: film sets, for the production of the movie, to feed
Speaker 3: the cast and crew. Like it's not people's responsibility who
Speaker 3: work on a on a production to feed themselves.
Speaker 2: So this is so, like, this is I've I'm very i'mried.
Speaker 2: I don't because you said you remember hearing about this
Speaker 2: time at the time. I didn't know about this at
Speaker 2: the time, just because I love I mean, I work
Speaker 2: in animation. I love animation, and this is so this
Speaker 2: is like so I mean labor disputes are typical across entertainment,
Speaker 2: across everywhere, but like in animation specifically, it is like
Speaker 2: improved so little over the years that I'm glad that
Speaker 2: there was a settlement, but I'm also like, there's no
Speaker 2: excuse for someone as powerful as this group of filmmakers
Speaker 2: to accept making this a non union project like that
Speaker 2: is absolutely unacceptable. You can't treat your workers that way,
Speaker 2: and the reason you do is to save money and
Speaker 2: to mistreat them because like you're saying, like this, this happens, this,
Speaker 2: this has happened on animation shows that I've worked on,
Speaker 2: and I've only ever worked as a writer. But even so,
Speaker 2: it's like there's just still such an issue with how
Speaker 2: animation is treated within entertainment. Not that there aren't major
Speaker 2: labor issues in live action as well, but the unions
Speaker 2: in live action tend to be a little stronger where
Speaker 2: you have SAG that represents uh animation performers as well,
Speaker 2: but not as often the WGA, who are it seems
Speaker 2: about to strike and I'm very thrilled, but the WGA
Speaker 2: still doesn't recognize most animation writers as writers that deserve
Speaker 2: union protections, like ridiculous it blows. Like I love to
Speaker 2: fucking run my mouth about this, but I've worked on
Speaker 2: six television shows, but I'm not in the WGA because
Speaker 2: I write in animation. It's ridiculous and like some are
Speaker 2: fucking high budget, Like why does writing on Star Trek
Speaker 2: not qualify you for the WGA. It's fucking ridiculous, and
Speaker 2: it's there is very in animators, especially, I mean this
Speaker 2: goes back to like Walt Disney union busting animators, like
Speaker 2: during the production of like Pinocchio, Like this has been
Speaker 2: going back.
Speaker 3: This has been going on in animation forever, getting back
Speaker 3: to the Pinocchio Wars.
Speaker 2: Sorry, oh my god, I still have PTSD from the
Speaker 2: Pinocchio Wars. But like there there's you know, animators have
Speaker 2: had to repeatedly strike and still have I would say,
Speaker 2: generally less protections than their live action counterparts, which is ridiculous,
Speaker 2: especially because animation has grown only more popular and more
Speaker 2: widely like every audience. It's it's like it was like, oh,
Speaker 2: you make Kitty TV, like you don't do it, which
Speaker 2: is also ridiculous. But now it's like there's animation across
Speaker 2: the board. There's no reason that they shouldn't be treated equally.
Speaker 2: It pisses me off, and I'm glad that they got
Speaker 2: a settlement, but it's just like it's so transparent where
Speaker 2: and this we like sort of talked about this a
Speaker 2: little earlier, but how I think that like a similar
Speaker 2: dispute that you see right now is going on with
Speaker 2: the effects workers who work on Marvel movies, where there's
Speaker 2: only so many production houses that do this. They're desperate
Speaker 2: to stay in the good favor of Disney and Marvel.
Speaker 2: It's always fucking Disney with this stuff. They want to
Speaker 2: stay in the good graces of these huge contracts, and
Speaker 2: so they'll work people to death and then like there
Speaker 2: this was an issue with a director I generally like,
Speaker 2: but Taiko yit when the last I didn't see it.
Speaker 2: When his last Marvel movie came out, he was like
Speaker 2: making fun of how the effects looked in interviews, which
Speaker 2: prompted employees to be like, you didn't like, Marvel did
Speaker 2: not give us the money or the time to finish
Speaker 2: this fucking movie. How dare you like? It's ridiculous? He
Speaker 2: sucked thor Love and Thunder was like, I didn't see it.
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess it's like I was like Oh, well,
Speaker 2: you can't always trust rotten tomatoes. But I did trust
Speaker 2: Rotten Tomatoes on that one. Then I didn't see it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but yeah, it's just animation and effects. Workers are historically
Speaker 2: treated like shit, and it's so like there's no there's
Speaker 2: no excuse for anyone to do it, but particularly people
Speaker 2: who are this powerful and have have access to the resources.
Speaker 2: It's not like we're an indie company and like we
Speaker 2: can only give you this much, which isn't acceptable either,
Speaker 2: but at least there's some context for it. There's no
Speaker 2: reason that this that a production of this level needed
Speaker 2: to mistreat their workers so much, and that sucks because
Speaker 2: then everyone had to work on sausage party like Okay, Well,
Speaker 2: if you want to read more about labor rights in
Speaker 2: the meat packing industry and also then you should pick
Speaker 2: up a new book. It's out now. It's called Raw Dog.
Speaker 2: I learned a lot about how meat packing employees as
Speaker 2: well as animals are soverely mistreated in the process. Where
Speaker 2: most grocery store hot dogs like frank are made. Also
Speaker 2: do some discussion of vegan hot dogs of kosher hot dogs.
Speaker 2: They're so the world of hot dogs is expansive. It's fast, fast,
Speaker 2: and vast and much, you might even say, and much
Speaker 2: like the animation workers' rights have not improved by very
Speaker 2: much over the last one hundred years. So that's fucking sick.
Speaker 2: We love that. We love that.
Speaker 3: Do you have anything else you want to say about
Speaker 3: sausage Party?
Speaker 2: No, me either, it passes, it passes the vectl as
Speaker 2: but it doesn't matter.
Speaker 3: It doesn't matter. And the way women interact with each other,
Speaker 3: which is not often because again there's only really two
Speaker 3: there's one major female character in Brenda, and then there's
Speaker 3: a more minor character in Teresa. Other than that, any
Speaker 3: female coded characters have like maybe a line or two,
Speaker 3: and even that's rare, So most of the characters we
Speaker 3: meet are male coded, so there's really very little interaction
Speaker 3: between women. Although Brenda and Theresa do pass the Bechdel
Speaker 3: test because they talk about their sexual urges for each other.
Speaker 2: So right, and sure it counts, I count.
Speaker 3: But but but the way that women or like female
Speaker 3: coded characters interact with each other outside of that is
Speaker 3: like a lot of like the buns will be calling
Speaker 3: each other disparaging like sexist words like oh you bitch,
Speaker 3: oh you skank, stuff like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then we referenced this. But I guess the
Speaker 2: only other thing I have to say is the ableism
Speaker 2: that's present in the Michael Sarah character, and also that
Speaker 2: they suggest that he is disabled in some way and
Speaker 2: that the only way that he could find a partner
Speaker 2: is to find another disabled partner, which how that plays
Speaker 2: out in the end, which is just I mean, like
Speaker 2: it feels worth me. I don't even want to get
Speaker 2: into it really because it's just so fucked and ugly.
Speaker 2: And this this movie is I agree with letterboxed. This
Speaker 2: movie is is evil. Yeah, I don't I don't want
Speaker 2: to say another word about this movie. No nipples, don't
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 3: I would say negative five nipples and it's like a
Speaker 3: special lea their negative five.
Speaker 2: This movie is evil.
Speaker 3: The last thing I'll say about it is it's especially
Speaker 3: frustrating to me when there there's a movie that's attempting
Speaker 3: to make commentary on some kind of like societal or
Speaker 3: cultural thing, because it is attempting to say things like
Speaker 3: having blind faith in a deity can be dangerous, or
Speaker 3: which sure, attaching shame to sexuality and making people feel
Speaker 3: shame if they have sex, like quote unquote out of wedlock,
Speaker 3: or if they have sexual feelings toward someone of their
Speaker 3: same gender, the way that a lot of religions do
Speaker 3: you know, saying that that's wrong, or taking a religious
Speaker 3: text and distorting it to push your own agenda of
Speaker 3: prejudice and oppression, that's bad. Yeah, I agree with those things,
Speaker 3: but for the movie to try to make those claims
Speaker 3: and then turn around and put every reductive trope in
Speaker 3: existence into the movie and punch down to so many
Speaker 3: groups of marginalized people. Do you even hear yourself sausage party?
Speaker 2: Anyway? This movie sucks.
Speaker 3: I hate it. Negative five nipples and buy Jamie's book.
Speaker 2: Please buy my book Raw Dog. By changing lattist we're
Speaker 2: gonna put we'll put the link for where you can
Speaker 2: buy it. I prefer to use bookshop dot org. That
Speaker 2: will automatically link you to the closest independent bookstore that
Speaker 2: you can order it from and habit shipped from that
Speaker 2: is carrying the book. And please tell your friends. It's
Speaker 2: really helpful and I'm very proud of it. And also
Speaker 2: if you live in the cities, let's see if I
Speaker 2: remember of Los Angeles, San Francisco, Austin, Portland, Oregon, Boston, Brooklyn, Chicago, Chicago,
Speaker 2: and somewhere in Connecticut called the Mark Twain House. Those
Speaker 2: are the eighth places I will be going to promote
Speaker 2: the book. There will be events and we will link
Speaker 2: tickets as well because I will be leaving this week,
Speaker 2: so please please come.
Speaker 3: Out indeed and all the regular stuff. You can follow
Speaker 3: us on Twitter and Instagram. You can go to our
Speaker 3: Patreon aka Patreon and get access to two bonus episodes
Speaker 3: every month, plus the entire back catalog of bonus episodes.
Speaker 3: This month of May is my birthday and we are
Speaker 3: doing Office Space and redoing Back to the Future because
Speaker 3: our first Back to the Future episode has audio quality
Speaker 3: that is not great and we have one of my
Speaker 3: favorite movies, so I want to just do an updated
Speaker 3: version of the episode.
Speaker 2: You can check out our merch at teapublic dot com
Speaker 2: slash the Bechdel Cast if you are interested, grab a
Speaker 2: little merch and hope to see you. Hope to see
Speaker 2: you on the road soon. Love you, bye bye.