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Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I am at rati this week climate

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Speaker 1: negotiations as entertainment this sentence. Countries are urged to take

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Speaker 1: immediate actions to control the risks of climate change. Surely

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Speaker 1: we can all agree on this.

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Speaker 2: No, no, No, mean countries are urged.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry it is urgent. I feel urged.

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Speaker 2: I don't feel urged.

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Speaker 1: Do you feel urged?

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Speaker 3: Donel urgent?

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Speaker 2: Courage? Second?

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Speaker 1: Urged is a red line for us? Courage invited? Course, No,

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Speaker 1: we should all feel.

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Speaker 2: Urged the media. Countries are urged to take actions to

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Speaker 2: control the risk of climate change.

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Speaker 1: What are these actions?

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Speaker 4: An idealistic promise made today could close a factory in

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Speaker 4: Detroit tomorrow with.

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Speaker 2: On actions that would be economically beneficial as well.

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Speaker 1: No regrets. We second that rechoice. The line, or whatever

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Speaker 1: is left of it is a great.

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Speaker 5: A question for you. Actually, how many cops have you

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Speaker 5: been to?

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Speaker 1: Three? The last three?

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Speaker 5: They sound like marathon events.

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Speaker 1: Yeah they are. They are two weeks long and almost

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Speaker 1: always overrun, and everything gets shut down by the last

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Speaker 1: few days, and you're out of coffee and energy and

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Speaker 1: you're exhausted. It's sort of all cops, I think, not

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Speaker 1: just the last three.

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Speaker 5: It sounds a little drudgerous to be honest. I mean,

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Speaker 5: I'm not a fan of a very long meeting, so

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Speaker 5: I have to admit. When I heard that the Royal

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Speaker 5: Shakespeare Company was putting on a new play about Cop three,

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Speaker 5: which was held in Kyoto, I was very intrigued, but

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Speaker 5: also felt a little bit of trepidation about what it

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Speaker 5: is we would be sitting through.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, me too. When I was told that there is

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Speaker 1: a play about the Kyoto Protocol, I was surprised. You know,

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Speaker 1: there is a lot of drama at these places. It's

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Speaker 1: high stakes, all countries are involved, the fate of the

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Speaker 1: planet is involved. But it is really boring in the

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Speaker 1: fact that it's negotiations done over text and over words

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Speaker 1: that most people don't understand, and it's all a bit chaotic.

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Speaker 1: And so how do you make that entertaining? That was

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Speaker 1: the question to me when I heard there was a

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Speaker 1: play about it.

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Speaker 5: Today's episode is all about the play. We'll be hearing

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Speaker 5: from the director and one of the actors, and also

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Speaker 5: from someone who attended those Kyoto negotiations in nineteen ninety seven.

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Speaker 5: And yeah, it was long, but it didn't feel too long.

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Speaker 5: I thought part of what made it compelling was the

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Speaker 5: way it was staged. The stage is shaped like a

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Speaker 5: conference table. Members of the audience sit around it, so

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Speaker 5: they're kind of made to feel like they're part of

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Speaker 5: the negotiations.

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Speaker 1: The playwrights had to figure out how to shrink ten

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Speaker 1: years of history and two weeks of negotiations into a

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Speaker 1: couple of hours, and they had to do it in

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Speaker 1: a fixed setting. So the choice of the stage was important,

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Speaker 1: and I asked one of the police directors, Justin Martin,

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Speaker 1: about why the stage was shaped that way.

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Speaker 4: It's a conference table in which a lot of the

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Speaker 4: action happens around it, within the audience, but also yeah,

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Speaker 4: on top of the conference table. But as soon as

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Speaker 4: you put the audience in it, it has an inherent chaos

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Speaker 4: to it because they're in and around everything, and there

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Speaker 4: is a certain joy to the way in which the

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Speaker 4: actors move in and out around an audience.

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Speaker 5: There is definitely a bit of joyful chaos to the

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Speaker 5: whole thing, and it seemed to me, someone who's not

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Speaker 5: been to a cop before, that it probably did give

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Speaker 5: a reasonable approximation of what it's like when there's two

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Speaker 5: hundred different countries present trying to all agree on very

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Speaker 5: specific wording around how to take action on climate change.

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Speaker 5: The play really builds up to the end of the

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Speaker 5: Kyoto negotiation period where they reach an agreement in real life.

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Speaker 5: What did they actually agree on and why was it remarkable?

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Speaker 1: Well, by nineteen ninety seven was clear that climate change

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Speaker 1: is the problem that all countries have to deal with,

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Speaker 1: but rich, industrialized nations had contributed to the problem the most,

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Speaker 1: and the Kyoto Protocol was an agreement for all countries,

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Speaker 1: but developed countries signed up to legally binding targets to

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Speaker 1: reduce emissions over the next couple of decades, whereas developing

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Speaker 1: countries were exempt.

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Speaker 5: One thing I noticed while working on this episode is

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Speaker 5: that to this day, people still debate the significance of Kyoto,

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Speaker 5: like how monumental it was, because it was a big breakthrough,

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Speaker 5: but it wasn't nearly as decisive or successful as it

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Speaker 5: could have been. Back in the US Congress never ratified

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Speaker 5: the Kyoto Protocol, the US never was fully on board, and.

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Speaker 1: The countries that did sign up to those targets didn't

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Speaker 1: have particularly ambitious targets. Japan, for example, had to reduce

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Speaker 1: its emissions by six percent by twenty twelve, relative to

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety levels. Today, all countries have to reduce asis

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Speaker 1: by forty three percent by twenty thirty, So the scales

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Speaker 1: were completely different. And yet some countries like the UK

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Speaker 1: and European Union were able to achieve those targets quite easily.

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Speaker 1: Other countries like Japan still didn't meet them.

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Speaker 5: Can you make the case though, that what was agreed

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Speaker 5: and Kyoto did lay the groundwork for the twenty fifteen

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Speaker 5: Paris Agreement? Is that fair to say?

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Speaker 1: All COP meetings sort of build up on each other,

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Speaker 1: but there are more significant COP meetings and Kyoto was

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Speaker 1: one of them. It was the first time you saw

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Speaker 1: the power of country blocks coming together in negotiations. So

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Speaker 1: island nations formed an alliance, and that alliance has grown

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Speaker 1: in size and was crucial at the Paris Agreement, where

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Speaker 1: the target for one point five degrees celsius would not

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Speaker 1: have happened had island nations not grouped together and argued

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Speaker 1: for that target to exist. There were other technical things

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Speaker 1: that came from Kyoto, such as carbon markets have remained

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Speaker 1: in agreements. There is a carbon market framework inside the

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Speaker 1: Paris Agreement. And then there were fossil fuel lobbyists all

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Speaker 1: the way from the start of climate negotiations till now.

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Speaker 1: You know, we were at COP twenty eight in Dubai,

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Speaker 1: a country that built its wealth on oil and gas,

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Speaker 1: and that created so much controversy going into those negotiations.

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Speaker 5: And that's why you had mixed feelings about the choice

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Speaker 5: of the two writers on the play, Joe Robertson and

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Speaker 5: Joe Murphy, to make the narrator Don Pearlman, who's famously

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Speaker 5: a lobbyist working for fossil fuel companies, someone who Despiegel

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Speaker 5: called the high priest of the carbon Club. Let's hear

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Speaker 5: a bit of his opening monologue.

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Speaker 2: Runaway inflation, culture wars, real wars, race riots, fake news,

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Speaker 2: insane insurrections, global pandemics, and on top of all of that,

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Speaker 2: a planet in literal meltdown. And if you're a guy

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Speaker 2: like me looking at a time like now, the main

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Speaker 2: thing you think is wow, Man, the nineteen nineties were

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Speaker 2: freaking glorious.

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Speaker 6: Now.

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Speaker 2: I know what people like you think of lawyers like me,

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Speaker 2: But I'm the only one who can tell this story

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Speaker 2: because I'm the only one who was there.

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Speaker 5: Don Pearlman died in two thousand and five, but the

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Speaker 5: writer spoke to his family while researching the play, and

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Speaker 5: I thought they made him a really compelling, three dimensional character,

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Speaker 5: not just a cartoon villain. How familiar were you with

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Speaker 5: Pearlman before you saw the play?

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Speaker 1: Not very much. It did come up in a conversation

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Speaker 1: I had with the former US Vice President Al Gore

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Speaker 1: at COP twenty eight last year, who remembered very clearly

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Speaker 1: the kind of role that Don played.

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Speaker 6: There was a very famous in those days, very famous

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Speaker 6: cole lobbyists from the United States named Don Pearlman. Never

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Speaker 6: speak ill of the parted, but he was extremely influential,

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Speaker 6: really legendary, working hand in glove with the Saudi Arabian delegation.

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Speaker 5: I feel like legendary is an understatement. There After we

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Speaker 5: saw the play, I was still really curious about what

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Speaker 5: Don was like in real life, and so I called

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Speaker 5: up someone who had crossed paths with him at several

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Speaker 5: climate negotiations, including that COP in Kyoto.

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Speaker 3: So I started actually on another treaty, the Treaty to

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Speaker 3: protect the ozone layer that's called the Montreal Protocol. That's

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Speaker 3: where I first bumped into Don Perlman.

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Speaker 5: Actually, David Donnegher is now a strategist with the National

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Speaker 5: Resource Defense Council.

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Speaker 3: And then I worked in the Clinton administration and I

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Speaker 3: actually was part of the US negotiating team for the

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Speaker 3: Kyoto Protocol, and he was there, always standing in the

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Speaker 3: corner smoking. You would see him wait for the Saudi delegate.

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Speaker 3: Al Sabon represented OPEK Saudi Arabia, same goals. They worked

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Speaker 3: together in the play.

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Speaker 5: A lot of the drama is around these different representatives

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Speaker 5: arguing about the exact wording that everyone can agree on.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, very much so. I mean, going into every cop,

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Speaker 1: we tell listeners and readers, this is what US reporters

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Speaker 1: are going to have to deal with when we get

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Speaker 1: to cops. It's just going to be words on pages,

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Speaker 1: usually in square brackets, which are for not yet agreed,

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Speaker 1: and there will be a lot of back and forth

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Speaker 1: on those words. And the way agreements come about is

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Speaker 1: fascinating because it's so many countries, even if it's country blocks,

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Speaker 1: they have really different desires and yet they have to

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Speaker 1: agree on those same words. In all the cops I've seen,

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Speaker 1: and I think it's true of all cops in general,

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Speaker 1: agreement is partly reached through compromise, but also through exhaustion.

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Speaker 1: You know, people run out of coffee and coke and food,

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Speaker 1: and everything starts to shut down, and people's planes are leaving,

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Speaker 1: and you have to agree on something because this is

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Speaker 1: such an important problem and you cannot not do anything.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, that's what David remembered too.

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Speaker 3: We went all night and we finally achieved an agreement.

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Speaker 3: And by the way, this is when they had run

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Speaker 3: out of Coca cola, and I mean areas on fumes

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Speaker 3: and anyway, about five or six in the morning, we

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Speaker 3: agreed on the Kyoto protocol. I remember a Washington Post

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Speaker 3: reporter called me. My punchline was, this is a good

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Speaker 3: day to adopt a treaty, but a bad day to

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Speaker 3: operate heavy machinery.

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Speaker 5: David hasn't seen the play at the moment. You can

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Speaker 5: only see it in Stratford upon Avon until the thirteenth

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Speaker 5: of July. But because he was there at the negotiations

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Speaker 5: in Kyoto, I wanted to know what he thought about

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Speaker 5: Don's presence and lasting impact on the whole agreement.

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Speaker 3: He was kind of an outsized personality because even though

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Speaker 3: he was quiet, because he just stood there and smoked

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Speaker 3: and glowered and muttered. So he became a symbol of

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Speaker 3: you know, the bad actor, but there are hundreds of them.

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Speaker 3: You could say that the legacy of Don Perman is

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Speaker 3: the capture of the Republican Party by the fossil fuel industry.

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Speaker 1: Clearly, Don Pulman was a big character, and he was

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Speaker 1: a big character not just in Kyoto, but in negotiations

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Speaker 1: all the way through the nineties. But it was weird

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Speaker 1: to me that the playwrights chose him not just to

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Speaker 1: be a character but also the narrator. So you had

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Speaker 1: this guy who was in his real life showing disagreement

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Speaker 1: where you needed agreement, and then being the narrator telling

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Speaker 1: you why his attempts to sew disagreement weren't quite working.

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Speaker 1: And I felt that was a little disjointed, but you know,

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Speaker 1: playwrights have a difficult job. I've never written a play.

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Speaker 1: It was entertaining.

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Speaker 5: I can see where you're coming from, as someone who

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Speaker 5: still had their climate reporter had on even while in

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Speaker 5: the theater. To me, I thought, there are some really

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Speaker 5: smart reasons why they had him as a main character,

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Speaker 5: and it pulled me in a little more into the

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Speaker 5: human drama.

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Speaker 1: I certainly enjoyed the actor who played Don Pearlman. And

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Speaker 1: after the break, we'll have a conversation with that actor

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Speaker 1: Stephen Kunkin. By the way, if you're enjoying this episode,

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Speaker 1: please take a moment to rate and review the show

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Speaker 1: on Spotify or Apple. It helps other listeners find it.

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Speaker 5: The character of Don Pearlman, as you heard, was central

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Speaker 5: to the drama leading up to the Kyoto Protocol, both

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Speaker 5: in real life and in the play. In this production,

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Speaker 5: he's larger than life, and a lot of that has

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Speaker 5: to do with the way actor Stephen Kunkin inhabits the role.

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Speaker 5: Actually caught up with Stephen the morning actor Kyoto's opening night.

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Speaker 5: They spoke in the offices of the Royal Shakespeare Company

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Speaker 5: in Stratford upon Avon.

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Speaker 1: You played the role of Don Pullman, the lawyer working

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Speaker 1: for the Seven Sisters, the Big ol companies, and later

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Speaker 1: for Saudi Arabia. He's someone climate people are very critical of.

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Speaker 1: When I spoke with Al Gore last year, he called

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Speaker 1: him legendary and not in a nice way. Over the

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Speaker 1: span of many years, his job was to impede, to

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Speaker 1: slow down, to water down, or just really thwart any

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Speaker 1: possible meaningful action from being taken on climate change. Had

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Speaker 1: you heard of Don Pullman before you read this play

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Speaker 1: and what made you say yes.

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Speaker 2: I had not heard of Don Perlman before this play,

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Speaker 2: and I think that's it's that's not an accident. I

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Speaker 2: think Don very much lived in the shadows and was

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Speaker 2: most comfortable doing his work there. You know, coming to

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Speaker 2: the process of doing Don, it came out of a

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Speaker 2: real desire to want to reconnect as an artist to

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Speaker 2: doing things that felt important that we're challenging ideas and

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Speaker 2: concepts that I was struggling with in my own life,

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Speaker 2: and you know, we are walking through such a fractured

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Speaker 2: time right now, and I really wanted to try to

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Speaker 2: do something that helped me move my own understanding of

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Speaker 2: why it was impossible to connect with family members or

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Speaker 2: friends who had different political ideas or different social valuations

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Speaker 2: on things that I was very very sure about. And

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Speaker 2: you know, one of the responsibilities you have as an

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Speaker 2: actor is to find empathy for the characters that you play,

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Speaker 2: and I felt like when I read Don that we

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Speaker 2: weren't going to do a hit job on Don Perlman.

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Speaker 2: I think that's an easy thing to do, is to

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Speaker 2: shoot fish in a barrel. If you want to do that,

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Speaker 2: I think you're just preaching basically to the choir, and

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Speaker 2: so I wanted to find out what about Don made

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Speaker 2: sense to me, because that seems to me in this

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Speaker 2: moment to be the way that we can move forward

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Speaker 2: is to try to find commonality with the people that

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Speaker 2: we don't see eye to eye with. And the most

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Speaker 2: interesting thing I've sort of discovered about Don is the

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Speaker 2: same thing that lawyers often do, which is they provide

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Speaker 2: the best defense for often what from the outside world

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Speaker 2: we find reprehensible. You're only ever as good as the

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Speaker 2: strongest defense. And Don was providing a very strong defense

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Speaker 2: for the Seven sisters, and there is a lot of

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Speaker 2: ideology in there. It's been very, very interesting. I've ended up,

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Speaker 2: you know, I've spoken a bit with his son, and

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Speaker 2: he's become much more human in my mind and three dimensional. Now.

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Speaker 1: The writers of the play made a choice to not

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Speaker 1: just center the play around Don's character, your character. Terrible choice, terrible, terrible,

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Speaker 1: But they also made Don the narrator. Why was that

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Speaker 1: choice made? Because you flipped between these two roles, one

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Speaker 1: who is dedicated to spoiling any agreement versus one who

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Speaker 1: is observing an agreement form despite your attempts, And as

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Speaker 1: a viewer, that was the only thing I was a

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Speaker 1: little jarred about.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I personally think that this play is inert

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Speaker 2: if you have rale Estrata as your narrator, if you

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Speaker 2: have someone who not because he wasn't a remarkable human

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Speaker 2: being and had agency and the right to tell the story.

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Speaker 2: But what is compelling about this narrative is putting it

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Speaker 2: in the hands of the person who didn't want this

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Speaker 2: to go the way that it went. And for me,

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Speaker 2: that's the kind of the brilliant moment they the eureka moment.

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Speaker 2: Otherwise otherwise it in some ways, it kind of becomes

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Speaker 2: a jingoistic and don't I don't want it to be

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Speaker 2: that I've always felt and I know that they feel

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Speaker 2: that they want this to be an even handed look

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Speaker 2: at what this time was. And I think don is

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Speaker 2: vital in telling that story.

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Speaker 1: So do you think of Pullman as a bad actor

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Speaker 1: in moral terms or just a consummate strategist, someone who's

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Speaker 1: really good at the politics and game theory, just a

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Speaker 1: very good lawyer.

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Speaker 2: I think it's a really gray area on how one

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Speaker 2: splits that atom. He works in the gray area because

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Speaker 2: you know, as we discussed in the play, it's all

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Speaker 2: about language. You know, I think the big question was

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Speaker 2: what did Don know? And when did Don know it?

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Speaker 2: And then once you know that, what do you do

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Speaker 2: that information. I still think that everybody deserves the strongest defense,

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Speaker 2: and hopefully, you know, the policy that can be made

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Speaker 2: against a strong defense will last time as opposed to

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Speaker 2: just being watered down.

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Speaker 1: Now. Don died in two thousand and five. He was

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Speaker 1: a chainsmoker where I'm going to go and do a

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Speaker 1: few spoilers, but the last scenes are him on his

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Speaker 1: deathbed and his wife talking about him as a person.

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Speaker 1: Because as the writers the two Joe's figured this out.

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Speaker 1: They figured it out through reading about him, but also

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Speaker 1: through meeting his family, his wife and then son. But

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Speaker 1: all through this, what do you think Don's character is?

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Speaker 1: Is it a tragedy?

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Speaker 2: I think for Don it's a bit of an adventure story.

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Speaker 2: You know, here's a guy who was doing a very

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Speaker 2: specific thing in the Department of Energy under the Reagan

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Speaker 2: administration and he comes out of that period of time

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Speaker 2: looking for new purpose. And you know, when climate policy

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Speaker 2: was first being written, it was, as Don says in

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Speaker 2: the play, could be seen as a voluntary redistribution of wealth.

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Speaker 2: As countries who had a bigger claim to more immediate concerns. Suddenly,

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Speaker 2: were you know, tying up Western civilization again to quote

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Speaker 2: the play in a straight jacket. And I think he

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Speaker 2: worked very, very hard to find a rugged way through.

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Speaker 2: And I go back to this discussion I had with

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Speaker 2: the family a long time ago, where I was sitting

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Speaker 2: at the table. I wasn't long out of graduate school

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Speaker 2: at Juilliard, where I just spent four years studying Shakespeare,

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Speaker 2: and I sat down with my family, sort of distant family,

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Speaker 2: who were lawyers, all lawyers who wanted to debate whether

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Speaker 2: Shakespeare was of any value anymore. It bore no relevance

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Speaker 2: to modern society. Most people couldn't understand it. They felt

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Speaker 2: most people they didn't like it, and they pretended that

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Speaker 2: they liked it, and most people would rather see a

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Speaker 2: modern play. So what was the actual purpose of Shakespeare?

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Speaker 2: And sitting amongst this these legal minds, I found myself

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Speaker 2: sort of devoid of any good, any good defense for Shakespeare.

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Speaker 2: And and but they took such an incredible joy in

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Speaker 2: sort of breaking down you know what I think would

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Speaker 2: be widely accepted as the great you know writer in

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Speaker 2: the English language. And there's that mind that I don't

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Speaker 2: know that I possess that kind of literal mind to

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Speaker 2: sort of when everyone else says black, prove that it's white.

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Speaker 2: And that to me has a lot about what Don

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Speaker 2: does in this play, and it's very very interesting. It's

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Speaker 2: very heavy to step into that, into that world where

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Speaker 2: you know that you are the one person who sees

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Speaker 2: something in one way and can manipulate people to walk

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Speaker 2: in that direction.

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Speaker 1: So there is a universality to his character in some sense,

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Speaker 1: which is to say, there are Don Pulman's in the past,

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Speaker 1: there are Don Pulman's in the present, and there will

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Speaker 1: be Don Pullman's in the future. Who would you characterize

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Speaker 1: as the Don Pullmans of today?

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Speaker 2: Oh gosh, I mean, you know, it's funny. Just the

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Speaker 2: other night, I came home from the show and I

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Speaker 2: was really I had a lot of energy and stupidly

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Speaker 2: was doom scrolling through Instagram and found some sort of

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Speaker 2: friend who who has gotten in a very different political

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Speaker 2: way than I have. And I don't know why. I

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Speaker 2: don't usually answer people on Instagram. I don't usually engage

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Speaker 2: in political discourse online. But for this whatever reason, is

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Speaker 2: probably because Don Perlman was still strong in my in

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Speaker 2: my engine. I got into a you know, one thirty

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Speaker 2: am because of the time difference fight with this with

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Speaker 2: this friend. And you know, Dohn Perlman's exist on both sides.

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Speaker 2: You know, the people who are in our country who

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Speaker 2: are watching Fox News think that the Don pearl Ones

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Speaker 2: were on CNN, and the people who were watching CNN

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Speaker 2: think that the Don Pearlmans are on Fox News and Bloomberg.

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Speaker 2: I think is much more right down the middle. It's

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Speaker 2: very very fair. So but yeah, I mean they're you know,

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Speaker 2: punditry has become the place I think a lot of

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Speaker 2: the Don Peerlmans live because so much policy is now

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Speaker 2: made in the public, in the social media, really in

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Speaker 2: the social media realm, where people's opinions start to really

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Speaker 2: shape and shift. And so if you can get to

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Speaker 2: them early, even long before they get to a voting booth,

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Speaker 2: you can get it just by putting up a fake

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Speaker 2: viral video, or you can put out a factoid that shapes,

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Speaker 2: you know, a movement. So I'm it's hard to put

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Speaker 2: my finger on it. I wouldn't say that it's on

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Speaker 2: one side or the other. I mean, I think it's

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Speaker 2: just the it's the art of manipulation, and you know

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Speaker 2: that's it's it's everywhere.

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Speaker 1: What do you hope the audience is left with at

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Speaker 1: the end of the performance.

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Speaker 2: The biggest thing that I have found, and I discovered

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Speaker 2: this in sort of like this aha moment that happened

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Speaker 2: when we were still rehearsing in London and we got

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Speaker 2: to the big scene in this play. And you know,

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Speaker 2: it's not a spoiler because I think we can all

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Speaker 2: read the history of what happened in Kyoto, although that

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Speaker 2: history is you know, malleable if you look at it

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Speaker 2: through the lens of time. But the process of agreement

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Speaker 2: ultimately seems to me not to be intellectual. It's emotional,

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Speaker 2: and I've found that incredibly hopeful and inspiring that you know,

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Speaker 2: you take a brilliant mind like Don Perlman, who could

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Speaker 2: dot every iron, cross every tee and make every cow

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Speaker 2: dance on the head of a pin. But at the

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Speaker 2: end of the day, if the emotional commitment to get

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Speaker 2: something done outweighs that intellectual commitment, things can change. And

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Speaker 2: we're in this moment where I think we feel powerless

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Speaker 2: to make change because things don't make sense. The problems

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Speaker 2: of climate change are so massive and seem like they're

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Speaker 2: just there's there's nothing we can do, And all really

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Speaker 2: takes is is the belief and the hope that we

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Speaker 2: can do something and that can actually be the one

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Speaker 2: thing that moves the ball across the line. So that's

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Speaker 2: that's what I hope people take away, that there is

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Speaker 2: there is power in one's belief.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, Steven, thank you for listening to Zero, and

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Speaker 1: for those who stayed till the end. Here is the

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Speaker 1: sound of.

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Speaker 3: The WEE.

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Speaker 6: Will recommend this, but.

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Speaker 3: Let me recommend it.

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Speaker 1: Will recommend the adoption of this protocol to the conference

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Speaker 1: by you. That is the sound of the Kyoto Protocol

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Speaker 1: being agreed on in nineteen ninety seven, recorded on AVHS

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Speaker 1: tape using electrical energy converted into magnetic energy, then converted

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Speaker 1: back to electrical energy as it was uploaded to YouTube

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Speaker 1: by the United Nations. If you liked this episode, please

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Speaker 1: take a moment to rate or review the show on

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Share this episode with a friend

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Speaker 1: or with someone who likes going to theater. You can

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Speaker 1: get in touch at zero pod at Bloomberg dot Net.

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Speaker 1: Zero's producer is Mighty Lee Rao, Bloomberg's head of podcasts

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00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:43,359
Speaker 1: is Sagebauman and head of Talk is Brendan newnam Our

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Speaker 1: theme music is composed by Wonderly Special thanks to Kirra Bindrim,

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Speaker 1: Alicia Clanton, Anamazarakis and the Royal Shakespeare i am Kshatrati

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Speaker 1: back So