1 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: All right, It's a sunny Saturday afternoon in April, and 2 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:10,879 Speaker 1: I've driven up to New Rochelle, New York, a suburb 3 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 1: just north of New York City. Get the park three 4 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: blocks away. I mean, they're people are showing up for 5 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 1: this there. I'm here for a celebration. A lot of 6 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: activity here, a lot of excitement. Really more of a commemoration. 7 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: You know. The mayor is going to be here, dignitary. 8 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: You see, everyone has gathered here today to honor the 9 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 1: person that put New Rochelle on the map. You travel 10 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 1: out of state and you tell something. While I live 11 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: in Rochelle, the first thing they'll tell you his ome 12 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 1: The Dick Van Dyke Show, Dick Van Dyke Show, Starry 13 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:49,199 Speaker 1: Dick Van Dyke. Beloved actor Dick Van Dyke played comedy 14 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: writer Rob Petrie. On The Dick Van Dyke Show. A 15 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: young Mary Tyler Moore played his wife, Laura. Would you 16 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 1: stage your name in the please where it's Mrs Laura 17 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:04,479 Speaker 1: Petrie One for a Bonnie Meta Road, Michelle, New York. 18 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 1: That's right. The fictional couple lived in New Rochelle, and 19 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: today the townspeople are dedicating the real Bonnie Meta Road 20 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 1: to the hit nineteen sixty series You can take a 21 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:19,040 Speaker 1: picture in the TV love to do that with Nancy 22 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 1: Ann with you, Dick Van Dyke, show creator nineties seven 23 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: year old comedy legend Carl Reiner even skyped in for 24 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:32,319 Speaker 1: the occasion. Mccar he's wearing Argyle's sweater. He looks great. Actually, 25 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 1: the reason the show was set in New Rochelle when 26 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 1: Reiner was just starting out, he and his family lived here. 27 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: Every episode has a little me and my wife. Now, 28 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:46,680 Speaker 1: as much as I loved Rob and Laura Petrie, there's 29 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 1: another person, a real person, who lived in New Rochelle 30 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 1: and who was pretty important other than Carl Renner, you 31 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 1: know who else is from here for a while. Andrew 32 00:01:55,560 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 1: Mitchell Andrewell of Fine. Oh, let's say I'm trying to 33 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 1: thank jowing a blank. Well, let's um, he wrote pamphlets, pamphlets. 34 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 1: Carl Reiner knows who I'm talking about. No more important 35 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 1: name in our history than Tom Paine. Yes, Thomas Payne. 36 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:21,959 Speaker 1: He didn't just write pamphlets with his pen. He helped 37 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 1: birth this very country. Oh my god, could right. You're 38 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 1: a great writer, and you acknowledge that he was a 39 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 1: great writer as well, Oh well, let's say high squibble, 40 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 1: he wrote. Yes, Payne's pamphlet Common Sense is not only 41 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: one of the best selling publications in American history, it 42 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: was the intellectual spark that lit the fuse for the 43 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:50,079 Speaker 1: American Revolution. Without him, there might not be a United States. Yet, 44 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 1: when Payne died, only six people showed up at his funeral. 45 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 1: The paltry opit that was published at the time summed 46 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 1: up his life in this line, he had lived long, 47 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 1: did some good and much harm. Even after Pain died, 48 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 1: he couldn't rest in peace. The guy's bones were stolen. 49 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 1: And was Thomas Paine a founding father? I don't know 50 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:18,079 Speaker 1: the answer that was in this episode? Will tell you 51 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 1: why Pain matters, and we'll give him the send off 52 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 1: he deserves, complete with an original Mobits production number without 53 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 1: the brain. Make no mistake, no Pain, No Gain of 54 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: Independence from CBS Sunday Morning and Simon and Schuster. I'm 55 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 1: Morocca and this is mobituaries. This mobit Thomas Paine June eight, 56 00:03:54,720 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 1: eight o nine, death of a forgotten founding father to 57 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 1: pactically started this whole country. He's dead. What are you 58 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 1: learning her about? Dead people? For all I want you 59 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: to do is teach your i'd act with life people. 60 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 1: Education is a very difficult thing to control, Harry. One 61 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 1: thing that was the incomparable comedian Judy Holiday teaching her 62 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:32,840 Speaker 1: bullying boyfriend a thing or two in the film Born Yesterday. 63 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 1: The scenes funny because it's true many of us have 64 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 1: heard of Thomas Paine but don't really know what he did. 65 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:44,239 Speaker 1: This is an important guy, right yes before scientific polls. 66 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:48,040 Speaker 1: One way to measure public opinion, A proxy for it anyway, 67 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 1: might be pamphlet sales. Anthony Salvonto heads up the CBS 68 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 1: News polling unit. I asked him to help us gauge 69 00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:01,640 Speaker 1: how well recognized or unrecognized Thomas Payne is as a 70 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:05,359 Speaker 1: founding father. The polling unit called a random sampling of 71 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 1: a thousand people. The way this one is asked is 72 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: you know which of these people as a founding father? 73 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 1: And Thomas Payne's name was was put out there. The 74 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:20,159 Speaker 1: choices were Abraham Lincoln, Thomas Payne, Frederick Douglas Fitzgerald, Thomas Grant. 75 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,359 Speaker 1: The third who you know as Oh you got me? 76 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: Anthony was the president on the TV show Scandal with 77 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 1: Kerry Washington. Come on, thank you. Other choices included James 78 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:34,599 Speaker 1: Tiberius Kirk, the Captain of the Enterprise, Colonel Sanders, Will Smith, 79 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:38,599 Speaker 1: Frank Sinatra, and I don't know. And what were the results. Well, 80 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 1: if Frank Sinatra comes in at one percent, old blue 81 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:45,279 Speaker 1: eyes might not be happy with that. But here's the 82 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:50,599 Speaker 1: most striking result. Forty three percent selected Abraham Lincoln as 83 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 1: the one founding father on the list. And now, obviously 84 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 1: he comes some years after the people we think of 85 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 1: as founding father. In fact, four score and seven years 86 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: later exactly, Sir, just of respondents correctly named Thomas Paine. 87 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: So the recognition of Pain as a founding father is 88 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 1: mixed at best, even if most of us recognize the 89 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 1: man's words, I know, and it's amazing. People may have 90 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 1: known that he said these are the times at time 91 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 1: and souls. They may know that he said, we have 92 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 1: it in our power to begin the world over again. 93 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:26,040 Speaker 1: They may know that he wrote common sense, but they 94 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:30,280 Speaker 1: don't really know who he is. That's Pain. Biographer Craig D. Nelson, 95 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 1: not to be confused with actor Craig T. Nelson. A 96 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 1: little bit of housekeeping, how often are you asked if 97 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:41,559 Speaker 1: you start in the sitcom coach all the time, Yeah, 98 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 1: all the time. In fact, I think I'd help me 99 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:46,920 Speaker 1: launch my career that people thought I was coached, so 100 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:48,720 Speaker 1: they would buy the book and then I chop at 101 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:52,239 Speaker 1: autographics and they'd be horribly disappointed. But to they already paid. 102 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:56,479 Speaker 1: But good point. You got him in the tent. Why not? 103 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:59,720 Speaker 1: Why did you want to write about Tom Paine? Well, 104 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: I had this fun He's a little article that talked 105 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 1: about how, ten years after he died, his biggest fan 106 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 1: went to New Rochelle and dug his bones up. So today, 107 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: if you do a Thomas Pain book and you will 108 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: find this out when this podcast comes out, people will 109 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 1: contact you to see if you would like to buy 110 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 1: a bone. And have you ever touched one of Thomas 111 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: Pain's bones? Which one? Which bones? I think it was 112 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 1: like a finger. But someone showed up and tried to 113 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 1: sell me something. And I want to assure listeners that 114 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 1: we will talk about what happened to his bones later 115 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 1: in the episode. But suffice it to say, Craig, this 116 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: kind of devotion is remarkable. When Thomas Pain was alive, 117 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 1: he was the most famous person in the world. He 118 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 1: knew everyone, he knew Jefferson, he knew Washington, he knew Robespierre, 119 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 1: he knew I mean, it's it's astonishing who is associated. 120 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 1: And he'd come a very long way as opposed to 121 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 1: most of the other founding fathers who came from money. 122 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 1: Paine was born in sevente into humble circumstances in England. 123 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 1: He's like the work class founder. What inspires him to 124 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 1: even come to America. He had the most horrible life 125 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 1: you could possibly have in England. His mother was an 126 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 1: Anglican named Francis Cock, who married a Quaker named Joseph Payne, 127 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: thus making her anyway. Joseph was a staymaker another way 128 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 1: of saying. He made corsets that were a combination like 129 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 1: a boostier and a girdle, this giant, one piece thing 130 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 1: that women wore, right but anyway, so that's what he did. 131 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 1: Young Thomas drops out of school at twelve. A few 132 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 1: years later, when Britain goes to war with France, Payne 133 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 1: seeks adventure on the high seas as a privateer, capturing 134 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 1: enemy ships for the British government. It looks like he 135 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: made quite a bit of money doing that, and he 136 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 1: ended up taking you know, junior year abroad. He ended 137 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:53,439 Speaker 1: up as a twenty year old man wandering around London 138 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 1: taking classes, basically giving himself the education that the middle 139 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: class founders are getting in schools. He got himself. He 140 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 1: learned how to write, he learned all about the classics. 141 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 1: So Thomas Payne is like a sponge. He's absorbing us. Yes, 142 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:11,679 Speaker 1: he has bills to pay, though, so he takes up 143 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:15,559 Speaker 1: his father's trade of staymaking. But things are too tight. 144 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 1: Pain can't make ends meet and soon falls into debt. 145 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 1: And this is where things really start going south. And 146 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:25,959 Speaker 1: so you see Tommy's pain moving from town to town, 147 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 1: one step ahead of his creditors. And his personal life 148 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: is a disaster. He has one wife who dies in 149 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 1: Childsworth and loses the child too. He has another wife 150 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 1: he's separated from. He tries to be a staymaker, he 151 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:39,679 Speaker 1: tries to be a grocer, he tries to be a 152 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: tax collector, and fails at all of these things. It's 153 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: during his time as a tax collector that Paine first 154 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: catches the activist bog the country's excise officers another way 155 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 1: of saying, tax collectors hadn't received a raise in over 156 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 1: a century, and Pain felt they were overdue. So he 157 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:02,200 Speaker 1: writes one of his very first pamphle, it's demanding better pay. 158 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: It doesn't go over so well. He's fired from his 159 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:08,319 Speaker 1: job and forced to sell off most of his possessions. 160 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:11,600 Speaker 1: So personally and professionally he's kind of a wreck. There's 161 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 1: no place to go but to get on a boat. 162 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:17,680 Speaker 1: Luckily for Paine, he had made a valuable connection in London. 163 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 1: Benjamin Franklin, who was representing colonial interests in England, met 164 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:26,440 Speaker 1: Paine and was impressed by the young firebrand. Benjamin Franklin 165 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 1: called him his adopted political son, and so, carrying a 166 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 1: letter of recommendation from Franklin, Thomas Paine sets sail for 167 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 1: the New World. But the voyage across the Atlantic isn't easy. 168 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 1: Paine almost dies from Typhus. He arrives none too soon 169 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: in November of seventeen seventy four, lands in Philadelphia, where 170 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 1: Franklin's from, and until the place to go. Yeah, this 171 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 1: is a big city in America at that moment, and 172 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: almost immediately he becomes the editor of Pennsylvania Magazine. Paine 173 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 1: builds Pennsylvania Magazine into the widest circulating in the colonies, 174 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 1: but it's with a different kind of periodical that he 175 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 1: makes his biggest impact. Pain was a big, big, big 176 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: hottie in the pamphlet world. Yes, pamphlets were hot in 177 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 1: the seventeen seventies. What's the deal with pamphlets because I 178 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: associate pamphlets with pre nine eleven, when people could roam 179 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:27,439 Speaker 1: around airports with these things, handing them to you when arrived, 180 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 1: saying please join my group. So pamphlet is a little 181 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:33,840 Speaker 1: tiny essay. They were like ten pages maybe tops, and 182 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:36,320 Speaker 1: they were just printed on a great big broadsheet and 183 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 1: then folded up and heads it out to people. But 184 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 1: you would have the biggest um. Local heroes would be 185 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 1: publishing pamphlets, So you would read Thomas Jefferson pamphlets, and 186 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 1: you'd read Alexander Hamilton pamphlets. Does he make a name 187 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 1: for himself quickly? No, that happens because of offering to 188 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 1: write a pamphlet to condence Americans that they should no 189 00:11:57,240 --> 00:11:59,959 Speaker 1: longer call themselves Britain's, that they should call themselves America. 190 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 1: And you say that in a very understated way. That's 191 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 1: kind of a big deal. The pamphlet Craig is talking 192 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 1: about was written six months before the declaration of independence. 193 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 1: It was common sense after Uncle Tom's cabin. It's the 194 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:17,080 Speaker 1: most influential piece of writing in American history. And he 195 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:19,680 Speaker 1: turns every single thing the British had been saying on 196 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: their heads and comes up with an explanation for why 197 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 1: Americans should go it alone, and why it'll be great 198 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:27,079 Speaker 1: to be an American and we'll have this whole continent 199 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 1: and we'll run our own affairs and will stop being 200 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 1: insulted by the British. You see, the great majority of 201 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 1: colonists had come here with real estate contracts that guaranteed 202 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 1: that the only taxes they'd have to pay were local. 203 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 1: But like all good deals, that seemed too good to 204 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 1: be true. It was when the British needed to fund 205 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 1: the Seven Years War the taxes started piling up, the 206 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 1: Stamp Act, the Paper Act, all of these different acts 207 00:12:56,280 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 1: they pursued. So Tom Payne is tapping into fury, a 208 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 1: sense of betrayal, disrespect, fueled by his own outrage pain 209 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: articulates in common sense a grand ambition for the would 210 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 1: be nation. The cause of America is in great measure 211 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 1: the cause of all mankind. I mean that is a 212 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 1: topic sentence. It's no surprise that Bartlett's book of quotations 213 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 1: is full of lines from Thomas Paine, lines said frankly, 214 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:31,320 Speaker 1: I don't have the voice to deliver. Now, who do 215 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 1: I know with a voice sonorous, stentorian and authoritative enough 216 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 1: to read Thomas Paine's words? Wait, wait, don't tell me. 217 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 1: I know who does from NPR and Easy Chicago. This 218 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:47,559 Speaker 1: is wait, wait, don't tell me the NPR news quiz. 219 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 1: You know who could do this? Bill Curtis, the scorekeeper 220 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: on Wait, wait, don't tell me. He does a lot 221 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 1: of movie trailers, you know, in a world, But you 222 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 1: want him to read these lines? Guys, we should get 223 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:58,920 Speaker 1: Bill Curtis to read some of these lines. We're going 224 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 1: to do that. It will include me actually saying it 225 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 1: right now, because it will make the audience feel like 226 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:07,199 Speaker 1: you're part of the whole process. And so I called 227 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 1: in a favor. Now, my friend Bill Curtis isn't just 228 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 1: scorekeeper for Weight Weight, where I've been a panelist the 229 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:16,680 Speaker 1: last twenty years. He's an Emmy winning news anchor and, 230 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 1: perhaps most legendarily, the narrator of the movie Anchorman, and 231 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: in San Diego, one anchor man was more man than 232 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: the rest. His name was Ron Burgundy. So here we 233 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 1: are comin, says we have it in our power to 234 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 1: begin the world over again. Tell it Bill. Society in 235 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 1: every state is a blessing. But government, even in its 236 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: best state, is but a necessary evil. In its worst 237 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 1: state that intolerable one can argue with that there is 238 00:14:55,800 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 1: something very absurd. And supposing a continent to be perpetually 239 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 1: governed by an island goose bumps right. It is not 240 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: in numbers, but in unity that our great strength lies. 241 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 1: It's important to remember that the very notion of the 242 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 1: colonies banding together, a central argument of common Sense, was new. 243 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 1: Did the colonies even think they had anything to do 244 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 1: with each other? Though they thought of themselves as Virginians 245 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 1: or New Yorkers, they did not really identify with each other. Yet, 246 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: up until common sense, being American wasn't really a concept 247 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 1: or a compliment. The word American at this point met 248 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 1: at cracker Hill Billy that it met someone who is 249 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 1: a piece of trash. Because the English considered all of 250 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 1: their colonies to be outlying, low rent, trashy, vulgar people 251 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 1: who are stupid and ignorant. Paine rebranded the word American 252 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 1: beyond separation from England. Common Sense called for an end 253 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 1: to hereditary monarchy. Back to you Bill in short, monarchy 254 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 1: and succession have LAIDs not this or that kingdom only, 255 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: but the world in blood and ashes. At first, Pain 256 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 1: kept his name off the pamphlet. First of all, it 257 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: was a very dangerous thing to way it was. It 258 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 1: was treasonous. Does he sign it later? Yes, And he 259 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 1: does take credit for it eventually, And people know who 260 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 1: it is anyway, because it's a very like big small 261 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 1: town at the time. What do the other founding fathers 262 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 1: think when this thing catches fire? Oh, Thomas Jefferson thinks 263 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 1: he's fantastic and they become close friends. A lot of 264 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: people attributed it first to John Adams, and at first 265 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 1: he says, I if only I did, And then he 266 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 1: in Pain have a falling out in time in spite 267 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 1: of the bad blood between the two men. Adams reportedly said, 268 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 1: without the pen of the author of Common Sense, the 269 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 1: Sword of Washington would have been raised in vain. But 270 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 1: it's not just what Pain writes, it's how he writes. 271 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:05,119 Speaker 1: Paine understood that since most people at the time were illiterate, 272 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 1: Common Sense had to be written in plain English that 273 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 1: could be read out loud. It's very modern, and he's 274 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 1: writing for broadcast, not for one of these outlier cable 275 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 1: channels where you're preaching to the choir. And you know, 276 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:21,680 Speaker 1: he's he's trying to reach as many people as possible, 277 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:25,880 Speaker 1: and he does right. If there had been no Thomas Paine, 278 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:30,160 Speaker 1: there would have been no what there would have been. 279 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:33,680 Speaker 1: Eventually the United States might have been formed, but it 280 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 1: wouldn't have been unified into a country the way it was, 281 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:40,200 Speaker 1: in the manner that it was. You give him and 282 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 1: common Sense that much credit. Absolutely pain puts his money 283 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:51,119 Speaker 1: where his mouth is, donating the proceeds from Common Sense 284 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:56,120 Speaker 1: to the Continental Army. And shortly after the colonies declare independence, 285 00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:59,639 Speaker 1: Payne joins the army, serving as an aide de camp 286 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:04,640 Speaker 1: to General Nathaniel Green. But he doesn't stop writing pains. 287 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 1: Sequel to Common Sense is the American Crisis, a whole 288 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 1: series of pamphlets that serves as a rallying cry during 289 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:17,639 Speaker 1: the conflict's darkest days. Well, this is during the very 290 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 1: long period in which the Americans are losing the Revolutionary War. 291 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 1: He's trying to buck up everybody's spirits. He's writing, all 292 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 1: these other people don't give up on Washington in the war. 293 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:31,439 Speaker 1: There's a spectacular moment where he writes one of his 294 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 1: biggest pieces, and it's the night before they're going to 295 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:39,160 Speaker 1: go from Philadelphia to Trenton, Washington, Washington crossing the Telaware 296 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 1: famous picture, and it's the first real victory of the 297 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:45,880 Speaker 1: American Revolution. And the night before he has them all 298 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 1: listened to pains where it's by candle light. So it's 299 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 1: a very beautiful thing. These are the times that Triman souls. 300 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 1: The submert soldier and the sunshine patriot will in this 301 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:02,199 Speaker 1: crisis shrink from the us of their country. But he 302 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:05,879 Speaker 1: that stands it now deserves the love and thanks of 303 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 1: men and women. Tyranny like hell, is not easily conquered. 304 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 1: Yet we have this consolation with us. That's the harder 305 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 1: the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. So the war 306 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 1: ends and Thomas Payne is riding high. His writing unified 307 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 1: the colonists, roused the armies of our land to victory, 308 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:33,400 Speaker 1: delivered us to freedom. It's a ghoulish hypothetical. But had 309 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:38,680 Speaker 1: he died, you know, say, in three would he would 310 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 1: his reputation be different? Oh? Absolutely, It's a shame in fact, 311 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:45,680 Speaker 1: in fact that die young. They have a pretty corse. 312 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:50,399 Speaker 1: There's the number one prisoner should have done it. But 313 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 1: that's not how history works. So how did Thomas Payne 314 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 1: go from legend to pariah? The answer lies in what 315 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 1: happened after the war. Right closes, then I'm back in 316 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 1: New Rochelle at the Thomas Pain Cottage. So look, it's 317 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 1: not It doesn't look like Monicello or a mountain Vernon 318 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 1: or Hyde Park, but you know it has it has status. 319 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:23,439 Speaker 1: It's got the plaque, so that's a big deal. The 320 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 1: plaque I'm referring to designates this modest domicile a National 321 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 1: Historic Landmark. New York State gave this property to Pain 322 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 1: after the American Revolution in gratitude for his service to 323 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: the country. Today it's playing host to a colonial fair, 324 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 1: ready company to the front watch, and some folks are 325 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 1: taking the theme very seriously. You marked slow in cadence, 326 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: and you keep the line dressed. You can look to 327 00:20:57,160 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 1: your left of your eye, but don't move your heads. 328 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 1: That's not allowed. You knows a little about the American Revolution. 329 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:06,720 Speaker 1: What do you know about the American Revolution? I'm obsessed 330 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:10,439 Speaker 1: with it. Obsessed. Well, then surely these two young historians 331 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 1: know something about our episodes undersung Founding Father? So, um, 332 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:19,440 Speaker 1: what do you know about Thomas Paine? He wrote common Sense? 333 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 1: What else did he do? He lived in that house 334 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 1: over there? Is he a founding father? No? Why not? 335 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:31,679 Speaker 1: M that? I don't really know, Okay, but you just 336 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 1: know that he's not abounding father? Now, who is a 337 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 1: founding father? Alexander Hamilton's heart. If there was a big 338 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 1: if there was a musical about Thomas Paine, then maybe 339 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:46,719 Speaker 1: maybe you'd think of him as a founding father. Maybe. 340 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 1: Thank you for that insight, Rachel and Aaron. Now back 341 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 1: to post Revolutionary War America, where Thomas Paine is having 342 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 1: a tough time fitting in. That's partly because of his temperament, 343 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:01,639 Speaker 1: but his rains fall in love with their subjects. You 344 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 1: can't fall in love with this guy. He's too difficult. 345 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: He's just too cranky and difficult and nutty. And did 346 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:11,120 Speaker 1: he just have a terrible personality? I think it alternated 347 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 1: because you see him spending time with Jefferson, in time 348 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,160 Speaker 1: with Washington, and time with Franklin. You have all these 349 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 1: wonderful stories about him having wonderful times with all of 350 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: these people, and so there was something very charming about him, 351 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 1: and but then there was this other side to him 352 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:28,640 Speaker 1: that people found repulsive. So it seems to fled back 353 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:32,439 Speaker 1: and forth. Repulsive is a very strong word, but not 354 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:36,439 Speaker 1: as strong as the words John Adams used to describe him. 355 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 1: He called Pain quote a mongrel between pig and puppy 356 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:45,160 Speaker 1: begotten by a wild boar on a bitch wolf. Actually, 357 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 1: it sounds much better when Bill Curtis says it, Bill amongrel, 358 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 1: the twin pig and puppy begotten by a wild boar 359 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: on a bitch wolf. At his core, Thomas Paine is 360 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 1: an agitator and activist, a revolutionary. That's the only setting 361 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:06,360 Speaker 1: he knows. He doesn't know how to turn it off 362 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 1: and talk about soccer or the real Housewives. I mean, 363 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 1: you know, Franklin would have loved dishing about the housewives. 364 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,919 Speaker 1: So while the other founding Fathers shift into statesman mode, 365 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,960 Speaker 1: setting themselves up with cushy government jobs, Pain is still 366 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 1: on the war path, and that war path leads him 367 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:26,919 Speaker 1: straight back to his home country of England, where he 368 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 1: publishes his next book, In the Rights of Man, he 369 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:35,679 Speaker 1: defends the French Revolution and citizen rights just like common 370 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 1: sense The Rights of Man, which Pain dedicates to George Washington, 371 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 1: becomes an instant best seller. Whatever is my right as 372 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:48,159 Speaker 1: a man is also the right of another, and it 373 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:52,920 Speaker 1: becomes my duty to guarantee as well as to possess. 374 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 1: While The Rights of Man does Boffo Box Office, becoming 375 00:23:57,119 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 1: one of the most widely read books of its day, 376 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,520 Speaker 1: it doesn't go over so well with the London critics. 377 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 1: It's an attack on the monarchy, and the British accused 378 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:08,439 Speaker 1: him of treason and he has to leave town, and 379 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:13,200 Speaker 1: he gets out just in time. He's tried in absentia. 380 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: Pain heads to France for he tries to keep his head. 381 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 1: He goes to France to take part in the French Revolution. 382 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 1: He's actually elected to the National Assembly of Francis French legislator, 383 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 1: even though he can't speak French. Pain is on the 384 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 1: side of the revolutionaries who have deposed King Louis Sixte. 385 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 1: But Pain is also anti capital punishment and the more 386 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:42,680 Speaker 1: extreme revolutionaries, also known as the Jacobins and led by Robespierre, 387 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 1: are crazy about their guillotine. The nonviolent Pain finds himself 388 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:53,400 Speaker 1: denounced as a counter revolutionary and thrown into prison during 389 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 1: what's known as the Reign of Terror. Surely his whole 390 00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:00,119 Speaker 1: friends back across the pond can help him out, but 391 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,400 Speaker 1: the American government does nothing to help him get out. 392 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: And Jefferson could have Washington cult half. No one lifts 393 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:10,360 Speaker 1: a finger because they've sort of had enough of him. 394 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,160 Speaker 1: The American ambassador to France, the even less well known 395 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 1: founding father, Governor Morris, who I should point out was 396 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:21,560 Speaker 1: never governor of anything, doesn't do Jacques to help Pain. 397 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 1: Pain gets so fed up he does the unthinkable. He 398 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 1: writes a widely published letter trashing George Washington and as 399 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:35,400 Speaker 1: to you, sir, treacher is in private friendship for so 400 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 1: you have been to me, and that in the day 401 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:42,480 Speaker 1: of danger, and a hypocrite in public life, the world 402 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 1: will be puzzled to decide whether you are an apostate 403 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:51,400 Speaker 1: or an impostor whether you have abandoned good principles or 404 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 1: whether you ever had any. I mean, where does this spleen, 405 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,720 Speaker 1: this anger come from. This comes out of them not 406 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,680 Speaker 1: helping him when he's in Now the reason folks back 407 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,360 Speaker 1: in America weren't helping Pain while he was in that 408 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:08,200 Speaker 1: French prison is partly because of what Pain wrote while 409 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 1: he was in that prison. His most controversial book, The 410 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 1: Age of Reason, its subject religion, My own mind is 411 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:24,400 Speaker 1: my own Church A pretty great line, yes, and pretty inflammatory. 412 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 1: In the Age of Reason, Pain doesn't hold back. He 413 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: refutes the divinity of Christ and says this about organized religion. 414 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:39,359 Speaker 1: All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, 415 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:44,159 Speaker 1: appeared to me no other than human inventions set up 416 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 1: to terrify and enslave mankind and monopolize power and profit. 417 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 1: Publishing The Age of Reason earns Pain a reputation as 418 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:59,919 Speaker 1: an infidel, an atheist, and even an Antichrist. In truth, 419 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 1: Pain's views weren't much different from the other Founding Fathers. 420 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 1: He was a deist, meaning he believed in a supreme 421 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 1: being which created the universe, but which didn't intervene in 422 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,880 Speaker 1: human affairs. But the other Founding Fathers were shrewd enough 423 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:18,639 Speaker 1: not to articulate their views and defend the masses. So 424 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 1: he did actually believe in a God, and he wasn't 425 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 1: really an atheist. But he thought that religion had turned people, 426 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:28,359 Speaker 1: so that's why he decided to attack it. But he 427 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 1: did it in a very sort of crazy way where 428 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 1: no one who was a religious person was going to 429 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 1: read this and say, oh, you're right, I should give 430 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,119 Speaker 1: up religion. So it was just sort of pointless. So 431 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 1: the great persuader sort of becomes the opposite. Well, it 432 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,360 Speaker 1: was a horrible idea because you didn't try to affect 433 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 1: the mass of people, uh and and take away their 434 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 1: belief system. Pain eventually gets out of prison in when, 435 00:27:54,400 --> 00:28:01,359 Speaker 1: in one of history's ironies, Robespierre is himself guillotined. By 436 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:05,399 Speaker 1: the time Pain returns to the United States, he's isolated 437 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,400 Speaker 1: and miserable, a shell of the man who had helped 438 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:13,240 Speaker 1: inspire the creation of this very country. He's even denied 439 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 1: the right to vote, the rationale being he's no longer 440 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 1: American after his stint in France. In his final days, 441 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:25,639 Speaker 1: he takes increasing comfort in Brandy the drink, not a 442 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 1: woman named Brandy. We know he was a mean drunk, 443 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 1: for one thing, and we know that he couldn't handle 444 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:33,560 Speaker 1: his alcohol well, and we know that's sort of these 445 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,680 Speaker 1: basic only from what other people have said that they 446 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 1: found him drunk on the street, and they found him 447 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 1: in these situations. He has a big nose and he 448 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,320 Speaker 1: had rosatia, so frequently it's red or is it like, 449 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 1: is it like a gin blossom from drinking? Well it 450 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 1: looks like that, but but it's like, yes, exactly. He's 451 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 1: like so not taking care of himself. His toe nails 452 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 1: are like claws. They're like grown up into claus talents. 453 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 1: Yet those whole cartoons of magpies on the power lines 454 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 1: tonails curled around forget what their names, yea, Heckel and Jacky. 455 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 1: So he's got tonnails like Heckel and Jackal's claws, and 456 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 1: and it's and are they dirty? Oh sure, yeah, no, 457 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 1: he's not taking care of himself and yeah no. It's 458 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 1: just it's very sad. But at the same time it's charted, 459 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 1: you know, you actually see where he alien needs every 460 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 1: single person who might help him. He turns against everyone, 461 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 1: and it's horribly sad. It's not clear how much of 462 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 1: Paine's reputation for drinking was the slanderous work of his enemies, 463 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 1: but one thing is certain. Thomas Paine was uncelebrated when 464 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 1: he died on June eight, eight o nine, in the 465 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 1: New York City neighborhood of Greenwich Village. He was seventy 466 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 1: two years old, so he's taken up to New Rochelle 467 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 1: to be buried, and six people come for the burial, 468 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 1: and his servant woman and her two sons, and someone 469 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 1: who's hired to move the body around and bring the 470 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 1: casket around, and then two neighbors from the area. So 471 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 1: six people show up and and it, I mean, it's pathetic. 472 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 1: Well I would like to give him a proper send off, 473 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 1: and I know just where to do it. Thomas Paine 474 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 1: dropped dead in what's now a legendary piano bar in 475 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 1: the heart of Greenwich Village. The bar was purchased by 476 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:37,760 Speaker 1: a frenchwoman named Marie Dumont back. She wanted to honor 477 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 1: Pain's legacy and the pamphlet series American Crisis, you know, 478 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 1: the one that Washington and his men read for inspiration 479 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 1: during the Revolutionary War, hence the bar's name Marie's Crisis. 480 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 1: You know, Marie's Crisis. Yes, exactly what do you think 481 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 1: of that idea? If we did a memorial for Tom Paine, 482 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 1: a memorial do over at Marie's Crisis, you'd like that? Absolutely, 483 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 1: you would come in, say a few words, deliver a 484 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 1: sort of eulogy. Absolutely terrific. We'll have food, we'll have drink, 485 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 1: what kind of music should we play? You could do 486 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 1: drinking songs from the era, which are very popular. Better yet, 487 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 1: we could sing an original song in our Thomas Payne 488 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 1: memorial do over. And I know just the people who 489 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:33,479 Speaker 1: could write a memorial service show stopper. Hey, it's more okay. 490 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 1: I'm visiting with the brilliant Larry O'Keefe and Nell Benjamin. 491 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 1: They are the ultimate team. They wrote the music and 492 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:45,000 Speaker 1: lyrics for the Broadway musical Legally Blonde. Separately, Nell wrote 493 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 1: the lyrics for Mean Girls and Larry co wrote the 494 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 1: music lyrics in book for Heather's the musical. And they're married. 495 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 1: We've been friends since college. Exciting it's a podcast. They've 496 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: agreed to write a big closing number for our Thomas 497 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 1: Paine memorial do over. Let's get down to brass tacks. 498 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 1: Does anything rhyme with pamphlet? Oh damn? Well, you know, 499 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 1: it depends on how pop and hip hop were going 500 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:14,840 Speaker 1: to go and say, you know, John Adams might say 501 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: that Tom Pain's laid his pamphlet is the biggest scam yet. Yeah, 502 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,760 Speaker 1: and so I intend to slam it. But that's nice. 503 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 1: You know, this does not have to be a somber affair. 504 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 1: I feel like we're looking for something with a little 505 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 1: bit of a popular field. It's hummable, repeatable. We've already 506 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 1: kind of determined we want to sing along that would 507 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,520 Speaker 1: be appropriate for a piano bar. Great, so that means 508 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:42,960 Speaker 1: a certain level of ra ra, a certain level of fun. Okay, 509 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 1: they're going to meet some time to write this song. 510 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 1: In the meantime, I'm going to tell you what happened 511 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 1: to Thomas Paine after he died. You may remember biographer 512 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 1: Craig Nelson mentioning Pain's bones. Well, there's a whole story there. 513 00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 1: Thomas Paine doesn't have a grape site because his body 514 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 1: was taken from his grave. That's author Best love Joy. 515 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,720 Speaker 1: My book is called Rest in Pieces, The Curious Fates 516 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:10,000 Speaker 1: of Famous Corpses. Best writes how an Englishman by the 517 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 1: name of William Cobbett traveled to New Rochelle dawn one 518 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 1: September morning in eighteen nineteen. He dug up Pain's body 519 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,520 Speaker 1: out of the ground and packed it into a trunk 520 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 1: and got on a ship to Liverpool with it. He 521 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 1: planned to build a magnificent monument to Pain, for which 522 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:31,120 Speaker 1: he need money. Cobbett planned a big fundraiser for the 523 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 1: monument he wanted to build um and it ended up 524 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 1: being scheduled for the same day that King George the 525 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 1: Third died, which is just really bad timing scheduling conflicts. Aside, 526 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,080 Speaker 1: it's not like many Brits back then had any interest 527 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,680 Speaker 1: in memorializing Pain. He was still persona on Gratta there. 528 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 1: So Cobbett basically gave up his plans for the monument 529 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,720 Speaker 1: and it basically let Thomas Pain's bones um just kind 530 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 1: of molder in a trunk in a corner of his 531 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 1: house for years. When Cobbett himself dies, the trunk of 532 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:06,520 Speaker 1: moldering bones goes on a seemingly endless journey, first to 533 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:09,839 Speaker 1: a neighbor, then to a tailor. They next fall into 534 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,920 Speaker 1: the hands of a radical publisher, but at that point 535 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 1: the trail grows not exactly cold, but pretty murky and complicated. 536 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,399 Speaker 1: Other people claimed to have some of the bones. One 537 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,240 Speaker 1: fan apparently found a piece of his brain and returned 538 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:27,080 Speaker 1: it to New Rochelle, And there's a rumor that Pain's 539 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:29,719 Speaker 1: brain is actually inside a monument on the grounds and 540 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:31,960 Speaker 1: like a hollow portion of the bus, but no one's 541 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:34,719 Speaker 1: really sure where on the farm. It is um and 542 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,719 Speaker 1: then throughout the twenty century, bits of Thomas pain were 543 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:41,280 Speaker 1: reported all over Europe and other parts of the world. 544 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:43,680 Speaker 1: There's a rumor that parts of the bones were made 545 00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:46,240 Speaker 1: into buttons, but we don't have a lot of detail 546 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:49,480 Speaker 1: about that. Pain's bones were crisped for the mill when 547 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:51,560 Speaker 1: I was meeting with Larry. And now there are rumors 548 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:52,919 Speaker 1: of a leg bone in the ball in the wall 549 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:56,000 Speaker 1: of a tavern in England, and it's probable that the 550 00:34:56,040 --> 00:35:00,239 Speaker 1: skull has been located in Wales, but it's now in Australia. Ring. 551 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:04,400 Speaker 1: I'm hearing the phrase where my bones at? I'm hearing 552 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:07,279 Speaker 1: that where my bones from the front to back? Now 553 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:10,000 Speaker 1: as you feeling that, Oh my god, where my bones at? 554 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:14,399 Speaker 1: Pains remains Pain's remain And he does remain, doesn't he? 555 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:27,080 Speaker 1: He does? Finally, the Happy Day arrives our Thomas Paine 556 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:31,480 Speaker 1: Memorial do over at Marie's Crisis. Hey, everybody, welcome. So 557 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:33,839 Speaker 1: sad that you're all here. Uh, just sit tight out 558 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 1: here for a few more minutes. We'll start letting you 559 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:38,000 Speaker 1: in just a few minutes or so. Sound good mourners 560 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 1: line up outside. I have a lot of friends that 561 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:43,359 Speaker 1: have performed here before, but I just I don't really 562 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:47,680 Speaker 1: know the significance. I guess at the front entrance there's 563 00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:51,719 Speaker 1: a memorial plaque, says Thomas Paine. So there's a picture 564 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,840 Speaker 1: of Thomas Paine, and oh, he died on this site. 565 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:57,480 Speaker 1: This young man is about to learn a lot more. 566 00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:01,759 Speaker 1: Good afternoon. I'm Mo Rocca, and welcome to Marie's Crisis 567 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:08,120 Speaker 1: two and ten years ago, where we convene Thomas Paine died. 568 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:13,879 Speaker 1: His obituary read in part he had lived long, done 569 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:20,040 Speaker 1: some good and much harm. That's just not the way 570 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:23,279 Speaker 1: to treat a founding father. And so we gather here 571 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:28,360 Speaker 1: today for a Thomas Paine memorial do over. Please welcome 572 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:36,359 Speaker 1: pain biographer Craig Nelson there. You know, I really I'm 573 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:38,879 Speaker 1: happy to be invited because there were six people at 574 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:41,360 Speaker 1: his funeral, and I guess there's like fifteen here today. 575 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:45,760 Speaker 1: So yeah, it's marking. It's working as promised. Craig Nelson 576 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:49,960 Speaker 1: delivers the eulogy. Thomas Paine's comment sense just beginning by 577 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:53,000 Speaker 1: asking a couple of questions, why should a continent be 578 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,759 Speaker 1: ruled by an island? And why should the leader of 579 00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,440 Speaker 1: our government be the child of the person who had 580 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 1: the job for him. And it ended with we have 581 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,600 Speaker 1: it in our power to begin the world over again. 582 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:08,640 Speaker 1: The crowd is riveted, especially when Craig starts talking about 583 00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:11,879 Speaker 1: Thomas Paine's bones. So right now, at this moment, there's 584 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:14,799 Speaker 1: a man on his deathbed and he's saying, and to you, 585 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:18,320 Speaker 1: my darling daughter, I bequeathed that tibia of the immortal 586 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:23,719 Speaker 1: top is very got. Craig, your energy like it's amazing. 587 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:30,600 Speaker 1: Don't ever do cocaine. Now. If we were doing this 588 00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:33,200 Speaker 1: back in eighteen o nine, we might have thought to 589 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:36,600 Speaker 1: bring a mutton roast, but instead we brought a comedian, 590 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:40,600 Speaker 1: one of the very best, to roast pain, my buddy 591 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,719 Speaker 1: from the Daily Show. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome my 592 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:51,360 Speaker 1: friend Louis Black. I never really thought that my career 593 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:57,120 Speaker 1: would lead me to this moment. I really expected much 594 00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:00,439 Speaker 1: more of myself than than to be roasting and dead man. 595 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:03,879 Speaker 1: But that's the way it is. What is it with pamphlets? 596 00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:07,719 Speaker 1: You know what else? They called pamphlet writers? They call 597 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:11,759 Speaker 1: them lazy. Couldn't write more than twenty pages. I guess 598 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,239 Speaker 1: Thomas Paine couldn't write all the time he needed to 599 00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:17,080 Speaker 1: save time for sleeping and drinking and annoying the shoot 600 00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:21,600 Speaker 1: out of people at parties. So now Pain isn't exactly 601 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:24,600 Speaker 1: remembered his a legend. I mean Ronald Reagan beat the 602 00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,440 Speaker 1: Soviets and got an airport in d C named after him. 603 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:30,959 Speaker 1: What do you get a gay bar in the west 604 00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:36,320 Speaker 1: village named Amter? Did you feel that that was Thomas 605 00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:40,160 Speaker 1: Paine rolling around his grave? Oh wait, that's right. They 606 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:46,319 Speaker 1: stole this bone. People eight people drank and then it 607 00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,520 Speaker 1: was time for the finale. And now we end our 608 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:54,880 Speaker 1: Thomas Paine Memorial redo with what else? A production number 609 00:38:54,880 --> 00:39:05,920 Speaker 1: written by Nell Benjamin and Laurence o'keith, both tarmist head 610 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:12,080 Speaker 1: Thomas b Fase your glass animals try to stay by 611 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:20,720 Speaker 1: every Americantic and Jane should drink to Thomas Young Tom 612 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:24,480 Speaker 1: wrote that all kings are tyrants and King George is 613 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:28,640 Speaker 1: a stupid brutish man, laid the world in ashes and 614 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,680 Speaker 1: screw to all kings and fascists. Time to kick them out, 615 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:40,319 Speaker 1: morn as we can to stay Thomas. His consense was 616 00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:44,360 Speaker 1: on the chain. He declared, we to build the world 617 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:52,160 Speaker 1: game with to Thomas chain, so our founding fathers King 618 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:56,160 Speaker 1: to power but poor Tom could never rise at high. 619 00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:59,920 Speaker 1: He was brute and melancholic and a world class out 620 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:05,680 Speaker 1: a whole weren't an extra time, said by old Thomas 621 00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:13,040 Speaker 1: Stain Thomas Pain. Why Andy Stay his name always Hunt 622 00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:21,160 Speaker 1: keeping dragas to his name, the drink everyone. And then 623 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:25,600 Speaker 1: the French began that revolution. They said Tommy's cunning head 624 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:29,080 Speaker 1: was keeping killed. But Tom said, don't kill your kings. 625 00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:32,080 Speaker 1: French replied, are you kidding the britt for right? You 626 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:39,279 Speaker 1: are a rocomis you? Old Thomas Stay Thomas Day? But 627 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:43,920 Speaker 1: the course his kids wasn't man, but the sleamishness and 628 00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:53,120 Speaker 1: our friendsness thing stay drink saggling. Thomas died and his 629 00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:57,279 Speaker 1: bones were sold and scattered, but he lives in us 630 00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:02,400 Speaker 1: to this very day. Both his love of liberty and 631 00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:07,319 Speaker 1: his weird misanthropy are part tired in our nation. Spy, 632 00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:17,120 Speaker 1: Oh Thomas Day, Thomas Thomas Pay, Such shame. After Painting 633 00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:21,279 Speaker 1: went down the drains tonight. We shall sing your name, 634 00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:29,200 Speaker 1: little dame to drink too, Thomas Thomas Thomas Day, such 635 00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:32,880 Speaker 1: a shame. After Pay went down the drains to night, 636 00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:37,480 Speaker 1: we shall sing your name day we drink to Thomas 637 00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:42,040 Speaker 1: Space brilliance once it's timeer changing noble to come point. 638 00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:46,200 Speaker 1: I'm ratings on Thomer one, frustrating and hard though Day, 639 00:41:47,080 --> 00:42:05,040 Speaker 1: Thomas Day, Thomas Painting, Thomas Thomas Bay Next time on Mobituaries, 640 00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:11,800 Speaker 1: the pioneering Black Congressman of Reconstruction. Reconstruction is a moment 641 00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:16,520 Speaker 1: of incredible hopefulness. When Frederick Douglas saw the portrait of 642 00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:19,920 Speaker 1: Hiram Revels, he said, at last the black man has 643 00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:24,200 Speaker 1: represented something other than a monkey. I certainly hope you 644 00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:27,800 Speaker 1: enjoyed this mobituary. If you would please rate and review 645 00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:32,640 Speaker 1: our podcast. You can also follow Mobituaries on Facebook and Instagram, 646 00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:35,000 Speaker 1: and you can follow me on Twitter at mo Rocca. 647 00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:39,440 Speaker 1: For more great content about Thomas Payne, please visit mobituaries 648 00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:43,040 Speaker 1: dot com. You can subscribe to Mobituaries wherever you get 649 00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:48,280 Speaker 1: your podcasts. This episode of Mobituaries was produced by Gideon 650 00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:52,400 Speaker 1: Evans and Megan Marcus. Our team of producers also includes 651 00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:57,120 Speaker 1: Harry Wood and me Morocca. It was edited by Meg 652 00:42:57,239 --> 00:43:00,640 Speaker 1: Dalton and engineered by Dan de Zula and r. Kentry. 653 00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:05,520 Speaker 1: Additional editing by Sam Egan and David Fox. Special thanks 654 00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:09,360 Speaker 1: to the great Bill Curtis Donna La Pietra, Meghan Dietree, 655 00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:13,799 Speaker 1: Michael Crowder, Noura Slanimski, Randy Taylor, and the owners of 656 00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:18,920 Speaker 1: Marie's Crisis, Howard Bragman, John May, Paul Miles, Don Ralph, 657 00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:24,120 Speaker 1: Lawrence o'flahaven, Emma Cortland, Mindy Eisenberg's Dark, the Thomas Paine 658 00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:29,400 Speaker 1: Cottage and all Wise Meterary indispensable support from Genie Staneski, 659 00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:34,279 Speaker 1: Richard Rohrer and everyone at CBS news Radio. The show 660 00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:38,400 Speaker 1: stopper Drink to Thomas Payne was composed by Lawrence o'keith 661 00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:41,880 Speaker 1: and Nell Benjamin. Our knock Um Dead. Cast of singers 662 00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:47,040 Speaker 1: and musicians included Jane Bernard, Matthew Silva, Rachel Flynn, Brook Kintana, 663 00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:51,160 Speaker 1: and Jacob Reinstra. Our theme music is written by Daniel 664 00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:55,120 Speaker 1: Hart and, as always, undying thanks to Rand Morrison and 665 00:43:55,280 --> 00:44:00,480 Speaker 1: John carp without whom Mobituaries couldn't live. We view now 666 00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:04,760 Speaker 1: with more of Bill Curtis as John Adams insulting Thomas Payne. 667 00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:12,920 Speaker 1: All Right, Okay, a mongrel between pig and puppy begotten 668 00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:18,000 Speaker 1: by a wild boar on a bitch wolf amongrel between 669 00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:21,640 Speaker 1: pig and puppy begotten by a wild boar on a 670 00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:28,160 Speaker 1: bitch wolf. A mongrel between pig and puppy begotten by 671 00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:38,520 Speaker 1: a wild boar on a bitch wolf. Hi, it's mo 672 00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:42,920 Speaker 1: If you're enjoying Mobituaries the podcast, may I invite you 673 00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:46,880 Speaker 1: to check out Mobituaries the book. It's chock full of 674 00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:51,040 Speaker 1: stories not in the podcast. Celebrities who put their butts 675 00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:53,960 Speaker 1: on the line, sports teams that threw in the towel 676 00:44:54,000 --> 00:45:00,520 Speaker 1: for good, forgotten fashions, defunct diagnoses presidential candidacies that crater whole, 677 00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:04,879 Speaker 1: countries that want to put and dragons, Yes, dragons, you see. 678 00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:08,200 Speaker 1: People used to believe the dragons were real until just 679 00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:11,200 Speaker 1: get the book. You can order Mobituaries the Book from 680 00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:15,080 Speaker 1: any online bookseller, or stop by your local bookstore and 681 00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:17,480 Speaker 1: look for me when I come to your city. Tour 682 00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:24,640 Speaker 1: information and lots more at mobituaries dot com