1 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 1: Hey, hey, it's that time again. What are we talking 2 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: about today? It's time to talk about particle names, my 3 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:18,760 Speaker 1: favorite subject. Hey, don't blame me. There are a lot 4 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:21,320 Speaker 1: of particles out there. All right, let's do it, Daniel. Well, 5 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: today's game is I'm gonna give you a word and 6 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: you have to guess whether it's the name of a 7 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: fundamental particle or the name of a character in the Transformers. 8 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 1: All right, I'm ready to me alright, first one, Megatron, 9 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: that one down to give me. That's definitely a Transformer. 10 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: All right, that was the warm up. How about Galvatron. 11 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: I'm gonna go with particle alright, Computron, I'm gonna go 12 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 1: with the Transformer or eighties computer company? Alright. Last one 13 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 1: is tripp to con That sounds more like a convention 14 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 1: for pleasant nerds. Hey, I want to go to that. 15 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:04,760 Speaker 1: That sounds awesome. Yeah, alright, Which ones are particles and 16 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: which ones are Transformers? All right? It was a bit 17 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 1: of a trick question. They were all names of Transformers. 18 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:14,399 Speaker 1: What I had to do a bit of deep research. 19 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: But those are actual Transformer character names. Oh man, you 20 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: got me, all right, but you have to promise me 21 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: if you ever discover a particle Daniel at the large 22 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: Headron collider. You have to name it Mega Tromp done. 23 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:47,319 Speaker 1: Hi am Jorge. I'm a cartoonists and the creator of 24 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 1: PhD comics. Hi I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist, a 25 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 1: closet transformer geek, and definitely a nerd. And Welcome to 26 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 1: our podcast. Daniel and Jorge explain eighties toy franchises. No, 27 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: I mean Daniel and Orge explained the universe a production 28 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: of My Heart Radio. I Heart Radio is going to 29 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 1: get sued now by mattel or whoever puts out the transformers. 30 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 1: This is the first domino, isn't it the beginning of 31 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 1: the downfall of the podcast? Um? But welcome to our podcast, 32 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 1: in which we take crazy, amazing things that blow your 33 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:20,080 Speaker 1: mind and try to relate them to silly, fun easily 34 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:24,079 Speaker 1: understandable things like robots that turn into cars or airplanes 35 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: or you know, dinosaurs. Television transforms are very versatile. I 36 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 1: never understood the dinosaur thing, Like, you're already a killer robot. 37 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: What's the advantage of transforming into a dinosaur? Like? Seriously, 38 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 1: I mean, think about this robot versus dinosaur. Who wins 39 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: robot every time, right, I think they're just trying to 40 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:45,519 Speaker 1: blend in with the other dinosaurs. All these are prehistoric transformers, 41 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 1: robots in disguise. So if transformers had come to Earth 42 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 1: before the dinosaurs, wouldy have transformed into like insects and 43 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:54,639 Speaker 1: like trilobytes and stuff like that. They did, they there's 44 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 1: this transformer for everything. But anyways, welcome to a podcast 45 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 1: in which we talk about all the things in universe, 46 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 1: the big ones, the small ones, the ones that maybe 47 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 1: don't even exist. That's right, and we love delving into 48 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:10,639 Speaker 1: these theoretical hypothetical topics, and so today we're going to 49 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: talk about a very interesting concept, right Daniel, which is 50 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 1: something that maybe in your everyday life, affecting you on 51 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 1: a daily, every second of your life basis um, but 52 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 1: which physicists don't even know if it exists or not. 53 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: That's right. This relates to something you experience every day, 54 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 1: but physics still doesn't really understand that kind of thing, 55 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 1: which in two hundred years people will look back and say, man, 56 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 1: I wish I had had those ideas. I totally would 57 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 1: have gotten the Nobel Prize. The puzzle was right there 58 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 1: in front of them and it's something that I think 59 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: you've told me this before that if it exists, it 60 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 1: may totally upend all of our theories about physics, right, 61 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 1: that's right. One of the challenges with this kind of 62 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 1: idea is that we don't even really know how to 63 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: form the idea, Like the idea itself has problems, not 64 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 1: to mention whether or not it exists, but we can't 65 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 1: even really seem to get it to behave its on 66 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 1: the page, so to the On the podcast, we'll be 67 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 1: talking about the graviton. What is the graviton? Is it 68 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:18,280 Speaker 1: a transformer for a transformer? Is it a particle? Is it? 69 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:21,359 Speaker 1: And how is it pronounced? Really? Is it graviton or 70 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 1: is it gravyton? Or yeah? What kind of transformer would 71 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 1: the gravyton be? Shoot streams of hot gravy at you 72 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 1: or something transformed into a gravy bowl? Oh? Man, so 73 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 1: terrifying grav versus turkey tron, based, the based or based 74 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 1: or bot. No, but it's a funny name. And you know, 75 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:48,160 Speaker 1: you are often a critic of physics naming, and so 76 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 1: you know, if the folks have done a good job 77 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 1: in this case, then the name should be pretty clear, right, 78 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: that's your mattress, name something in a clear way, so 79 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 1: not knowing anything about it, just knowing the name. What 80 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:02,839 Speaker 1: do you imagine the A baton means the gravytan um 81 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 1: you has something to do with graves or I imagine 82 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 1: it has something to do with gravity, like a gravity thing. 83 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:12,360 Speaker 1: I like how you first went for gravy, second went 84 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:16,280 Speaker 1: for graves, and only third on the Physics podcast considered 85 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 1: we might be talking about gravity. So yeah, it's a 86 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:23,160 Speaker 1: particle related to gravity right now? Yeah, exactly, and we'll 87 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:26,119 Speaker 1: be talking exactly about what that means. And we've touched 88 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:28,279 Speaker 1: on this a few times, but this is the scenario 89 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:32,479 Speaker 1: where a particle exists theoretically and it's already been given 90 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 1: a name before it's discovered. If some particles we find them, 91 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 1: then we argue about how to name it. Right, some 92 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 1: particles are named before they're discovered, like we have the 93 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 1: idea for them, and then we go ahead and find it. 94 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:47,839 Speaker 1: We already know what to call it, like the Higgs boson. 95 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:50,839 Speaker 1: So let's say your physicist and you think of something 96 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:53,919 Speaker 1: on the on your notepad, or you find something. Do 97 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 1: you think most physicists have sort of a pre name 98 00:05:57,600 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: in their minds when they're looking for these things, or 99 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:02,039 Speaker 1: even if they're I don't think they're looking for these things. 100 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 1: I don't know. Um, but I haven't noticed recently there 101 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:07,600 Speaker 1: are a lot more names being given to ideas. I 102 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 1: think this is, you know, young people coming up and 103 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 1: recognizing the value of branding, and so every sort of 104 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: new idea that something that comes up with has like 105 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:19,720 Speaker 1: a slick sounding name that's associated with it so that 106 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 1: it sticks in people's heads. It's not just some complicated 107 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 1: new idea, you know, it's it's it's got some branding 108 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 1: to it. Cool. Um, But of course I've already thought 109 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 1: about the name of a particle I would discover. Oh yeah, 110 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 1: I mean my last name ends with S O N. 111 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:36,040 Speaker 1: So it's very clearly I got to call it the 112 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 1: White Song. I know, you would have to call it 113 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:45,479 Speaker 1: the whites some ton. That sounds like some complicated Icelandic person. Cool. 114 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 1: So today we'll be talking about what is the graviton 115 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 1: and does it exist? And what does it mean if 116 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:54,360 Speaker 1: we ever actually find this particle? Right, and how would 117 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: we look for it and what would it mean? Yeah, 118 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 1: so it sounds like something either out of a Transformers 119 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 1: movie or some thing out of a physics textbook. But 120 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 1: we were wondering, as usual, how many people out there 121 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 1: know what a graviton is. So I walked around wherever 122 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: I was in the world, and I asked people what 123 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: they knew about the graviton. Could they explain it? Did 124 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: they have any idea? Had they heard it before? Did 125 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 1: they play with one when they were a kid. So 126 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: before you listen to these, think about it for a second. 127 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 1: If you were approached by a physicist at an airport 128 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 1: in London, what would you answer to the question what 129 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: is a graviton? Here? It's what people had to say. 130 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 1: I heard of it, but I don't know it. It's problem. 131 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: But you know grav with you? Yeah, okay, I heard 132 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 1: about gravity, but I don't I've ever heard about a 133 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 1: material like graviton. No. Gravitons, Yes, they're the theoretical particle 134 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 1: that is used to describe gravitate gravity's effects something gravitron 135 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 1: grabt oh because the two were in distinction to me. 136 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: All Right, I like these answers. There's some creative ones there. Um, 137 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 1: there's one that I don't really understand. Like there's a 138 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 1: guy talking about the gravittron. What is a gravitron. I 139 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 1: don't even know. He was confused. He was like, wait 140 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 1: a minute, do you mean the graviton or the gravittron. 141 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 1: I know, but he's referring to something he's familiar with 142 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 1: called the gravitron, and I don't even know what that is. 143 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 1: Like it sounds like a machine he can use to 144 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 1: control gravity or something, you know, the gravitonator. You know, 145 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 1: it does sound kind of more physical, See, doesn't it 146 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 1: gravitron like like that, Like it's a machine that makes 147 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 1: hypes and it's hissing and you know, the steam coming 148 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 1: out the side of it or whatever. It's like a 149 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 1: steampunk gravity accelerator. All right, Well, before I feel like 150 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 1: we people feel like we're making fun of our listeners. Um, 151 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:48,199 Speaker 1: I have to admit that I didn't know what a 152 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 1: graviton was until basically I started talking to you only 153 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: a few years ago. Oh yeah. If I had asked 154 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:56,319 Speaker 1: you a few years ago, you might have said it 155 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 1: was some like new sleep kitchen appliance or something, and 156 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: said I would have said it was a transformer problem. 157 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 1: Most likely, it's probably the transformer. Guys were bummed if 158 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 1: they can't name a transformer the graviton because the name 159 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 1: is taking my physics. Oh, I don't think that's ever 160 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 1: stopped toy companies, you know, Hold on, are you saying 161 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 1: that these big toy companies don't have a particle physicist 162 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 1: like on retainer for consulting. I would be surprised if 163 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: they had a roboticist in their robotic robot department there. 164 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:30,599 Speaker 1: Do you have robotic criticisms of the science behind transformers, 165 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:33,079 Speaker 1: like no, that joint would work differently, or it should 166 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 1: fold in this other way or something. You know, you 167 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 1: have a pet pis about movies that feature physics. That's 168 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 1: that's how robodies. This feel about every movie or anything 169 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 1: that has robots in it. Wow, well I never even like, what, 170 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 1: how could that possibly have the right you know, energy 171 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 1: density output? You need a different kind of cable for that. 172 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:58,559 Speaker 1: Come on, people, But all good answers and all all 173 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 1: good um ways to look at the universe. Yeah, and 174 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 1: as usual, I'm grateful to those random folks out there 175 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 1: who are totally willing to talk to a scruffy looking 176 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:11,080 Speaker 1: scientist about strange, random science questions. So kudos to anybody 177 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 1: out there who's willing to answer science questions with no googling. 178 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 1: That's right, I certainly would run away from you as 179 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 1: fast as I could. Don't say hypothetical like that's happened. Well, 180 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 1: this is a perfect point to take a break. Well, 181 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: let's let's get into it. Daniel, step us through here. 182 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: What is a graviton? Like, if if you had to 183 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 1: name it in one sentence, what would it be a graviton? Basically, 184 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 1: if you have to describe it in one sentence, what 185 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 1: would that sentence be? How long can this sentence be? 186 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:51,680 Speaker 1: And I just keep going on and on like James 187 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 1: Joy's class one class or maybe two classes. But you know, 188 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: all right, Um, A graviton is the particle that trend 189 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 1: smits gravity. In theory, if there is a particle that 190 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:08,559 Speaker 1: transmits gravity, so the force of gravity, the idea is 191 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:12,839 Speaker 1: that it transmits its force. It's forcing us, I guess, 192 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:16,439 Speaker 1: through a particle. And if that exists, that particles called 193 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 1: the graviton. Exactly, that's the idea. And you can imagine, 194 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 1: like you know, gravitational fields have to somehow transmit information 195 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 1: like if the sun disappeared, right then we wouldn't feel 196 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:32,679 Speaker 1: the fact that the sun has disappeared until that information 197 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:36,960 Speaker 1: gets to us. Right, gravitational fields are not instantaneous. Otherwise 198 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:39,719 Speaker 1: you could build a machine to send information fast in 199 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:43,080 Speaker 1: the speed of light by wiggling rocks or something. Okay, 200 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: so forces are not instantaneous. Yeah, and so sometimes it 201 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 1: would have been weird, doesn't it get from the Sun 202 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 1: to the Earth. So like the I know, the light 203 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:54,560 Speaker 1: has to travel at the speed of light, but you're saying, 204 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 1: like even the force between two magnets has to travel 205 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:00,959 Speaker 1: at the speed of light. Yeah. Nothing, No information at 206 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 1: all can travel faster than the speed of light. And 207 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 1: then includes information about fields fields that generate forces like 208 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:10,559 Speaker 1: gravitational field or magnetic fields or something. Right. In fact, 209 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 1: that's the way you make light. You can like wiggle 210 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 1: charged particles and they will make light. They will shoot 211 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 1: off photons. All right, So a granton is the particle 212 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 1: that transmits the force of gravity. Uh yeah, And and 213 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:27,559 Speaker 1: is that weird that a force is transmitted by a particle. 214 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 1: It's not weird at all. In fact, it's sort of 215 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:33,960 Speaker 1: a natural concept because every other force that we've ever 216 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: seen has a particle associated with it, the particle that 217 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:42,560 Speaker 1: transmits the information for that force, like electromagnetism has photons right. Well, 218 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 1: the other forces, like the weak nuclear force, it has 219 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 1: three particles to do its bidding, the W plus, the 220 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:52,559 Speaker 1: W minus, and the Z. The strong nuclear force has 221 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 1: the gluon. Actually there's eight of them, right, And so 222 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:58,680 Speaker 1: we have these forces electromagnetism, the weak force, and the 223 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 1: strong force, and for those we have good quantum theories. 224 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 1: Those quantum theories describe these particles that transmit the information. 225 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:09,080 Speaker 1: So now we have gravity. We're like, well, cong gravity, 226 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: do the same thing, like, how does gravity transmit its 227 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 1: force or its power? Exactly? That's the question is how 228 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 1: is information transmitted for gravity? Right? In Newton's theory. Newton's 229 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 1: original theory, he thought it was instantaneous, right. He thought 230 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 1: if the Sun disappeared or went away or was wiggled, 231 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 1: that we would feel that instantly. Right. But this was 232 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 1: before the advent of relativity. At the instant that Sun disappeared, 233 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 1: the Earth would start to crean out of control and 234 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: shoot out into space. That's right, that's Newton's idea. Then 235 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 1: Einstein comes along and he gives us general relativity and 236 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 1: special relativity, and that tells us that information cannot be 237 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:51,199 Speaker 1: transmitted faster than the speed of light, right, And so if, 238 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 1: for example, you change a gravitational field right, then that 239 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 1: information propagates through the gravitational field right at the speed 240 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 1: of light like a shock wave. Kind of exactly like 241 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: a shock wave. But here's the thing. What we're talking about, right, 242 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:09,959 Speaker 1: there is a gravitational wave. Right. Like if you turn 243 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: on a flashlight and you send out a beam of light, 244 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 1: then you're sending out electromagnetic waves. Right. If you wiggle 245 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 1: the sun, you can wiggle a black hole, then you're 246 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 1: gonna make gravitational waves. Those are not the same thing 247 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 1: as a graviton. They're not They're not. No, a graviton 248 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 1: is two gravitational waves what photons are to a beam 249 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 1: of light. I remember that general relativity describes the universe 250 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 1: really really well. But we think that the universe is 251 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 1: quantum mechanical. We think for the universe is is made 252 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 1: up of little bits. And in the same way that 253 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 1: a beam of light turns out to be made up 254 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: of tiny little photons. The idea is maybe gravity and 255 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 1: gravitational waves are made up of tiny little gravitons. It 256 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 1: sounds like the days that, like, right now, I'm sitting 257 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 1: here in my studio and I'm being pulled down owned 258 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 1: by gravity towards the center of the Earth. And you're 259 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 1: saying that that somehow, being like, somehow the Earth is 260 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: shooting gravitons at me, or it's or I'm shooting gravitons 261 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: at the Earth. But what does that mean for for me, Daniel, 262 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: for my universe? I think the important thing to think 263 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 1: about is how fields change. So the Earth. If the 264 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 1: Earth is not moving right relative to you, then you 265 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 1: have a constant gravitational field and so there are no 266 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 1: gravitational waves being propagated there and um, so you don't 267 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 1: need to build it out of any gravitons. But if 268 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: the Earth changes, right, then that information comes as a 269 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 1: gravitational wave, which is built out of gravitons. I see, so, 270 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 1: and then if I see, if I stand up, you're saying, 271 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 1: then there's some gravitons exchange between my my, my behind 272 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 1: and the center of the Earth. I really wanted to 273 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 1: get through a whole podcast without talking about your behind, 274 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 1: but all right, let's do it. Yes, exactly, because remember 275 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 1: that the Earth is pulling on you, right, and you 276 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 1: are also pulling on the Earth with the same force. Right. Um. 277 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 1: One way I heard somebody say, cleverly, is that like, 278 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 1: on the surface of the Earth, you weigh I don't 279 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 1: know what a hundred fifty pounds, right, but on the 280 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 1: surface of the of Jorge, the Earth weighs a hundred 281 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 1: and fifty pounds. There's a force of attraction between you 282 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: and the Earth, and anytime that changes, you're gonna need 283 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 1: gravitational little gravitational waves made out of even smaller gravitons. 284 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 1: And the whole idea is just an extrapolation from the 285 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 1: other fields. Right. We see that it happens for electromagnetism, 286 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 1: We see that it happens for the weak force and 287 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 1: the strong force, and so we like patterns. We'd like 288 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 1: to say, maybe this is really a deep thing and 289 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 1: if it. If so, why doesn't it also apply to gravity? Okay, 290 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 1: so if I stand up, then are there gravitons exchanged 291 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 1: between me and the Earth? Is that kind of what 292 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: you're saying, is like it's about the changes in the 293 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: gravitational fields. Yeah, exactly. Um, information about the gravitational field 294 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 1: can be conveyed, and we think that it's probably made up, 295 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 1: but it's sort of the microscopic level of gravitons, right, 296 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:05,920 Speaker 1: They are the basic quanta the same way that we 297 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 1: you know, we think that light. We know that light 298 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 1: is made out of tiny little bits we call photons. Right. 299 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: We think that all gravitational information is built out of 300 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 1: tiny little bits called gravitons. But of course we've never 301 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 1: seen them. It's just theoretical. It's it's purely a concept 302 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:24,400 Speaker 1: extrapolated from other examples, right, because I think a lot 303 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 1: of people maybe forget that it's not just light that's 304 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 1: made out of photons. It's just it's the electromagnetic force itself, right, 305 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: like between two magnets when you're when they're pulling or 306 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 1: pushing each other, they're shooting each other with photons, right 307 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: in some ways, yeah, exactly. And remember a photon is 308 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:45,120 Speaker 1: just like a ripple in some quantum field. These days, 309 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 1: we don't think about the basic thing in the universe 310 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:49,960 Speaker 1: is being particles. Right. You probably have an image in 311 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 1: your mind of like two particles pushing each other by 312 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:55,120 Speaker 1: shooting them each other with little laser guns or something. Right, 313 00:17:55,640 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 1: instead think about paint pong balls. Maybe this is microscopic, right, 314 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:04,440 Speaker 1: So instead think about like two particles on our waterbed, right, 315 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 1: and every time one of the moves it affects the 316 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,440 Speaker 1: other one. That's like it ripples over to the other one. 317 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 1: And those ripples are ripples in the photonic quantum field, right, 318 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 1: and those are what we call photons. We reimagine these 319 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:22,200 Speaker 1: particles as ripples in these sort of base, more base objects, 320 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:25,679 Speaker 1: these deeper and more fundamental objects called quantum fields. And 321 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:28,200 Speaker 1: a big part of the theory is that these ripples 322 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 1: have a minimum size, right, Like, you can't have an 323 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:34,200 Speaker 1: infinitely small ripple. At some point they sort of like 324 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 1: become chunky too, like exactly. Then that's where Einstein, you 325 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:41,400 Speaker 1: sort of ran up against the wall. Right. Einstein correctly 326 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 1: predicts that gravity takes time to propagate. For example, his 327 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 1: his theory has gravitational waves in it, and we've seen them, right, 328 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:51,160 Speaker 1: that's awesome. But what we don't know is if those 329 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 1: waves are made of tiny little bits, like if you 330 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 1: zoom in on them enough and you break them down 331 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 1: into tiny little bits, like if you turn down a 332 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 1: flashlight really really low. Eventually, if you have a really 333 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 1: awesome flashlight, you'll get it down to the point where 334 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 1: it's sending out one photon at a time. Right, there's 335 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:10,160 Speaker 1: a minimum amount of energy that has to come out 336 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: of your flashlights, either off or sending out one photon 337 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:15,119 Speaker 1: per second. I can't send out half a photon. And 338 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 1: so it is that there's maybe a minimum amount of gravity, 339 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:23,119 Speaker 1: and that's what a graviton is. Yeah, exactly. You know, 340 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 1: think about it maybe spatially if that's helpful. Like, you know, 341 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 1: the universe has pixels, right, we talked about space maybe 342 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: being sliced up into little pixels. Well, this is sort 343 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 1: of like pixelization of gravity, Like is there a minimum 344 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: bit of gravity? And you know, we don't know. There's 345 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 1: a very strong argument that there should be because everything 346 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 1: else in the universe seems to be quantum mechanical. Right. 347 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 1: The universe, as as you like to say, is chunky 348 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 1: and a creamy peanut butter, right, and so we think 349 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 1: everything should behave those rules. But our theory of gravity 350 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:56,679 Speaker 1: general relativity is not a quantum theory, right, It's a 351 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: classical theory. It assumes that you could have an infinitely 352 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:02,639 Speaker 1: tiny amount of gravity, or that you can have mass 353 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:05,239 Speaker 1: in an infinite amount in a tiny little dot right 354 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 1: of singularity. Those things are are at odds with quantum mechanics. Yeah, 355 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 1: because the difference I think you've told me this before, 356 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 1: is that you know, all the other forces act via 357 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 1: quantum field, but we don't know if gravity has a 358 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:25,119 Speaker 1: gravity field in the universe, right, Like gravity kind of 359 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 1: has a special place among the other forces, and that 360 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:30,880 Speaker 1: it's more like a bending of time and space exactly. 361 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 1: But we hate special cases, right, Physicists like to generalize, 362 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 1: We like to see patterns. We like to organize everything together. 363 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 1: So to say, like everything works this way except for gravity. 364 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 1: Things run in this certain manner except for gravity. You 365 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 1: think nobody special. Well, it's something is special. Then it's 366 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:50,679 Speaker 1: a clue. Right, So it's a clue that about how 367 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:53,880 Speaker 1: the universe works at some really interesting, deep fundamental level. 368 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:56,880 Speaker 1: So before we believe that, we'd like to remove all 369 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 1: other possible explanations. And it's a pretty an argument that 370 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 1: every other force we've ever seen is a quantum force 371 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:06,640 Speaker 1: can be described in terms of particles and fields. So 372 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 1: we're going to try really hard to make that work. 373 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:13,200 Speaker 1: Also for gravity, before we declare that it's impossible. Gravity 374 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,399 Speaker 1: special because you can think of it as a bending 375 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:17,919 Speaker 1: of space and time, whereas all the other forces you 376 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: can't think of them as a bending of space and time. Right, 377 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,119 Speaker 1: like they the the way that it makes sense to 378 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 1: think about those forces is quantum physics. But the way 379 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: it makes sense to think about gravity is as a 380 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 1: bending of space and time. And so that's that's kind 381 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:32,120 Speaker 1: of the problem, isn't it. That is a problem. But 382 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 1: like everything in physics, you can describe in multiple ways, 383 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 1: and so you can build up a theory of gravity 384 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 1: that comes from particles and fields. Right, you can start 385 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: with a gravitational field, right, a quantum field, and you 386 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 1: can have gravitons zipping around, and then you can say, well, 387 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 1: can I build that? Can I sort of build this 388 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:55,120 Speaker 1: mental model and can I have it predict the same 389 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:58,879 Speaker 1: things that general relativity predicts? Right? Because general relativity very successful, 390 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 1: that description gravity works really well. But can I get 391 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:06,359 Speaker 1: the same description building it up in another way? And 392 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: that's sort of the theoretical challenge, And so far the 393 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 1: answer is no. Like they have not yet been able 394 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 1: to build a theory of gravity that starts from quantum 395 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 1: bits and explains all the same stuff as Einstein's theory. 396 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: They haven't because it just doesn't work. They just cannot 397 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 1: make it work. Like they put a theory together using 398 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 1: the same strategies as they have for electromagnetism and the 399 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,640 Speaker 1: weak force and the strong force, and it just doesn't work. 400 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 1: It gives nonsense answers, like it says, if you do 401 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:36,879 Speaker 1: this experiment, then you will measure infinity mass or you 402 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,200 Speaker 1: will build be an infinite amount of energy released, which 403 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 1: is nonsense. Right, You can't have an infinite amount of energy, 404 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:45,159 Speaker 1: So it predicts things which cannot be true, which just 405 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 1: means that we have a problem with the calculation, you know, 406 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 1: and we had similar problems with every other quantum field theory, 407 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:53,120 Speaker 1: but we figured them out. But what is it about 408 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 1: gravity in particular? You think that is giving you so 409 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: much trouble? Gravity has this weird feature that it gets 410 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 1: stronger when there's more energy, right, because gravity essentially is 411 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:06,119 Speaker 1: the bending of space due to energy, right, that's the 412 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 1: way we like to think about it. So as the 413 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,879 Speaker 1: energy goes up, then you get stronger gravity, and then 414 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 1: because you have stronger gravity, the energy has gone up, 415 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,919 Speaker 1: and so you get this feedback effect where these infinities 416 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:20,119 Speaker 1: crop up much more easily than in other forces, because, 417 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:24,399 Speaker 1: like electromagnetism doesn't get stronger when you have more energy, 418 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:27,880 Speaker 1: So it's kind of like um, it's more tied into 419 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 1: the very nature of the universe maybe, and so it 420 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 1: doesn't quite work, that's right. And if it is a 421 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:35,400 Speaker 1: quantum field, and if it does have a quantum particle, 422 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 1: it will still be different. It will still be unique. 423 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,120 Speaker 1: Like the graviton. We think it has this weird kind 424 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,359 Speaker 1: of way of spinning, like all the other particles that 425 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,920 Speaker 1: transmit forces that have either spin one or spin zero. 426 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 1: But the graviton, the only way people have even become 427 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,159 Speaker 1: close to making it work is having it have a 428 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,120 Speaker 1: lot more ways to spin, so it's spin two, which 429 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 1: means there's five different ways it can spin instead of 430 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 1: just one way three ways. So it would definitely be 431 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 1: a different beast if we if we were able to 432 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: make a quantum theory of gravity, it would not look 433 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 1: that similar to like the strong force or the weak 434 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 1: force or electromagnetism. You have to kind of give it 435 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 1: a few more bells and whistles, and that's just to 436 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 1: try to make it work right, And even still those 437 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: theories don't work. The only theory of quantum gravity that 438 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 1: works at all is one that starts very very basic, right, 439 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 1: like string theory and loop quantum gravity. These are attempts 440 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:30,679 Speaker 1: to start from a very different place and build up 441 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 1: quantum fields themselves. And they have succeeded in making some 442 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:37,439 Speaker 1: useful theories of quantum gravity, but none that we can 443 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:39,920 Speaker 1: test yet. What would it mean if it is, if 444 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,119 Speaker 1: the graviton does exist and it is true? Right, it 445 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,159 Speaker 1: would mean that the bending of space and time is 446 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 1: like you said, pixelated or chunky, or you know you can. 447 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 1: I can't bend space and time perfectly smoothly, and it's 448 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,679 Speaker 1: sort of kinks. There's a knob there and instead of 449 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 1: rotating smoothly that has little divots right at one or 450 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,080 Speaker 1: two or three you can't have you can't turn to 451 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 1: two and a half. Right. But also, I think it 452 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:04,720 Speaker 1: would mean something much deeper, Right, It would mean that 453 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 1: gravity really is a force the way we think about 454 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 1: the other forces. We're trying to squeeze gravity into this mold. 455 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 1: Can we describe it using the same mathematical tools we've 456 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 1: used for the other forces. If we can succeed, then 457 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:18,680 Speaker 1: we can say something deep about gravity, like, oh, yeah, 458 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:20,879 Speaker 1: it's just a force like the other ones. It happens 459 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 1: to have this ability to bend space and time, which 460 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 1: is weird and interesting. We have to ask why is that? 461 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:27,719 Speaker 1: You know? And can we connected to the other forces? 462 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 1: But we've met a huge step forward and sort of 463 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:32,880 Speaker 1: unifying all the forces together, seeing them all as one. 464 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,400 Speaker 1: If we can't, then you're right, gravity is weird and special. 465 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:38,640 Speaker 1: And then we have to ask what makes it weird 466 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 1: and special? Why does it seem so much like a 467 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:43,879 Speaker 1: force if it's not really? All right? Um, so it 468 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,360 Speaker 1: may or may not exist, this graviton, and it may 469 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,199 Speaker 1: or may not totally change our our our understanding of 470 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,920 Speaker 1: the whole universe. And so then I think that brings 471 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:54,440 Speaker 1: us to the question of how are we gonna result this? 472 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:56,439 Speaker 1: How are we going to find this thing or not 473 00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:58,720 Speaker 1: find it or conclude that it doesn't exist. So let's 474 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 1: get into that first. Let's take a quick break. All right, 475 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 1: we're talking about the graviton, and we're saying that it's 476 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,399 Speaker 1: it's kind of the minimum little ripple that that maybe 477 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 1: gravity acts through. That if it exists, it means gravity 478 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,119 Speaker 1: is like the other forces. And if it doesn't exist, 479 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 1: it means gravity is something totally different and special. So 480 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 1: how are how are we going to find out what 481 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 1: the answer is? Saying, Well, there's two basic approaches. One 482 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 1: is two sort of look for evidence of it happening already, right, 483 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,159 Speaker 1: And we do this in astrophysics all the time. We 484 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 1: just say, well, let's just look at into the universe 485 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 1: and find something crazy which reveals to us the truth. 486 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 1: Like when we're studying dark matter, and we saw the 487 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 1: collisions of two galactic clusters that showed us how dark 488 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:57,160 Speaker 1: matter gets separated from normal matter. So in this case, 489 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 1: we'd be looking for like really huge gravity tational waves. 490 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 1: So we've already seen gravitational waves, right, Those are evidence 491 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 1: of the wiggling of a gravitational field when like black 492 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,119 Speaker 1: holes collide or whatever. And it's hard to see them, right, 493 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,159 Speaker 1: It's really difficult to see them because they're really faint, 494 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,160 Speaker 1: and so it's even harder to see whether they're made 495 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,119 Speaker 1: of little bits or not. Right, Like, we can just 496 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 1: barely see them, so it's hard to tell if they're 497 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 1: what they're made out of. So what you need to 498 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 1: do is spot like a really mondo gravitational wave, one 499 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 1: that was big enough that you could sort of zoom 500 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,200 Speaker 1: in on it and see what is made out of 501 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 1: something really big, like a like a mega tron. I 502 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 1: think I call it a gravitron. Nader or something, so 503 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,719 Speaker 1: so you need to find It's so the gravitas they 504 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,639 Speaker 1: exists are so small and weak you can't just like 505 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:51,920 Speaker 1: measure them with your finger, right, You're saying, we need 506 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:56,480 Speaker 1: to find something really crazy happening in the universe where 507 00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:59,399 Speaker 1: that's producing so many of these and such an amount 508 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 1: that then you can notice them. Yeah exactly. That's one strategy. 509 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 1: The other strategy is to try to make them here 510 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,159 Speaker 1: on Earth. And you know the go to place for 511 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 1: making crazy stuff here on Earth, of course, is the 512 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 1: particle collider. Like you want to make something new, something 513 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:18,119 Speaker 1: you're not sure as possible, just keep smashing particles together 514 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:20,359 Speaker 1: and eventually it will come out. And so you're saying, 515 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:24,680 Speaker 1: one way to maybe study graviton is to make gravitons. Yeah, exactly. 516 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,280 Speaker 1: And that's the magic of a particle collider is you 517 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 1: throw stuff together and if something can exist, then you 518 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 1: will see it. And so if we smash protons together 519 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 1: often enough, and gravitons are a thing, that eventually those 520 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 1: two protons one a trillion or one or the quadrillion 521 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 1: collisions will turn into a graviton, and that graviton will 522 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 1: then turn into something else that we can see. Hold 523 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 1: on a second, Daniel, here, you're saying that at the 524 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 1: particle collider, you're taking protons, smashing them together and then 525 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 1: transforming them into gravitons. We want to, we're open to 526 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 1: that would be come true. So far, no, so so 527 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,040 Speaker 1: a graviton is a transformer if you find it's what 528 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 1: I'm saying, I totally walked into that. It's exactly. Or 529 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 1: the particle collider is the transformer because it transforms protons 530 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 1: into other kinds of stuff. But you know there's a 531 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 1: huge difference. They're transformer when it changes. It's all the 532 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 1: same stuff, just rearranged in a different shape. Right. The 533 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 1: dinosaur is actually the robot, just with the head where 534 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 1: the tail is or whatever. But in this case, we're 535 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,880 Speaker 1: not doing that or not. We're not rearranging what's inside 536 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 1: the proton into a different shape to make a graviton. 537 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 1: The proton and nilin it turns into nothing. It turns 538 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,640 Speaker 1: into raw energy, which that can then be turned into 539 00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 1: something new. That's how exactly you explore the universe by 540 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 1: turning this raw energy into any of the stuff that 541 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: he can turn into. So it's more like alchemy than transformation. 542 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 1: That's uh, and those are totally different for sure. Yeah, exactly. 543 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 1: If gravitons exist, then the idea is we could make 544 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 1: them by colliding proton together. Eventually, one out of a 545 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 1: jillion times we would make them, and then we would 546 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:08,400 Speaker 1: see them turn into other particles like a pair of electrons. Right. Essentially, 547 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 1: a graviton would look sort of like another version of 548 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 1: the photon. Would you be able to see it though? 549 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 1: Wouldn't it be so weak and small that you be 550 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 1: very very very very difficult to see. Well, that's the 551 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 1: cool thing about the collider, right, I feel like I'm 552 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 1: a collider evangelist today, is that things that are really 553 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,200 Speaker 1: weak that are hard to see just turned into things 554 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,640 Speaker 1: that are really rare at the collider. And so the 555 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 1: more collisions you make, the more you can see rare 556 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 1: stuff like yeah, it's weak, which means every time a 557 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 1: proton collides, you've got to roll a like trillion sided 558 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 1: die to figure out what's going to happen, and only 559 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 1: one of those sides says a graviton is made. But 560 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 1: that's cool. If you roll the die at trillion times 561 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 1: a day, then you're probably gonna get a graviton a day, 562 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,800 Speaker 1: So it sort of sounds like you're basically looking for 563 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,720 Speaker 1: effects that you can point to and say, hey, that 564 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 1: means that there's a graviton somewhere in there, like when 565 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:02,560 Speaker 1: two black holes collide or when you smash these protons together. Exactly. 566 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 1: That's what we do with colliders. We look for unique 567 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 1: signatures of new particles, something that says, oh, this has 568 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 1: to be a new particle. It's very likely to be 569 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 1: a new particle that can't be explained in any other way. 570 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 1: And so we have theories of how gravitons would look 571 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,720 Speaker 1: in our detectors, and so we're looking for them. Um. 572 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 1: So far, we haven't found a hint of gravitons and 573 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,600 Speaker 1: our detectors, um, which just means that you know, they're 574 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 1: basically smaller than we can see. Um, so we could 575 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 1: just keep looking. What you said, you haven't seen a 576 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:34,560 Speaker 1: hint of them, so like zero zero nothing. Yeah, exactly. 577 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,000 Speaker 1: What we've seen so far is totally consistent with Einstein's 578 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 1: theory of general relativity. Well, what do you think is 579 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 1: more more likely, just in your personal opinion, do you 580 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:46,360 Speaker 1: think the graviton exists or do you think maybe it doesn't. 581 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,280 Speaker 1: End Gravity is a very special kind of force. I 582 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 1: think that we're going to figure out that everything is 583 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 1: quantum mechanical. I think the quantum mechanics is just so 584 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 1: fundamental to everything we've seen in the universe except for 585 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 1: this one thing that it seems more likely to me 586 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 1: that we just haven't understood that one last thing yet. 587 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 1: Um that it's you know, it's the one thing that's 588 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 1: has that's left over that hasn't been translated yet into 589 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 1: modern theories of physics. Um. So that's my suspicion that 590 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 1: everything is quantum mechanical, because if, if, if most things 591 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:19,960 Speaker 1: are quantum mechanical, it's hard to imagine how you can't 592 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 1: have everything quantum mechanical, you know, like where's the interface 593 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 1: between the quantum mechanical stuff and then non quantum mechanical stuff. 594 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:28,720 Speaker 1: They have to interact and so they have to both 595 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: be quantum mechanical to sort of talk to each other. Yeah, 596 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 1: so you're really hoping that it's true, because then that 597 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 1: would be like the gravytan on your mash potatoes. No, no, 598 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 1: I suspect it's true. I hope it's not, because it 599 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:44,800 Speaker 1: would be a huge shock if it wasn't right. And 600 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 1: that's the best case scenario for science is learning something 601 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 1: which is a deep shock to like the fundamental community 602 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:55,360 Speaker 1: to say, like what that's impossible. That makes us rethink everything. Awesome, 603 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 1: that's what science is about, right, not like, yeah, we're 604 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 1: pretty sure it's quantum mechanical and turns out it is 605 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 1: check as much less exciting, even if I think that's 606 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 1: most likely the reality. Well that's my personal philosophy. Aim high, 607 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 1: but have low expectations. Well, I hope that's working for you. Well, 608 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 1: I have expectations, so it doesn't. I won't be disappointed 609 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:19,760 Speaker 1: no matter how the gravy tastes. You're happy with it 610 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,959 Speaker 1: if it's made out of big lumps or tiny little gravitons. 611 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:24,920 Speaker 1: All right, So I think that we covered what a 612 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 1: graviton is, right, Daniel, Yeah, how would you summarize it? 613 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 1: I would say it's like gravy with fore and on 614 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 1: top of the transformer and then mixed together with some alchemy. 615 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:36,040 Speaker 1: That's that's what I thought out of this, and then 616 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:41,280 Speaker 1: take two of those and smash them together. No, I 617 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 1: think I think it's the idea that, um, you know, 618 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 1: gravity as a force has to transmit in some way, right, like, um, 619 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 1: you know, it's just it's not like an instantaneous thing, 620 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 1: like a magical thing, so it has to transmit in 621 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 1: some way and and possibly in a minimum way. And 622 00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,120 Speaker 1: that's kind of what this graviton is, right, the idea 623 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 1: that something is transmitting the force and prep you are 624 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:04,880 Speaker 1: officially a quantum physicist. All right, Well, we hope you 625 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 1: enjoyed that. This is one of my favorite topics in 626 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 1: physics because it's theoretical, it's experimental, it's experimentally theoretical, it's 627 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 1: theoretically experimental. It's crazy, it's fascinating, and we don't know 628 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,880 Speaker 1: what the answer is. But someday humans will somedays somebody 629 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:23,800 Speaker 1: will know. Is gravity quantum mechanical or is it special? Great? 630 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:33,560 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, See you next time. Before you 631 00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 1: still have a question after listening to all these explanations, 632 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,520 Speaker 1: please drop us a line. We'd love to hear from you. 633 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,359 Speaker 1: You can find us at Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at 634 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,839 Speaker 1: Daniel and Jorge that's one word, or email us at 635 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:49,800 Speaker 1: Feedback at Daniel and Jorge dot com. Thanks for listening, 636 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 1: and remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe is 637 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio for More podcast from 638 00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:59,759 Speaker 1: my heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, 639 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,759 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. H