1 00:00:08,245 --> 00:00:09,165 Speaker 1: School of Humans. 2 00:00:11,165 --> 00:00:15,285 Speaker 2: This episode discusses sensitive topics. Please listen with care. 3 00:00:16,325 --> 00:00:21,365 Speaker 3: So in twenty seventeen, this person who styles herself a 4 00:00:21,365 --> 00:00:24,645 Speaker 3: folklorist was writing these blog posts about the Romantic era, 5 00:00:25,445 --> 00:00:29,085 Speaker 3: the nationalism movement folklora Danny, which is like, okay, on 6 00:00:29,125 --> 00:00:32,045 Speaker 3: the surface, that all sounds like stuff that folklorists talk about, fine, whatever, 7 00:00:33,045 --> 00:00:37,285 Speaker 3: But she was writing these posts in an effort to 8 00:00:37,605 --> 00:00:42,605 Speaker 3: justify racism and stuff that we would view as very 9 00:00:43,165 --> 00:00:45,405 Speaker 3: right wing takes on nationalism. 10 00:00:45,965 --> 00:00:47,725 Speaker 1: And then in her blog post she. 11 00:00:47,805 --> 00:00:52,045 Speaker 3: Cited me, and I was like, WHOA, don't drag me 12 00:00:52,085 --> 00:00:52,485 Speaker 3: into this. 13 00:00:56,845 --> 00:01:01,805 Speaker 2: I'm Miranda Hawkins. Welcome to the Deep Dark Woods. I 14 00:01:01,885 --> 00:01:05,725 Speaker 2: initially started this podcast because I love how dark and 15 00:01:05,725 --> 00:01:09,325 Speaker 2: twisted the brothers Grim stories are, and for many of us, 16 00:01:09,725 --> 00:01:14,485 Speaker 2: we consider these to be the original tales. But the 17 00:01:14,485 --> 00:01:17,605 Speaker 2: more I've learned, the more I've realized there's a seed 18 00:01:17,885 --> 00:01:22,125 Speaker 2: underbelly to these stories that's been harmful in the real world. 19 00:01:22,685 --> 00:01:25,605 Speaker 2: The Grim Tales, for example, were co opted by the 20 00:01:25,725 --> 00:01:29,845 Speaker 2: Nazi Party to support Germany's national identity and to be 21 00:01:30,005 --> 00:01:36,205 Speaker 2: used as propaganda for fascism, white supremacy, racism, anti semitism, 22 00:01:36,485 --> 00:01:42,685 Speaker 2: and homophobia among other things. Doctor Gina Jorgensen is a folklorist, 23 00:01:42,965 --> 00:01:47,845 Speaker 2: gender studies scholar, lecturer at Butler University and author of 24 00:01:47,885 --> 00:01:50,685 Speaker 2: Folklore One on one, fairy Tales one on one, and 25 00:01:50,725 --> 00:01:54,165 Speaker 2: Sex Education one o one. She is here with me 26 00:01:54,245 --> 00:01:56,845 Speaker 2: today to talk about the darker side of fairy tales 27 00:01:56,885 --> 00:02:06,765 Speaker 2: and folklore. When it comes to the Grim Brothers collecting 28 00:02:06,765 --> 00:02:10,125 Speaker 2: these tales, you know, they talk about preserving for culture. 29 00:02:10,645 --> 00:02:12,845 Speaker 2: Can we kind of get into like, what is a 30 00:02:12,885 --> 00:02:15,685 Speaker 2: subtext of that, because that, you know, is a little 31 00:02:15,965 --> 00:02:16,845 Speaker 2: it is a little tricky. 32 00:02:17,325 --> 00:02:18,605 Speaker 1: Yes, it's very tricky. 33 00:02:18,725 --> 00:02:22,725 Speaker 3: So in the early eighteen hundreds when Yakub and Wilhelm 34 00:02:22,725 --> 00:02:26,965 Speaker 3: Grimm were being scholars in Germany, Germany wasn't Germany yet, 35 00:02:26,965 --> 00:02:28,885 Speaker 3: So it was it was Prescia, it was Hanover, It 36 00:02:29,005 --> 00:02:32,045 Speaker 3: was all these little principalities and baronies and duchies and 37 00:02:32,045 --> 00:02:36,365 Speaker 3: stuff like that. Moreover, Napoleon was rolling through and wrecking 38 00:02:36,405 --> 00:02:38,765 Speaker 3: things and taking things over. So there was this very 39 00:02:39,125 --> 00:02:43,085 Speaker 3: beleaguered sense of like, we are one people, we share 40 00:02:43,285 --> 00:02:46,045 Speaker 3: a language for the most part, we share cultural heritage. 41 00:02:46,445 --> 00:02:48,885 Speaker 3: We should really kick out our oppressors and become a 42 00:02:48,925 --> 00:02:53,685 Speaker 3: country for reals. And this was known as romantic nationalism 43 00:02:53,725 --> 00:02:56,725 Speaker 3: at the time, and the Grim Brothers were participating in 44 00:02:56,805 --> 00:02:59,565 Speaker 3: this strand of it that said, if we can prove 45 00:02:59,925 --> 00:03:05,405 Speaker 3: that we have a shared historical heritage, we can prove 46 00:03:05,565 --> 00:03:07,765 Speaker 3: that we should be a country. And they were coming 47 00:03:07,765 --> 00:03:11,005 Speaker 3: at this from two angles, first language and linguistics, and 48 00:03:11,165 --> 00:03:15,965 Speaker 3: second folklore and fairy tales. So they were active as linguists, 49 00:03:15,965 --> 00:03:18,965 Speaker 3: and so they were also One of their friends, Clemens Fontana, 50 00:03:19,085 --> 00:03:21,445 Speaker 3: was collecting folk songs and top and he was like, hey, guys. 51 00:03:21,245 --> 00:03:22,445 Speaker 1: Come do this cool thing with me. 52 00:03:23,125 --> 00:03:26,205 Speaker 3: So as they were documenting folk tales and fairy tales 53 00:03:26,445 --> 00:03:29,605 Speaker 3: of the German people, they thought they were really contributing 54 00:03:29,685 --> 00:03:33,685 Speaker 3: to this thing that was both artistic and political at 55 00:03:33,725 --> 00:03:37,005 Speaker 3: the same time. And where it gets really tricky is 56 00:03:37,005 --> 00:03:40,365 Speaker 3: that they weren't doing what they said they were doing. 57 00:03:40,845 --> 00:03:43,165 Speaker 3: They made it sound like they were going out among 58 00:03:43,205 --> 00:03:46,405 Speaker 3: the folk peasants and the agricultural workers and the people 59 00:03:46,405 --> 00:03:49,845 Speaker 3: who are closest to the heart of the land, and 60 00:03:49,925 --> 00:03:53,045 Speaker 3: in reality, they were interviewing a lot of middle class 61 00:03:53,085 --> 00:03:56,965 Speaker 3: people who were of French descent. So they were getting 62 00:03:56,965 --> 00:04:00,965 Speaker 3: fairy tales from people who were very literate and very 63 00:04:01,125 --> 00:04:05,125 Speaker 3: educated and very urban. And they had some more like 64 00:04:05,525 --> 00:04:09,125 Speaker 3: role like peasant class tellers as well. So this was 65 00:04:09,165 --> 00:04:11,685 Speaker 3: an issue because when they first published the first two 66 00:04:11,765 --> 00:04:14,525 Speaker 3: volumes of their fairy tales, a lot of their stories 67 00:04:14,685 --> 00:04:18,245 Speaker 3: actually had French origins. So we can document that there 68 00:04:18,285 --> 00:04:23,445 Speaker 3: are earlier versions of say Bluebeard and Cinderella and Little 69 00:04:23,605 --> 00:04:27,125 Speaker 3: redding Hood that came maybe directly, maybe not, from the 70 00:04:27,205 --> 00:04:31,005 Speaker 3: French traditions of Charles Perraut, who was writing in the 71 00:04:31,045 --> 00:04:34,245 Speaker 3: sixteen nineties. And this leads to the really thorny issue 72 00:04:34,245 --> 00:04:37,325 Speaker 3: of who owns folklore because you know, when folklore travels, 73 00:04:37,365 --> 00:04:39,805 Speaker 3: as it does word of mouth, it travels with people 74 00:04:39,885 --> 00:04:44,445 Speaker 3: who are migrant workers, who are traders, who are explorers 75 00:04:44,485 --> 00:04:47,925 Speaker 3: and so on. If it has the tiniest kernel of 76 00:04:47,965 --> 00:04:51,445 Speaker 3: relevance to people, it'll take root and change to kind 77 00:04:51,445 --> 00:04:55,645 Speaker 3: of adapt to local norms, local language, local whatever. So 78 00:04:56,205 --> 00:04:58,085 Speaker 3: the fact that French fairy tales came up to Germany 79 00:04:58,125 --> 00:04:59,325 Speaker 3: and people were like, oh, yeah, we like these, we're 80 00:04:59,325 --> 00:05:02,805 Speaker 3: gonna keep telling them, they became German tales for sure. 81 00:05:03,165 --> 00:05:06,485 Speaker 3: They weren't maybe originally German tales, but maybe they weren't 82 00:05:06,485 --> 00:05:09,525 Speaker 3: originally French tales either. You know, this question of origins 83 00:05:09,605 --> 00:05:13,365 Speaker 3: is really complicated because if we're talking about documenting something 84 00:05:13,405 --> 00:05:17,605 Speaker 3: that starts as oral tradition, unless you have a time machine, 85 00:05:17,885 --> 00:05:21,285 Speaker 3: we have no idea when the first or original version 86 00:05:21,445 --> 00:05:24,605 Speaker 3: was composed or told until somebody happens to write it down, 87 00:05:24,645 --> 00:05:27,325 Speaker 3: which probably happens much later in its chain of transmission. 88 00:05:27,925 --> 00:05:30,245 Speaker 1: So like, I kind of I get. 89 00:05:30,045 --> 00:05:32,285 Speaker 3: Where the Grims were coming from and being like this 90 00:05:32,405 --> 00:05:36,485 Speaker 3: is super German. Heck yeah, but it's hard to make 91 00:05:36,565 --> 00:05:39,805 Speaker 3: that claim for anybody. 92 00:05:39,885 --> 00:05:43,165 Speaker 2: Yeah, and what about the people who are like this 93 00:05:43,205 --> 00:05:45,965 Speaker 2: sln itself to like Nazis, right, the whole idea of 94 00:05:46,005 --> 00:05:47,285 Speaker 2: preserving the culture. 95 00:05:48,365 --> 00:05:51,965 Speaker 3: Yeah, So the link with Nazis came later, and it 96 00:05:52,085 --> 00:05:57,445 Speaker 3: was probably not something the grim Brothers intended their version 97 00:05:57,725 --> 00:06:01,725 Speaker 3: of nationalism. I mean, it was influenced by politics of 98 00:06:01,765 --> 00:06:07,045 Speaker 3: the day and those weren't necessarily nice. But what happened 99 00:06:07,285 --> 00:06:10,205 Speaker 3: in later years in Germany was in the preceding era 100 00:06:10,485 --> 00:06:13,605 Speaker 3: to World War Two, the Vimar Republic fairy tales were 101 00:06:13,645 --> 00:06:16,965 Speaker 3: being used in a lot of different ways by artists, 102 00:06:17,045 --> 00:06:19,805 Speaker 3: by writers. There were a lot of people who were 103 00:06:19,845 --> 00:06:22,725 Speaker 3: interested in both preserving the Grimms fairy tales on the 104 00:06:22,725 --> 00:06:26,965 Speaker 3: one hand, and writing new inventive versions exploring like capitalism, 105 00:06:27,085 --> 00:06:29,805 Speaker 3: socialism and other things. On the other hand, so the 106 00:06:29,845 --> 00:06:33,125 Speaker 3: Vimar Republic was a pretty like vibrant time for fairy tales. 107 00:06:33,845 --> 00:06:36,245 Speaker 1: And then when the Nazis took. 108 00:06:36,045 --> 00:06:39,925 Speaker 3: Over, there was a sort of shift where they saw 109 00:06:40,125 --> 00:06:45,445 Speaker 3: the Grims tales as sort of these authentic stories that 110 00:06:45,565 --> 00:06:52,085 Speaker 3: reveal some sort of ancient Teutonic like Viking Aryan ancestor 111 00:06:52,765 --> 00:06:55,485 Speaker 3: times and links. And so they started to treat the 112 00:06:55,485 --> 00:06:59,365 Speaker 3: Grim's tales as almost like a sacred text, where it 113 00:06:59,445 --> 00:07:02,645 Speaker 3: was discouraged to change them and play with them and 114 00:07:02,685 --> 00:07:05,885 Speaker 3: retell them. And so there were still authors who were 115 00:07:06,125 --> 00:07:09,805 Speaker 3: retelling fairy tales and doing interesting things, but it had 116 00:07:09,845 --> 00:07:13,525 Speaker 3: to be more according to the party line. The tales 117 00:07:13,565 --> 00:07:17,485 Speaker 3: that were being told and that were being reworked picture 118 00:07:17,525 --> 00:07:20,605 Speaker 3: books for children and things like that, the Nazi Party 119 00:07:20,685 --> 00:07:23,605 Speaker 3: wanted them to correspond to the values they were trying 120 00:07:23,645 --> 00:07:27,845 Speaker 3: to promote. So there was a lot of propaganda in 121 00:07:27,885 --> 00:07:33,445 Speaker 3: these tales about loyalty, purity, mothers being self sacrificing, men 122 00:07:33,565 --> 00:07:36,285 Speaker 3: being brave, and things like that. So that was a 123 00:07:36,325 --> 00:07:40,205 Speaker 3: theme that became really prominent in those tales. And there 124 00:07:40,245 --> 00:07:42,485 Speaker 3: were some people actually in the Nazi Party who wrote 125 00:07:42,485 --> 00:07:44,765 Speaker 3: fairy tales. I didn't know that that was a thank you, 126 00:07:44,845 --> 00:07:48,125 Speaker 3: Jack Scipes for pointing this out moment. This guy, Hans 127 00:07:48,125 --> 00:07:51,645 Speaker 3: Friedrich Blank, he was writing tales. They were all about 128 00:07:51,645 --> 00:07:56,245 Speaker 3: this really positive side of marriage and fertility. In Zipes's words, 129 00:07:56,645 --> 00:07:59,325 Speaker 3: he wrote tales for kids, he wrote tales for adults, 130 00:07:59,925 --> 00:08:03,285 Speaker 3: and he had these magical characters like Mother Hall who 131 00:08:03,645 --> 00:08:07,005 Speaker 3: would like affirm the importance of gerosexual marriage and women. 132 00:08:06,925 --> 00:08:08,285 Speaker 1: Staying at home and things like that. 133 00:08:08,765 --> 00:08:13,285 Speaker 3: And Blank was actually a high Nazi official of culture, 134 00:08:13,685 --> 00:08:15,885 Speaker 3: so he was working for the Nazi party and writing 135 00:08:15,925 --> 00:08:19,525 Speaker 3: these tales that were in line with the values they 136 00:08:19,525 --> 00:08:23,725 Speaker 3: were trying to promote, because most fascist regimes are extremely 137 00:08:23,765 --> 00:08:27,165 Speaker 3: heteronormative and have an emphasis on the right people having 138 00:08:27,165 --> 00:08:29,605 Speaker 3: the right kind of babies, so they were trying to 139 00:08:29,725 --> 00:08:32,085 Speaker 3: use fairy tales in that regard. 140 00:08:35,085 --> 00:08:37,525 Speaker 2: I also didn't know that there was there were people 141 00:08:37,605 --> 00:08:41,245 Speaker 2: writing new stories at that time. So, just to kind 142 00:08:41,245 --> 00:08:43,165 Speaker 2: of a guess circle back on a couple things, It's 143 00:08:43,245 --> 00:08:48,045 Speaker 2: not so much that the Grim Brothers were Nazis themselves 144 00:08:48,165 --> 00:08:51,525 Speaker 2: or had that idea. It's that people have taken their 145 00:08:51,565 --> 00:08:55,765 Speaker 2: stuff and used that as like a textbook moving forward. 146 00:08:56,365 --> 00:08:59,325 Speaker 3: Yes, exactly. I would not characterize the grim brothers as 147 00:08:59,445 --> 00:09:03,805 Speaker 3: Nazis or fascists. I think they were basically nerds who 148 00:09:03,925 --> 00:09:06,965 Speaker 3: loved the idea of what the country could become. They 149 00:09:06,965 --> 00:09:10,925 Speaker 3: were linguists, their historians, They did some legal scholarship, They 150 00:09:10,965 --> 00:09:15,565 Speaker 3: did what philology, which would now have become folklore, anthropology, philosophy, 151 00:09:15,605 --> 00:09:18,405 Speaker 3: and a million other little disciplines. So they wanted to 152 00:09:18,645 --> 00:09:22,645 Speaker 3: do their nerdy thing and affirm that the German people 153 00:09:22,725 --> 00:09:25,965 Speaker 3: deserve to have their own country. So yeah, I wouldn't 154 00:09:26,045 --> 00:09:29,885 Speaker 3: characterize them as being in line with fascism like at all. 155 00:09:31,885 --> 00:09:35,885 Speaker 2: That being said, the brothers Wilhelm and Jacob Grimm did 156 00:09:35,965 --> 00:09:38,725 Speaker 2: publish some tales that, when you look back at them now, 157 00:09:39,125 --> 00:09:43,645 Speaker 2: are extremely problematic. One example is a story of the 158 00:09:43,725 --> 00:09:47,325 Speaker 2: Jew and the Thornbush. Doctor Gina Jorgensen will tell us 159 00:09:47,365 --> 00:09:55,965 Speaker 2: about that one after the break. So the brothers grim 160 00:09:56,005 --> 00:09:59,685 Speaker 2: tales were dedicated to preserving German culture and promoting a 161 00:09:59,765 --> 00:10:05,045 Speaker 2: German national identity. Generations later, their tales were co opted 162 00:10:05,125 --> 00:10:10,445 Speaker 2: by the Nazis. We've already seen plenty of gruesome stories 163 00:10:10,485 --> 00:10:13,925 Speaker 2: and motifs, but some of the lesser known tails are 164 00:10:13,965 --> 00:10:18,285 Speaker 2: even more problematic, like this one tale that folklore's doctor 165 00:10:18,325 --> 00:10:21,845 Speaker 2: Gina Jorgensen told me about called the Jew and the 166 00:10:21,885 --> 00:10:22,965 Speaker 2: thorn Bush. 167 00:10:23,245 --> 00:10:25,605 Speaker 3: Yeah, so the Jew and the thorn Bush. It's one 168 00:10:25,605 --> 00:10:29,245 Speaker 3: of their tails where there's this young guy and he's 169 00:10:29,285 --> 00:10:31,965 Speaker 3: a servant and his master lets him go and totally 170 00:10:32,045 --> 00:10:34,565 Speaker 3: underpays him, like three pennies or something like that. But 171 00:10:34,605 --> 00:10:37,565 Speaker 3: this guy is very let's say, naive, and he's like, 172 00:10:37,565 --> 00:10:40,285 Speaker 3: oh cool, I'm rich. So he's gone along and he 173 00:10:40,365 --> 00:10:44,165 Speaker 3: meets this little old man who asks for money, and 174 00:10:44,205 --> 00:10:45,845 Speaker 3: the guy's like, oh yeah, here's all my money. And 175 00:10:45,885 --> 00:10:48,045 Speaker 3: the guy's like, all right, so you're very pure of parts. 176 00:10:48,045 --> 00:10:51,325 Speaker 3: You can have three wishes. So the young man wishes 177 00:10:51,405 --> 00:10:55,205 Speaker 3: for a gun that can hit everything that he aims at, 178 00:10:55,525 --> 00:10:57,845 Speaker 3: a fiddle that will make everyone dance when he plays it, 179 00:10:58,165 --> 00:10:59,885 Speaker 3: and he also wishes for. 180 00:10:59,765 --> 00:11:01,285 Speaker 1: People to always do what he requests. 181 00:11:01,285 --> 00:11:02,765 Speaker 3: And I feel like that's the trump card that kind 182 00:11:02,765 --> 00:11:05,005 Speaker 3: of makes the other two wishes like not matter but whatever. 183 00:11:05,485 --> 00:11:08,605 Speaker 3: So he keeps traveling along and he sees a Jewish 184 00:11:08,685 --> 00:11:11,405 Speaker 3: guy in the road and he's admiring a bird and 185 00:11:11,405 --> 00:11:12,965 Speaker 3: the Jews Guy's like, man, I wish I had that bird. 186 00:11:13,005 --> 00:11:15,005 Speaker 3: So the guy shoots it, which I feel like that 187 00:11:15,085 --> 00:11:16,285 Speaker 3: is also counter productive. 188 00:11:16,645 --> 00:11:18,085 Speaker 1: And then the young man tells the. 189 00:11:18,125 --> 00:11:21,045 Speaker 3: Jew go into the bushes and get it, and there's 190 00:11:21,045 --> 00:11:23,445 Speaker 3: all these thorns, so the guy trying to like navigate 191 00:11:23,445 --> 00:11:25,325 Speaker 3: the thorns, and then the young man starts playing his 192 00:11:25,445 --> 00:11:28,725 Speaker 3: fiddle and the Jewish guy can't help but dance until 193 00:11:28,765 --> 00:11:31,165 Speaker 3: his clothes are being shredded around him. He's being all 194 00:11:31,165 --> 00:11:33,045 Speaker 3: torn up, and this young man just has a hearty 195 00:11:33,125 --> 00:11:36,045 Speaker 3: laugh and he says like, Okay, I'll stop playing if 196 00:11:36,045 --> 00:11:38,805 Speaker 3: you like give me all your money or something or 197 00:11:38,805 --> 00:11:40,965 Speaker 3: like a lot of gold. So they do that, and 198 00:11:40,965 --> 00:11:44,285 Speaker 3: the gat goes on his way. The Jewish guy goes 199 00:11:44,325 --> 00:11:47,045 Speaker 3: and finds like a constable or judge or whatever and 200 00:11:47,165 --> 00:11:49,525 Speaker 3: is like this man stole from me, blah blah blah. 201 00:11:49,565 --> 00:11:52,525 Speaker 3: And they get the young guy and they're like, okay, yeah, 202 00:11:52,525 --> 00:11:55,365 Speaker 3: this sounds realistic, so we will hang you now. And 203 00:11:55,405 --> 00:11:57,605 Speaker 3: the guy says just one last request, and they have 204 00:11:57,685 --> 00:11:58,525 Speaker 3: to grant his request. 205 00:11:58,565 --> 00:11:59,445 Speaker 1: He has to play his fiddle. 206 00:11:59,485 --> 00:12:02,165 Speaker 3: The jewsh Guy's like, no, no, anything but that, and 207 00:12:02,285 --> 00:12:05,005 Speaker 3: so the guy plays his fiddle and nobody can stop dancing, 208 00:12:05,565 --> 00:12:07,885 Speaker 3: and so again they kind of beg him to stop 209 00:12:07,925 --> 00:12:10,445 Speaker 3: playing his fiddle so that they they're like. 210 00:12:10,525 --> 00:12:12,765 Speaker 1: Screaming and they're pleading with him to stop. 211 00:12:13,245 --> 00:12:16,165 Speaker 3: And so he says, give me my life, let me 212 00:12:16,245 --> 00:12:17,725 Speaker 3: keep those hundred gold coins so they. 213 00:12:17,685 --> 00:12:18,685 Speaker 1: Got from the Jewish guy. 214 00:12:19,165 --> 00:12:22,205 Speaker 3: And also he tells the Jewish guy to confess to 215 00:12:22,325 --> 00:12:26,045 Speaker 3: being a swindler and a thief essentially, and the Jewish 216 00:12:26,085 --> 00:12:29,005 Speaker 3: kind of confesses that he stole all this money, and 217 00:12:29,045 --> 00:12:31,365 Speaker 3: so the Jewish guy takes the young man's place on 218 00:12:31,485 --> 00:12:32,125 Speaker 3: the gallows. 219 00:12:33,605 --> 00:12:36,045 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's just a straight up fucked up tail. 220 00:12:36,285 --> 00:12:37,125 Speaker 1: It really is. 221 00:12:37,205 --> 00:12:39,085 Speaker 3: And I read this stuff and I was like, I'm Jewish, 222 00:12:39,125 --> 00:12:41,605 Speaker 3: and I'm like, oh, that's not that's not good representation all. 223 00:12:43,485 --> 00:12:46,805 Speaker 2: No, not at all. Just curious where do you think 224 00:12:46,845 --> 00:12:49,485 Speaker 2: this tale came from? Because it just seems so different. 225 00:12:49,525 --> 00:12:51,245 Speaker 2: It's not even something I had heard of before. 226 00:12:52,285 --> 00:12:55,165 Speaker 3: So, this tale in the Grims that is known as 227 00:12:55,205 --> 00:12:58,805 Speaker 3: the Jew and the Thornbush, it has an international tail type. 228 00:12:59,365 --> 00:13:01,365 Speaker 3: It is that well known. It is tail type five 229 00:13:01,485 --> 00:13:05,885 Speaker 3: ninety two titled the Dance among Thorns, And so it 230 00:13:05,965 --> 00:13:09,125 Speaker 3: has all of these really common motifs in it, the 231 00:13:09,165 --> 00:13:12,725 Speaker 3: granting the wishes. You get this fiddle that compels people 232 00:13:12,725 --> 00:13:16,725 Speaker 3: to dance, and in different versions, it's not always a 233 00:13:16,765 --> 00:13:20,285 Speaker 3: Jewish person who is forced to dance. Sometimes it's a monk, 234 00:13:20,485 --> 00:13:23,725 Speaker 3: it could be somebody else. This tale type is known 235 00:13:23,885 --> 00:13:28,285 Speaker 3: since the fifteenth century in Europe, and it's told. 236 00:13:28,205 --> 00:13:29,045 Speaker 1: All over the place. 237 00:13:29,085 --> 00:13:34,405 Speaker 3: So we have versions in Danish, in Finnish, German, obviously, 238 00:13:34,805 --> 00:13:40,245 Speaker 3: we have Swiss versions, we have Romanian versions, there's Chinese versions, 239 00:13:40,405 --> 00:13:44,125 Speaker 3: Syrian versions. So this is a widely known tale and 240 00:13:44,365 --> 00:13:48,205 Speaker 3: it doesn't always target Jewish people as the antagonist. It 241 00:13:48,205 --> 00:13:50,805 Speaker 3: can be kind of you know, insert your scapegoat here, 242 00:13:51,245 --> 00:13:53,005 Speaker 3: but it is really well known. So this isn't something 243 00:13:53,005 --> 00:13:57,925 Speaker 3: that the Grims necessarily invented or promoted. I can't speak 244 00:13:57,925 --> 00:14:00,765 Speaker 3: to why they made the choices they made, but it 245 00:14:00,845 --> 00:14:04,765 Speaker 3: was probably just documenting here's a thing, and it would 246 00:14:04,765 --> 00:14:08,005 Speaker 3: have sort of fit with some of the anti Semitic 247 00:14:08,485 --> 00:14:11,325 Speaker 3: sentiments of the time, because you know, nineteenth century in 248 00:14:11,405 --> 00:14:13,525 Speaker 3: Germany not a great time to be a Jewish person, 249 00:14:13,885 --> 00:14:16,365 Speaker 3: and so yeah, it was probably just more a reflection 250 00:14:16,485 --> 00:14:20,085 Speaker 3: of the general culture than of the Grim Brothers anti 251 00:14:20,125 --> 00:14:23,405 Speaker 3: Semitism specifically. But again that's it's hard to speculate because 252 00:14:23,525 --> 00:14:26,365 Speaker 3: I'm not inside their brains. In most modern editions of 253 00:14:26,365 --> 00:14:28,925 Speaker 3: the Grim's fairy tales, unless they are prepared by and 254 00:14:29,005 --> 00:14:31,765 Speaker 3: for scholars, this tale is left out. 255 00:14:32,925 --> 00:14:36,565 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it definitely sounds like this tale. While again 256 00:14:36,965 --> 00:14:39,005 Speaker 2: because of that time and that's what they made the decision, 257 00:14:39,005 --> 00:14:40,845 Speaker 2: we can't really talk about it, but it definitely sounds 258 00:14:40,885 --> 00:14:43,525 Speaker 2: like this tale. It just kind of depends on what 259 00:14:43,605 --> 00:14:46,045 Speaker 2: culture or where your were, dependent on who it was 260 00:14:46,445 --> 00:14:51,565 Speaker 2: aimed at. I want to circle back around to somethings 261 00:14:51,565 --> 00:14:55,765 Speaker 2: that we're talking about earlier, specifically with the underlying messages 262 00:14:55,925 --> 00:14:59,085 Speaker 2: in these fairy tales. So we have like clear things 263 00:14:59,125 --> 00:15:01,325 Speaker 2: like the one that we just talked about, but then 264 00:15:01,365 --> 00:15:04,045 Speaker 2: we have that underlying message of like Cinderella or like 265 00:15:04,125 --> 00:15:08,125 Speaker 2: you know, shaping, like the loyalty, the heterosexual marriage. Like 266 00:15:08,165 --> 00:15:11,765 Speaker 2: these are like the things. But like what about other stories, 267 00:15:11,845 --> 00:15:14,205 Speaker 2: like you know, Little Red writing Hood and things like that, 268 00:15:14,365 --> 00:15:16,525 Speaker 2: Like what are some of the messages and these these 269 00:15:16,525 --> 00:15:17,565 Speaker 2: other main stories. 270 00:15:18,525 --> 00:15:19,645 Speaker 1: That's an interesting one. 271 00:15:19,685 --> 00:15:23,005 Speaker 3: There are definitely some writers in Germany in say the 272 00:15:23,085 --> 00:15:27,645 Speaker 3: nineteen twenties and post World War One defeat who interpreted 273 00:15:27,765 --> 00:15:32,245 Speaker 3: Little Red Writing Hood as this sort of metaphor for. 274 00:15:32,245 --> 00:15:33,405 Speaker 1: The Germanic people. 275 00:15:33,805 --> 00:15:35,885 Speaker 3: This is again drawing on the work of Jack Sypes, 276 00:15:35,885 --> 00:15:39,765 Speaker 3: who pointed out that this one guy linked the wolf 277 00:15:39,805 --> 00:15:42,285 Speaker 3: to the early Roman Empire, little red cap to like 278 00:15:42,325 --> 00:15:45,405 Speaker 3: the idea of germanness, the hunter to the idea of 279 00:15:45,445 --> 00:15:48,325 Speaker 3: the great German protector or the feur, and this idea 280 00:15:48,685 --> 00:15:53,205 Speaker 3: that literal writing hood's subjugation was linked to how the 281 00:15:53,245 --> 00:15:56,565 Speaker 3: German people were being put down and subjugated. 282 00:15:56,085 --> 00:15:59,125 Speaker 1: Post World War One. They didn't really say it was the. 283 00:15:59,125 --> 00:16:01,245 Speaker 3: Jews, but I feel like they were maybe implying, you know, 284 00:16:01,485 --> 00:16:04,565 Speaker 3: we should have a convenian scapegoat here. So it was 285 00:16:04,605 --> 00:16:10,725 Speaker 3: just a sort of are racist and nationalistic interpretation, But yeah, 286 00:16:10,765 --> 00:16:15,125 Speaker 3: some German writers definitely tried to link a little red 287 00:16:15,125 --> 00:16:18,285 Speaker 3: writing hood to like and we too have been victimized. 288 00:16:19,485 --> 00:16:22,765 Speaker 2: And then what about specifically, I guess the idea of 289 00:16:22,805 --> 00:16:25,045 Speaker 2: like how women are supposed to be, like the idea 290 00:16:25,045 --> 00:16:28,085 Speaker 2: of like loyalty and how we're supposed to act or 291 00:16:28,125 --> 00:16:30,205 Speaker 2: how they expected like women to act and things of 292 00:16:30,245 --> 00:16:30,645 Speaker 2: that sort. 293 00:16:31,485 --> 00:16:34,845 Speaker 3: Yeah, so the Grimms did put that seed in there, 294 00:16:34,925 --> 00:16:37,885 Speaker 3: And again there's some debate as to whether they were 295 00:16:38,125 --> 00:16:40,885 Speaker 3: actively sexist or just sort of following the norms of 296 00:16:40,885 --> 00:16:44,325 Speaker 3: their times without questioning We do know because we have 297 00:16:44,405 --> 00:16:48,045 Speaker 3: different editions of the Grimm's Fairy Tales, including an eighteen 298 00:16:48,165 --> 00:16:50,925 Speaker 3: ten manuscript that wasn't really ever published, but it was 299 00:16:50,965 --> 00:16:54,245 Speaker 3: recovered later on. Because they changed their tales from the 300 00:16:54,285 --> 00:16:57,845 Speaker 3: first edition in eighteen twelve and eighteen fifteen. They went 301 00:16:57,845 --> 00:17:02,085 Speaker 3: through seven major revisions up through eighteen fifty seven, and 302 00:17:02,165 --> 00:17:05,965 Speaker 3: so we know that they had an active hand, especially Humgrim. 303 00:17:06,445 --> 00:17:08,845 Speaker 3: He was very actively editing some of the tales because 304 00:17:09,445 --> 00:17:13,285 Speaker 3: their first edition was like, here's some scholarship fellow nerds, 305 00:17:13,285 --> 00:17:15,605 Speaker 3: and it was full of annotations and all of this 306 00:17:15,645 --> 00:17:19,565 Speaker 3: stuff that would probably not interest the general reader. And 307 00:17:19,645 --> 00:17:22,845 Speaker 3: then as their books started taking off, they're like, oh oh, 308 00:17:22,885 --> 00:17:25,525 Speaker 3: people are reading these, Oh oh, people are reading these 309 00:17:25,565 --> 00:17:29,485 Speaker 3: to their kids. And they realized that they had some 310 00:17:29,645 --> 00:17:31,885 Speaker 3: images in there that they didn't want kids to be reading. 311 00:17:31,885 --> 00:17:34,685 Speaker 3: And sort of the bizarre thing is that we think 312 00:17:34,725 --> 00:17:37,765 Speaker 3: of children's literature in the twenty first century in America 313 00:17:38,285 --> 00:17:41,685 Speaker 3: very differently than people were thinking of children's literature in 314 00:17:41,725 --> 00:17:44,765 Speaker 3: the mid eighteen hundreds in Europe. So, first off, the 315 00:17:44,805 --> 00:17:47,845 Speaker 3: idea of childhood had shifted and was sort of a 316 00:17:47,885 --> 00:17:52,285 Speaker 3: recent European concept. I gather that in the middle Ages, 317 00:17:52,645 --> 00:17:55,965 Speaker 3: children were kind of like little minimes, like tiny adults 318 00:17:56,005 --> 00:17:58,045 Speaker 3: who just died a lot, and they were dressed as 319 00:17:58,045 --> 00:18:00,685 Speaker 3: adults and treated as adults, and there wasn't really this 320 00:18:00,805 --> 00:18:04,645 Speaker 3: separate life stage of childhood in the way that we 321 00:18:04,645 --> 00:18:10,765 Speaker 3: would think about it day. So when the Grims entered 322 00:18:10,765 --> 00:18:13,365 Speaker 3: the stage, there was this idea that was tied to 323 00:18:13,725 --> 00:18:17,645 Speaker 3: romanticism of the innocence of the child and how this 324 00:18:17,805 --> 00:18:21,365 Speaker 3: is idealized, and how we should all aspire to such 325 00:18:22,285 --> 00:18:25,525 Speaker 3: naivete and all this stuff that was also linked to nature. 326 00:18:26,045 --> 00:18:29,725 Speaker 3: And so children's literature was sort of a new genre 327 00:18:29,805 --> 00:18:32,165 Speaker 3: at the time, and the way it was often thought 328 00:18:32,205 --> 00:18:33,925 Speaker 3: of was sex. 329 00:18:33,725 --> 00:18:36,565 Speaker 1: Was not okay, and I feel like that is a. 330 00:18:35,965 --> 00:18:38,485 Speaker 3: Similar current as you've seen a lot of children's literature today. 331 00:18:38,925 --> 00:18:43,125 Speaker 3: But violence was okay because it was acceptable to scare 332 00:18:43,165 --> 00:18:45,245 Speaker 3: the crap out of kids to make them behave. 333 00:18:46,005 --> 00:18:46,685 Speaker 1: So there were. 334 00:18:46,645 --> 00:18:50,405 Speaker 3: Children's books at the time like Slovenly Peter is a 335 00:18:50,445 --> 00:18:53,805 Speaker 3: translation of a German title, where like if kids wouldn't 336 00:18:53,805 --> 00:18:56,245 Speaker 3: stop sucking in their thumbs, someone would come along and 337 00:18:56,245 --> 00:18:58,245 Speaker 3: cut them off, Or if you wouldn't stop playing by 338 00:18:58,245 --> 00:19:00,245 Speaker 3: the fire, someone push you into the fire, and that 339 00:19:00,325 --> 00:19:01,205 Speaker 3: was acceptable, that. 340 00:19:01,245 --> 00:19:03,125 Speaker 1: Was fine, that's really intense. 341 00:19:03,725 --> 00:19:06,685 Speaker 3: Yeah, So the Grims were in this sort of tradition, 342 00:19:07,045 --> 00:19:09,245 Speaker 3: this new tradition of children that are s at the time, 343 00:19:09,765 --> 00:19:11,645 Speaker 3: where they're like, okay, so we're going to revise some 344 00:19:11,685 --> 00:19:14,485 Speaker 3: of our tales. There are references to pregnancy that they 345 00:19:14,485 --> 00:19:18,325 Speaker 3: took out. There are references to sexuality that they took out, 346 00:19:18,645 --> 00:19:22,645 Speaker 3: but they left in violence, and they left in scatological references, 347 00:19:22,725 --> 00:19:26,325 Speaker 3: and later British translators into English would like take a lot. 348 00:19:26,165 --> 00:19:26,685 Speaker 1: Of those out. 349 00:19:27,085 --> 00:19:29,485 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was just sort of this like different take 350 00:19:29,525 --> 00:19:31,685 Speaker 3: on it. But one of the things they did as 351 00:19:31,725 --> 00:19:35,005 Speaker 3: they revise their tales with the sort of new audience 352 00:19:35,045 --> 00:19:40,245 Speaker 3: of children in mind, is they really highlighted gender roles 353 00:19:40,285 --> 00:19:45,525 Speaker 3: for girls and women that were more subservient, more domesticated, 354 00:19:45,565 --> 00:19:48,285 Speaker 3: things like that. So if you look at early versions 355 00:19:48,325 --> 00:19:51,845 Speaker 3: of snow White, when she is either chased away or 356 00:19:51,885 --> 00:19:54,525 Speaker 3: runs away from the evil queen and she finds the dwarves, 357 00:19:54,685 --> 00:19:56,845 Speaker 3: they're like, oh, yeah, you can chill here, And then 358 00:19:56,885 --> 00:19:59,885 Speaker 3: in later versions of the same tale they're like, oh, 359 00:20:00,165 --> 00:20:03,085 Speaker 3: you can stay here if you make the beds and 360 00:20:03,165 --> 00:20:05,725 Speaker 3: cook for us and sweet. It's like a list of 361 00:20:05,765 --> 00:20:08,765 Speaker 3: what a girl should do at home explicitly laid out 362 00:20:08,805 --> 00:20:12,725 Speaker 3: in this fairy tale, which is kind of wild. So again, 363 00:20:12,765 --> 00:20:17,285 Speaker 3: the grims were sort of seeding those more conservative, proper 364 00:20:17,365 --> 00:20:22,125 Speaker 3: gender roles. So I can see where later people would 365 00:20:22,125 --> 00:20:24,725 Speaker 3: pick up on that and be able to amplify it 366 00:20:24,765 --> 00:20:26,085 Speaker 3: because it was already there. 367 00:20:27,605 --> 00:20:28,205 Speaker 1: Oh wow. 368 00:20:28,325 --> 00:20:31,325 Speaker 2: So yeah, so it's like teaching or brainwashing. However you'd 369 00:20:31,365 --> 00:20:33,725 Speaker 2: like to say, like from a very early stage of 370 00:20:33,765 --> 00:20:36,365 Speaker 2: like this is how you should be, that subservient thing, 371 00:20:36,485 --> 00:20:38,645 Speaker 2: and then also to like your big thing is to 372 00:20:38,645 --> 00:20:43,045 Speaker 2: get married, that's your happily ever after, which I'm definitely 373 00:20:43,085 --> 00:20:44,885 Speaker 2: seeing a shift, and especially in a lot of the 374 00:20:44,965 --> 00:20:47,485 Speaker 2: Cinderellas I've been watching lately, a lot of the adaptations 375 00:20:47,525 --> 00:20:49,805 Speaker 2: and watching and reading and all that sort of thing. 376 00:20:50,845 --> 00:20:54,405 Speaker 2: So I'm kind of also curious again still talking about 377 00:20:54,405 --> 00:20:57,045 Speaker 2: like women and gender roles and everything. You know, we 378 00:20:57,085 --> 00:20:59,685 Speaker 2: still read these tales. But do you think like women 379 00:20:59,725 --> 00:21:02,805 Speaker 2: these days have the same takeaway today like that they 380 00:21:02,805 --> 00:21:05,405 Speaker 2: did then, or do you think that that is changing. 381 00:21:06,605 --> 00:21:11,085 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a really interesting question. So we know that 382 00:21:12,005 --> 00:21:14,325 Speaker 3: in the past, especially in the eighteen hundreds in Europe, 383 00:21:15,285 --> 00:21:19,005 Speaker 3: tales were often told among groups of women, who were 384 00:21:19,045 --> 00:21:22,645 Speaker 3: doing the domestic task that almost literally every woman had 385 00:21:22,685 --> 00:21:24,885 Speaker 3: to do because we didn't have anywhere to buy clothes yet, 386 00:21:25,085 --> 00:21:29,685 Speaker 3: so women would regularly spend time spinning and weaving and 387 00:21:29,765 --> 00:21:32,845 Speaker 3: sewing and repairing clothing and so on. This was a 388 00:21:32,925 --> 00:21:37,605 Speaker 3: major activity that women at most social economic statuses like 389 00:21:37,805 --> 00:21:40,765 Speaker 3: had to do on the regular So part of how 390 00:21:40,805 --> 00:21:43,765 Speaker 3: they made the work bearable is by telling stories. 391 00:21:44,285 --> 00:21:45,125 Speaker 1: And we think that. 392 00:21:45,125 --> 00:21:50,085 Speaker 3: There are some little like seeds of subversiveness in some 393 00:21:50,165 --> 00:21:53,525 Speaker 3: of these tales, like there's a little known rumpel Stiltskin 394 00:21:53,725 --> 00:21:57,165 Speaker 3: relative where you know, this girl has promised to a 395 00:21:57,245 --> 00:21:59,685 Speaker 3: king if she can spin all the straw and goal 396 00:21:59,805 --> 00:22:02,045 Speaker 3: or just spin all the straw in general, blah blah blah, 397 00:22:02,085 --> 00:22:05,325 Speaker 3: and she obviously has no magic, and she's like, a crap, 398 00:22:05,485 --> 00:22:08,125 Speaker 3: what I'm gonna do? And these three old women show up, 399 00:22:08,125 --> 00:22:10,485 Speaker 3: and they are hideously ugly old women, and they say, 400 00:22:10,845 --> 00:22:12,765 Speaker 3: we'll help you, but you have to invite us to 401 00:22:12,805 --> 00:22:15,725 Speaker 3: your wedding and treat us like family, and the girl's 402 00:22:15,765 --> 00:22:19,885 Speaker 3: like sold. So they complete this insane task for her 403 00:22:20,085 --> 00:22:23,525 Speaker 3: and disappear, and she's married to this king, and the 404 00:22:23,605 --> 00:22:25,845 Speaker 3: king obviously thinks that he's going to get really really 405 00:22:25,925 --> 00:22:27,845 Speaker 3: rich by having a wife who can either spin so 406 00:22:27,885 --> 00:22:30,525 Speaker 3: much stuff in general or spin stuff into gold. And 407 00:22:30,765 --> 00:22:33,045 Speaker 3: these three women show up at the wedding and she's 408 00:22:33,085 --> 00:22:36,005 Speaker 3: like empty, so and so come sit with us. 409 00:22:36,045 --> 00:22:37,725 Speaker 1: And the king is like, oh okay. 410 00:22:38,365 --> 00:22:40,925 Speaker 3: And the king is like leaning over because he can't 411 00:22:40,965 --> 00:22:43,245 Speaker 3: stop looking at these ugly women, and he's like, so 412 00:22:43,285 --> 00:22:44,885 Speaker 3: I have to ask, and he goes through each of 413 00:22:44,925 --> 00:22:47,845 Speaker 3: their features, like one has a really big lip, one 414 00:22:47,885 --> 00:22:50,085 Speaker 3: has a really big thumb, one has a really big foot, 415 00:22:50,245 --> 00:22:52,965 Speaker 3: and each one answers, Oh, it's from licking the flax, 416 00:22:53,085 --> 00:22:55,405 Speaker 3: or oh it's from treading on the wheel, and the 417 00:22:55,485 --> 00:22:58,325 Speaker 3: king is horrified. He says, my beautiful young wife shall 418 00:22:58,365 --> 00:23:01,685 Speaker 3: never spin again. And so that is for this young 419 00:23:01,725 --> 00:23:05,165 Speaker 3: peasant girl who just like married up, definitely a happy ending, 420 00:23:05,205 --> 00:23:08,885 Speaker 3: and it promises and escape from the tedious work that 421 00:23:08,925 --> 00:23:11,245 Speaker 3: the people telling the tale would have still had to 422 00:23:11,285 --> 00:23:14,085 Speaker 3: be doing day in and day out. So there are 423 00:23:14,165 --> 00:23:18,445 Speaker 3: these like little glimpses of the tales not being as 424 00:23:19,085 --> 00:23:24,125 Speaker 3: conservative or like foreclosing possibilities as they're often assumed to be. 425 00:23:24,285 --> 00:23:26,965 Speaker 3: So like, that's one puzzle piece from the past. And 426 00:23:27,045 --> 00:23:28,885 Speaker 3: again we don't have a time machine, so we can't 427 00:23:28,885 --> 00:23:31,125 Speaker 3: ask people what did you think of these stories? But 428 00:23:31,165 --> 00:23:34,205 Speaker 3: that's one clue that these stories even existed, and that 429 00:23:34,285 --> 00:23:37,525 Speaker 3: we can look at the parallels between the content of 430 00:23:37,565 --> 00:23:41,325 Speaker 3: the tales and the context of the teller's lives. Nowadays, 431 00:23:41,365 --> 00:23:44,245 Speaker 3: it is a major debate in feminist fairy tale studies 432 00:23:44,605 --> 00:23:48,045 Speaker 3: what kids actually think of gender roles and fairy tales, 433 00:23:48,525 --> 00:23:52,005 Speaker 3: because in the nineteen seventies we had this whole debate happening, 434 00:23:52,085 --> 00:23:54,925 Speaker 3: and a lot of feminists were like, these stories are 435 00:23:54,925 --> 00:23:57,805 Speaker 3: straight up bad for kids. They've got passive princesses, they've 436 00:23:57,805 --> 00:23:59,765 Speaker 3: got lots of domestic labor for women, you have to 437 00:23:59,765 --> 00:24:01,965 Speaker 3: be pretty to be rewarded, blah blah blah, and other 438 00:24:02,005 --> 00:24:05,685 Speaker 3: feminists were like, yeah, but that's the narrow slice of 439 00:24:05,725 --> 00:24:09,365 Speaker 3: what's become canonical. There are so many interesting tales from 440 00:24:09,485 --> 00:24:12,045 Speaker 3: oral tradition around the world where girls are going on 441 00:24:12,125 --> 00:24:14,405 Speaker 3: quests and girls are killing dragons and girls are doing 442 00:24:14,485 --> 00:24:16,845 Speaker 3: like a million frickin things. So yeah, if you have 443 00:24:16,885 --> 00:24:19,045 Speaker 3: a narrow view, fairy tales can be kind of like 444 00:24:19,405 --> 00:24:22,205 Speaker 3: conservative traditional gender roles, and maybe that's not good for kids, 445 00:24:22,645 --> 00:24:25,685 Speaker 3: But broaden your horizon. There's so much more out there. 446 00:24:26,085 --> 00:24:29,725 Speaker 3: And then the next stage of that debate, which folklorist 447 00:24:29,805 --> 00:24:32,205 Speaker 3: and author case Stone played a large role in, was 448 00:24:32,245 --> 00:24:34,285 Speaker 3: being like, Okay, but really, what do kids actually think? 449 00:24:34,285 --> 00:24:36,205 Speaker 3: And she interviewed kids, what do you think? 450 00:24:36,245 --> 00:24:37,685 Speaker 1: What do you remember? What do you notice? 451 00:24:38,125 --> 00:24:43,445 Speaker 3: So kids are not these little passive lumps of brain 452 00:24:43,485 --> 00:24:46,005 Speaker 3: meat to be imprinted on, Like, kids have their own 453 00:24:46,045 --> 00:24:49,165 Speaker 3: ideas and their own ways of receiving fairy tales and 454 00:24:49,205 --> 00:24:52,005 Speaker 3: thinking about them and processing them. So I think it 455 00:24:52,045 --> 00:24:55,645 Speaker 3: is a really important corrective, which the parallel in literary 456 00:24:55,685 --> 00:24:59,365 Speaker 3: studies is called reader response theory or reception theory, to 457 00:24:59,485 --> 00:25:02,765 Speaker 3: remember that whatever it's in the text, that's not the 458 00:25:02,805 --> 00:25:05,525 Speaker 3: only puzzle piece here, Like the text is going to 459 00:25:05,605 --> 00:25:08,605 Speaker 3: be received and interpreted by a human with an active 460 00:25:08,645 --> 00:25:11,125 Speaker 3: brain who might take away different things from it than 461 00:25:11,165 --> 00:25:12,165 Speaker 3: the next human over. 462 00:25:13,765 --> 00:25:21,285 Speaker 2: Will be right back after the break. I originally reached 463 00:25:21,285 --> 00:25:24,565 Speaker 2: out to doctor Jorgenson because someone told me about how 464 00:25:24,605 --> 00:25:29,245 Speaker 2: doctor Jorgenson's work had been appropriated by alt right people online. 465 00:25:29,965 --> 00:25:31,365 Speaker 2: So she told me what happened. 466 00:25:32,485 --> 00:25:35,205 Speaker 3: Yeah, I've kept a blog. I've blogged at a couple 467 00:25:35,205 --> 00:25:39,285 Speaker 3: different places for over a decade. Now, I personally feel 468 00:25:39,325 --> 00:25:42,645 Speaker 3: that academics should be doing outreach. We shouldn't keep all 469 00:25:42,725 --> 00:25:45,925 Speaker 3: of our knowledge locked up in the ivory tower. So 470 00:25:46,245 --> 00:25:48,525 Speaker 3: that is just part of my personal mission, is why 471 00:25:48,565 --> 00:25:51,285 Speaker 3: I write books for the general public and not necessarily 472 00:25:51,325 --> 00:25:54,325 Speaker 3: stuff that's like locked behind paywalls all the time, although 473 00:25:54,365 --> 00:25:55,085 Speaker 3: I write that too. 474 00:25:55,565 --> 00:25:57,725 Speaker 1: So this thing happened. 475 00:25:58,285 --> 00:26:03,285 Speaker 3: So in twenty seventeen, this person who styles herself a 476 00:26:03,325 --> 00:26:07,725 Speaker 3: folklorist was writing these blogs about the Romantic era, the 477 00:26:07,845 --> 00:26:11,805 Speaker 3: nationalism movement, folklore identity, which is like, okay, on the surface, 478 00:26:11,845 --> 00:26:13,685 Speaker 3: that all sounds like stuff that folklore is talk about, 479 00:26:13,725 --> 00:26:17,685 Speaker 3: find whatever. But she was writing these posts in an 480 00:26:17,725 --> 00:26:24,565 Speaker 3: effort to justify racism and stuff that we would view 481 00:26:24,605 --> 00:26:29,565 Speaker 3: as very right wing takes on nationalism. And so she 482 00:26:29,845 --> 00:26:33,885 Speaker 3: cited my mentor Alan Dundas to I guess, sort of 483 00:26:34,405 --> 00:26:38,645 Speaker 3: justify that folklore is about cultural heritage and blah blah blah. 484 00:26:38,725 --> 00:26:40,285 Speaker 1: And then in her blog post. 485 00:26:40,325 --> 00:26:44,645 Speaker 3: She cited me, and I was like, WHOA, don't drag 486 00:26:44,725 --> 00:26:47,165 Speaker 3: me into this, but I guess that's what happens when 487 00:26:47,205 --> 00:26:48,565 Speaker 3: you put your words out on the internet. 488 00:26:48,605 --> 00:26:49,925 Speaker 1: Who knows how they get used. 489 00:26:50,565 --> 00:26:56,405 Speaker 3: So she had this whole like anti whatever, like rant, 490 00:26:56,885 --> 00:26:59,405 Speaker 3: like it's a word salad. It doesn't even make a 491 00:26:59,405 --> 00:27:02,565 Speaker 3: whole lot of sense. And so I did not like 492 00:27:02,645 --> 00:27:05,765 Speaker 3: being tagged into this discussion. So I wrote a blog 493 00:27:05,765 --> 00:27:08,285 Speaker 3: posts I was blogging for Patheos at the time, called 494 00:27:08,525 --> 00:27:10,325 Speaker 3: dear white Supremacists, why. 495 00:27:10,125 --> 00:27:10,925 Speaker 1: Would you cite me? 496 00:27:11,845 --> 00:27:15,845 Speaker 3: And I took issue with her use of my mentor's work. 497 00:27:15,845 --> 00:27:18,925 Speaker 1: I took issue with her use of my work. 498 00:27:19,725 --> 00:27:23,765 Speaker 3: I was really confused as to why she was citing 499 00:27:23,805 --> 00:27:28,605 Speaker 3: a queer Jewish academic in her very like anti all 500 00:27:28,645 --> 00:27:31,805 Speaker 3: those things work. I just feel like it is completely 501 00:27:32,405 --> 00:27:39,565 Speaker 3: misrepresenting the contemporary field of folkloristics to support white nationalism, 502 00:27:39,645 --> 00:27:43,285 Speaker 3: white supremacy, to say, oh, as poor white white Europeans, 503 00:27:43,325 --> 00:27:46,285 Speaker 3: we are sober leaguered, poor us blah blah blah. Yeah, 504 00:27:46,285 --> 00:27:50,525 Speaker 3: it's a very weird move that she was making. And 505 00:27:50,645 --> 00:27:53,645 Speaker 3: so I made my own blog post, and I don't 506 00:27:53,685 --> 00:27:57,325 Speaker 3: think anything really came of it. I was worried because 507 00:27:57,365 --> 00:28:00,565 Speaker 3: her work was being picked up by like Altright and 508 00:28:00,805 --> 00:28:03,125 Speaker 3: neo Nazi leaning outlets, and that was a little worse 509 00:28:03,125 --> 00:28:03,565 Speaker 3: and I was. 510 00:28:03,525 --> 00:28:06,245 Speaker 1: Like, I hope I don't get doxed. And nothing really 511 00:28:06,285 --> 00:28:06,685 Speaker 1: came of. 512 00:28:06,685 --> 00:28:10,085 Speaker 3: It, so thankfully that just kind of faded into Internet obscurity, 513 00:28:10,725 --> 00:28:13,085 Speaker 3: but it was. It was weird, and it is something 514 00:28:13,125 --> 00:28:16,685 Speaker 3: that folklorists do encounter sometimes in that, you know, we 515 00:28:16,725 --> 00:28:21,405 Speaker 3: aren't interested in questions of heritage and mythology and identity, 516 00:28:21,405 --> 00:28:25,405 Speaker 3: all these really interesting topics. But so are white nationalists 517 00:28:25,445 --> 00:28:29,045 Speaker 3: and so are fascists, because they need to create this 518 00:28:29,725 --> 00:28:35,805 Speaker 3: illusion of a racially pure origin story that ties together 519 00:28:35,925 --> 00:28:39,285 Speaker 3: communities and excludes other communities. 520 00:28:39,125 --> 00:28:40,845 Speaker 1: Which is completely false. 521 00:28:41,085 --> 00:28:44,565 Speaker 3: Like communities have always been diverse, both in terms of 522 00:28:44,645 --> 00:28:47,525 Speaker 3: like ethnicity and culture and language, like there's no such 523 00:28:47,565 --> 00:28:51,445 Speaker 3: thing as racially pure or culturally pure or whatever. But 524 00:28:51,565 --> 00:28:55,165 Speaker 3: these people need these stories to prop up their beliefs 525 00:28:55,205 --> 00:28:58,725 Speaker 3: and to justify increasingly violent actions. 526 00:28:58,885 --> 00:29:00,485 Speaker 1: So folklost. Whenever we encountered this. 527 00:29:00,405 --> 00:29:02,725 Speaker 3: We're like, oh, this is gross. This is not actually 528 00:29:02,725 --> 00:29:05,805 Speaker 3: accurate either, and it's something that you see. So I 529 00:29:05,845 --> 00:29:09,285 Speaker 3: have friends in neopagan circles. I have friends who do 530 00:29:09,445 --> 00:29:12,405 Speaker 3: historical reenactments and so on, and they also have to 531 00:29:12,445 --> 00:29:14,725 Speaker 3: watch out for the people. It's like, you're really into 532 00:29:14,805 --> 00:29:17,165 Speaker 3: Viking stuff. Are you really actually just nerdy about it? 533 00:29:17,245 --> 00:29:18,645 Speaker 3: Or are you a white supremacist? 534 00:29:19,005 --> 00:29:20,165 Speaker 1: Oh? Gross. 535 00:29:20,445 --> 00:29:24,645 Speaker 3: So it's an interesting, weird dilemma. But most folkloreers I 536 00:29:24,685 --> 00:29:27,845 Speaker 3: know are like, oh, stop, don't use our materials to 537 00:29:28,045 --> 00:29:32,645 Speaker 3: justify your disgusting bigotry. 538 00:29:32,765 --> 00:29:36,525 Speaker 2: Yeah. I've talked to a couple people who who have 539 00:29:36,645 --> 00:29:39,605 Speaker 2: said that folklores are a little bit worried now sometimes 540 00:29:39,725 --> 00:29:44,045 Speaker 2: like speaking up or whatever, because they're afraid of how 541 00:29:44,125 --> 00:29:45,925 Speaker 2: what they say or what they write is going to 542 00:29:45,965 --> 00:29:49,965 Speaker 2: be interpreted or used. So I totally understand that. I 543 00:29:50,005 --> 00:29:53,365 Speaker 2: think definitely that was very bold of you to write that. 544 00:29:53,445 --> 00:29:57,245 Speaker 2: In response, I'm glad you're okay and everything turned out 545 00:29:57,285 --> 00:30:00,485 Speaker 2: for the most part okay, because that does seem like 546 00:30:00,525 --> 00:30:02,725 Speaker 2: a very scary situation at least I know I would 547 00:30:02,725 --> 00:30:05,165 Speaker 2: have been a little like nervous. But I have one 548 00:30:05,205 --> 00:30:09,045 Speaker 2: last question for you. What is your take on these 549 00:30:09,205 --> 00:30:13,885 Speaker 2: modern adaptations of the more popular grim stories today? And 550 00:30:14,285 --> 00:30:17,805 Speaker 2: do you think that even though we're still telling these stories, 551 00:30:18,365 --> 00:30:20,925 Speaker 2: we're starting to tell them in a way that's pulling 552 00:30:20,965 --> 00:30:23,005 Speaker 2: away from the anti Semitic. 553 00:30:22,645 --> 00:30:25,005 Speaker 1: And racist fruits. Yeah. 554 00:30:25,045 --> 00:30:26,805 Speaker 3: So, I think the fact that we still have so 555 00:30:26,885 --> 00:30:28,965 Speaker 3: many fairy tale a retelling is going in so many 556 00:30:28,965 --> 00:30:32,525 Speaker 3: directions is a testament to how fairy tales are these 557 00:30:32,725 --> 00:30:35,685 Speaker 3: shape shifters that as long as we can make them relevant. 558 00:30:35,925 --> 00:30:39,285 Speaker 3: They will basically live forever, and I find that really fascinating. 559 00:30:39,965 --> 00:30:44,285 Speaker 3: Some authors are using fairy tales to sort of talk 560 00:30:44,365 --> 00:30:48,125 Speaker 3: back to anti Semitism. So one really popular example is 561 00:30:48,205 --> 00:30:52,725 Speaker 3: the novel Briar Rose by Jane Nolin, which intertwines the 562 00:30:52,725 --> 00:30:55,925 Speaker 3: Grimm's version of Briar Rose or Sleeping Beauty with a 563 00:30:56,045 --> 00:31:00,645 Speaker 3: family Holocaust narrative. The other really shiny example is my 564 00:31:00,765 --> 00:31:04,845 Speaker 3: colleague Veronica Shanis, who's an academic but also an author. 565 00:31:05,605 --> 00:31:09,885 Speaker 3: She wrote a novella that is basically the protagonist is 566 00:31:09,965 --> 00:31:12,005 Speaker 3: the daughter of the Jew who died dancing in the 567 00:31:12,045 --> 00:31:15,645 Speaker 3: Thorns and she wants revenge. The title of this is 568 00:31:16,325 --> 00:31:19,805 Speaker 3: Among the Thorns and it's super cool. So yeah, So 569 00:31:20,125 --> 00:31:24,685 Speaker 3: there are authors who are explicitly talking back to anti 570 00:31:24,685 --> 00:31:27,365 Speaker 3: Semitism and the uses of the fairy tale and Nazi 571 00:31:27,365 --> 00:31:30,165 Speaker 3: Germany and things like that. I also see a lot 572 00:31:30,205 --> 00:31:35,085 Speaker 3: more general feminist and querytellings of fairy tales. I personally 573 00:31:35,165 --> 00:31:38,485 Speaker 3: I really enjoy those. I enjoy doing scholarship on them, 574 00:31:39,045 --> 00:31:41,805 Speaker 3: and it is something that again like there is potential 575 00:31:42,005 --> 00:31:44,885 Speaker 3: for harm in these stories and sort of my favorite 576 00:31:44,885 --> 00:31:46,885 Speaker 3: case study and it pissed me off, so much that 577 00:31:46,965 --> 00:31:50,245 Speaker 3: I wrote an academic article about it. But I'm really 578 00:31:50,285 --> 00:31:54,325 Speaker 3: interested in gender and sexual minorities and how those of 579 00:31:54,405 --> 00:31:57,405 Speaker 3: us in the LGBTQ plus umbrella are represented in tales. 580 00:31:57,445 --> 00:31:59,245 Speaker 3: So when our writing tales, when we're just the subjects 581 00:31:59,245 --> 00:32:02,125 Speaker 3: of them, all these things, and so I apologize this 582 00:32:02,165 --> 00:32:06,605 Speaker 3: has spoilers for Helen Oyam's book Boy Snow. It's basically 583 00:32:06,685 --> 00:32:09,645 Speaker 3: a snow white retelling set in mid century East Coast, 584 00:32:09,845 --> 00:32:12,205 Speaker 3: and it has this reveal at the end that like 585 00:32:12,405 --> 00:32:14,285 Speaker 3: I didn't see coming, and I'm like, what the hell 586 00:32:14,765 --> 00:32:18,965 Speaker 3: where the main character's abusive father that she's run away with, 587 00:32:19,005 --> 00:32:20,685 Speaker 3: and like she's kind of a snow white figure. But 588 00:32:20,685 --> 00:32:22,165 Speaker 3: then she has a step kid, so like she's kind 589 00:32:22,165 --> 00:32:24,805 Speaker 3: of the snow white stepmother figure. Is kind of an 590 00:32:24,805 --> 00:32:26,205 Speaker 3: interesting story on that regard. 591 00:32:26,685 --> 00:32:28,925 Speaker 1: The main character's. 592 00:32:28,605 --> 00:32:32,125 Speaker 3: Parental figure turns out to be a trans man, and 593 00:32:32,205 --> 00:32:37,125 Speaker 3: so this person actually assigned female at birth was actually 594 00:32:37,205 --> 00:32:40,005 Speaker 3: kind of like a progressive young person in college, was raped, 595 00:32:40,205 --> 00:32:43,685 Speaker 3: gave birth to the protagonist, and then was so traumatized 596 00:32:43,725 --> 00:32:45,685 Speaker 3: by this that like they looked in the mirror the're like, Okay, 597 00:32:45,725 --> 00:32:47,605 Speaker 3: I'm a dude now, And this comes in like the 598 00:32:47,645 --> 00:32:49,365 Speaker 3: last five or ten pages of the book. It is 599 00:32:49,405 --> 00:32:52,485 Speaker 3: this big reveal and then like the main character is like, oh, 600 00:32:52,525 --> 00:32:54,525 Speaker 3: it turns out my mother was there all along under 601 00:32:54,565 --> 00:32:56,885 Speaker 3: a spell, which is another fairy tale motif, which I 602 00:32:56,885 --> 00:33:01,125 Speaker 3: guess is technically interesting, but it's this horrific story making 603 00:33:01,165 --> 00:33:03,805 Speaker 3: out trans identity to be the result of trauma, which 604 00:33:03,845 --> 00:33:04,645 Speaker 3: is not true. 605 00:33:04,685 --> 00:33:08,005 Speaker 1: That is not a thing. And I was like, what 606 00:33:08,125 --> 00:33:09,165 Speaker 1: the shit did I just read? 607 00:33:09,685 --> 00:33:12,045 Speaker 3: So I had to write an article about this and 608 00:33:12,165 --> 00:33:15,765 Speaker 3: like talk about the interconnections between trans identity and trauma 609 00:33:15,845 --> 00:33:18,285 Speaker 3: and untrue stereotypes and things like that. And I sort 610 00:33:18,325 --> 00:33:22,285 Speaker 3: of contrasted that text with a novella by Gabriel the 611 00:33:22,405 --> 00:33:25,805 Speaker 3: Dream called a Pair of Raven Wings, which is available 612 00:33:25,845 --> 00:33:29,085 Speaker 3: now on Amazon, And in that story, there is a 613 00:33:29,125 --> 00:33:32,125 Speaker 3: transgender character and a retold fairy tale, and they're not 614 00:33:32,645 --> 00:33:35,805 Speaker 3: trans because of trauma, because that's usually not a thing. Rather, 615 00:33:35,885 --> 00:33:39,685 Speaker 3: they're traumatized by the transphobia of the people around them, 616 00:33:39,925 --> 00:33:42,765 Speaker 3: and that's an important reframe. I think that is far 617 00:33:42,805 --> 00:33:46,045 Speaker 3: more accurate, And so I'm just really interested, like, you know, 618 00:33:46,085 --> 00:33:49,525 Speaker 3: how do fairy tale authors or these authors of modern 619 00:33:49,645 --> 00:33:53,285 Speaker 3: fairy tale retellings are we doing damage by not knowing 620 00:33:53,285 --> 00:33:55,725 Speaker 3: what the hell we're talking about, and by using someone 621 00:33:55,765 --> 00:33:59,205 Speaker 3: else's marginalized identity as a plot point, like maybe don't 622 00:33:59,245 --> 00:33:59,525 Speaker 3: do that. 623 00:34:00,565 --> 00:34:03,645 Speaker 2: Yeah, No, definitely, especially the book that you're just talking 624 00:34:03,685 --> 00:34:06,885 Speaker 2: about about, like the trauma causing like the transnists. That's 625 00:34:06,885 --> 00:34:09,765 Speaker 2: not how that works at all, whatsoever. So that is 626 00:34:09,925 --> 00:34:12,805 Speaker 2: definitely something that people need to be conscious of when 627 00:34:13,085 --> 00:34:16,205 Speaker 2: creating new content, whatever that content may be, whether you're 628 00:34:16,205 --> 00:34:19,325 Speaker 2: writing or making a movie, or you know, whatever it 629 00:34:19,405 --> 00:34:23,765 Speaker 2: is that you're doing. On that note, thank you so 630 00:34:23,845 --> 00:34:26,165 Speaker 2: much for joining me. I really super appreciate it. 631 00:34:26,525 --> 00:34:29,685 Speaker 3: Awesome, thank you for having me. I enjoyed this conversation. 632 00:34:29,885 --> 00:34:31,845 Speaker 3: I enjoyed going back and brushing up on some of 633 00:34:31,845 --> 00:34:34,165 Speaker 3: my research on these things, and it was a pleasure 634 00:34:34,165 --> 00:34:34,725 Speaker 3: talking with you. 635 00:34:37,165 --> 00:34:41,325 Speaker 2: That was Folklorist doctor Gina Jorgensen. Don't forget to check 636 00:34:41,365 --> 00:34:44,245 Speaker 2: out her books Folklore one on one, fairy Tales one 637 00:34:44,285 --> 00:34:48,165 Speaker 2: on one, and Sex Education one on one. Next time 638 00:34:48,325 --> 00:34:52,005 Speaker 2: on the Deep Dark Woods, A Beautiful Princess sleeps for 639 00:34:52,045 --> 00:34:56,245 Speaker 2: one hundred years. The Deep Dark Woods is a production 640 00:34:56,325 --> 00:35:00,605 Speaker 2: of School of Humans and iHeart Podcasts. It was created, written, 641 00:35:00,725 --> 00:35:04,685 Speaker 2: and hosted by me Miranda Hawkins. This episode was produced 642 00:35:04,725 --> 00:35:09,245 Speaker 2: by mikelle j Une with senior producer Gabby Watts. Executive 643 00:35:09,285 --> 00:35:15,045 Speaker 2: producers are Virginia Prescott, Brandon Barr, Elsie Crowley, and Maya Howard. 644 00:35:15,365 --> 00:35:19,205 Speaker 2: Theme song was composed by Jesse Niswanger, who also sound 645 00:35:19,205 --> 00:35:22,845 Speaker 2: designed and mixed this episode. If you enjoyed the show, 646 00:35:23,245 --> 00:35:26,285 Speaker 2: please leave a review and you can follow along with 647 00:35:26,325 --> 00:35:38,125 Speaker 2: the show on Instagram at School of Humans.