Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff you should know, a production of I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, you're welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh.
Speaker 1: There's Chuck. Jerry's out there somewhere with a magnifying glass
Speaker 1: and toothpick. We don't know what toothpicks for, but this
Speaker 1: is stuff you should not Yes, content warning episode, everybody.
Speaker 1: This is one of our I was about to stay rare.
Speaker 1: They're they're fairly rare, but one of our true crime
Speaker 1: episodes that is very grizzly, gruesome, gruesome, but took place
Speaker 1: in the nineteen thirties, so there's something about old and
Speaker 1: gruesome that makes it a little more palatable for me. Totally.
Speaker 1: I don't know why, but you're absolutely right time, I
Speaker 1: guess you know. Yeah, he heals all wounds to murders. Yes,
Speaker 1: it doesn't. Well, heals all wounds except for some of
Speaker 1: the things that happened in the Torso murders, because you
Speaker 1: can't come from that. It's pretty crazy. You you were
Speaker 1: familiar with the Torso murders already, right, I had heard
Speaker 1: of these, and the more I read about them, the
Speaker 1: more I was shocked at that there wasn't a good
Speaker 1: period movie about this. Yeah. Absolutely, so But if you
Speaker 1: haven't heard the Torso Killer, that's fine, You're You're definitely
Speaker 1: not alone. A lot of people haven't, which is kind
Speaker 1: of surprising because these are they're unsolved murders. There were
Speaker 1: a lot of them, and you know, they took place
Speaker 1: in the background of a city that was like driven
Speaker 1: into a frenzy by this ghastly serial murderer who was
Speaker 1: who continued their murders despite this extraordinarily large, you know,
Speaker 1: man hunt to try to find them, an unsuccessful man
Speaker 1: hunt still to this day. Yeah, I mean, it has
Speaker 1: all the makings of a good movie. Um, it's got
Speaker 1: a and we'll we'll reveal who this person is. We'll
Speaker 1: hang onto it for a second. But they had a
Speaker 1: famous investigator. Oh sorry, yes, and he definitely was the
Speaker 1: famous investigating Yeah you thought I meant who the murderer was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you've got some false starts. You've got some um Coen
Speaker 1: Brothers esque whimsy with with the dog discovery. I thought
Speaker 1: you'd like that. Yeah, I did like that, And um, yeah,
Speaker 1: it has all the makings of a great movie in
Speaker 1: a cool period setting, which was depression era nineteen thirties Cleveland, Ohia,
Speaker 1: which is almost indistinguishable from current day Cleveland. Come on,
Speaker 1: we love Hey man, I'm from Toledo. I can totally
Speaker 1: backs Detroit. I was. That's my birthright. That is your birthright. Um.
Speaker 1: So let's go back to September of when a woman's
Speaker 1: torso is washed up on the shore of Lake Erie.
Speaker 1: Her legs are amputated below the knee. There is no head,
Speaker 1: which is why I said torso. And it's a suspicious
Speaker 1: way to find a body, a very suspicious way. She
Speaker 1: was never identified. They called her the Lady of the Lake.
Speaker 1: And this was just sort of the beginnings. Nothing was
Speaker 1: put together at this point because it would be two
Speaker 1: years before any other murders took place, and that they
Speaker 1: finally sort of put together that the Lady of the
Speaker 1: Lake was perhaps Victim zero, uh, really victim one, but
Speaker 1: they called her Victim zero of who would become known
Speaker 1: as the Torso murderer or the mad Butcher of Kingsbury. Yes, um,
Speaker 1: Kingsbury run. And like you said, it would be about
Speaker 1: two years before they started to connect the dots. But
Speaker 1: in that time between the time the Lady of the
Speaker 1: Lake was found, um about a year past and then
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, two more bodies were found, and
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, because two bodies were found together,
Speaker 1: this really started to capture people's attention to the lady
Speaker 1: of the lake. It was a weird thing. It was
Speaker 1: a terrible thing to find, but it was singular. This was,
Speaker 1: you know, like by definition, not singular, finding two bodies
Speaker 1: at once that were both dismembered. Um. And they were
Speaker 1: found in the area of Kingsbury Run, which is where
Speaker 1: the mad butcher take takes his name. That's right, Um.
Speaker 1: They were both men. In this case, they were uh,
Speaker 1: they were castrated. They were also decapitated, which would become
Speaker 1: sort of a signature. The decapitation and in any kind
Speaker 1: of dismembering really would become the signature hallmark of this murderer. Uh.
Speaker 1: And it's interesting in that victim, one of these two men,
Speaker 1: was actually one of the only ones that they got
Speaker 1: a fairly positive I d for Um actually got some
Speaker 1: fingerprints and it matched a man named Edward Uh Andrewsi.
Speaker 1: And he was sort of a petty thief that had
Speaker 1: you know, the police had brought in before. So he
Speaker 1: was believed to be gay and this if he was,
Speaker 1: you know, which all accounts should say that he was.
Speaker 1: This was at a time when in the nineteen thirties,
Speaker 1: certainly it was still illegal, and it was also listed
Speaker 1: as a mental disorder in the to call not the
Speaker 1: d m V, d U the d m V. The
Speaker 1: d m V didn't look too highly on it either. No,
Speaker 1: that's right. So he I think was one of only
Speaker 1: two that was ever even positively identified of what would
Speaker 1: end up being probably maybe twelve murders. Yes. Um. And again,
Speaker 1: these guys were found together, not together, like they were
Speaker 1: like within, you know, a very short distance of one another,
Speaker 1: so that they were found virtually at the same time.
Speaker 1: And whenever you find, you know, a body missing its head,
Speaker 1: that that is attention grabbing. And when you find two
Speaker 1: bodies both missing their heads, that really starts to get
Speaker 1: the presses juices running. Um. And like we said, these
Speaker 1: were found around Kingsbury Run, and Kingsbury Run is basically
Speaker 1: like an old riverbed that cuts through Um. I believe
Speaker 1: the west side of Cleveland. Uh No, I'm sorry that
Speaker 1: I think the east side of Cleveland down to the
Speaker 1: Coyahoga River, and it was basically like the place where
Speaker 1: all of the oil companies and all of the heavy
Speaker 1: industry along the river and along the lake would dump
Speaker 1: all of their waste. The city put a sewer in there.
Speaker 1: It was just meant to be kind of like a
Speaker 1: waste land, like a literal wasteland. Um. And it kind
Speaker 1: of stayed that way until the depression hit. And by
Speaker 1: the time the depression had things were so bad that
Speaker 1: people were looking to to basically live wherever they could
Speaker 1: for free, and they started taking up residents in Kingsbury Run.
Speaker 1: So by the time the Kingsbury Run murders, the Tords,
Speaker 1: the Torso murders started, Um, this was like a full fledged,
Speaker 1: full swing shanty town. Basically a Great Depression era Hoover town.
Speaker 1: It's what they call them, Yeah, exactly. Um. So it
Speaker 1: was a Graham scene down there anyway. Uh, certainly the
Speaker 1: fringes of society. Um. During the course of the investigation,
Speaker 1: there were accusations of the press that they weren't working
Speaker 1: as hard as they needed to because these were people
Speaker 1: on the fringes of society and sort of forgotten about.
Speaker 1: And I think one of the other people identified. It
Speaker 1: was a few months later in January nineteen thirty six,
Speaker 1: when they found the body of Flow Palilo Florence Pollilo
Speaker 1: was a waitress and bartender and sex worker who was
Speaker 1: discovered once again dismembered, wrapped in newspaper and a couple
Speaker 1: of bushel baskets, and then about a week and a
Speaker 1: half later found other parts of her body. So she
Speaker 1: was sort of found in in it's very grizzly, but
Speaker 1: found in pieces over the course of a week and
Speaker 1: a half in different places. Right, So, so far as
Speaker 1: far as anybody can tell, we're up to three and
Speaker 1: possibly four victims if you include the Lady of the Lake.
Speaker 1: But it wasn't until the following June, about six months
Speaker 1: after flow Palilo was discovered, because again, remember these people
Speaker 1: were they actually lived on the fringe of society. So
Speaker 1: just like today, just like Robert picked in the pig
Speaker 1: farmer from Vancouver, so many other serial killers um find
Speaker 1: their victims um and like the just I guess, the
Speaker 1: lowest stations of society because they're the most vulnerable, they
Speaker 1: have the least protection, And that's kind of what was
Speaker 1: going on. That's why it took so many victims for
Speaker 1: the press to finally be like, Okay, there's something really
Speaker 1: going on here. And finally in June, I believe of
Speaker 1: ninety six, victim number four as far as canonical victims go,
Speaker 1: but possibly the fifth victim was discovered. Um, his head
Speaker 1: was found first by two boys who are playing hookey
Speaker 1: and fishing along the Coyahoga. No, I can't because they
Speaker 1: found like a bald up pair of trousers and I
Speaker 1: guess grabbed them and found that there's something in it.
Speaker 1: When they opened it up, there was the head of
Speaker 1: a man in his twenties. But I've never been identified,
Speaker 1: like so many of these victims. Yeah, and not to
Speaker 1: trivialize any of this, but again, that stuff is very
Speaker 1: ripe for for movie making. Totally, this whole thing is,
Speaker 1: and it really is surprising that no one's done this yet,
Speaker 1: Like you wouldn't you know, you would write something like
Speaker 1: that in a screenplay and this actually happened. There's so
Speaker 1: there's I didn't see. I haven't read it, but there's
Speaker 1: a graphic novel and maybe it's a series called Torso
Speaker 1: that is um about all this, and I'm guessing that
Speaker 1: would probably be a pretty good basis for the movie. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so victim for uh, they were making great efforts to
Speaker 1: find out who this man was. So they actually, um,
Speaker 1: the police circulated a photo of his face and made
Speaker 1: a death mask. If you don't know what a death
Speaker 1: mask is, I encourage you to go listen to our
Speaker 1: episode on death masks. It's basically what you would think.
Speaker 1: It's a it's a recreation of this man's head and
Speaker 1: they put this thing along with a tattoo map. He
Speaker 1: had tattoos all over himself. Um, an illustrated map of
Speaker 1: his tattoos in this death mask on display at the
Speaker 1: Great Lakes Exposition of nineteen thirty six, where you know,
Speaker 1: a hundred thousand people could walk. I mean it was
Speaker 1: a smart idea in one way, because they had a
Speaker 1: you know, could blast it out in the best way
Speaker 1: possible to try and identify who this person was. But
Speaker 1: it was also again like something from a movie. These
Speaker 1: people going to an exposition all of a sudden are
Speaker 1: walking behy these this uh tattoo map and the death
Speaker 1: mask of this man. Uh. And I'm sure the question
Speaker 1: came up, like, well, why is it? Where's the rest
Speaker 1: of his body? Why didn't they just show pictures of
Speaker 1: the tattoos. They're like, stop asking questions, do you know
Speaker 1: the guy or not? No, go get some ice. Cream exactly,
Speaker 1: move along. Nothing to see here. But yeah, despite that,
Speaker 1: you know, very public um search for an identification. He
Speaker 1: was never still has never been identified, and his tattoos
Speaker 1: were really he had people's names tattooed on him. He
Speaker 1: had a cartoon character named Jigs tattooed on him. So
Speaker 1: this guy, you know, you could see his face, they
Speaker 1: had all the tattoos, and he still has never been identified.
Speaker 1: But his his discovery, and I think the very public,
Speaker 1: like the cops circle related a photo of his head
Speaker 1: on a gurney in the morgue at first before they
Speaker 1: made the death mass, among other um uh police agencies
Speaker 1: around the area, and I'm sure to the press as well.
Speaker 1: Um So it was kind of public, even though it
Speaker 1: was kind of quiet, but it got the press's attention,
Speaker 1: and the press started to connect the dots, and all
Speaker 1: of a sudden, we now were connecting the Lady of
Speaker 1: the Lake to this latest guy and all of the
Speaker 1: other ones as well, and it became very clear that
Speaker 1: there was what they call the Mad Butcher of Kingsbury
Speaker 1: run on the loose um in Cleveland, and no one
Speaker 1: had any idea who it was or when or if
Speaker 1: they were ever going to stop. Yeah. I think there
Speaker 1: were seven more victims over the next two years. Victim
Speaker 1: eight were skeletal remains, but they did think they identified
Speaker 1: this person as Rose Wallace. Uh, woman in her forties.
Speaker 1: She had gone missing about a year earlier, and there
Speaker 1: was quicklime use to decomposed this body. And this one
Speaker 1: interestingly had evidence of more of a clumsy dismemberment. Um.
Speaker 1: To me, this one stands out a little bit as
Speaker 1: one that possibly might not be a victim and could
Speaker 1: have been misattributed, uh, to the to the mad butcher.
Speaker 1: That's just my personal feeling. I don't I don't know
Speaker 1: if anyone else is saying this, but it's the one
Speaker 1: that stands out to me as being slightly different, same
Speaker 1: as the same, same to me. Yeah, she uh, the
Speaker 1: killer clearly lacked a dismemberment plan in that case. Is
Speaker 1: that a band? Yeah? Are they good? Yeah? They were
Speaker 1: really good. They were maybe math rock. I think they
Speaker 1: were at the very least they were alternative. Victim nine
Speaker 1: was had his heart removed. Um. Victim ten had morphine
Speaker 1: in her system. And I think they're they're not quite
Speaker 1: sure how they all died. I think at one point
Speaker 1: they thought most of them died by the decapitation, but
Speaker 1: some were found with uh their blood completely drained from
Speaker 1: their body. Like I said, this one woman had morphine
Speaker 1: inter system, which could make sense. We'll get to something
Speaker 1: else later on of a potential victim that never happened,
Speaker 1: where drugs might have been a factor. But um, you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's sort of all. You know, there were men,
Speaker 1: they were women, There were black people, there were white people.
Speaker 1: There wasn't any real rhyme or reason, it seemed like,
Speaker 1: aside from the fact that they were probably culled from
Speaker 1: this area of Ohio, yes, uh. And the fact that
Speaker 1: you know the first two men were emasculated, um, that
Speaker 1: there were women involved too. That somebody's hard to been
Speaker 1: ripped out like there was. There was clearly a sexual
Speaker 1: element of the whole thing, which made the idea that
Speaker 1: they were men and women victims UM very confounded. You
Speaker 1: just don't normally see that in a sex killer. You
Speaker 1: see one or the other, and it's usually the sex
Speaker 1: that the person is oriented to. Um are the victims.
Speaker 1: And then you know, just to kind of to to
Speaker 1: cap that point off, the killer left victims eleven and
Speaker 1: twelve within a few yards of one another um on
Speaker 1: a dump like a trash dump, and one was a woman,
Speaker 1: Victim eleven was a woman, and victim twelve was a man.
Speaker 1: Should we take a break? We should because Cleveland doesn't
Speaker 1: know it at the time, but those of us looking
Speaker 1: through uh, looking backwards through history can tell you that
Speaker 1: this was the last canonical victims in August of night.
Speaker 1: So the killer, as far as anybody knows, is done.
Speaker 1: That's right, and most of the grizzling stuff is out
Speaker 1: of the way, and we'll be back to reveal the
Speaker 1: famous investigator right after this. How's that for a tease?
Speaker 1: It was I can't take it anymore, Chuck, please, please?
Speaker 1: Who is it? It's my favorite thing when you play
Speaker 1: coy Uh. It was Mr Elliott Nessus, very famous for
Speaker 1: being the head of the Untouchables, for putting uh Al
Speaker 1: Capone behind bars, good friend of Sean Connery's very good friend.
Speaker 1: Oh that was great. That wasn't very good, because you
Speaker 1: don't bring your knife to a gunfight. To bring a
Speaker 1: gun your dummy. Yeah, I think that was the line.
Speaker 1: If you wanted to do country, well, you gotta have
Speaker 1: ansh in there, right. But there was no sad didn't
Speaker 1: I I thought that was. I thought I nailed it.
Speaker 1: There aren't no s is in that sentence, right, They're implied.
Speaker 1: And I would have done that had there been ses
Speaker 1: don't bring a knife to a gun dunch. How's that right?
Speaker 1: You're burger gone your job? All right? Back to the
Speaker 1: serious stuff. Elliott Ness was the after that working what
Speaker 1: was that Chicago? I think, oh, yeah, that was He
Speaker 1: became the alcohol uh investigator in charge of the alcohol
Speaker 1: tax unit for Northern Ohio and August of thirty four,
Speaker 1: and then the Republican mayoral candidate Harold Burton, who would
Speaker 1: go on to win, said, you know what, Ness, you're
Speaker 1: a famous guy. I like the cut of your jib um.
Speaker 1: Let me make you in December nine the safety director
Speaker 1: for Cleveland, and let me nudge you towards this outstanding
Speaker 1: case that we have. So yeah, when he was hired,
Speaker 1: the the case wasn't quite clear that it was a
Speaker 1: big old case when he came in just after like
Speaker 1: a couple of months after victims one and two were found,
Speaker 1: and just a couple of weeks before flow Polilo was out,
Speaker 1: So it wasn't evident that that there was a serial
Speaker 1: murderer on the loose. Um, but that also means that
Speaker 1: Elliott Nest came in right at the beginning of this thing,
Speaker 1: so he was the public safety director for it. He
Speaker 1: became the face of the frustrated police effort to capture
Speaker 1: the Torso killer, right although the lead investigator, what was
Speaker 1: that guy's name, Peter Maurillo, Yeah, he was. He was
Speaker 1: I don't know about obsessed, but it became sort of
Speaker 1: his main focus of work was to tirelessly find out
Speaker 1: who this murderer was. And I assume that it's weird
Speaker 1: because I really don't know what a safety director was.
Speaker 1: I don't think is that even still a thing? Uh? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think there's a public safety director position still there.
Speaker 1: They basically are in charge of the police department, the
Speaker 1: fire department, all that stuff. You're there the head of that.
Speaker 1: They're like they probably the liaison between the mayor in
Speaker 1: those services, but not the guardian angels because they do
Speaker 1: what they want to do. Hey man, they're staying on
Speaker 1: their own too. Uh. The coroner A. J. Pierce of
Speaker 1: the case, I think he was the first corner on
Speaker 1: the first case, said you know what we need to do.
Speaker 1: We need to get together, we need to have a
Speaker 1: little summit and start sharing information. I'm gonna call it
Speaker 1: the Torso Clinic, which was interesting. I don't know if
Speaker 1: he did or the press did, yeah, either way, because
Speaker 1: the press was very much involved in this whole run obviously.
Speaker 1: But at this conference is where he first put forward
Speaker 1: a profile, which was this is someone who would not
Speaker 1: stand out in Kingsbury one. Uh, then someone who knew
Speaker 1: the area could blend in, uh, somebody, you know. We
Speaker 1: think it's a man who is a powerful man because
Speaker 1: they need to be able to you know, it takes
Speaker 1: a lot of work to dismember a body and to
Speaker 1: haul these bodies around and drop them off in different places.
Speaker 1: And we think he also might have some anatomical knowledge,
Speaker 1: not saying that he's necessarily a doctor or a surgeon, uh,
Speaker 1: kind of to jack the ripper thing. But but this,
Speaker 1: this person clearsly clearly knows their way around a knife
Speaker 1: in a scalpel. Yeah, because I mean, if you really
Speaker 1: closely examine a body and like look at the places
Speaker 1: where you know the body was separated with the knife,
Speaker 1: you can find hesitancy marks, you can find the hacking. Um,
Speaker 1: there's all sorts of clues and telltale signs and apparently
Speaker 1: this guy had a lot of confidence and had a
Speaker 1: lot of skill or knowledge about anatomy. So, like you said,
Speaker 1: maybe not a doctor, but at the very least a
Speaker 1: very skilled butcher who had studied human anatomy um before.
Speaker 1: But eventually they finally were like, this is probably some
Speaker 1: sort of doctor. Yeah, And I think they eventually learned
Speaker 1: that most of the victims died within a few dame
Speaker 1: a few days of being discovered, and most were moved,
Speaker 1: except for victim five, where they found a blood bath.
Speaker 1: You know that was this didn't happen to the other
Speaker 1: crime scenes. It was virtually no blood to be found,
Speaker 1: and in fact, I think one was completely drained of blood.
Speaker 1: Oh really, so that I mean that takes I don't
Speaker 1: know if that happened naturally just because of the nature
Speaker 1: of of dismemberment or it was a purposeful thing. But
Speaker 1: only one body was found kind of clearly murdered there, right,
Speaker 1: So um, yeah, I think that the fact that the
Speaker 1: blood wasn't on the scene and it wasn't in the
Speaker 1: body any longer means that had to go somewhere. So
Speaker 1: that the fact that they were dismembered um and the
Speaker 1: and packaged I mean, like a lot of them were found.
Speaker 1: You know. Um, the one unidentified tattooed man, his head
Speaker 1: was wrapped in trousers, but other people's were wrapped in
Speaker 1: newspaper or brown paper like they were meat. Um, someone
Speaker 1: was was put in a makeshift box. Um, there was.
Speaker 1: There was a lot of time dedicated to the dismemberment
Speaker 1: of these bodies, and that that that leaves a lot
Speaker 1: of evidence and you need a place where you're not
Speaker 1: going to be in erupted and that's not easy to
Speaker 1: come by. So that became a really like big point
Speaker 1: is you know, we were pretty sure that this person
Speaker 1: is is snatching victims from the from the Kingsbury Run area. Um,
Speaker 1: but where are they committing these acts? And they tried
Speaker 1: to find that that place as much as they tried
Speaker 1: to find the killer. Yeah, I mean that would be
Speaker 1: a big clue if they had some murder room, uh
Speaker 1: Dexter style. Sure, but just giveaway every time. That's coming back.
Speaker 1: By the way, I don't know if you ever watched Exter,
Speaker 1: what do you mean it's coming back? They're bringing Dexter
Speaker 1: back man with the original like Michael C. Hall. No, Yes,
Speaker 1: they are, indeed, And I had mixed feelings because we
Speaker 1: love that show for a long time, but it is
Speaker 1: the end. It is one of the shark jump here
Speaker 1: shows of all time. It's it's like the shark itself jumped,
Speaker 1: I think. So it's insane, it's amazing. I mean, I
Speaker 1: love Michael c Hell though. We were just now finishing
Speaker 1: six ft Under again, so I'm always happy to see
Speaker 1: him again. But I'll give it again. You see Colden July.
Speaker 1: M Mmm, no, what is that. It's a little bit
Speaker 1: like a straw Dogs type story. Um, but he's like
Speaker 1: having a battle Don Johnson. It's just really like, if
Speaker 1: you want I know, it's weird casting, but if you
Speaker 1: want to just experience like a constant, you know, mid
Speaker 1: to low level dread for two hours, Like, let's go
Speaker 1: ahead and watch that. It's well done in that respect.
Speaker 1: Or watch the Lighthouse. Probably it's probably better. It's so good.
Speaker 1: Let's just stop talking about this and talking about the
Speaker 1: Lighthouse for the rest of the time, all right. So, uh,
Speaker 1: Peter Morillo, who, like we said, was a lead detective,
Speaker 1: he's sort of obsessed with this thing. He starts not
Speaker 1: only focusing on uh, this land down by the river.
Speaker 1: But I didn't mean that, but that's what it was.
Speaker 1: But he started focusing on the rail roads and these
Speaker 1: these hoboes the railroads. Okay, you know where trains run
Speaker 1: on sure, yeah, I just never heard it pronounced the
Speaker 1: way you did, the first railroad. It was hilarious. I
Speaker 1: gotta lighten this up. So I were talking about this
Speaker 1: membered towards exactly. Um. So he started looking in these
Speaker 1: box cars and I don't I mean as hobo an
Speaker 1: offensive word. Can you still say that? Don't think so.
Speaker 1: I think it's a point of pride, a term of
Speaker 1: pride for people to still ride the rails. Okay. Um.
Speaker 1: So he's still out there doing his thing at this
Speaker 1: press conference, um Elliott and s ends up holding a
Speaker 1: meeting with the head of Scientific Investigation Bureau. His name
Speaker 1: was David Cowell's uh and an editor of the Cleveland Press. Um.
Speaker 1: So this is a big deal. They're actually getting the
Speaker 1: press involved at this point, right, But secretly, this wasn't
Speaker 1: a press conference. This is like a secret meeting. Oh
Speaker 1: no, no no, not a press conference at all. This was
Speaker 1: very much in secret. But he's involving the press, and
Speaker 1: they said, here's what we're gonna do. Ness says let's
Speaker 1: you go and aout eight tough guys that can go undercover,
Speaker 1: that that know a lot of bad guys in Cleveland
Speaker 1: and have all those connections, will get them the police
Speaker 1: support they need, and we'll fund them. How did they
Speaker 1: fund them with the press is money? What does that
Speaker 1: even mean? I don't know. I think that like maybe um,
Speaker 1: the owners of the newspapers chipped in, like the wealthy
Speaker 1: owners chipped in quietly to stuff off of the books.
Speaker 1: That's my impression of what you ever chipped in the
Speaker 1: most gut to break the story, Hender, But well no,
Speaker 1: I think at the same time, it was a technique
Speaker 1: for bringing the press into the fold so that there
Speaker 1: weren't outsiders drumming up trouble for the cops anymore. Because
Speaker 1: the Cleveland press really made the They didn't make the
Speaker 1: police look bad. They pointed out just how badly the
Speaker 1: police were handling this or ineffectively, which is not to
Speaker 1: say that the police were um not trying really really hard.
Speaker 1: Top postedly. I saw a figure of ten thousand suspects
Speaker 1: were interviewed over four years during the course of this investigation.
Speaker 1: They just couldn't find the guy. They could not find
Speaker 1: this killer, and the press kind of almost gleefully kept
Speaker 1: pointing that out right, So this is in a way
Speaker 1: attempt to assuage them and bring them into the inner
Speaker 1: circle a bit, right. That's that was my impression. Yeah,
Speaker 1: all right, So the police are they got these undercover
Speaker 1: guys working there. They're seeing they're checking cars randomly at
Speaker 1: all hours. They're canvassing laundromats and places where you wash
Speaker 1: your clothes. So you know, if there are people like
Speaker 1: trying to get bloodstains out of something, they're kind of
Speaker 1: doing everything they can at this point. Uh. And this
Speaker 1: is where the Coen Brothers sort of a moment comes in,
Speaker 1: which is in Sandusky a dog and Sandusky is about now,
Speaker 1: it's about an hour or ten minutes away by car.
Speaker 1: I don't know what it would have been back then,
Speaker 1: but probably less than two hours, I would say, even
Speaker 1: in an old timy car. A dog shows up in
Speaker 1: Sandusky with a human leg in its mouth. I want
Speaker 1: to say that literally happened in a Coen Brothers movie.
Speaker 1: It might have just been a bone of a body,
Speaker 1: but I can't think of which one it might be.
Speaker 1: Someone will someone will write in and tell us, But
Speaker 1: it sounds like a Barton Fink kind of thing. It is,
Speaker 1: but it's not, or I might be thinking of the
Speaker 1: kids who ripped the two pay off the guy in
Speaker 1: uh Miller's Crossing. I remember that part, although I remember
Speaker 1: one of the neighbors lost his to pay in the
Speaker 1: burbs and they thought it was Evidently, there's definitely a movie,
Speaker 1: it might not have been Coming Brothers where dog shows
Speaker 1: up with the body part in its mouth. Probably more
Speaker 1: than one movie, but this dog shows up in its
Speaker 1: mouth and Marello goes to Sandusky and it turns out
Speaker 1: that the leg was actually surgically removed during a during
Speaker 1: a real surgery, not a not a serial killer surgery,
Speaker 1: and just didn't get disposed of right, ended up in
Speaker 1: the lake, ended up in the dog's mouth, right. But
Speaker 1: the police were so hyped up at the time that
Speaker 1: they traveled Sandusky to chase down this lead, which, like
Speaker 1: all the other ones, went absolutely no where um. And
Speaker 1: so there was there was again like just a tremendous
Speaker 1: amount of public pressure, including something you mentioned earlier, to
Speaker 1: a lot of allegations and accusations that the police weren't
Speaker 1: doing enough because these people were not wealthy, were not
Speaker 1: well thought of, They were, you know, very poor. The
Speaker 1: poorest of the poor during the Great Depression were the
Speaker 1: ones who were having who are suffering this this serial
Speaker 1: killer UM. And so there was a tremendous amount of
Speaker 1: of pressure UM. And I think my impression is is
Speaker 1: that that pressure UM is one of the I guess
Speaker 1: the thing that drove Elliott Ness to Um to do
Speaker 1: something really terrible. Because the killer was picking from the
Speaker 1: shanty towns of Kingsbury Run. Elliott Ness got it in
Speaker 1: his head that if you did away with Kingsbury Run,
Speaker 1: you do away with the killings. And so he raided
Speaker 1: the homeless camps at Kingsbury Run and roused at everybody
Speaker 1: and then ordered the place burned to the ground. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I'm sure he thought this was a great idea
Speaker 1: at the time, but he really didn't think it through
Speaker 1: because the people of Cleveland did not take kindly to
Speaker 1: that Um. They they hated him for what he did.
Speaker 1: And this was during the depression and everyone was struggling basically,
Speaker 1: or not everyone, but most people were struggling at this
Speaker 1: point unemployment rate of in Cleveland, and so the idea
Speaker 1: of this big shot Chicago g man coming in and
Speaker 1: and basically running these homeless people out of their only
Speaker 1: option and burning it to the ground was not a
Speaker 1: good look at all. However, it that was there were
Speaker 1: no more murders after that. I know, it's strangely, it
Speaker 1: seemed to have worked, and it depends we'll talk more about.
Speaker 1: You know, a lot of different views of whether the
Speaker 1: murders stopped or not. But as far as canonical victims go,
Speaker 1: this this he burned the place to the ground two
Speaker 1: days after victims eleven and twelve or found, and after
Speaker 1: that there were no more victims. So it didn't solve
Speaker 1: the murders by any stretch of the imagination, but it
Speaker 1: seemed to have put an end to him. Weirdly, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think before we take a break, we should mention
Speaker 1: there was one and get into the who we think
Speaker 1: it's probably the real suspect. There was one suspect in
Speaker 1: Cuyahoga County, uh that the sheriff brought in name. He
Speaker 1: was a bricklayer named Frank dole Zeal who did confess
Speaker 1: he was brought in for the murder of Flow Palilo,
Speaker 1: originally because he had lived with her for a little while,
Speaker 1: but supposedly he knew Rose Wallis and Edward ANDREWSI as well.
Speaker 1: But then they looked into it, and by all accounts
Speaker 1: that confession was um not just induced, but in the
Speaker 1: days where you would literally beat a victim into confessing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and um then murder him in his cell after he
Speaker 1: recanted his confession. So was he murdered. Yeah, Well, he
Speaker 1: he hung himself, but he hung himself from a hook
Speaker 1: that was shorter than he was, which I mean, I
Speaker 1: guess if you really really want to die, you might
Speaker 1: you you could do that, you could overcome them the
Speaker 1: urge to stand up, disinclination towards self harm, I guess
Speaker 1: you'd put it. But uh, his his friends at the
Speaker 1: time seemed to be like now that he was murdered.
Speaker 1: So it's at the very least his confession was beaten
Speaker 1: out of him. And no, no serious scholar of the
Speaker 1: crime believes that um Frank do zeal was was the killer.
Speaker 1: He didn't have any there was no evidence whatsoever any
Speaker 1: kind of surgical knowledge. There was like a lot of boxes.
Speaker 1: He just didn't check. It was basically, uh, he knew flow,
Speaker 1: and he may have known Edward and ROSSI, and he
Speaker 1: may have known Rose Wallace and the sheriff basically ran
Speaker 1: him in very publicly. All right, So let's take that
Speaker 1: break and then we'll come back and talk a little
Speaker 1: bit more about the investigation and who people now believe
Speaker 1: committed these horrible murders right after this, all right, so
Speaker 1: Elliott Ness has run everyone out of the Kingsbury run camps.
Speaker 1: Did not go over well. He then says, here's what
Speaker 1: we'll do. Let's skirt the warrant rules so we don't
Speaker 1: have to require warrants, and let's get together. Since I'm
Speaker 1: the safety director and I controlled the fire department too,
Speaker 1: let's get let's go around and start searching for quote,
Speaker 1: fire code violations end quote. Basically, so they don't have
Speaker 1: to get any kind of warrants and they can just
Speaker 1: basically go into people's houses and and just at will
Speaker 1: and search and do whatever they want to under the
Speaker 1: guise of searching for fire code violations. He was desperate,
Speaker 1: He was very desperate. And again they were looking not
Speaker 1: just for the killer, but really, more than anything, they
Speaker 1: were looking for that grizzly workshop, as the Cleveland plain
Speaker 1: Dealer had put in a place where he was, you know,
Speaker 1: draining the victims of their blood and dismembering their bodies.
Speaker 1: They didn't turn anything up, but it really kind of
Speaker 1: goes to show like just what lengths elliott Ness, who
Speaker 1: was considered like this squeaky clean law man was willing
Speaker 1: to go to this is extraordinarily um unconstitutional and underhanded,
Speaker 1: and he went he went to that degree and well
Speaker 1: beyond it turned out actually too very much. Uh. And
Speaker 1: I think we're at the point now where we can
Speaker 1: talk about this mystery person, right, Yeah, this is this
Speaker 1: is why I said. He went way beyond you know,
Speaker 1: um unlawful search of homes. He actually engaged in what
Speaker 1: amounts to kidney apping of a private citizen who he
Speaker 1: thought was the killer. Yeah, and he kept it very secret.
Speaker 1: He even used a pseudonym for this person. He called
Speaker 1: this person this gentleman gay lord Sundheim. Pretty good name,
Speaker 1: a good hotel check in name. Uh. And privately he
Speaker 1: you know, word gets around a little bit what's going on,
Speaker 1: But privately he would describe this person as an alcoholic,
Speaker 1: uh maybe bisexual, A doctor who came from a wealthy
Speaker 1: family and who had a relative in Congress who was
Speaker 1: protecting this person and took this man under the dark
Speaker 1: of night to a hotel room in Cleveland held there
Speaker 1: without charging him for two weeks where they interrogated this person. Yes,
Speaker 1: and apparently the guy who this gay lord Sundheim was
Speaker 1: in the middle of a bender when he was picked up,
Speaker 1: and uh, he had um. He was so profoundly drunk
Speaker 1: that it took him three days to become sober again.
Speaker 1: Not buy that, I don't, but when he when he did,
Speaker 1: I know, But you got to add those two. Um,
Speaker 1: thank you for keeping it, keeping it even keel though
Speaker 1: they were a little rough, and you're always okay the
Speaker 1: next day. I don't know what you're talking about. It's
Speaker 1: so weird, like alcohol affects us so differently. Man, I
Speaker 1: can have like a drink and a half these days
Speaker 1: and I'm like hating life the next day. No, I'm
Speaker 1: not talking about a hangover, but you're not still drunk
Speaker 1: the next day and two days or three days. I
Speaker 1: think that's what they were saying, is that this guy
Speaker 1: was he had like a hangover stupor basically that was
Speaker 1: my impression, not that he was still just flying high,
Speaker 1: but that hating it all right for three day But regardless,
Speaker 1: they kept him whether he was sober as a judge
Speaker 1: or you know, drunk as a skunk when they picked
Speaker 1: him up. They held them in this hotel room without
Speaker 1: charge and outside of the legal system for two weeks
Speaker 1: and interrogated him for up to eight hours a day. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I think he did it, so who cares. That's
Speaker 1: exactly how Elliott ness was approaching this, and again everybody
Speaker 1: thought he was this squeaky clean lawman and he's engaged
Speaker 1: in kidnapping. But the thing is, he brought in the
Speaker 1: guy who was one of the early inventors of the polygraph.
Speaker 1: He invented the Keeler polygraph, and it was called that
Speaker 1: because his name was Leonard Keeler, and he I think
Speaker 1: he brought him from Chicago and Leonard Keeler administered a
Speaker 1: couple of different polygraph tests to this gay Lord Sondheim
Speaker 1: and said, if this isn't your man, I might as
Speaker 1: well throw my machine out the window if I say
Speaker 1: anything else, because that guy, that's the guy. It's definitely
Speaker 1: the guy. You gotta take that with a grain of salt,
Speaker 1: because especially today, polygraphs are just total junk science. But
Speaker 1: it's certainly um confirmed Nessa's suspicions that much more at
Speaker 1: the time, I think that that polygraph back then was
Speaker 1: there wasn't even machine. Keeler would just sit there and
Speaker 1: look for a bit of sweat to break out on
Speaker 1: the forehead, then punched the guy if it did. That's
Speaker 1: right exactly so Uh. The case was never solved. Um
Speaker 1: Ness's reputation obviously took a big hit. He eventually got
Speaker 1: out of Cleveland after a drunk driving hit and run
Speaker 1: accident that he was involved with and tried to cover up.
Speaker 1: So he left in great shame. But back to this
Speaker 1: gay lord sundheime. Later on, many years later, there were
Speaker 1: crime investigators and writers who put two and two together
Speaker 1: and basically identified and in fact, in one case, crime
Speaker 1: writer Maryland Bardsley came out and said, yeah, this this
Speaker 1: is who this person was. It was a former World
Speaker 1: War One Army medic who was discharged for mental instability
Speaker 1: following head trauma, which was big warning lights going off. Uh.
Speaker 1: And he was an alcoholic another big warning light. And
Speaker 1: his name was Francis Edward Sweeney, who also happens to
Speaker 1: have a relative in Congress, right, a guy named Representative
Speaker 1: Martin Sweeney who was a huge critic of the Burton administration,
Speaker 1: of which Elliott Ness was a major part um, and
Speaker 1: he was just the kind of guy who was a
Speaker 1: political opponent to the degree that I'm sure Elliott Ness
Speaker 1: thought if he tried to arrest Clarence or um Francis Sweeney,
Speaker 1: he would, uh, he would he would be obstructed, you know,
Speaker 1: from up on high by this congress person. Whether he
Speaker 1: would have or not, I don't know. I saw some
Speaker 1: references to the idea that Martin Sweeney was well aware
Speaker 1: that Elliott Ness was looking at his cousin for this
Speaker 1: and was already getting in the way. Um, But I
Speaker 1: only saw that on one place, so I'm not sure
Speaker 1: if that's the case or not. Either way, his presence
Speaker 1: and his connection to Francis Sweeney was enough that Elliott
Speaker 1: Nest never charged Francis Sweeney, despite apparently going to his
Speaker 1: grave believing that that Dr Francis Edward Sweeney was the
Speaker 1: Cleveland Torso murderer. Have you seen a picture of the guy, dude,
Speaker 1: he looks like the definition of a towards our murderer.
Speaker 1: If you who if you like seriously, you have to
Speaker 1: be careful with that stuff, because can you ever end
Speaker 1: up a juror you can't be like you look like
Speaker 1: a killer. This guy looks like a Torso murderer. You're
Speaker 1: exactly right. Uh. The quick sidebar, I'm not sure if
Speaker 1: I ever mentioned it on this show. I know I've
Speaker 1: talked about on a movie Crush, but I want to
Speaker 1: recommend this great, great documentary And forgive me if I'm
Speaker 1: repeating myself here, but it's called Crazy not Insane. Uh.
Speaker 1: It's an HBO documentary about this doctor, doctor Dorothy at
Speaker 1: no Lewis, who basically spent her life trying to understand
Speaker 1: serial killers and one of the main she was kind
Speaker 1: of one of the first people to really try and
Speaker 1: understand what's actually going on, and she put together I
Speaker 1: think like three very common uh common commonalities among serial killers.
Speaker 1: But one of them is is head trauma. And that's
Speaker 1: why this really stands out of me about Frances Edward Sweeney,
Speaker 1: was that he was discharged from the Army because of
Speaker 1: head trauma leading to mental instability. It's a commonality and
Speaker 1: most serial killers is some sort of head trauma, especially
Speaker 1: when you're younger. Wow, that's interesting. I did not know that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and the I may have thought I talked about on this,
Speaker 1: but it was uh the uh who was the guy
Speaker 1: in l a that that also just had a great
Speaker 1: docuseries on the night Stalker. Richard Ramirez he suffered multiple
Speaker 1: head traumas when he was younger as well. So I
Speaker 1: think it's it's I can't remember the third one. It's
Speaker 1: head trauma, some sort of physical uh, and even sexual
Speaker 1: abuse as a child. And then there was like one
Speaker 1: more thing and those are like that's just a recipe
Speaker 1: for ending up some sort of sociopath or serial killer.
Speaker 1: I think the third one is disappointing birthday presents. Yeah. Maybe,
Speaker 1: So it's a great you'd really love it's a really
Speaker 1: good documentary. Um, yeah, I'll check that out for sure.
Speaker 1: It sounds like it's totally at my alley. I'm actually
Speaker 1: a dog that I've not heard of it. Don't be
Speaker 1: a dog. I'm I'm a little dog, all right, come back. So,
Speaker 1: like you said, Marilyn Bardsley confirmed from one of the
Speaker 1: investigators that Francis Sweeney was gay Lord Sondheim. But that
Speaker 1: does not mean that Francis Sweeney was the Torso murderer.
Speaker 1: Although again, like you were saying, if you look at
Speaker 1: a picture of Francis Sweeney, that's totally the Torso murderer. Well,
Speaker 1: another stuff, you know, the head trauma, the medical training.
Speaker 1: He was a surgeon in residence at Saint Alexis Hospital.
Speaker 1: His career deteriorated because of his drinking right around the
Speaker 1: time the first murderer victims started showing up to Yeah,
Speaker 1: he also had a deal apparently with a local mortuary
Speaker 1: where they would give him bodies to practice surgery on,
Speaker 1: which would explain maybe the kill room or the dismemberment room.
Speaker 1: He would have a place to go, uh and dispose
Speaker 1: of these bodies without you know, they're being a big
Speaker 1: blood trail, you know, right, I mean, this is a
Speaker 1: place where it wouldn't seem weird that somebody was decapitating
Speaker 1: a body or draining the body of all of its blood.
Speaker 1: Like that's exactly the kind of place. And that didn't
Speaker 1: turn up until years later, And it was thanks to
Speaker 1: a guy named James Baddall who's written some books on
Speaker 1: it um on the Torso murderers, And he interviewed one
Speaker 1: of the one of the early investigators and found out
Speaker 1: that he had privileges at that funeral home and started
Speaker 1: to put two and two together. Yeah, there was one
Speaker 1: a couple of other things. Um, he did send taunting
Speaker 1: letters to Elliott Ness for years. Uh. Some one of
Speaker 1: them was signed F. E. Sweeney paranoidal Nemesis. But was
Speaker 1: this after he had been kidnapped by Ness? Yes, so
Speaker 1: he knew Ness by this time. And he also didn't
Speaker 1: say like I didn't you didn't catch me anything like that.
Speaker 1: I get the impression it was more like, you didn't
Speaker 1: catch the guy. You're terrible at this, everybody hates you.
Speaker 1: But still taunting stuff. But yes, this would have been
Speaker 1: after he was kidnapped, because this was up into like
Speaker 1: the forties. Yeah, that's true. Uh. And then I think
Speaker 1: to me, one of the biggest red flags pointing in
Speaker 1: the direction of enye is I mentioned a nearer victim
Speaker 1: earlier in the episode. This was a transient. His name
Speaker 1: was E. Meal Fronick, and he was living in Cleveland
Speaker 1: and thirty four and one day he was lured into
Speaker 1: a doctor's office on the second floor along Broadway Avenue
Speaker 1: and the doctor said, here, I'll give you some shoes
Speaker 1: and a meal if you come up here. Frown. It
Speaker 1: goes up, eats a little bit of the meal, starts
Speaker 1: to feel lightheaded, and bolts and makes it to a
Speaker 1: train car and basically passes out for three days, and
Speaker 1: then later on I think in night was being interviewed
Speaker 1: after the cops here about this old Morello goes to
Speaker 1: pick come up, and they narrowed down the area to
Speaker 1: fifty streets along Broadway, where Sweeney had a doctor's office. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he couldn't specifically say that was the place where it happened,
Speaker 1: and that that author James but All says that he
Speaker 1: thinks he came in the back way rather than the
Speaker 1: front way where they were showing him. Um and and
Speaker 1: but he did say that's he had an office right there,
Speaker 1: right around that area, so uh, and he was there
Speaker 1: at the time. So I mean that's some pretty serious
Speaker 1: circumstantial stuff. But the thing is there's no smoking gun,
Speaker 1: there's no anything that says definitively and we probably will
Speaker 1: never have anything definitively it says it's Francis Sweeney. So
Speaker 1: we've kind of reached this point, this plateau where it's
Speaker 1: like you just basically choose a side. Either you know
Speaker 1: it's Francis Sweeney or it wasn't. And some people who
Speaker 1: say no, I don't think it was Francis Sweeney makes
Speaker 1: some pretty good cases. Um, there were other similar murders
Speaker 1: in the area starting in the twenties and going into
Speaker 1: the fifties. Um, that that really bore a lot of
Speaker 1: resemblance to the Torso murders. Um. And then other people say, okay, um,
Speaker 1: I feel the opposite of that, where there's like I
Speaker 1: don't think Rose Wallace was one of the victims. I
Speaker 1: think there were multiple killers doing similar ish stuff, maybe
Speaker 1: copycats even, um, And that it wasn't all just one person. Um, there,
Speaker 1: there's there's, there's is, and there's probably always going to
Speaker 1: be a lot of competing theories about what, you know,
Speaker 1: who is responsible. Yeah. The one theory that it wasn't
Speaker 1: him that I don't buy. Did you say where he
Speaker 1: was living in Sandusky? No? Huh? All right, So here's
Speaker 1: the deal. He Francis Sweeney was apparently enrolled or checked
Speaker 1: into the Soldiers and Sailors Home in Sandusky, which I
Speaker 1: guess is an old like a veteran's home, right, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think yes, So that's what it seems like. So
Speaker 1: he was checked in there, and one of the reasons
Speaker 1: that people say he didn't do it was because he
Speaker 1: was checked in in this place in Sandusky, like a
Speaker 1: couple hours away, and I just don't buy that. They
Speaker 1: later came out and said, you know, they could come
Speaker 1: and go as they pleased. He could easily have if
Speaker 1: he didn't want to get caught be committing these murders
Speaker 1: in Cleveland and then going back to Sandusky as well. Right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: because he was there voluntarily, so he would not have
Speaker 1: been watched or monitored, or they wouldn't have kept tabs
Speaker 1: on him. And when they figured this out, it was
Speaker 1: years later, so no one would have been able to
Speaker 1: recall where he was or wasn't on a certain day.
Speaker 1: You know, I think it's Sweeney. Yeah, I think there's
Speaker 1: because of this picture, but there's so there were other
Speaker 1: murders in the area that you know, it could have
Speaker 1: still been Sweeney. To Some people connect the Black Dolly
Speaker 1: a murder to it because there was a taunting note
Speaker 1: that the cops got that said the cops can rest
Speaker 1: easy because the killers moved to sunny California. Um, but
Speaker 1: if you look at the Black Dolly murder, there's really
Speaker 1: not a lot of resemblance between the two. Um. The
Speaker 1: ms are really rather different, so that's probably not the case. Well,
Speaker 1: if you want to know more about the Cleveland, Torso murders.
Speaker 1: There's a whole rabbit hole on the internet and in books,
Speaker 1: including one by James Bidal and another by Maryland Bardsley.
Speaker 1: UM that you can follow, and uh, if you do,
Speaker 1: good luck with that. Since I said good luck with that,
Speaker 1: it's time for a listener mail. I'm gonna call this.
Speaker 1: Uh we we did not help out this, gentleman. Okay, Hey, guys,
Speaker 1: love the podcast. I've been listening for the past several years.
Speaker 1: I've almost gotten through. The whole library has some left
Speaker 1: from apparently. I work as a music musical instrument repair
Speaker 1: technician at a local university and independently in Greensboro, North Carolina,
Speaker 1: so I usually listen while I work on repadding clarinets
Speaker 1: and cleaning two butts. Nice cool job. Anyway, I was
Speaker 1: listening to your show this evening on Korean fan death,
Speaker 1: remember that or work? We talked about it. I don't
Speaker 1: think it was all about that, but it was. It
Speaker 1: was a short stuff about it. Was it? Okay? I
Speaker 1: remember that being like a top ten or something. Anyway,
Speaker 1: immediately thought, finally a way that I can find some
Speaker 1: legit reason for getting rid of the fan in our room.
Speaker 1: My fiance, Abby loves having a fan and that noise
Speaker 1: when you go to sleep. It's something I can deal with,
Speaker 1: but honestly I do not care for it. So when
Speaker 1: I finally got home, I told Abby, hey, we got
Speaker 1: a serious episode. Stuff you should know we should listen to.
Speaker 1: I started the episode without pre screening and trusted you
Speaker 1: guys would pull through for me. Needless to say, an
Speaker 1: interesting episode, but I did not get the confirmation bias
Speaker 1: I was looking for. Instead, we had a good laugh
Speaker 1: in a great evening, looking forward to getting the book,
Speaker 1: want you guys the best, and looking forward to anymore.
Speaker 1: And that is from John Goodman. Holy cow, John Goodman,
Speaker 1: we love you. In the Coen Brothers stuff. His name
Speaker 1: is John good I'm gonna plug his business. Goodman Custom
Speaker 1: would winds. If you're in the Greensboro, North Carolina area
Speaker 1: and you need that clarinet repadded, go to John Goodman
Speaker 1: for sure. And even if you're not, it's probably worth
Speaker 1: the drive, right, I mean, we're else you gonna do it, Charlotte, Yeah,
Speaker 1: come on keep back now. Well, thanks a lot, John Goodman.
Speaker 1: We appreciate that. Sorry we couldn't help you output at
Speaker 1: least you enjoyed the episode and ultimately in that what
Speaker 1: counts Yes. If you want to get in touch of this,
Speaker 1: like John Goodman did, you can send us an email
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