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Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff you should know, a production of I

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, you're welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh.

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Speaker 1: There's Chuck. Jerry's out there somewhere with a magnifying glass

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Speaker 1: and toothpick. We don't know what toothpicks for, but this

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Speaker 1: is stuff you should not Yes, content warning episode, everybody.

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Speaker 1: This is one of our I was about to stay rare.

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Speaker 1: They're they're fairly rare, but one of our true crime

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Speaker 1: episodes that is very grizzly, gruesome, gruesome, but took place

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen thirties, so there's something about old and

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Speaker 1: gruesome that makes it a little more palatable for me. Totally.

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Speaker 1: I don't know why, but you're absolutely right time, I

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Speaker 1: guess you know. Yeah, he heals all wounds to murders. Yes,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't. Well, heals all wounds except for some of

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Speaker 1: the things that happened in the Torso murders, because you

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Speaker 1: can't come from that. It's pretty crazy. You you were

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Speaker 1: familiar with the Torso murders already, right, I had heard

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Speaker 1: of these, and the more I read about them, the

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Speaker 1: more I was shocked at that there wasn't a good

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Speaker 1: period movie about this. Yeah. Absolutely, so But if you

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Speaker 1: haven't heard the Torso Killer, that's fine, You're You're definitely

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Speaker 1: not alone. A lot of people haven't, which is kind

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Speaker 1: of surprising because these are they're unsolved murders. There were

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Speaker 1: a lot of them, and you know, they took place

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Speaker 1: in the background of a city that was like driven

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Speaker 1: into a frenzy by this ghastly serial murderer who was

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Speaker 1: who continued their murders despite this extraordinarily large, you know,

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Speaker 1: man hunt to try to find them, an unsuccessful man

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Speaker 1: hunt still to this day. Yeah, I mean, it has

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Speaker 1: all the makings of a good movie. Um, it's got

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Speaker 1: a and we'll we'll reveal who this person is. We'll

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Speaker 1: hang onto it for a second. But they had a

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Speaker 1: famous investigator. Oh sorry, yes, and he definitely was the

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Speaker 1: famous investigating Yeah you thought I meant who the murderer was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you've got some false starts. You've got some um Coen

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Speaker 1: Brothers esque whimsy with with the dog discovery. I thought

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Speaker 1: you'd like that. Yeah, I did like that, And um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it has all the makings of a great movie in

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Speaker 1: a cool period setting, which was depression era nineteen thirties Cleveland, Ohia,

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Speaker 1: which is almost indistinguishable from current day Cleveland. Come on,

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Speaker 1: we love Hey man, I'm from Toledo. I can totally

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Speaker 1: backs Detroit. I was. That's my birthright. That is your birthright. Um.

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Speaker 1: So let's go back to September of when a woman's

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Speaker 1: torso is washed up on the shore of Lake Erie.

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Speaker 1: Her legs are amputated below the knee. There is no head,

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Speaker 1: which is why I said torso. And it's a suspicious

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Speaker 1: way to find a body, a very suspicious way. She

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Speaker 1: was never identified. They called her the Lady of the Lake.

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Speaker 1: And this was just sort of the beginnings. Nothing was

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Speaker 1: put together at this point because it would be two

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Speaker 1: years before any other murders took place, and that they

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Speaker 1: finally sort of put together that the Lady of the

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Speaker 1: Lake was perhaps Victim zero, uh, really victim one, but

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Speaker 1: they called her Victim zero of who would become known

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Speaker 1: as the Torso murderer or the mad Butcher of Kingsbury. Yes, um,

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Speaker 1: Kingsbury run. And like you said, it would be about

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Speaker 1: two years before they started to connect the dots. But

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Speaker 1: in that time between the time the Lady of the

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Speaker 1: Lake was found, um about a year past and then

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden, two more bodies were found, and

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden, because two bodies were found together,

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Speaker 1: this really started to capture people's attention to the lady

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Speaker 1: of the lake. It was a weird thing. It was

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Speaker 1: a terrible thing to find, but it was singular. This was,

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Speaker 1: you know, like by definition, not singular, finding two bodies

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Speaker 1: at once that were both dismembered. Um. And they were

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Speaker 1: found in the area of Kingsbury Run, which is where

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Speaker 1: the mad butcher take takes his name. That's right, Um.

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Speaker 1: They were both men. In this case, they were uh,

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Speaker 1: they were castrated. They were also decapitated, which would become

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Speaker 1: sort of a signature. The decapitation and in any kind

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Speaker 1: of dismembering really would become the signature hallmark of this murderer. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And it's interesting in that victim, one of these two men,

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Speaker 1: was actually one of the only ones that they got

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Speaker 1: a fairly positive I d for Um actually got some

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Speaker 1: fingerprints and it matched a man named Edward Uh Andrewsi.

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Speaker 1: And he was sort of a petty thief that had

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Speaker 1: you know, the police had brought in before. So he

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Speaker 1: was believed to be gay and this if he was,

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Speaker 1: you know, which all accounts should say that he was.

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Speaker 1: This was at a time when in the nineteen thirties,

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Speaker 1: certainly it was still illegal, and it was also listed

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Speaker 1: as a mental disorder in the to call not the

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Speaker 1: d m V, d U the d m V. The

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Speaker 1: d m V didn't look too highly on it either. No,

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Speaker 1: that's right. So he I think was one of only

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Speaker 1: two that was ever even positively identified of what would

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Speaker 1: end up being probably maybe twelve murders. Yes. Um. And again,

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Speaker 1: these guys were found together, not together, like they were

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Speaker 1: like within, you know, a very short distance of one another,

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Speaker 1: so that they were found virtually at the same time.

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Speaker 1: And whenever you find, you know, a body missing its head,

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Speaker 1: that that is attention grabbing. And when you find two

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Speaker 1: bodies both missing their heads, that really starts to get

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Speaker 1: the presses juices running. Um. And like we said, these

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Speaker 1: were found around Kingsbury Run, and Kingsbury Run is basically

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Speaker 1: like an old riverbed that cuts through Um. I believe

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Speaker 1: the west side of Cleveland. Uh No, I'm sorry that

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Speaker 1: I think the east side of Cleveland down to the

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Speaker 1: Coyahoga River, and it was basically like the place where

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Speaker 1: all of the oil companies and all of the heavy

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Speaker 1: industry along the river and along the lake would dump

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Speaker 1: all of their waste. The city put a sewer in there.

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Speaker 1: It was just meant to be kind of like a

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Speaker 1: waste land, like a literal wasteland. Um. And it kind

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Speaker 1: of stayed that way until the depression hit. And by

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Speaker 1: the time the depression had things were so bad that

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Speaker 1: people were looking to to basically live wherever they could

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Speaker 1: for free, and they started taking up residents in Kingsbury Run.

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Speaker 1: So by the time the Kingsbury Run murders, the Tords,

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Speaker 1: the Torso murders started, Um, this was like a full fledged,

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Speaker 1: full swing shanty town. Basically a Great Depression era Hoover town.

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Speaker 1: It's what they call them, Yeah, exactly. Um. So it

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Speaker 1: was a Graham scene down there anyway. Uh, certainly the

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Speaker 1: fringes of society. Um. During the course of the investigation,

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Speaker 1: there were accusations of the press that they weren't working

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Speaker 1: as hard as they needed to because these were people

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Speaker 1: on the fringes of society and sort of forgotten about.

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Speaker 1: And I think one of the other people identified. It

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Speaker 1: was a few months later in January nineteen thirty six,

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Speaker 1: when they found the body of Flow Palilo Florence Pollilo

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Speaker 1: was a waitress and bartender and sex worker who was

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Speaker 1: discovered once again dismembered, wrapped in newspaper and a couple

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Speaker 1: of bushel baskets, and then about a week and a

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Speaker 1: half later found other parts of her body. So she

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Speaker 1: was sort of found in in it's very grizzly, but

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Speaker 1: found in pieces over the course of a week and

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Speaker 1: a half in different places. Right, So, so far as

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Speaker 1: far as anybody can tell, we're up to three and

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Speaker 1: possibly four victims if you include the Lady of the Lake.

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Speaker 1: But it wasn't until the following June, about six months

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Speaker 1: after flow Palilo was discovered, because again, remember these people

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Speaker 1: were they actually lived on the fringe of society. So

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Speaker 1: just like today, just like Robert picked in the pig

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Speaker 1: farmer from Vancouver, so many other serial killers um find

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Speaker 1: their victims um and like the just I guess, the

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Speaker 1: lowest stations of society because they're the most vulnerable, they

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Speaker 1: have the least protection, And that's kind of what was

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Speaker 1: going on. That's why it took so many victims for

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Speaker 1: the press to finally be like, Okay, there's something really

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Speaker 1: going on here. And finally in June, I believe of

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Speaker 1: ninety six, victim number four as far as canonical victims go,

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Speaker 1: but possibly the fifth victim was discovered. Um, his head

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Speaker 1: was found first by two boys who are playing hookey

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Speaker 1: and fishing along the Coyahoga. No, I can't because they

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Speaker 1: found like a bald up pair of trousers and I

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Speaker 1: guess grabbed them and found that there's something in it.

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Speaker 1: When they opened it up, there was the head of

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Speaker 1: a man in his twenties. But I've never been identified,

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Speaker 1: like so many of these victims. Yeah, and not to

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Speaker 1: trivialize any of this, but again, that stuff is very

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Speaker 1: ripe for for movie making. Totally, this whole thing is,

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Speaker 1: and it really is surprising that no one's done this yet,

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Speaker 1: Like you wouldn't you know, you would write something like

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Speaker 1: that in a screenplay and this actually happened. There's so

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Speaker 1: there's I didn't see. I haven't read it, but there's

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Speaker 1: a graphic novel and maybe it's a series called Torso

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Speaker 1: that is um about all this, and I'm guessing that

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Speaker 1: would probably be a pretty good basis for the movie. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so victim for uh, they were making great efforts to

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Speaker 1: find out who this man was. So they actually, um,

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Speaker 1: the police circulated a photo of his face and made

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Speaker 1: a death mask. If you don't know what a death

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Speaker 1: mask is, I encourage you to go listen to our

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Speaker 1: episode on death masks. It's basically what you would think.

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Speaker 1: It's a it's a recreation of this man's head and

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Speaker 1: they put this thing along with a tattoo map. He

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Speaker 1: had tattoos all over himself. Um, an illustrated map of

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Speaker 1: his tattoos in this death mask on display at the

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Speaker 1: Great Lakes Exposition of nineteen thirty six, where you know,

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Speaker 1: a hundred thousand people could walk. I mean it was

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Speaker 1: a smart idea in one way, because they had a

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Speaker 1: you know, could blast it out in the best way

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Speaker 1: possible to try and identify who this person was. But

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Speaker 1: it was also again like something from a movie. These

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Speaker 1: people going to an exposition all of a sudden are

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Speaker 1: walking behy these this uh tattoo map and the death

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Speaker 1: mask of this man. Uh. And I'm sure the question

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Speaker 1: came up, like, well, why is it? Where's the rest

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Speaker 1: of his body? Why didn't they just show pictures of

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Speaker 1: the tattoos. They're like, stop asking questions, do you know

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Speaker 1: the guy or not? No, go get some ice. Cream exactly,

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Speaker 1: move along. Nothing to see here. But yeah, despite that,

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Speaker 1: you know, very public um search for an identification. He

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Speaker 1: was never still has never been identified, and his tattoos

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Speaker 1: were really he had people's names tattooed on him. He

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Speaker 1: had a cartoon character named Jigs tattooed on him. So

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Speaker 1: this guy, you know, you could see his face, they

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Speaker 1: had all the tattoos, and he still has never been identified.

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Speaker 1: But his his discovery, and I think the very public,

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Speaker 1: like the cops circle related a photo of his head

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Speaker 1: on a gurney in the morgue at first before they

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Speaker 1: made the death mass, among other um uh police agencies

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Speaker 1: around the area, and I'm sure to the press as well.

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Speaker 1: Um So it was kind of public, even though it

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Speaker 1: was kind of quiet, but it got the press's attention,

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Speaker 1: and the press started to connect the dots, and all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden, we now were connecting the Lady of

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Speaker 1: the Lake to this latest guy and all of the

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Speaker 1: other ones as well, and it became very clear that

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Speaker 1: there was what they call the Mad Butcher of Kingsbury

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Speaker 1: run on the loose um in Cleveland, and no one

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Speaker 1: had any idea who it was or when or if

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Speaker 1: they were ever going to stop. Yeah. I think there

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Speaker 1: were seven more victims over the next two years. Victim

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Speaker 1: eight were skeletal remains, but they did think they identified

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Speaker 1: this person as Rose Wallace. Uh, woman in her forties.

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Speaker 1: She had gone missing about a year earlier, and there

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Speaker 1: was quicklime use to decomposed this body. And this one

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Speaker 1: interestingly had evidence of more of a clumsy dismemberment. Um.

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Speaker 1: To me, this one stands out a little bit as

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Speaker 1: one that possibly might not be a victim and could

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Speaker 1: have been misattributed, uh, to the to the mad butcher.

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Speaker 1: That's just my personal feeling. I don't I don't know

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Speaker 1: if anyone else is saying this, but it's the one

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Speaker 1: that stands out to me as being slightly different, same

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Speaker 1: as the same, same to me. Yeah, she uh, the

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Speaker 1: killer clearly lacked a dismemberment plan in that case. Is

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Speaker 1: that a band? Yeah? Are they good? Yeah? They were

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Speaker 1: really good. They were maybe math rock. I think they

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Speaker 1: were at the very least they were alternative. Victim nine

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Speaker 1: was had his heart removed. Um. Victim ten had morphine

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Speaker 1: in her system. And I think they're they're not quite

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Speaker 1: sure how they all died. I think at one point

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Speaker 1: they thought most of them died by the decapitation, but

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Speaker 1: some were found with uh their blood completely drained from

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Speaker 1: their body. Like I said, this one woman had morphine

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Speaker 1: inter system, which could make sense. We'll get to something

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Speaker 1: else later on of a potential victim that never happened,

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Speaker 1: where drugs might have been a factor. But um, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's it's sort of all. You know, there were men,

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Speaker 1: they were women, There were black people, there were white people.

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Speaker 1: There wasn't any real rhyme or reason, it seemed like,

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Speaker 1: aside from the fact that they were probably culled from

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Speaker 1: this area of Ohio, yes, uh. And the fact that

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Speaker 1: you know the first two men were emasculated, um, that

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Speaker 1: there were women involved too. That somebody's hard to been

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Speaker 1: ripped out like there was. There was clearly a sexual

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Speaker 1: element of the whole thing, which made the idea that

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Speaker 1: they were men and women victims UM very confounded. You

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Speaker 1: just don't normally see that in a sex killer. You

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Speaker 1: see one or the other, and it's usually the sex

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Speaker 1: that the person is oriented to. Um are the victims.

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Speaker 1: And then you know, just to kind of to to

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Speaker 1: cap that point off, the killer left victims eleven and

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Speaker 1: twelve within a few yards of one another um on

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Speaker 1: a dump like a trash dump, and one was a woman,

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Speaker 1: Victim eleven was a woman, and victim twelve was a man.

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Speaker 1: Should we take a break? We should because Cleveland doesn't

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Speaker 1: know it at the time, but those of us looking

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Speaker 1: through uh, looking backwards through history can tell you that

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Speaker 1: this was the last canonical victims in August of night.

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Speaker 1: So the killer, as far as anybody knows, is done.

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Speaker 1: That's right, and most of the grizzling stuff is out

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Speaker 1: of the way, and we'll be back to reveal the

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Speaker 1: famous investigator right after this. How's that for a tease?

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Speaker 1: It was I can't take it anymore, Chuck, please, please?

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Speaker 1: Who is it? It's my favorite thing when you play

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Speaker 1: coy Uh. It was Mr Elliott Nessus, very famous for

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Speaker 1: being the head of the Untouchables, for putting uh Al

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Speaker 1: Capone behind bars, good friend of Sean Connery's very good friend.

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Speaker 1: Oh that was great. That wasn't very good, because you

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Speaker 1: don't bring your knife to a gunfight. To bring a

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Speaker 1: gun your dummy. Yeah, I think that was the line.

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Speaker 1: If you wanted to do country, well, you gotta have

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Speaker 1: ansh in there, right. But there was no sad didn't

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Speaker 1: I I thought that was. I thought I nailed it.

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Speaker 1: There aren't no s is in that sentence, right, They're implied.

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Speaker 1: And I would have done that had there been ses

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Speaker 1: don't bring a knife to a gun dunch. How's that right?

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Speaker 1: You're burger gone your job? All right? Back to the

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Speaker 1: serious stuff. Elliott Ness was the after that working what

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Speaker 1: was that Chicago? I think, oh, yeah, that was He

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Speaker 1: became the alcohol uh investigator in charge of the alcohol

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Speaker 1: tax unit for Northern Ohio and August of thirty four,

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Speaker 1: and then the Republican mayoral candidate Harold Burton, who would

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Speaker 1: go on to win, said, you know what, Ness, you're

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Speaker 1: a famous guy. I like the cut of your jib um.

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Speaker 1: Let me make you in December nine the safety director

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Speaker 1: for Cleveland, and let me nudge you towards this outstanding

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Speaker 1: case that we have. So yeah, when he was hired,

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Speaker 1: the the case wasn't quite clear that it was a

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Speaker 1: big old case when he came in just after like

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Speaker 1: a couple of months after victims one and two were found,

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Speaker 1: and just a couple of weeks before flow Polilo was out,

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Speaker 1: So it wasn't evident that that there was a serial

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Speaker 1: murderer on the loose. Um, but that also means that

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Speaker 1: Elliott Nest came in right at the beginning of this thing,

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Speaker 1: so he was the public safety director for it. He

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Speaker 1: became the face of the frustrated police effort to capture

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Speaker 1: the Torso killer, right although the lead investigator, what was

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Speaker 1: that guy's name, Peter Maurillo, Yeah, he was. He was

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Speaker 1: I don't know about obsessed, but it became sort of

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Speaker 1: his main focus of work was to tirelessly find out

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Speaker 1: who this murderer was. And I assume that it's weird

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Speaker 1: because I really don't know what a safety director was.

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Speaker 1: I don't think is that even still a thing? Uh? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think there's a public safety director position still there.

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Speaker 1: They basically are in charge of the police department, the

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Speaker 1: fire department, all that stuff. You're there the head of that.

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Speaker 1: They're like they probably the liaison between the mayor in

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Speaker 1: those services, but not the guardian angels because they do

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Speaker 1: what they want to do. Hey man, they're staying on

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Speaker 1: their own too. Uh. The coroner A. J. Pierce of

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Speaker 1: the case, I think he was the first corner on

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Speaker 1: the first case, said you know what we need to do.

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Speaker 1: We need to get together, we need to have a

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Speaker 1: little summit and start sharing information. I'm gonna call it

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Speaker 1: the Torso Clinic, which was interesting. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: he did or the press did, yeah, either way, because

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Speaker 1: the press was very much involved in this whole run obviously.

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Speaker 1: But at this conference is where he first put forward

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Speaker 1: a profile, which was this is someone who would not

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Speaker 1: stand out in Kingsbury one. Uh, then someone who knew

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Speaker 1: the area could blend in, uh, somebody, you know. We

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Speaker 1: think it's a man who is a powerful man because

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Speaker 1: they need to be able to you know, it takes

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Speaker 1: a lot of work to dismember a body and to

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Speaker 1: haul these bodies around and drop them off in different places.

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Speaker 1: And we think he also might have some anatomical knowledge,

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Speaker 1: not saying that he's necessarily a doctor or a surgeon, uh,

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Speaker 1: kind of to jack the ripper thing. But but this,

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Speaker 1: this person clearsly clearly knows their way around a knife

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Speaker 1: in a scalpel. Yeah, because I mean, if you really

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Speaker 1: closely examine a body and like look at the places

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Speaker 1: where you know the body was separated with the knife,

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Speaker 1: you can find hesitancy marks, you can find the hacking. Um,

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Speaker 1: there's all sorts of clues and telltale signs and apparently

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Speaker 1: this guy had a lot of confidence and had a

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Speaker 1: lot of skill or knowledge about anatomy. So, like you said,

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Speaker 1: maybe not a doctor, but at the very least a

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Speaker 1: very skilled butcher who had studied human anatomy um before.

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Speaker 1: But eventually they finally were like, this is probably some

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Speaker 1: sort of doctor. Yeah, And I think they eventually learned

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Speaker 1: that most of the victims died within a few dame

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Speaker 1: a few days of being discovered, and most were moved,

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Speaker 1: except for victim five, where they found a blood bath.

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Speaker 1: You know that was this didn't happen to the other

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Speaker 1: crime scenes. It was virtually no blood to be found,

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Speaker 1: and in fact, I think one was completely drained of blood.

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Speaker 1: Oh really, so that I mean that takes I don't

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Speaker 1: know if that happened naturally just because of the nature

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Speaker 1: of of dismemberment or it was a purposeful thing. But

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Speaker 1: only one body was found kind of clearly murdered there, right,

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Speaker 1: So um, yeah, I think that the fact that the

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Speaker 1: blood wasn't on the scene and it wasn't in the

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Speaker 1: body any longer means that had to go somewhere. So

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Speaker 1: that the fact that they were dismembered um and the

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Speaker 1: and packaged I mean, like a lot of them were found.

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Speaker 1: You know. Um, the one unidentified tattooed man, his head

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Speaker 1: was wrapped in trousers, but other people's were wrapped in

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Speaker 1: newspaper or brown paper like they were meat. Um, someone

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Speaker 1: was was put in a makeshift box. Um, there was.

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Speaker 1: There was a lot of time dedicated to the dismemberment

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Speaker 1: of these bodies, and that that that leaves a lot

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Speaker 1: of evidence and you need a place where you're not

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Speaker 1: going to be in erupted and that's not easy to

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Speaker 1: come by. So that became a really like big point

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Speaker 1: is you know, we were pretty sure that this person

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Speaker 1: is is snatching victims from the from the Kingsbury Run area. Um,

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Speaker 1: but where are they committing these acts? And they tried

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Speaker 1: to find that that place as much as they tried

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Speaker 1: to find the killer. Yeah, I mean that would be

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Speaker 1: a big clue if they had some murder room, uh

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Speaker 1: Dexter style. Sure, but just giveaway every time. That's coming back.

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Speaker 1: By the way, I don't know if you ever watched Exter,

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Speaker 1: what do you mean it's coming back? They're bringing Dexter

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Speaker 1: back man with the original like Michael C. Hall. No, Yes,

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Speaker 1: they are, indeed, And I had mixed feelings because we

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Speaker 1: love that show for a long time, but it is

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Speaker 1: the end. It is one of the shark jump here

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Speaker 1: shows of all time. It's it's like the shark itself jumped,

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Speaker 1: I think. So it's insane, it's amazing. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: love Michael c Hell though. We were just now finishing

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Speaker 1: six ft Under again, so I'm always happy to see

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Speaker 1: him again. But I'll give it again. You see Colden July.

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Speaker 1: M Mmm, no, what is that. It's a little bit

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Speaker 1: like a straw Dogs type story. Um, but he's like

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Speaker 1: having a battle Don Johnson. It's just really like, if

379
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Speaker 1: you want I know, it's weird casting, but if you

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Speaker 1: want to just experience like a constant, you know, mid

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Speaker 1: to low level dread for two hours, Like, let's go

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Speaker 1: ahead and watch that. It's well done in that respect.

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Speaker 1: Or watch the Lighthouse. Probably it's probably better. It's so good.

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Speaker 1: Let's just stop talking about this and talking about the

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Speaker 1: Lighthouse for the rest of the time, all right. So, uh,

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Speaker 1: Peter Morillo, who, like we said, was a lead detective,

387
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Speaker 1: he's sort of obsessed with this thing. He starts not

388
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Speaker 1: only focusing on uh, this land down by the river.

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Speaker 1: But I didn't mean that, but that's what it was.

390
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Speaker 1: But he started focusing on the rail roads and these

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Speaker 1: these hoboes the railroads. Okay, you know where trains run

392
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Speaker 1: on sure, yeah, I just never heard it pronounced the

393
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Speaker 1: way you did, the first railroad. It was hilarious. I

394
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Speaker 1: gotta lighten this up. So I were talking about this

395
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Speaker 1: membered towards exactly. Um. So he started looking in these

396
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Speaker 1: box cars and I don't I mean as hobo an

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Speaker 1: offensive word. Can you still say that? Don't think so.

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Speaker 1: I think it's a point of pride, a term of

399
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Speaker 1: pride for people to still ride the rails. Okay. Um.

400
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Speaker 1: So he's still out there doing his thing at this

401
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Speaker 1: press conference, um Elliott and s ends up holding a

402
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Speaker 1: meeting with the head of Scientific Investigation Bureau. His name

403
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Speaker 1: was David Cowell's uh and an editor of the Cleveland Press. Um.

404
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Speaker 1: So this is a big deal. They're actually getting the

405
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Speaker 1: press involved at this point, right, But secretly, this wasn't

406
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Speaker 1: a press conference. This is like a secret meeting. Oh

407
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:53,800
Speaker 1: no, no no, not a press conference at all. This was

408
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Speaker 1: very much in secret. But he's involving the press, and

409
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Speaker 1: they said, here's what we're gonna do. Ness says let's

410
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Speaker 1: you go and aout eight tough guys that can go undercover,

411
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Speaker 1: that that know a lot of bad guys in Cleveland

412
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Speaker 1: and have all those connections, will get them the police

413
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Speaker 1: support they need, and we'll fund them. How did they

414
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Speaker 1: fund them with the press is money? What does that

415
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Speaker 1: even mean? I don't know. I think that like maybe um,

416
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Speaker 1: the owners of the newspapers chipped in, like the wealthy

417
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Speaker 1: owners chipped in quietly to stuff off of the books.

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Speaker 1: That's my impression of what you ever chipped in the

419
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Speaker 1: most gut to break the story, Hender, But well no,

420
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Speaker 1: I think at the same time, it was a technique

421
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Speaker 1: for bringing the press into the fold so that there

422
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Speaker 1: weren't outsiders drumming up trouble for the cops anymore. Because

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Speaker 1: the Cleveland press really made the They didn't make the

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00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 1: police look bad. They pointed out just how badly the

425
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,639
Speaker 1: police were handling this or ineffectively, which is not to

426
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:53,240
Speaker 1: say that the police were um not trying really really hard.

427
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 1: Top postedly. I saw a figure of ten thousand suspects

428
00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,360
Speaker 1: were interviewed over four years during the course of this investigation.

429
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 1: They just couldn't find the guy. They could not find

430
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 1: this killer, and the press kind of almost gleefully kept

431
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:09,359
Speaker 1: pointing that out right, So this is in a way

432
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,160
Speaker 1: attempt to assuage them and bring them into the inner

433
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 1: circle a bit, right. That's that was my impression. Yeah,

434
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,960
Speaker 1: all right, So the police are they got these undercover

435
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,879
Speaker 1: guys working there. They're seeing they're checking cars randomly at

436
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:27,440
Speaker 1: all hours. They're canvassing laundromats and places where you wash

437
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:29,720
Speaker 1: your clothes. So you know, if there are people like

438
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:31,800
Speaker 1: trying to get bloodstains out of something, they're kind of

439
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,639
Speaker 1: doing everything they can at this point. Uh. And this

440
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,120
Speaker 1: is where the Coen Brothers sort of a moment comes in,

441
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 1: which is in Sandusky a dog and Sandusky is about now,

442
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 1: it's about an hour or ten minutes away by car.

443
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 1: I don't know what it would have been back then,

444
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 1: but probably less than two hours, I would say, even

445
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 1: in an old timy car. A dog shows up in

446
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,560
Speaker 1: Sandusky with a human leg in its mouth. I want

447
00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 1: to say that literally happened in a Coen Brothers movie.

448
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,119
Speaker 1: It might have just been a bone of a body,

449
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:05,159
Speaker 1: but I can't think of which one it might be.

450
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 1: Someone will someone will write in and tell us, But

451
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 1: it sounds like a Barton Fink kind of thing. It is,

452
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,440
Speaker 1: but it's not, or I might be thinking of the

453
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 1: kids who ripped the two pay off the guy in

454
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:20,719
Speaker 1: uh Miller's Crossing. I remember that part, although I remember

455
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,239
Speaker 1: one of the neighbors lost his to pay in the

456
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:27,440
Speaker 1: burbs and they thought it was Evidently, there's definitely a movie,

457
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:29,160
Speaker 1: it might not have been Coming Brothers where dog shows

458
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 1: up with the body part in its mouth. Probably more

459
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,160
Speaker 1: than one movie, but this dog shows up in its

460
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:38,640
Speaker 1: mouth and Marello goes to Sandusky and it turns out

461
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 1: that the leg was actually surgically removed during a during

462
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 1: a real surgery, not a not a serial killer surgery,

463
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 1: and just didn't get disposed of right, ended up in

464
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,199
Speaker 1: the lake, ended up in the dog's mouth, right. But

465
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,439
Speaker 1: the police were so hyped up at the time that

466
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 1: they traveled Sandusky to chase down this lead, which, like

467
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 1: all the other ones, went absolutely no where um. And

468
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 1: so there was there was again like just a tremendous

469
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 1: amount of public pressure, including something you mentioned earlier, to

470
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,879
Speaker 1: a lot of allegations and accusations that the police weren't

471
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 1: doing enough because these people were not wealthy, were not

472
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:20,119
Speaker 1: well thought of, They were, you know, very poor. The

473
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 1: poorest of the poor during the Great Depression were the

474
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 1: ones who were having who are suffering this this serial

475
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:29,360
Speaker 1: killer UM. And so there was a tremendous amount of

476
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 1: of pressure UM. And I think my impression is is

477
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 1: that that pressure UM is one of the I guess

478
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,879
Speaker 1: the thing that drove Elliott Ness to Um to do

479
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 1: something really terrible. Because the killer was picking from the

480
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 1: shanty towns of Kingsbury Run. Elliott Ness got it in

481
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:51,640
Speaker 1: his head that if you did away with Kingsbury Run,

482
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,479
Speaker 1: you do away with the killings. And so he raided

483
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:58,680
Speaker 1: the homeless camps at Kingsbury Run and roused at everybody

484
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 1: and then ordered the place burned to the ground. Yeah,

485
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,120
Speaker 1: and I'm sure he thought this was a great idea

486
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 1: at the time, but he really didn't think it through

487
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:10,159
Speaker 1: because the people of Cleveland did not take kindly to

488
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 1: that Um. They they hated him for what he did.

489
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 1: And this was during the depression and everyone was struggling basically,

490
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 1: or not everyone, but most people were struggling at this

491
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 1: point unemployment rate of in Cleveland, and so the idea

492
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 1: of this big shot Chicago g man coming in and

493
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 1: and basically running these homeless people out of their only

494
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 1: option and burning it to the ground was not a

495
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 1: good look at all. However, it that was there were

496
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 1: no more murders after that. I know, it's strangely, it

497
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 1: seemed to have worked, and it depends we'll talk more about.

498
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 1: You know, a lot of different views of whether the

499
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 1: murders stopped or not. But as far as canonical victims go,

500
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 1: this this he burned the place to the ground two

501
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 1: days after victims eleven and twelve or found, and after

502
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 1: that there were no more victims. So it didn't solve

503
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 1: the murders by any stretch of the imagination, but it

504
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 1: seemed to have put an end to him. Weirdly, Yeah,

505
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 1: I think before we take a break, we should mention

506
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 1: there was one and get into the who we think

507
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 1: it's probably the real suspect. There was one suspect in

508
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 1: Cuyahoga County, uh that the sheriff brought in name. He

509
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 1: was a bricklayer named Frank dole Zeal who did confess

510
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 1: he was brought in for the murder of Flow Palilo,

511
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 1: originally because he had lived with her for a little while,

512
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,959
Speaker 1: but supposedly he knew Rose Wallis and Edward ANDREWSI as well.

513
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 1: But then they looked into it, and by all accounts

514
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 1: that confession was um not just induced, but in the

515
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 1: days where you would literally beat a victim into confessing. Yeah,

516
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:51,479
Speaker 1: and um then murder him in his cell after he

517
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 1: recanted his confession. So was he murdered. Yeah, Well, he

518
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 1: he hung himself, but he hung himself from a hook

519
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 1: that was shorter than he was, which I mean, I

520
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 1: guess if you really really want to die, you might

521
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 1: you you could do that, you could overcome them the

522
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,520
Speaker 1: urge to stand up, disinclination towards self harm, I guess

523
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 1: you'd put it. But uh, his his friends at the

524
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 1: time seemed to be like now that he was murdered.

525
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 1: So it's at the very least his confession was beaten

526
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 1: out of him. And no, no serious scholar of the

527
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 1: crime believes that um Frank do zeal was was the killer.

528
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 1: He didn't have any there was no evidence whatsoever any

529
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 1: kind of surgical knowledge. There was like a lot of boxes.

530
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 1: He just didn't check. It was basically, uh, he knew flow,

531
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 1: and he may have known Edward and ROSSI, and he

532
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 1: may have known Rose Wallace and the sheriff basically ran

533
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 1: him in very publicly. All right, So let's take that

534
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 1: break and then we'll come back and talk a little

535
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 1: bit more about the investigation and who people now believe

536
00:30:54,080 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 1: committed these horrible murders right after this, all right, so

537
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 1: Elliott Ness has run everyone out of the Kingsbury run camps.

538
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 1: Did not go over well. He then says, here's what

539
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 1: we'll do. Let's skirt the warrant rules so we don't

540
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 1: have to require warrants, and let's get together. Since I'm

541
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 1: the safety director and I controlled the fire department too,

542
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 1: let's get let's go around and start searching for quote,

543
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 1: fire code violations end quote. Basically, so they don't have

544
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 1: to get any kind of warrants and they can just

545
00:31:56,040 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 1: basically go into people's houses and and just at will

546
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 1: and search and do whatever they want to under the

547
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 1: guise of searching for fire code violations. He was desperate,

548
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 1: He was very desperate. And again they were looking not

549
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 1: just for the killer, but really, more than anything, they

550
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 1: were looking for that grizzly workshop, as the Cleveland plain

551
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 1: Dealer had put in a place where he was, you know,

552
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 1: draining the victims of their blood and dismembering their bodies.

553
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 1: They didn't turn anything up, but it really kind of

554
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 1: goes to show like just what lengths elliott Ness, who

555
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 1: was considered like this squeaky clean law man was willing

556
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 1: to go to this is extraordinarily um unconstitutional and underhanded,

557
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 1: and he went he went to that degree and well

558
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 1: beyond it turned out actually too very much. Uh. And

559
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 1: I think we're at the point now where we can

560
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 1: talk about this mystery person, right, Yeah, this is this

561
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 1: is why I said. He went way beyond you know,

562
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 1: um unlawful search of homes. He actually engaged in what

563
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 1: amounts to kidney apping of a private citizen who he

564
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 1: thought was the killer. Yeah, and he kept it very secret.

565
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 1: He even used a pseudonym for this person. He called

566
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 1: this person this gentleman gay lord Sundheim. Pretty good name,

567
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 1: a good hotel check in name. Uh. And privately he

568
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:18,640
Speaker 1: you know, word gets around a little bit what's going on,

569
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 1: But privately he would describe this person as an alcoholic,

570
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 1: uh maybe bisexual, A doctor who came from a wealthy

571
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 1: family and who had a relative in Congress who was

572
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 1: protecting this person and took this man under the dark

573
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 1: of night to a hotel room in Cleveland held there

574
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 1: without charging him for two weeks where they interrogated this person. Yes,

575
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 1: and apparently the guy who this gay lord Sundheim was

576
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 1: in the middle of a bender when he was picked up,

577
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 1: and uh, he had um. He was so profoundly drunk

578
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 1: that it took him three days to become sober again.

579
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 1: Not buy that, I don't, but when he when he did,

580
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 1: I know, But you got to add those two. Um,

581
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 1: thank you for keeping it, keeping it even keel though

582
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:12,360
Speaker 1: they were a little rough, and you're always okay the

583
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 1: next day. I don't know what you're talking about. It's

584
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 1: so weird, like alcohol affects us so differently. Man, I

585
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 1: can have like a drink and a half these days

586
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:25,880
Speaker 1: and I'm like hating life the next day. No, I'm

587
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:28,439
Speaker 1: not talking about a hangover, but you're not still drunk

588
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 1: the next day and two days or three days. I

589
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 1: think that's what they were saying, is that this guy

590
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 1: was he had like a hangover stupor basically that was

591
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 1: my impression, not that he was still just flying high,

592
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 1: but that hating it all right for three day But regardless,

593
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 1: they kept him whether he was sober as a judge

594
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 1: or you know, drunk as a skunk when they picked

595
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 1: him up. They held them in this hotel room without

596
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 1: charge and outside of the legal system for two weeks

597
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:01,799
Speaker 1: and interrogated him for up to eight hours a day. Yeah,

598
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,439
Speaker 1: but I think he did it, so who cares. That's

599
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 1: exactly how Elliott ness was approaching this, and again everybody

600
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 1: thought he was this squeaky clean lawman and he's engaged

601
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:13,799
Speaker 1: in kidnapping. But the thing is, he brought in the

602
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 1: guy who was one of the early inventors of the polygraph.

603
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 1: He invented the Keeler polygraph, and it was called that

604
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,799
Speaker 1: because his name was Leonard Keeler, and he I think

605
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,279
Speaker 1: he brought him from Chicago and Leonard Keeler administered a

606
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 1: couple of different polygraph tests to this gay Lord Sondheim

607
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 1: and said, if this isn't your man, I might as

608
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:34,799
Speaker 1: well throw my machine out the window if I say

609
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 1: anything else, because that guy, that's the guy. It's definitely

610
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 1: the guy. You gotta take that with a grain of salt,

611
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 1: because especially today, polygraphs are just total junk science. But

612
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:49,799
Speaker 1: it's certainly um confirmed Nessa's suspicions that much more at

613
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,239
Speaker 1: the time, I think that that polygraph back then was

614
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,440
Speaker 1: there wasn't even machine. Keeler would just sit there and

615
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:56,920
Speaker 1: look for a bit of sweat to break out on

616
00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 1: the forehead, then punched the guy if it did. That's

617
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:04,399
Speaker 1: right exactly so Uh. The case was never solved. Um

618
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 1: Ness's reputation obviously took a big hit. He eventually got

619
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:10,839
Speaker 1: out of Cleveland after a drunk driving hit and run

620
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 1: accident that he was involved with and tried to cover up.

621
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,919
Speaker 1: So he left in great shame. But back to this

622
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 1: gay lord sundheime. Later on, many years later, there were

623
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:26,400
Speaker 1: crime investigators and writers who put two and two together

624
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,479
Speaker 1: and basically identified and in fact, in one case, crime

625
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:34,799
Speaker 1: writer Maryland Bardsley came out and said, yeah, this this

626
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:38,959
Speaker 1: is who this person was. It was a former World

627
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 1: War One Army medic who was discharged for mental instability

628
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 1: following head trauma, which was big warning lights going off. Uh.

629
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 1: And he was an alcoholic another big warning light. And

630
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 1: his name was Francis Edward Sweeney, who also happens to

631
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 1: have a relative in Congress, right, a guy named Representative

632
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:03,440
Speaker 1: Martin Sweeney who was a huge critic of the Burton administration,

633
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 1: of which Elliott Ness was a major part um, and

634
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 1: he was just the kind of guy who was a

635
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:13,239
Speaker 1: political opponent to the degree that I'm sure Elliott Ness

636
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 1: thought if he tried to arrest Clarence or um Francis Sweeney,

637
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:21,400
Speaker 1: he would, uh, he would he would be obstructed, you know,

638
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 1: from up on high by this congress person. Whether he

639
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:26,759
Speaker 1: would have or not, I don't know. I saw some

640
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 1: references to the idea that Martin Sweeney was well aware

641
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 1: that Elliott Ness was looking at his cousin for this

642
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 1: and was already getting in the way. Um, But I

643
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:38,919
Speaker 1: only saw that on one place, so I'm not sure

644
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:41,960
Speaker 1: if that's the case or not. Either way, his presence

645
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 1: and his connection to Francis Sweeney was enough that Elliott

646
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:48,920
Speaker 1: Nest never charged Francis Sweeney, despite apparently going to his

647
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 1: grave believing that that Dr Francis Edward Sweeney was the

648
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:56,360
Speaker 1: Cleveland Torso murderer. Have you seen a picture of the guy, dude,

649
00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 1: he looks like the definition of a towards our murderer.

650
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 1: If you who if you like seriously, you have to

651
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:04,719
Speaker 1: be careful with that stuff, because can you ever end

652
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 1: up a juror you can't be like you look like

653
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 1: a killer. This guy looks like a Torso murderer. You're

654
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 1: exactly right. Uh. The quick sidebar, I'm not sure if

655
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 1: I ever mentioned it on this show. I know I've

656
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 1: talked about on a movie Crush, but I want to

657
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:20,839
Speaker 1: recommend this great, great documentary And forgive me if I'm

658
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 1: repeating myself here, but it's called Crazy not Insane. Uh.

659
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 1: It's an HBO documentary about this doctor, doctor Dorothy at

660
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 1: no Lewis, who basically spent her life trying to understand

661
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 1: serial killers and one of the main she was kind

662
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 1: of one of the first people to really try and

663
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,480
Speaker 1: understand what's actually going on, and she put together I

664
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 1: think like three very common uh common commonalities among serial killers.

665
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,759
Speaker 1: But one of them is is head trauma. And that's

666
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 1: why this really stands out of me about Frances Edward Sweeney,

667
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 1: was that he was discharged from the Army because of

668
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 1: head trauma leading to mental instability. It's a commonality and

669
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 1: most serial killers is some sort of head trauma, especially

670
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:07,280
Speaker 1: when you're younger. Wow, that's interesting. I did not know that. Yeah,

671
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 1: and the I may have thought I talked about on this,

672
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 1: but it was uh the uh who was the guy

673
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:15,319
Speaker 1: in l a that that also just had a great

674
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 1: docuseries on the night Stalker. Richard Ramirez he suffered multiple

675
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 1: head traumas when he was younger as well. So I

676
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 1: think it's it's I can't remember the third one. It's

677
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:28,960
Speaker 1: head trauma, some sort of physical uh, and even sexual

678
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:31,279
Speaker 1: abuse as a child. And then there was like one

679
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 1: more thing and those are like that's just a recipe

680
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:37,320
Speaker 1: for ending up some sort of sociopath or serial killer.

681
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:41,760
Speaker 1: I think the third one is disappointing birthday presents. Yeah. Maybe,

682
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 1: So it's a great you'd really love it's a really

683
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,399
Speaker 1: good documentary. Um, yeah, I'll check that out for sure.

684
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 1: It sounds like it's totally at my alley. I'm actually

685
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 1: a dog that I've not heard of it. Don't be

686
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 1: a dog. I'm I'm a little dog, all right, come back. So,

687
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 1: like you said, Marilyn Bardsley confirmed from one of the

688
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 1: investigators that Francis Sweeney was gay Lord Sondheim. But that

689
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,760
Speaker 1: does not mean that Francis Sweeney was the Torso murderer.

690
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:11,840
Speaker 1: Although again, like you were saying, if you look at

691
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:15,319
Speaker 1: a picture of Francis Sweeney, that's totally the Torso murderer. Well,

692
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:18,920
Speaker 1: another stuff, you know, the head trauma, the medical training.

693
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:21,720
Speaker 1: He was a surgeon in residence at Saint Alexis Hospital.

694
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:26,719
Speaker 1: His career deteriorated because of his drinking right around the

695
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:30,840
Speaker 1: time the first murderer victims started showing up to Yeah,

696
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:35,239
Speaker 1: he also had a deal apparently with a local mortuary

697
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 1: where they would give him bodies to practice surgery on,

698
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 1: which would explain maybe the kill room or the dismemberment room.

699
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:46,400
Speaker 1: He would have a place to go, uh and dispose

700
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:48,800
Speaker 1: of these bodies without you know, they're being a big

701
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 1: blood trail, you know, right, I mean, this is a

702
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 1: place where it wouldn't seem weird that somebody was decapitating

703
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,880
Speaker 1: a body or draining the body of all of its blood.

704
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 1: Like that's exactly the kind of place. And that didn't

705
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:02,920
Speaker 1: turn up until years later, And it was thanks to

706
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:06,279
Speaker 1: a guy named James Baddall who's written some books on

707
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:10,239
Speaker 1: it um on the Torso murderers, And he interviewed one

708
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:13,239
Speaker 1: of the one of the early investigators and found out

709
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 1: that he had privileges at that funeral home and started

710
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 1: to put two and two together. Yeah, there was one

711
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 1: a couple of other things. Um, he did send taunting

712
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 1: letters to Elliott Ness for years. Uh. Some one of

713
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:31,440
Speaker 1: them was signed F. E. Sweeney paranoidal Nemesis. But was

714
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 1: this after he had been kidnapped by Ness? Yes, so

715
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:38,280
Speaker 1: he knew Ness by this time. And he also didn't

716
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 1: say like I didn't you didn't catch me anything like that.

717
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:43,360
Speaker 1: I get the impression it was more like, you didn't

718
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:46,759
Speaker 1: catch the guy. You're terrible at this, everybody hates you.

719
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 1: But still taunting stuff. But yes, this would have been

720
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 1: after he was kidnapped, because this was up into like

721
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 1: the forties. Yeah, that's true. Uh. And then I think

722
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:59,319
Speaker 1: to me, one of the biggest red flags pointing in

723
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 1: the direction of enye is I mentioned a nearer victim

724
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 1: earlier in the episode. This was a transient. His name

725
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:10,400
Speaker 1: was E. Meal Fronick, and he was living in Cleveland

726
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:13,840
Speaker 1: and thirty four and one day he was lured into

727
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 1: a doctor's office on the second floor along Broadway Avenue

728
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 1: and the doctor said, here, I'll give you some shoes

729
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:22,239
Speaker 1: and a meal if you come up here. Frown. It

730
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:24,320
Speaker 1: goes up, eats a little bit of the meal, starts

731
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 1: to feel lightheaded, and bolts and makes it to a

732
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 1: train car and basically passes out for three days, and

733
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,760
Speaker 1: then later on I think in night was being interviewed

734
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 1: after the cops here about this old Morello goes to

735
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 1: pick come up, and they narrowed down the area to

736
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 1: fifty streets along Broadway, where Sweeney had a doctor's office. Yeah,

737
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:52,040
Speaker 1: he couldn't specifically say that was the place where it happened,

738
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:55,000
Speaker 1: and that that author James but All says that he

739
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 1: thinks he came in the back way rather than the

740
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:00,200
Speaker 1: front way where they were showing him. Um and and

741
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 1: but he did say that's he had an office right there,

742
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:06,439
Speaker 1: right around that area, so uh, and he was there

743
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 1: at the time. So I mean that's some pretty serious

744
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:13,799
Speaker 1: circumstantial stuff. But the thing is there's no smoking gun,

745
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:17,759
Speaker 1: there's no anything that says definitively and we probably will

746
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:21,239
Speaker 1: never have anything definitively it says it's Francis Sweeney. So

747
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:23,799
Speaker 1: we've kind of reached this point, this plateau where it's

748
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 1: like you just basically choose a side. Either you know

749
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 1: it's Francis Sweeney or it wasn't. And some people who

750
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 1: say no, I don't think it was Francis Sweeney makes

751
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 1: some pretty good cases. Um, there were other similar murders

752
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:39,919
Speaker 1: in the area starting in the twenties and going into

753
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 1: the fifties. Um, that that really bore a lot of

754
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:49,080
Speaker 1: resemblance to the Torso murders. Um. And then other people say, okay, um,

755
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:53,840
Speaker 1: I feel the opposite of that, where there's like I

756
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:56,239
Speaker 1: don't think Rose Wallace was one of the victims. I

757
00:43:56,239 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 1: think there were multiple killers doing similar ish stuff, maybe

758
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:05,359
Speaker 1: copycats even, um, And that it wasn't all just one person. Um, there,

759
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 1: there's there's, there's is, and there's probably always going to

760
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 1: be a lot of competing theories about what, you know,

761
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:15,440
Speaker 1: who is responsible. Yeah. The one theory that it wasn't

762
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 1: him that I don't buy. Did you say where he

763
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 1: was living in Sandusky? No? Huh? All right, So here's

764
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:27,400
Speaker 1: the deal. He Francis Sweeney was apparently enrolled or checked

765
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:31,120
Speaker 1: into the Soldiers and Sailors Home in Sandusky, which I

766
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:36,359
Speaker 1: guess is an old like a veteran's home, right, Yeah, yeah,

767
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 1: I think yes, So that's what it seems like. So

768
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:41,280
Speaker 1: he was checked in there, and one of the reasons

769
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 1: that people say he didn't do it was because he

770
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:45,799
Speaker 1: was checked in in this place in Sandusky, like a

771
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:48,480
Speaker 1: couple hours away, and I just don't buy that. They

772
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 1: later came out and said, you know, they could come

773
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 1: and go as they pleased. He could easily have if

774
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:55,920
Speaker 1: he didn't want to get caught be committing these murders

775
00:44:55,960 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 1: in Cleveland and then going back to Sandusky as well. Right, Yeah,

776
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:03,440
Speaker 1: because he was there voluntarily, so he would not have

777
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 1: been watched or monitored, or they wouldn't have kept tabs

778
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 1: on him. And when they figured this out, it was

779
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:10,400
Speaker 1: years later, so no one would have been able to

780
00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:12,959
Speaker 1: recall where he was or wasn't on a certain day.

781
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 1: You know, I think it's Sweeney. Yeah, I think there's

782
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:20,879
Speaker 1: because of this picture, but there's so there were other

783
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:23,319
Speaker 1: murders in the area that you know, it could have

784
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:26,200
Speaker 1: still been Sweeney. To Some people connect the Black Dolly

785
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:28,680
Speaker 1: a murder to it because there was a taunting note

786
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 1: that the cops got that said the cops can rest

787
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 1: easy because the killers moved to sunny California. Um, but

788
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:38,280
Speaker 1: if you look at the Black Dolly murder, there's really

789
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:41,759
Speaker 1: not a lot of resemblance between the two. Um. The

790
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 1: ms are really rather different, so that's probably not the case. Well,

791
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 1: if you want to know more about the Cleveland, Torso murders.

792
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 1: There's a whole rabbit hole on the internet and in books,

793
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:57,600
Speaker 1: including one by James Bidal and another by Maryland Bardsley.

794
00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 1: UM that you can follow, and uh, if you do,

795
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:03,840
Speaker 1: good luck with that. Since I said good luck with that,

796
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:07,960
Speaker 1: it's time for a listener mail. I'm gonna call this.

797
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:14,440
Speaker 1: Uh we we did not help out this, gentleman. Okay, Hey, guys,

798
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:16,760
Speaker 1: love the podcast. I've been listening for the past several years.

799
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 1: I've almost gotten through. The whole library has some left

800
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 1: from apparently. I work as a music musical instrument repair

801
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:28,760
Speaker 1: technician at a local university and independently in Greensboro, North Carolina,

802
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:31,960
Speaker 1: so I usually listen while I work on repadding clarinets

803
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:35,840
Speaker 1: and cleaning two butts. Nice cool job. Anyway, I was

804
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 1: listening to your show this evening on Korean fan death,

805
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 1: remember that or work? We talked about it. I don't

806
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:43,440
Speaker 1: think it was all about that, but it was. It

807
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:47,160
Speaker 1: was a short stuff about it. Was it? Okay? I

808
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 1: remember that being like a top ten or something. Anyway,

809
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:52,840
Speaker 1: immediately thought, finally a way that I can find some

810
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:56,440
Speaker 1: legit reason for getting rid of the fan in our room.

811
00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:59,200
Speaker 1: My fiance, Abby loves having a fan and that noise

812
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:01,960
Speaker 1: when you go to sleep. It's something I can deal with,

813
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:04,239
Speaker 1: but honestly I do not care for it. So when

814
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 1: I finally got home, I told Abby, hey, we got

815
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:08,839
Speaker 1: a serious episode. Stuff you should know we should listen to.

816
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:11,719
Speaker 1: I started the episode without pre screening and trusted you

817
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:14,319
Speaker 1: guys would pull through for me. Needless to say, an

818
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:17,200
Speaker 1: interesting episode, but I did not get the confirmation bias

819
00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 1: I was looking for. Instead, we had a good laugh

820
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:22,720
Speaker 1: in a great evening, looking forward to getting the book,

821
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:25,280
Speaker 1: want you guys the best, and looking forward to anymore.

822
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:29,520
Speaker 1: And that is from John Goodman. Holy cow, John Goodman,

823
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:32,759
Speaker 1: we love you. In the Coen Brothers stuff. His name

824
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 1: is John good I'm gonna plug his business. Goodman Custom

825
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:38,359
Speaker 1: would winds. If you're in the Greensboro, North Carolina area

826
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:40,720
Speaker 1: and you need that clarinet repadded, go to John Goodman

827
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:44,200
Speaker 1: for sure. And even if you're not, it's probably worth

828
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:48,160
Speaker 1: the drive, right, I mean, we're else you gonna do it, Charlotte, Yeah,

829
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:51,800
Speaker 1: come on keep back now. Well, thanks a lot, John Goodman.

830
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:54,279
Speaker 1: We appreciate that. Sorry we couldn't help you output at

831
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:56,960
Speaker 1: least you enjoyed the episode and ultimately in that what

832
00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:00,200
Speaker 1: counts Yes. If you want to get in touch of this,

833
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 1: like John Goodman did, you can send us an email

834
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:09,960
Speaker 1: to Stuff podcast at iHeart radio dot com. Stuff you

835
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 1: Should Know is a production of I heart Radio. For

836
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 1: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app,

837
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

838
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:21,520
Speaker 1: H