1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:04,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff you missed in history class from house 2 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello and welcome. I'm training and I'm 3 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:20,280 Speaker 1: Holly frying. So I researched this episode in the middle 4 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 1: of summer, in the middle of a week plus of 5 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 1: five temperatures above ninety degrees, which, yes, I know that 6 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: is not terribly hot everywhere. Please do not email us 7 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:35,639 Speaker 1: with weather one upmanship emailing us in solidarity about how 8 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: you are also hot. It's fine, Uh yeah, thanks to 9 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:43,480 Speaker 1: various aspects of my apartment, ninety degrees outside is really 10 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: unbearably hot inside. And I've also done a run of 11 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 1: researching very dour episodes lately, So I wish it were 12 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 1: colder has combined with I wish these episodes weren't so 13 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 1: devastating to form today's subject, which is about the time 14 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: that Popsicle and Good Humor could not stop suing one 15 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: another about who got to make which frozen treats on sticks. 16 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: I love hot weather, so I do not wish it 17 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: was colder. Universe, don't listen to treacy. But first we 18 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 1: are going to start with the charming origin stories of 19 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 1: the two treats in question, both of which have a 20 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:27,680 Speaker 1: hefty dose of wholesomeness and Americana. So first we're going 21 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:31,039 Speaker 1: to talk about popsicles. So keep in mind frozen treats 22 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 1: themselves have been around a lot longer than this, and 23 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 1: you can listen to our episode on the history of 24 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: ice cream if you want those details. To add to that, 25 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 1: a lot of origin stories of famous iconic foods have 26 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 1: become really romanticized and have kind of an apocryphal element 27 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 1: to them, and that is the case with this one too, 28 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 1: because the details vary a lot depending on who was 29 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 1: telling the story, but the basics are in five. Frank 30 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 1: Epperson mixed soda powder and water and left it outside 31 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: his Oakland, California home with the wooden stir still in 32 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 1: it overnight. When he found it in the morning, it 33 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 1: was frozen. So that is a lot of serendipity happening 34 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 1: all at once, because it very very rarely gets below 35 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:20,919 Speaker 1: freezing in Oakland, California, and Frank ate this frozen soda 36 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:23,920 Speaker 1: water on a stick, and behold, it was delicious. And 37 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:27,359 Speaker 1: he named it the epsicle, you know, like Epperson plus icicle. 38 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 1: He was at this point, and like an eleven year 39 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: old might be expected to do, he made more of these, 40 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 1: and he started selling them to his neighbors. This really 41 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 1: wasn't much more than a lemonade stand asque cobby until 42 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:43,640 Speaker 1: Everson was a grown man who was making a living 43 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:46,800 Speaker 1: in real estate. In two he made some of his 44 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: frozen treats for a fireman's ball, and at some point, 45 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: reportedly on the advice of his children, Everson also changed 46 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 1: the name from epsicle to popsicle. This time it combined 47 00:02:57,440 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: icicle with what his children were calling him, which was 48 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:04,400 Speaker 1: op In nineteen twenty three, Epperson teamed up with employees 49 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 1: of Low Movie Company and launched Popsicle Company. This company 50 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 1: started selling popsicles at Neptune Beach, which was a waterfront 51 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 1: amusement park near where Eperson lived in California, and soon 52 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 1: he was licensing popsicles to be sold at other amusement 53 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 1: parks as well. On June eleven four, he applied for 54 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 1: a patent for his invention, which was granted on August 55 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 1: nineteenth of that year. The patent is for a quote 56 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 1: frozen confectionery. His invention, according to the patent, improved on 57 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: other frozen confectionery in that you could eat it without 58 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: using a utensil and without contaminating it with your hands. 59 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 1: Plus it was easy to make without a lot of 60 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 1: complicated or hard to sanitize equipment. To make a popsicle. 61 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 1: According to the patent quote, small containers which maybe ordinary 62 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: test tubes, are charged with the liquid syrup from which 63 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: the confection is frozen, and the handlesticks are inserted there 64 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 1: into and pres down into contact with the bottoms of 65 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 1: the containers to overcome the buoyant effect of the liquid. 66 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 1: The syrup is then subjected to intense refrigeration so that 67 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 1: it is frozen solid within a few minutes. The test tube, confection, 68 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:17,359 Speaker 1: and stick are thus frozen together into a rigid mass 69 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 1: from which the test tube container is removed by drawing 70 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 1: outward on the handle after slightly loosening the container from 71 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:28,280 Speaker 1: the confection. The pattern also advises using a sapless, tasteless, 72 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 1: porous wood for the sticks so that the syrup freezes 73 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:33,280 Speaker 1: into it and the stick doesn't just slide right out 74 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 1: when you pull it, which I know happens to me 75 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:42,599 Speaker 1: sometimes when using classic popsical molds. So only a couple 76 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 1: of months after this patent was granted, Everson was low 77 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:47,719 Speaker 1: on money, and he sold all of his patent rights 78 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:51,920 Speaker 1: to Popsicle Corporation, which carried on expanding the pop business 79 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:56,040 Speaker 1: without him. At about this same time, a business called 80 00:04:56,080 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 1: Citrus Product Company was also selling frozen flavored water pop ups. 81 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:03,159 Speaker 1: They called them frozen suckers, which were marketed as an 82 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 1: alternative to soft drinks. This may sound counterintuitive, you know 83 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: how if you suck on an ice pop, you can 84 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 1: suck all the flavored syrup out of it and just 85 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 1: be left with ice. That is probably the worst thing 86 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:16,799 Speaker 1: about popsicles, but in the nineteen twenties this was actually 87 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:20,279 Speaker 1: a selling point. Pops were sold as drinks that had 88 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: been in solid form. I was totally missing this nuance 89 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: until I read the actual like judges ruling in one 90 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 1: of these lawsuits, and then I was like, wait, wait 91 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 1: a minute, You're supposed to suck on it until all 92 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:36,280 Speaker 1: the syrup comes out and your left with just a 93 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:40,839 Speaker 1: stick of ice. Because I have always deliberately not eaten 94 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 1: them that way, because that bothered me as a child 95 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:47,839 Speaker 1: to have this chunk of flavorless ice lift over. So 96 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:52,920 Speaker 1: in Joe Lo of the eponymous Joe Low Corporation or 97 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 1: Joe Loco wanted to duplicate the success of citrus products 98 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: solid beverages. Joe Loco was a major her supplier to 99 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:03,279 Speaker 1: bakers and confectioners, and it did a lot of business 100 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: selling ingredients to the ice cream industry. So Joel thought 101 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 1: he could combine his existing business network with the patent 102 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:15,159 Speaker 1: that he knew that Popsicle Corporation had and sell lots 103 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:19,720 Speaker 1: of frozen pops. So Joelo went to Popsicle Corporation and 104 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:22,839 Speaker 1: eventually became its sales agent. And that is the business 105 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: arrangement that was in place when Popsicle eventually faced off 106 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 1: against Good Humor Bars. So now for that story. Good 107 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 1: Humor Bars were the invention of Harry Burt of Youngstown, Ohio. 108 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,119 Speaker 1: Bert started off making candy and one of his first 109 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 1: creations was the Jolly Boy Sucker, which was basically a 110 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: lollipop in he figured out how to make a chocolate 111 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:50,359 Speaker 1: coating that would stick to ice cream and solidify. Bless you, 112 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 1: Harry Burt. He gave his daughter Ruth some ice cream 113 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,359 Speaker 1: coated with this shell, and she liked it, but she 114 00:06:56,440 --> 00:07:00,120 Speaker 1: thought it was too messy. Bert's son, Harry Junior or 115 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:03,719 Speaker 1: suggested using the sticks from the the jolly boys suckers 116 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 1: to make an ice cream bar coated with chocolate on 117 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 1: a stick. This became the Good Humor bar, and soon 118 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 1: Bert was selling these bars from trucks and carts that 119 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: were equipped with freezers and bells, and they were driven 120 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 1: by men in clean white uniforms who tipped their hats 121 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 1: at ladies and saluted gentlemen. These good Humor men became 122 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: a summertime staple in the United States from the nineteen 123 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 1: twenties until the nineteen seventies. Harry Burt also made uniform 124 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 1: molds and recipe standards so that he could work with 125 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 1: different manufacturers to churn out the bars while ensuring that 126 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: people would get a consistent product no matter where they 127 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 1: purchased it from. This is how a lot of businesses 128 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 1: work today, but this was a relatively new idea at 129 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 1: this point. Bert also applied for his own patent. It 130 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: was called a Process of Making Frozen Confections, and he 131 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 1: applied for it on January thirtieth nine two. It was 132 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 1: granted him on October ninth, reportedly after he took a 133 00:07:57,800 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 1: bunch of Good Humor bars to the patent office. But 134 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: I couldn't find substantiation for that Bird's patent described making 135 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 1: a confection that has a quote frozen body portion or 136 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 1: heart quote which starts off soft or fluid but has 137 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 1: been hardened by refrigeration. Here's how it describes this process. Quote. 138 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 1: To this end, the handle member, which may or may 139 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: not be of an edible substance, is suitably attached to 140 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 1: the frozen body portion and utilized in the subsequent operations 141 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 1: incident to the manufacture of the confection, as well as 142 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: by the ultimate consumer when eating the confection I eat, 143 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: I put a stick in it. Both of these patents 144 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 1: are in their own way charming, but I find the 145 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:46,199 Speaker 1: popsicle one just to be written in a more delightful 146 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:50,200 Speaker 1: way than the Good Humor one. I think most patents 147 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 1: often come off that way because they they're trying to 148 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: cover their bases and make sure everything is accounted for, 149 00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 1: and sometimes the language gets very stilted and quite as 150 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 1: you said, charming. Uh. The process for making a Good 151 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 1: Humor bar differed a little from the popsicle. So the 152 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 1: popsicle starts with liquid in a test tube, a stick 153 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 1: stuck in, and the whole thing frozen, and then it's 154 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 1: pulled out essentially against a vacuum after some jostling. The 155 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:17,719 Speaker 1: process of making a Good Humor bar starts with the 156 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 1: partially frozen ice cream in a container which the stick 157 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 1: goes into. There's ideally a hole in the bottom of 158 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 1: the container which may be covered temporarily, which allows the 159 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: air to come in when you remove the bar, making 160 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:31,959 Speaker 1: that stup easier, and then it's frozen the rest of 161 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 1: the way, removed from the container and coated with an 162 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 1: edible coating that solidifies. So there are definitely some similarities 163 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:42,680 Speaker 1: in these two patents. Both the Good Humor and Popsicle 164 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 1: patents tout the virtues of not having to touch the 165 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 1: product with your unsanitary, gross hands. They also both have 166 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: a combination of sticks and vessels and frozen deliciousness. There 167 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 1: are differences though, as well. Popsicles at this point were 168 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 1: mostly fruit flavored waters and syrups, while Good Humor bars 169 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 1: were obviously ice cream. Popsicles were thought of as solid beverages, 170 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 1: and Good Humor bars were desserts, and popsicles were shaped 171 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:15,679 Speaker 1: basically like a cylinder, while Good Humor bars were more 172 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:22,200 Speaker 1: like a rectangle, so the typical consumer could immediately figure 173 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:24,959 Speaker 1: out the difference between a popsicle and a Good Humor 174 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 1: bar without really having to think about which was which, 175 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 1: I'm imagining the person holding one of each and going 176 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:38,439 Speaker 1: I can't tell. However, these two companies had some legal 177 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:40,319 Speaker 1: bones to pick, and we're going to talk about those 178 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 1: after we have a brief sponsor break. So, although Good 179 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:47,320 Speaker 1: Humor and Popsicle did eventually face off against one another 180 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:52,080 Speaker 1: in court, their first legal battles were actually against other companies. 181 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: There was a lot of ice cream innovation going on 182 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 1: around the turn of the twentieth century. Ice Cream cones 183 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 1: debut at the very end of the eight hundreds, and 184 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 1: waffle cones came on the scene just after that, Eskimo 185 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 1: Pies came out in and there were lots of different 186 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:12,680 Speaker 1: companies tinkering with various other frozen concoctions. However, when it 187 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:15,680 Speaker 1: came to frozen treats on sticks, Harry Burt really thought 188 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 1: his patent covered all of them. It described a process 189 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 1: of making a frozen treat on a stick, not a 190 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 1: product made from that process, so regardless of exactly what 191 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: that end product looked and tasted like, he considered the 192 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 1: act of making it his own invention. Bert soon filed 193 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:37,960 Speaker 1: suit against Citrus Products of frozen sucker fame, who we 194 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:41,839 Speaker 1: talked about before the break. Originally, these two businesses were 195 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 1: actually on pretty good terms. Citrus Products did not think 196 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:48,680 Speaker 1: that they're frozen suckers were patentable, that didn't really consider 197 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:52,680 Speaker 1: it to be unique enough to require or uh lead 198 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 1: to a patent. But since harry Bird did have a patent, 199 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 1: it thought it had better cover all of its bases 200 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:02,959 Speaker 1: by working out a licensing agreement. However, the two companies 201 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 1: couldn't agree on terms after repeated attempts, and on August 202 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 1: Burt filed suit against Citrus Products claiming patent infringement and 203 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 1: unfair competition in trade. Citrus Products intended to take this 204 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: suit to trial, hoping that the court would set some 205 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:24,199 Speaker 1: limits on what Bert's patents did or did not cover. 206 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 1: Burt himself claimed that it was quote so broad that 207 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 1: it is impossible to make the suckers without infringing the 208 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: same But in ninety six, at Birt's request, the suit 209 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 1: was dismissed. Meanwhile, Popsicle Corporation was waging its own legal 210 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: battles against other companies that were making frozen pops on sticks. 211 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 1: First came Cold Cake Company in New Jersey and MB 212 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:53,079 Speaker 1: ice Cream Company in Texas. In all of these companies 213 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: had non standard spelling. Cold Cake Company was spelled with 214 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:00,559 Speaker 1: k's instead of seeds for cold and cake an MB 215 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: ice Cream Company Ice has spelled I s E, and 216 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 1: cream is spelled k r E a m. A Court 217 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 1: upheld Popsicles patent on November twentie of that year, and 218 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:13,320 Speaker 1: the following year It's filed suit against the more companies, 219 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 1: including several Philadelphia businesses, and Horn ice Cream Company of 220 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: Maryland and Robert Bayer of New York, neither of which 221 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 1: is spelled weirdly at all. It turned out that both 222 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 1: Horn ice Cream and MB ice Cream were affiliated with 223 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: Citrus Products. Citrus Products said it was actually MB ice 224 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:34,200 Speaker 1: Cream that developed the frozen sucker in the first place. 225 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 1: So at this point both Harry Burt and Popsicle Corporation had, 226 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:42,080 Speaker 1: in one way or another sued Citrus Products. While Bert 227 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:45,560 Speaker 1: eventually had his suit dismissed, Popsicle and Citrus settled out 228 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 1: of court. Then, in February of the two major players 229 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 1: in our story finally faced off in court against each 230 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 1: other when Bert filed suit against Popsical Corporation in the U. S. 231 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 1: District Court of Southern New York. That October, the two 232 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 1: companies reached a legal agreement together. In this agreement, they 233 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:09,079 Speaker 1: agreed not to sue each other anymore. Popsicle Company got 234 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 1: the rights to make cylindrical frozen things on sticks out 235 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 1: of syrups, water, ice, and shervets, and Bert got to 236 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 1: make rectangular frozen things on sticks out of ice creams 237 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 1: and frozen custards. This cut Citrus Products out of the 238 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 1: frozen pop game, so in nine seven it worked out 239 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 1: a deal to join Joe Loco in acting as Popsicles agents. 240 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 1: So we wound up with in the syruppy fruity frozen 241 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 1: cylinder camp, Joe Loco, Citrus Products and Popsicle Company working together, 242 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 1: and in the rectangular ice cream bar on stick camp 243 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 1: good Humor. These businesses spent the next several years making 244 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:51,479 Speaker 1: their specified varieties of frozen treats. That is, until Popsicle 245 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 1: wanted to make its products creamier. You can imagine that 246 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 1: might cause a problem, and we're going to talk about 247 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 1: that after we have a brief word from a sponsor. 248 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 1: Harry Bert unfortunately did not get to see much of 249 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 1: his company's success. After its first round of legal issues 250 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 1: with Popsicle were resolved, he died in and left his 251 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 1: business to his wife, Cora. She sold basically everything related 252 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 1: to the Good Humor business except for the popsicle licensing, 253 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 1: to Midland Food Products Company, which changed its name to 254 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 1: Good Humor Corporation. Cora Bert actually later remarried and became 255 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 1: Corrobert Roller, and Good Humor was later sold to MJ. Mihan. 256 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 1: But then came another big change, and that was the 257 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 1: Great Depression. Because they were made of frozen waters and syrups, 258 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 1: popsicles were really pretty cheap to make. Good Humor Bars, 259 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 1: on the other hand, started with ice cream, which was 260 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 1: just more expensive. So Good Humor bars sold for ten 261 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 1: cents apiece and popsicles could go for half as much. 262 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 1: When financial times got tough, people who couldn't afford ten 263 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 1: cents for a Good Humor Bar might be able to 264 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 1: pay half as much for a popsicle. According to its 265 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: ad campaigns, more than two two hundred million popsicles were 266 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: sold in ninety one alone. Eventually, though, some of popsicles 267 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 1: licensees wanted to be able to sell some kind of 268 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: cheap competitor to good humor bars. Dairy prices were falling, 269 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 1: which made the idea more feasible feasible than it had 270 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 1: been when good humor bars are first developed. So in 271 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: the fall of nine one, Popsicle, Joe Loco, and Citrus 272 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 1: Products all got together and approached Good Humor with the 273 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 1: proposed revision to their ninety five agreement. This trio of 274 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 1: companies wanted to manufacture products that more resembled ice cream 275 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: but contained less than four point five percent butterfat, also 276 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 1: known as milk fat. Good Humor would retain the rights 277 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 1: to making products that contained more milk fat than that. 278 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 1: The Popsicle, Joe, Loco Citrus alliance thought it had a 279 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 1: strong case here, since the agreement specified that Popsicle could 280 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 1: make sherbet based products. Today, sherbets are made with about 281 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 1: one to three percent milk fat, and frozen dessert manufacturers 282 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:06,920 Speaker 1: generally agree that sherbet's do include milk fat, but there 283 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:10,440 Speaker 1: wasn't a legal definition or even a working industry definition 284 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 1: for what sherbet's actually were, and a lot of people 285 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:16,720 Speaker 1: use the term synonymously with sorbet, which is a frozen 286 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 1: fruity dessert which generally includes no more than a trace 287 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:24,160 Speaker 1: of dairy. So the Popsicle argument was, we can make 288 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 1: these dairy based bars based on our original licensing agreement, 289 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:31,160 Speaker 1: because that says we can make frozen treats out of sherbet. 290 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: The Good Humors car counter argument was that's not what 291 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 1: Sherbet means, and we are the only ones who can 292 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 1: make dairy based ice cream bars on sticks. Of course, 293 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 1: Good Humor was also protecting its own interests here. It 294 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 1: was on the verge of launching its own less milk 295 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 1: fatty version of the Good Humor bar, called the Cheerio Bar, 296 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:52,439 Speaker 1: which would cost five cents and be more like a 297 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:55,200 Speaker 1: frozen ice milk bar than a frozen ice cream bar. 298 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:59,639 Speaker 1: The result of this attempt at agreement was that Popsicle 299 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,920 Speaker 1: just it ahead and gave its licensees permission to start 300 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 1: making a so called milk popsicle, regardless of how the 301 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 1: Good Humor company felt about it. The milk popsicle had 302 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:13,160 Speaker 1: four point four eight percent butter butter fat, so it 303 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: was barely under the line that it had presented to 304 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:19,639 Speaker 1: Good Humor as the upper threshold for products it was 305 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 1: interested in making. The milk popsicle also departed from the 306 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:28,400 Speaker 1: cylindrical shape that had been outlined in those first Popsicle patents. Instead, 307 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:33,640 Speaker 1: the milk popsicle was shaped for like a keystone. Unsurprisingly, 308 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:37,640 Speaker 1: Good Humor took Popsicle to court, cleaming infringement on two fronts, 309 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:40,399 Speaker 1: for sure making a popsicle with milk in it, and 310 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 1: then for making a rectangular popsicle. When it came to 311 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:46,360 Speaker 1: presenting their evidence in court, the heart of the two 312 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:49,399 Speaker 1: companies arguments was exactly how you define sure of it. 313 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:53,200 Speaker 1: They pulled in definitions from dictionaries, they talked to ice 314 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:57,879 Speaker 1: cream industry experts, and also thirty two different state regulators 315 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:02,879 Speaker 1: on how you defined ice cream in different states. But 316 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 1: in the end, none of that really mattered, and Judge 317 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:09,120 Speaker 1: John Jay neild based his ruling on something else entirely 318 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 1: with the two companies believed when they had signed their 319 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:15,400 Speaker 1: agreement in the first place. He pointed out that Popsicle 320 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 1: had been making its products with water based mixtures, not 321 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:22,119 Speaker 1: milk based mixtures, for six years with no problems. He 322 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 1: didn't get into the issue of the shape of the 323 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:27,439 Speaker 1: bar at all. Judge Neilds issued an injunction against the 324 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 1: Milk Popsicle on ninety two if you read his court ruling. 325 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 1: His tone is basically, are you too serious? You've been 326 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 1: fine for six years and now you are deliberately doing 327 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:48,359 Speaker 1: this thing that's obviously not what you've been doing. Go 328 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:51,200 Speaker 1: to your room, like, couldn't we solve this problem six 329 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:56,879 Speaker 1: years ago? So uh? The judge did not resolve the 330 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:00,200 Speaker 1: differences between Good Humor and Popsicle, and both of them 331 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:04,359 Speaker 1: appealed each for different reasons. Good Humor wanted the court 332 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:08,640 Speaker 1: also to find that the milk popsicle was a rectangular 333 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 1: shape and that was a problem. Popsicle wanted the court 334 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:19,199 Speaker 1: to find that their definition of sherbet was legitimate. I 335 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:22,120 Speaker 1: love this, And the thing is, I know that when 336 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 1: you're talking about this on the scale of big business, 337 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:29,119 Speaker 1: this is a very real and serious battle. But just 338 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 1: the idea of someone putting so much money and effort 339 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:35,919 Speaker 1: and research into arguing over what sherbet is the lights 340 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 1: and and makes me giggle. The fact that they got 341 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 1: expert testimony from thirty two different states state regulators about 342 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:46,639 Speaker 1: what sherbet is. That sounds like the most pedantic food 343 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:50,159 Speaker 1: conversation ever in a court of law, which I actually 344 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 1: would love to read through the whole thing at some point, 345 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:56,920 Speaker 1: but the Third Circuit Court of Appeals affirm Judge Neil's ruling, 346 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 1: still declining to weigh in on what sherbet is or 347 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 1: how the milk popsicle was shaped. However, before the court 348 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 1: had a chance to actually render this opinion, Good Humor 349 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 1: Im Popsicle signed a new agreement on April seventh of 350 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty three. The two companies agreed to basically do 351 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 1: what they've been doing for six years, making popsicles out 352 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:18,639 Speaker 1: of mostly water or syrup and making Good Humor bars 353 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: out of dairy misfortunately. I guess, depending on whose side 354 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 1: you're on, it was not a total loss for Popsicle. 355 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 1: Joe Loo suggested that Popsicle used this keystone shaped mold 356 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 1: to create a popsicle with two sticks in it, which 357 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 1: could be split and shared. That would let customers get 358 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:39,360 Speaker 1: more of their gradt of their Great Depression dollars by 359 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 1: basically giving them two popsicles for everyone. And as a 360 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:46,719 Speaker 1: side note, that two stick version went off the market 361 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,159 Speaker 1: in the mid nineteen eighties, and it was replaced with 362 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: a one stick version of roughly the same size, as 363 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 1: hilariously reported in The New York Times, quote small children, 364 00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 1: it seemed couldn't look fast enough in alternating sequences to 365 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:02,680 Speaker 1: keep one or the other stick from dripping. This meant 366 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: that children were getting two popsicles rather than sharing them 367 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 1: with a friend or sibling, or they were just eating 368 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:12,360 Speaker 1: them without breaking them apart. First, there's a similarly exasperated 369 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 1: sounding quote in this uh in this New York Times 370 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:19,639 Speaker 1: article that talks to one of the popsicle executives, and 371 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 1: it's like, Hey, doesn't this mean you all aren't in 372 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,920 Speaker 1: favor of sharing? Uh? And he has a similarly are 373 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,400 Speaker 1: you kidding me? Kind of tone and talks about how, 374 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,680 Speaker 1: like the weight of the two stick popsicle was this much, 375 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: but each of the single stick popsicles it's replacing it 376 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:39,160 Speaker 1: is this much. So it's basically the same thing, just 377 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:46,119 Speaker 1: already broken in half for you. So, in our last 378 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 1: extremely silly twist, M J. Mihans sold Good Humor to 379 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:53,479 Speaker 1: the Thomas J. Lipton Company, a division of Unilever, in 380 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:58,919 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty one. Then Unilever bought the popsicle brand in 381 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: nine and six years after the death of its inventor, 382 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 1: Frank Epperson. So, now these two former adversaries who went 383 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 1: to court repeatedly to decide who got to make what 384 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 1: out of frozen stuff on sticks are now both part 385 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:21,359 Speaker 1: of the same business. Oh, popsicles and Delicious Nous break. 386 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 1: Maybe the popsicle people will be here today and I 387 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 1: can go have a popsicle after this. Well, and that's 388 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,440 Speaker 1: another thing that I learned about researching this. If we're 389 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:33,679 Speaker 1: talking about King of Pops, which is an Atlanta um 390 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 1: artisanal delicious pop creator, popsicle is still a trademark, so 391 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:41,679 Speaker 1: that is why when you go to their website everything 392 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,399 Speaker 1: is described as pops and not as popsicles. I didn't 393 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: know this. Apparently in a lever sometimes will aggressively defend 394 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: it's popsicle trademark. Well, and it is funny because I 395 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:55,119 Speaker 1: think a lot of people it's kind of like that 396 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 1: Kleenex thing where people call all tissues Kleenex, where most 397 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 1: people call all frozen treats the six Dairy, specifically on 398 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:08,679 Speaker 1: sticks popsicles, but that is a trademark name. Do you 399 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:10,439 Speaker 1: also have a little bit of listener mail for us 400 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 1: to enjoy? I do, And it's it's slightly more serious 401 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:17,159 Speaker 1: than this episode has been. Today. I felt like this 402 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 1: was like the summer break Frozen Treat Let's have class 403 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:24,439 Speaker 1: outside episode. Uh this is from Sumner and Sumner says Hi, 404 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:26,919 Speaker 1: Tracy and Holly. I've been listening to the podcast for 405 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: several years now, but haven't had a reason to write 406 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 1: in until now. I just finished listening to the album 407 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 1: Palace episode when you brought up the Tumbler post which 408 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,399 Speaker 1: did not mentioned the album Palaces connection to slavery. It 409 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:41,159 Speaker 1: reminded me of what a friends told me about a 410 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 1: recent trip to Portugal. This friend went there with a 411 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 1: free a few Brazilian friends. While touring cathedrals and palaces 412 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 1: and Portugal, he noticed a friction developed between the Brazilians 413 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 1: and the Portuguese tour god and the official tour narrative. 414 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,400 Speaker 1: The buildings were symbols of the pride of the Portuguese 415 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 1: Empire for the brazil and they were symbols of colonial oppression. 416 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,119 Speaker 1: The Brazilians would frequently ask the tour guide how the 417 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:07,440 Speaker 1: building they were touring was funded and where the building 418 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 1: materials came from. In many cases, none of the tour 419 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 1: guides knew the exact details. But it made my friend 420 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 1: really change his perspective on the beautiful art he was seeing, 421 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 1: especially when looking at the masterpieces of European architecture and art, 422 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,400 Speaker 1: we seem to gloss over their connections to colonialism and slavery. 423 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,959 Speaker 1: With the masterpieces of the sixteenth and seventeenth century architecture 424 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:31,120 Speaker 1: and art exist if many of their commissioners, nobles, royals, 425 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:35,360 Speaker 1: merchants were not profiting from colonial trade. With the abundance 426 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,159 Speaker 1: of gold and silver in Latin, American and Iberian art 427 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 1: from the so called Age of Discovery exist without the 428 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 1: conquest of the Americas and the influx of precious metals 429 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 1: from Mexico and Peru. Although I think you're both quite 430 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 1: right and saying that the Album Palace should be mentioned 431 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 1: in the context of the trans Atlantic slave trade, I 432 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:54,399 Speaker 1: also think that we should take it upon ourselves to 433 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 1: rethink art and architecture we do not immediately associate with 434 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 1: colonialism and the slave trade. I want to thank you 435 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,440 Speaker 1: both for giving me something engaging and educational to learn 436 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 1: when I'm commuting to and fround School. Thank you so much, Sumner. 437 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 1: That is a totally valid point, and it is a 438 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:14,639 Speaker 1: point that there have been some really interesting books that 439 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,399 Speaker 1: have come out lately that have kind of traced the 440 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 1: ongoing UH legacy of slavery and institutions that people haven't 441 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:27,919 Speaker 1: necessarily associated with slavery. Um. There was one that came 442 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 1: out a couple of years ago that was called Ebony 443 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:34,399 Speaker 1: and Ivy, which was about Ivy League colleges which are 444 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:39,200 Speaker 1: almost exclusively in like New England and other northern parts 445 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 1: of the United States, and how they a lot of 446 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 1: them were initially built mostly on slave labor, which is 447 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 1: not really discussed and not really thought about in the 448 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:52,639 Speaker 1: context of Ivy League schools very often. UM, which I 449 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,239 Speaker 1: know there are people who wish we would shut up 450 00:26:55,240 --> 00:27:00,359 Speaker 1: about slavery, but I think until until it becomes second 451 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 1: nature to think about the legacies that that created these 452 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 1: great buildings and great works of art and things that 453 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,399 Speaker 1: have lasted for hundreds of years that were really built 454 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 1: on exploiting the other other people, I think that will 455 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:13,639 Speaker 1: be something that we will continue to talk about on 456 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 1: the podcast on a regular basis. So thank you again, 457 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:21,399 Speaker 1: Um Sumner for writing to us about that. If you 458 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:23,160 Speaker 1: would like to write to us about this or any 459 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 1: other subject, we're a history podcast that has stufworks dot com. 460 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 1: We're also on Facebook at facebook dot com slashness History, 461 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 1: and on Twitter at miss in History. Our tumbler is 462 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:34,720 Speaker 1: missed in History dot tumbler dot com and Russell on 463 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,119 Speaker 1: Pinterest at pinterest dot com slashmesth in history. We have 464 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 1: a spreadshirt store it isn't missed in History dot spreadshirt 465 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,480 Speaker 1: dot com. 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