WEBVTT - #101 Jason Flom with Valentino Dixon 0:00:01.520 --> 0:00:05.080 In twenty eighteen, I interviewed Valentino Dixon. He had been 0:00:05.080 --> 0:00:08.520 out of prison for just twenty nine days after serving 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:11.440 almost three decades for a crime they knew he didn't 0:00:11.480 --> 0:00:15.400 commit from the first moment. There was no need to 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:18.159 prosecute him. There was no need to arrest him. He 0:00:18.440 --> 0:00:23.040 had alibis. I mean, it's crazy. So the good news 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:25.919 is some incredible things have been happening for Valentino since 0:00:25.920 --> 0:00:28.120 he got out and since he recorded his episode of 0:00:28.120 --> 0:00:31.280 Wrongful Conpiction that you're about to hear. In twenty nineteen, 0:00:31.560 --> 0:00:34.640 he had his first art show, his solo art show 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.720 in New York City, and since then it's taken off. 0:00:37.760 --> 0:00:40.720 He was a guest of the PGA at the Masters Championship, 0:00:40.760 --> 0:00:44.040 where he famously told Tiger Woods in the Butler cabin 0:00:44.120 --> 0:00:47.600 he said, you're gonna win, and you know what happened. 0:00:47.640 --> 0:00:52.760 He won. The pictures from that trip where extraordinary. Valentino 0:00:52.800 --> 0:00:57.160 has traveled the world, been to golf courses all over 0:00:57.200 --> 0:01:01.600 the place. He's become a favorite among the top PGA players, 0:01:02.280 --> 0:01:06.240 and his art has been selling like hotcakes. I hope 0:01:06.280 --> 0:01:08.559 you get a chance to check it out. He's also 0:01:08.600 --> 0:01:12.880 got a line of greeting cards. That's extraordinary. And Valentino 0:01:13.120 --> 0:01:15.880 is just like a beacon of light. I mean, this guy, 0:01:17.240 --> 0:01:21.840 he drops some knowledge on this episode that is just 0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:27.880 like verbal gold and spiritual gold. He is an extraordinary, 0:01:27.920 --> 0:01:32.200 extraordinary man. I'm honored to be presenting to you my 0:01:32.319 --> 0:01:36.120 episode of Wrongful Conviction with Valentino Dixon. 0:01:40.319 --> 0:01:41.880 I've never been in trouble in my life. I didn't 0:01:41.880 --> 0:01:43.560 even have a Perkin ticket, you know what I mean. 0:01:43.840 --> 0:01:47.240 I was brought up like cops are the good guys. 0:01:48.040 --> 0:01:50.120 I didn't know what was gonna happen, but I do 0:01:50.280 --> 0:01:55.800 know that everything was stacked against me. Everything everything, This 0:01:55.920 --> 0:02:00.720 isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I know 0:02:00.840 --> 0:02:03.040 I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to do with this. 0:02:03.880 --> 0:02:05.440 How is this possible? 0:02:06.440 --> 0:02:08.800 I grew up trusting the systems. I've grew up believing 0:02:08.800 --> 0:02:11.840 that every human being should do the right thing. And 0:02:11.960 --> 0:02:13.760 that's why, even though I knew I was dealing with 0:02:13.760 --> 0:02:15.880 core rough people, I wasn't going to break anyone to 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:18.840 get me out of prison because I wouldn't live with 0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:20.440 the fact that I braved my way out of my 0:02:20.480 --> 0:02:21.040 wife's death. 0:02:22.560 --> 0:02:25.640 I'm not innocent. Too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:28.320 prove my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me. 0:02:29.440 --> 0:02:30.040 Our system. 0:02:30.200 --> 0:02:31.679 Since I've been out ten years, it has come a 0:02:31.680 --> 0:02:33.680 little ways, but it's still broken. 0:02:35.000 --> 0:02:37.679 I totally lost trust in humanity after what's happened to it. 0:02:39.200 --> 0:02:43.960 Welcome back to Wrong for Conviction. I am extremely excited 0:02:43.960 --> 0:02:48.440 today to have somebody who I admire greatly, Valentino Dixon. 0:02:48.639 --> 0:02:49.680 Welcome to the show. 0:02:49.760 --> 0:02:50.600 Thank you for having me. 0:02:51.080 --> 0:02:51.160 So. 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:56.520 Valentino was released from prison declared actually innocent twenty nine 0:02:56.600 --> 0:03:01.880 days ago, after having been in since nineteen ninety one. Yeah, 0:03:03.280 --> 0:03:04.920 and we are in twenty eighteen. 0:03:05.600 --> 0:03:07.000 That's right, that's what they tell me. 0:03:07.200 --> 0:03:10.960 Yeah, so that's a long long time. 0:03:11.240 --> 0:03:12.440 Yes, yes, it is. 0:03:15.160 --> 0:03:17.800 For crime that not only didn't you commit, but a 0:03:17.800 --> 0:03:20.720 crime that everybody knew you didn't commit from day one, 0:03:20.919 --> 0:03:24.200 because of the simple fact that the actual killer confessed 0:03:24.360 --> 0:03:25.359 on video. 0:03:25.760 --> 0:03:28.320 And here two days after I was arrested. 0:03:28.840 --> 0:03:31.120 Right, so you know, and I hear myself say that, 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:35.040 and I'm like, Okay, that can't be. I mean, that 0:03:35.080 --> 0:03:38.280 doesn't make any logical sense our system, and that wasn't 0:03:38.320 --> 0:03:40.360 the only time you confessed. But let's go back. I mean, 0:03:40.840 --> 0:03:47.680 we're talking about a murder case, seventy witnesses. It would 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:51.720 seem impossible for this to have happened in a situation 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:54.560 like this one. This was not an isolated thing on 0:03:54.640 --> 0:03:58.800 a dutchy road somewhere. This was a crowded it was 0:03:58.840 --> 0:04:02.520 a summer night in Buffalo, New York East Buffalo, right, yep. 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:07.760 And I guess let's go right to it because it's 0:04:07.840 --> 0:04:10.680 such an incredible story and there's so much to it 0:04:10.800 --> 0:04:13.720 as we get to the way that you got out 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:18.880 is as extraordinary as it is unique, because you basically 0:04:19.000 --> 0:04:22.280 drew yourself out of prison with colored pencils, I mean, 0:04:22.400 --> 0:04:25.240 and a lot of help from a lot of different people, 0:04:25.360 --> 0:04:30.000 including some incredible, incredible students at Georgetown University. And I 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:33.400 have a very strong connection there in a lot of ways. 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:36.880 So I'm super excited to be able to meet you 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:42.680 and share this experience in person and not behind walls. 0:04:43.240 --> 0:04:48.919 So let's go back to that, faithful, What was morning, right? 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:52.200 It was early in the morning, one in the morning 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:57.239 on August tenth, nineteen ninety one. Take our audience into 0:04:57.560 --> 0:05:01.800 you were nearby. But I don't, I mean, I know 0:05:01.880 --> 0:05:03.599 the story, but I want to hear it in your words. 0:05:03.839 --> 0:05:11.120 Well, I was hanging out with some friends, and before 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:15.279 I came on the scene, some threats had been made, okay, 0:05:15.560 --> 0:05:17.600 but it wasn't my issue, so I didn't think a 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:19.240 whole lot of it. You know, where I come from, 0:05:19.279 --> 0:05:23.039 these type of things happen all the time. No, the 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:26.440 threats were made, I was aware of it. I went 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:29.200 inside the store to get a beer. I'm reaching in 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:32.520 the cooler and I hear pop pop. So instead of 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:34.239 standing in the store, I run out of the store. 0:05:34.400 --> 0:05:36.000 So you knew what it was right away. 0:05:36.120 --> 0:05:38.240 Of course, I've heard gunfire before. I come from the 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:41.400 worst parts of Buffalo, New York. I mean, very violent area, 0:05:41.520 --> 0:05:45.680 drug infested area, so you know, gunfire wasn't something that 0:05:46.880 --> 0:05:49.599 was new to me. You know. So I'm in the store, 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:51.479 reaching to get a beer out and I hear the 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:53.760 pop pop. The only thing that come in my mind 0:05:53.839 --> 0:05:57.080 is that whatever they was talking about just happened. So 0:05:57.200 --> 0:05:58.680 instead of standing in the store, I ran out of 0:05:58.680 --> 0:06:01.400 the store to be nosy or whatever, young and stupid, 0:06:02.560 --> 0:06:06.520 and two or three guys they you know, engaging in 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:10.040 a gunfight, you know, So I run around the gunfight 0:06:10.080 --> 0:06:12.080 to get to my car, jumps in my car and 0:06:12.120 --> 0:06:19.560 pulls off. Uh shortly thereafter and pulled over, uh, handcuffed, 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:22.119 And at the time they told me that they wanted 0:06:22.160 --> 0:06:25.080 to just interview me. Okay, so I just figured that, 0:06:25.279 --> 0:06:27.440 uh maybe they figured I was a witness and uh 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:30.960 maybe I had some information. A couple hours later, they 0:06:31.040 --> 0:06:34.240 charged me with murder, second degree murder, uh, two assaults 0:06:34.279 --> 0:06:38.000 cause four people were shot. So in my mind, there's 0:06:38.080 --> 0:06:40.440 no way that you know, uh, I'm gonna stay in 0:06:40.520 --> 0:06:42.479 jail for this, because there was too many people out there, 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:44.320 and a lot of people out there knew me, you know, 0:06:44.360 --> 0:06:47.320 they knew my face. You know, when you have sixty 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:50.600 seventy eighty people out there, Uh, there's no way that 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:56.039 they can get this wrong. Anyway. The guy that committed 0:06:56.080 --> 0:06:59.080 his crime felt bad about what happened, you know, and 0:06:59.120 --> 0:07:01.240 the guy that he killed, they actually found his gun 0:07:01.279 --> 0:07:03.680 at the scene of the crime, you know, but the 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:07.240 prosecutor's office said that the gun played no part in 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:07.680 the crime. 0:07:08.080 --> 0:07:09.720 Wait wait, wait, okay, hold on, let's go back to 0:07:09.760 --> 0:07:11.200 this for a second. So, first of all, you're twenty 0:07:11.240 --> 0:07:14.800 one years old at this time, and four people get shot, 0:07:15.000 --> 0:07:16.800 right Toriano Jackson was killed. 0:07:16.920 --> 0:07:19.520 Yeah, and his brother was shot, and Mariol Jarman was 0:07:19.520 --> 0:07:23.480 shot because Tory shot Mario before this guy Lamore ran 0:07:23.600 --> 0:07:26.280 up and shot Tory and Aaron. You know, he came 0:07:26.320 --> 0:07:27.520 to Mario's defense. 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:30.720 Got it and he said, I saw the video where 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:32.560 he said that he couldn't control the weapon and it 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:33.960 just well automatic weapon. 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:36.240 Yeah, from where when I ran down the street towards 0:07:36.320 --> 0:07:39.400 my car, I actually turned around and the shooting was 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:41.720 still going on. You know, Lamore was doing the ball 0:07:41.760 --> 0:07:43.520 of the shooting at the time. You know, I could 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:46.400 see it from where I was. You know. When the 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:50.120 police you know, pulled me over, of course, I said 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:53.680 I didn't know who did the shooting. You know, it's 0:07:53.800 --> 0:07:56.920 like a cold thing, you know, that's not my business. 0:07:58.400 --> 0:08:01.080 And they pretty much told me that if I didn't 0:08:01.080 --> 0:08:03.920 tell them who did the shooting, that I was going 0:08:03.920 --> 0:08:06.320 down for the shooting. Not at the time, because I 0:08:06.400 --> 0:08:09.440 knew it was seventy eighty witnesses. All I need to 0:08:09.440 --> 0:08:11.120 do is keep my mouth shut and I'm going home 0:08:11.200 --> 0:08:13.480 because it's the other people that's gonna tell them what happened. 0:08:13.960 --> 0:08:17.720 You know, you can't get this wrong. But at the 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:21.360 end of the day, after Lamar confessed, they told him 0:08:21.400 --> 0:08:24.800 to leave the police station. They refused to hold him. 0:08:25.800 --> 0:08:28.120 Eight or nine witnesses came forth and told the police 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:30.720 I didn't do the shooting. They disregarded all of them. 0:08:31.200 --> 0:08:33.319 I found myself going to trial ten months later. 0:08:34.120 --> 0:08:36.400 So you were in jail for these ten months waiting 0:08:36.559 --> 0:08:39.920 no bail, they said, Nobel, you were held with out bail. Yeah, 0:08:40.000 --> 0:08:41.760 and even if it had been bailed, the probably wouldn't 0:08:41.760 --> 0:08:44.760 be able to bail out, regardless wealthy family or anything 0:08:44.800 --> 0:08:49.280 like that. I had a public defender, public defender. And 0:08:49.320 --> 0:08:51.280 you were the only person arrested for this. 0:08:51.440 --> 0:08:52.559 I was the only person arrested. 0:08:53.600 --> 0:08:56.360 And did they test you for the residue? 0:08:56.720 --> 0:08:59.520 They took my clothes, they took my car. They told me, 0:08:59.559 --> 0:09:01.880 if I fire the weapon and they would know, there's 0:09:01.920 --> 0:09:03.319 no way I would have been able to wipe off 0:09:03.360 --> 0:09:05.280 that much gum part of the residues. This is what 0:09:05.320 --> 0:09:05.760 they told me. 0:09:05.920 --> 0:09:08.760 Of course, I were right right. It was only minutes 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:09.800 later when you got pulled over. 0:09:10.160 --> 0:09:14.880 So I just knew once they took this stuff to 0:09:14.920 --> 0:09:16.640 the lab or whatever they were going to do with it, 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:19.120 that I would be okay, you know. But even then, 0:09:19.160 --> 0:09:22.079 with all of those witnesses. You know, I didn't ever 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:25.800 expect for this guy to come and confessed. You know, 0:09:26.320 --> 0:09:29.200 that was something that people don't do. You know, he 0:09:29.320 --> 0:09:31.000 came and confessed, and they kicked him out of the 0:09:31.040 --> 0:09:33.520 police station said, you know, like get out of here. 0:09:33.600 --> 0:09:37.120 We don't believe you. Okay, that's crazy, you know, it's 0:09:37.400 --> 0:09:39.040 it's you can't make this stuff up. 0:09:39.280 --> 0:09:42.320 But valancing what I mean, what could have You've had 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:45.360 twenty almost thirty years to think about this, right, the 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:46.520 better part of three decades to. 0:09:46.559 --> 0:09:47.080 Think about this. 0:09:47.920 --> 0:09:52.360 What could they possibly have been thinking if they had 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:53.560 the actual killer. 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:57.480 First of all, it was ego, you know, when you 0:09:57.480 --> 0:10:03.000 have eagles and careers on the line, you know, and 0:10:03.160 --> 0:10:04.800 you don't want to admit that you made a mistake. 0:10:05.200 --> 0:10:07.360 You know, I'm a young black guy from the hood 0:10:07.600 --> 0:10:10.600 with no money. We don't even have to say that 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:12.440 we made a mistake here. We're just going to go 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:14.600 through this process and convict him. 0:10:14.640 --> 0:10:17.600 But this wasn't a particularly high profile can we know that? 0:10:17.960 --> 0:10:22.400 You know, No, it wasn't, you know, but for whatever reason, 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:26.080 the prosecutor at the time, you know, he was, this 0:10:26.160 --> 0:10:30.960 guy was, you know, criminal. I call him a criminal. 0:10:31.200 --> 0:10:33.400 You know, in fact, he was with the DA's officers 0:10:33.400 --> 0:10:36.080 not saying right now that they fired this guy. You know, 0:10:36.360 --> 0:10:39.120 they fired him, and even when I was released, these 0:10:39.679 --> 0:10:42.160 facts never came out. They kicked him out of the office. 0:10:42.920 --> 0:10:45.040 You know, he even admitted that, you know, he could 0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:47.880 have made a mistake in my case six seven years ago, 0:10:48.600 --> 0:10:51.040 that he's only human. But I still sat in prison. 0:10:51.240 --> 0:10:52.720 You know, it's just a matter of like, how do 0:10:52.800 --> 0:10:56.200 you like when you see these guys with women to 0:10:56.840 --> 0:10:59.800 ten twenty thirty forty years and maybe thirty years and 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:01.800 or wrongful conviction? You say, how did it get to 0:11:01.840 --> 0:11:04.520 this point? And it got to this point because nobody 0:11:04.520 --> 0:11:08.559 wants to take responsibility and you know, and I guess 0:11:08.559 --> 0:11:10.440 they look at it as we'll left the next judge 0:11:10.440 --> 0:11:12.920 and the next prosecutor fix it, and next thing, you know, 0:11:13.040 --> 0:11:15.959 you have ten twenty thirty years in when the evidence 0:11:16.040 --> 0:11:17.760 existed from day one. Right. 0:11:17.760 --> 0:11:21.000 But going back, the thing about your case that's so 0:11:22.120 --> 0:11:28.200 maddening and confusing and just inexplicable. 0:11:27.480 --> 0:11:30.320 Don't try to don't try to figure it out, Jason. 0:11:30.320 --> 0:11:36.839 There's no there's no way to there's nothing to figure 0:11:36.880 --> 0:11:39.400 out here. This is this is our system, and if 0:11:39.400 --> 0:11:42.400 you come up against a bad prosecutor or a couple 0:11:42.440 --> 0:11:45.720 of bad cops, then this is what's gonna happen. People 0:11:45.720 --> 0:11:47.480 are human beings, and this you know, you have some 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:48.959 bad apples in the system. 0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:50.520 I'm right with you, and I'm picking up what you're 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:53.320 putting down. But having been doing this for twenty five 0:11:53.400 --> 0:11:56.800 years now and having been we we're in seven seasons 0:11:56.800 --> 0:12:00.360 of the show, so we've gotten in real granular tell 0:12:00.480 --> 0:12:02.640 with so many people who are wrong for the convicted, 0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:05.400 like yourself. And you know, just when I think I've 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:07.600 heard every story, and of course somebody like you comes 0:12:07.600 --> 0:12:09.560 along and I'm like, oh, I've never heard anything like 0:12:09.600 --> 0:12:12.000 that before. Because in this case, the one thing that 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:16.679 I'm focusing on right now is the idea that they 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:20.520 didn't have to worry about being mistaken, because it would 0:12:20.559 --> 0:12:22.680 have been it wouldn't even made the twentieth page of 0:12:22.720 --> 0:12:25.160 the newspaper. They would have just exchanged you for Lamar. 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:27.599 It was the actual killer, right and they would have 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:29.280 kept him moving. They would have had a rightful conviction, 0:12:29.360 --> 0:12:30.920 and then nobody else would have got shot. And we 0:12:30.960 --> 0:12:33.040 know that's exactly what did happen till we'll get to. 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:36.480 That well, let me just say this, I'm a stronger 0:12:36.520 --> 0:12:38.880 believer in God, and I have a strong faith, you know, 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:40.680 and I believe that he had a plan for me, 0:12:41.240 --> 0:12:43.760 you know, And that was my way of rationalizing what 0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:46.360 happened here and keeping my sanity, you know, because you know, 0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:51.680 prison is designed to break the spirit. So I knew 0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:53.560 that guy had a plan for me, and he kept 0:12:53.600 --> 0:12:56.360 me strong, you know. He you know, allowed me to 0:12:57.080 --> 0:13:01.400 learn a lot, read a lot, educate myself elf, you know. 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:04.320 And that's I would like to, you know, pretty much 0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:08.240 leave it there, you know, when it comes to trying 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:09.880 to figure out why did this happened? 0:13:12.040 --> 0:13:14.720 The I'm gonna say. 0:13:15.559 --> 0:13:17.320 I mean, you can go on and on. I'm just 0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:19.839 saying in my mind, you know, I have to keep 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:22.080 it as simple as possible to keep my sanity, you know, 0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:26.440 you know, I mean, it was like the worst nightmare 0:13:26.480 --> 0:13:29.360 in the world, you know, and you can't even make 0:13:29.400 --> 0:13:33.920 a night you can't even you can't even put a 0:13:33.920 --> 0:13:36.360 script together and make a nightmare out of this thing, 0:13:36.480 --> 0:13:39.600 like it's I mean, even when I went to trial, 0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:41.680 I could have been acquitted. Had my lawyer call the 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:43.720 witnesses that he promised the jury he would call. 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:46.200 That's exactly what I want to get to now, because 0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:52.280 your case, as much as it has some extremely unique aspects, 0:13:52.440 --> 0:13:55.719 it also has some some characteristics that we see over 0:13:55.760 --> 0:13:57.800 and over again and wrong for conviction cases. And one 0:13:57.840 --> 0:14:01.480 of them was the fact that you were represented by 0:14:01.679 --> 0:14:07.160 a grossly incompetent public defender. And I'm somebody who has 0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:09.360 a ton of respect for public defenders. In fact, if 0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:11.640 anyone who can see that movie Gideon's Promise, you come 0:14:11.640 --> 0:14:13.000 out of that and you watch it and you go, man, 0:14:13.160 --> 0:14:15.439 it's a noble profession. And there's a lot of people 0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:19.120 out there busting their ass for very little money on 0:14:20.160 --> 0:14:22.760 many hopeless cases. But they believe and they want to 0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:25.720 do the right thing. But there's a lot of public 0:14:25.800 --> 0:14:27.720 defenders who are out there and you can't even believe 0:14:27.760 --> 0:14:29.840 they got out of law school or pass the bar. 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:31.880 I don't even understand. And you're and you got one 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:34.840 of those guys. You hit the reverse lottery on that one. 0:14:35.080 --> 0:14:38.280 I mean, they say this before I even started trial. 0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:40.680 You know, I was young, but I knew something was wrong. 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:44.080 You know, I actually accused him of conspiring with the 0:14:44.080 --> 0:14:46.360 prosecutor at the time, And this is on the trial record, 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:49.800 you know. And the judge told me too that I 0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:51.800 should be happy to have such a lawyer and that 0:14:52.200 --> 0:14:56.040 we were proceeding forward with the trial. So it's not 0:14:56.240 --> 0:14:59.600 like twenty seven years later I'm stating that you know 0:15:00.640 --> 0:15:03.720 this happened to me. No, this is something that I 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:06.160 addressed the court from day one. 0:15:06.800 --> 0:15:10.920 So you as a young man with no experience in 0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:13.880 criminal justice, and no, you didn't have a higher education 0:15:14.200 --> 0:15:17.560 like that year. But and from being inside jail, you 0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:23.160 were still able to ascertain or to surmise that this 0:15:23.240 --> 0:15:25.560 guy was not your friend and was not going to 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:29.280 do you any good, right, because and that's what a 0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:31.240 devastating thing that is too, because here you have the 0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:33.480 one person who's supposed to be your protector and you 0:15:33.480 --> 0:15:34.400 can't even trust them. 0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:39.600 No, well, it's called common sense, you know. Common sense 0:15:39.720 --> 0:15:44.760 is could be worth all the money in the world, 0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:46.640 you know, if you use it at the right moment, 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:51.320 you know. So he hadn't came to visit me but 0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:54.320 one time for maybe fifteen to twenty minutes. During the 0:15:54.360 --> 0:15:58.680 whole entire time that he represented me, he hadn't interviewed 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:02.720 ninety percent of the witnesses in the case. So I 0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:07.120 knew something was wrong there, you know, and I told 0:16:07.120 --> 0:16:10.280 the judge. You know, the judge disregarded it, you know, 0:16:10.360 --> 0:16:13.040 not only that he you know, he promised at In fact, 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:16.160 he didn't even give an opening argument. And what lawyer 0:16:16.200 --> 0:16:17.480 doesn't give an opening argument? 0:16:17.800 --> 0:16:20.360 So yeah, I'm trying to envision that too. So first 0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:23.760 of all, let's just get back to fifteen to twenty 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:26.040 minutes in the course of ten months, and your life 0:16:26.080 --> 0:16:28.160 is at stake, and that's all the time he's got 0:16:28.160 --> 0:16:29.920 for you. Now, I know he's busy, he's got a 0:16:29.960 --> 0:16:32.760 lot of lower cases whatever, But have that many murder cases, right, 0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:35.880 and I'm sure a lot of the cases were more 0:16:35.920 --> 0:16:38.720 minor in terms of the you know, charges, and you 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:41.960 would hope that somebody that came would prioritize a situation 0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:44.040 like yours. That's the most serious case that there is. 0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:49.760 But okay, short of a death penalty case. But okay, so. 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:51.920 Let me just say this, Jason. You know, and all 0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:55.800 professions you have bad people. You know, you have good doctors, 0:16:55.800 --> 0:16:58.200 you have bad doctors. You know, have good lawyers and 0:16:58.240 --> 0:17:00.920 bad lawyers. Good judge is a bad Joe. And if 0:17:00.920 --> 0:17:03.040 you get if you end up with one of those 0:17:03.080 --> 0:17:05.919 types of people, then it could be disastrous. It can 0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:08.520 mean your life. And this is just the reality here. 0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:13.560 That's I mean, that's well said, but this is I mean, 0:17:13.560 --> 0:17:17.600 it's hard to think for me that there's the same 0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:21.880 percentage of doctors. Right, And there's that big hit podcast 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:24.320 out now, doctor Death, about a doctor who is deliberately 0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:28.160 killing his patients right, right, but or maiming them or whatever. 0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:31.880 Is horrible, But I got to believe those are outliers, 0:17:32.000 --> 0:17:35.159 and most doctors are doing the right thing, yeah, and 0:17:35.200 --> 0:17:37.840 actually probably helping their patients, you know, more than they're 0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:40.680 hurting them. And most lawyers are too. But there's there's 0:17:40.720 --> 0:17:42.919 too many of these stories about these public defenders who 0:17:42.960 --> 0:17:45.520 are just not interested or they're asleep, or they're high, 0:17:45.680 --> 0:17:48.240 or they're whatever, and then they get this barred, but 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:49.959 it's too late and it doesn't matter. I think there 0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:55.960 should be an automatic mechanism that if a defense lawyer 0:17:56.000 --> 0:17:59.080 gets this barred, there are cases in which they in 0:17:59.119 --> 0:18:01.720 which they failed so miserably, should get a fresh luck. 0:18:01.800 --> 0:18:04.680 But that's another story for another day. That's not gonna 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:08.960 happen anytime soon, however, So your attorney, I don't even 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:10.040 know if you want to say his name, but it's 0:18:10.119 --> 0:18:15.040 up to you. But he didn't even deliver an opening statement. 0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:18.280 Didn't deliver an opening statement, you know. But he promised 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:22.639 the jury during jury selection that he would call witnesses 0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:25.680 that would clear me. He says, I'm gonna call witnesses 0:18:25.720 --> 0:18:27.800 that's going to tell you that Valentino Dixon didn't do 0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:31.720 this shooting. The problem is is that not only did 0:18:31.720 --> 0:18:34.920 he not give opening he didn't call any witnesses, okay, 0:18:35.200 --> 0:18:39.280 And he asked the judge for advice on what he 0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:42.600 should tell the jury doing his closing summation because they 0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:46.400 excuse the jury. So the judge, he asked. The judge said, 0:18:46.400 --> 0:18:48.600 your honor, you know I did promise the jury doing 0:18:48.680 --> 0:18:51.800 jury selection that I would call witnesses that would clear Valentino. 0:18:51.880 --> 0:18:54.600 I didn't call any. What should I do? What should 0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:58.879 I tell the jury during my closing summation? On the record, 0:18:58.920 --> 0:19:00.600 the judge says, I don't know what you should do. 0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:03.160 That's not my responsibility. I can't help you on that. 0:19:03.920 --> 0:19:06.080 The same judge told me I received a fair trial 0:19:06.119 --> 0:19:09.080 when we filed emotions some years later to get my 0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:10.200 conviction overturned. 0:19:10.800 --> 0:19:14.080 Okay. So just so we're clear, no opening statement, no witnesses. 0:19:14.119 --> 0:19:17.120 No, it's not one. That one. And not only that, 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:21.000 he didn't introduce one exhibit during the trial. So he 0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:24.000 didn't introduce not one exhibit during the trial. And there 0:19:24.040 --> 0:19:27.040 was plenty of statements that he could have used to 0:19:27.080 --> 0:19:29.720 impeach the prosecuted witnesses because it was clear that they 0:19:29.720 --> 0:19:32.280 were lying, that they were fabricating the story that they 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:34.159 gave on the stand, and he could have used their 0:19:34.160 --> 0:19:37.600 prior statements, the statements that where they said they didn't 0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:39.680 know who the shooter was then came the trial and 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:41.560 said that I was a shooter. He didn't used those 0:19:41.920 --> 0:19:46.240 so during deliberations, the jury couldn't even see those previous 0:19:46.280 --> 0:19:50.360 statements because the lewer never put not one single exhibit 0:19:50.480 --> 0:19:51.520 or statement into evidence. 0:19:51.920 --> 0:19:53.080 I hate to say it, but if I was on 0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:54.600 the jury, I probably would have convicted you two. 0:19:54.720 --> 0:19:59.800 Well, no, listen to this. Years later, what I found 0:19:59.840 --> 0:20:03.439 out through the Buffalo News paper they wouldn't interview the 0:20:03.520 --> 0:20:07.320 jury foreman. Ten years later and they says, well, we're 0:20:07.320 --> 0:20:09.760 looking into this case, you know, can you tell me 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:14.480 what happened? The jury foreman says that, and I have 0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:19.600 the statement he says that after I was convicted, he 0:20:19.680 --> 0:20:22.040 went to the judge's chambers and asked the judge could 0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:24.520 he speak with them. The judge allowed him to come in. 0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:26.240 He says, Jre, honor, I don't feel right here or 0:20:26.280 --> 0:20:29.720 something's not right here. Why didn't the lawyer call the 0:20:29.760 --> 0:20:33.560 witnesses that he promised. The judge tells the jury foreman 0:20:33.960 --> 0:20:36.360 to go home, sleep well, don't worry about it. 0:20:38.040 --> 0:20:41.040 Wow, go home, sleep well, don't worry about it. And now, 0:20:41.080 --> 0:20:43.680 by the way, the jury foreman was a little late too, 0:20:43.760 --> 0:20:46.480 write I mean you know, I mean I respect him. 0:20:46.680 --> 0:20:50.919 Ten years later, ten years after Yeah, but the oh. 0:20:50.760 --> 0:20:52.440 Wait, it was ten years after they went to see 0:20:52.480 --> 0:20:52.959 the judge. 0:20:53.080 --> 0:20:55.960 No, he went to see the judge right after the verdict. 0:20:56.040 --> 0:20:58.199 But we didn't find out until ten years later that 0:20:58.280 --> 0:21:00.320 this happened because nobody reveals this. 0:21:00.440 --> 0:21:02.879 But also, he was late, That's what I'm saying. He 0:21:02.920 --> 0:21:04.920 had a chance to actually do something in the jury 0:21:05.000 --> 0:21:07.160 room that would have actually been meaningful as opposed to 0:21:07.320 --> 0:21:09.560 doing as opposed to doing what was convenient. 0:21:09.720 --> 0:21:11.919 Well, no, listen to this. The first vote was a 0:21:12.040 --> 0:21:16.600 ninety three not guilty. Wow. He says that the sheriff 0:21:16.680 --> 0:21:18.960 deputy knocked on the door and says, hey, you guys 0:21:18.960 --> 0:21:20.960 got to come back with a verdict within thirty minutes 0:21:21.119 --> 0:21:23.919 or we're going to hold you or whatever. And he 0:21:23.960 --> 0:21:26.600 says a particular woman. He kept saying that he just 0:21:26.600 --> 0:21:28.560 got to find this guy guilty. I want to go home, 0:21:29.000 --> 0:21:31.640 And so everybody swayed her vote, and this is how 0:21:31.640 --> 0:21:34.360 they find the finding me guilty. 0:21:35.080 --> 0:21:37.520 That's that's really crazy though, that the three were able 0:21:37.520 --> 0:21:38.240 to convince them. 0:21:38.520 --> 0:21:40.560 Ninety three ninety three not guilty. 0:21:40.640 --> 0:21:42.399 This was the first vote. 0:21:43.119 --> 0:21:45.440 Yeah, without the lawyer calling any witnesses. 0:21:45.280 --> 0:21:48.280 Or anything, right and anything. And what about the videotape 0:21:48.320 --> 0:21:50.040 of did you were you aware that there was a video. 0:21:50.119 --> 0:21:52.920 Of course, of course I was aware that we had 0:21:52.920 --> 0:21:55.920 the videotape. The lawyer never used that trial, He never 0:21:56.040 --> 0:21:58.600 the jury never even knew another person confessed in his crime. 0:21:58.760 --> 0:21:59.880 They kept that a freakway from. 0:21:59.760 --> 0:22:03.640 The Okay, I'm not even right, I can't. 0:22:03.480 --> 0:22:07.080 Even jury never knew that La mor scut confessed. We 0:22:07.119 --> 0:22:09.640 had the videotape. The lawyer didn't use it. He didn't 0:22:09.680 --> 0:22:11.879 even put it before the jury. He didn't bring it 0:22:11.920 --> 0:22:13.240 to your attention at all. 0:22:13.520 --> 0:22:16.560 Did you say to him at the time. Where's the video? Why? 0:22:17.240 --> 0:22:19.920 Of course, was when the judge told me to sit. 0:22:19.760 --> 0:22:22.240 Down, And what did he say to you, lawyer? 0:22:22.960 --> 0:22:24.879 He said that we didn't need to present this stuff 0:22:24.880 --> 0:22:28.040 because they didn't have a case against us. I mean, 0:22:28.080 --> 0:22:29.639 he said they didn't have a strong enough case. So 0:22:29.680 --> 0:22:31.679 why we don't need to call in these witnesses? They 0:22:31.680 --> 0:22:32.600 didn't have a case here? 0:22:32.720 --> 0:22:34.639 But what is that st doesn't explain the video? The 0:22:34.680 --> 0:22:37.840 videotape I watched it an. 0:22:38.200 --> 0:22:39.919 That would have made all the difference in the world. 0:22:40.240 --> 0:22:42.240 If the jury would have knew that somebody else confessed 0:22:43.200 --> 0:22:44.720 that would I would have walked out of there. 0:22:45.080 --> 0:22:47.600 But so did you sit there and say to him, look, 0:22:47.840 --> 0:22:48.760 just play the video. 0:22:49.160 --> 0:22:51.960 I went there and I told him. I asked him, 0:22:52.000 --> 0:22:53.960 was he working with the prosecutor? You know? I was 0:22:54.000 --> 0:22:56.600 so angry and there was nothing I could do. I 0:22:56.640 --> 0:22:57.440 was powerless. 0:22:58.119 --> 0:22:58.760 You couldn't get the. 0:23:00.880 --> 0:23:02.920 Idea, couldn't The judge told me, no, this is all 0:23:02.960 --> 0:23:05.480 on the trial record. It's right there before my trial 0:23:05.520 --> 0:23:08.960 even start. Then he turns around and proves me right. 0:23:09.320 --> 0:23:12.199 You know, that's it that he was you know, up 0:23:12.240 --> 0:23:14.800 to no good. I knew something was wrong, you know, 0:23:15.119 --> 0:23:17.720 and he actually proved me right. He didn't call it 0:23:17.760 --> 0:23:21.359 any wits that didn't present the confession. Jury never knew LAMR. 0:23:21.440 --> 0:23:22.160 Scott confessed. 0:23:24.240 --> 0:23:27.120 I mean, this is so crazy. On so many it's criminal. 0:23:27.840 --> 0:23:28.440 It's criminal. 0:23:28.840 --> 0:23:31.399 And then and then Lamar Scott goes out and kills 0:23:31.400 --> 0:23:34.960 somebody else and actually says again on the video listen, 0:23:34.960 --> 0:23:36.680 that guy never would have had to die it got 0:23:36.800 --> 0:23:40.439 in the first place. I mean, yeah, that's not too 0:23:40.440 --> 0:23:43.000 many cases like this where somebody, the actual killer comes 0:23:43.000 --> 0:23:45.919 clean so early. Sometimes years and years later, they have 0:23:46.000 --> 0:23:48.320 a religious awakening or a spiritual or whatever they do. 0:23:48.480 --> 0:23:50.400 They tell somebody, you know, just by acting. 0:23:50.480 --> 0:23:53.360 Well, his reason, his reasoning was, is that the deceased 0:23:53.400 --> 0:23:56.400 had a weapon. Okay, the deceased shot a guy named 0:23:56.440 --> 0:24:00.639 Mario Jarmon the more ran to his defense, Okay, and 0:24:00.680 --> 0:24:02.760 this is what he told them that you know, I 0:24:02.800 --> 0:24:04.639 lost control of the gun, but it was self defense. 0:24:04.680 --> 0:24:07.199 I was running to my friend's defense, you know, like 0:24:07.200 --> 0:24:09.320 it's this, you know, this is this is the whole 0:24:09.400 --> 0:24:11.960 level of madness. But I've lived through it, you know, 0:24:12.000 --> 0:24:16.120 I've survived the madness. And here we are today, so and. 0:24:16.160 --> 0:24:21.760 Yeah, and amen to that. So meanwhile, the jury goes out. 0:24:21.800 --> 0:24:22.719 How long did they deliberate? 0:24:23.080 --> 0:24:26.640 I believe about nine or ten hours. 0:24:25.640 --> 0:24:27.880 And then they come back in. Did you have any 0:24:27.880 --> 0:24:28.359 hope did you? 0:24:29.359 --> 0:24:31.840 Well, yeah, I still had hope that I would be acquitted, 0:24:31.880 --> 0:24:34.959 of course, you know, and they read divertedt you know, 0:24:35.080 --> 0:24:38.040 I blanked out. Basically, the family, the whole court was 0:24:38.040 --> 0:24:41.160 there for me, and they started screaming. You know, it's 0:24:41.280 --> 0:24:42.439 just a sad scene. 0:24:43.359 --> 0:24:45.199 Yeah. I heard you describe it and say that you 0:24:45.240 --> 0:24:46.320 felt like you were in space. 0:24:46.640 --> 0:24:49.800 Yeah. Just at that point, my mind was just not 0:24:49.880 --> 0:24:50.800 even here on earth. 0:24:52.359 --> 0:24:55.000 No, because basically, they gave you a life sentence a 0:24:55.040 --> 0:24:57.080 fro thirty nine years when you're twenty one years old, 0:24:57.640 --> 0:24:59.159 you know, I mean, they might as well give you 0:24:59.200 --> 0:25:02.080 a life sentence point. So okay, So then you go 0:25:02.160 --> 0:25:06.000 off and you're taking the prison and you're filing these 0:25:06.000 --> 0:25:07.320 appeals and everything else. 0:25:07.400 --> 0:25:10.280 Everything's denied over and over. Keep fighting, know. I started 0:25:10.280 --> 0:25:13.200 working on my own case, did a lot of research, 0:25:13.680 --> 0:25:15.960 learned how to write, you know, how to put my 0:25:16.040 --> 0:25:19.680 facts together, which was very helpful to even the Georgetown 0:25:19.720 --> 0:25:21.920 students when they got on board. You know that I 0:25:21.960 --> 0:25:24.520 had already had all the facts laid out the exhibits 0:25:24.520 --> 0:25:27.239 to support the facts. So it was, you know, it 0:25:27.280 --> 0:25:28.800 was the process was easier. 0:25:28.440 --> 0:25:31.040 For them, and you were in Attica, right. 0:25:31.119 --> 0:25:34.000 Yeah, twenty four years, but the twenty seven years, twenty 0:25:34.000 --> 0:25:35.080 four years was spending Attica. 0:25:36.000 --> 0:25:39.040 Can you describe that because Attica is of course a 0:25:39.119 --> 0:25:41.720 notorious prison where they had that one of the most 0:25:43.200 --> 0:25:48.000 devastating incidents of riot with dozens and dozens people killed, 0:25:48.000 --> 0:25:51.160 and that goes back to the seventies, I think. 0:25:51.040 --> 0:25:52.080 Yeah, but seventy one. 0:25:52.560 --> 0:25:55.679 Can you describe for the audience what that was like? 0:25:56.000 --> 0:25:58.760 Well, when you know, when I got there, the treatment 0:25:59.040 --> 0:26:01.880 was horrible. Stay that way, you know, and they never 0:26:01.960 --> 0:26:05.320 did fire even after the riots. They never did change 0:26:05.320 --> 0:26:08.800 the mentality or the attitude of the officers. And to 0:26:08.920 --> 0:26:11.280 this day, I spoke to some guys yesterday that's in there. 0:26:11.359 --> 0:26:13.720 They called me on the phone. You know. Every day 0:26:13.760 --> 0:26:17.320 it's harassment, you know, it's mistreatment going on there every day, 0:26:17.359 --> 0:26:20.520 and nobody would do anything about it. They're not held accountable, 0:26:20.760 --> 0:26:23.480 you know, And so I feel for them. 0:26:23.960 --> 0:26:25.880 And were you subjected to that same treatment. 0:26:26.160 --> 0:26:29.840 I had some problems, you know, but I carried myself 0:26:29.840 --> 0:26:32.840 a certain way where because I knew my situation that 0:26:32.920 --> 0:26:35.000 I had to be really really smart. I was there, 0:26:35.040 --> 0:26:35.800 but I wasn't there. 0:26:35.880 --> 0:26:39.720 Put it that way, and that leads to a really 0:26:39.760 --> 0:26:44.800 interesting and fascinating part of your story, which is that 0:26:45.520 --> 0:26:51.480 you found some sort of escape from this artwork to 0:26:51.840 --> 0:26:56.560 art right, and and it's it's quite remarkable because we'll 0:26:56.640 --> 0:26:58.600 tell the story. I mean, you began drawing. 0:26:58.880 --> 0:27:01.639 I started drawing when I was about three years old. Okay. 0:27:01.840 --> 0:27:03.919 I went to perform in arts high school for drawing, 0:27:04.960 --> 0:27:10.960 and when I was arrested, I didn't draw for seven 0:27:11.040 --> 0:27:14.080 years straight. I didn't touch a pencil or a paintbrush 0:27:14.160 --> 0:27:17.359 or anything. I didn't have. My spirit was it was dead, 0:27:18.119 --> 0:27:21.600 you know. I didn't have to drive or any of 0:27:21.640 --> 0:27:25.720 that stuff. You know. Around the seventh year of being 0:27:25.760 --> 0:27:29.560 in prison, I have an uncle who named Ronnie Bryant. 0:27:29.800 --> 0:27:32.359 He sent me some our supplies. He begged me to 0:27:32.400 --> 0:27:36.000 start drawing again, you know, and even then I kept saying, no, 0:27:36.800 --> 0:27:40.239 I'm not interested. But eventually he won. He you know, 0:27:40.640 --> 0:27:44.440 he won that battle and I started drawing. And it 0:27:44.560 --> 0:27:49.159 was nineteen ninety seven, and so for the for the 0:27:49.200 --> 0:27:52.280 next twenty years, I would draw every day, up to 0:27:52.320 --> 0:27:56.040 ten hours a day, you know, and none stop. I 0:27:56.080 --> 0:27:58.600 didn't take off three hundred and sixty five days a year, 0:27:59.840 --> 0:28:05.359 and it invigorated my spirit, you know, it gave me hope. 0:28:06.080 --> 0:28:09.520 And then when a golf digest came along, you know, 0:28:09.640 --> 0:28:13.199 through the warden, the superintendent of Attica. You know, I 0:28:13.240 --> 0:28:16.719 was known as the artist, and he came by and 0:28:16.760 --> 0:28:18.840 he asked me, would I draw his favorite golf course. 0:28:19.320 --> 0:28:21.919 I never golf before. You know where I'm from. You know, 0:28:21.960 --> 0:28:26.199 we don't golf, you know what I'm saying. So I 0:28:26.240 --> 0:28:28.240 said sure, short of bringing in, I drew the golf 0:28:28.720 --> 0:28:31.919 you know, I think it was a twelfth hole of Augusta, 0:28:32.119 --> 0:28:36.480 and he loved it. My neighbor, a guy named Adam Roberts. 0:28:36.920 --> 0:28:38.720 He says, hey, you need to draw some more golf 0:28:38.760 --> 0:28:41.480 course scenes. I said, Adam, I'm never going to golf. 0:28:41.920 --> 0:28:45.240 I've never golfed and I don't know anything about the game. 0:28:46.440 --> 0:28:51.600 He went and brought me some old golf died just magazines. 0:28:52.000 --> 0:28:54.400 So I started going through him. I started, you know, 0:28:54.440 --> 0:28:57.440 looking at the landscaping of everything. Basically, if you take 0:28:58.240 --> 0:29:01.920 the poll out, you know, all golf courses is just 0:29:01.960 --> 0:29:05.280 a beautiful landscape, you know. So I said, you know, 0:29:05.280 --> 0:29:07.120 what Let me give it a try. You know. I 0:29:07.120 --> 0:29:10.680 started drawing golf courses every day for the next six 0:29:10.760 --> 0:29:12.440 or seven months, and then I took a couple of 0:29:12.520 --> 0:29:14.560 them and I sent them to the Golf Dieges magazine 0:29:14.600 --> 0:29:19.680 with a letter, and that started everything going on that level. 0:29:19.880 --> 0:29:22.400 You know, the writer Max Aller decided that he wanted 0:29:22.440 --> 0:29:24.520 to come visit me, and then he did a three 0:29:24.560 --> 0:29:27.479 page article in July twenty twelve. 0:29:35.960 --> 0:29:38.080 The whole thing is so remarkable. I mean then it's 0:29:38.080 --> 0:29:44.240 interesting too, because you're drawing three dimensional yeah, pictures of 0:29:44.240 --> 0:29:47.760 courses that you were seeing in two dimensions right, right, right, 0:29:47.920 --> 0:29:50.080 I mean because you could only see it in the magazine, right, 0:29:50.080 --> 0:29:53.840 So you're taking life, a photograph of the real life, 0:29:53.840 --> 0:29:56.200 and turning it back into a picture. It's like, it's 0:29:56.240 --> 0:29:57.400 a very interesting process. 0:29:57.480 --> 0:29:59.400 Let me say to Jason, after a while, I didn't 0:29:59.400 --> 0:30:01.440 even need to pick. I can just make up a 0:30:01.480 --> 0:30:03.680 course on my own. I didn't need the pictures anymore. 0:30:04.240 --> 0:30:07.000 And and we know now that it's it's sort of 0:30:07.400 --> 0:30:09.800 incredible that you're heading out to the West Coast with. 0:30:09.760 --> 0:30:15.600 Tomorrow tomorrow the Pebble Beach, go to beach. 0:30:16.920 --> 0:30:18.800 No, no, no, that's really now that I'm talking about 0:30:18.840 --> 0:30:21.400 life imitating art. That's life imitating art, for sure. 0:30:21.240 --> 0:30:21.680 It is. 0:30:22.440 --> 0:30:25.520 But but so back to the story. So because this 0:30:25.720 --> 0:30:27.520 that we'll get to the ending part at the end, 0:30:27.680 --> 0:30:31.760 which is just an incredible, incredible story to be able 0:30:31.760 --> 0:30:36.680 to tell. But so now about six years ago, golf 0:30:36.720 --> 0:30:41.680 Diye just runs the story. But the next well, the really, 0:30:41.720 --> 0:30:43.880 the the real, the real turning point or tipping point 0:30:43.880 --> 0:30:47.240 in your whole situation came with a group of students 0:30:47.280 --> 0:30:51.880 of all Things or Georgetown, right. And it's such a 0:30:51.880 --> 0:30:54.640 personal thing to me because I've been to Georgetown and 0:30:54.680 --> 0:30:59.360 spoken to that class actually Vice News Peace on on 0:30:59.720 --> 0:31:02.480 the Wrong fu Conection podcasts and they filled me talking 0:31:02.520 --> 0:31:05.200 to the kids at Georgetown, and of course Marty Tankleff, 0:31:05.600 --> 0:31:07.280 who was one of the professors, there's a dear friend 0:31:07.320 --> 0:31:11.320 of mine, his Xgnery, And I'm a sponsor of the class. 0:31:11.880 --> 0:31:16.040 So there's so many interesting connections here that are you know, 0:31:16.080 --> 0:31:19.360 it's very serendipitous. But how did that happen? How did 0:31:19.440 --> 0:31:21.880 you first find out that these Georgetown kids were when 0:31:21.880 --> 0:31:23.080 you must have I mean, it must have thought, but 0:31:23.160 --> 0:31:25.000 these are kids, I mean, how can they help me know? 0:31:25.120 --> 0:31:26.360 There are undergraduate students. 0:31:26.760 --> 0:31:30.960 Well, Marty worked at a firm as a peer illegal 0:31:31.320 --> 0:31:32.840 when he got out. I'm not going to say the 0:31:32.920 --> 0:31:35.760 name of the firm, but at some point he left 0:31:35.840 --> 0:31:38.959 the firm and he had remembered me because he had 0:31:39.000 --> 0:31:40.120 read a lot of my files. 0:31:40.200 --> 0:31:41.760 So you were in prison with Marty. 0:31:42.160 --> 0:31:46.320 No, oh, no, Marty was. When Marty got out, he 0:31:46.440 --> 0:31:48.280 worked as a peer legal at a firm in New 0:31:48.360 --> 0:31:52.360 York City who had took my case. They took my case. Yeah, 0:31:52.400 --> 0:31:55.200 they took my case, but they didn't follow anything. They 0:31:55.280 --> 0:31:57.280 pretty much sat on the case when they took it. 0:31:58.440 --> 0:32:01.920 And after Marty left that firm, he always, you know, 0:32:02.120 --> 0:32:03.840 just kept me in the back of his head because 0:32:03.840 --> 0:32:07.040 he had read my file. And even though the lures 0:32:07.080 --> 0:32:11.320 at that firm hadn't moved to foul anything, Marty remembered me. 0:32:11.600 --> 0:32:14.640 And once he went to Georgetown, I believe he presented 0:32:14.680 --> 0:32:16.520 my story to you and the students. 0:32:17.640 --> 0:32:20.440 Right when I was there, they were talking about you, 0:32:20.560 --> 0:32:23.800 for sure, and it was I mean, I got the 0:32:23.920 --> 0:32:27.000 sense talking to those kids like there's something special going 0:32:27.040 --> 0:32:30.880 on here. These kids are so smart, right, so driven. 0:32:31.000 --> 0:32:33.400 I hope that every college has a class like that, 0:32:33.600 --> 0:32:36.239 because well, I mean, look, at the difference that they 0:32:36.320 --> 0:32:41.200 made You're here. Yeah, so Marty brought it to the kids. 0:32:42.160 --> 0:32:43.880 And then when did you find out that they were 0:32:43.920 --> 0:32:47.320 actually going to create this documentary footage and do this 0:32:47.400 --> 0:32:49.160 whole reinvestigation of your case? O. 0:32:49.440 --> 0:32:52.800 Marty called my mother. Okay, he got her number and 0:32:52.880 --> 0:32:55.280 called her up and he gave her the news. You know, 0:32:55.400 --> 0:32:58.400 when I called home, she told me about it. And 0:32:58.600 --> 0:33:03.000 we had just filed for before that and was denied 0:33:03.040 --> 0:33:07.840 the clemency. So I was really down in a couple 0:33:07.920 --> 0:33:10.080 weeks later, and this is when Marty out of nowhere 0:33:10.320 --> 0:33:12.400 just called my mom up and said, hey, you know, 0:33:12.480 --> 0:33:15.720 we've chosen his case, you know, as a class project, 0:33:15.760 --> 0:33:17.760 and we're going to do a documentary. So that was 0:33:17.960 --> 0:33:20.840 like news that I needed to hear, you know, it was. 0:33:22.080 --> 0:33:23.920 It was the best news I had received, and I 0:33:24.000 --> 0:33:26.320 believe in my whole time since I've been in prison. 0:33:27.400 --> 0:33:30.440 Wow, So you knew you had a feeling, Yeah. 0:33:30.320 --> 0:33:33.400 Because let me just say this, I've had nine different 0:33:33.480 --> 0:33:36.800 lawyers over the twenty year twenty seven year span, nine 0:33:36.840 --> 0:33:40.840 different lawyers. None of them could even get me a 0:33:40.920 --> 0:33:44.200 hearing with all of this evidence that wasn't presented before 0:33:44.200 --> 0:33:46.000 the jury. None of them could even give me a hearing. 0:33:46.600 --> 0:33:50.120 So when Georgetown got involved, you know, it was like 0:33:50.520 --> 0:33:53.080 this is different here. You know, this is different than 0:33:53.200 --> 0:33:56.080 just hiring a lawyer. You have a whole university that's 0:33:56.080 --> 0:33:59.920 supporting this. And whenever I would mention to tell anybody, 0:34:00.080 --> 0:34:02.680 share with anybody that Georgetown was involved, you know you 0:34:02.760 --> 0:34:05.880 could just the response was, oh, now you're going to 0:34:05.920 --> 0:34:09.120 go home now that my family felt the same way. 0:34:09.200 --> 0:34:11.279 I felt the same way. Now it's going to happen. 0:34:12.360 --> 0:34:17.000 And so the kids went and really reinvestigated, right, and 0:34:17.440 --> 0:34:21.120 they found because the difficulty with your case was when 0:34:21.280 --> 0:34:23.040 I'm sure people listening to go, wait a minute. But 0:34:23.080 --> 0:34:25.280 the guy confessed to confess over and over confess. 0:34:25.480 --> 0:34:26.920 He confessed seven times. 0:34:27.239 --> 0:34:28.000 Seven times. 0:34:28.200 --> 0:34:31.840 We have seven different confessions because he wanted to do 0:34:31.920 --> 0:34:34.800 the right thing so bad, and you know, he was 0:34:34.920 --> 0:34:37.759 actually an attica at one time. Did you ever see 0:34:37.760 --> 0:34:39.759 anyone put us in the same yard. We were in 0:34:39.800 --> 0:34:43.000 the same yard. Can you imagine that? No, yeah, the 0:34:43.080 --> 0:34:44.800 same yard. You know, I don't know if it was 0:34:44.840 --> 0:34:48.920 by design, but it was that was crazy within hisself, 0:34:49.280 --> 0:34:51.839 you know, but it worked itself out. 0:34:52.000 --> 0:34:52.920 Did you ever speak to him? 0:34:52.960 --> 0:34:53.080 Oh? 0:34:53.160 --> 0:34:55.799 Yeah, Well, he well, he approached me and I didn't 0:34:55.800 --> 0:34:57.920 want to talk to him at all. I told him 0:34:57.960 --> 0:35:00.680 to get away from me, you know, and I kind of, 0:35:00.960 --> 0:35:03.680 you know, God sawted my heart up. I don't know, 0:35:03.800 --> 0:35:06.480 maybe a couple months later, I'm always seeing this guy 0:35:06.600 --> 0:35:08.080 walk the yard, you know, I said, you know what, 0:35:08.800 --> 0:35:10.239 you know, he tried to do the right thing, but 0:35:10.320 --> 0:35:12.600 the police didn't want to hear it. So it's really 0:35:12.719 --> 0:35:16.040 not his fault when you look at it. And so 0:35:16.800 --> 0:35:20.080 we became pretty cordial, interesting. 0:35:21.320 --> 0:35:22.960 Hard, right. 0:35:23.320 --> 0:35:25.600 You know, I'm not I'm the type of person that 0:35:25.800 --> 0:35:30.360 you know, I'm very forgiving and I don't harbor stuff. 0:35:30.719 --> 0:35:35.160 I've never been able, you know to I've never been 0:35:35.239 --> 0:35:38.440 the type of person that harbor stuff, you know, bitter, angrier, 0:35:38.640 --> 0:35:43.000 you know, I forgive real fast, you know. But that's 0:35:43.080 --> 0:35:43.560 just who I am. 0:35:44.920 --> 0:35:49.920 So the Georgetown kids get involved, and the difficulty was, 0:35:50.000 --> 0:35:52.880 among other things, is that they couldn't use the confession 0:35:52.960 --> 0:35:55.040 because it wasn't new evidence, right, so they had to 0:35:55.120 --> 0:35:57.320 find new evidence in order to get your case reopened. 0:35:57.600 --> 0:35:59.480 But they did, yes talk about that. 0:35:59.800 --> 0:36:02.960 Well, the new evidence came in, well, when they took 0:36:03.360 --> 0:36:07.839 my car and my clothing, they tested it. But they 0:36:07.920 --> 0:36:11.040 never revealed the results of the testing of the clothing. 0:36:12.040 --> 0:36:15.160 So when Georgetown was asking the DA, like, you know 0:36:16.920 --> 0:36:21.759 what about the testing of his clothing, the DA says, oh, yeah, 0:36:22.040 --> 0:36:24.760 everything was tested and they came back negative. Oh okay, 0:36:24.840 --> 0:36:28.640 we got a problem now because that sentencing or a trial, 0:36:28.719 --> 0:36:31.759 you never revealed that this happened. You never presented any 0:36:31.840 --> 0:36:36.799 document stating that these items came back negative. So that's 0:36:36.840 --> 0:36:42.360 a clear Brady violation, okay, And there's nowhere around it 0:36:42.480 --> 0:36:44.920 because all of this stuff appeared on the record and 0:36:45.040 --> 0:36:47.960 the videotape too, and the videotape also, Yeah, I saw that. 0:36:48.040 --> 0:36:49.879 Video and I was like, oh my god, these kids 0:36:49.920 --> 0:36:53.320 have really done it now. Yeah, right, these are kids, 0:36:53.480 --> 0:36:56.879 I mean, yeah, I can't emphasize that enough. But they're 0:36:57.000 --> 0:36:59.200 great kids. I mean, obviously they're smart kids. They're going 0:36:59.239 --> 0:37:02.040 to Georgetown. You know, there's one thing all Georgetown students 0:37:02.080 --> 0:37:05.000 have in common. They must have some serious mental faculties 0:37:05.080 --> 0:37:06.560 or they would be getting in there in the first place. 0:37:06.640 --> 0:37:09.239 But these kids are really driven, and I can't even 0:37:09.280 --> 0:37:11.319 imagine how good this must feel for them. I Mean, 0:37:11.360 --> 0:37:13.960 I saw them at the on the day that you 0:37:14.040 --> 0:37:17.560 were free and exonerated. And everything, and you know that's 0:37:17.600 --> 0:37:19.520 not an experience any of them will ever forget. I mean, 0:37:19.560 --> 0:37:22.080 I won't even forget it. So and I've been around 0:37:22.120 --> 0:37:25.600 this stuff for so long, so they get a whole 0:37:25.640 --> 0:37:27.440 When did you find out that they had gotten this? 0:37:28.200 --> 0:37:31.040 It's almost like a confession from the prosecutor on the radio. 0:37:30.920 --> 0:37:36.000 Right, That's exactly what it was. And so you know, 0:37:36.080 --> 0:37:38.920 I was in contact with them constantly, you know, I 0:37:39.000 --> 0:37:40.879 would speak to them on the phone maybe a couple 0:37:41.000 --> 0:37:43.480 times a week. So when they revealed it to me, 0:37:44.000 --> 0:37:46.200 you know, I knew that that was the door opener. 0:37:46.440 --> 0:37:48.680 I said, this is it right here, because it opened 0:37:48.680 --> 0:37:52.040 the door for all the evidence that they previously disregarded. 0:37:52.520 --> 0:37:55.000 Now you have to look at this evidence. It's and 0:37:55.120 --> 0:37:59.680 it's the totality right because of this. Yeah, that one 0:38:00.080 --> 0:38:01.320 violation to Brady violation. 0:38:02.000 --> 0:38:04.640 That's and then yeah, and there's no there's no equivocating. 0:38:04.719 --> 0:38:07.160 That's all right, I mean that was that was a quo. 0:38:07.440 --> 0:38:11.080 Not only that, you know, the DA claimed and not 0:38:11.280 --> 0:38:13.680 know about all of these witnesses, yet seven of them 0:38:13.719 --> 0:38:17.160 were on his this witness list before trial. You know, 0:38:17.400 --> 0:38:20.120 he says, like, what witnesses you're talking about? Well, those 0:38:20.320 --> 0:38:22.719 seven witnesses are on your witness list that cleared me 0:38:22.840 --> 0:38:25.240 this crime. They claimed not to know about any witnesses 0:38:25.280 --> 0:38:25.759 that cleared me. 0:38:26.360 --> 0:38:29.480 So you find out that the kids had gotten this right. 0:38:29.719 --> 0:38:33.040 It like smoke called the smoking gun. Bad play on 0:38:33.080 --> 0:38:36.040 words here, but whatever. But then and then and then 0:38:36.120 --> 0:38:37.920 how did things start? They must have started to move 0:38:37.960 --> 0:38:38.799 pretty quickly from now. 0:38:38.920 --> 0:38:41.560 Oh yeah, within a matter of months, you know, the 0:38:41.640 --> 0:38:46.080 motion was fouled. Uh that D eight said that they 0:38:46.080 --> 0:38:48.920 wouldn't contestant, you know, But even then, I, you know, 0:38:49.000 --> 0:38:52.680 I was like, I wasn't one hundred percent sure that 0:38:52.719 --> 0:38:54.320 they want to stick to their word. They said to 0:38:54.360 --> 0:38:57.080 follow the motion, we're not contestant. I still didn't trust 0:38:57.120 --> 0:39:00.000 the process, you know. And I didn't trust the process 0:39:00.200 --> 0:39:01.960 all the way up into the day that I got out, 0:39:02.320 --> 0:39:05.400 when I was walking into the courtroom, I didn't trust 0:39:05.440 --> 0:39:07.600 the process. I didn't know if they were going to 0:39:07.680 --> 0:39:09.279 do the right thing or not. You just don't know 0:39:09.440 --> 0:39:13.160 until it actually happens. So it happened. 0:39:14.440 --> 0:39:16.840 So let's talk about that, because let's go to We 0:39:17.000 --> 0:39:20.040 talked about the worst moment, but there were a lot 0:39:20.080 --> 0:39:22.280 of them, but the worst moment when you were actually convicted. 0:39:23.160 --> 0:39:26.760 So let's talk about the moment when this all finally 0:39:27.000 --> 0:39:27.640 came to an end. 0:39:29.600 --> 0:39:31.640 I had a lot of time to think that day 0:39:32.040 --> 0:39:34.640 because the prison guards would not release me. When the 0:39:34.719 --> 0:39:37.520 judge ordered me release, the prison guard said no, they 0:39:37.560 --> 0:39:39.279 wanted to take me back to the prison to be 0:39:39.400 --> 0:39:42.279 processed out. The judge says, no, he's going to be 0:39:42.360 --> 0:39:44.759 released from the courthouse, So it was a tug of 0:39:44.840 --> 0:39:46.600 wars there, and they had to get a fact from 0:39:46.640 --> 0:39:49.360 Aubury stating that it's okay to release him, and that 0:39:49.480 --> 0:39:51.840 took two hours. So I'm sitting in the room the 0:39:51.880 --> 0:39:54.239 whole time. My mind is just spinning, and I know 0:39:54.440 --> 0:39:57.480 all of my supporters and everybody's outside waiting for me. 0:39:58.239 --> 0:40:02.040 So when I walk out, and I've got to walk 0:40:02.120 --> 0:40:05.719 down these a lot of steps to get to everybody, 0:40:06.640 --> 0:40:08.719 and my legs were so weak, you know, I was 0:40:08.800 --> 0:40:10.719 taking one step at a time because I didn't want 0:40:10.760 --> 0:40:13.160 to fall down the steps, you know, you know, I 0:40:13.280 --> 0:40:15.319 was I almost felt like I wasn't gonna make it down, 0:40:16.000 --> 0:40:17.920 so I was just taking If you look at the video, 0:40:18.160 --> 0:40:20.440 because they have a video of it, you see me 0:40:20.560 --> 0:40:23.840 taking these tiny little steps because I'm aware, I'm conscious 0:40:23.880 --> 0:40:25.600 that you know what, you're gonna fall down these steps 0:40:25.600 --> 0:40:28.359 because your legs is not not your legs right now, 0:40:29.080 --> 0:40:29.759 you know what I'm saying. 0:40:31.000 --> 0:40:34.000 But I made it down there, But you left out 0:40:34.800 --> 0:40:37.400 what I really wanted to hear, which is that moment 0:40:37.520 --> 0:40:40.480 when the judge declared you, oh yeah, I mean, can 0:40:40.560 --> 0:40:43.960 you paint that picture? I know you can paint some pictures. 0:40:44.560 --> 0:40:50.280 Well, let me just say this. I always had faith, 0:40:50.640 --> 0:40:52.560 and I always had to hope that that day would come. 0:40:53.160 --> 0:40:53.320 You know. 0:40:53.520 --> 0:40:57.759 This is what kept me going is that I didn't know. 0:40:58.120 --> 0:40:59.680 I didn't know when, but I knew it was going 0:40:59.719 --> 0:41:02.040 to happen. I just didn't know when because I was 0:41:02.120 --> 0:41:04.359 never gonna give up. I was on the fight until 0:41:04.400 --> 0:41:08.440 my last breath. So when she declared that, it's like 0:41:08.560 --> 0:41:12.239 I had already lived it before. It's hard to I 0:41:12.280 --> 0:41:13.960 don't know if that makes any sense. It was like 0:41:14.000 --> 0:41:16.560 I had already lived it before in my mind, you know. 0:41:16.719 --> 0:41:19.080 And that's that's what kept me going in prison, is 0:41:19.120 --> 0:41:21.000 that ninety percent of the time I was never there. 0:41:21.080 --> 0:41:22.000 I was on the outside. 0:41:22.480 --> 0:41:22.640 You know. 0:41:22.680 --> 0:41:25.920 I would take myself to France, you know, or I'll 0:41:25.960 --> 0:41:28.120 go fishing, or I would cook a dinner or something 0:41:28.200 --> 0:41:30.440 like that. I was never really there in the prison, 0:41:30.880 --> 0:41:33.560 only maybe ten percent of the time when I had 0:41:33.600 --> 0:41:35.400 to be when there was something going on and I 0:41:35.480 --> 0:41:37.600 needed to know what was going on around me Other 0:41:37.680 --> 0:41:40.080 than that my mind. Whenever I would draw for those 0:41:40.120 --> 0:41:43.120 ten hours, I would put my headphones on, turn the 0:41:43.239 --> 0:41:46.120 music on, and I'm gone and just draw. 0:41:46.239 --> 0:41:49.480 But even still, what was the that that you're in 0:41:49.560 --> 0:41:51.520 the courtroom? I mean, this is the r This is 0:41:51.600 --> 0:41:54.560 actually the opposite of what happened before, right when everybody 0:41:54.640 --> 0:41:57.040 was screaming and crying and everything else, and you were 0:41:57.080 --> 0:42:00.359 in space and blah blah blah. Right, so now you're 0:42:00.520 --> 0:42:03.440 back right in the courtroom and the judge says. 0:42:03.560 --> 0:42:05.160 You know what, I'm gonna be honest with you. I was. 0:42:05.520 --> 0:42:09.759 I was in space then again a different type of space. 0:42:09.520 --> 0:42:16.080 Though, and I'm assuming pandemonium it did? 0:42:17.200 --> 0:42:17.560 It did? 0:42:17.840 --> 0:42:19.640 I mean, it's interesting because I've seen the video and 0:42:19.680 --> 0:42:21.560 anyone who wants to can go online and just google 0:42:21.560 --> 0:42:21.839 your game. 0:42:22.120 --> 0:42:26.320 But let me just say this also, Jason, you know, 0:42:26.800 --> 0:42:28.480 it was a happy day for me and the family 0:42:28.520 --> 0:42:31.880 and everything, but at the same time, I know I 0:42:32.040 --> 0:42:34.960 was leaving behind so many people that's gonna need my help. 0:42:35.320 --> 0:42:38.279 You know, that's gonna need my voice because they don't 0:42:38.320 --> 0:42:43.759 have the avenue, you know, or anybody to advocate for them. 0:42:44.160 --> 0:42:46.680 So at that moment, I was really thinking about them 0:42:46.800 --> 0:42:49.200 and what I needed to say to the media, you know, 0:42:49.320 --> 0:42:51.440 to get the balls rolling as far as is in 0:42:51.560 --> 0:42:55.279 regards to the heart sentencing laws in New York State. 0:42:56.280 --> 0:42:58.600 So it's a little bit bittersweet. 0:42:58.360 --> 0:43:00.520 Yeah, you know, because I knew that, you know. Okay, 0:43:01.280 --> 0:43:04.680 now here's a new chapter that's going to begin, you know, 0:43:04.800 --> 0:43:07.800 and it's not a you know, it's it's really not 0:43:07.920 --> 0:43:11.000 about me now, it's about trying to save other people, 0:43:11.800 --> 0:43:15.640 you know, from being wrongfully convicted or or receiving these 0:43:15.719 --> 0:43:19.160 hardt interesting laws you know that's in New York State. 0:43:20.040 --> 0:43:22.480 Yeah, I mean when we talked about that earlier, the 0:43:22.640 --> 0:43:24.360 fact that we are so out of step with the 0:43:24.400 --> 0:43:26.040 rest of the Western world in terms of the way 0:43:26.080 --> 0:43:28.040 we sentenced people, in terms of way we punish people. 0:43:28.560 --> 0:43:31.480 I mean, a great group including my friend Dan Slepion, 0:43:31.719 --> 0:43:34.680 just just toured the prisons in Norway and Germany. They 0:43:34.719 --> 0:43:40.360 have a total of eight solitary confinement so right in 0:43:40.400 --> 0:43:42.200 the whole country Germany, and they don't even use them. 0:43:42.280 --> 0:43:43.000 Right right, we have. 0:43:44.719 --> 0:43:46.759 I think it's eighty to one hundred thousand people in 0:43:46.840 --> 0:43:50.680 solitary solitary confinement. They have eight for the whole time. 0:43:50.719 --> 0:43:54.320 I know, guys that spent nine years in solitary confinement. 0:44:07.320 --> 0:44:10.719 Talk to me a little bit about family, because your 0:44:10.880 --> 0:44:15.359 daughter's here, an amazing, beautiful woman that she is. I've 0:44:15.440 --> 0:44:21.839 seen videos with some of your family members, your mom, right, 0:44:23.080 --> 0:44:27.120 How important was family to you during this whole situation. 0:44:26.760 --> 0:44:29.880 And what does it mean to family is everything? You know, 0:44:30.040 --> 0:44:32.480 without your support, I wouldn't be sitting here right now. 0:44:33.040 --> 0:44:35.040 You know, we kept each other strong. You know, Whenever 0:44:35.160 --> 0:44:37.440 they were down, I lifted them up. Whenever I was down, 0:44:37.480 --> 0:44:38.200 they lifted me up. 0:44:38.760 --> 0:44:38.880 You know. 0:44:39.080 --> 0:44:42.279 Now it's you know, you know, even getting out. You know, 0:44:42.440 --> 0:44:45.480 my grandmother, I've spent the last two weeks, you know, 0:44:46.080 --> 0:44:48.800 trying to get her house right. Her basement had flooded 0:44:48.840 --> 0:44:51.439 and stuff molded and everything. So me and a buddy 0:44:51.520 --> 0:44:55.120 mine's ripped out all the walls and resealed the basement 0:44:55.280 --> 0:44:58.520 up and you know, just fixed her. She's ninety years old, 0:44:59.440 --> 0:45:01.399 you know, you know, I got a new couch set 0:45:01.440 --> 0:45:04.279 and kitchen set and stuff like that, and painted all 0:45:04.320 --> 0:45:06.000 the outside of the house and all this stuff. 0:45:06.560 --> 0:45:06.719 You know. 0:45:06.880 --> 0:45:08.440 So she was my tire priority. 0:45:08.640 --> 0:45:08.800 You know. 0:45:09.000 --> 0:45:11.520 Now it's gonna be my mom and then my my kids. 0:45:11.600 --> 0:45:15.440 My grandkids have five generations. Yeah, yeah, you know, and 0:45:15.680 --> 0:45:17.400 it's a lot of Dixons for me. 0:45:17.520 --> 0:45:22.040 It's you know, it's not you know, when something like 0:45:22.120 --> 0:45:26.960 this happens, you realize how precious life is, you know, 0:45:27.200 --> 0:45:30.080 and that tomorrow's not promised. So you have to live 0:45:30.160 --> 0:45:33.040 every moment as if it's your last, you know. And 0:45:33.200 --> 0:45:35.480 even when you don't have money to travel, it's little 0:45:35.520 --> 0:45:38.440 things that you can do, like making breakfast, you know, 0:45:38.680 --> 0:45:41.200 and watch a movie, take a walk in the park, 0:45:41.320 --> 0:45:43.719 things that don't cost any money, you know. And I 0:45:43.800 --> 0:45:46.919 didn't understand this before, but I do now. So every 0:45:47.040 --> 0:45:49.920 day every chance that I get, we're gonna have a moment. 0:45:50.239 --> 0:45:52.640 And you have three girls, I have four girls. 0:45:52.840 --> 0:46:00.960 Wow, Yeah, I have four girls and names Jackie, Uh, Tina, Arianna, 0:46:01.280 --> 0:46:06.920 and Tierra. But Tina's been the main focus here because 0:46:08.480 --> 0:46:10.719 she was doing a lot of advocacy work for me 0:46:11.280 --> 0:46:14.280 online and through her college. You know, she's a school teacher, 0:46:14.520 --> 0:46:19.759 graduated from Outer Beean College in Columbus, Ohio, and so 0:46:19.920 --> 0:46:23.800 she's been out there pushing things, you know, you know, 0:46:23.960 --> 0:46:26.120 like really pushing hard. She was pushing when she was 0:46:26.200 --> 0:46:30.480 in college, and you know, Martin came along, so it 0:46:30.600 --> 0:46:32.719 just made everything a lot better and easier for us. 0:46:33.440 --> 0:46:36.520 Yeah, I mean, I've seen videos of her advocating for 0:46:36.600 --> 0:46:39.680 you so powerfully, and such a beautiful speaker she is, 0:46:39.800 --> 0:46:43.560 and just a really amazing soul from what I can 0:46:43.640 --> 0:46:43.840 tell you. 0:46:43.960 --> 0:46:47.239 Yeah, no doubt. She's just like she's so humble and 0:46:48.200 --> 0:46:51.719 soft spoken, and she loves her kids. She knows all 0:46:51.760 --> 0:46:54.960 her names. You know, she spent special time with the kids. 0:46:55.040 --> 0:46:56.840 I mean, she's like one of the greatest teachers on 0:46:56.920 --> 0:46:57.360 the planet. 0:46:57.719 --> 0:46:59.400 Mm hm. Like I said, how proud you are of 0:47:00.000 --> 0:47:02.000 out of her too, I mean for your kids to 0:47:02.120 --> 0:47:04.640 have to because of course, when when we talk about 0:47:04.680 --> 0:47:06.960 this a lot, when someone like yourself is wrongfully convicted, 0:47:07.000 --> 0:47:07.480 it's not just. 0:47:07.560 --> 0:47:09.680 You, right, they suffered. 0:47:09.760 --> 0:47:12.480 Yeah, they grew up without their dad, and they could 0:47:12.520 --> 0:47:14.600 have easily gotten on the wrong track and ended up 0:47:14.880 --> 0:47:18.840 behind bars too. But they managed to persevere somehow, and 0:47:18.960 --> 0:47:22.640 they managed to all of them, right, not persevere, but succeed. 0:47:23.880 --> 0:47:26.239 Yeah. That's a miracle, right, that is a miracle. You know, 0:47:26.360 --> 0:47:29.080 but every chance I could, every chance I had, I 0:47:29.200 --> 0:47:31.960 wrote them. We talked on the phone, you know, and 0:47:32.080 --> 0:47:34.719 I know that what I what I've observed is that 0:47:35.080 --> 0:47:38.440 you know, you have parents that's out there that a 0:47:38.520 --> 0:47:41.160 lot of times they don't take the opportunity to spend 0:47:41.239 --> 0:47:43.400 time to speak to the kids about the world and 0:47:43.480 --> 0:47:46.200 different things like that. So I took the opportunity to 0:47:46.280 --> 0:47:49.920 constantly right and speak about life everything, just give them 0:47:49.960 --> 0:47:52.880 as much wisdom as I could on the telephone and 0:47:52.960 --> 0:47:53.480 through a letter. 0:47:55.120 --> 0:47:56.839 A lot more power to you, I mean, I think 0:47:56.920 --> 0:48:00.200 it's it's a great tribute to you, the fact that 0:48:00.320 --> 0:48:02.520 they have turned out to them too. I mean, I'm 0:48:02.520 --> 0:48:04.800 not taking an incredible from them, but I think that 0:48:05.440 --> 0:48:08.000 we cannot downplay the role that you played in your 0:48:08.080 --> 0:48:14.400 own your own freedom, in getting freedom for yourself. And 0:48:15.560 --> 0:48:19.120 then also the family side is just it's a beautiful story. 0:48:19.160 --> 0:48:21.399 I mean, it's a tragic story, but it's a beautiful story. 0:48:21.440 --> 0:48:22.920 And now it's about to get better because you're off 0:48:22.960 --> 0:48:26.560 the cot courses that you've painted in your mind and 0:48:26.960 --> 0:48:29.359 on the paper and on the canvas and everything else, 0:48:29.360 --> 0:48:31.239 and we have some of your artwork here. It's phenomenal. 0:48:31.880 --> 0:48:38.000 So This is my favorite part of the show. But 0:48:38.160 --> 0:48:40.759 we have a tradition here at Romful Conviction, which is 0:48:40.840 --> 0:48:44.080 that as we get to the you know, to the 0:48:44.200 --> 0:48:47.759 end of the episode, I like to just thank you. 0:48:49.320 --> 0:48:54.040 Our featured guests are honored guest Valentino Dixon twenty seven 0:48:54.120 --> 0:48:56.439 years in and twenty nine days out right, and it's 0:48:56.520 --> 0:49:01.439 incredible to have you here so soon after your or exoneration. 0:49:02.680 --> 0:49:04.120 But this is the part of the show where I 0:49:04.239 --> 0:49:07.600 get to stop talking and just listen. And so what 0:49:07.719 --> 0:49:10.080 I'd like to do now is just turn the microphone 0:49:10.080 --> 0:49:12.160 over to you. I want to thank you again for 0:49:12.320 --> 0:49:15.480 being here and for everything that you're doing. I'm excited 0:49:15.560 --> 0:49:17.200 to get to know you better and to watch you, 0:49:17.880 --> 0:49:21.040 you know, make your mark in the world and get 0:49:21.080 --> 0:49:23.719 to know your family and everything else. So again, it's 0:49:23.760 --> 0:49:26.080 been a great experience for me. Thank you for coming. 0:49:26.200 --> 0:49:28.160 And now I'm turning it over to you for your 0:49:28.239 --> 0:49:30.640 last thoughts on any subject you want to talk about. 0:49:31.000 --> 0:49:36.920 Well, we have to, you know, make prison reform a 0:49:37.160 --> 0:49:40.920 serious topic to be discussed, you know, and we have 0:49:41.080 --> 0:49:45.400 to inform the public. Most people that don't have anybody 0:49:45.480 --> 0:49:49.200 in prison don't know what's going on in regards to 0:49:49.520 --> 0:49:52.560 the unfairness and how the judicial system operates. 0:49:53.160 --> 0:49:53.560 You know that. 0:49:55.200 --> 0:49:58.080 If you're poor, you know, most of the time, you're 0:49:58.120 --> 0:49:59.880 not going to receive a fair trial, because this is 0:50:00.160 --> 0:50:01.880 if it's not designed or equip to give you a 0:50:01.960 --> 0:50:05.839 fair trial, you know. And my goal is to reach 0:50:05.880 --> 0:50:12.120 out to prosecutors, judges and politicians, you know, to get 0:50:12.160 --> 0:50:14.879 them to you know deep you know, reach deep down 0:50:14.960 --> 0:50:18.759 into their soul, the greater part of their soul, you know, 0:50:18.880 --> 0:50:21.839 and to have this care and this compassion, and it's 0:50:21.920 --> 0:50:24.800 concerned for those outside of your group, you know, because 0:50:24.880 --> 0:50:29.279 most prosecutors and judges, my experience has been that they 0:50:29.360 --> 0:50:33.799 don't really focus or care about those outside of the group, 0:50:34.040 --> 0:50:36.839 you know, And you know, I want to be able 0:50:36.880 --> 0:50:41.440 to bridge that gap. And because we're all human beings, 0:50:41.760 --> 0:50:45.160 you know, and we all make mistakes, you know. But 0:50:45.520 --> 0:50:47.560 you know, like I was telling you earlier, like we're 0:50:47.640 --> 0:50:50.600 the humanity, you know, and you know, we can speak 0:50:50.600 --> 0:50:54.000 about mass incarceration all day long, you know, until our 0:50:54.040 --> 0:50:56.160 eyeballs pop out, but at the end of the day, 0:50:56.200 --> 0:50:57.960 we need to come down with a solution and we 0:50:58.040 --> 0:50:59.080 need to do something about it. 0:50:59.719 --> 0:50:59.880 You know. 0:51:00.120 --> 0:51:02.680 Sentencing laws is the worst We have some of the 0:51:02.719 --> 0:51:04.960 worst centence laws in the in the world, in the country, 0:51:05.160 --> 0:51:09.200 especially in New York State, you know, and there's bills 0:51:09.280 --> 0:51:13.680 on the table that should be passed, we should you know, positives. 0:51:13.840 --> 0:51:17.160 You know, the politicians no longer overlook these, uh, these 0:51:17.239 --> 0:51:20.320 bills that's on the table or the problems that's concerning 0:51:21.000 --> 0:51:25.480 you know, minorities, you know. And I hate to make 0:51:25.560 --> 0:51:28.239 it a race issue, you know, you know, I hate 0:51:28.239 --> 0:51:32.560 to make it a race issue. But just imagine this. 0:51:34.120 --> 0:51:36.440 And when I was speaking with the governor's people or 0:51:36.560 --> 0:51:39.759 two weeks ago, I asked them, I said, can you 0:51:39.880 --> 0:51:44.240 imagine if young black guys were going off to college 0:51:45.000 --> 0:51:49.399 and getting jobs and young white guys were going off 0:51:49.440 --> 0:51:52.400 to prison? Can you imagine this? You can imagine this 0:51:52.760 --> 0:51:55.600 because the problem will be a fixed immediately, you know, 0:51:55.920 --> 0:51:59.600 and because you know, seventy seventy something percent of minorities 0:52:00.440 --> 0:52:02.960 that's locked up in New York State in these prisons, 0:52:03.880 --> 0:52:09.080 you know, and we just have to you know, Martin 0:52:09.160 --> 0:52:11.080 Luther King said it best, you know, he said, people 0:52:11.160 --> 0:52:17.440 are victims of intellectual and spiritual blindness. They know now 0:52:17.520 --> 0:52:21.040 what they do that even those slave owners that own 0:52:21.120 --> 0:52:24.279 slaves were not evil or bad people. They were just 0:52:24.440 --> 0:52:27.480 motivated by greed, you know. And when I look at, 0:52:27.680 --> 0:52:29.800 you know, what's going on with our prison system, the 0:52:29.840 --> 0:52:34.440 mass incarceration. You know, it's jobs and it's greed, and 0:52:34.520 --> 0:52:38.160 it's a certain class of people that receive these benefits, 0:52:38.600 --> 0:52:43.320 and it's devastating for minorities across the country, you know. 0:52:43.560 --> 0:52:46.000 So I just think that, you know, as human beings, 0:52:46.080 --> 0:52:50.120 we need to look at it from that perspective, and 0:52:51.719 --> 0:52:54.520 it makes the changes fast, not five or ten years 0:52:54.560 --> 0:52:57.480 from now, but now. And it's only right, you know, 0:52:57.560 --> 0:53:00.120 when you look at in comparison to other countries. You know, 0:53:00.200 --> 0:53:02.799 we can learn from Norway, you know, we can learn 0:53:02.880 --> 0:53:06.200 from England, you know. Or a ten year sentence over here, 0:53:06.840 --> 0:53:10.239 a lot of cases, it's six months in England, you know, 0:53:10.560 --> 0:53:15.000 and it's not even close. So we know that they're 0:53:15.040 --> 0:53:17.680 not going to change the system as far as getting 0:53:17.719 --> 0:53:20.319 rid of the judges and the prosecutors, et cetera, et cetera. 0:53:20.360 --> 0:53:22.239 So guess what we can do here to make it 0:53:22.640 --> 0:53:28.480 a lot more. Just reduce the censusing laws. That's it. 0:53:29.080 --> 0:53:32.120 Reduce the sentencing laws. The mentality is not going to change, 0:53:32.680 --> 0:53:35.399 you know, you either, you know, you have a good heart, 0:53:35.680 --> 0:53:37.719 or you have a heart that's not so good, or 0:53:37.760 --> 0:53:40.719 you have a bad heart. So you know, the mentality 0:53:40.800 --> 0:53:42.400 is not going to change. These people in the system 0:53:42.440 --> 0:53:44.760 are already sett in place. You're not going to remove 0:53:44.840 --> 0:53:47.360 these people. You're not going to change the guards, the judges, 0:53:47.400 --> 0:53:50.480 the prosecutors. The only thing you can do to make 0:53:50.560 --> 0:53:54.320 this right is to reduce these censensing laws across the board. 0:53:55.080 --> 0:53:57.359 That's it. I don't leave on that note. 0:53:58.640 --> 0:54:00.400 And on that note, I just want to say that 0:54:00.800 --> 0:54:03.600 I've been working with Families Against Mandatory Minimums for twenty 0:54:03.680 --> 0:54:07.239 five years. Right, it's a wonderful organization. I hope people 0:54:07.320 --> 0:54:10.080 will take your words and go and get involved. You 0:54:10.120 --> 0:54:12.680 can go to f A m M. That's f like 0:54:12.920 --> 0:54:18.160 Frank a Mmmandatory Minimums dot org or learn more about 0:54:18.200 --> 0:54:20.759 this issue. Let's get this country back on track and 0:54:21.000 --> 0:54:22.560 get back and step with the rest of the Western 0:54:22.600 --> 0:54:24.799 world and stop treating our people the way the way 0:54:24.840 --> 0:54:26.439 we do it in terms of locking them up forever. 0:54:26.600 --> 0:54:28.719 And let me just say that Jason Wimer thing right 0:54:29.680 --> 0:54:32.040 where I come from. I come from the worst part 0:54:32.440 --> 0:54:35.719 of my city, Buffalo, New York, Okay. Whereas it's an 0:54:35.800 --> 0:54:41.600 economic collapse. There's no jobs, there's poverty, there's drugs, there's 0:54:41.719 --> 0:54:45.759 legal weapons, you know, and these kids don't feel like 0:54:45.840 --> 0:54:49.480 they have options. And at the end of the day, 0:54:49.920 --> 0:54:52.279 what do you think is going to happen in these 0:54:52.320 --> 0:54:55.160 type environments. You know, most of these kids are either 0:54:55.160 --> 0:54:56.759 going to go to jail or they're gonna get killed. 0:54:57.520 --> 0:55:00.520 And that's just the reality here, you know. So the 0:55:00.640 --> 0:55:04.239 only way to change that is government funding, you know, job, 0:55:04.320 --> 0:55:10.560 better jobs, schooling, housing, you know, to these underdeveloped areas 0:55:10.920 --> 0:55:14.480 where there aren't any factories in the inner city, you know, 0:55:15.200 --> 0:55:19.520 where you know, the globalization and the industrialization that has 0:55:19.680 --> 0:55:23.880 changed the infrastructure of America. You know, we have to 0:55:23.960 --> 0:55:26.399 bring jobs back. You know, when you bring jobs back, 0:55:26.440 --> 0:55:29.439 you see a whole totally different society as a whole, 0:55:29.760 --> 0:55:32.359 especially in the inner city. That's the main issue. People 0:55:32.520 --> 0:55:36.239 really want to work, you know, if given the opportunity 0:55:36.800 --> 0:55:40.560 and given a decent job, you know, because the amendmum 0:55:40.560 --> 0:55:44.480 waste jobs is just not enough to cover people's living expenses. 0:55:44.600 --> 0:55:47.880 It's just not enough, so people resort to other things. 0:55:48.239 --> 0:55:50.560 And then you have to look at the the mental 0:55:51.360 --> 0:55:53.680 issues that we're dealing with in America. You know, a 0:55:53.760 --> 0:55:57.719 person's background, you know, the history of the person. You know, 0:55:57.800 --> 0:55:59.839 we have to take consideration of all of these things. 0:56:00.280 --> 0:56:02.520 We decided to give a person thirty or forty years, 0:56:03.280 --> 0:56:05.120 you know. And I think this is where the compassion, 0:56:05.640 --> 0:56:09.200 the empathy, the sympathy, you know, the love for your 0:56:09.520 --> 0:56:13.279 fellow human being comes in that all right now, I'm done. 0:56:15.920 --> 0:56:18.280 Yeah, it sounds like you need to be running for office, 0:56:18.400 --> 0:56:19.880 is what you need to be doing, because you have 0:56:19.960 --> 0:56:21.560 a lot of h I mean, you have a lot 0:56:21.600 --> 0:56:24.360 of knowledge, a lot of wisdom, and you obviously have 0:56:24.400 --> 0:56:27.840 a great heart and a strong desire to reform the 0:56:27.880 --> 0:56:29.920 system and help other people in the situation you're in. 0:56:30.080 --> 0:56:31.160 Oh, can I just say one more thing? 0:56:31.280 --> 0:56:31.480 Yeah? 0:56:31.560 --> 0:56:39.040 Okay, how can I put this without offending anybody? You know, 0:56:39.640 --> 0:56:43.360 people always ask me about black lives matter? Okay, And 0:56:43.480 --> 0:56:45.800 my message to a black lives matter would be is 0:56:45.880 --> 0:56:51.800 to not isolate anyone, to not push anyone away, to 0:56:51.880 --> 0:56:55.160 bring everybody on board. Okay. And Martin Luther King was 0:56:55.200 --> 0:57:00.640 the best that ever did it without without cauedations or 0:57:01.120 --> 0:57:05.080 white or non blacks, Civil Rights nineteen sixty four Civil 0:57:05.120 --> 0:57:09.600 Rights Act wouldn't have been passed, you know, without non Whites. 0:57:09.760 --> 0:57:13.400 Barack Obama had never been president, slavery would never end it, 0:57:13.719 --> 0:57:16.400 you know. So until we put the Eagles aside and 0:57:16.560 --> 0:57:19.200 learn to work together collectively, you know, we're not going 0:57:19.240 --> 0:57:22.400 to get anything done. Okay, now I'm finished. 0:57:24.640 --> 0:57:29.160 We've been Uh what can I even say? All I 0:57:29.240 --> 0:57:33.200 can say is, Valentino, thank you again for being here. 0:57:33.280 --> 0:57:37.880 You've been listening to Wrongful Conviction with our very very 0:57:37.960 --> 0:57:42.600 special guest Valentino Dixon today and thank you for thank 0:57:42.640 --> 0:57:57.919 you for listening. Tune in again next week. Don't forget 0:57:58.000 --> 0:58:01.000 to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you get your podcasts, 0:58:01.240 --> 0:58:04.360 it really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the 0:58:04.440 --> 0:58:06.920 Innocence Project and I really hope you'll join me in 0:58:07.000 --> 0:58:10.880 supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future 0:58:10.880 --> 0:58:14.360 wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot org to learn 0:58:14.440 --> 0:58:17.080 how to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank 0:58:17.160 --> 0:58:20.560 our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music 0:58:20.640 --> 0:58:23.320 in the show is by three time OSCAR nominated composer 0:58:23.520 --> 0:58:26.240 Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at 0:58:26.360 --> 0:58:31.080 Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful 0:58:31.120 --> 0:58:33.840 Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava for 0:58:33.920 --> 0:58:37.320 Good podcasts and association with signal company Number one