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Speaker 1: In twenty eighteen, I interviewed Valentino Dixon. He had been

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Speaker 1: out of prison for just twenty nine days after serving

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Speaker 1: almost three decades for a crime they knew he didn't

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Speaker 1: commit from the first moment. There was no need to

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Speaker 1: prosecute him. There was no need to arrest him. He

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Speaker 1: had alibis. I mean, it's crazy. So the good news

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Speaker 1: is some incredible things have been happening for Valentino since

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Speaker 1: he got out and since he recorded his episode of

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Speaker 1: Wrongful Conpiction that you're about to hear. In twenty nineteen,

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Speaker 1: he had his first art show, his solo art show

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Speaker 1: in New York City, and since then it's taken off.

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Speaker 1: He was a guest of the PGA at the Masters Championship,

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Speaker 1: where he famously told Tiger Woods in the Butler cabin

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Speaker 1: he said, you're gonna win, and you know what happened.

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Speaker 1: He won. The pictures from that trip where extraordinary. Valentino

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Speaker 1: has traveled the world, been to golf courses all over

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Speaker 1: the place. He's become a favorite among the top PGA players,

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Speaker 1: and his art has been selling like hotcakes. I hope

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Speaker 1: you get a chance to check it out. He's also

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Speaker 1: got a line of greeting cards. That's extraordinary. And Valentino

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Speaker 1: is just like a beacon of light. I mean, this guy,

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Speaker 1: he drops some knowledge on this episode that is just

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Speaker 1: like verbal gold and spiritual gold. He is an extraordinary,

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Speaker 1: extraordinary man. I'm honored to be presenting to you my

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Speaker 1: episode of Wrongful Conviction with Valentino Dixon.

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Speaker 2: I've never been in trouble in my life. I didn't

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Speaker 2: even have a Perkin ticket, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: I was brought up like cops are the good guys.

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Speaker 3: I didn't know what was gonna happen, but I do

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Speaker 3: know that everything was stacked against me. Everything everything, This

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Speaker 3: isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I know

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Speaker 3: I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to do with this.

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Speaker 3: How is this possible?

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Speaker 4: I grew up trusting the systems. I've grew up believing

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Speaker 4: that every human being should do the right thing. And

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Speaker 4: that's why, even though I knew I was dealing with

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Speaker 4: core rough people, I wasn't going to break anyone to

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Speaker 4: get me out of prison because I wouldn't live with

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Speaker 4: the fact that I braved my way out of my

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Speaker 4: wife's death.

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Speaker 5: I'm not innocent. Too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I

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Speaker 5: prove my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me.

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Speaker 1: Our system.

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Speaker 2: Since I've been out ten years, it has come a

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Speaker 2: little ways, but it's still broken.

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Speaker 4: I totally lost trust in humanity after what's happened to it.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Wrong for Conviction. I am extremely excited

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Speaker 1: today to have somebody who I admire greatly, Valentino Dixon.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 5: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 4: So.

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Speaker 1: Valentino was released from prison declared actually innocent twenty nine

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Speaker 1: days ago, after having been in since nineteen ninety one. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and we are in twenty eighteen.

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Speaker 5: That's right, that's what they tell me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's a long long time.

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Speaker 5: Yes, yes, it is.

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Speaker 1: For crime that not only didn't you commit, but a

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Speaker 1: crime that everybody knew you didn't commit from day one,

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Speaker 1: because of the simple fact that the actual killer confessed

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Speaker 1: on video.

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Speaker 5: And here two days after I was arrested.

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Speaker 1: Right, so you know, and I hear myself say that,

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Speaker 1: and I'm like, Okay, that can't be. I mean, that

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Speaker 1: doesn't make any logical sense our system, and that wasn't

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Speaker 1: the only time you confessed. But let's go back. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about a murder case, seventy witnesses. It would

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Speaker 1: seem impossible for this to have happened in a situation

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Speaker 1: like this one. This was not an isolated thing on

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Speaker 1: a dutchy road somewhere. This was a crowded it was

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Speaker 1: a summer night in Buffalo, New York East Buffalo, right, yep.

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Speaker 1: And I guess let's go right to it because it's

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Speaker 1: such an incredible story and there's so much to it

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Speaker 1: as we get to the way that you got out

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Speaker 1: is as extraordinary as it is unique, because you basically

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Speaker 1: drew yourself out of prison with colored pencils, I mean,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of help from a lot of different people,

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Speaker 1: including some incredible, incredible students at Georgetown University. And I

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Speaker 1: have a very strong connection there in a lot of ways.

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Speaker 1: So I'm super excited to be able to meet you

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Speaker 1: and share this experience in person and not behind walls.

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Speaker 1: So let's go back to that, faithful, What was morning, right?

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Speaker 1: It was early in the morning, one in the morning

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Speaker 1: on August tenth, nineteen ninety one. Take our audience into

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Speaker 1: you were nearby. But I don't, I mean, I know

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Speaker 1: the story, but I want to hear it in your words.

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Speaker 5: Well, I was hanging out with some friends, and before

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Speaker 5: I came on the scene, some threats had been made, okay,

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Speaker 5: but it wasn't my issue, so I didn't think a

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Speaker 5: whole lot of it. You know, where I come from,

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Speaker 5: these type of things happen all the time. No, the

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Speaker 5: threats were made, I was aware of it. I went

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Speaker 5: inside the store to get a beer. I'm reaching in

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Speaker 5: the cooler and I hear pop pop. So instead of

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Speaker 5: standing in the store, I run out of the store.

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Speaker 1: So you knew what it was right away.

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Speaker 5: Of course, I've heard gunfire before. I come from the

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Speaker 5: worst parts of Buffalo, New York. I mean, very violent area,

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Speaker 5: drug infested area, so you know, gunfire wasn't something that

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Speaker 5: was new to me. You know. So I'm in the store,

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Speaker 5: reaching to get a beer out and I hear the

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Speaker 5: pop pop. The only thing that come in my mind

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Speaker 5: is that whatever they was talking about just happened. So

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Speaker 5: instead of standing in the store, I ran out of

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Speaker 5: the store to be nosy or whatever, young and stupid,

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Speaker 5: and two or three guys they you know, engaging in

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Speaker 5: a gunfight, you know, So I run around the gunfight

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Speaker 5: to get to my car, jumps in my car and

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Speaker 5: pulls off. Uh shortly thereafter and pulled over, uh, handcuffed,

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Speaker 5: And at the time they told me that they wanted

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Speaker 5: to just interview me. Okay, so I just figured that,

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Speaker 5: uh maybe they figured I was a witness and uh

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Speaker 5: maybe I had some information. A couple hours later, they

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Speaker 5: charged me with murder, second degree murder, uh, two assaults

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Speaker 5: cause four people were shot. So in my mind, there's

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Speaker 5: no way that you know, uh, I'm gonna stay in

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Speaker 5: jail for this, because there was too many people out there,

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Speaker 5: and a lot of people out there knew me, you know,

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Speaker 5: they knew my face. You know, when you have sixty

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Speaker 5: seventy eighty people out there, Uh, there's no way that

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Speaker 5: they can get this wrong. Anyway. The guy that committed

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Speaker 5: his crime felt bad about what happened, you know, and

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Speaker 5: the guy that he killed, they actually found his gun

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Speaker 5: at the scene of the crime, you know, but the

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Speaker 5: prosecutor's office said that the gun played no part in

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Speaker 5: the crime.

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Speaker 1: Wait wait, wait, okay, hold on, let's go back to

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Speaker 1: this for a second. So, first of all, you're twenty

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Speaker 1: one years old at this time, and four people get shot,

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Speaker 1: right Toriano Jackson was killed.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and his brother was shot, and Mariol Jarman was

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Speaker 5: shot because Tory shot Mario before this guy Lamore ran

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Speaker 5: up and shot Tory and Aaron. You know, he came

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Speaker 5: to Mario's defense.

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Speaker 1: Got it and he said, I saw the video where

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Speaker 1: he said that he couldn't control the weapon and it

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Speaker 1: just well automatic weapon.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, from where when I ran down the street towards

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Speaker 5: my car, I actually turned around and the shooting was

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Speaker 5: still going on. You know, Lamore was doing the ball

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Speaker 5: of the shooting at the time. You know, I could

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Speaker 5: see it from where I was. You know. When the

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Speaker 5: police you know, pulled me over, of course, I said

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Speaker 5: I didn't know who did the shooting. You know, it's

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Speaker 5: like a cold thing, you know, that's not my business.

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Speaker 5: And they pretty much told me that if I didn't

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Speaker 5: tell them who did the shooting, that I was going

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Speaker 5: down for the shooting. Not at the time, because I

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Speaker 5: knew it was seventy eighty witnesses. All I need to

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Speaker 5: do is keep my mouth shut and I'm going home

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Speaker 5: because it's the other people that's gonna tell them what happened.

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Speaker 5: You know, you can't get this wrong. But at the

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Speaker 5: end of the day, after Lamar confessed, they told him

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Speaker 5: to leave the police station. They refused to hold him.

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Speaker 5: Eight or nine witnesses came forth and told the police

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Speaker 5: I didn't do the shooting. They disregarded all of them.

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Speaker 5: I found myself going to trial ten months later.

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Speaker 1: So you were in jail for these ten months waiting

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Speaker 1: no bail, they said, Nobel, you were held with out bail. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and even if it had been bailed, the probably wouldn't

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Speaker 1: be able to bail out, regardless wealthy family or anything

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Speaker 1: like that. I had a public defender, public defender. And

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Speaker 1: you were the only person arrested for this.

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Speaker 5: I was the only person arrested.

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Speaker 1: And did they test you for the residue?

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Speaker 5: They took my clothes, they took my car. They told me,

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Speaker 5: if I fire the weapon and they would know, there's

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Speaker 5: no way I would have been able to wipe off

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Speaker 5: that much gum part of the residues. This is what

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Speaker 5: they told me.

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Speaker 1: Of course, I were right right. It was only minutes

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Speaker 1: later when you got pulled over.

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Speaker 5: So I just knew once they took this stuff to

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Speaker 5: the lab or whatever they were going to do with it,

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Speaker 5: that I would be okay, you know. But even then,

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Speaker 5: with all of those witnesses. You know, I didn't ever

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Speaker 5: expect for this guy to come and confessed. You know,

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Speaker 5: that was something that people don't do. You know, he

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Speaker 5: came and confessed, and they kicked him out of the

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Speaker 5: police station said, you know, like get out of here.

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Speaker 5: We don't believe you. Okay, that's crazy, you know, it's

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Speaker 5: it's you can't make this stuff up.

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Speaker 1: But valancing what I mean, what could have You've had

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Speaker 1: twenty almost thirty years to think about this, right, the

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Speaker 1: better part of three decades to.

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Speaker 5: Think about this.

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Speaker 1: What could they possibly have been thinking if they had

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Speaker 1: the actual killer.

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Speaker 5: First of all, it was ego, you know, when you

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Speaker 5: have eagles and careers on the line, you know, and

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Speaker 5: you don't want to admit that you made a mistake.

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Speaker 5: You know, I'm a young black guy from the hood

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Speaker 5: with no money. We don't even have to say that

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Speaker 5: we made a mistake here. We're just going to go

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Speaker 5: through this process and convict him.

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Speaker 1: But this wasn't a particularly high profile can we know that?

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Speaker 5: You know, No, it wasn't, you know, but for whatever reason,

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Speaker 5: the prosecutor at the time, you know, he was, this

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Speaker 5: guy was, you know, criminal. I call him a criminal.

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Speaker 5: You know, in fact, he was with the DA's officers

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Speaker 5: not saying right now that they fired this guy. You know,

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Speaker 5: they fired him, and even when I was released, these

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Speaker 5: facts never came out. They kicked him out of the office.

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Speaker 5: You know, he even admitted that, you know, he could

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Speaker 5: have made a mistake in my case six seven years ago,

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Speaker 5: that he's only human. But I still sat in prison.

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Speaker 5: You know, it's just a matter of like, how do

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Speaker 5: you like when you see these guys with women to

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Speaker 5: ten twenty thirty forty years and maybe thirty years and

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Speaker 5: or wrongful conviction? You say, how did it get to

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Speaker 5: this point? And it got to this point because nobody

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Speaker 5: wants to take responsibility and you know, and I guess

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Speaker 5: they look at it as we'll left the next judge

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Speaker 5: and the next prosecutor fix it, and next thing, you know,

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Speaker 5: you have ten twenty thirty years in when the evidence

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Speaker 5: existed from day one. Right.

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Speaker 1: But going back, the thing about your case that's so

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Speaker 1: maddening and confusing and just inexplicable.

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Speaker 5: Don't try to don't try to figure it out, Jason.

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Speaker 5: There's no there's no way to there's nothing to figure

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Speaker 5: out here. This is this is our system, and if

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Speaker 5: you come up against a bad prosecutor or a couple

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Speaker 5: of bad cops, then this is what's gonna happen. People

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Speaker 5: are human beings, and this you know, you have some

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Speaker 5: bad apples in the system.

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Speaker 1: I'm right with you, and I'm picking up what you're

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Speaker 1: putting down. But having been doing this for twenty five

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Speaker 1: years now and having been we we're in seven seasons

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Speaker 1: of the show, so we've gotten in real granular tell

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Speaker 1: with so many people who are wrong for the convicted,

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Speaker 1: like yourself. And you know, just when I think I've

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Speaker 1: heard every story, and of course somebody like you comes

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Speaker 1: along and I'm like, oh, I've never heard anything like

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Speaker 1: that before. Because in this case, the one thing that

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Speaker 1: I'm focusing on right now is the idea that they

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Speaker 1: didn't have to worry about being mistaken, because it would

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Speaker 1: have been it wouldn't even made the twentieth page of

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Speaker 1: the newspaper. They would have just exchanged you for Lamar.

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Speaker 1: It was the actual killer, right and they would have

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Speaker 1: kept him moving. They would have had a rightful conviction,

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Speaker 1: and then nobody else would have got shot. And we

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Speaker 1: know that's exactly what did happen till we'll get to.

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Speaker 5: That well, let me just say this, I'm a stronger

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Speaker 5: believer in God, and I have a strong faith, you know,

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Speaker 5: and I believe that he had a plan for me,

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Speaker 5: you know, And that was my way of rationalizing what

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Speaker 5: happened here and keeping my sanity, you know, because you know,

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Speaker 5: prison is designed to break the spirit. So I knew

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Speaker 5: that guy had a plan for me, and he kept

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Speaker 5: me strong, you know. He you know, allowed me to

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Speaker 5: learn a lot, read a lot, educate myself elf, you know.

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Speaker 5: And that's I would like to, you know, pretty much

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Speaker 5: leave it there, you know, when it comes to trying

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Speaker 5: to figure out why did this happened?

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Speaker 1: The I'm gonna say.

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Speaker 5: I mean, you can go on and on. I'm just

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Speaker 5: saying in my mind, you know, I have to keep

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Speaker 5: it as simple as possible to keep my sanity, you know,

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Speaker 5: you know, I mean, it was like the worst nightmare

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Speaker 5: in the world, you know, and you can't even make

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Speaker 5: a night you can't even you can't even put a

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Speaker 5: script together and make a nightmare out of this thing,

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Speaker 5: like it's I mean, even when I went to trial,

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Speaker 5: I could have been acquitted. Had my lawyer call the

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Speaker 5: witnesses that he promised the jury he would call.

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Speaker 1: That's exactly what I want to get to now, because

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Speaker 1: your case, as much as it has some extremely unique aspects,

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Speaker 1: it also has some some characteristics that we see over

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Speaker 1: and over again and wrong for conviction cases. And one

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Speaker 1: of them was the fact that you were represented by

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Speaker 1: a grossly incompetent public defender. And I'm somebody who has

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Speaker 1: a ton of respect for public defenders. In fact, if

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Speaker 1: anyone who can see that movie Gideon's Promise, you come

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Speaker 1: out of that and you watch it and you go, man,

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Speaker 1: it's a noble profession. And there's a lot of people

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Speaker 1: out there busting their ass for very little money on

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Speaker 1: many hopeless cases. But they believe and they want to

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Speaker 1: do the right thing. But there's a lot of public

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Speaker 1: defenders who are out there and you can't even believe

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Speaker 1: they got out of law school or pass the bar.

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Speaker 1: I don't even understand. And you're and you got one

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Speaker 1: of those guys. You hit the reverse lottery on that one.

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Speaker 5: I mean, they say this before I even started trial.

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Speaker 5: You know, I was young, but I knew something was wrong.

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Speaker 5: You know, I actually accused him of conspiring with the

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Speaker 5: prosecutor at the time, And this is on the trial record,

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Speaker 5: you know. And the judge told me too that I

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Speaker 5: should be happy to have such a lawyer and that

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Speaker 5: we were proceeding forward with the trial. So it's not

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Speaker 5: like twenty seven years later I'm stating that you know

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Speaker 5: this happened to me. No, this is something that I

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Speaker 5: addressed the court from day one.

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Speaker 1: So you as a young man with no experience in

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Speaker 1: criminal justice, and no, you didn't have a higher education

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Speaker 1: like that year. But and from being inside jail, you

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Speaker 1: were still able to ascertain or to surmise that this

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Speaker 1: guy was not your friend and was not going to

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Speaker 1: do you any good, right, because and that's what a

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Speaker 1: devastating thing that is too, because here you have the

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Speaker 1: one person who's supposed to be your protector and you

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Speaker 1: can't even trust them.

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Speaker 5: No, well, it's called common sense, you know. Common sense

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Speaker 5: is could be worth all the money in the world,

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Speaker 5: you know, if you use it at the right moment,

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Speaker 5: you know. So he hadn't came to visit me but

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Speaker 5: one time for maybe fifteen to twenty minutes. During the

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Speaker 5: whole entire time that he represented me, he hadn't interviewed

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Speaker 5: ninety percent of the witnesses in the case. So I

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Speaker 5: knew something was wrong there, you know, and I told

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Speaker 5: the judge. You know, the judge disregarded it, you know,

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Speaker 5: not only that he you know, he promised at In fact,

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Speaker 5: he didn't even give an opening argument. And what lawyer

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Speaker 5: doesn't give an opening argument?

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I'm trying to envision that too. So first

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Speaker 1: of all, let's just get back to fifteen to twenty

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Speaker 1: minutes in the course of ten months, and your life

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Speaker 1: is at stake, and that's all the time he's got

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Speaker 1: for you. Now, I know he's busy, he's got a

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Speaker 1: lot of lower cases whatever, But have that many murder cases, right,

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Speaker 1: and I'm sure a lot of the cases were more

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Speaker 1: minor in terms of the you know, charges, and you

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Speaker 1: would hope that somebody that came would prioritize a situation

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Speaker 1: like yours. That's the most serious case that there is.

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Speaker 1: But okay, short of a death penalty case. But okay, so.

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Speaker 5: Let me just say this, Jason. You know, and all

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Speaker 5: professions you have bad people. You know, you have good doctors,

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Speaker 5: you have bad doctors. You know, have good lawyers and

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Speaker 5: bad lawyers. Good judge is a bad Joe. And if

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Speaker 5: you get if you end up with one of those

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Speaker 5: types of people, then it could be disastrous. It can

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Speaker 5: mean your life. And this is just the reality here.

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Speaker 1: That's I mean, that's well said, but this is I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's hard to think for me that there's the same

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Speaker 1: percentage of doctors. Right, And there's that big hit podcast

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Speaker 1: out now, doctor Death, about a doctor who is deliberately

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Speaker 1: killing his patients right, right, but or maiming them or whatever.

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Speaker 1: Is horrible, But I got to believe those are outliers,

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Speaker 1: and most doctors are doing the right thing, yeah, and

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Speaker 1: actually probably helping their patients, you know, more than they're

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Speaker 1: hurting them. And most lawyers are too. But there's there's

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Speaker 1: too many of these stories about these public defenders who

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Speaker 1: are just not interested or they're asleep, or they're high,

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Speaker 1: or they're whatever, and then they get this barred, but

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Speaker 1: it's too late and it doesn't matter. I think there

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Speaker 1: should be an automatic mechanism that if a defense lawyer

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Speaker 1: gets this barred, there are cases in which they in

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Speaker 1: which they failed so miserably, should get a fresh luck.

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Speaker 1: But that's another story for another day. That's not gonna

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Speaker 1: happen anytime soon, however, So your attorney, I don't even

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Speaker 1: know if you want to say his name, but it's

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Speaker 1: up to you. But he didn't even deliver an opening statement.

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Speaker 5: Didn't deliver an opening statement, you know. But he promised

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Speaker 5: the jury during jury selection that he would call witnesses

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Speaker 5: that would clear me. He says, I'm gonna call witnesses

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Speaker 5: that's going to tell you that Valentino Dixon didn't do

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Speaker 5: this shooting. The problem is is that not only did

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Speaker 5: he not give opening he didn't call any witnesses, okay,

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Speaker 5: And he asked the judge for advice on what he

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Speaker 5: should tell the jury doing his closing summation because they

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Speaker 5: excuse the jury. So the judge, he asked. The judge said,

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Speaker 5: your honor, you know I did promise the jury doing

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Speaker 5: jury selection that I would call witnesses that would clear Valentino.

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Speaker 5: I didn't call any. What should I do? What should

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Speaker 5: I tell the jury during my closing summation? On the record,

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Speaker 5: the judge says, I don't know what you should do.

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Speaker 5: That's not my responsibility. I can't help you on that.

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Speaker 5: The same judge told me I received a fair trial

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Speaker 5: when we filed emotions some years later to get my

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Speaker 5: conviction overturned.

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Speaker 1: Okay. So just so we're clear, no opening statement, no witnesses.

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Speaker 5: No, it's not one. That one. And not only that,

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Speaker 5: he didn't introduce one exhibit during the trial. So he

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Speaker 5: didn't introduce not one exhibit during the trial. And there

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Speaker 5: was plenty of statements that he could have used to

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Speaker 5: impeach the prosecuted witnesses because it was clear that they

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Speaker 5: were lying, that they were fabricating the story that they

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Speaker 5: gave on the stand, and he could have used their

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Speaker 5: prior statements, the statements that where they said they didn't

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Speaker 5: know who the shooter was then came the trial and

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Speaker 5: said that I was a shooter. He didn't used those

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Speaker 5: so during deliberations, the jury couldn't even see those previous

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Speaker 5: statements because the lewer never put not one single exhibit

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Speaker 5: or statement into evidence.

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Speaker 1: I hate to say it, but if I was on

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Speaker 1: the jury, I probably would have convicted you two.

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Speaker 5: Well, no, listen to this. Years later, what I found

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Speaker 5: out through the Buffalo News paper they wouldn't interview the

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Speaker 5: jury foreman. Ten years later and they says, well, we're

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Speaker 5: looking into this case, you know, can you tell me

390
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Speaker 5: what happened? The jury foreman says that, and I have

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Speaker 5: the statement he says that after I was convicted, he

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Speaker 5: went to the judge's chambers and asked the judge could

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Speaker 5: he speak with them. The judge allowed him to come in.

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Speaker 5: He says, Jre, honor, I don't feel right here or

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Speaker 5: something's not right here. Why didn't the lawyer call the

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Speaker 5: witnesses that he promised. The judge tells the jury foreman

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Speaker 5: to go home, sleep well, don't worry about it.

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Speaker 1: Wow, go home, sleep well, don't worry about it. And now,

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Speaker 1: by the way, the jury foreman was a little late too,

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Speaker 1: write I mean you know, I mean I respect him.

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Speaker 5: Ten years later, ten years after Yeah, but the oh.

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Speaker 1: Wait, it was ten years after they went to see

403
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Speaker 1: the judge.

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Speaker 5: No, he went to see the judge right after the verdict.

405
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Speaker 5: But we didn't find out until ten years later that

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Speaker 5: this happened because nobody reveals this.

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Speaker 1: But also, he was late, That's what I'm saying. He

408
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Speaker 1: had a chance to actually do something in the jury

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Speaker 1: room that would have actually been meaningful as opposed to

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Speaker 1: doing as opposed to doing what was convenient.

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Speaker 5: Well, no, listen to this. The first vote was a

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Speaker 5: ninety three not guilty. Wow. He says that the sheriff

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Speaker 5: deputy knocked on the door and says, hey, you guys

414
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Speaker 5: got to come back with a verdict within thirty minutes

415
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Speaker 5: or we're going to hold you or whatever. And he

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Speaker 5: says a particular woman. He kept saying that he just

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Speaker 5: got to find this guy guilty. I want to go home,

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Speaker 5: And so everybody swayed her vote, and this is how

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Speaker 5: they find the finding me guilty.

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Speaker 1: That's that's really crazy though, that the three were able

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Speaker 1: to convince them.

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Speaker 5: Ninety three ninety three not guilty.

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Speaker 1: This was the first vote.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, without the lawyer calling any witnesses.

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Speaker 1: Or anything, right and anything. And what about the videotape

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Speaker 1: of did you were you aware that there was a video.

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Speaker 5: Of course, of course I was aware that we had

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Speaker 5: the videotape. The lawyer never used that trial, He never

429
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Speaker 5: the jury never even knew another person confessed in his crime.

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Speaker 5: They kept that a freakway from.

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Speaker 1: The Okay, I'm not even right, I can't.

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Speaker 5: Even jury never knew that La mor scut confessed. We

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Speaker 5: had the videotape. The lawyer didn't use it. He didn't

434
00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:11,879
Speaker 5: even put it before the jury. He didn't bring it

435
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:13,240
Speaker 5: to your attention at all.

436
00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:16,560
Speaker 1: Did you say to him at the time. Where's the video? Why?

437
00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:19,920
Speaker 5: Of course, was when the judge told me to sit.

438
00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:22,240
Speaker 1: Down, And what did he say to you, lawyer?

439
00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:24,879
Speaker 5: He said that we didn't need to present this stuff

440
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:28,040
Speaker 5: because they didn't have a case against us. I mean,

441
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:29,639
Speaker 5: he said they didn't have a strong enough case. So

442
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:31,679
Speaker 5: why we don't need to call in these witnesses? They

443
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:32,600
Speaker 5: didn't have a case here?

444
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:34,639
Speaker 1: But what is that st doesn't explain the video? The

445
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:37,840
Speaker 1: videotape I watched it an.

446
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:39,919
Speaker 5: That would have made all the difference in the world.

447
00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:42,240
Speaker 5: If the jury would have knew that somebody else confessed

448
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:44,720
Speaker 5: that would I would have walked out of there.

449
00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:47,600
Speaker 1: But so did you sit there and say to him, look,

450
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:48,760
Speaker 1: just play the video.

451
00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:51,960
Speaker 5: I went there and I told him. I asked him,

452
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:53,960
Speaker 5: was he working with the prosecutor? You know? I was

453
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,600
Speaker 5: so angry and there was nothing I could do. I

454
00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:57,440
Speaker 5: was powerless.

455
00:22:58,119 --> 00:22:58,760
Speaker 1: You couldn't get the.

456
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:02,920
Speaker 5: Idea, couldn't The judge told me, no, this is all

457
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,480
Speaker 5: on the trial record. It's right there before my trial

458
00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:08,960
Speaker 5: even start. Then he turns around and proves me right.

459
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,199
Speaker 5: You know, that's it that he was you know, up

460
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:14,800
Speaker 5: to no good. I knew something was wrong, you know,

461
00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:17,720
Speaker 5: and he actually proved me right. He didn't call it

462
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:21,359
Speaker 5: any wits that didn't present the confession. Jury never knew LAMR.

463
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:22,160
Speaker 5: Scott confessed.

464
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:27,120
Speaker 1: I mean, this is so crazy. On so many it's criminal.

465
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:28,440
Speaker 5: It's criminal.

466
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:31,399
Speaker 1: And then and then Lamar Scott goes out and kills

467
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:34,960
Speaker 1: somebody else and actually says again on the video listen,

468
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:36,680
Speaker 1: that guy never would have had to die it got

469
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:40,439
Speaker 1: in the first place. I mean, yeah, that's not too

470
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,000
Speaker 1: many cases like this where somebody, the actual killer comes

471
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:45,919
Speaker 1: clean so early. Sometimes years and years later, they have

472
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 1: a religious awakening or a spiritual or whatever they do.

473
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:50,400
Speaker 1: They tell somebody, you know, just by acting.

474
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:53,360
Speaker 5: Well, his reason, his reasoning was, is that the deceased

475
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,400
Speaker 5: had a weapon. Okay, the deceased shot a guy named

476
00:23:56,440 --> 00:24:00,639
Speaker 5: Mario Jarmon the more ran to his defense, Okay, and

477
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:02,760
Speaker 5: this is what he told them that you know, I

478
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:04,639
Speaker 5: lost control of the gun, but it was self defense.

479
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,199
Speaker 5: I was running to my friend's defense, you know, like

480
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 5: it's this, you know, this is this is the whole

481
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:11,960
Speaker 5: level of madness. But I've lived through it, you know,

482
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:16,120
Speaker 5: I've survived the madness. And here we are today, so and.

483
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, and amen to that. So meanwhile, the jury goes out.

484
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:22,719
Speaker 1: How long did they deliberate?

485
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:26,640
Speaker 5: I believe about nine or ten hours.

486
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:27,880
Speaker 1: And then they come back in. Did you have any

487
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:28,359
Speaker 1: hope did you?

488
00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, I still had hope that I would be acquitted,

489
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,959
Speaker 5: of course, you know, and they read divertedt you know,

490
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 5: I blanked out. Basically, the family, the whole court was

491
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,160
Speaker 5: there for me, and they started screaming. You know, it's

492
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:42,439
Speaker 5: just a sad scene.

493
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:45,199
Speaker 1: Yeah. I heard you describe it and say that you

494
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:46,320
Speaker 1: felt like you were in space.

495
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,800
Speaker 5: Yeah. Just at that point, my mind was just not

496
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 5: even here on earth.

497
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 1: No, because basically, they gave you a life sentence a

498
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 1: fro thirty nine years when you're twenty one years old,

499
00:24:57,640 --> 00:24:59,159
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, they might as well give you

500
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 1: a life sentence point. So okay, So then you go

501
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 1: off and you're taking the prison and you're filing these

502
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 1: appeals and everything else.

503
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 5: Everything's denied over and over. Keep fighting, know. I started

504
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,200
Speaker 5: working on my own case, did a lot of research,

505
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:15,960
Speaker 5: learned how to write, you know, how to put my

506
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:19,680
Speaker 5: facts together, which was very helpful to even the Georgetown

507
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:21,920
Speaker 5: students when they got on board. You know that I

508
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:24,520
Speaker 5: had already had all the facts laid out the exhibits

509
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,239
Speaker 5: to support the facts. So it was, you know, it

510
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 5: was the process was easier.

511
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 1: For them, and you were in Attica, right.

512
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, twenty four years, but the twenty seven years, twenty

513
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 5: four years was spending Attica.

514
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 1: Can you describe that because Attica is of course a

515
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,720
Speaker 1: notorious prison where they had that one of the most

516
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 1: devastating incidents of riot with dozens and dozens people killed,

517
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,160
Speaker 1: and that goes back to the seventies, I think.

518
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, but seventy one.

519
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,679
Speaker 1: Can you describe for the audience what that was like?

520
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 5: Well, when you know, when I got there, the treatment

521
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:01,880
Speaker 5: was horrible. Stay that way, you know, and they never

522
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 5: did fire even after the riots. They never did change

523
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 5: the mentality or the attitude of the officers. And to

524
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 5: this day, I spoke to some guys yesterday that's in there.

525
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 5: They called me on the phone. You know. Every day

526
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 5: it's harassment, you know, it's mistreatment going on there every day,

527
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 5: and nobody would do anything about it. They're not held accountable,

528
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 5: you know, And so I feel for them.

529
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:25,880
Speaker 1: And were you subjected to that same treatment.

530
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 5: I had some problems, you know, but I carried myself

531
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 5: a certain way where because I knew my situation that

532
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 5: I had to be really really smart. I was there,

533
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 5: but I wasn't there.

534
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:39,720
Speaker 1: Put it that way, and that leads to a really

535
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 1: interesting and fascinating part of your story, which is that

536
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 1: you found some sort of escape from this artwork to

537
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 1: art right, and and it's it's quite remarkable because we'll

538
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 1: tell the story. I mean, you began drawing.

539
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,639
Speaker 5: I started drawing when I was about three years old. Okay.

540
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:03,919
Speaker 5: I went to perform in arts high school for drawing,

541
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:10,960
Speaker 5: and when I was arrested, I didn't draw for seven

542
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 5: years straight. I didn't touch a pencil or a paintbrush

543
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,359
Speaker 5: or anything. I didn't have. My spirit was it was dead,

544
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 5: you know. I didn't have to drive or any of

545
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,720
Speaker 5: that stuff. You know. Around the seventh year of being

546
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 5: in prison, I have an uncle who named Ronnie Bryant.

547
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,359
Speaker 5: He sent me some our supplies. He begged me to

548
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 5: start drawing again, you know, and even then I kept saying, no,

549
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,239
Speaker 5: I'm not interested. But eventually he won. He you know,

550
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:44,440
Speaker 5: he won that battle and I started drawing. And it

551
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:49,159
Speaker 5: was nineteen ninety seven, and so for the for the

552
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 5: next twenty years, I would draw every day, up to

553
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 5: ten hours a day, you know, and none stop. I

554
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 5: didn't take off three hundred and sixty five days a year,

555
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:05,359
Speaker 5: and it invigorated my spirit, you know, it gave me hope.

556
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 5: And then when a golf digest came along, you know,

557
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:13,199
Speaker 5: through the warden, the superintendent of Attica. You know, I

558
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,719
Speaker 5: was known as the artist, and he came by and

559
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 5: he asked me, would I draw his favorite golf course.

560
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,919
Speaker 5: I never golf before. You know where I'm from. You know,

561
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:26,199
Speaker 5: we don't golf, you know what I'm saying. So I

562
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 5: said sure, short of bringing in, I drew the golf

563
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,919
Speaker 5: you know, I think it was a twelfth hole of Augusta,

564
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 5: and he loved it. My neighbor, a guy named Adam Roberts.

565
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 5: He says, hey, you need to draw some more golf

566
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 5: course scenes. I said, Adam, I'm never going to golf.

567
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 5: I've never golfed and I don't know anything about the game.

568
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 5: He went and brought me some old golf died just magazines.

569
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 5: So I started going through him. I started, you know,

570
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 5: looking at the landscaping of everything. Basically, if you take

571
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 5: the poll out, you know, all golf courses is just

572
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 5: a beautiful landscape, you know. So I said, you know,

573
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 5: what Let me give it a try. You know. I

574
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 5: started drawing golf courses every day for the next six

575
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 5: or seven months, and then I took a couple of

576
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 5: them and I sent them to the Golf Dieges magazine

577
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 5: with a letter, and that started everything going on that level.

578
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 5: You know, the writer Max Aller decided that he wanted

579
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 5: to come visit me, and then he did a three

580
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,479
Speaker 5: page article in July twenty twelve.

581
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 1: The whole thing is so remarkable. I mean then it's

582
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 1: interesting too, because you're drawing three dimensional yeah, pictures of

583
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 1: courses that you were seeing in two dimensions right, right, right,

584
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 1: I mean because you could only see it in the magazine, right,

585
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 1: So you're taking life, a photograph of the real life,

586
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 1: and turning it back into a picture. It's like, it's

587
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 1: a very interesting process.

588
00:29:57,480 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 5: Let me say to Jason, after a while, I didn't

589
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 5: even need to pick. I can just make up a

590
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 5: course on my own. I didn't need the pictures anymore.

591
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 1: And and we know now that it's it's sort of

592
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 1: incredible that you're heading out to the West Coast with.

593
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 5: Tomorrow tomorrow the Pebble Beach, go to beach.

594
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 1: No, no, no, that's really now that I'm talking about

595
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 1: life imitating art. That's life imitating art, for sure.

596
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 5: It is.

597
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 1: But but so back to the story. So because this

598
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 1: that we'll get to the ending part at the end,

599
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 1: which is just an incredible, incredible story to be able

600
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 1: to tell. But so now about six years ago, golf

601
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 1: Diye just runs the story. But the next well, the really,

602
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 1: the the real, the real turning point or tipping point

603
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 1: in your whole situation came with a group of students

604
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 1: of all Things or Georgetown, right. And it's such a

605
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 1: personal thing to me because I've been to Georgetown and

606
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 1: spoken to that class actually Vice News Peace on on

607
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 1: the Wrong fu Conection podcasts and they filled me talking

608
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 1: to the kids at Georgetown, and of course Marty Tankleff,

609
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 1: who was one of the professors, there's a dear friend

610
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 1: of mine, his Xgnery, And I'm a sponsor of the class.

611
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 1: So there's so many interesting connections here that are you know,

612
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 1: it's very serendipitous. But how did that happen? How did

613
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 1: you first find out that these Georgetown kids were when

614
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 1: you must have I mean, it must have thought, but

615
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 1: these are kids, I mean, how can they help me know?

616
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:26,360
Speaker 1: There are undergraduate students.

617
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:30,960
Speaker 5: Well, Marty worked at a firm as a peer illegal

618
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 5: when he got out. I'm not going to say the

619
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 5: name of the firm, but at some point he left

620
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:38,959
Speaker 5: the firm and he had remembered me because he had

621
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 5: read a lot of my files.

622
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 1: So you were in prison with Marty.

623
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 5: No, oh, no, Marty was. When Marty got out, he

624
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 5: worked as a peer legal at a firm in New

625
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 5: York City who had took my case. They took my case. Yeah,

626
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 5: they took my case, but they didn't follow anything. They

627
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 5: pretty much sat on the case when they took it.

628
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 5: And after Marty left that firm, he always, you know,

629
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 5: just kept me in the back of his head because

630
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 5: he had read my file. And even though the lures

631
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 5: at that firm hadn't moved to foul anything, Marty remembered me.

632
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 5: And once he went to Georgetown, I believe he presented

633
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 5: my story to you and the students.

634
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 1: Right when I was there, they were talking about you,

635
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 1: for sure, and it was I mean, I got the

636
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 1: sense talking to those kids like there's something special going

637
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 1: on here. These kids are so smart, right, so driven.

638
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 1: I hope that every college has a class like that,

639
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:36,239
Speaker 1: because well, I mean, look, at the difference that they

640
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 1: made You're here. Yeah, so Marty brought it to the kids.

641
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 1: And then when did you find out that they were

642
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 1: actually going to create this documentary footage and do this

643
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 1: whole reinvestigation of your case? O.

644
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 5: Marty called my mother. Okay, he got her number and

645
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 5: called her up and he gave her the news. You know,

646
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 5: when I called home, she told me about it. And

647
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 5: we had just filed for before that and was denied

648
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 5: the clemency. So I was really down in a couple

649
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 5: weeks later, and this is when Marty out of nowhere

650
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 5: just called my mom up and said, hey, you know,

651
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,720
Speaker 5: we've chosen his case, you know, as a class project,

652
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 5: and we're going to do a documentary. So that was

653
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 5: like news that I needed to hear, you know, it was.

654
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:23,920
Speaker 5: It was the best news I had received, and I

655
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 5: believe in my whole time since I've been in prison.

656
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 1: Wow, So you knew you had a feeling, Yeah.

657
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 5: Because let me just say this, I've had nine different

658
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 5: lawyers over the twenty year twenty seven year span, nine

659
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 5: different lawyers. None of them could even get me a

660
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 5: hearing with all of this evidence that wasn't presented before

661
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 5: the jury. None of them could even give me a hearing.

662
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 5: So when Georgetown got involved, you know, it was like

663
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 5: this is different here. You know, this is different than

664
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 5: just hiring a lawyer. You have a whole university that's

665
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 5: supporting this. And whenever I would mention to tell anybody,

666
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 5: share with anybody that Georgetown was involved, you know you

667
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 5: could just the response was, oh, now you're going to

668
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 5: go home now that my family felt the same way.

669
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:11,279
Speaker 5: I felt the same way. Now it's going to happen.

670
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 1: And so the kids went and really reinvestigated, right, and

671
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 1: they found because the difficulty with your case was when

672
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 1: I'm sure people listening to go, wait a minute. But

673
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,280
Speaker 1: the guy confessed to confess over and over confess.

674
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 5: He confessed seven times.

675
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 1: Seven times.

676
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:31,840
Speaker 5: We have seven different confessions because he wanted to do

677
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:34,800
Speaker 5: the right thing so bad, and you know, he was

678
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,759
Speaker 5: actually an attica at one time. Did you ever see

679
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:39,759
Speaker 5: anyone put us in the same yard. We were in

680
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:43,000
Speaker 5: the same yard. Can you imagine that? No, yeah, the

681
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:44,800
Speaker 5: same yard. You know, I don't know if it was

682
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:48,920
Speaker 5: by design, but it was that was crazy within hisself,

683
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:51,839
Speaker 5: you know, but it worked itself out.

684
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:52,920
Speaker 1: Did you ever speak to him?

685
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 4: Oh?

686
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 5: Yeah, Well, he well, he approached me and I didn't

687
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 5: want to talk to him at all. I told him

688
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 5: to get away from me, you know, and I kind of,

689
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 5: you know, God sawted my heart up. I don't know,

690
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:06,480
Speaker 5: maybe a couple months later, I'm always seeing this guy

691
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 5: walk the yard, you know, I said, you know what,

692
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 5: you know, he tried to do the right thing, but

693
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 5: the police didn't want to hear it. So it's really

694
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 5: not his fault when you look at it. And so

695
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 5: we became pretty cordial, interesting.

696
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 1: Hard, right.

697
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 5: You know, I'm not I'm the type of person that

698
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:30,360
Speaker 5: you know, I'm very forgiving and I don't harbor stuff.

699
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 5: I've never been able, you know to I've never been

700
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 5: the type of person that harbor stuff, you know, bitter, angrier,

701
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 5: you know, I forgive real fast, you know. But that's

702
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 5: just who I am.

703
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 1: So the Georgetown kids get involved, and the difficulty was,

704
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,880
Speaker 1: among other things, is that they couldn't use the confession

705
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 1: because it wasn't new evidence, right, so they had to

706
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:57,320
Speaker 1: find new evidence in order to get your case reopened.

707
00:35:57,600 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 1: But they did, yes talk about that.

708
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 5: Well, the new evidence came in, well, when they took

709
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:07,839
Speaker 5: my car and my clothing, they tested it. But they

710
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 5: never revealed the results of the testing of the clothing.

711
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 5: So when Georgetown was asking the DA, like, you know

712
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:21,759
Speaker 5: what about the testing of his clothing, the DA says, oh, yeah,

713
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:24,760
Speaker 5: everything was tested and they came back negative. Oh okay,

714
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 5: we got a problem now because that sentencing or a trial,

715
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,759
Speaker 5: you never revealed that this happened. You never presented any

716
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:36,799
Speaker 5: document stating that these items came back negative. So that's

717
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 5: a clear Brady violation, okay, And there's nowhere around it

718
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 5: because all of this stuff appeared on the record and

719
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 5: the videotape too, and the videotape also, Yeah, I saw that.

720
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:49,879
Speaker 1: Video and I was like, oh my god, these kids

721
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:53,320
Speaker 1: have really done it now. Yeah, right, these are kids,

722
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,879
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I can't emphasize that enough. But they're

723
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 1: great kids. I mean, obviously they're smart kids. They're going

724
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 1: to Georgetown. You know, there's one thing all Georgetown students

725
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 1: have in common. They must have some serious mental faculties

726
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 1: or they would be getting in there in the first place.

727
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,239
Speaker 1: But these kids are really driven, and I can't even

728
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:11,319
Speaker 1: imagine how good this must feel for them. I Mean,

729
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 1: I saw them at the on the day that you

730
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 1: were free and exonerated. And everything, and you know that's

731
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 1: not an experience any of them will ever forget. I mean,

732
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 1: I won't even forget it. So and I've been around

733
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 1: this stuff for so long, so they get a whole

734
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:27,440
Speaker 1: When did you find out that they had gotten this?

735
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 1: It's almost like a confession from the prosecutor on the radio.

736
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 5: Right, That's exactly what it was. And so you know,

737
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 5: I was in contact with them constantly, you know, I

738
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:40,879
Speaker 5: would speak to them on the phone maybe a couple

739
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 5: times a week. So when they revealed it to me,

740
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,200
Speaker 5: you know, I knew that that was the door opener.

741
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 5: I said, this is it right here, because it opened

742
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 5: the door for all the evidence that they previously disregarded.

743
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,000
Speaker 5: Now you have to look at this evidence. It's and

744
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 5: it's the totality right because of this. Yeah, that one

745
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:01,320
Speaker 5: violation to Brady violation.

746
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 1: That's and then yeah, and there's no there's no equivocating.

747
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 1: That's all right, I mean that was that was a quo.

748
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 5: Not only that, you know, the DA claimed and not

749
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 5: know about all of these witnesses, yet seven of them

750
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 5: were on his this witness list before trial. You know,

751
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 5: he says, like, what witnesses you're talking about? Well, those

752
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 5: seven witnesses are on your witness list that cleared me

753
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,240
Speaker 5: this crime. They claimed not to know about any witnesses

754
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:25,759
Speaker 5: that cleared me.

755
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 1: So you find out that the kids had gotten this right.

756
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 1: It like smoke called the smoking gun. Bad play on

757
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 1: words here, but whatever. But then and then and then

758
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:37,920
Speaker 1: how did things start? They must have started to move

759
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:38,799
Speaker 1: pretty quickly from now.

760
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, within a matter of months, you know, the

761
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 5: motion was fouled. Uh that D eight said that they

762
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,920
Speaker 5: wouldn't contestant, you know, But even then, I, you know,

763
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 5: I was like, I wasn't one hundred percent sure that

764
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:54,320
Speaker 5: they want to stick to their word. They said to

765
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 5: follow the motion, we're not contestant. I still didn't trust

766
00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 5: the process, you know. And I didn't trust the process

767
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 5: all the way up into the day that I got out,

768
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:05,400
Speaker 5: when I was walking into the courtroom, I didn't trust

769
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 5: the process. I didn't know if they were going to

770
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 5: do the right thing or not. You just don't know

771
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 5: until it actually happens. So it happened.

772
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:16,840
Speaker 1: So let's talk about that, because let's go to We

773
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,040
Speaker 1: talked about the worst moment, but there were a lot

774
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:22,280
Speaker 1: of them, but the worst moment when you were actually convicted.

775
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:26,760
Speaker 1: So let's talk about the moment when this all finally

776
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 1: came to an end.

777
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:31,640
Speaker 5: I had a lot of time to think that day

778
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 5: because the prison guards would not release me. When the

779
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 5: judge ordered me release, the prison guard said no, they

780
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:39,279
Speaker 5: wanted to take me back to the prison to be

781
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 5: processed out. The judge says, no, he's going to be

782
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:44,759
Speaker 5: released from the courthouse, So it was a tug of

783
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:46,600
Speaker 5: wars there, and they had to get a fact from

784
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,360
Speaker 5: Aubury stating that it's okay to release him, and that

785
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:51,840
Speaker 5: took two hours. So I'm sitting in the room the

786
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 5: whole time. My mind is just spinning, and I know

787
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 5: all of my supporters and everybody's outside waiting for me.

788
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 5: So when I walk out, and I've got to walk

789
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:05,719
Speaker 5: down these a lot of steps to get to everybody,

790
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:08,719
Speaker 5: and my legs were so weak, you know, I was

791
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:10,719
Speaker 5: taking one step at a time because I didn't want

792
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 5: to fall down the steps, you know, you know, I

793
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:15,319
Speaker 5: was I almost felt like I wasn't gonna make it down,

794
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:17,920
Speaker 5: so I was just taking If you look at the video,

795
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:20,440
Speaker 5: because they have a video of it, you see me

796
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:23,840
Speaker 5: taking these tiny little steps because I'm aware, I'm conscious

797
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 5: that you know what, you're gonna fall down these steps

798
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:28,359
Speaker 5: because your legs is not not your legs right now,

799
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 5: you know what I'm saying.

800
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 1: But I made it down there, But you left out

801
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:37,400
Speaker 1: what I really wanted to hear, which is that moment

802
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:40,480
Speaker 1: when the judge declared you, oh yeah, I mean, can

803
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 1: you paint that picture? I know you can paint some pictures.

804
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:50,280
Speaker 5: Well, let me just say this. I always had faith,

805
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 5: and I always had to hope that that day would come.

806
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:53,320
Speaker 1: You know.

807
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 5: This is what kept me going is that I didn't know.

808
00:40:58,120 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 5: I didn't know when, but I knew it was going

809
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 5: to happen. I just didn't know when because I was

810
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:04,359
Speaker 5: never gonna give up. I was on the fight until

811
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:08,440
Speaker 5: my last breath. So when she declared that, it's like

812
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:12,239
Speaker 5: I had already lived it before. It's hard to I

813
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:13,960
Speaker 5: don't know if that makes any sense. It was like

814
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 5: I had already lived it before in my mind, you know.

815
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 5: And that's that's what kept me going in prison, is

816
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 5: that ninety percent of the time I was never there.

817
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 5: I was on the outside.

818
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:22,640
Speaker 4: You know.

819
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:25,920
Speaker 5: I would take myself to France, you know, or I'll

820
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 5: go fishing, or I would cook a dinner or something

821
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:30,440
Speaker 5: like that. I was never really there in the prison,

822
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 5: only maybe ten percent of the time when I had

823
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:35,400
Speaker 5: to be when there was something going on and I

824
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 5: needed to know what was going on around me Other

825
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 5: than that my mind. Whenever I would draw for those

826
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 5: ten hours, I would put my headphones on, turn the

827
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 5: music on, and I'm gone and just draw.

828
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 1: But even still, what was the that that you're in

829
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 1: the courtroom? I mean, this is the r This is

830
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 1: actually the opposite of what happened before, right when everybody

831
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 1: was screaming and crying and everything else, and you were

832
00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:00,359
Speaker 1: in space and blah blah blah. Right, so now you're

833
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 1: back right in the courtroom and the judge says.

834
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 5: You know what, I'm gonna be honest with you. I was.

835
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:09,759
Speaker 5: I was in space then again a different type of space.

836
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 1: Though, and I'm assuming pandemonium it did?

837
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 5: It did?

838
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 1: I mean, it's interesting because I've seen the video and

839
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 1: anyone who wants to can go online and just google

840
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:21,839
Speaker 1: your game.

841
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:26,320
Speaker 5: But let me just say this also, Jason, you know,

842
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 5: it was a happy day for me and the family

843
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:31,880
Speaker 5: and everything, but at the same time, I know I

844
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 5: was leaving behind so many people that's gonna need my help.

845
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:38,279
Speaker 5: You know, that's gonna need my voice because they don't

846
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:43,759
Speaker 5: have the avenue, you know, or anybody to advocate for them.

847
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:46,680
Speaker 5: So at that moment, I was really thinking about them

848
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 5: and what I needed to say to the media, you know,

849
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 5: to get the balls rolling as far as is in

850
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:55,279
Speaker 5: regards to the heart sentencing laws in New York State.

851
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 1: So it's a little bit bittersweet.

852
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, because I knew that, you know. Okay,

853
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 5: now here's a new chapter that's going to begin, you know,

854
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,800
Speaker 5: and it's not a you know, it's it's really not

855
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 5: about me now, it's about trying to save other people,

856
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 5: you know, from being wrongfully convicted or or receiving these

857
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 5: hardt interesting laws you know that's in New York State.

858
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:22,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean when we talked about that earlier, the

859
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:24,360
Speaker 1: fact that we are so out of step with the

860
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 1: rest of the Western world in terms of the way

861
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:28,040
Speaker 1: we sentenced people, in terms of way we punish people.

862
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:31,480
Speaker 1: I mean, a great group including my friend Dan Slepion,

863
00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 1: just just toured the prisons in Norway and Germany. They

864
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:40,360
Speaker 1: have a total of eight solitary confinement so right in

865
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 1: the whole country Germany, and they don't even use them.

866
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 5: Right right, we have.

867
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:46,759
Speaker 1: I think it's eighty to one hundred thousand people in

868
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 1: solitary solitary confinement. They have eight for the whole time.

869
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:54,320
Speaker 5: I know, guys that spent nine years in solitary confinement.

870
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:10,719
Speaker 1: Talk to me a little bit about family, because your

871
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:15,359
Speaker 1: daughter's here, an amazing, beautiful woman that she is. I've

872
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:21,839
Speaker 1: seen videos with some of your family members, your mom, right,

873
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 1: How important was family to you during this whole situation.

874
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:29,880
Speaker 5: And what does it mean to family is everything? You know,

875
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 5: without your support, I wouldn't be sitting here right now.

876
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:35,040
Speaker 5: You know, we kept each other strong. You know, Whenever

877
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:37,440
Speaker 5: they were down, I lifted them up. Whenever I was down,

878
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 5: they lifted me up.

879
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:38,880
Speaker 1: You know.

880
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:42,279
Speaker 5: Now it's you know, you know, even getting out. You know,

881
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:45,480
Speaker 5: my grandmother, I've spent the last two weeks, you know,

882
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:48,800
Speaker 5: trying to get her house right. Her basement had flooded

883
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:51,439
Speaker 5: and stuff molded and everything. So me and a buddy

884
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 5: mine's ripped out all the walls and resealed the basement

885
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 5: up and you know, just fixed her. She's ninety years old,

886
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:01,399
Speaker 5: you know, you know, I got a new couch set

887
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:04,279
Speaker 5: and kitchen set and stuff like that, and painted all

888
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 5: the outside of the house and all this stuff.

889
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:06,719
Speaker 4: You know.

890
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:08,440
Speaker 5: So she was my tire priority.

891
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:08,800
Speaker 1: You know.

892
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:11,520
Speaker 5: Now it's gonna be my mom and then my my kids.

893
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:15,440
Speaker 1: My grandkids have five generations. Yeah, yeah, you know, and

894
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:17,400
Speaker 1: it's a lot of Dixons for me.

895
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 5: It's you know, it's not you know, when something like

896
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 5: this happens, you realize how precious life is, you know,

897
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 5: and that tomorrow's not promised. So you have to live

898
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:33,040
Speaker 5: every moment as if it's your last, you know. And

899
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 5: even when you don't have money to travel, it's little

900
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:38,440
Speaker 5: things that you can do, like making breakfast, you know,

901
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 5: and watch a movie, take a walk in the park,

902
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:43,719
Speaker 5: things that don't cost any money, you know. And I

903
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:46,919
Speaker 5: didn't understand this before, but I do now. So every

904
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 5: day every chance that I get, we're gonna have a moment.

905
00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 1: And you have three girls, I have four girls.

906
00:45:52,840 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 5: Wow, Yeah, I have four girls and names Jackie, Uh, Tina, Arianna,

907
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:06,920
Speaker 5: and Tierra. But Tina's been the main focus here because

908
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:10,719
Speaker 5: she was doing a lot of advocacy work for me

909
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:14,280
Speaker 5: online and through her college. You know, she's a school teacher,

910
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:19,759
Speaker 5: graduated from Outer Beean College in Columbus, Ohio, and so

911
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:23,800
Speaker 5: she's been out there pushing things, you know, you know,

912
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 5: like really pushing hard. She was pushing when she was

913
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 5: in college, and you know, Martin came along, so it

914
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:32,719
Speaker 5: just made everything a lot better and easier for us.

915
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I've seen videos of her advocating for

916
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:39,680
Speaker 1: you so powerfully, and such a beautiful speaker she is,

917
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:43,560
Speaker 1: and just a really amazing soul from what I can

918
00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:43,840
Speaker 1: tell you.

919
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:47,239
Speaker 5: Yeah, no doubt. She's just like she's so humble and

920
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:51,719
Speaker 5: soft spoken, and she loves her kids. She knows all

921
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 5: her names. You know, she spent special time with the kids.

922
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:56,840
Speaker 5: I mean, she's like one of the greatest teachers on

923
00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:57,360
Speaker 5: the planet.

924
00:46:57,719 --> 00:46:59,400
Speaker 1: Mm hm. Like I said, how proud you are of

925
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:02,000
Speaker 1: out of her too, I mean for your kids to

926
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:04,640
Speaker 1: have to because of course, when when we talk about

927
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:06,960
Speaker 1: this a lot, when someone like yourself is wrongfully convicted,

928
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 1: it's not just.

929
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:09,680
Speaker 5: You, right, they suffered.

930
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:12,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, they grew up without their dad, and they could

931
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:14,600
Speaker 1: have easily gotten on the wrong track and ended up

932
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:18,840
Speaker 1: behind bars too. But they managed to persevere somehow, and

933
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 1: they managed to all of them, right, not persevere, but succeed.

934
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:26,239
Speaker 5: Yeah. That's a miracle, right, that is a miracle. You know,

935
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 5: but every chance I could, every chance I had, I

936
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 5: wrote them. We talked on the phone, you know, and

937
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:34,719
Speaker 5: I know that what I what I've observed is that

938
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:38,440
Speaker 5: you know, you have parents that's out there that a

939
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 5: lot of times they don't take the opportunity to spend

940
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:43,400
Speaker 5: time to speak to the kids about the world and

941
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 5: different things like that. So I took the opportunity to

942
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:49,920
Speaker 5: constantly right and speak about life everything, just give them

943
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:52,880
Speaker 5: as much wisdom as I could on the telephone and

944
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:53,480
Speaker 5: through a letter.

945
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:56,839
Speaker 1: A lot more power to you, I mean, I think

946
00:47:56,920 --> 00:48:00,200
Speaker 1: it's it's a great tribute to you, the fact that

947
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 1: they have turned out to them too. I mean, I'm

948
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:04,800
Speaker 1: not taking an incredible from them, but I think that

949
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 1: we cannot downplay the role that you played in your

950
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:14,400
Speaker 1: own your own freedom, in getting freedom for yourself. And

951
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 1: then also the family side is just it's a beautiful story.

952
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:21,399
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a tragic story, but it's a beautiful story.

953
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:22,920
Speaker 1: And now it's about to get better because you're off

954
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:26,560
Speaker 1: the cot courses that you've painted in your mind and

955
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:29,359
Speaker 1: on the paper and on the canvas and everything else,

956
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:31,239
Speaker 1: and we have some of your artwork here. It's phenomenal.

957
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:38,000
Speaker 1: So This is my favorite part of the show. But

958
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:40,759
Speaker 1: we have a tradition here at Romful Conviction, which is

959
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:44,080
Speaker 1: that as we get to the you know, to the

960
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:47,759
Speaker 1: end of the episode, I like to just thank you.

961
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:54,040
Speaker 1: Our featured guests are honored guest Valentino Dixon twenty seven

962
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:56,439
Speaker 1: years in and twenty nine days out right, and it's

963
00:48:56,520 --> 00:49:01,439
Speaker 1: incredible to have you here so soon after your or exoneration.

964
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:04,120
Speaker 1: But this is the part of the show where I

965
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:07,600
Speaker 1: get to stop talking and just listen. And so what

966
00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 1: I'd like to do now is just turn the microphone

967
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:12,160
Speaker 1: over to you. I want to thank you again for

968
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:15,480
Speaker 1: being here and for everything that you're doing. I'm excited

969
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 1: to get to know you better and to watch you,

970
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:21,040
Speaker 1: you know, make your mark in the world and get

971
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:23,719
Speaker 1: to know your family and everything else. So again, it's

972
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 1: been a great experience for me. Thank you for coming.

973
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 1: And now I'm turning it over to you for your

974
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 1: last thoughts on any subject you want to talk about.

975
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:36,920
Speaker 5: Well, we have to, you know, make prison reform a

976
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:40,920
Speaker 5: serious topic to be discussed, you know, and we have

977
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:45,400
Speaker 5: to inform the public. Most people that don't have anybody

978
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:49,200
Speaker 5: in prison don't know what's going on in regards to

979
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 5: the unfairness and how the judicial system operates.

980
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:53,560
Speaker 2: You know that.

981
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:58,080
Speaker 5: If you're poor, you know, most of the time, you're

982
00:49:58,120 --> 00:49:59,880
Speaker 5: not going to receive a fair trial, because this is

983
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:01,880
Speaker 5: if it's not designed or equip to give you a

984
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:05,839
Speaker 5: fair trial, you know. And my goal is to reach

985
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 5: out to prosecutors, judges and politicians, you know, to get

986
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:14,879
Speaker 5: them to you know deep you know, reach deep down

987
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:18,759
Speaker 5: into their soul, the greater part of their soul, you know,

988
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:21,839
Speaker 5: and to have this care and this compassion, and it's

989
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:24,800
Speaker 5: concerned for those outside of your group, you know, because

990
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:29,279
Speaker 5: most prosecutors and judges, my experience has been that they

991
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:33,799
Speaker 5: don't really focus or care about those outside of the group,

992
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:36,839
Speaker 5: you know, And you know, I want to be able

993
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:41,440
Speaker 5: to bridge that gap. And because we're all human beings,

994
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:45,160
Speaker 5: you know, and we all make mistakes, you know. But

995
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:47,560
Speaker 5: you know, like I was telling you earlier, like we're

996
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:50,600
Speaker 5: the humanity, you know, and you know, we can speak

997
00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:54,000
Speaker 5: about mass incarceration all day long, you know, until our

998
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:56,160
Speaker 5: eyeballs pop out, but at the end of the day,

999
00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:57,960
Speaker 5: we need to come down with a solution and we

1000
00:50:58,040 --> 00:50:59,080
Speaker 5: need to do something about it.

1001
00:50:59,719 --> 00:50:59,880
Speaker 1: You know.

1002
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:02,680
Speaker 5: Sentencing laws is the worst We have some of the

1003
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:04,960
Speaker 5: worst centence laws in the in the world, in the country,

1004
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:09,200
Speaker 5: especially in New York State, you know, and there's bills

1005
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:13,680
Speaker 5: on the table that should be passed, we should you know, positives.

1006
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:17,160
Speaker 5: You know, the politicians no longer overlook these, uh, these

1007
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:20,320
Speaker 5: bills that's on the table or the problems that's concerning

1008
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:25,480
Speaker 5: you know, minorities, you know. And I hate to make

1009
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:28,239
Speaker 5: it a race issue, you know, you know, I hate

1010
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:32,560
Speaker 5: to make it a race issue. But just imagine this.

1011
00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:36,440
Speaker 5: And when I was speaking with the governor's people or

1012
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:39,759
Speaker 5: two weeks ago, I asked them, I said, can you

1013
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:44,240
Speaker 5: imagine if young black guys were going off to college

1014
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:49,399
Speaker 5: and getting jobs and young white guys were going off

1015
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 5: to prison? Can you imagine this? You can imagine this

1016
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 5: because the problem will be a fixed immediately, you know,

1017
00:51:55,920 --> 00:51:59,600
Speaker 5: and because you know, seventy seventy something percent of minorities

1018
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:02,960
Speaker 5: that's locked up in New York State in these prisons,

1019
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:09,080
Speaker 5: you know, and we just have to you know, Martin

1020
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:11,080
Speaker 5: Luther King said it best, you know, he said, people

1021
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:17,440
Speaker 5: are victims of intellectual and spiritual blindness. They know now

1022
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:21,040
Speaker 5: what they do that even those slave owners that own

1023
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:24,279
Speaker 5: slaves were not evil or bad people. They were just

1024
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:27,480
Speaker 5: motivated by greed, you know. And when I look at,

1025
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:29,800
Speaker 5: you know, what's going on with our prison system, the

1026
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:34,440
Speaker 5: mass incarceration. You know, it's jobs and it's greed, and

1027
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:38,160
Speaker 5: it's a certain class of people that receive these benefits,

1028
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:43,320
Speaker 5: and it's devastating for minorities across the country, you know.

1029
00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:46,000
Speaker 5: So I just think that, you know, as human beings,

1030
00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:50,120
Speaker 5: we need to look at it from that perspective, and

1031
00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:54,520
Speaker 5: it makes the changes fast, not five or ten years

1032
00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:57,480
Speaker 5: from now, but now. And it's only right, you know,

1033
00:52:57,560 --> 00:53:00,120
Speaker 5: when you look at in comparison to other countries. You know,

1034
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:02,799
Speaker 5: we can learn from Norway, you know, we can learn

1035
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:06,200
Speaker 5: from England, you know. Or a ten year sentence over here,

1036
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:10,239
Speaker 5: a lot of cases, it's six months in England, you know,

1037
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:15,000
Speaker 5: and it's not even close. So we know that they're

1038
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:17,680
Speaker 5: not going to change the system as far as getting

1039
00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:20,319
Speaker 5: rid of the judges and the prosecutors, et cetera, et cetera.

1040
00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:22,239
Speaker 5: So guess what we can do here to make it

1041
00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:28,480
Speaker 5: a lot more. Just reduce the censusing laws. That's it.

1042
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:32,120
Speaker 5: Reduce the sentencing laws. The mentality is not going to change,

1043
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:35,399
Speaker 5: you know, you either, you know, you have a good heart,

1044
00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:37,719
Speaker 5: or you have a heart that's not so good, or

1045
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:40,719
Speaker 5: you have a bad heart. So you know, the mentality

1046
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:42,400
Speaker 5: is not going to change. These people in the system

1047
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:44,760
Speaker 5: are already sett in place. You're not going to remove

1048
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:47,360
Speaker 5: these people. You're not going to change the guards, the judges,

1049
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:50,480
Speaker 5: the prosecutors. The only thing you can do to make

1050
00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:54,320
Speaker 5: this right is to reduce these censensing laws across the board.

1051
00:53:55,080 --> 00:53:57,359
Speaker 5: That's it. I don't leave on that note.

1052
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:00,400
Speaker 1: And on that note, I just want to say that

1053
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:03,600
Speaker 1: I've been working with Families Against Mandatory Minimums for twenty

1054
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:07,239
Speaker 1: five years. Right, it's a wonderful organization. I hope people

1055
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:10,080
Speaker 1: will take your words and go and get involved. You

1056
00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:12,680
Speaker 1: can go to f A m M. That's f like

1057
00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:18,160
Speaker 1: Frank a Mmmandatory Minimums dot org or learn more about

1058
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:20,759
Speaker 1: this issue. Let's get this country back on track and

1059
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:22,560
Speaker 1: get back and step with the rest of the Western

1060
00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:24,799
Speaker 1: world and stop treating our people the way the way

1061
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:26,439
Speaker 1: we do it in terms of locking them up forever.

1062
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:28,719
Speaker 5: And let me just say that Jason Wimer thing right

1063
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:32,040
Speaker 5: where I come from. I come from the worst part

1064
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:35,719
Speaker 5: of my city, Buffalo, New York, Okay. Whereas it's an

1065
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:41,600
Speaker 5: economic collapse. There's no jobs, there's poverty, there's drugs, there's

1066
00:54:41,719 --> 00:54:45,759
Speaker 5: legal weapons, you know, and these kids don't feel like

1067
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:49,480
Speaker 5: they have options. And at the end of the day,

1068
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:52,279
Speaker 5: what do you think is going to happen in these

1069
00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:55,160
Speaker 5: type environments. You know, most of these kids are either

1070
00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:56,759
Speaker 5: going to go to jail or they're gonna get killed.

1071
00:54:57,520 --> 00:55:00,520
Speaker 5: And that's just the reality here, you know. So the

1072
00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:04,239
Speaker 5: only way to change that is government funding, you know, job,

1073
00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:10,560
Speaker 5: better jobs, schooling, housing, you know, to these underdeveloped areas

1074
00:55:10,920 --> 00:55:14,480
Speaker 5: where there aren't any factories in the inner city, you know,

1075
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:19,520
Speaker 5: where you know, the globalization and the industrialization that has

1076
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:23,880
Speaker 5: changed the infrastructure of America. You know, we have to

1077
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:26,399
Speaker 5: bring jobs back. You know, when you bring jobs back,

1078
00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:29,439
Speaker 5: you see a whole totally different society as a whole,

1079
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:32,359
Speaker 5: especially in the inner city. That's the main issue. People

1080
00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:36,239
Speaker 5: really want to work, you know, if given the opportunity

1081
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:40,560
Speaker 5: and given a decent job, you know, because the amendmum

1082
00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:44,480
Speaker 5: waste jobs is just not enough to cover people's living expenses.

1083
00:55:44,600 --> 00:55:47,880
Speaker 5: It's just not enough, so people resort to other things.

1084
00:55:48,239 --> 00:55:50,560
Speaker 5: And then you have to look at the the mental

1085
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:53,680
Speaker 5: issues that we're dealing with in America. You know, a

1086
00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:57,719
Speaker 5: person's background, you know, the history of the person. You know,

1087
00:55:57,800 --> 00:55:59,839
Speaker 5: we have to take consideration of all of these things.

1088
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:02,520
Speaker 5: We decided to give a person thirty or forty years,

1089
00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:05,120
Speaker 5: you know. And I think this is where the compassion,

1090
00:56:05,640 --> 00:56:09,200
Speaker 5: the empathy, the sympathy, you know, the love for your

1091
00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:13,279
Speaker 5: fellow human being comes in that all right now, I'm done.

1092
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:18,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, it sounds like you need to be running for office,

1093
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:19,880
Speaker 1: is what you need to be doing, because you have

1094
00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:21,560
Speaker 1: a lot of h I mean, you have a lot

1095
00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:24,360
Speaker 1: of knowledge, a lot of wisdom, and you obviously have

1096
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:27,840
Speaker 1: a great heart and a strong desire to reform the

1097
00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:29,920
Speaker 1: system and help other people in the situation you're in.

1098
00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:31,160
Speaker 5: Oh, can I just say one more thing?

1099
00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:31,480
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1100
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:39,040
Speaker 5: Okay, how can I put this without offending anybody? You know,

1101
00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:43,360
Speaker 5: people always ask me about black lives matter? Okay, And

1102
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:45,800
Speaker 5: my message to a black lives matter would be is

1103
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:51,800
Speaker 5: to not isolate anyone, to not push anyone away, to

1104
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:55,160
Speaker 5: bring everybody on board. Okay. And Martin Luther King was

1105
00:56:55,200 --> 00:57:00,640
Speaker 5: the best that ever did it without without cauedations or

1106
00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:05,080
Speaker 5: white or non blacks, Civil Rights nineteen sixty four Civil

1107
00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:09,600
Speaker 5: Rights Act wouldn't have been passed, you know, without non Whites.

1108
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:13,400
Speaker 5: Barack Obama had never been president, slavery would never end it,

1109
00:57:13,719 --> 00:57:16,400
Speaker 5: you know. So until we put the Eagles aside and

1110
00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:19,200
Speaker 5: learn to work together collectively, you know, we're not going

1111
00:57:19,240 --> 00:57:22,400
Speaker 5: to get anything done. Okay, now I'm finished.

1112
00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:29,160
Speaker 1: We've been Uh what can I even say? All I

1113
00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:33,200
Speaker 1: can say is, Valentino, thank you again for being here.

1114
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:37,880
Speaker 1: You've been listening to Wrongful Conviction with our very very

1115
00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:42,600
Speaker 1: special guest Valentino Dixon today and thank you for thank

1116
00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:57,919
Speaker 1: you for listening. Tune in again next week. Don't forget

1117
00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:01,000
Speaker 1: to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you get your podcasts,

1118
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:04,360
Speaker 1: it really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the

1119
00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:06,920
Speaker 1: Innocence Project and I really hope you'll join me in

1120
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:10,880
Speaker 1: supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future

1121
00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:14,360
Speaker 1: wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot org to learn

1122
00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:17,080
Speaker 1: how to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank

1123
00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:20,560
Speaker 1: our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music

1124
00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:23,320
Speaker 1: in the show is by three time OSCAR nominated composer

1125
00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:26,240
Speaker 1: Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at

1126
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:31,080
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful

1127
00:58:31,120 --> 00:58:33,840
Speaker 1: Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava for

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00:58:33,920 --> 00:58:37,320
Speaker 1: Good podcasts and association with signal company Number one