Speaker 1: On the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have
Speaker 1: women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
Speaker 1: or do they have end individualism the patriarchy? Zef in
Speaker 1: best start changing it with the Bell Cast. Once upon
Speaker 1: a time there were two podcasters. But the story you
Speaker 1: think you know about them is not right. It is
Speaker 1: not accurate. You have some fantastical notion of this story.
Speaker 1: But they're really just two ordinary women hosting a podcast
Speaker 1: and there and they're living, laughing and loving. The end.
Speaker 1: The end, the end. Okay, fine, you know what, there's
Speaker 1: no conflict. That was a great story. I okay, well,
Speaker 1: welcome to the back Cast. I didn't have anything that
Speaker 1: was the best I could come up with on short notice. Honestly, listeners,
Speaker 1: I think it's because we have covered We're having a
Speaker 1: really Cinderella e month, and I feel like we've kind
Speaker 1: of burned out our Cinderella themed intros because over on
Speaker 1: the Matreon we did Ella Enchanted and a Cinderella Story
Speaker 1: for Cinderelluary, and now we're observing Cinderelluary in February with
Speaker 1: an amazing guest. All I had to say, we've been
Speaker 1: introducing Cinderella episodes quite a bit lately. What's your podcasts again?
Speaker 1: So we are the Bechtel Cast. My name is Caitlin Darante.
Speaker 1: My name is Jamie Loftus. And again we're so we're
Speaker 1: just ordinary women, were commoners. In fact, we're just yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: which some people don't care about, right, And we examine
Speaker 1: movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bectel test
Speaker 1: as a jumping off point. Jamie, ye tell me what
Speaker 1: that is, please. While it's an ordinary media metric in
Speaker 1: which uh um we uh it was invented by Holy
Speaker 1: sh it is invented by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes
Speaker 1: called the Bechdel Wallace Test, lots of different permutations of
Speaker 1: the test. The one that we use requires that there
Speaker 1: be two characters of a marginalized gender with names who
Speaker 1: speak to each other about something other than a man
Speaker 1: for two lines of dialogue. You're in Luck today, baby.
Speaker 1: It's a movie that I think we were talking about
Speaker 1: this as we were watching, Caitlin or you mentioned this.
Speaker 1: I think barely passes the reverse Bechtel test. Yeah, there's
Speaker 1: not a lot of men talking to each other in
Speaker 1: this movie. And we love that love so and we
Speaker 1: have Okay, So we have a very not just a
Speaker 1: very popular request, but an extremely popular guest returning to
Speaker 1: continue her mission of covering the best Cinderella adaptations on offer,
Speaker 1: which happened to come out one year apart. Right, Yes,
Speaker 1: and these episodes are coming out almost exactly one year apart.
Speaker 1: Because it's true. Right around a year ago, our guest
Speaker 1: was on for Cinderella, The Brandy and Whitney Houston one.
Speaker 1: She's back for this episode. She is a journalist, actor,
Speaker 1: author of the book The Pretty One on life, pop culture, disability,
Speaker 1: and other Reasons to Fall in Love with Me, and
Speaker 1: she's got a forthcoming children's book called Sam's Super Seats.
Speaker 1: It's Keia Brown. Oh god, Hi, thank you for having
Speaker 1: me back. I'm pretty much you know, force your hand,
Speaker 1: but it was necessary. You manifested it. I did. I
Speaker 1: quote all the YouTubers I watch. I had it on
Speaker 1: my metaphorical vision board. I'm so thrilled that you brought
Speaker 1: us this Cinderella adaptation in particular. We I know how
Speaker 1: passionate you are about it, and it's um when I've
Speaker 1: never seen before. Recovering ever after Today, Ever After parentheses.
Speaker 1: A Cinderella Story, not to be confused with a Cinderella
Speaker 1: Story starring Hillary Duff and Chad Michael Murray. Chad Michael Murray,
Speaker 1: Uh sorry, yeah, I know that this is Like have
Speaker 1: you seen the Hillary Duff Cinderella Story And if so,
Speaker 1: how recently? Oh? I own it? Like I have the DVD.
Speaker 1: I watched it, I'd say at the beginning of no
Speaker 1: at the end of December. I think I watched it
Speaker 1: on Oh my god, so very recently. I didn't seen
Speaker 1: it in over a decade. And I like, what a messy,
Speaker 1: interesting film. So what is your relationship with ever After? Kia? Oh?
Speaker 1: I mean it's a masterpiece. I think it deserved oscars.
Speaker 1: I feel like people need to see the movie, like
Speaker 1: it's one of those movies where it's like, I don't
Speaker 1: care how you feel about anybody in it, you still
Speaker 1: need to watch it. Like it's It's one of those
Speaker 1: films that I think is like the perfect intro for
Speaker 1: people who don't know how they feel about a ram
Speaker 1: com but I want to try them out. I think
Speaker 1: ever After is that movie to give you you know,
Speaker 1: your way in because it's just it's a masterpiece. It's
Speaker 1: a Gateway drug. Yeah, like everybody has a different accent,
Speaker 1: Like everybody in the film has the same accent. Like
Speaker 1: it's just correct, and I think it's like beautifully casted.
Speaker 1: And I just feel like some parts made no sense,
Speaker 1: but it makes all the sense together, like you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. Like ideally you'd be like, why why
Speaker 1: do they all sound so different if they're from the
Speaker 1: same place, But yeah, it's just beautiful. I'm obsessed with it.
Speaker 1: It's spiritually it makes sense. I know, I was. I
Speaker 1: was getting some I wrote down. I was like getting
Speaker 1: some House of Gucci vibes with the accent work, because
Speaker 1: everyone allegedly is from the same place. But but I
Speaker 1: also like how it's like they're in France there in
Speaker 1: Renaissance era France. The only character with the French accent
Speaker 1: is her father, a goost, who's only on screen for
Speaker 1: the first like five minutes, and then everyone else has
Speaker 1: a British accent, which is five that happens in movies
Speaker 1: all the time. I feel like movies that are specifically
Speaker 1: catered to like Western audiences, is like everyone's British, but
Speaker 1: they could be from anywhere in Eastern Europe. But I
Speaker 1: feel like it keeps coming to your attention because they
Speaker 1: keep making fun of England and America while speaking in
Speaker 1: British accents, but they're from France and you're like, huh,
Speaker 1: they also Spain. It's a whole thing. Look. I was confused,
Speaker 1: but also he I totally agree with. It's like, well,
Speaker 1: everything happening is emotionally true, and so you're just like
Speaker 1: on board with the ride, right, You're like, you know what,
Speaker 1: I'll just I'll do this. It's it's fine, whatever is happening,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna let it do it, and it's just we'll
Speaker 1: figure it out at the end. There's enough good stuff
Speaker 1: going on. Yeah. Yeah, So like you know, you get
Speaker 1: past the fact that it's literally nobody talks the same.
Speaker 1: Everybody's just kind of like trying to make it work
Speaker 1: using their like listen, I'm just gonna be charming and
Speaker 1: lovable and you're gonna deal with it. It's fine, we'll
Speaker 1: figure it out and make it happen. I love it
Speaker 1: and it works and it works. Jamie, you said you
Speaker 1: had never seen this before, correct, I hadn't. I was
Speaker 1: kind of surprised that I hadn't. I don't know why
Speaker 1: I hadn't. But I guess that there's just so many
Speaker 1: Cinderella adaptations from this era that you gotta miss one
Speaker 1: of them, and I guess this is this is the
Speaker 1: one that I missed, and I'm bummed out because it's
Speaker 1: so so much better than a lot of the ones
Speaker 1: that I did get very attached to. So I'm I'm
Speaker 1: really thrilled to have seen it now. I think it
Speaker 1: holds up like extremely well. I had a great time
Speaker 1: watching it. And sorry, but Flee is going off today,
Speaker 1: so he's just going to be present in the recording. Um,
Speaker 1: and yeah, I really enjoyed it. Caitlin, had you seen
Speaker 1: this movie before? I forget I had, but I didn't
Speaker 1: grow up with it. I only saw it for the
Speaker 1: first time during the pandemic and it was after Kia
Speaker 1: we recorded Cinderella with you. So I saw it for
Speaker 1: the first time within the past like probably nine months,
Speaker 1: and I can safely say it's my favorite Cinderella adaptation.
Speaker 1: And I watched it like three times to prep for
Speaker 1: this episode, partially because it's a very dense movie in
Speaker 1: a good way, like it just there's a lot happening,
Speaker 1: there's a lot to digest, there's a lot to process,
Speaker 1: but in a way that it's just covering a lot
Speaker 1: of ground, and like there's all this class commentary that
Speaker 1: you're not expecting from a Cinderella movie, even though the
Speaker 1: source material is ripe to make that kind of commentary.
Speaker 1: But most of them don't bother with it. So it's
Speaker 1: just like really cool. And I like the movie a lot.
Speaker 1: I think it's well written. And oh my gosh, Angelica
Speaker 1: Houston's eyebrows and all the work that they're doing, the costumes,
Speaker 1: everything her eyebrowser put to work in this movie. She
Speaker 1: really is like she's using her powers for good and
Speaker 1: this one she and Angelica He's I'm trying to think
Speaker 1: of who belongs in the Eyebrows Hall of Fame. I'm
Speaker 1: going to work on this eyebrows Hall of Fame. Angelica
Speaker 1: Houston's in there, of course, Will Poulter's in there. That's
Speaker 1: as far as I've gotten. Well, it's a good start. Listeners,
Speaker 1: If there's anyone that you're like, oh, this is an
Speaker 1: obvious addition to Eyebrows Hall of Fame, please let me know.
Speaker 1: And by that I mean I think just people who
Speaker 1: really we lead with their eyebrows. It's an unusual acting decision.
Speaker 1: I'll throw um. Well, I don't know if she leads
Speaker 1: with her eyebrows, but Rachel Weiss has very prominent eyebrows.
Speaker 1: Put her in. She's then I'm renting a space it.
Speaker 1: This is an installation of doing um, I love it.
Speaker 1: All right, we'll get there. Let's talk about ever after. Yes,
Speaker 1: here's the recap. We open on an old woman telling
Speaker 1: the brothers grim that their version of Cinderella is inaccurate
Speaker 1: and too fantastical, but she has the real story, which
Speaker 1: is once upon a time again. In Renaissance era France,
Speaker 1: there was a young girl named Danielle de Barberak. She
Speaker 1: and her father, August are very close. He has just
Speaker 1: married a woman, a stepmother to Danielle. She's a baroness
Speaker 1: named Rodmilla de Gent and she is Angelica Houston. She
Speaker 1: has two daughters, Marguerite and Jacqueline. And not long after
Speaker 1: Danielle's new step family moves into their manner, Danielle's father
Speaker 1: dies and she is, of course devastated. Ten years pass
Speaker 1: we then meet the King and Queen of France and
Speaker 1: their son, Prince Henry played by do Gray Scott. Is
Speaker 1: that his name? Who is that not? Sure, okay, I
Speaker 1: don't think so is it what is it? Is it
Speaker 1: doug Ray? Is it doug Ray? Doug Ray would be fun.
Speaker 1: That's like the Margharita vill reed of that of that name.
Speaker 1: How do you say his first name? I assumed it
Speaker 1: was do Gray. Yeah, I don't know why I said Doury.
Speaker 1: Let's just go with is terrible, but hey, it can
Speaker 1: be anything we want. So Prince Henry is leaving his
Speaker 1: tower to escape the pressures of palace life, to quote
Speaker 1: Disney's Aladdin, because he is about to be forced into
Speaker 1: an arranged marriage with the Princess of Spain, which he
Speaker 1: does not want to be in. Meanwhile, Danielle is now
Speaker 1: Drew Barrymore. And then you know, as the Cinderella story goes,
Speaker 1: her stepmother has made her a servant in her own home.
Speaker 1: She's cruel to Danielle. And then one day, as Danielle
Speaker 1: is outside doing her chores, she sees a man stealing
Speaker 1: her father's horse, so she pelts him with apples, but
Speaker 1: then realizes that he's the Prince. He pays her to
Speaker 1: keep quiet about having seen him, and with this money,
Speaker 1: Danielle can buy back quote unquote Maurice one of the
Speaker 1: servants of the house who the baroness had sold to
Speaker 1: pay her taxes. I really enjoyed that. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, this, here's a fantasy I didn't
Speaker 1: know that I had where a man looks ridiculous in
Speaker 1: front of you and then he throws you a bag
Speaker 1: of money and then disappears forever. I was like, that
Speaker 1: actually should be more of a common practice. Right, he's
Speaker 1: doing something bad, you're punishing him. He looks like a fool,
Speaker 1: and then he's like, please don't tell anyone you saw this.
Speaker 1: Here's a bunch of money. I really think that that
Speaker 1: would be a good thing. I mean, and then we
Speaker 1: would we would all own houses, you know. Yeah, we
Speaker 1: would be rich exactly, no debt. We can dream. So
Speaker 1: that morning, as Danielle is serving breakfast, the Baroness is
Speaker 1: especially cruel to Danielle, as is her daughter Marguerite played
Speaker 1: by Megan Dodds, though the other step sister, Acculean, played
Speaker 1: by Melanie Lynsky, seems much more sweet. I love Melanie.
Speaker 1: I didn't know she was in this movie. She's there,
Speaker 1: and her character is similarly bullied by the Baroness and
Speaker 1: Marguerite then we cut back to Prince Henry, who on
Speaker 1: his journey runs into Leonardo da Vinci as one does,
Speaker 1: who is on his way to the castle because he
Speaker 1: was invited to be the artists in residence. Is so wild, right,
Speaker 1: I did not. Okay, if you, like me, hadn't seen
Speaker 1: ever after, are you shocked to hear in this recap
Speaker 1: that Leonardo da Vinci is And then I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: that's an interesting But then he's there for the rest
Speaker 1: of the movie. He's a main character. He's in many
Speaker 1: ways the grandpa that Henry right right, like he's and
Speaker 1: then in some ways, like there's a read of it
Speaker 1: where it's like he's also the fairy Leonardo Nci. Other Yeah,
Speaker 1: he is a fascinating choice. I loved it, And tell
Speaker 1: me your thoughts on this. So we see the scene
Speaker 1: where Danielle is throwing apples at the Prince Leonardo Davincius
Speaker 1: in the movie the da Vinci Code is apple. Uh huh?
Speaker 1: Is the movie trying to tell us something? It is
Speaker 1: trying to tell us don't watch The Da Vinci Code
Speaker 1: when it comes out, like in eight years, absolutely ridiculous
Speaker 1: dogship movies gonna come out and everyone's gonna say it's good,
Speaker 1: and then you're gonna watched three years later and be like,
Speaker 1: the da Vinci code was Apple. I still can't. We
Speaker 1: We covered that on the Matreon like a year ago,
Speaker 1: and I'm still furious about it, like we were all
Speaker 1: the power we gave that man, Dan Brown when the
Speaker 1: da Vinci code was Apple is so absurd. Alfred Molina
Speaker 1: is in it, though, and that's it's one redeeming quality,
Speaker 1: and so we can't write it off entirely. There is
Speaker 1: cultural significance understandable, Yes, okay, So Leonardo da Vinci is
Speaker 1: on his way to the castle, but he is being
Speaker 1: robbed by a band of thieves. Henry recovers the Mona
Speaker 1: Lisa that one of the thieves was trying to steal Prince.
Speaker 1: Henry also goes to return the horse that he had
Speaker 1: stolen from the Baroness to the baroness, and Marguerite then
Speaker 1: tries to dazzle the Prince. She hopes that he will
Speaker 1: fall in love with her and marry her. Meanwhile, Danielle,
Speaker 1: with the help of her friend Gustav, secretly borrows a
Speaker 1: fancy dress so she can impersonate a noblewoman and go
Speaker 1: to the castle to negotiate the buying back of Maurice,
Speaker 1: which she successfully does, something that Prince Henry witnesses, and
Speaker 1: he is very impressed by her passionate speech about class
Speaker 1: and he's like, wow, who are you. What's your name?
Speaker 1: To quote Ella Enchant, You're not like other girls, like
Speaker 1: this movie doesn't like directly say it to you, but
Speaker 1: there but you know, same vibe. He's like, but there's
Speaker 1: more nuance too, because there is. There is. I don't
Speaker 1: want to keep interrupting you, but my one of my
Speaker 1: favorite lines of the entire movie is when he comes
Speaker 1: to return the horse and she says, oh, she's mute,
Speaker 1: and he's like, but she was talking to me. Just
Speaker 1: ride and she was like, oh it comes and girls
Speaker 1: just a pleasant perfect The movie's got jokes, yes, So
Speaker 1: Danielle is trying to brush off Prince Henry and she
Speaker 1: finally tells him that she's a comtesse by the name
Speaker 1: of Nicole de Lancre, which we learned was her mother's name,
Speaker 1: and then Danielle runs off. Danielle and Maurice returned to
Speaker 1: the manor. There is a very nice reunion with them
Speaker 1: and the two servant women that Danielle is very close
Speaker 1: with Paulette and Louise. Then the King, after arguing with
Speaker 1: Henry about this arranged marriage, decides to throw a ball
Speaker 1: in honor of da Vinci, who again is in the
Speaker 1: movie as a character. Um, if Henry can find love
Speaker 1: before the ball, he can marry whoever he falls in
Speaker 1: love with, rather than the Spanish princess. But the ball
Speaker 1: is only five days away. Done right. The Baroness and
Speaker 1: all the ladies of the house get invited to the ball.
Speaker 1: So so now the Baroness is like, okay, this is
Speaker 1: our chance to like get the prince to fall in
Speaker 1: love with Marguerite. She bribes Toby Jones, who is making
Speaker 1: his American film debut in this movie. Yes, he had
Speaker 1: been in a number of like British productions, but this
Speaker 1: is his first role in an American production. I would
Speaker 1: say that Toby Jones is actually doing a lot of
Speaker 1: eyebrow acting and this role also okay, so he's going
Speaker 1: into consideration for my gallery. Amazing. So Toby Jones's character
Speaker 1: works at the castle in some capacity. It's a page okay,
Speaker 1: got it. The Baroness bribes him to feed her information
Speaker 1: about what Prince Henry is doing so that Marguerite can
Speaker 1: basically stalk Prince Henry. Then Danielle finds out about the
Speaker 1: ball when she walks in on Marguerite about to steal
Speaker 1: Danielle's mother's dress and shoes, and the Baroness plays it
Speaker 1: off like, oh, Danielle, you can come to the ball too,
Speaker 1: I guess if you're on your best behavior. Then Danielle
Speaker 1: bumps into Prince Henry again when she's having a little swim.
Speaker 1: I love this something about like, I feel like we've
Speaker 1: discussed the trope. This is not the trope, though, I
Speaker 1: would say this is an inversion of the troupe, which
Speaker 1: didn't exist at the time. So I don't know what
Speaker 1: I'm talking about. But there's been a recent wave of
Speaker 1: coming of age stories where at the peak of the action,
Speaker 1: the peak of her uncertainty, the girl dives into a
Speaker 1: pool and it's like like it happens in Ladybird, it
Speaker 1: happens in eighth Grade, it happens all the recent coming
Speaker 1: of age movies. A girl's jumping into an in ground
Speaker 1: pool and having a moment. This is the opposite. Drew
Speaker 1: Barrymore is having a moment, but she's like floating. She's
Speaker 1: looking at this guy. She's having a nice time, and
Speaker 1: she's like, I don't know. I really liked that moment.
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I want, I want to do that.
Speaker 1: It seems very relaxing. Here was my thought. Leonardo DiCaprio
Speaker 1: watched this movie and he's like, Wow, someone in water
Speaker 1: swimming around, but they're still wearing their clothes. But he's
Speaker 1: already been at it for years at that point, he'd
Speaker 1: been in clothes in water. That's I mean. Titanic probably
Speaker 1: sued her and Romeo all we call this lawyer before
Speaker 1: they left the movie theater, and was like, can I
Speaker 1: sue for this is my intellectual property? Can you copyright
Speaker 1: wet clothes? But it's so great though, because she was
Speaker 1: just like they're minding her business, you know, like relaxing.
Speaker 1: And then you're coming out of the virgie and he's
Speaker 1: just like, hey, looks like rain. He's walking on water
Speaker 1: because he's invented boat shoes or something. Who knows. I
Speaker 1: love every time he's on screen. I'm like, I'm interested.
Speaker 1: Whatever is happening. I'm interested. So Danielle bumps into Prince Henry.
Speaker 1: They have another discussion about class. It becomes kind of flirty.
Speaker 1: They're giggling, but then she has to run off and
Speaker 1: get back home again. Then we meet this wealthy, creepy
Speaker 1: guy Monsieur Le Pew literally love p you like we
Speaker 1: get it pay l Pew Yeah, played by Richard O'Brien
Speaker 1: of Rocky Horror Picture Show Fame. This guy has a
Speaker 1: fixation with Danielle and he wants to marry her, slash
Speaker 1: and trap her basically. Meanwhile, Prince Henry is kind of
Speaker 1: going through the motions of courting Marguerite, but you can
Speaker 1: tell he's not really interested in her because he like
Speaker 1: someone else, surprised it's Danielle. Um. There are a couple
Speaker 1: of instances where Prince Henry almost runs into Danielle when
Speaker 1: she's in her commoner clothes, including when Danielle and Gustav
Speaker 1: are in a field and she's trying to fly one
Speaker 1: of da Vinci's kites, so she has to run back
Speaker 1: to the manner get into a fancy dress just in
Speaker 1: time for Henry to arrive and pay her a visit.
Speaker 1: He then takes her to this huge library. She's dazzled
Speaker 1: by all of the books Fairy Beauty and the Beast.
Speaker 1: He has like a really I don't know why I
Speaker 1: always focus on this in the scene, but like his
Speaker 1: pants is very pronounced or whatever they had, it's very
Speaker 1: pronounced in that scene. That is true of a lot
Speaker 1: of this movie where whatever, like cod pieces they wore
Speaker 1: back in the day. It's very distracting because I'm just
Speaker 1: looking at the the giant bulge in these guys pants.
Speaker 1: But that's yeah, it's like that said, let's not be
Speaker 1: pointing fingers at the movie. Maybe you're just horny. Could
Speaker 1: be sounds like me, okay. So on their way back,
Speaker 1: the carriage breaks down and Danielle and Henry are bombarded
Speaker 1: by the same band of thieves. Then we get that
Speaker 1: moment where the main thief is like, you can take
Speaker 1: anything you can carry, and then Danielle picks up Henry
Speaker 1: and starts to carry him away, and the thieves are
Speaker 1: like feminism alert. I liked it though. Yeah. Then the
Speaker 1: thieves are like, all you goofs, let's be friends, and
Speaker 1: then they all hang out and Danielle and Prince Henry
Speaker 1: finally kiss. Meanwhile, Marguerite and the Baroness are trying to
Speaker 1: get into the Queen's good graces, mostly by using deceit.
Speaker 1: The Baroness uninvites Danielle from the ball after she stays
Speaker 1: out all night, although the Baroness does not know that
Speaker 1: daniel was with the Prince. Then Marguerite says something really
Speaker 1: rude about Danielle's mother, so Danielle punches Marguerite in the face.
Speaker 1: So but then Marguerite retaliates by destroying a beloved book
Speaker 1: of Danielle's that her father gave her. Margite she he
Speaker 1: is sorry extremely. Then the Baroness figures out that the
Speaker 1: contests that the Prince has been spending so much time
Speaker 1: with that all of the courtiers at the castle are
Speaker 1: gossiping about, is in fact Danielle. And then Danielle meets
Speaker 1: up with the Prince again and wants to tell him
Speaker 1: that she's actually a commoner, but she can't bring herself
Speaker 1: to do it. Back at the manner, the Baroness confronts
Speaker 1: Danielle about pretending to be a contest and locks her
Speaker 1: in the pantry. On the eve of the ball, no,
Speaker 1: so it's the ball is about to happen. Henry thinks
Speaker 1: his contest is engaged to a Belgian man, so he's
Speaker 1: about to relent and go through with the engagement to
Speaker 1: the Spanish princess, but Gustav grabs Leonardo da Vinci, who
Speaker 1: breaks Danielle out of the pantry. She shows up at
Speaker 1: the bay sentences, so weird need to draw everyone's attention
Speaker 1: to the fact that the sentences or die. Okay, he is,
Speaker 1: he is like, I needed to happen. I'm gonna do
Speaker 1: what I can. Hope he's a shippers. He believes in
Speaker 1: he does. His portrait at the end was just like
Speaker 1: fan fiction for the time. Yeah, He's like, well, I
Speaker 1: can conjure whatever I want, So I'm going to conjure
Speaker 1: this ship, like incredibly use of power. Why didn't Robert
Speaker 1: Langdon in the Da Vinci Code examine anything about that
Speaker 1: painting and try to figure out Lawrence asking Also, we
Speaker 1: didn't mention this, but in the framework, um, the framework
Speaker 1: of this movie reminded me so much of the beginning
Speaker 1: of A Portrait of a Lady on Fire, because it's
Speaker 1: like a woman looking at longingly at a painting of
Speaker 1: a young girl and being like, it's kind of a
Speaker 1: funny story, actually, and then it flashes very different movies
Speaker 1: unless I'm gidding. Okay, So Danielle shows up at the ball,
Speaker 1: she's in this beautiful gown, she's in wings that Leonardo
Speaker 1: da Vinci crafted for her. Henry is like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: I love you. But then the baroness outs Danielle as
Speaker 1: a servant, and then Henry is like, oh, gross, you're
Speaker 1: a servant. Get away from me, which I was kind
Speaker 1: of I didn't see that coming of him, because usually
Speaker 1: when that happens in these adaptations. I'm not saying that
Speaker 1: as a bad thing. I think we will get there,
Speaker 1: of like why, I thought it was kind of interesting,
Speaker 1: but usually I feel like when it's revealed that she's
Speaker 1: a servant, he's like, but I'm so in love, I
Speaker 1: don't even care. You're not like the other poor people.
Speaker 1: So I think it's interesting that he still has a
Speaker 1: classist reaction and then has to like look withins Yeah,
Speaker 1: I see what you're saying. But that also makes them
Speaker 1: getting back together harder to digest, because he's so awful
Speaker 1: to her in that moment that I'm like, well, I
Speaker 1: don't want her to take him back. With ten minutes
Speaker 1: left on the run time, you're just like, oh, he's
Speaker 1: like this class is this late in the movie? Yikes?
Speaker 1: But yeah, I don't know, I think there's a discussion. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I literally I feel like I have blinders on. Right
Speaker 1: comes through that because he's so terrible to her, But
Speaker 1: I just get so excited because I think, because spoiler
Speaker 1: that she saved herself, right, yes, and then he's there
Speaker 1: and I'm like, she did on her own, but like,
Speaker 1: also get together because I'm already interested, so allowed to
Speaker 1: do this. But I'm like, Okay, you were really bad there.
Speaker 1: I hope you at least apologize directly, for which we
Speaker 1: do see him do, and then he also needs to
Speaker 1: continue to apologize and make amends for a long time
Speaker 1: after that. Yeah, I agree, Um, okay, So he's like, oh, gross,
Speaker 1: get away from me. Danielle runs off, and then Da
Speaker 1: Vinci goes to Henry and he's like, you're a fool
Speaker 1: and an asshole and you don't deserve her. Danielle back
Speaker 1: at the manner she's humiliated and has no choice but
Speaker 1: to resume being a servant to the Baroness. That is,
Speaker 1: until the Baroness sells Danielle to that creepy guy, Monsieur
Speaker 1: the Pew so gross, horrible, but he says to her
Speaker 1: at some point in the movie, like you maybe three
Speaker 1: times or two times my junior child child. But you
Speaker 1: know I can, I can, Like he says, I'm well
Speaker 1: endowed you and I can train you like a horse
Speaker 1: or something. And I'm like, you just called her a
Speaker 1: child and then also said you wanted her in the
Speaker 1: exact disgusting it's intent like, and I feel like it
Speaker 1: is kind of an example of like that we had
Speaker 1: a name, this trope of like one man being so
Speaker 1: egregiously evil that a guy that maybe isn't so great
Speaker 1: looks so good by comparison, that we're not going to
Speaker 1: examine the things that are, you know, maybe the deep
Speaker 1: seated classism that he just yelled in your face. Well,
Speaker 1: at least he's not Peppe Lapu, right, Like, at least
Speaker 1: he's not threatening to rape you, right right. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think it is like a trope that is grounded
Speaker 1: in like the idea that two things can't be true
Speaker 1: at the same time, where it's like there's only one
Speaker 1: kind of bad man and it's the worst man imaginable, right, yes, bad.
Speaker 1: So meanwhile, Henry is about to get married to the
Speaker 1: Spanish princess, something that she also very much does not want.
Speaker 1: So then Henry is like you know what, screw this,
Speaker 1: We're not doing this. He releases her, and then he
Speaker 1: sets off to find Danielle, who, meanwhile, like you said,
Speaker 1: he manages to escape from Lipu by grabbing his ward
Speaker 1: and daggers and being like, let me go or I
Speaker 1: will gut you. She then leaves the castle and who
Speaker 1: is there but Prince Henry, and he apologizes and proposes
Speaker 1: marriage and she says yes. Then we see the Baroness
Speaker 1: and Marguerite get their come up and basically they're invited
Speaker 1: to the castle thinking that the prince will propose to Marguerite,
Speaker 1: but instead they see that Danielle is the princes his wife,
Speaker 1: and the Baroness and Marguerite are shown the same mercy
Speaker 1: that they showed to Danielle a k A. They are
Speaker 1: turned into servants at the castle, and then Danielle and
Speaker 1: Henry live happily ever after. And the point is they lived.
Speaker 1: I just need to take a second because the reveal
Speaker 1: that they're married and he's like, Marguerite, I do believe
Speaker 1: you've met my wife. She said about okay, and then
Speaker 1: and then I just it's my favorite scene in the
Speaker 1: entire movie, because Angelica Houston is acted down okay, and
Speaker 1: she's like and and then the queen is like, oh, like,
Speaker 1: if there's nobody here to defend you, like, it's over
Speaker 1: for you girl. And then she's like, oh, everybody's out
Speaker 1: of town, which great. Un She's like, She's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: there there must be a lot of people out of town.
Speaker 1: And then here comes Danielle and she's like, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: let you know that I'm never gonna thank of you
Speaker 1: again at for this moment, but you won't think of
Speaker 1: me every day for the rest of your life. What
Speaker 1: to read? First of all, he read her hard Miranda's
Speaker 1: and then she was like how long will that be?
Speaker 1: And Danielle was like, I'm just gonna give you the
Speaker 1: same creement that you gave me. And it is just
Speaker 1: I just love this scene so much that I feel
Speaker 1: like I felt I felt justified, like he was Melanie
Speaker 1: Lindskey over here, just minding her business, not in it
Speaker 1: at all. And then like the two most terrible people
Speaker 1: were not the most but like two of the terrible
Speaker 1: people to Danielle actually get what they deserve. Although personally
Speaker 1: I wanted to see them fist fight. I wanted Danielle
Speaker 1: to fist fight bargay like that would have been perfect,
Speaker 1: it would have fit right, like when she punched her.
Speaker 1: I think the first time that I watched it as
Speaker 1: a kid, I like we wound it so many times
Speaker 1: because even then I was like, yes, she deserved what
Speaker 1: was coming to her. She really did. Yeah, that wholes
Speaker 1: like the baroness gets her come up and chunk at
Speaker 1: the end, is so satisfying. Yeah, my god, I think
Speaker 1: maybe the most satisfying of the adaptations that Yeah covered,
Speaker 1: because it's like a weighted blanket. I feel like I'm like, yes,
Speaker 1: I want to rest here for a while. You see
Speaker 1: what happened, because it's like wild. I think for me
Speaker 1: that they do that is really smart is they have
Speaker 1: small moments where they're trying to like humanize her, you know,
Speaker 1: when she's like kind to Danielle, but like for two
Speaker 1: seconds and then it's over. I think it's so smart
Speaker 1: because then they're like, oh, no, she kind of is
Speaker 1: nice to her, but not really because and I think
Speaker 1: it is because when the dad died, he turned to
Speaker 1: daniel and said I love you, and she was sick
Speaker 1: about it and had been sick about it ever since. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I do like the way that the stepmother character. Her
Speaker 1: behavior is contextualized more than in other adaptations. I think
Speaker 1: that was like really effective, but still doesn't like I
Speaker 1: like the idea that let's like they contextualize her behavior,
Speaker 1: but they don't excuse it, which I feel like it's
Speaker 1: a tough needle to thread that this movie does really well.
Speaker 1: For sure, Let's take a quick break and then we'll
Speaker 1: come back and discuss it further and we're back, all right,
Speaker 1: we actually we start there's so much to talk about
Speaker 1: with this movie. Well, we were just talking about Angeloicia
Speaker 1: Houston's stepmother arc. Maybe maybe we can start there, because
Speaker 1: I think that it's a really interesting approach to the character.
Speaker 1: That again, it's like so much of what this movie
Speaker 1: is doing seems like so built into the story that
Speaker 1: it doesn't feel forced, and it makes it even more
Speaker 1: kind of like why don't more adaptations attempt this? Because
Speaker 1: we see that I mean in terms of like what
Speaker 1: the stepmother's predicament is, I feel like sometimes a Cinderella story, unfortunately,
Speaker 1: is an example of this. Her predicament is presented very
Speaker 1: much in a void and there's no context to like
Speaker 1: why is she mean, what is her social status? Like what?
Speaker 1: Or like and so because of the era, like the
Speaker 1: time and place this movie takes place in it, it's
Speaker 1: very very clear that like this is her option. Marrying
Speaker 1: Danielle's dad is her way to secure a life for
Speaker 1: her and her daughters. And it seems to me, I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm curious of what you both think. It felt like
Speaker 1: to me that the context for why she is so
Speaker 1: cruel to Danielle in this adaptation is that, like, it
Speaker 1: almost seems like Danielle is like this triggering presence for
Speaker 1: her that she wants to like suppress, and she she's
Speaker 1: so upset that she's kind of like when when her
Speaker 1: husband dies. She views this as like, well, now I'm
Speaker 1: stuck here and now I'm fucked, and I'm going to
Speaker 1: punish any reminder of the fact that this is how
Speaker 1: I feel, and so she kind of weaponizes those feelings
Speaker 1: against Danielle. Yeah, yeah, I see that as well. I
Speaker 1: think the thing that I find really interesting is the
Speaker 1: fact that she seemed to genuinely like him, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: Because oftentimes in these adaptations, the stop mom doesn't seem
Speaker 1: to care that much about the person who died, you know,
Speaker 1: And I think in this one, you get little pieces
Speaker 1: of that, which is a nice juxtaposition between the King
Speaker 1: and the Queen Andy and these parents who don't seem
Speaker 1: to like each other at all. Whereas, like you see
Speaker 1: in the very beginning when when the dad dies, she's like, well,
Speaker 1: don't leave me here, like they're they're flirty like before
Speaker 1: he gets to leave there like flirting with each other,
Speaker 1: and and like he leaves and she's devastated. But I
Speaker 1: think because she takes it out on Danielle, because Danielle
Speaker 1: was the last person he said I love you too.
Speaker 1: It's sort of the gates that love that she has,
Speaker 1: you know, but it's me that it's there. It's just
Speaker 1: like none of it matters because you're trashed this little
Speaker 1: girl who was just like eight, You're just mean her immediately.
Speaker 1: It's I think it's like really really well done of
Speaker 1: like yeah, like you are. You do get why she
Speaker 1: is upset, but like every choice she makes is cruel
Speaker 1: and wrong, and I don't know, I's like that's more
Speaker 1: nuanced than you get in most of these adaptations. I really,
Speaker 1: I really liked it. Also, I was kind of curious
Speaker 1: of like there's always this I don't know, and I
Speaker 1: guess that no real Cinderella story like really takes a
Speaker 1: look at this. But I mean, we're at the beginning
Speaker 1: of every Cinderella adaptation, we're presented with like two sets
Speaker 1: of single parents, and it's always implied like the single
Speaker 1: dad is doing an amazing job. Um, which I think
Speaker 1: is cool in one way because there's not a lot
Speaker 1: of single dads in movies at all, especially single dads
Speaker 1: of daughters. But then but then on the other hand,
Speaker 1: it's like presenting a single moms as like a single
Speaker 1: mom will raise her daughters to be vain and social
Speaker 1: climate and she sucks. I don't really, I mean, that's
Speaker 1: just something. Maybe it's just because we've watched so many
Speaker 1: of these so close together, but yeah, I'm sure there
Speaker 1: are there are plenty of exceptions to that, but yeah,
Speaker 1: for sure. But it is something that the other Cinderella adaptation,
Speaker 1: including the two we covered on the Matreon, they do
Speaker 1: this thing where their context or their explanation for why
Speaker 1: the stepmother is awful is that she's extremely vain and
Speaker 1: obsessed with looking young and jealous of Cinderella and her
Speaker 1: youthful beauty because that's just how older women are, rather
Speaker 1: than examining anything more thoughtfully than that, and this movie
Speaker 1: doesn't take that route, which I appreciated. Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I like there's I think it is partly Angelica Houston's
Speaker 1: performance and her amazing eyebrow acting and just like the
Speaker 1: presence she commands on screen and then also do yeah,
Speaker 1: just the way that character was written worked way better
Speaker 1: for me than most other Cinderella adaptations. The thing that
Speaker 1: I think is interesting why there when she calls Danielle
Speaker 1: into her room to brush her hair, she talks about
Speaker 1: like how her mom made her brush her hair a
Speaker 1: bunch of times, and like there's a hint of like,
Speaker 1: oh my mom never thought I was good enough, And
Speaker 1: it's like you're pouring that onto Danielle, who was literally
Speaker 1: again just a child when you met her. And I
Speaker 1: just find it to be interesting because angelo Ka Houston
Speaker 1: really does give this character depth in a way that
Speaker 1: we haven't seen even in you know, My Beloved Rogers
Speaker 1: and Hamberstein Cinderella. The most we got out of Bernard
Speaker 1: that Peters is a nice song, you know, but I
Speaker 1: think it's a really good song, you know. Don't get
Speaker 1: me wrong, but I do find that, like Drew did
Speaker 1: a really good job I don't know who wrote it,
Speaker 1: but I know that she that was like one of
Speaker 1: her first films for the production, but she did a
Speaker 1: really good job of like humanizing her in a way.
Speaker 1: And I remember reading an interview where she said people
Speaker 1: kept calling her not to do it. They didn't want
Speaker 1: her to do the movie at all. They said that
Speaker 1: it was a really bad were move, and I was like, well,
Speaker 1: thank god you didn't listen. But yeah, I just I
Speaker 1: think that this movie is really smart because it gives
Speaker 1: depth to characters that we are at this point I've
Speaker 1: already seen as like caricatures of themselves really and of
Speaker 1: this idea of a person, and it lets them just
Speaker 1: be people. And that spans across basically all the major characters.
Speaker 1: The last thing I wanted to say about the Baroness
Speaker 1: was that I also found it fascinating that she targets
Speaker 1: her cruelness depending on who she's talking to and based
Speaker 1: on how she perceives that person can elevate her status
Speaker 1: or elevate her situation in some way. Because she's like
Speaker 1: very supportive of her daughter Marguerite, because she perceives Marguerite
Speaker 1: as someone who's gonna help her move to the palace
Speaker 1: or just like she's whatever, yeah, Whereas the Baroness is
Speaker 1: extremely cruel to her other daughter, Jacqueline Melanie Lynsky's character.
Speaker 1: One thing that she continually does to her is like
Speaker 1: body and food shame her, where she tries to restrict
Speaker 1: Jacqueline's food intake. She implies that she is not pretty
Speaker 1: enough to warrant the attention of this is someone like
Speaker 1: a prince um. She says that she's only going to
Speaker 1: the ball for the food. And I appreciate that the
Speaker 1: movie frames this behavior as despicable, which is something that
Speaker 1: most movies of the late nineties weren't doing, because so
Speaker 1: much of the media from this era is like very
Speaker 1: body shamy, very fat shamy, not at all challenging that
Speaker 1: type of normative thinking when it comes to bodies. It
Speaker 1: was just like a given, yeah, I did, yeah, my
Speaker 1: last that on on the Baroness, and then maybe we
Speaker 1: should just go into the step sister stuff as well
Speaker 1: while we're in this area. But I again, just with
Speaker 1: the amount of like nuance and subtlety that is very
Speaker 1: effortless to this movie, it doesn't feel like you're being
Speaker 1: you know, bashed over the head with it at all.
Speaker 1: Which sometimes updated fairy tales can feel and this one doesn't.
Speaker 1: Um but I like that. Yeah, I mean going back
Speaker 1: to what you were saying, Kia about the Baroness implying
Speaker 1: that her mother was cruel to her, and like getting
Speaker 1: that context and seeing that Danielle you know, that registers
Speaker 1: for her and she knows like okay, like maybe there's
Speaker 1: a moment of empathy, but also in that same moment,
Speaker 1: the Baroness is you know, weaponizing that same behavior against Danielle,
Speaker 1: and I like that. In the end, there's that other
Speaker 1: scene where you know, it's whatever very end of second act,
Speaker 1: all is lost, but Danielle like turns to the Baroness
Speaker 1: and it's like did you ever love me at all?
Speaker 1: And like it makes sense. I feel like sometimes with
Speaker 1: like these like feminist updates of classic characters, they're not
Speaker 1: allowed those moments of like emotional vulnerability that is so
Speaker 1: human and it's like it's almost like they're emotionally marry
Speaker 1: suing where they're like, yeah, I can experience all the
Speaker 1: trauma in the world and like it doesn't affect at all,
Speaker 1: or it's like in that moment, it's it's a small thing,
Speaker 1: but it's like Yeah, of course Danielle would feel like this.
Speaker 1: She's lived with this woman for you know, decades and
Speaker 1: never experienced affection, and of course that's traumatic, and of course,
Speaker 1: you know, deep down a lot of people would want
Speaker 1: to believe that there was some love there and and
Speaker 1: I like that all of that happens, and Danielle does
Speaker 1: seem to understand the context of her stepmother and still
Speaker 1: is like, well, I don't forgive you. Like that's another
Speaker 1: huge thing that I feel. I feel like, I mean,
Speaker 1: it's very character to character, and the idea of forgiveness
Speaker 1: is so you know, there's just so much to talk about,
Speaker 1: and I feel like there's ways you can forgive people
Speaker 1: that are good for your mental health. But it's like
Speaker 1: Danielle's like, no, I don't forgive you. It's like, I
Speaker 1: don't even do that to the brig. Yeah, it's agree
Speaker 1: because I think even in that moment that you're talking
Speaker 1: about specifically where she asks her like, was there ever
Speaker 1: a moment you can see something this is Angelica Houston
Speaker 1: again just being so good at her job, where like
Speaker 1: something in her eye changes for like a millisecond and
Speaker 1: then she's like no, I mean, how can anybody a
Speaker 1: pebble in their shoe, but it's like for a millisecond
Speaker 1: you can tell she like even when and she does it.
Speaker 1: She does it twice in the movie, I think, once
Speaker 1: in that scene where like she like looks at her
Speaker 1: like kind of but also, I'm not gonna let you
Speaker 1: know that before she tells her about the pebble on
Speaker 1: the shoe, and then again when she's brushing her hair
Speaker 1: and she's like, come here, child, like, let me look
Speaker 1: at you. And she looks at her and her face
Speaker 1: softens for like again a tenth of a second, and
Speaker 1: then she's right back to being horrible. Yeah. Oh that
Speaker 1: was so effective to me because she's like, oh, you
Speaker 1: have so much of your father in you. And Danielle
Speaker 1: is very clearly touched by this and takes it as
Speaker 1: a as a great compliment. And as soon as the
Speaker 1: Baroness realizes that that she has done something to like
Speaker 1: accidentally compliment Danielle, she does a one eighty and she's like, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's because you have such masculine features, and you know,
Speaker 1: you being raised by a man made it so that
Speaker 1: you're built for hard labor and all this mean stuff.
Speaker 1: Just like anytime she starts to have a feeling, she
Speaker 1: turns mean and like goes to the extent of like
Speaker 1: I'm having a feeling and so I'm going to sell
Speaker 1: you to a molester, Like she is truly evil, And
Speaker 1: I liked. I do like that that the movie doesn't
Speaker 1: shy away from like how awful she can be. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I love that. The whole thing was like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, you ride to the Queen about Danielle being
Speaker 1: like so Badariel being shipped away that was the big
Speaker 1: egregious name for them. It's like you lied to the
Speaker 1: queen somebody like safer from being shipped after the inher
Speaker 1: does And I'm like, she's done so much worse than
Speaker 1: lie to you like about daniel being shipped away, like
Speaker 1: she beat her, Like they don't show it on the
Speaker 1: on the version where they're streaming, they skip past it,
Speaker 1: But on the DVD, if I can find it, they
Speaker 1: actually like you can hear her being beat oh, because
Speaker 1: you see the aftermath of her getting lashed and like
Speaker 1: the wounds that she has on her back. So in
Speaker 1: the DVD version you actually see that. You can't see it,
Speaker 1: but you hear you hear Oh, I see okay, here yeah,
Speaker 1: which makes it even worse. Yes, she's wrong. This movie
Speaker 1: goes there, much like Degrassive it goes there. Sorry, I
Speaker 1: love it was beautiful to all the Degraphy fans. I
Speaker 1: remember that tagline from two thousand and five six to Gussie,
Speaker 1: it goes there. Um, okay, let's get because we're kind
Speaker 1: of in this area of the story. Anyways, let's talk
Speaker 1: a little bit about Marguerite and Jacqueline. I don't really
Speaker 1: know how much there is to talk about Margarite. Like,
Speaker 1: I think it's interesting that in all of these adaptations
Speaker 1: there's always like the alpha stepsister and the beta step
Speaker 1: sister as it's presented to us and Marguerite. I think
Speaker 1: that what is like more clearly telegraphed in Marguerite's case
Speaker 1: is that, yes, she is the favorite daughter by her mother.
Speaker 1: But like you were saying, Caitlin, it's just because her
Speaker 1: mother sees her as a means to an end. It's
Speaker 1: not actually like I love my daughter so much and
Speaker 1: I hate my other daughter. Like it's clear that the
Speaker 1: Baroness is going to be kind to anyone she finds useful,
Speaker 1: and Marguerite is the daughter she finds useful, and you
Speaker 1: can already see like there's just like this wild generational
Speaker 1: trauma story going on with them, because you can already
Speaker 1: see Marguerite taking on those negative qualities that her mother
Speaker 1: has to get through her life. So I have so
Speaker 1: many thoughts. Okay, so Marguerite the acter she plays Marguerite,
Speaker 1: I wish her the best in life. I hope that
Speaker 1: she's prospering. But Marguerite the character, oh, I want the worst.
Speaker 1: I have never in my life. I was like, if
Speaker 1: I could jump into this TV and cite her, I
Speaker 1: would do it because I find that like the thing
Speaker 1: that I find the most interesting about the two step
Speaker 1: sisters is that the Baroness looks the most like Jacky
Speaker 1: right to me, it looks nothing like Marguerite. And I
Speaker 1: think that's on purpose, because I think it's basically a
Speaker 1: commentary about how the aaronas wants to be so far
Speaker 1: removed from herself that it makes sense that she has
Speaker 1: this idea of who she should be and what her
Speaker 1: life should be like. And Marguarite is closer to that
Speaker 1: than Jacqueline is, because she's sort of the like Jacqueline
Speaker 1: is sort of a mirror to her physically of what
Speaker 1: like she is now and Marguarite can be the thing
Speaker 1: that she's after. But I do find very interesting is
Speaker 1: the relationship between Marguarite and Jacqueline. Like Margarite is so
Speaker 1: nasty to her in like small ways, you know, not
Speaker 1: only is the mom calling her fat and saying she's
Speaker 1: only there for the food, Margarite is laughing and like
Speaker 1: going along with it. And there's also a point in
Speaker 1: the movie that I don't think we talked about where
Speaker 1: Danielle is like hungover and the mom's like, go make
Speaker 1: us breakfast or eggs or whatever. It was like approach
Speaker 1: take something, and she's like, you have two hands, go
Speaker 1: do it yourself. And they made Jacqueline go do it.
Speaker 1: She's like, oh, go boil the water like you though,
Speaker 1: And Jack was like, so what about Danielle, which I
Speaker 1: think was like a moment for her, But I still
Speaker 1: love her to pieces because I think she showed up
Speaker 1: for her what she needed to. But I also find
Speaker 1: it really funny how immediately with Danielle was like I'm
Speaker 1: not getting up, don't make me do it. She was
Speaker 1: like okay, well, Jaquil, and you know what you have
Speaker 1: to do. I get in the kitchen, you know, go
Speaker 1: brow the water. And I just think that that's so
Speaker 1: funny because even though that it's often the tropher is
Speaker 1: like there's one good daughter and one bad one. It's
Speaker 1: interesting how immediately she's treated as close to Danielle as
Speaker 1: possible when Danielle was like predisposed or not there or something,
Speaker 1: which I think also bonds both Danielle and Jacqueline. I
Speaker 1: love every word of that's honestly, I hadn't considered the
Speaker 1: specific but but it totally tracks like I hadn't considered
Speaker 1: why the Baroness is so particularly aggressive to its Jacqueline,
Speaker 1: and that totally scans for me as to like why
Speaker 1: she would turn on And I think if that's something
Speaker 1: that happens in real life all the time, where it's like,
Speaker 1: you know, emotionally unhealthy people tend to lash out against
Speaker 1: people who remind them of themselves if they're a self
Speaker 1: clathing person, which clearly the Baroness has a lot of
Speaker 1: issues with. I mean, you know, it's medieval France and
Speaker 1: they're not going to therapy is so all those emotions
Speaker 1: are just getting sharp blasted out at every other woman
Speaker 1: in the area. Um. I believe that's a medical term
Speaker 1: and Jacqueline is getting I mean, Danielle and Jacqueline are
Speaker 1: getting sprayed with the most shart. So with that in mind, uh,
Speaker 1: but I do like and and this is the only
Speaker 1: I think. Let me know if I'm missing here, but
Speaker 1: I think that this is the only adaptation that gives
Speaker 1: the quote un quote beta sister a story and and
Speaker 1: not just a story, but an arc that ends with
Speaker 1: her better off and like gone on this emotional journey
Speaker 1: where she's rejecting, you know, the cruel behavior of her
Speaker 1: own mother. I thought it was really great, and it's
Speaker 1: like I feel like it's also I don't know, I mean,
Speaker 1: I feel like it's implied at the end of like, well,
Speaker 1: Jacqueline and Danielle aren't going to be like best friends,
Speaker 1: but they're not. And but they're not gonna like hang
Speaker 1: out because why you know, right, Like I wouldn't want
Speaker 1: to hear out what they're either. But I feel like
Speaker 1: they set it up really well because Jacqueline is the
Speaker 1: one that tends to her after her mom beats her.
Speaker 1: Jacqueline is the one that's like, I'll never forget how
Speaker 1: Marguerite's legs throw up between like that, and they're like laughing. Well,
Speaker 1: she's taking care of her. And I think that, aside
Speaker 1: from the two older lady servants that Dannielle was closest to,
Speaker 1: no one takes care of Daniel right aside from those
Speaker 1: two and like goose stuff. And I think it was
Speaker 1: really smart of them to do that so that by
Speaker 1: the time we get to a place where Okay, we're
Speaker 1: gonna punish Marguerite and the baroness, like what do we
Speaker 1: do with Jacqueline, It's like, oh, it makes sense to
Speaker 1: just pop her off on the side. She has her
Speaker 1: own little maybe romance. There's a lot of nods to that,
Speaker 1: which I thought was really sweet. I thought I thought
Speaker 1: that was fun. And I just think that I think
Speaker 1: that their relationship to each other is more like, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna let you go of your life, have your fun
Speaker 1: with you know, my man's right hand man, do whatever
Speaker 1: y'all want. I'm just gonna go live happily and right after.
Speaker 1: But your sister and your mom are not going to
Speaker 1: get the same treatment. Yeah, I both step sisters. The
Speaker 1: way they're characterized, I thought was really well done in
Speaker 1: the sense that Marguerite was the type of shitty person
Speaker 1: that that is who benefits from her mother favoring her
Speaker 1: over her sister, and a shitty person will revel in
Speaker 1: that rather than make any attempt to like stand up
Speaker 1: for her sister who's being abused and mistreated. And that's
Speaker 1: just the type of person that Marguerite is, And there
Speaker 1: are plenty of people like that in real life, so
Speaker 1: it doesn't seem like a stretcher. Doesn't seem like, you know, oh,
Speaker 1: no one is this cruel in real life. These people exist.
Speaker 1: And then with Jacqueline, she is used to this upscale
Speaker 1: life of coming from noble blood, so she's still like
Speaker 1: in a station above Danielle, but is being similarly mistreated
Speaker 1: by her mother and her sister, and we just kind
Speaker 1: of see how that is chipping away at her. So
Speaker 1: even though like, I don't know, like that worked for
Speaker 1: me as far as she isn't as quick to like
Speaker 1: jump to Danielle's defense at first, because again she's also
Speaker 1: benefiting from this life of more of like higher class
Speaker 1: and noble blood and all of that stuff. But then
Speaker 1: as time goes on and like the way she's mistreated
Speaker 1: makes her kind of realize, oh, I'm actually royal blood.
Speaker 1: Wise i am quote unquote elevated above Danielle. But as
Speaker 1: far as like the way I'm treated, we're basically peers.
Speaker 1: So it actually makes sense for me to ally myself
Speaker 1: with Danielle and try to like get out of this
Speaker 1: abusive situation. And this is all done with like relatively
Speaker 1: little screen time to like I feel like it's like
Speaker 1: she's characterized so effectively and such. I feel like at
Speaker 1: the time we've spent talking about her is maybe the
Speaker 1: amount of time she's on screen for the whole Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, and it's like whatever that I I really
Speaker 1: enjoy the like the couple of you know, nineties movie
Speaker 1: one liners you get towards the end of the movie
Speaker 1: and she gets one of them where you know, the
Speaker 1: Baroness turns to her and then you Jacqueline says, I'm
Speaker 1: only here for the food, and then you're like, okay.
Speaker 1: So she got her mic drop moment. Danielle gets her
Speaker 1: mic drop moment, like everyone's dropping their little microphones against
Speaker 1: the baroness and then the baroness like the floor opens
Speaker 1: up and she goes to work, you know, for the
Speaker 1: first time in her life. Um, but it's satisfied. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I thought, like, there's so much more to the stepmother
Speaker 1: and stepsisters in a way that is effective and also
Speaker 1: doesn't let them get away with their ship, which not
Speaker 1: easy to do. I thought it was awesome. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think so too. And I feel like a lot
Speaker 1: of movies in general, but a lot of Cinderella movies
Speaker 1: now are like we have to redeem you know, the
Speaker 1: stepmom and make them like likable and and I'm like,
Speaker 1: I like, I I prefer when we have movies in
Speaker 1: general where like you just like it would be bad
Speaker 1: without having to feel like, oh, let me redeem them,
Speaker 1: Like I think I felt that way about the movie Coulola.
Speaker 1: I felt like we didn't really need to. We don't
Speaker 1: need to redeem her. And I think that like, just
Speaker 1: let her be bad, like either way, Like I'm sorry
Speaker 1: that her mom died because dalmatians attacked her, like were
Speaker 1: winning because she didn't get out of the way. But
Speaker 1: that happens, I haven't seen it. That's so goofy. We
Speaker 1: don't want to swallow you. Then I'm sorry. No, that
Speaker 1: just makes me laugh so much? Is it? Is? It
Speaker 1: like there's and they're serious about it. They're like, she
Speaker 1: has dalmatian related trauma. They're so serious about it like
Speaker 1: maybe the most serious so funn I mean, when someone
Speaker 1: goes that one to one, I'm like, you know what,
Speaker 1: I guess I gotta hand it to you because that
Speaker 1: is like a level of ridiculous that wouldn't have even
Speaker 1: occurred to me, right, And so I like, yeah, I
Speaker 1: think about what you said Kate were where it's like
Speaker 1: they're allowed to be evil without Daniel being like, well,
Speaker 1: I forgive you, you know, because life's too short, Like yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe it is, but just let people be like, but
Speaker 1: it's okay for people to not forgive someone who has
Speaker 1: hurt them as much as and then this is like
Speaker 1: years and years and years are built that hurt you.
Speaker 1: And they're like, no, you don't have to forgive her.
Speaker 1: You don't have to be like, oh, you know, she
Speaker 1: learned her lesson and blah blah blah blah blah. But
Speaker 1: also I think that something really important to note about
Speaker 1: Margarite is that immediately Margorite was like, what have you done? Mother?
Speaker 1: Like I can't believe you. The queen looks like, you know,
Speaker 1: like you're gonna be shaped up for the Americas, Like
Speaker 1: I can't believe that you all did this to this girl.
Speaker 1: And to like me specifically the Queen speaking of course,
Speaker 1: and it's just like so funny to me because it
Speaker 1: does show how different Margarite is to Jacquillen, where it's like,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna immediately turn on you and hopes that something
Speaker 1: is going to happen that will be better for me,
Speaker 1: and then they end up in the same spot and
Speaker 1: the Baroness is like, I'm royalty or something. When she
Speaker 1: tells her to go do something, I'm management. Yeah, management,
Speaker 1: that's what she's like. No, you're not. You're the same
Speaker 1: as me, nobody. It's just really smartly done. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: love it. Let's take a quick break and then we'll
Speaker 1: come back for a more discussion and we're back. Should
Speaker 1: we get into Danielle. Let's talk about Danielle. Let's just
Speaker 1: do it. The first thing that stood out to I mean,
Speaker 1: there's a lot we've we've obviously been discussing her the
Speaker 1: whole episode, but something that I again just like adaptation
Speaker 1: wise and character wise. I really like that this script
Speaker 1: updates the Cinderella character to like she saves herself. She
Speaker 1: is I think, like very intelligent and capable in a
Speaker 1: way that isn't Mary suing her we don't see her
Speaker 1: suddenly knowing how to sword fight when there'd be no
Speaker 1: reason that you know how to sword fight stuff like that.
Speaker 1: But also, like, something that is so tricky about adapting
Speaker 1: this fairy tale is that there's a core gentleness and
Speaker 1: kindness attributed to Cinderella that I think is a little
Speaker 1: at odds with how a lot of nineties heroines were presented.
Speaker 1: But this movie like has it all of the ways
Speaker 1: in a way that I thought was like really unusual
Speaker 1: and cool. Of like, Danielle is very motivated, she's very empathetic,
Speaker 1: she is very active, she liberates herself, but also she
Speaker 1: has a very patient and gentle and kind nature but
Speaker 1: is also strong. I just thought it was like really
Speaker 1: cool and well done, and you just don't see a
Speaker 1: lot of characters that can embody all of those things
Speaker 1: when there's so many people who are like totally yeah.
Speaker 1: And I also really really love her relationship with but
Speaker 1: I think the addition of that is so special because
Speaker 1: she's like, first of all, here's this man, no interest,
Speaker 1: we have no there's no tension between us. It's romantic.
Speaker 1: He's just my friend. I can like talk to him
Speaker 1: about this prince. But also you know, tease him about
Speaker 1: like you know, beating him up or beating him at games,
Speaker 1: and like even when they're like their kids. And the
Speaker 1: reason that her outfit is messed up in the beginnings
Speaker 1: because she was playing with him and hanging out and
Speaker 1: like he supported her decisions throughout, like when she was like,
Speaker 1: I'm going to go into town and like get more respect,
Speaker 1: and he was like, I wouldn't suggested, but I'm also
Speaker 1: not gonna, you know, keep you from doing it. Here,
Speaker 1: let me fix your hair. Like I just think that
Speaker 1: the addition of him is so nice because she literally
Speaker 1: at this point has no one else, you know, except
Speaker 1: for like the two older ladies. And in the same way,
Speaker 1: it's like I feel like sometimes with the Gustav character
Speaker 1: or like whatever, the when people who are not the
Speaker 1: same gender are best friends, it's always implied that one
Speaker 1: of them is like pining for the other, and it's
Speaker 1: like your soul made is and it's like Gustav is like, no,
Speaker 1: this is my friend, like my friend. I will support
Speaker 1: her if she hits the fan, I will bring Leonardo
Speaker 1: da Vinci into the equation as a friend. It's nice, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I like that, And that's just like an un it
Speaker 1: doesn't even need to be addressed because it's just like
Speaker 1: it's clearly a strong friendship. I love it. Yeah, I agree,
Speaker 1: And I like that that like kind of her kindness
Speaker 1: and her empathetic nature is used in this story to
Speaker 1: address class concerns where which I think is like such
Speaker 1: a good use of that, like classically Cinderella quality that
Speaker 1: I feel like is used in other adaptations to make
Speaker 1: her very demurred and to kind of flatten out her personality,
Speaker 1: but in this the way it's used in this screenplay,
Speaker 1: like it completely elevates her and gives her this mission
Speaker 1: that is completely you know, unrelated to a relationship, and
Speaker 1: it makes total sense because she is being treated like
Speaker 1: garbage by a stepparent who is very fixated on class
Speaker 1: in a very negative way. So of course these are
Speaker 1: concerns and her and the main people that she interacts
Speaker 1: with our servants, who are being actively oppressed. And so
Speaker 1: it's like I thought that the class unlike the well
Speaker 1: meaning but pretty clunky attempt to address class in Ella Enchanted,
Speaker 1: which is the other adaptation where it comes up, I
Speaker 1: felt like the way that class issues and the way
Speaker 1: that Danielle approaches class issues in this movie was really
Speaker 1: clear and for the most part, like really really effective.
Speaker 1: I completely agree. Danielle is like a leftist president of
Speaker 1: her local chapter of the d s A. Like, yeah,
Speaker 1: she's medieval friends d s A. She's like her various monologues.
Speaker 1: I wrote a lot of them down because I was
Speaker 1: just like, good, this is some good stuff. She's saying
Speaker 1: stuff like, you know, you can't deny people access to
Speaker 1: education and a means to survive and then punish them
Speaker 1: when they have no choice but to become thieves. And
Speaker 1: then Henry is like, wow, I see your point. I'll
Speaker 1: release this Maurice guy. And then she's like, yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: well you released him, but did you even give a
Speaker 1: second thought to the several other people who had you
Speaker 1: had imprisoned and like what about them? And I was like,
Speaker 1: holy sh it, Like I wasn't expecting that at all.
Speaker 1: I love it. She basically is like she's like performative.
Speaker 1: More more, she tells him she's like, you've been born
Speaker 1: with privilege when with that comes specific obligations, which is
Speaker 1: the same thing that his mother said to him earlier.
Speaker 1: But his mother meant, your obligation is to marry royalty
Speaker 1: and become a king Danielle. When she says it, she
Speaker 1: means that you have to use your elevated status and
Speaker 1: your position of privilege to do good in the world,
Speaker 1: which is why I don't hate that. Like at the
Speaker 1: end of the movie, after she's like been, you know,
Speaker 1: monologueing about leftist issues and class inequality, that she then
Speaker 1: becomes a princess, I'm like, Okay, well, at least she's
Speaker 1: probably going to use her new station to enact change
Speaker 1: and do good in the world. I mean, that's what
Speaker 1: they all say. But best I think she might go
Speaker 1: because she got him to invite the thieves to the
Speaker 1: ball and like, didn't they implement like a library that
Speaker 1: everybody could go to. Some stuff was happening even before
Speaker 1: she became I'm biased, obviously, but even before she's good,
Speaker 1: she's great. She's everything he does. Prince Henry does say like,
Speaker 1: I have this this great idea, I'm going to start
Speaker 1: a university that anyone can tend, regardless of their station
Speaker 1: in life, and then he tells Danielle about it and
Speaker 1: says that she inspired him. So he's like acknowledging that
Speaker 1: her ideology is influencing him, not enough that he doesn't
Speaker 1: scream at her to get out of his face when
Speaker 1: she's outed as a servant and a commoner at the ball,
Speaker 1: which is like, okay, sir, did you learn nothing? We
Speaker 1: all have some growing to do. It's so like, I
Speaker 1: think it's interesting how because I that's maybe like like
Speaker 1: maybe that's too real where but I like like the
Speaker 1: issue of class and the fact that Danielle is very
Speaker 1: confident and passionate about her views on class is part
Speaker 1: of what attracts the prince to her. But it first
Speaker 1: it's in this way that is like, oh god, it
Speaker 1: doesn't feel good to see on screen, where it's like
Speaker 1: he's drawn to her because he's like, oh, you're so
Speaker 1: passionate about this, this and this. That's so hot to
Speaker 1: me that you care about something. But then it's like
Speaker 1: it's hot to him to an extent, like you know,
Speaker 1: like once it becomes intrusive to his life, he shuts
Speaker 1: down and like once he's like, oh, you're not like
Speaker 1: a rich girl that cares about the poor, You're a
Speaker 1: poor girl that cares about the poor. Fuck you, Like
Speaker 1: I don't know, like I it just I I thought
Speaker 1: that there was a lot going on with the Prince's
Speaker 1: you know, class awakening, which I would argue is not
Speaker 1: fully complete by the end of the movie, and it's
Speaker 1: not supposed to be. You needed to happen earlier in
Speaker 1: the movie, or they needed to find a way to
Speaker 1: add something on the end of it to where it
Speaker 1: made sense that he was like, all right, my dad,
Speaker 1: I was wild. And basically what I mean is that
Speaker 1: everybody should should, you know, be much more equal, and
Speaker 1: we should have opportunities to everyone. Because just ending it on,
Speaker 1: like I love you and I'm gonna love you and
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna deal with you. Love it, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, right right, Like it's like, oh, this
Speaker 1: is a cute quality of my wife's that I like,
Speaker 1: she gives a shit about poor people. Like it's like,
Speaker 1: all right, which is you know, classic rich guy behavior.
Speaker 1: I don't love it anyways. Uh yeah him him said, like,
Speaker 1: I confess the plight of the everyday rustic bores me.
Speaker 1: Blah blah blah. What I do like, even though I
Speaker 1: think that, yeah, the decision for him to really publicly
Speaker 1: humiliate her when he finds out that she is not
Speaker 1: missus upper middle class or whatever the funk he thought
Speaker 1: she was. I was just like, if you're gonna make
Speaker 1: that choice, he's got to really give a spectacular apology,
Speaker 1: which doesn't really happen. But I do like that. It's
Speaker 1: not like I was a little worried because I feel
Speaker 1: like this is kind of like an ell enchanted thing too.
Speaker 1: Of you know, Danielle is definitely the strongest character in
Speaker 1: terms of like turning his head to the clear class issues.
Speaker 1: And I mean there's like another great quote from her
Speaker 1: where she's like, you claim to love this land, but
Speaker 1: you don't love the people who make it what it is,
Speaker 1: Like what the fuck? What are you talk like? The
Speaker 1: working classes makes the land what it is. But there
Speaker 1: are like I was worried that it's like, oh, it's
Speaker 1: just her that's gonna wake him up to this stuff,
Speaker 1: which kind of like I feel like feeds into a
Speaker 1: narrative of like I'm fixing him. But there's also other
Speaker 1: elements that are bringing Like I feel like that's how
Speaker 1: the da Vinci character is used pretty effectively. It's like
Speaker 1: there's the Princes encountering class issues because he's just out
Speaker 1: in the world for the first time Jasmine style, and
Speaker 1: like Danielle is a huge part of that. But She's
Speaker 1: not the only part of that, so it's like he's
Speaker 1: kind of on this whole side quest journey. And I
Speaker 1: like that it was characterized of like it's not just her,
Speaker 1: but she's a part of it. Yeah, that's what doesn't
Speaker 1: work for me quite so well, is that I do
Speaker 1: appreciate that what he likes about her is her passion
Speaker 1: and intelligence and conviction, which is more than you can
Speaker 1: say for most romantic storylines in most movies across genres
Speaker 1: where you're we talked about this all the time on
Speaker 1: the podcast, where it's like we're not sure why they
Speaker 1: like each other aside from the fact that they are
Speaker 1: near each other and they're both attractive people. So at
Speaker 1: least we get more about why he likes her. I'm
Speaker 1: not really sure why she likes him, especially because he
Speaker 1: is a pompous asshole for most of the movie and
Speaker 1: the part where she's like she's trying to like tell
Speaker 1: him that she is a commoner and like, you know,
Speaker 1: reveal her truth, she says something like, oh, why did
Speaker 1: you have to be so wonderful? And I'm thinking, like,
Speaker 1: was he so wonderful at any point? Caitlan, Listen, you
Speaker 1: can be a leftist and be addicted to dating pompous assholes. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm not pulling, but she said that though. When he
Speaker 1: like right after, she's beaten up because I feel like, okay,
Speaker 1: I'm going to be an apologist for a second, but
Speaker 1: ignorant for it. So basically when she says that to him,
Speaker 1: it's like whatever, she gets beat up because she was
Speaker 1: like gone the whole night with him, right, and like, yeah,
Speaker 1: he's a jerk, but like he wasn't a jerk, like
Speaker 1: for that whole time that night, right, So she probably
Speaker 1: on the high of that, right, because he was really
Speaker 1: laid it down, you know, he was sick, and she
Speaker 1: was like, I am into it, right. I mean they
Speaker 1: also banter with each other, they go back and forth,
Speaker 1: and they like, you know, that's a vibe as well.
Speaker 1: So an apologist, I feel like, you know, based off
Speaker 1: of the whole night that they spend with the thieves,
Speaker 1: you know, when they're like drinking and playing a game
Speaker 1: which is like basically rock paper shoot, I think, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, it's a vibe. So like that's why that's
Speaker 1: why that's why she liked him. I think I think
Speaker 1: it's also because she can see his potential you know,
Speaker 1: it's like he's not all the way there yet, but
Speaker 1: like she's not trying. I don't think she has to
Speaker 1: fix him. I think she just just like bringing out
Speaker 1: the things that she thinks are already there. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm just obviously biased because this is
Speaker 1: like one of my favorite movies in the entire world.
Speaker 1: But I just feel like I see why she likes him.
Speaker 1: But I do think that he has a lot of
Speaker 1: what to do. Yeah, I agree with that. Like I
Speaker 1: think that like in terms of like because this is
Speaker 1: a kids movie and it's like showing you how to
Speaker 1: you know, you do have to be careful of like
Speaker 1: how you model relationships and movies like this, and I
Speaker 1: don't think it's perfect in that way. And like I
Speaker 1: totally see what you're saying, Caitlin, of like telegraphing the children.
Speaker 1: That's like, well, sometimes the guy is a real fix
Speaker 1: her upper. But it's like that, like it gets a
Speaker 1: little muddy. Somebody calls hip in Joanna like it all
Speaker 1: it all gets a little messy, and I wish it
Speaker 1: were a little more clear cut for that reason. But
Speaker 1: I also agree with you Kia that it's like she
Speaker 1: does I think that that is maybe what we're supposed
Speaker 1: to believe is like she sees potential in him and
Speaker 1: he It's interesting. I feel like his arc is not
Speaker 1: complete really at the end of the movie, but it's
Speaker 1: like he's started a journey that I hope continues. I
Speaker 1: don't know, like it's tricky, but also it's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know. It seems like Pickens are slim in
Speaker 1: this neighborhood. She can now use she can like you know,
Speaker 1: like we were talking about, she can leverage the power
Speaker 1: and influence she now has to advance her own causes,
Speaker 1: and you know, hopefully her husband will stop, you know,
Speaker 1: Will will unlearn a lot of the behaviors he was
Speaker 1: brought up with, although you know, we all know how
Speaker 1: that story ends every single time. He did start that
Speaker 1: university though, because the framing device mentions at the end
Speaker 1: like and this portrait by Leonardo da Vinci of Danielle
Speaker 1: to Barbarak hung in the university until the French Revolution,
Speaker 1: when it presumably was ripped down and burned by the proletariat,
Speaker 1: which I get, but also like it's such a pretty
Speaker 1: it's fair. I kind of want that would be like
Speaker 1: a very fun. I love when people have like subtle
Speaker 1: fans stuff in their apartments like that. Having that painting
Speaker 1: would be fun as an ever after shout out, because
Speaker 1: that's a real painting. Yeah right, yeah, yeah, yeah, I do.
Speaker 1: This is like grasping at straws here. But I do
Speaker 1: appreciate that he apologizes at the end, which, as we've
Speaker 1: discussed on a number of other episodes, oftentimes in a
Speaker 1: story that involves a hetero romantic relationship where the man
Speaker 1: has wronged the woman in some way, there's often not
Speaker 1: any apology, or if it is, it's a very kind
Speaker 1: of empty one that is not satisfying. I would say
Speaker 1: that this apology, at least he says like I offered
Speaker 1: you the world, and at the first test of honor,
Speaker 1: I betrayed your trust. So he acknowledges that he sucked
Speaker 1: up real bad. I do think that he sucked up
Speaker 1: too bad, and that her coming around on his apology
Speaker 1: happens way too fast. But as to say, like I
Speaker 1: I don't oppose it happening. I just wish there was
Speaker 1: like a little less end of movie rushed. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: did it felt rushed? If they would have done it
Speaker 1: a little faster, like I think they could have cut
Speaker 1: the scene where he plays Kennis. If they cut that
Speaker 1: scene where he plays Kennis and pushed everything up, it
Speaker 1: would have made yeah and given her more time to
Speaker 1: like to digest or even talk with another character about
Speaker 1: it and that like face masks or something. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: do like that. Da Vinci shows up to the princess
Speaker 1: like you mother fucker. She's perfect and you hurt her
Speaker 1: and you've sucked up so bad. I was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: da Vinci, Yeah, then you don't deserve her. And even
Speaker 1: he just like takes her shoe and he's like, here
Speaker 1: have it. It's in the rain. It's ruined though, but
Speaker 1: just symbolically, here's the most ingenious creative decision made of
Speaker 1: all time. Is Da Vinci as fairy Godmother? Sort of?
Speaker 1: I love it so much. It's great and I feel
Speaker 1: like I have to say this before anything else happens.
Speaker 1: But and I'm biased again, but Drew Barrymore was in
Speaker 1: her broken bag. Okay, she was acting down. She's so
Speaker 1: good at being endearing and loving and you just root
Speaker 1: for her and you're like, why is this character not
Speaker 1: getting all the things that she deserves? Like who would
Speaker 1: you mean to her? She's perfect. And I just want
Speaker 1: to say, Drew, if your list man, I love you
Speaker 1: with my entire heart. Please know that you really did
Speaker 1: what you had to do. Oh Drew's listening. I feel
Speaker 1: like Drew Barrymore would listen to a podcast. I feel
Speaker 1: like I think she would just to sort of put
Speaker 1: a bow in the Danielle stuff. I liked how again,
Speaker 1: how this movie um gives you like the nineties heroine
Speaker 1: stuff without Mary suing her. She's a very physically active character.
Speaker 1: She's going on quests, their quests of her own. She's
Speaker 1: not the sidekick in any capacity. There is a fight
Speaker 1: that the prince participates in that she, you know, characterwise
Speaker 1: doesn't participate in, but then she picks him up. In
Speaker 1: that incredible shot, she picks him up. She gets into
Speaker 1: a fist fight with her step sister. She is like,
Speaker 1: she's about to get pepe lapew like, right, she fucking
Speaker 1: knife's pepe lapew. Possibly. Um. I just I liked that
Speaker 1: she was very physically active and capable without being you know,
Speaker 1: pandery Mary so decisions. I thought it was good. She
Speaker 1: who happens to the plot point doesn't happen to her exactly,
Speaker 1: but she's very yeah, he said, she's very active, always
Speaker 1: doing something. It's really that's really nice to see because
Speaker 1: usually it's like they're just sitting and waiting for the ball.
Speaker 1: They're like hanging out, usually at the pie table, like
Speaker 1: is it the ball yet? Especially in like fairy tale
Speaker 1: stories and even like modern adaptations of fairy tale stories,
Speaker 1: a lot of them don't really make the princess character
Speaker 1: that active or they damsel her. But like was mentioned,
Speaker 1: she at no point really has to be saved by
Speaker 1: a man. She saves Prince Henry from the band of
Speaker 1: thieves by carrying him off, and then at the end
Speaker 1: this was also mentioned, but when Prince Henry comes to
Speaker 1: rescue her from Monsieur qu she has already rescued herself,
Speaker 1: and they like just meet outside and she's like, what
Speaker 1: are you doing here? I love it. Yeah, Like it's
Speaker 1: so and it's not like I mean, it is kind
Speaker 1: of that's a big deal, but it's also like I
Speaker 1: did like the Prince's reaction where he wasn't like what
Speaker 1: like he was just like, oh great, like go back
Speaker 1: inside so I can rescue you. Right. I thought that
Speaker 1: that was a really sweet moment um. Getting it to
Speaker 1: just really quick. I wanted to just like touch on
Speaker 1: the creepy benefactor character one more time. I feel like
Speaker 1: we we talked about it at the top a little bit,
Speaker 1: but just to like I was again, And I don't
Speaker 1: mean this is like a good or bad thing. I
Speaker 1: just was like surprised that this movie went there to
Speaker 1: the extent of like Danielle is being treated as her
Speaker 1: stepmother's property. She is essentially sold to this creepy guy
Speaker 1: who we've seen attempt to prey on her before, and
Speaker 1: there's a real threat of rape in this scene, like
Speaker 1: he's repeatedly threatening to assault her. And then she's like
Speaker 1: I belong to no and at least of all you,
Speaker 1: and like saves herself. But I was I just wasn't expecting.
Speaker 1: I was expecting her to maybe get herself out of
Speaker 1: the tower, but Da Vinci gets her out of the tower,
Speaker 1: and then she has to save herself from something far
Speaker 1: more terrifying, and I just wasn't expecting it. But I
Speaker 1: thought that the way that the story handled it was
Speaker 1: pretty effective. Yeah, but espos because you know, like she's sold,
Speaker 1: like the stepman sold all the candlesticks, all the stuff
Speaker 1: that went missing to this man when I feel like,
Speaker 1: you know, it's not explicitly said, but it's implied, like
Speaker 1: she understands how gross he is to Danny, like what
Speaker 1: he's always implying, what he's hoping for with a child basically,
Speaker 1: and she's just like, I don't care, like still us.
Speaker 1: You know, here's the candle things give me money, Like
Speaker 1: here's this since in exchange for you know, a person,
Speaker 1: but also all my items that my husband had, but
Speaker 1: I'm supposed to care about, Like, I don't care what
Speaker 1: any of that. I just want the thing that's going
Speaker 1: to propel me forward, which makes her even more evil
Speaker 1: then before under that context where you're like, you know,
Speaker 1: this man is creepy. He comes to the market every week.
Speaker 1: It's on daniel and you're just like, all right, cool,
Speaker 1: say lest I'm just gonna, you know, let that ride. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, it really just doubles down on how evil
Speaker 1: she is. And I think it's also part of the
Speaker 1: class commentary where she's so irresponsible with her money, like
Speaker 1: Danielle points out that she ignores the manner she blames
Speaker 1: the servants for her debt. She sells the servants to
Speaker 1: pay her taxes and her debts pretends to have money
Speaker 1: to burn because there's a scene where like she's buying
Speaker 1: a brooch for Marguerite, and then yeah, all those like
Speaker 1: household things go missing, and she's accusing the servants of
Speaker 1: being thieves and like garnishes their wages until they're returned,
Speaker 1: knowing that she's the one who's selling those items off.
Speaker 1: But it's very much like the shitty things that like
Speaker 1: shitty rich people do, blaming poor people for their problems.
Speaker 1: There are things that they're doing wrong. Yeah, and then
Speaker 1: and then punishing the working class in order like as
Speaker 1: a part of her scheme to fake it until she
Speaker 1: makes it, like she is actively punishing and treating people
Speaker 1: like they're her property. I hate it, but the movie
Speaker 1: hates it too, So there you go. I wanted to
Speaker 1: just give some quick contact on the production of this movie. Kia.
Speaker 1: You mentioned that Drew Barrymore produced this movie and like
Speaker 1: really had to advocate for it being made, which is
Speaker 1: something she's repeatedly done throughout her career to you know,
Speaker 1: very you know, we you can listen to our Charlie's
Speaker 1: Angels episode if you want. We don't need to go
Speaker 1: there today. But I just thought this is a movie
Speaker 1: that was champion and brought to life by women and
Speaker 1: queer people. So there you go. Directed by Andy Tennant,
Speaker 1: who was I believe out and married at the time
Speaker 1: this movie came out, but he also directed It Takes Two.
Speaker 1: He later direct Hitch. He's another example, along with Rob
Speaker 1: Marshall of The Dancer and Kenny Ortega. Oh my God,
Speaker 1: for The Dancer to Director Pipeline, one of my favorite
Speaker 1: Pipelines because he's I mean, I could talk about him
Speaker 1: for a long time, but his debut was he was
Speaker 1: He's a background dancer in the original Greece and then
Speaker 1: like slowly worked as I don't know how The Dancer
Speaker 1: to Director Pipeline. I don't understand it, but I'm thrilled
Speaker 1: it exists. He co writes the screenplay with two other writers,
Speaker 1: one of whom I forgot to look up, but he
Speaker 1: co writes it with Susannah Grant and another writer named
Speaker 1: Rick Parks. Susannah Grant is of particul Killer interest here
Speaker 1: because obviously she's the only credited female screenwriter, but Susannah
Speaker 1: Grant had previously written I mean, she read a lot
Speaker 1: of nineties heroines, and her debut is Pocahontas, which we
Speaker 1: will do an episode with down the line. That's a
Speaker 1: whole thing. But she she would go on to write
Speaker 1: Aaron Brockovich. So we've covered Susannah Grant movie before with
Speaker 1: Alfred Molina. With Alfred Molina, she wrote other movies that
Speaker 1: I've seen, including In Her Shoes anyone remember that one? Yes?
Speaker 1: And then she also she wrote a series that came out.
Speaker 1: I mean she's still very much working. Um. She wrote
Speaker 1: that Netflix I think limited series Unbelievable. Um that came
Speaker 1: out a couple of years that was really Yeah. So
Speaker 1: she's like a really you know, talented writer who seems
Speaker 1: like throughout her career has prioritized telling women's stories, so that,
Speaker 1: you know, good for her. And then it was also
Speaker 1: produced by two young producers that are both women. The
Speaker 1: two top credited producers are Morrel Saraya I hope I'm
Speaker 1: saying that right and Tracy Trench. So yeah, it was
Speaker 1: just a movie that it sounds like, um, like you
Speaker 1: were saying, Kia that Drew Barrymore pushing for this movie
Speaker 1: to be made was one of in her like using
Speaker 1: her star power for good is a huge reason that
Speaker 1: this movie exists. And then it was very successful. I
Speaker 1: mean it made whatever. I had a twenty six million
Speaker 1: dollar budget and made nine million dollars at the box offices. So,
Speaker 1: you know, thrilled for everyone involved. And I would love
Speaker 1: to read someone's thesis on the Dancer to director Pipeline
Speaker 1: what's going on there? And somebody's got to write it, whoever,
Speaker 1: whoever has written it or will write it, Please let
Speaker 1: Jamie know, please. Uh. The last thing I wanted to
Speaker 1: mention about this movie, something that doesn't hold up as
Speaker 1: well as most of the other stuff in the movie,
Speaker 1: is the portrayal of Romani people, uh in the movie,
Speaker 1: which is a very stereotypical depiction of the way Romani
Speaker 1: people are often portrayed in media, which is they are thieves,
Speaker 1: they are criminals, their bandits, that kind of thing, which
Speaker 1: this movie completely reinforces and doesn't challenge in any way. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a big that's a big bulge of this movie.
Speaker 1: Like what does I love it? I'm like, no, that's terrible,
Speaker 1: stop it, stop it stop. Um. Does anyone have any
Speaker 1: other thoughts about ever after? Um? Just that it's that horrible,
Speaker 1: terrible thing aside a masterpiece, and that I feel like
Speaker 1: I want to see more. I want us to bring
Speaker 1: back the era of like letting female characters not forgive
Speaker 1: people who are them, Like, let's bring up back, let's
Speaker 1: let's let's keep going with that, please and thank you, Like, yes,
Speaker 1: I know I believe forgiven it blah blah blah. But also,
Speaker 1: let's let's normalize punching steps in the face, right We've
Speaker 1: I've been circling around this idea for a while. I
Speaker 1: it first like really bothered me a toy story for
Speaker 1: but of like this trend right now, like we need
Speaker 1: to humanize all of our villains to the point where
Speaker 1: we forgive them by the end. And I'm like, m
Speaker 1: I do kind of miss pushing the villain off a cliff.
Speaker 1: Like I like the idea of not leaning on stereotypes
Speaker 1: and weaponizing a lot of identity against a villain, which
Speaker 1: obviously happens in fairy tales and Disney movies all the time.
Speaker 1: But I also am like, if someone is behaving evil,
Speaker 1: you can have the context for it and you can
Speaker 1: push them off a cliff, or you can push them
Speaker 1: in the face. Some people are so awful that they
Speaker 1: don't deserve a dedemption, or they don't deserve forgiveness, and
Speaker 1: I would say that, especially the Baroness and Marguerite, their
Speaker 1: behavior in this movie does not warrant redemption. So it's
Speaker 1: fine that they end up in a tub of purple
Speaker 1: dye and turn purple and which is I was like,
Speaker 1: this is totally a little sillier than I was expecting.
Speaker 1: I like that if I'd be a big fat liar
Speaker 1: it literally I was like, I was like, this is
Speaker 1: giving me like Charlie and the Chocolate Factory violent. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I feel like that's my thing is that I wish
Speaker 1: that people would either read the script or watch the
Speaker 1: movie in terms of crafting villains where it's like you
Speaker 1: give them back story and you give them context, but
Speaker 1: you don't necessarily have to make them somehow a better
Speaker 1: person by the time that the ninety minutes or now
Speaker 1: at this point three hour movies o H. And this
Speaker 1: movie us past the factal test with flying colors. There's
Speaker 1: so I mean, I think that the majority of interactions,
Speaker 1: with the exception of Danielle and Prince Henry, are between women,
Speaker 1: and unless they are about Prince Henry, usually just about
Speaker 1: what women are doing or how women are treating each other.
Speaker 1: I feel like the stepmother is sometimes the third party
Speaker 1: being discussed in a lot of the things. Sometimes it's
Speaker 1: class issues, sometimes it's personal issues between women, Like there's
Speaker 1: no shortage of I think like almost every combination of
Speaker 1: women in this movie that could talk do for the
Speaker 1: most party. Yeah, yeah, I think so. And then as
Speaker 1: far as our nipple scale zero to five nipples based
Speaker 1: on how well the movie fares looking at it through
Speaker 1: an intersectional feminist lens, I think I would go four
Speaker 1: on this one. Um, there's a lot of things that
Speaker 1: the movie does that I think are very effective and
Speaker 1: a good example of how to modernize and update a
Speaker 1: fairy tale story which usually have problems baked into them,
Speaker 1: but knowing how to do an adaptation effectively in a
Speaker 1: way that you're staying somewhat true to the source material
Speaker 1: but also putting a modern and even feminist spin on
Speaker 1: the tail where we do have a strongly motivated character
Speaker 1: who has leftist politics and is very passionate about them,
Speaker 1: and is not motivated by like wanting to find a
Speaker 1: handsome prince. She is motivated by wanting to do good
Speaker 1: by her fellow human being. The way the romance unfolds,
Speaker 1: especially with Henry being a bit too pompous for most
Speaker 1: of the movie and then treating her like trash in
Speaker 1: the third act and then being like, oops, I saw
Speaker 1: her about that and she's like, that's okay, let's get married.
Speaker 1: Didn't work super well for me. But um, it is
Speaker 1: a fairy tale movie, so I guess I'll suspend my disbelief. Um,
Speaker 1: the movie does only have white people in it, and
Speaker 1: I don't know what the demographics of like rural Renaissance
Speaker 1: era France was, but it's a fantasy movie. Like it
Speaker 1: is a fantasy movie, you can make those changes as well, exactly.
Speaker 1: So there's that, uh. And then the representation of Romani
Speaker 1: people is very stereotypical and harmful. But yeah, I think
Speaker 1: there's a lot to really love about this movie. And
Speaker 1: I again, I think it like sets a good example
Speaker 1: of a modern retelling of a problematic fairy tale that
Speaker 1: does so much in the adaptation to make it actually
Speaker 1: like a feminist film. Yeah, i'd say I'd say that
Speaker 1: as well, who are you going to give your nipples to?
Speaker 1: I'll give one to Leonardo da Vinci, I'll give one
Speaker 1: to the apple that gets thrown at Prince Henry. I'll
Speaker 1: give one to the Da Vinci code being Apple, and
Speaker 1: my final nipple to Angelica Houston's eyebrow acting love it.
Speaker 1: I'll meet you four. Um. I I agree with the
Speaker 1: glaring issue of the treatment of Romani people, the plot
Speaker 1: point of having Henry be extremely classes until two seconds
Speaker 1: before the movie is over. It wasn't my favorite. Um.
Speaker 1: There could have been a plenty more racial and body
Speaker 1: diversity in particular this movie, which I think was like
Speaker 1: a huge miss, But there's so much being done right.
Speaker 1: I love that there are a lot of women hind
Speaker 1: this project to get it made. That makes perfect sense
Speaker 1: to me given what the movie is, and I love
Speaker 1: that it was successful and and really like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: it's my I think it's tied with Brandy Cinderella for
Speaker 1: my favorite adaptation of Cinderella. Now, so Kia is just
Speaker 1: spreading the good word. I'm so glad I saw the
Speaker 1: spoofy Danielle forever. I hope her d s A chapter flourishes.
Speaker 1: So I'll go four nipples, one to Danielle, one to Jacqueline,
Speaker 1: one to Da Vinci for sure, and let's see, I'll
Speaker 1: give my last one to Gustav because he was he
Speaker 1: was a real one. He was a good friend, he
Speaker 1: was a writer guy. He was he really was. Really
Speaker 1: what about you? I'm gonna echo your four because even
Speaker 1: though again it's my I love it with my whole heart,
Speaker 1: like I give it ten stars in my heart, but
Speaker 1: reality for nipples because of the same exact reasons, like
Speaker 1: the lack of diversity, which just so funny because you're
Speaker 1: still right, the lack of diversity, the way it treats
Speaker 1: the Romani people. And I hear what you're saying about Henry,
Speaker 1: but I feel like there were bits and pieces in
Speaker 1: there that like makes sense to me, but I get
Speaker 1: the vibe. So basically, four nipples. I'm going to give
Speaker 1: my first nipple, as always to Danielle Drew Barry where
Speaker 1: we love you and you were in your bag. My
Speaker 1: second nipple will go to Angelica Houston because she was
Speaker 1: also in her bag. My third nipple will go specifically
Speaker 1: to the scene at the Very Young when there's the
Speaker 1: confrontation between the Queen, the King, the baroness and everybody
Speaker 1: else in the town. And then my final nipple will
Speaker 1: go to Leonardo da Vinci because what like the second
Speaker 1: is just absolutely bonkers and I'm so just amazing, Like
Speaker 1: it is just the best. I love it so much.
Speaker 1: If you want to see a movie where a lot
Speaker 1: of things happen in a very short time, this is
Speaker 1: the movie for you to watch. It so amazing. Uh,
Speaker 1: and that's that's ever After, fox Kia. Thank you so
Speaker 1: much for for coming back and for bringing us this movie.
Speaker 1: The Cinderella tradition holds strong. Yes, listen, thank you for
Speaker 1: having me back. First of all, and I'll have to
Speaker 1: think of another movie that I'm just obsessed with. Besides,
Speaker 1: I want to remember what you've already done. Then I'll
Speaker 1: come back for that's their movie that I'll just figure
Speaker 1: it out. But yes, I'm glad to have introduced you
Speaker 1: to ever After, the American classic. It's really ever After,
Speaker 1: a Cinderella story, but also a story about like shouting
Speaker 1: on one persons and she's kind of good to the end.
Speaker 1: Thank you. I think that that did need to come back.
Speaker 1: Before the end of the episode. Kalen hates sharts, which, yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess, sorry to shame anyone who's sharts sting right now.
Speaker 1: We have listeners who are charting right now, Caitlin, so
Speaker 1: can you chill out so you can starting but you're right,
Speaker 1: You're right. Um, where can we Where can we find you? Online? Um?
Speaker 1: I'm to online everywhere. I'm on Twitter and Instagram at
Speaker 1: Kia k h Underscore Maria m A. I'm also on
Speaker 1: Tracebook at the Kia Brown. You can also see my
Speaker 1: work at Kia brown dot com. And I also again
Speaker 1: have a chicken's book coming out in August called Sam's
Speaker 1: Super Seeds, which I please, please please, would love for
Speaker 1: you to preorder because they're vital for authors and I
Speaker 1: feel like, if you have a kid in your life,
Speaker 1: you're gonna love this book. I love this book. I'm biased,
Speaker 1: but it's really good. Yes, I know I wrote it,
Speaker 1: so it's like we're so stuked. I'm like, I'm so
Speaker 1: thrilled to I'm literally going to preorder it right now.
Speaker 1: I'm so excited. Adore you. And then you can follow
Speaker 1: us on social media at bechtel Cast on Twitter and Instagram.
Speaker 1: You can subscribe to our Patreon ak Matreon, where again,
Speaker 1: we very recently covered two other Cinderella adaptations, Ella Enchanted
Speaker 1: and a Cinderella Story. Those can be found at patreon
Speaker 1: dot com slash becketel Cast. It's five dollars a month
Speaker 1: and you get access to all the past backlog of episodes.
Speaker 1: So scoot on over to the Patreon and and have
Speaker 1: a ball. And you can get merch at t public
Speaker 1: dot com slash the Bechtel Cast if that is uh
Speaker 1: lined up with your personal desires. Okay, and with that
Speaker 1: genius outro um, let's go and live. They lived, We lived.