1
00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:20,119
Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. I've been out to

2
00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:23,160
Speaker 1: LA a few times in my in my career, I've

3
00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:26,000
Speaker 1: had to film different things out there and interact with

4
00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,200
Speaker 1: folks out in Hollywood. And one of the odd little

5
00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:36,839
Speaker 1: asides about LA is this location there called the Hollywood Hills.

6
00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:39,760
Speaker 1: It's strange for somebody like me that lives down here

7
00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:42,839
Speaker 1: in the Deep South, but you go there and the

8
00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:46,080
Speaker 1: roads just kind of snake around you. You never know

9
00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:49,960
Speaker 1: where you're gonna wind up. But I got to tell you,

10
00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:52,280
Speaker 1: you know, when you begin to take it all in

11
00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:54,760
Speaker 1: and you look down and you can see the city

12
00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:57,960
Speaker 1: kind of laying out there before you, it's quite breathtaking.

13
00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:03,800
Speaker 1: It almost as though it's not real. It almost does,

14
00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:09,479
Speaker 1: in fact, seem like in that setting that the city

15
00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:15,360
Speaker 1: is a movie set. The views are fantastic. Today, we're

16
00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:18,480
Speaker 1: going to talk about a lady that lived there, that

17
00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:22,440
Speaker 1: was part and parcel of that community that people knew,

18
00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:27,640
Speaker 1: people in very high echelns out in Hollywood. We're going

19
00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:32,399
Speaker 1: to talk about the death of Amy Harwick. I'm Joseph

20
00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:41,160
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks. Some of the toughest

21
00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:46,280
Speaker 1: scenes that I've had to work have taken place as

22
00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:50,160
Speaker 1: a result of falls from great height because I don't know,

23
00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:53,560
Speaker 1: you you look at it and you try to make

24
00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:57,240
Speaker 1: heads or tails out of what actually happened, because sometimes

25
00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:00,840
Speaker 1: that traumas just so extensive it's very hard to kind

26
00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:04,800
Speaker 1: of make your way through everything that you have to analyze.

27
00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:10,400
Speaker 1: Jackie Howard, executive producer of Crown Stories with Nancy Grace. Jackie,

28
00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:13,240
Speaker 1: I gotta tell you this case is one of those cases.

29
00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:15,520
Speaker 1: For me, I can only imagine the trouble that the

30
00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:18,679
Speaker 1: corner had kind of deciphering what they were seeing before them.

31
00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:21,120
Speaker 1: I have so many questions for you, Joe about this

32
00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:24,000
Speaker 1: case related to that fall. But let's look a little

33
00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:26,720
Speaker 1: bit at the life of Amy Harwick. She was a

34
00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:30,639
Speaker 1: well known sex therapist in Hollywood. She was the ex

35
00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:34,919
Speaker 1: fiance of Drew Carey, actor and host of The Prices

36
00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:39,200
Speaker 1: Right And the night Amy Harwick died, she had gone

37
00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:43,239
Speaker 1: with friends to see a burlesque show and she had

38
00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:46,760
Speaker 1: got home around one o'clock in the morning, and at

39
00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:49,440
Speaker 1: that time she texted a friend that said, send me

40
00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:53,000
Speaker 1: pictures on the green couch. And the location where they

41
00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:56,000
Speaker 1: had gone there is a green couch, and I guess

42
00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:57,880
Speaker 1: she wanted to see that her friend got there and

43
00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:01,120
Speaker 1: she was having a good time. Amy decided to go home.

44
00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:06,919
Speaker 1: So as Amy went to her third floor apartment, she

45
00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:12,160
Speaker 1: was attacked. Police theorized that the assailant had been waiting

46
00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:15,120
Speaker 1: on her for hours. We'll talk a little more in

47
00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:19,280
Speaker 1: depth in a minute about the scene and what was found.

48
00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:23,400
Speaker 1: But Joe Amy Harwick was thrown off of the balcony

49
00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:28,200
Speaker 1: of her third floor apartment. That's about a twenty feet fall.

50
00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:32,519
Speaker 1: But we also know that she was assaulted and attacked

51
00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:39,560
Speaker 1: in her apartment. How can, how does? How will this

52
00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:44,640
Speaker 1: type of investigation be conducted? Because an has to distinguish

53
00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:49,280
Speaker 1: between the injuries caused by the assault and the injuries

54
00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:53,440
Speaker 1: caused by the fall. Where do you start? The first

55
00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:55,680
Speaker 1: place you start is at the scene. You want to

56
00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:58,440
Speaker 1: see if there's any kind of evidence, you know, at

57
00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:00,800
Speaker 1: the scene that would give you an indication of, you know,

58
00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:03,800
Speaker 1: any kind of struggle that had happened there and that

59
00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:07,280
Speaker 1: certainly you know was the case. There was disruption at

60
00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:09,200
Speaker 1: the scene, There was evidence that a door had been

61
00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:13,200
Speaker 1: breached and broken through. There was even blood on the door.

62
00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:16,279
Speaker 1: They haven't released a lot of information in regards to

63
00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:19,240
Speaker 1: that blood as to actually who the blood belonged to,

64
00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:23,000
Speaker 1: but that is significant. It's a significant bit of information.

65
00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:25,920
Speaker 1: That's something that is totally atypical. You don't expect to

66
00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:30,760
Speaker 1: walk into a well maintained living area. And from the

67
00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:34,840
Speaker 1: accounts that are friends have put forward, this apartment is

68
00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:37,600
Speaker 1: absolutely gorgeous. I mean, it's it's beautiful. If you could

69
00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:40,120
Speaker 1: see this building, it's it's kind of got a tutor

70
00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:42,960
Speaker 1: appearance to it, you know, a high pitched roof. It's

71
00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:47,000
Speaker 1: very well maintained and I'm sure very high end. We

72
00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:49,719
Speaker 1: talked about the Hollywood Hills people have talked about. Even

73
00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:53,240
Speaker 1: her bedroom was very striking. You know, she's a sex therapist.

74
00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:56,000
Speaker 1: I'm sure that it's, you know, very luxurious in all

75
00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:59,599
Speaker 1: those things. She's putting forth an image in this environment,

76
00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:02,600
Speaker 1: and you look for things there that are going to

77
00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:06,040
Speaker 1: give you clues as to what happened. Obviously we know

78
00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:09,880
Speaker 1: where she wound up. You know, she struck a hard surface,

79
00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:13,080
Speaker 1: you know, after a twenty foot fall. But how did

80
00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:16,760
Speaker 1: she come to wind up there? And it's interesting you

81
00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:21,159
Speaker 1: use the term throne off of the balcony. That's not

82
00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:23,440
Speaker 1: something that we just you know, conjured up out of

83
00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:27,600
Speaker 1: the air. That's something that apparently the corner had actually

84
00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:31,120
Speaker 1: reported to the local media. Thrown, you know, that's that's

85
00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:35,719
Speaker 1: an active word. That's that's different than fell. You know,

86
00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:38,800
Speaker 1: he began to think about thrown. That means that someone

87
00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:42,200
Speaker 1: in fact has to enter into the equation and propel

88
00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:45,520
Speaker 1: that individual through the air and over the balcony. And

89
00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:49,680
Speaker 1: that's not something that's easily accomplished. That's something that takes strength.

90
00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:52,920
Speaker 1: It's something that takes force of will in order to do,

91
00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:55,520
Speaker 1: and it's something that you have to be purposed at.

92
00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:57,640
Speaker 1: I would think, you know, there's any number of other

93
00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:00,160
Speaker 1: places that she could have been thrown, thrown through the floor,

94
00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:03,039
Speaker 1: through a window, thrown onto the bed, thrown into the

95
00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:07,640
Speaker 1: baths of I don't know, but thrown over a balcony railing.

96
00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:10,440
Speaker 1: And when you see the balcony, for folks that haven't

97
00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:12,200
Speaker 1: seen it, I'll kind of paint a picture for you.

98
00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:15,800
Speaker 1: It gives you the distinct impression of kind of a

99
00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:19,640
Speaker 1: larger form of what's referred to as a Juliette balcony,

100
00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:23,560
Speaker 1: that classic image that we think of Romeo and Juliet

101
00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:27,080
Speaker 1: highly romanticized. It's not a place you would go out

102
00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:29,120
Speaker 1: and take coffee and toast in the morning. And there's

103
00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:31,560
Speaker 1: not a lot of space to it, but it does

104
00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:35,120
Speaker 1: open into her bedroom and so it's a feature of

105
00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:38,039
Speaker 1: this home. And so you've got to make it through

106
00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:43,120
Speaker 1: several levels here, you know, because it's on the third floor,

107
00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:46,000
Speaker 1: her bedrooms up there on the third floor. You're not

108
00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:49,120
Speaker 1: going to access it, you know, from the top floor.

109
00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:54,640
Speaker 1: You have to access it down below. So whoever did

110
00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:58,800
Speaker 1: this would have had specific knowledge about that area and

111
00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:02,919
Speaker 1: where she lived. I think that's that's quite fascinating, in

112
00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:07,560
Speaker 1: a very interesting piece of evidence and evidence of a

113
00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:10,920
Speaker 1: life that has been lived, that an individual would have

114
00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:13,880
Speaker 1: to have familiarity with it where to find her in

115
00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:18,360
Speaker 1: this particular location, and not a lot of people would

116
00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:22,280
Speaker 1: have been out and about. This happened in the wee hours.

117
00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:25,680
Speaker 1: It's after midnight at two am. Yeah, it's at two am.

118
00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:28,840
Speaker 1: And I think one little aside here that's very very

119
00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:32,240
Speaker 1: important that we can certainly address, has happened on the

120
00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:36,160
Speaker 1: fifteenth of February. Jackie. She had been out celebrating with

121
00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:40,240
Speaker 1: these friends at the burlesque show on Valentine's Night. Well,

122
00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:43,520
Speaker 1: you were talking about how the m E announced to

123
00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:46,360
Speaker 1: the press that she was thrown off of the balcony.

124
00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:49,160
Speaker 1: Before we get back to the body and talk about

125
00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:52,040
Speaker 1: the injuries, how would he have known that? I know

126
00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:54,280
Speaker 1: it has to do with the angle of where the

127
00:07:54,320 --> 00:08:00,760
Speaker 1: body is found, the distance from the building. It's good

128
00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:04,800
Speaker 1: old geometry, trigonometry, all those elmetries that I am really

129
00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:08,119
Speaker 1: no good at. Yeah, you would think that, well, first off,

130
00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:10,360
Speaker 1: did you have a witness to it? You know, if

131
00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:13,840
Speaker 1: that is the font or the wellspring from where that

132
00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:17,800
Speaker 1: data is coming from. From an investigative standpoint, did somebody

133
00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:23,240
Speaker 1: physically witness her be projected off of the balcony, then

134
00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:26,520
Speaker 1: you have to think about, well, at what point did

135
00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:29,920
Speaker 1: she pitch off of the balcony? Did she make contact

136
00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:32,000
Speaker 1: with the rail? Is there any evidence that there was

137
00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:34,960
Speaker 1: any kind of blood transfer on the rail? Is there

138
00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:38,600
Speaker 1: any evidence that maybe someone had put their hands on

139
00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:41,640
Speaker 1: the rail, put their hands on her maybe if she's

140
00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:45,440
Speaker 1: wearing clothing, was the back of her collar clutched with

141
00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:49,800
Speaker 1: a bloody handprint, or maybe her backside or maybe her ankles.

142
00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:52,360
Speaker 1: Where you get this idea that maybe she was pitched out.

143
00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:56,840
Speaker 1: A person that is just falling will not generally have

144
00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:01,600
Speaker 1: the ability to project themselves. And another thing that you

145
00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:04,000
Speaker 1: have to factor in here, and you had mentioned this earlier,

146
00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:09,640
Speaker 1: is that the corner actually stated that she had sustained

147
00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:13,920
Speaker 1: two types of trauma. She not only sustained blunt force trauma,

148
00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:17,679
Speaker 1: which is generally associated with the fall and impact injury. Okay,

149
00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:20,560
Speaker 1: and we can dig into that, but also there was

150
00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:23,560
Speaker 1: evidence in the soft tissue of her neck that she

151
00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:28,480
Speaker 1: had been strangled or manually throttled in some way, that

152
00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:32,679
Speaker 1: there was deep tissue hemorrhage there a significant enough so

153
00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:35,320
Speaker 1: that the corner made note of it and thought that

154
00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:39,760
Speaker 1: it was a genuine finding, something that's not associated with

155
00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:43,559
Speaker 1: the fall. When we look at these types of injuries

156
00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:46,560
Speaker 1: like this, and people that have listened to bodybags now

157
00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:50,760
Speaker 1: they know that we talk about things like anti mortem injuries.

158
00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:54,720
Speaker 1: Before death, we talked about perimortem injuries, and then we

159
00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:57,760
Speaker 1: talk about post mortem injuries, and you know, just to

160
00:09:57,840 --> 00:09:59,920
Speaker 1: kind of break that down, if you have an anti

161
00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:04,840
Speaker 1: mortem injury, that gives you some kind of indication that

162
00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:08,880
Speaker 1: when the person sustained the injury, which is obviously prior

163
00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:11,840
Speaker 1: to death, that there's been time for that to begin,

164
00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:15,840
Speaker 1: at least even at a cellular level. For healing to start, okay,

165
00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:18,920
Speaker 1: where the traumatized area gives evidence that you know, there's

166
00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:21,240
Speaker 1: some type of work being done at a cellular level.

167
00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:25,880
Speaker 1: With perimortem injury, what you'll have and this distinguishes it

168
00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:31,960
Speaker 1: from post mortem perimortem. You have focal areas of hemorrhage, okay,

169
00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:35,080
Speaker 1: but there's no evidence of healing. So you know the

170
00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:39,480
Speaker 1: moment time, that time when the person lost their life,

171
00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:41,640
Speaker 1: you think about you know, there's probably a lot of

172
00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:44,240
Speaker 1: fracturing that's associated with this, and then you've got to

173
00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:47,040
Speaker 1: soft tissue hemorrhage. You begin to look at the sing

174
00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:49,800
Speaker 1: as logically as you possibly can, think, well, would somebody

175
00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:53,240
Speaker 1: hurt their neck, particularly like their anterior neck, and when

176
00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:55,840
Speaker 1: I say anterior, I mean front okay, below the chin.

177
00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:00,520
Speaker 1: Would they have injured that area in a fall? Well,

178
00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:03,840
Speaker 1: there's not a likelihood of that. Okay, you can strike

179
00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:07,840
Speaker 1: something and leave a linear mark. But I think what

180
00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:12,320
Speaker 1: the emmy saw relative to her neck is possibly and

181
00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:14,559
Speaker 1: I have no way to prove this at this moment time,

182
00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:21,440
Speaker 1: but that m may have seen a contused area, a

183
00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:25,880
Speaker 1: bruised area that may very well may have matched up

184
00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:29,600
Speaker 1: with a shape that appeared consistent with a human hand.

185
00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:31,640
Speaker 1: I need to back up on you for just a

186
00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:33,560
Speaker 1: second job because we are going to talk very in

187
00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:35,840
Speaker 1: depth about the injuries to the body, but I got

188
00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:39,360
Speaker 1: to talk about this idea of her being thrown again.

189
00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:43,200
Speaker 1: The Emmy's going to measure where the body fell, the

190
00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:48,400
Speaker 1: distance from the building, because usually if it's an accidental fall,

191
00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:52,480
Speaker 1: if I'm understanding things as I've learned from you and

192
00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:56,679
Speaker 1: Nancy through the years and her panel of experts, usually

193
00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:00,960
Speaker 1: if you fall, then you are going to appel yourself

194
00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:05,120
Speaker 1: is pretty much straight down. It's not going to be

195
00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:10,439
Speaker 1: ten or fifteen feet or I'm sorry, I'm distance challenged.

196
00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:12,080
Speaker 1: It's not, you know, but it's not going to be

197
00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:18,120
Speaker 1: at an angle from the building and at a distance, right, Yeah, yeah,

198
00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:22,240
Speaker 1: you're absolutely right when an individual free falls, essentially, particularly

199
00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:25,280
Speaker 1: from the short of a height. And don't get me wrong,

200
00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:30,840
Speaker 1: I'm not diminishing the trauma that was inflicted upon Amy's body,

201
00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:35,959
Speaker 1: but when you think about you know, twenty feet is

202
00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:38,720
Speaker 1: a lot different than two hundred feet. Okay, so it's

203
00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:40,880
Speaker 1: easier to kind of size this up, if you will.

204
00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:44,600
Speaker 1: When you begin to fall, you were doing the greatest

205
00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:48,360
Speaker 1: battle in the world, from a physics standpoint, with one

206
00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:51,160
Speaker 1: of the most overwhelming forces in nature, and that's gravity.

207
00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:53,439
Speaker 1: Remember gravity, it's not like you know, when we talk

208
00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:56,360
Speaker 1: about other elements that factor into death investigation, we're not

209
00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:59,360
Speaker 1: talking about things like heat and environmental changes. We're talking

210
00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:01,760
Speaker 1: about a con that's in your universe. Gravity is going

211
00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:04,520
Speaker 1: to impact us all no pun intended. We know what

212
00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:07,480
Speaker 1: it's like to fall down. Generally, when we fall our

213
00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:10,079
Speaker 1: people pass out for instance, say if you're deprived of

214
00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:14,520
Speaker 1: oxygen and you just kind of fall over, you're going

215
00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:17,280
Speaker 1: to fall essentially straight down. But when you get this

216
00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:24,440
Speaker 1: kind of projected event, you have to begin to think about, well,

217
00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:28,079
Speaker 1: how far away from that leading edge of the balcony

218
00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:31,400
Speaker 1: would you have had to have kind of been propelled

219
00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:36,040
Speaker 1: out from in order to wind up this particular distance

220
00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:40,040
Speaker 1: away or forward of the edge the leading edge of

221
00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:42,400
Speaker 1: that balcony. And I think that that's probably what they're

222
00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:45,000
Speaker 1: looking at. It's going to be variable. None of these

223
00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:48,320
Speaker 1: numbers are static because there's too many variables to factor into.

224
00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:50,520
Speaker 1: But I think that you can kind of classify by

225
00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:54,480
Speaker 1: looking at it and think, well, if she was pitched

226
00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:56,840
Speaker 1: and we don't know what position or body was in

227
00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:59,040
Speaker 1: that's you know, one of the reasons I was saying earlier,

228
00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:00,800
Speaker 1: you know, is their evidence she was grabbed by a

229
00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:03,720
Speaker 1: collar by her backside and just kind of thrown up

230
00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:05,680
Speaker 1: in the air like a you know, like a bail

231
00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:08,960
Speaker 1: of hay, or she pitched outward or maybe three to

232
00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:11,520
Speaker 1: five feet. And how much strength would it take to

233
00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:14,959
Speaker 1: propel a woman who probably weighed roughly about one and

234
00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,440
Speaker 1: twenty one hundred and twenty five pounds. How far can

235
00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:23,440
Speaker 1: you toss someone like that? And apparently it was significant

236
00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:27,480
Speaker 1: enough to get the idea that she was out away

237
00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:30,400
Speaker 1: from the balcony, that she didn't just simply tip over

238
00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:32,920
Speaker 1: the edge and fall straight down, you know, with gravity

239
00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:36,400
Speaker 1: having the totality of the effect relative to her death,

240
00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:39,880
Speaker 1: this is something where she would have had to have

241
00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:43,800
Speaker 1: been propelled out from the edge and she fell through

242
00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:46,840
Speaker 1: the air perhaps I don't know, three to four feet

243
00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:49,720
Speaker 1: away from the balcony. And that's one of the things

244
00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:52,440
Speaker 1: that the emmy struggles with. The key here though, and

245
00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:55,480
Speaker 1: I find this quite interesting, is again back to this

246
00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:59,280
Speaker 1: idea that they released this information, Jackie. How were they

247
00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:04,000
Speaker 1: able to draw these conclusions because guess what, when folks

248
00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:08,920
Speaker 1: first arrived at the scene relative to Amy, and they

249
00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:14,880
Speaker 1: did the initial assessment. She's still alive. They extricated her

250
00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:18,320
Speaker 1: from that scene, They extricated her from the ground beneath

251
00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:22,920
Speaker 1: that balcony and removed her from her home to Cedar

252
00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:27,640
Speaker 1: SI And I speculatively, how do you make that? Because

253
00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:31,160
Speaker 1: it is numbers. You know, you'd mentioned trigonometry. It is numbers.

254
00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:33,480
Speaker 1: When you begin to think about this, how exactly do

255
00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:36,760
Speaker 1: you come up with a formula when you're absent a body,

256
00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:39,600
Speaker 1: just as kind of an outside observer. It makes you

257
00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:43,120
Speaker 1: think that, well, maybe maybe the police had more information,

258
00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:45,160
Speaker 1: or maybe the m E has more information and we're

259
00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:49,239
Speaker 1: fully aware of Is there a difference in the injuries

260
00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:54,480
Speaker 1: from whether you are thrown at this height or fall

261
00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:59,720
Speaker 1: from this height? Does the force that propelled you had

262
00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,840
Speaker 1: any difference in the impact and the damage it makes

263
00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:07,080
Speaker 1: to the body. I think that perhaps you have what's

264
00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:09,720
Speaker 1: referred to as kind of aertial energy that you know,

265
00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:12,320
Speaker 1: given the mass of your body, when you tip over

266
00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:16,360
Speaker 1: and fall, you generate a certain a certain velocity, okay,

267
00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:19,480
Speaker 1: and maybe that could be sped up to a certain

268
00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:24,240
Speaker 1: degree if you're cast And when I say cast, pitched,

269
00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:29,480
Speaker 1: thrown propelled, but it's going to be negligible. What's really

270
00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:32,920
Speaker 1: going to dictate most injuries, and I talk about this

271
00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:37,520
Speaker 1: with people that I teach my classes, What really dictates

272
00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,440
Speaker 1: the type of injury that you're going to have is

273
00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,440
Speaker 1: the surface that you strike. You think about anybody that

274
00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:47,720
Speaker 1: falls and they strike, say a pile of leaves, all right,

275
00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:50,160
Speaker 1: a lot of that energy is going to be absorbed

276
00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:53,080
Speaker 1: by that soft surface. But if you strike say a

277
00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:57,560
Speaker 1: poured concrete area and asphalt area, that energy is not

278
00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:01,520
Speaker 1: going to dissipate as red. It's not going to kind

279
00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:03,520
Speaker 1: of range out away from the body, is going to

280
00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:06,800
Speaker 1: be self contained and kind of focal to wherever you

281
00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:09,639
Speaker 1: make these points of impact. That's one of the ways

282
00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:12,240
Speaker 1: that we tell many times when people will come up

283
00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:15,880
Speaker 1: with these stories about, yeah, well my kid he fell

284
00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:19,040
Speaker 1: and he broke his leg. Okay, You've got some person

285
00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:20,760
Speaker 1: that comes in an emergency room and they make that

286
00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:24,040
Speaker 1: comment about, you know, a broken leg on a child

287
00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:28,200
Speaker 1: or a shoulder or something like that, and well, okay,

288
00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:31,560
Speaker 1: it's pretty nasty injury. They've got a compound common ute fracture,

289
00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:36,080
Speaker 1: you've got a bone protruding. Okay, I see that. Maybe

290
00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:39,760
Speaker 1: they fell and they struck that one location, But how

291
00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:43,680
Speaker 1: do you get all these other non associated bruises, these

292
00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:46,720
Speaker 1: points of impact. That means that something else has been

293
00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:49,520
Speaker 1: going on. So if it's a one off event where

294
00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:54,280
Speaker 1: say she falls, Amy falls and strikes, say the point

295
00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:56,320
Speaker 1: of contact, and I don't know this for a fact,

296
00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:59,639
Speaker 1: but the point of contact is, say the top of

297
00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:03,840
Speaker 1: her head head, All right, Well, then you will have

298
00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:07,520
Speaker 1: a focal area of hemorrhage. It'll be probably an underlying

299
00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:09,680
Speaker 1: fracture that's going to center on the top of her

300
00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:13,400
Speaker 1: head and it'll kind of extend out. That fracture will

301
00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:15,439
Speaker 1: extend out. You might even have what's referred to as

302
00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:19,119
Speaker 1: a depressed skull fracture at that point in time, and

303
00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:23,359
Speaker 1: it's extending out almost like a cracked eggshell. You wouldn't

304
00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:27,360
Speaker 1: expect to see multiple fractures that are from multiple strikes.

305
00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:30,920
Speaker 1: It's a single strike, all right, And according to what

306
00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:33,920
Speaker 1: the corner is saying, at least at this point in time,

307
00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,479
Speaker 1: she had trauma to both her head and her up

308
00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:41,520
Speaker 1: her body. So maybe just maybe we're not talking about

309
00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:43,480
Speaker 1: a single strike to the top of the head. Maybe

310
00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:46,480
Speaker 1: when she impacted, not only did she impact the side

311
00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:49,720
Speaker 1: of her head, perhaps, but she also impacted her shoulder,

312
00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:52,359
Speaker 1: and so these things are going to be kind of

313
00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:55,639
Speaker 1: married up as the single event, those two single points

314
00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:59,040
Speaker 1: of contact, and she fell with such ferocity that she

315
00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,920
Speaker 1: sustained fractures, and certainly it was enough to bring about

316
00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:23,920
Speaker 1: her death. I don't think that the public at large

317
00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:26,359
Speaker 1: understands that one of the leading causes of death in

318
00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:29,120
Speaker 1: our country is blunt force trauma when it comes down

319
00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:33,119
Speaker 1: to traumatic events, because you know, there are more people

320
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,920
Speaker 1: that are involved in fatal car accidents than just about

321
00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:39,960
Speaker 1: any other kind of trauma related event that's out there,

322
00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:43,320
Speaker 1: and so we deal a lot in the medical legal

323
00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:46,960
Speaker 1: world with blunt force trauma in car accidents in particular.

324
00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:50,320
Speaker 1: Blunt force trauma is in fact the leading cause of death,

325
00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:55,280
Speaker 1: but it can be very confusing because the injuries that

326
00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:59,359
Speaker 1: are sustained with blunt forced trauma are so extensive, and

327
00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:02,560
Speaker 1: you know, you'll hear people describe them as being massive.

328
00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:06,040
Speaker 1: I don't know at this point in time, Jackie, if

329
00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:09,359
Speaker 1: I can say that her injuries are massive, because what

330
00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,840
Speaker 1: we do understand is that when the authorities arrived at

331
00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:15,800
Speaker 1: the scene, she at least had what's referred to as

332
00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:19,160
Speaker 1: an agonal respiration. She had some sign of life enough

333
00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:22,280
Speaker 1: that they tried to resuscitate her and took her to

334
00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:24,720
Speaker 1: the hospital, and of course she eventually died there at

335
00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:30,560
Speaker 1: Cedar Sina. Let's look closer at Harwick's injuries. She had

336
00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:34,800
Speaker 1: injuries to her brain, to her liver, and to her

337
00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:39,040
Speaker 1: pelvis from her fall. The apartment balcony to the ground

338
00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:42,199
Speaker 1: was about twenty feet. She also had severe injuries and

339
00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:47,560
Speaker 1: deep marks on her neck, indicating, as you mentioned earlier,

340
00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:51,480
Speaker 1: that she had been strangled before she fell. Then you have,

341
00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:55,639
Speaker 1: as you were talking about before the break, all of

342
00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:59,920
Speaker 1: these injuries from the fall itself. How does an emmy

343
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:05,760
Speaker 1: go about laying those out? I think that one of

344
00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:07,920
Speaker 1: the things that you have to consider because one of

345
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,959
Speaker 1: the questions that will come up is, you know, we're

346
00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:15,240
Speaker 1: talking about these locations of injuries. We talked about the head,

347
00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:17,680
Speaker 1: when we talked about the liver. You mentioned the liver,

348
00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:20,840
Speaker 1: and certainly talked about the pelvis. So that gives you

349
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:25,960
Speaker 1: an indication as to perhaps how she impacted. If it's

350
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:28,440
Speaker 1: a single, one off fall, Let's say that they were

351
00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:32,600
Speaker 1: able to rule out that she had been You mentioned

352
00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:37,000
Speaker 1: the liver for instance, liver is a particular area that

353
00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:40,760
Speaker 1: you can see when somebody has been beaten in the abdomen.

354
00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:44,719
Speaker 1: If our listeners will essentially find the bottom of your

355
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,840
Speaker 1: rib cage on the right side of your body kind

356
00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:51,159
Speaker 1: of snugged up in that area is your liver, all right,

357
00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:54,440
Speaker 1: and it's not completely protected by the rib cage. It's there,

358
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:56,560
Speaker 1: it's exposed, so it's real easy to get to. And

359
00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:59,080
Speaker 1: I've had cases where people have been kicked to death

360
00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,639
Speaker 1: in liver. Liver can be very fragile. People find this

361
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:04,080
Speaker 1: kind of odd. One of the things that we talk

362
00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:08,679
Speaker 1: about in forensic pathology a medical legal death investigation is

363
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:14,280
Speaker 1: that you'll hear pathologists or reed pathologists do an examination

364
00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:17,160
Speaker 1: of the organs of the body and the liver in particular.

365
00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:22,359
Speaker 1: They'll refer to as these injuries of the liver as

366
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:26,320
Speaker 1: a laceration, but they'll also call it a hepatic fracture.

367
00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:29,840
Speaker 1: Hepatic having to do with a liver. And when you

368
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:31,760
Speaker 1: see the liver and the surface of it after it's

369
00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:35,160
Speaker 1: sustained an impact injury, it actually has the appearance Jackie

370
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:37,959
Speaker 1: of a fracture. It kind of radiates out, it'll be

371
00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:41,760
Speaker 1: very jagged, and the gut itself will begin to fill

372
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,560
Speaker 1: up with blood and people will die very very quickly

373
00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:48,040
Speaker 1: as a result of this, because you know, the liver

374
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:52,120
Speaker 1: has a tremendous amount of blood supply, so you begin

375
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:53,760
Speaker 1: to clip those little vessels in there, and if you

376
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:57,000
Speaker 1: don't get treated, you'll essentially lose blood and you'll die

377
00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,560
Speaker 1: of internal bleeding. But let's think about if this is

378
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:05,119
Speaker 1: a one off fall where she's got head injury, she's

379
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:09,639
Speaker 1: got a liver injury, and she's got a pelvic injury. Well,

380
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,200
Speaker 1: how would you sustain that in a single fall? Well,

381
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:15,320
Speaker 1: the only thing I can really think about is that

382
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:19,840
Speaker 1: if you are falling through the air, you're not tipped

383
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:23,320
Speaker 1: toward the top of your head or to the soles

384
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 1: of your feet. You're essentially pancaking in at this moment time.

385
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:31,600
Speaker 1: So one of two things. You will either essentially imagine

386
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,959
Speaker 1: somebody doing a belly flop off of a diving board,

387
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,520
Speaker 1: and we know what kind of impact that creates, And

388
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,720
Speaker 1: certainly the surface that Amy fell onto was not forgiving

389
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 1: that energy as a result of that impact would transfer

390
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:46,719
Speaker 1: to these points of contact. You know where she struck

391
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:49,800
Speaker 1: the ground with her head and the hepatic region of

392
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:53,200
Speaker 1: her abdomen and certainly her pelvic region, so it would

393
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,840
Speaker 1: have to come about simultaneously. Some people say, well, could

394
00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,960
Speaker 1: she have landed on her back flat and had this happened. Yeah,

395
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,159
Speaker 1: I suppose that she could have. But you know, the

396
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:06,320
Speaker 1: way we're kind of designed with our spine is that

397
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,560
Speaker 1: often equated to you know, when we curl up, you know,

398
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:11,960
Speaker 1: we kind of almost take on a tortoise like appearance.

399
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,439
Speaker 1: You know, our spine creates this kind of shell like

400
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 1: position for us. It would be very difficult, I think,

401
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,480
Speaker 1: to generate that kind of injury to the liver. My

402
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 1: money would either be she would strike face down or

403
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:28,480
Speaker 1: perhaps on her right side, so that you've got involvement

404
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:32,159
Speaker 1: with the pelvis, the hepatic region, and of course the

405
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:36,480
Speaker 1: head injury in all of these these specific areas. You know,

406
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,520
Speaker 1: I talked about how vascular the liver is, and you've

407
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 1: got tons of tiny vessels in there that cause you

408
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:43,639
Speaker 1: to blete out into the gut. What do you have

409
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 1: in the pelvis? Oh my gosh, Well, there's all kinds

410
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 1: of vessels in there. And the pelvis is an odd bone.

411
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 1: When you break it, it's oddly shaved, it's an irregular bone.

412
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:58,640
Speaker 1: And so it fractures in these odd kind of ways,

413
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of les in there, and most

414
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:06,200
Speaker 1: obvious you have the femoral artery is rooted up in

415
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 1: there and it kind of passes through what you call

416
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 1: a fram and a framan is a ten dollar word

417
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,359
Speaker 1: that physicians and anatomus to use for a hole in

418
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 1: the bone, and it passes through these areas through there,

419
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:22,919
Speaker 1: and so the fmoral artery can be clipped, and if

420
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 1: that happens, that's deadly. And then not to mention what's

421
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:29,159
Speaker 1: going on in the skull with a closed head injury,

422
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:33,400
Speaker 1: again very vascular region, you begin to bleed out. Essentially,

423
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 1: seepage is taking place and blood will kind of leech

424
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,720
Speaker 1: out into those soft tissues around the brain within the brain,

425
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 1: and the brain begins to swell and the person eventually dies.

426
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:49,679
Speaker 1: So you take all of those injuries that we have

427
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:55,360
Speaker 1: just enumerated the possibility of, and then when you finally

428
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 1: receive Amy's remains to take a look at them, they've

429
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 1: got a devil of a job on their hands because

430
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:03,919
Speaker 1: they begin to look at this extensive trauma that she

431
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 1: sustained to her torso, but yet you still have the

432
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 1: neck hang on, Joe, I got another question about the liver.

433
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:16,919
Speaker 1: Is it likely or possible that she was beaten and

434
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:19,919
Speaker 1: that is part of what gave her these injuries to

435
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 1: her liver, or is it likely those injuries were just

436
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 1: caused from the fall. That's an excellent question in that

437
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,120
Speaker 1: you know, I talked about blunt force trauma and car

438
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 1: accidents a little while ago, and I'd say, I know

439
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 1: that there'll be debate about this if people hear this,

440
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 1: but one of the organs that's really impacted by blunt

441
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 1: force trauma in cars many times is the liver. It's

442
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 1: so close to the surface and again, if you find

443
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,439
Speaker 1: the bottom of your ribcage on the right hand side,

444
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,640
Speaker 1: it's just tucked right there. And it's essentially the largest

445
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 1: organ in the body. It's massive, and it's got a

446
00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,880
Speaker 1: lot of surface area and again a lot of vessel

447
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 1: running passing through it. When you have a traumatized liver,

448
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,399
Speaker 1: the surgeons that can get to the liver that begin

449
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 1: to repair it have got a devil of the time

450
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 1: because there are all these little microfractures that you get

451
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 1: in there. You've got these little beaty vessels that have

452
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:18,640
Speaker 1: been ruptured many times. The surgeons will go back and say, well,

453
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 1: we're still leaking blood into the gut. We've got to

454
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 1: figure out what the origin of this is. I could

455
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,200
Speaker 1: do it, it's my pay grade. I'm not bright enough

456
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 1: to do that. So my hats off to trauma surgeons

457
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,959
Speaker 1: that are able to do that to assess it. To

458
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,120
Speaker 1: your point, though, I have seen people that have been

459
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 1: kicked to death in the abdomen, and that point of

460
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:42,639
Speaker 1: impact many times has been the liver. It's an interesting

461
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 1: proposition when you begin to think about this that you've

462
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 1: already got a young lady that, according to the corner,

463
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 1: has got trauma to her neck. You begin to think, well, gee,

464
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:58,160
Speaker 1: you know what other kind of trauma did she sustain?

465
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 1: Because there is an ear witness to this event that

466
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 1: actually heard what they described as bodies, not singular, but

467
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 1: by these falling to the ground. There's a struggle going on,

468
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:17,639
Speaker 1: and it's within earshot of a roommate and they've heard this,

469
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 1: and you begin to think, okay, well you're saying there's

470
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 1: a struggle, there's apparently an associated scream that apparently emanated

471
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 1: from amy. Well what else going on here? You know?

472
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 1: How many how many layers are we going to have

473
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:36,120
Speaker 1: to peel back here to try to understand. Many times, though,

474
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 1: when you see abdominal trauma, the abdomen is not necessarily

475
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 1: going to be opened up. It's not like a gunshot

476
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 1: woman where you've got an open wound, but overlying the

477
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 1: hepatic region, you know, that area that I talked about,

478
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: this arrival of the right rib cage at the base.

479
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 1: Many times you'll see an overlying contusion. Okay, you'll see

480
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 1: an area that is read and irritated, are possibly even bruised.

481
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 1: And you can track this when we open at autopsy

482
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 1: and reflect back that tissue that's overlying the liver. You'll

483
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 1: see on the backside of the wall of the abdomen

484
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 1: there'll be a big area of hemorrhage right there overlying

485
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 1: that area. And then of course it'll be lying right

486
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 1: on top of a liver that's been traumatized. And there's

487
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 1: a term that we use for this when the liver

488
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 1: is like, are the spling too? You hear this a

489
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 1: lot is a term called maceration, and it just it's

490
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 1: a fancy term for saying that the organ has been

491
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 1: beaten to bits. It's been almost pulpified, you know, I

492
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 1: don't know that that's necessarily the case in n Amy's case,

493
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 1: but she apparently sustained significant abdominal trauma. We know that.

494
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 1: The trick here, though, I think for the pathologist is

495
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 1: going to be able to delineate the order at which

496
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 1: this occurred and when it occurred, because that this person

497
00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 1: is going to be asked these questions if this case

498
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 1: goes to trial, they will be asked, what order, doctor,

499
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,960
Speaker 1: did these injuries take place in? You know, you're saying

500
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 1: you've got trauma to the neck. It looks like there's

501
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 1: a strangulation that's going on. Are you sure that this

502
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 1: happened before she went over the balcony or did going

503
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,960
Speaker 1: over the balcony cause this injury? Or was this something

504
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 1: that happened before she went over the balcony? Keep going, Joe,

505
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 1: how are they going to do do? It's like reading a

506
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 1: mystery novel. Don't leave me, ay, And how are they

507
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 1: going to know this? It's going to be very difficult

508
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 1: to know it because you've got two traumatic events that,

509
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 1: by their own admission, the corner saying that happened in

510
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 1: a perimortem state. Okay, that it happened during the throes

511
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 1: of death. And that's what's going to make this case

512
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:49,160
Speaker 1: so difficult. I think for them to try to describe

513
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 1: the forensic pathologists that has to sit on the stand,

514
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 1: are they going to be able to say definitively? You know.

515
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 1: One of the things that we talked about with Nancy

516
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 1: he began to have forensic experts that come up on

517
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 1: the stand. You never talk in absolutes when you're on

518
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 1: the stand, you say absolutely, beyond a shadow of a doubt,

519
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 1: you know this is what happened, because that's how you

520
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 1: get into big trouble. You have to make comments like

521
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 1: within a degree of scientific certainty. And so I don't

522
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 1: know that they'll be able to say definitively that they

523
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 1: can give you the order in which these occurred, unless

524
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 1: they're seeing something microscopically, you know. Again, I go back

525
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 1: to anti mortem injuries and the perimortem injuries. Remember, we've

526
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 1: got an earwitness to this. It's going to be real key.

527
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 1: I think at least that when they have this ear

528
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 1: witness to this event, can they measure out the time

529
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 1: What was the amount of time that we're talking about

530
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 1: in linear time? You know, from you know this moment

531
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 1: time to the last sound that you heard, how long

532
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 1: did that take to happen? And then it based upon

533
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 1: that because you've got a baseline at that point. Scientifically,

534
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 1: you go back to the pathologist and say, okay, doc,

535
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 1: are these injuries consistent with what you're seeing here? You know,

536
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 1: demonstrate it on the autopsy table, and it's going to

537
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 1: be I think at least it's going to be a

538
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 1: point of contention if this thing comes to trial. Amy

539
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 1: Harwick's cause of death was listed as blunt force trauma.

540
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 1: If you have a fall like this, and I'm not

541
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 1: talking about being thrown, I'm just talking about a fall,

542
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 1: would it still be listed as blunt force trauma. There's

543
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 1: the old joke that people make about the fall. That's

544
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 1: not what kills you. It's a sudden stop, And this

545
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 1: is actually true. There's truth in that bit of morbid humor.

546
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 1: And many times, particularly with motor vehicle accidents, there's a

547
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 1: kind of a way that in medical legal death investigation

548
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 1: we frame these things that are called rapid deceleration injuries,

549
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 1: and sometimes that's associated with things like striking a fixed

550
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,959
Speaker 1: object as you're moving through space, like in a car.

551
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 1: If you're not belted in a car, and you slam

552
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 1: into a bridge abutment. Okay, well the car stopped moving.

553
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 1: Your body essentially stopped moving when you struck the steering

554
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 1: wheel or the windshield. But guess what, your organs are

555
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 1: still moving. People don't think about that for a middlesecond.

556
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 1: Your organs are still moving in your body and they

557
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 1: get ripped to shreds as this weird event that takes place.

558
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 1: And I think that you can have this kind of

559
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 1: event occur with a fall as well. The trick is

560
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 1: being able to explain this in terms that a layman

561
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 1: will be able to understand it, particularly in a chord,

562
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 1: because that's where this really matters. How do you frame

563
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 1: this so that people understand that it was in fact

564
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 1: the fall that killed her as opposed to this manual

565
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 1: stringulation event, because there are going to be questions that

566
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 1: are going to arise relative to that. And it seems

567
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 1: like you've got all of the information here, but sometimes

568
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 1: in cases you get so it's such a glut of

569
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 1: information that it can be confusing, particularly for the layman

570
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 1: that occupied the jury box. You know they're going to

571
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 1: have to be able to make good decision based on

572
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,320
Speaker 1: this information that's coming to them from the medical examining

573
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 1: the investigators in cases involving someone like Amy Hardwick, she

574
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 1: led a very interesting life and came in contact with

575
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,720
Speaker 1: a lot of people that brought her into the lens

576
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 1: of the public. She was strikingly beautiful and it was

577
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 1: a sex therapist. And so when you see her life

578
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 1: coming to an end in such a violent way, you

579
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 1: begin to think about things, Well, who would be on

580
00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 1: your short list as far as suspects. You know, who

581
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 1: who is she come in contact with? Is there a

582
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:05,319
Speaker 1: history of somebody that's out there that's lurking about in

583
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 1: her life, that's harassing her, that's making her life pure health,

584
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,760
Speaker 1: that has left her in fear or the restraining orders,

585
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 1: And as investigators, that's one of the first places you're

586
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 1: going to go to because where she died is not

587
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 1: a place prone to this kind of violence. It almost

588
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:26,239
Speaker 1: appears like she was targeted in some way. Jackie Well,

589
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:30,840
Speaker 1: that is exactly what investigators suspect happen. In fact, Joe

590
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 1: Amy Harwick told family and friends at one point, if

591
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:40,320
Speaker 1: anything ever happens to me, it's him, and that him

592
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:45,800
Speaker 1: is an ex boyfriend. His name is Gareth purse House.

593
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:50,440
Speaker 1: He has now been charged with murder and residential burglary

594
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 1: with special circumstance allegations of lying in wait, and that

595
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 1: comes from the fact that police believe that he was

596
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:03,880
Speaker 1: waiting for Harwick for hours. Now when police were called,

597
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 1: they were called by her downstairs roommate. He tells police

598
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 1: that he woke up and heard something, not really sure

599
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:16,280
Speaker 1: what he heard, He just assumed that it was Harwick

600
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,799
Speaker 1: coming home from her evening out. Then, he says, he

601
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:23,399
Speaker 1: goes back to sleep and then is woken up by

602
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 1: a woman's screams and he was able to tell that

603
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:31,279
Speaker 1: the screams were coming from above him and that it

604
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 1: was Amy. He tried to find his phone but couldn't,

605
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:35,719
Speaker 1: so he couldn't call the police. He tried to get

606
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 1: upstairs and couldn't and he ended up having to climb

607
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,320
Speaker 1: a fence to get to a neighbor to be able

608
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:43,479
Speaker 1: to get her some help. And when the police came,

609
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 1: that's when they found her Amy Harwick, on the ground

610
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 1: after being tossed from her balcony. Now in the apartment,

611
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 1: there were several things that were found. She had a

612
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:01,759
Speaker 1: rosary and it was bro and the beads were scattered

613
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,759
Speaker 1: in multiple rooms of her apartment, which tells us that

614
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:10,839
Speaker 1: this assault happened basically all over the apartment. And then

615
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 1: there was another very potent piece of evidence that was found,

616
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:21,239
Speaker 1: and that was a syringe full of nicotine. How do

617
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:26,239
Speaker 1: you get a syringeful of nicotine when we know that

618
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:31,800
Speaker 1: Harrowick did not do drugs, did not smoke. This obviously

619
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:37,479
Speaker 1: was not hers, but brought allegedly, police say, by hers house. Yeah,

620
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 1: you know, a few years ago, we would have been

621
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 1: scratching our head a lot more over this. You know,

622
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 1: the presence of this nicotine filled syringe is what the

623
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 1: police have kind of identified this as. But nowadays, where

624
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 1: you have people that are vaping, they're vaping liquids, and

625
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 1: you know, nicotine is a component, it's not that difficult

626
00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 1: to get. The question is how was it acquired from

627
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:04,719
Speaker 1: where was it acquired and how was it drawn up?

628
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 1: Because they specifically say syringe, which means that more than

629
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 1: likely that there is a needle that's associated with this.

630
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 1: And one of the things it's quite fascinating with this

631
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 1: is that the syringe was actually located out on the balcony.

632
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 1: You know, the balcony that we've mentioned now several times.

633
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 1: That she went over the side on why would it

634
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 1: be there was the perpetrator attempting to administer this to her,

635
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:36,440
Speaker 1: and Jackie, you've mentioned the broken rosary beads. The beads

636
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:39,879
Speaker 1: led from what are being called her TV room, through

637
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:43,399
Speaker 1: her bedroom and again out onto the balcony. So you've

638
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:47,839
Speaker 1: almost got this trail of breadcrumbs, if you will, evidentiary

639
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:50,279
Speaker 1: breadcrumbs that are giving you an indication of what may

640
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 1: have happened. But let's get back to that nicotine syringe

641
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:57,360
Speaker 1: of your purpose to use nicotine in order to do

642
00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 1: harm to an individual. I think that you're going to

643
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 1: need an injection of about sixty milligrams for an adult

644
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 1: that you know might weigh about one hundred and twenty pounds.

645
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 1: And you know what kind of effect Well, first off,

646
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:13,800
Speaker 1: it's with a concentration of nicotine. It's going to blow

647
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:17,880
Speaker 1: your your blood pressure up through through the roof and

648
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:19,960
Speaker 1: it will cause you to have a cardiac potentially a

649
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 1: cardiac event. You know, it's kind of certainly to my

650
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:26,520
Speaker 1: way of thinking, this is certainly kind of an interesting

651
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 1: way of going about taking somebody's life. Nicotine is something

652
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:32,759
Speaker 1: that we do in fact screen for it's in a

653
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 1: standard panel. You hear a lot, you know how many

654
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:37,920
Speaker 1: times if we talked about on Nancy Show, where they'll say, well,

655
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 1: it's pending toxicology. Well, nicotine is one of the things

656
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:44,280
Speaker 1: that some offices actually screened for in their standard panel.

657
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 1: And you say, why do you need to know nicotine, Well,

658
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 1: it gets to the lifestyle of the individual. What are

659
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:51,759
Speaker 1: they engaged in, you know, what are they taking into

660
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:55,239
Speaker 1: their body? And Amy had no history of cigarette use,

661
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 1: didn't have any history of vaping. She was not a druggie,

662
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,759
Speaker 1: didn't use drugs, and she's also a teetotaler as well.

663
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's been mentioned, but she didn't

664
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 1: imbibe with alcohol. So apparently she led a pretty clean

665
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 1: lifestyle was relative to what she was going to be

666
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,759
Speaker 1: putting into her body. To that point, the corner has

667
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 1: not indicated at all that there was any nicotine found

668
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:24,280
Speaker 1: in her post examination, certainly in her toxicology, but it

669
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,440
Speaker 1: does go to a bigger issue here. That means for

670
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:31,280
Speaker 1: me at least that whoever this perpetrator is, they should

671
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 1: up prepared. They showed up to do harm. And if

672
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 1: you're aiming to do harm and you want to use nicotine,

673
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:43,759
Speaker 1: which I'm not going to say it's something it's an

674
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 1: exotic toxin, you know, some exotic fish that you've drawn

675
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 1: some kind of toxic substance from to inject somebody where

676
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:57,720
Speaker 1: it's not exotic like that, but it's atypical. That indicates

677
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 1: to me that you've done some study about this, that

678
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 1: you've kind of planned this out. Well, Joe, hang on,

679
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:07,800
Speaker 1: you wouldn't if you brought a syringe with you filled

680
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:12,440
Speaker 1: with nicotine. You're not intending to use that to get

681
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:16,799
Speaker 1: high or experience some kind of euphoria. That's not what

682
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 1: that would do to your body, right lord, No, No, No,

683
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 1: with lethal concentration of nicotine is deadly. I mean it's

684
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 1: it's deadly. I don't know for whatever purpose you would

685
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:32,400
Speaker 1: use liquified nicotine for drawn up in a syringe. Now, obviously,

686
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:34,719
Speaker 1: you know we've talked about vaping where people want that

687
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:37,840
Speaker 1: boost of nicotine. Because of nicotine, one of the addictive

688
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 1: factors in is it kind of gives you that euphoric

689
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:42,719
Speaker 1: feeling when you take it on in your system, but

690
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 1: that's in smaller dosages. When you're talking to a bump

691
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:50,240
Speaker 1: of something like sixty milligrams and again, they haven't really

692
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 1: released how much was found. But when you start to

693
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:57,239
Speaker 1: talk about, you know, an injection of that amount of

694
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 1: bolus that size, I think that it would give a

695
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,880
Speaker 1: reasonable person pause to think, why in the world would

696
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 1: the syringe be in Amy's home And she doesn't have

697
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 1: a nicotine habit. It's not like I don't think she's

698
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:15,479
Speaker 1: juicing up her nonexistent vapes that she doesn't possess, So

699
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 1: how did it miraculously appear there? And that's a huge question. Well,

700
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 1: when you begin to think about pure nicotine, the only

701
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 1: thing I can think of is that you're either trying

702
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:29,879
Speaker 1: to incapacitate them some way to the point where they

703
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 1: can't fend you off, which would be an odd selection,

704
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:37,839
Speaker 1: I would think, or you're trying to kill them. We

705
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 1: know that Amy Harwick and Gareth purse House dated for

706
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:45,879
Speaker 1: quite some time. We also know that when they broke up,

707
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:51,919
Speaker 1: he began to stalk her. He began to harass her.

708
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:58,839
Speaker 1: Reviews of her business and her practice began showing up

709
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:04,399
Speaker 1: online very detrimental, and she was worried about that. And

710
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:07,799
Speaker 1: again I mentioned earlier she'd had told people, She had

711
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 1: told friends and family that if something happened to her

712
00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 1: it was him, And in fact, investigators saw that mister

713
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:21,799
Speaker 1: Pearce House had similar scratches and bruises on him, and

714
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:27,040
Speaker 1: his DNA was found at Amy Hardwick's home. Now, of

715
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 1: course they had been dating for quite some time. Still,

716
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:34,399
Speaker 1: how long it had been since he had been at

717
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 1: the home. So how is that going to play in? Joe?

718
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:39,800
Speaker 1: I think that it would like to stay down south.

719
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:42,279
Speaker 1: That dog won't hunt, I think is what that comes

720
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:44,960
Speaker 1: down to, because you know there's been separation. My god,

721
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 1: she had a restraining or on this guy. I'm not

722
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:50,800
Speaker 1: saying that there could not be residual DNA in her dwelling.

723
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 1: But if you've got kind of a robust deposits of

724
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 1: his DNA in that environment, and he's got a restraining

725
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 1: order and she is stating unequivocally that she's afraid of him,

726
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 1: you know, how did it wind up in the apartment.

727
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 1: You talked about how they had charged him with this

728
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 1: idea of laying in weight. If he's laying in weight

729
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:16,400
Speaker 1: at that moment in time, has he been visiting her

730
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:21,360
Speaker 1: at other times? You know? To are there depositions there

731
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:25,640
Speaker 1: within that apartment of his DNA that would give an

732
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:28,680
Speaker 1: investigator pause to think, well, maybe he's been in this

733
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 1: dwelling when she's not here and kind of wandering around,

734
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 1: if you will. But yeah, I think that that would

735
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:41,879
Speaker 1: be very difficult because that relationship has been ended for

736
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:44,840
Speaker 1: some time and there was a lot of violent acting

737
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 1: out with this. I think that there's even a couple

738
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 1: of accounts where he may have pushed drive a vehicle

739
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 1: and all these other things and menacing and threatening and

740
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,399
Speaker 1: you know, all that sort of stalking behavior that goes

741
00:44:56,440 --> 00:45:00,200
Speaker 1: on many times with these kinds of cases. So from me,

742
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 1: I think that that would be very, very difficult to

743
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 1: try to say, well, yeah, his DNA. I mean, you

744
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:08,719
Speaker 1: can say it, you know, but that doesn't mean that,

745
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:10,640
Speaker 1: you know, you're going to get a jury to buy

746
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:14,680
Speaker 1: into that line of logic. Gareth purse House has been

747
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 1: charged with murder and first degree residential burglary. Additionally, he

748
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 1: has been charged with special circumstance allegation of lying in wait.

749
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:28,840
Speaker 1: A judge has ruled that this case can go forward again,

750
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:33,360
Speaker 1: this case has not been adjudicated. Purse House is innocent

751
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:36,319
Speaker 1: until proven guilty by court of law. If he has

752
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:39,120
Speaker 1: found guilty however, of these charges he could be sentenced

753
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:46,319
Speaker 1: to life in prison without the possibility of role. I'm

754
00:45:46,400 --> 00:46:10,279
Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan and this is bodybags