1 00:00:02,200 --> 00:00:03,880 Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, I want to let you know that we 2 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: talk about suicide in this episode. There are some links 3 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: to resources in the episode description if you need them. 4 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:25,639 Speaker 2: I loved everything about my life, and then I joined 5 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 2: this convent to follow God, thinking in my mind that 6 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:32,479 Speaker 2: everyone was gonna love everyone and it was gonna be 7 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 2: double what I had at home, and it was completely different. 8 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 2: I said, meet me up on the third floor, and 9 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 2: then she came up and I just was crying and saying, 10 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 2: I just I can't do this anymore. So I sent 11 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:52,280 Speaker 2: her can you. I don't know how to get out, 12 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 2: like how do I get out. 13 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: From a cocoa punch? And iHeartRadio. This is the Turning. 14 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:06,839 Speaker 1: I'm Erica Lance, Part six, the third Floor. 15 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:13,919 Speaker 3: I'm Sue Weber. Do you want like that little brief 16 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 3: bio blah blah or just the whole bio? Okay? So 17 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 3: I'm Sue Weber and who are you? I'm Joan Worcester 18 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 3: And how do you two know each other? We're sisters. 19 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 1: So let me clarify. Joan and Sue are former sisters 20 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:33,680 Speaker 1: with the Missionaries of Charity, but they're also sisters, like 21 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: actual real life sisters. 22 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 3: And we're the same age for thirteen days. 23 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 1: Joan and Sue live in Pennsylvania. They huddle over a 24 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: computer at Jones's house to video chat with me, squeezing 25 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 1: together so they can both fit in the frame. 26 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 3: I'm I'm far more stubborn than you are. Wouldn't you say, Oh, 27 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 3: you're pretty star. We're all stubborn. It's a family trade 28 00:01:58,040 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 3: in a posit way. 29 00:01:59,080 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 2: Yeah. 30 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 3: I don't take a lot of things personally at all. 31 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 3: I'm more sensitive. Yeah, she's much more sensitive. You're super 32 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 3: protective too for people who get hurt. 33 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 2: I seek for justice a lot. That's a commonality, and 34 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 2: I think that has to do with the convent. But 35 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:20,080 Speaker 2: I've come to seek justice and truth in everything that 36 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 2: I do and say. 37 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 1: Joan, the younger sister, has a certain gentleness. Sometimes she 38 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 1: goes for a while without saying anything. She just listens. 39 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:33,639 Speaker 1: Joan says her intimate relationship with God drives everything she does. 40 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 2: I was the type of person that was always trying 41 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 2: to please God, and then I realize that he loves 42 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 2: us unconditionally, and he loves us no matter where we 43 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 2: are in life. 44 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 1: Sue, the older sister, is bold and open, short haircut, 45 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: big personality. Says it like it is. 46 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 3: I'm out there, I'm like it up for anything. 47 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 1: Joan and Sue both joined the MCS andi. Like every sister, 48 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,239 Speaker 1: they followed the vow of obedience. The vow commits sisters 49 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:03,919 Speaker 1: to the power structure in the MCS You vow to 50 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:07,360 Speaker 1: obey God. By obeying your superior promptly and without question, 51 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 1: you become a pencil in God's hand, as Mother Teresa said, 52 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 1: or as a former sister put it, a tool without 53 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 1: will or opinion of your own. That didn't work for 54 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: Sue and Joan. Their story shows how power works in 55 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 1: the order who has power, what happens as a result, 56 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: and what happens when you push back on it. Sue 57 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 1: would grapple with this from above as a superior Joan 58 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 1: from below. Joan and Sue grew up in the nineteen 59 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: seventies in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, a small city in the middle 60 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 1: of Amish Country. They went to Catholic school. At the time, Joan, 61 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 1: the younger sister, toyed with the idea of going to 62 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 1: college on a track scholarship. But she told me, in 63 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 1: my soul until I die, I know I was meant 64 00:03:56,800 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 1: to be a nun. So in nineteen eighty going to 65 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 1: Franciscan Order of Nuns. She was nineteen years old, but 66 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 1: something was missing. The Franciscans she was with took a 67 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: vow of poverty, but she didn't feel they took it 68 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: far enough. Life was too comfortable. And then she learned 69 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 1: more about Mother Teresa. 70 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 2: I started reading some books about her and I'm like, oh, 71 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:17,280 Speaker 2: my word, she has it. 72 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: While Joan was thinking about switching to the Missionaries of Charity, 73 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 1: Sue beat her to it. She joined the MCS herself. 74 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:26,280 Speaker 1: Sue was twenty and she says the life suited her, 75 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 1: especially helping the poor. When I asked her to tell 76 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 1: me about some of the moments she found beautiful, she 77 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:32,480 Speaker 1: didn't know where to start. 78 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:39,920 Speaker 3: Thousands, literally, there are thousands of incredible, incredible beauty working 79 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 3: among the poor, potentially making a difference in their lives. 80 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 1: Six months in, Sue got some news. Her mistress told 81 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 1: her that Joan was joining the MCS. She was leaving 82 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 1: the Franciscans and coming to the same convent as Sue. 83 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:56,840 Speaker 1: The mistress cautioned Sue, remember no preferential love, even for family. 84 00:04:57,960 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 1: When Joan joined, she learned the MCS had a different 85 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 1: approach for starters, no psychological test. The Franciscans required aspiring 86 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: nuns to take one. 87 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 2: I actually think it's super important because I think what 88 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:13,039 Speaker 2: happens is you're getting women who have mental issues, right. 89 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 2: And mother would just say, just love the sisters no 90 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 2: matter what. But we had to live with. 91 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 1: Them daily life was different too. The MCS were much 92 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:23,599 Speaker 1: more regimented, and she noticed that the MCS didn't hug 93 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 1: each other. 94 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 4: Well. 95 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: The Franciscans she'd been with hugged all the time. 96 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:30,479 Speaker 2: Nobody looks at anybody, nobody talks to anybody. It's grand silence. 97 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:33,160 Speaker 1: And Joan felt the MCS did poverty right. 98 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:38,159 Speaker 2: The poverty was, in my estimation, sensational, like everything we 99 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 2: owned fit in a bucket. I love the simplicity. 100 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 1: Since Joan was new, it was nice to see a 101 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 1: familiar face. 102 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 2: But my sister was rooted into the Missionaries of Charity 103 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:57,799 Speaker 2: way of life, right, So when there was complete silence, 104 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:00,599 Speaker 2: you know, I'd walk by her and kind of wink 105 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 2: and do the things that I would do because I 106 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 2: was just beginning. I'd nod or smile, and you know, 107 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:08,479 Speaker 2: she did do that when it was just her and I. 108 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 3: But when she was in the group. 109 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:12,159 Speaker 2: She would pass me and not look at me, and 110 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:12,720 Speaker 2: I'd be like. 111 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:16,359 Speaker 3: Oh, because I was following the rules. 112 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:18,280 Speaker 2: She was a good nun. 113 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 3: Oh, no, justin in the beginning. 114 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 1: A year later, though, when they'd both be in a 115 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 1: convent in San Francisco, they'd be more flexible. 116 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 3: And then the vishit we did sneak off a lot 117 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 3: of times on the really third floor. On the third floor, well, 118 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 3: my mom would send care packages, like of cookies, and 119 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:43,279 Speaker 3: especially around the holidays. 120 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: They had to turn any packages over to the superior. 121 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: From there it was usually given to the poor or 122 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 1: shared with the whole convent. But sometimes Sue would say 123 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:53,159 Speaker 1: to herself. 124 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 3: Oh, these are my favorites, these are Joan's favorites. So 125 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 3: then I would like hide them and then I would 126 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:01,039 Speaker 3: see Joan in the I'd be like, meet me up 127 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 3: on the third floor. And then we would sit up 128 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 3: on these stacks of mattresses and eat the cookies. 129 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 2: And enjoyed every moment, be worth any penance that. 130 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 3: We never got caught. No we didn't. We're good. 131 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 5: You guys have both referred to penance, and I was 132 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 5: just wondering, when you say penance, are you thinking of 133 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 5: the discipline. Change that kind of thing. 134 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 3: You can go first, good, Okay, So I only share 135 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 3: with very intimate people, which is like my fellow sisters 136 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 3: who left. I don't know if Mom even knows that she. 137 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 2: I think she does. 138 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 3: She does, Okay, well she saw you change. It's a question, 139 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 3: she's true. 140 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 2: Questions. 141 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 3: So I didn't the bracelet. But here's the thing, and 142 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 3: I will make my full confession right here, right now, 143 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 3: that I was not faithful to my penances because I 144 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 3: thought they were It's crazy. 145 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 1: Joan's group of aspirants learned about the discipline a few 146 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: months in. 147 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 2: So then they said, you can go to the bathroom. 148 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 2: But I go into this stall and I just I 149 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 2: couldn't do it. And I heard the sister next to me, 150 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 2: who was totally independences, and she was beating herself. I 151 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 2: could hear her. I'm thinking, dear God, i'd be yelling ow, 152 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 2: you know, And I thought, okay, I gotta do something 153 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 2: because they're probably listening to me as I'm listening to them. 154 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:28,239 Speaker 2: So I hit the sides of the walls of the toilet, 155 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 2: and I was just going, you know, hitting the sides 156 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:33,679 Speaker 2: instead of hitting myself because I couldn't do it, and 157 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 2: then gradually I began to do it, and I then 158 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 2: didn't have problems with it, because I do believe that 159 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 2: if you do sacrifice yourself, I can gain grace with 160 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 2: myself and I can also help someone else's soul. I 161 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 2: believe that to this day. 162 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 3: I believe that. 163 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 1: Soon Joan took the discipline every day. Then she got 164 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,079 Speaker 1: the spiked arm chain, which she wore during mass. 165 00:08:57,240 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 2: So I put it on, and you're supposed to fold 166 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:02,079 Speaker 2: your hands because then it digs into your arm, and 167 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 2: I felt Christ. I felt him as I've never felt 168 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 2: I mean, I felt him. 169 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:18,080 Speaker 3: I think the injustice came when rules were different for 170 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 3: different people. So for example, one of the rules was 171 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:23,680 Speaker 3: you can't go home because we have to live a 172 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 3: life of poverty. But then a regional superior who really 173 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 3: liked another sister, she got to go home for her 174 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 3: parents funeral. Everybody's at the mercy of whoever has power. 175 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 2: They become the voice of God for you. That's all 176 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 2: they keep saying. I'm the voice of God for you 177 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 2: at this moment, under your valive obedience, right, no matter 178 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 2: what it is, and they use God as the weapon. 179 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 1: Joan felt that weapon, and this is where her story 180 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:55,079 Speaker 1: diverged from sus in New York. 181 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 2: I got something in my stomach where I was really, 182 00:09:58,480 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 2: really sick. 183 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:01,560 Speaker 1: She was in so much pain she had to crawl 184 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 1: down the stairs. Her mistress didn't offer support. 185 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 2: I would go to her and said, I'm really sick, 186 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 2: and she would say, just you know, give it to Jesus, 187 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 2: offer it up, you'll be fine. 188 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 1: One day, a volunteer saw Joan and the condition she 189 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:15,319 Speaker 1: was in. 190 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:17,680 Speaker 2: And she said, this little child needs to go to 191 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 2: the doctor. 192 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 1: But Joan's mistress said no, it was the superior's decision 193 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 1: to make and the superior was away. 194 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:29,679 Speaker 2: So I just continued on every day crawling down the stairs. 195 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 2: She'd maybe come down to church no matter what, whether 196 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:33,319 Speaker 2: I was sick or not, I had to come in 197 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 2: to try to work, which I couldn't. 198 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 1: When the volunteer came back, she decided to take charge. 199 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 2: She said, sister, go get your shoes. You're going to die. 200 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 2: You have to go. 201 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 1: Joan found out she had pancreatitis. Left untreated, it can 202 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:49,679 Speaker 1: be really serious. 203 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 2: So that's how it started. 204 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 1: Joan stayed in the hospital for a week. When she 205 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 1: returned to the convent, she says something change with her mistress. 206 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 1: She targeted Joan, and she was relentless. First she accused 207 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: Joan of being too friendly with a man, a seminarian 208 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:10,679 Speaker 1: who had prayed with her while she was in the hospital. 209 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 1: Then of trying to seduce the men coming into the 210 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:14,719 Speaker 1: soup kitchen for meals. 211 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:17,080 Speaker 2: I was like shocked. I was shocked that she was 212 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 2: saying it. I'd never even thought it. I'm not going 213 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 2: after anyone. So she accused me of that and so 214 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 2: much more. 215 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 1: Joan says it was impossible to please her, Like the 216 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: time her mistress told her to teach English to some 217 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:36,320 Speaker 1: sistress from South America. Joan didn't know any Spanish. She says. 218 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:38,560 Speaker 1: She did her best to teach them, but every time 219 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 1: one of the sisters made a mistake in English, the 220 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: mistress made Joan do penance. 221 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 2: So I used to tell them to not speak. I said, 222 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 2: can you please not just speak and save me from 223 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:49,559 Speaker 2: my penances. 224 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 1: Sometimes her mistress made her kneel in silence beside the 225 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 1: refectory table while everyone else ate and talked. These humiliations, 226 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 1: the accusations, the little dig they all piled up. 227 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 2: She would tell me I wasn't holy, tell me I 228 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 2: was prideful. Tell me that Jesus knows you're a fake 229 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:09,599 Speaker 2: and a phony, and all these kinds of things. She 230 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 2: would say to me, right, So. 231 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:14,559 Speaker 1: That must have been really hard to hear. 232 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:16,079 Speaker 2: It was very hard. 233 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 1: Joan began to question her vocation. Is this really what 234 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 1: God wanted for her? After six months, she was sent 235 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 1: to a convent in Chicago for postulancy with a new mistress. 236 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:30,680 Speaker 2: I've thought I died and went to heaven. She was wonderful, beautiful. 237 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: Free from the belittling mistress in New York, Joe could 238 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:35,679 Speaker 1: focus on the parts of religious life that fueled her 239 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 1: visiting shut ins, working at the soup kitchens and shelters. 240 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: But then words spread that the mistress in New York 241 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 1: might be transferred to Chicago. Panic set in. 242 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:48,679 Speaker 2: One sister in my group she took an iron and 243 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 2: burnt her leg as penance. 244 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 1: Penance so the mistress wouldn't be assigned to Chicago. 245 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 2: That's how much people did not like her. 246 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 1: But the penance was in vain. The mistress transferred to Chicago, 247 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:06,079 Speaker 1: and Joan says she started right in again. 248 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 2: She would call me in and she would scream at 249 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 2: me and tell me that I'm very irresponsible, and she 250 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 2: would yell at me and say, you're stupid. 251 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 1: There were times when Joan had no idea what she'd 252 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:19,199 Speaker 1: done wrong. She cried in the chapel and prayed, why. 253 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 2: Is this happening? Why are you allowing this to happen 254 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 2: to me? I only wanted to come and serve you. 255 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 2: I was angry and hurt and sad, and I was 256 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 2: all of those. 257 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 1: Finally, Joan spoke with her superior, the nun above her mistress. 258 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 1: She tried to explain it all, but the superior told 259 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:38,200 Speaker 1: Joan to forgive her mistress. 260 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 2: She said, can you try and love her? I said, okay, 261 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:41,320 Speaker 2: I'll try. 262 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 1: But there was only so much Joan could take. She 263 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:47,319 Speaker 1: was at a breaking point, so she turned to the 264 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 1: one person she thought could change things, Mother Teresa. When 265 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 1: Mother Teresa visited, Joan had a one on one meeting 266 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 1: with her. She says. She told Mother Teresa everything that 267 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: happened with her mistress. 268 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 2: And I was crying and sobbing, and I said, I 269 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 2: don't I don't think Jesus wants to hear. Mother. I 270 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 2: don't know what to do, And she said, Sister Maria 271 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 2: Fatima be only all for Jesus. And of course in 272 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 2: my head, I'm thinking, really, that's all you got. That's 273 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 2: what you're going to tell me. You're not going to 274 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 2: take this evil woman away from me. You're not going 275 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 2: to stop this abuse. You're not going to do anything 276 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 2: about it. You're just going to let me continue to suffer. 277 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 2: That's how I say no. I was thinking I'd say 278 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 2: a word. It's mother, Teresa. You know what I mean. 279 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 2: I say a word. That's the difference between me and 280 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:35,280 Speaker 2: my sister. My sister would have told her. I would not. 281 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 3: I just skip quiet. 282 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:38,240 Speaker 2: I just accepted it. 283 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 1: By now, Joan had been in the order for a year, 284 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 1: it was time to become a novice, which for her 285 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 1: meant to transfer to San Francisco, the same convent as Sue. 286 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 1: Before she left, she had a meeting with her mistress. 287 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 2: And she said, I know that I've been very very 288 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 2: hard on you. I wanted to break your spirit. I 289 00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 2: wanted you to become humble because I know you're going 290 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 2: to be something great in this community. And I said 291 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 2: to her, and I'm going to tell you something. You 292 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 2: as a mistress have the power to make or break 293 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 2: a vocation, and you have broken mine and. 294 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 1: You live with that. In California, Sue had no idea 295 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 1: what her younger sister was going through. Even now that 296 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 1: they were in the same convent, they couldn't really talk 297 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: about it. Joan hung on, but she was fragile. And 298 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 1: then she got a package from her mom. It was 299 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 1: full of family photos. 300 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:38,400 Speaker 2: Pictures of our family reunion. And I think because I 301 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 2: was struggling so much there at that moment, that when 302 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 2: she sent those pictures, it was a trigger for me. 303 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 1: So that day Joan found her big sister and told 304 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 1: her to go to their spot. 305 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 2: I said, meet me up on the third floor. And 306 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 2: then she came up and I just was crying and saying, 307 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 2: I just I can't do this anymore. 308 00:15:56,840 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 3: I know me too, because we're both going to be 309 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 3: crying right here. 310 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 2: And so I said to her, can you I don't 311 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 2: know how to get out, Like, how do I get out? 312 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 3: You could tell that she was suffering, like you could 313 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 3: just physically tell she was suffering, and I was super 314 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 3: clear if she stayed, it would have been so massively unhealthy. 315 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 2: And she said, the only way you can get out 316 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 2: is if you say that you can't live the celibate life, 317 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 2: because every other way they would talk you into staying. 318 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 2: So I went down to the sister and I said, 319 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 2: I can't live the celibate life, like every time I 320 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 2: go on a tram car look at guys. 321 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 3: It was all lies. It wasn't true. 322 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 2: But I told her that, and she said, if you 323 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 2: would have said anything else, I would have asked you 324 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 2: to stay. But because you said you can't live the 325 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 2: celibate life, I understand that that's a gift from God. 326 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 2: And from there it was kind of quick, like call 327 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 2: your parents and I said to meet me and that 328 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 2: I was getting on this flight. And then it was 329 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:05,119 Speaker 2: all like kinda quietly done, like hush, hush, go down 330 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 2: and get clothing. At this time, I was super skinny 331 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 2: and kind of sickly looking, but I put clothing on, 332 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:13,119 Speaker 2: and I still felt that I was called. 333 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:19,640 Speaker 3: She truly felt called. And then there was no healthy 334 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 3: soil for that call to grow. 335 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:28,160 Speaker 2: The saddest part for me was that my soul didn't 336 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:30,439 Speaker 2: want to leave because I loved the work and I 337 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 2: loved the prayer. I loved the whole life. But mentally 338 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 2: I was losing jone. And then I went into the 339 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 2: chapel and my name was sister Maria Fatima, and everybody 340 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:54,879 Speaker 2: there was singing this Our Lady of Fatima's song, and 341 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,439 Speaker 2: I was kneeling and I was crying. It was like 342 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:01,639 Speaker 2: I was having an out of body experience. When I 343 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 2: walked out the door, I left my soul in the chapel. 344 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:07,440 Speaker 2: The very depth of my soul was still there because 345 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 2: I didn't really want to go, but my body was 346 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:11,120 Speaker 2: taking me out. 347 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,679 Speaker 3: And it was so painful to watch. And then for 348 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:19,920 Speaker 3: me the fear of like is that going to happen 349 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:20,159 Speaker 3: to me? 350 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:20,919 Speaker 2: Like? 351 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 3: Am I going to lose myself? 352 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 1: Even though Joan left, Sue stayed. She progressed through the 353 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 1: ranks of the order, took her first vows, took her 354 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:50,680 Speaker 1: final vows, She became a superior, and she stayed in 355 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:53,159 Speaker 1: the MC's for over a decade, working all over the 356 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:57,199 Speaker 1: country in women's shelters and soup kitchens. Sue says her 357 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: outspoken nature helped and she knew how to navigate the system, 358 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 1: Like the time Mother Teresa visited the EMC house in 359 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 1: Baton Rouge, where Sue was running a summer camp. 360 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 3: She'd be like, how's it going, And I basically lied, 361 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 3: I basically said, oh, it's just really hard because I 362 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:14,920 Speaker 3: knew she went transfer me. Wow. But if I would 363 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 3: have went in and said, oh I love it here, 364 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 3: and I probably would have got transferred. 365 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:22,199 Speaker 5: You kind of learned the code to continue doing what 366 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 5: you wanted, because I've definitely heard from other people, you know, 367 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 5: expressing a lot of enthusiasm for something and then getting 368 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:31,119 Speaker 5: pulled off to that job, like, oh, she's enjoying that 369 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 5: too much. 370 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:36,199 Speaker 3: Yes, I think that happened a lot. And I'm super 371 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:38,440 Speaker 3: intuitive in that way, so as soon as I know 372 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 3: the code, I'm in. 373 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 1: Sue had been an EMC for about ten years. When 374 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:45,440 Speaker 1: she became a superior, she was transferred to the MC 375 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: eight's hospice in San Francisco. It was a three story 376 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 1: wooden house. The sisters lived on the first floor. 377 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:56,199 Speaker 3: So when I first got there, there were six of 378 00:19:56,280 --> 00:20:02,120 Speaker 3: us total, and there were three that I would say 379 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 3: could function and carry out duties well, and there were 380 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:09,400 Speaker 3: three that were really struggling. 381 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 1: First, she had to learn to manage the house with 382 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:15,160 Speaker 1: no training. So you kind of go in blind. 383 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 3: You don't kind of go in blind. You go in blind. 384 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:20,199 Speaker 3: Just pray and you'll get the grace to do what 385 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 3: needs to be done. 386 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 1: So she relied on her intuition. In the hospice, it 387 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:27,400 Speaker 1: was rewarding to care for these men with aides who 388 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:27,919 Speaker 1: were dying. 389 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:33,439 Speaker 3: Most of these men were rejected from their families. Like 390 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 3: when we tried to reach their families, they didn't want 391 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:39,359 Speaker 3: anything to do with it. I mean that was the 392 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:44,360 Speaker 3: early nineties. The stigma was still there. This one young man, Lamont, 393 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:50,640 Speaker 3: and he was young, beautiful, funny. We contacted his family. 394 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:53,359 Speaker 3: I mean at this time, he couldn't get up, he 395 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:55,960 Speaker 3: couldn't sit up. I mean, he was completely bedridden. And 396 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 3: so I said to him, hey, I have a surprise 397 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:02,120 Speaker 3: for you. Said what First, I just brought his mother 398 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 3: and he just burst into tears, and she burst into tears, 399 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 3: and then she came over and held him almost like 400 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 3: a child again. I got underneath him and held him 401 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:15,640 Speaker 3: and just kept kissing him and telling him how much 402 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 3: she loved him. And oh, he sobbed, sobbed, sobbed, sobbed. 403 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 3: And then the siblings came in and they were a 404 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:27,440 Speaker 3: very exuberant family, and so you would just hear him 405 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,480 Speaker 3: laughing and they would sing, and then for like three 406 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 3: days it was just like party time. It was so sweet. 407 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:38,679 Speaker 3: The mom had put an eight track tape. We had 408 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:40,440 Speaker 3: a little tape recorder thing, and she put the eight 409 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:44,679 Speaker 3: track tape in and hit the button. This voice and 410 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:48,120 Speaker 3: song was well. It gave me chills, and I said 411 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:53,360 Speaker 3: to her, that is so beautiful, and she goes, that's Lamont. 412 00:21:55,920 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 3: He had an exquisite voice, and then he passed away 413 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:04,879 Speaker 3: like like a day after that. 414 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 1: As a superior, Sue is now technically the direct voice 415 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:19,440 Speaker 1: of God because she never thought of it that way. 416 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 1: Now she could make her own rules, She could eat 417 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 1: what she wanted, even for relationships outside the convent. Having 418 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:27,919 Speaker 1: power for the first time in years let her to 419 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 1: act in ways she didn't expect. 420 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:34,639 Speaker 3: When you are in an organization that suppresses the human 421 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 3: spirit in the ways that it had done, you always think, 422 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 3: you know, if I was superior, I would never act 423 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 3: like that. I would be kind, I would listen. And 424 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 3: what you realized is the second you became superior, you 425 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 3: had a lot of freedom and power that was suppressed 426 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:54,879 Speaker 3: for many, many years. 427 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 1: One time a nun under Sue's supervision told her she 428 00:22:58,560 --> 00:22:58,920 Speaker 1: was sick. 429 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 3: She would say, I can't do X whatever, But I 430 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 3: remember going, yes, you can. You're not that sick, and 431 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 3: I had the power to make her do those things. 432 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 1: One night, while the sisters slept, Sue snuck out to 433 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 1: the chapel, just sat alone in the quiet. 434 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 3: And all of a sudden, there was this moment of 435 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 3: my God, you are being exactly you were doing and 436 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,719 Speaker 3: being exactly the things you said you weren't going to 437 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:29,159 Speaker 3: be or do. What is wrong with you? You know 438 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 3: you're wielding power, the whole infamous absolute power corrupts absolutely. 439 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:36,920 Speaker 1: That you've had absolute power. 440 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:41,919 Speaker 3: In that microcosmo absolutely, and then I shifted completely. 441 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 1: Sue decided to change her whole approach. She'd listen, not 442 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 1: reprimand not humiliate. She'd start with kindness. But she was 443 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 1: about to learn that her absolute power wasn't really absolute. 444 00:23:57,640 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 1: One day, Sue got a call from Mother Teresa about 445 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,160 Speaker 1: a tree answer A knew Nune was coming to work 446 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:03,719 Speaker 1: at the hospice. 447 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:05,679 Speaker 3: And she said, I'm sending you sister so and so. 448 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,399 Speaker 3: She's a gift from Jesus and you just need to 449 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:13,720 Speaker 3: love her. I mean the standing joke as superiorors, where 450 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 3: if you get a phone call from Mother or a 451 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 3: regional superior and they say, oh, we have a gift 452 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:22,919 Speaker 3: for you we're going to send a sister to your house. 453 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 3: That was a big red flag because that was like, oh, 454 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 3: we're getting somebody who's they're struggling somewhere else and they're 455 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:34,359 Speaker 3: moving them. So it was a standing joke. We're like, eh, 456 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 3: you could just keep the gift. So this sister comes in. 457 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 3: Now we're in a wooden building with non ambulatory patients 458 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:50,680 Speaker 3: on the second floor, no elevators, no nothing, like if 459 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,159 Speaker 3: there's a fire, you have to carry them down the 460 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 3: stairs and out the door. Okay. I think it was 461 00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,359 Speaker 3: like day three and everybody's in bed and we all 462 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 3: sleep in a common dormitory. 463 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:07,439 Speaker 1: And Sue wakes up. She smells something, maybe smoke, so 464 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:08,399 Speaker 1: she hops off her. 465 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,960 Speaker 3: Cot I'm like throwing on my sorry, and I fly 466 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 3: past the chapel and out of the corner of my 467 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:16,920 Speaker 3: eye I catch flames. 468 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 1: She rushes into the chapel. The new sister is inside. 469 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 3: The sister had taken all the trash and put it 470 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 3: under the altar and lit it on fire and was 471 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:34,160 Speaker 3: just kneeling there, staring into the fire. And I don't 472 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 3: know why I didn't panic, but I didn't, And so 473 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 3: I went next to her and I was like, sister, 474 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 3: do you know that there's there's a fire under the altar? 475 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:47,359 Speaker 3: And she turned to me and she took me right 476 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 3: in the eye and she goes, do you know I 477 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:54,639 Speaker 3: am possessed? And I said, I don't know about that, 478 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 3: but I know I have to put that fire. 479 00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:02,119 Speaker 1: Out next morning. The sister tells Sue she has no 480 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 1: memory of the fire, but then she does it again. 481 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 2: Soon. 482 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,440 Speaker 1: Sue says, this sister is setting fires every few days. 483 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:12,639 Speaker 1: Of course, Susa wreck she's losing sleep. She doesn't know 484 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 1: what to do. She calls her regional superior, who says, 485 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 1: just talk to her, but that doesn't help, so she 486 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:24,119 Speaker 1: calls mother, Teresa. Sue suggests sending the sister to a psychotherapist. 487 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 3: And I said, I'm really struggling, and mother said, just 488 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 3: give her time, sister, and just keep loving her. And 489 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 3: when I hung up, I had great clarity, There's no 490 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:39,160 Speaker 3: way that I'm going to be able to manage this. 491 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 1: While all of this was happening with Sue, Joan had 492 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,639 Speaker 1: to make a new life when she left the MC's 493 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:48,439 Speaker 1: Joan did the only thing she could do with no 494 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,680 Speaker 1: money and no practical work experience and really no sense 495 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:55,080 Speaker 1: of what was possible. She went home to Lancaster, Pennsylvania, 496 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,720 Speaker 1: but her mistress's words followed her. She says they were 497 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 1: like tapes, these memories of every terrible thing her mistress said, 498 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 1: playing over and over. 499 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:07,240 Speaker 2: Jesus knows you're a fake and a phony. You're stupid, 500 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:08,640 Speaker 2: serves you right. 501 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,920 Speaker 1: Joan still felt called to be a nun. She went 502 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,720 Speaker 1: to church, but now she felt like an impostor. 503 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 2: And then people would come to me and say, you're 504 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 2: so holy. I would leave that church and go to 505 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,679 Speaker 2: another church so that no one would know me, and 506 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,440 Speaker 2: so I could not be noticed. And that's the worst 507 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,880 Speaker 2: thing that to this day, I don't want to be noticed. 508 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 1: There is another tape that played in her head, the 509 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,240 Speaker 1: words of one of her confessors. That's a priest you 510 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,960 Speaker 1: confess your sins to, or who serves as a spiritual guide. 511 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:41,400 Speaker 4: Father. 512 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,719 Speaker 1: Donald McGuire was a Jesuit priest. He was convicted of 513 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,200 Speaker 1: sexually abusing boys and eventually sentenced in two thousand and 514 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,399 Speaker 1: nine to twenty five years in prison, but before that 515 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 1: he was often assigned as a confessor for mc sisters, 516 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,879 Speaker 1: including Sue and Joan. Years before he was sentenced, Donald 517 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 1: Maguire told Joe some thing that would haunt her. 518 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:03,439 Speaker 2: And he said to us, if you make it to 519 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 2: the novitiate and you leave, you'll have handicapped children, you'll 520 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:11,919 Speaker 2: get divorced, and bad things will happen to you because 521 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 2: God wants you here. 522 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,000 Speaker 1: This stuck with Joan because she had made it to 523 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,199 Speaker 1: the Navisia and left. Once she did, she felt like 524 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 1: Father Maguire's warnings started to come true. 525 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 2: I went home in January. Now, mind you, for the 526 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 2: last two years, no love, no nothing. I met this man. 527 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,399 Speaker 2: He said he loved me, went to church with me, 528 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 2: the whole nine yards. 529 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 1: Eventually they got married. 530 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 2: I had this huge wedding. Nuns were singing in my wedding. 531 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 2: I mean it was huge. 532 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 1: But Joan wasn't happy for long. She says. The relationship 533 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 1: bended horribly after three months. 534 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,600 Speaker 2: Okay, so now here I am an ex nun and 535 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 2: a man leaves me and he said to us, if 536 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 2: you leave, you'll get divorce, You'll have handicapped children, and 537 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 2: bad things will happen to you. So I thought, okay, 538 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 2: I can't be a nun. I can't be married. So 539 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 2: I went up to this place we have called Peckwi Pinnacle. 540 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 1: She hiked through the woods up to an overlook on 541 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 1: a tall hill near home. She could see water and 542 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:25,320 Speaker 1: trees stretched out below. This place was special to Joan. 543 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,720 Speaker 1: She used to talk to God here. It was where 544 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: she felt her call to religious life. This time was different. 545 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 2: I was going to jump right kill myself because God 546 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 2: bus hate me. So when I went up there, I 547 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 2: went to jump, and a snake slithered up in front 548 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:55,360 Speaker 2: of me. And I hate snakes, so I was scared 549 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 2: to death. So I ran back to my car and 550 00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 2: got in my car and then went back home. Hi, beauty, Carol, 551 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:16,480 Speaker 2: do you want to meet Erica. Let's go meet Erica. 552 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 2: Look here, look, look there's Erica. Now. 553 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 1: Joan is a mother and a grandmother. Her daughter, Hannah, 554 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 1: has a toddler and they live next door. 555 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 2: I try to live in God's will and let God 556 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 2: unfold the will. So right now the will for me 557 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 2: is to be a great mom and a grandmother, and 558 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 2: I lead a company. 559 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 1: She remarried to a man she calls kind and patient 560 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 1: named Tom. 561 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 2: Before we got married, I said, don't marry me because 562 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:43,720 Speaker 2: I can never love you the way you deserve to 563 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 2: be loved. Because I love God ultimately to the nth degree. 564 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 2: God is what I love the most, and that's where 565 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 2: I spend most of my time. 566 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 1: But that didn't deter Tom, and he just said, no, 567 00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 1: I you know I love you. Joan made a life 568 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 1: outside the convent. She built a small chapel for prayer 569 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 1: in her backyard. She lived her faith in a different way. 570 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 1: And then one day someone showed up in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, 571 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 1: a woman in a white sari with blue stripes. It 572 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 1: was her sister, Sue. In the years before Suepper returned 573 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 1: to Pennsylvania, her time as a superior had brought her 574 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 1: a step deeper into the organization. It also gave her 575 00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 1: a new vantage point. 576 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:02,680 Speaker 3: When I became superior and I had more time to think. 577 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 3: That's opened the door to really question a lot of things. 578 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 1: She already had a growing list of concerns about the 579 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 1: missionaries of charity, like how sisters were treated and how 580 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,360 Speaker 1: sisters and leadership roles used their authority. 581 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 3: So you have sisters who were amazing and in my opinion, 582 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,960 Speaker 3: didn't even wield power, and then you had sisters who 583 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 3: wield it to the empth degree. You know, everybody's at 584 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:32,000 Speaker 3: the mercy of whoever has power. 585 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 1: There was something else that bothered her. She thinks Mother 586 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,120 Speaker 1: Teresa founded this order based somewhat worked for Mother Teresa, 587 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,680 Speaker 1: she got to follow her calling, she founded her own order, 588 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 1: she established the rules. The Missionaries of Charity was an 589 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 1: extension of her personality and drive. But the way Sue 590 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,479 Speaker 1: saw it, the sisters inside this order couldn't follow their 591 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 1: own calling, just obey, just follow assignments, regardless of feelings. 592 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 1: Sue says, this one size fits all doesn't work, especially 593 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:06,240 Speaker 1: for a group of women from around the world. One 594 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 1: former sister told me a convent she was in had 595 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 1: something like twenty seven nationalities all living together. It sometimes 596 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 1: led to language and cultural issues. So you tried to 597 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 1: explain that to Mother Teresa. 598 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 3: Trying to get her to understand that everybody is not 599 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 3: the same, Like everybody's coming in, all of us with 600 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:33,600 Speaker 3: our baggage, and in her mind, the second you crossed 601 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:39,200 Speaker 3: over the threshold to the order, all of that disappears, 602 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 3: or it should disappear. And in the utopia of life, 603 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 3: that would be lovely winded, like right, everybody just goes 604 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:53,720 Speaker 3: in and then we all just love each other. 605 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 1: Instead, Sue saw sisters struggle. They were tired and stressed 606 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 1: and grappled with language barriers. Some needed psychological care, and 607 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:05,680 Speaker 1: no one seemed to fix the problems. 608 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:13,399 Speaker 3: I realized that the order was wired that you had 609 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:20,280 Speaker 3: very little time to think, so you had your mourning 610 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:24,439 Speaker 3: prayer and your adoration. I can't speak for anybody else, 611 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:26,920 Speaker 3: but all I ever did was worked really hard not 612 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:28,960 Speaker 3: to fall asleep during that time. 613 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,000 Speaker 5: I've heard that from a number of people, which. 614 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 3: Should have been the time where you can think and 615 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:37,760 Speaker 3: have your thought process. If you're in a bad relationship, 616 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:41,120 Speaker 3: if all your energy is in the bad relationship, you 617 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 3: don't have the capacity to look at it through another lens. 618 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,000 Speaker 3: I could no longer live what I felt I was 619 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:49,719 Speaker 3: being called to. 620 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 1: At one point, Sue learned about a letter Mother Teresa wrote. 621 00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:01,120 Speaker 3: She was struggling with do I serve this sisters or 622 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 3: do I serve the poor? And I will never forget this. 623 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 3: She wrote a letter to the pope, and the Pope 624 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:11,280 Speaker 3: wrote back, and this is what he said, give necessary 625 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,960 Speaker 3: care to your sisters and loving care to the poor. 626 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 3: And I was like, WTF, seriously, that is insane, Like 627 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 3: give like the very people who are carrying out your work. 628 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 3: The reality is without her sisters, the order doesn't exist. 629 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,239 Speaker 3: Women who were willing to dedicate their life to the 630 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:38,080 Speaker 3: service of the poor. You're going to give them necessary 631 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:42,759 Speaker 3: care only, and you're giving loving care to the poor. Yeah, 632 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:44,640 Speaker 3: I want I went off the deep end on. 633 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,600 Speaker 5: That one, because you wanted loving care for the sisters. 634 00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:52,520 Speaker 3: Yes, because anybody understands humanity. You can't give what you 635 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:56,040 Speaker 3: don't have. So if you have an order of sisters 636 00:35:56,080 --> 00:36:02,799 Speaker 3: who are not being filled with love, how are they 637 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,640 Speaker 3: going to be loving? And you see that in houses 638 00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:10,920 Speaker 3: where we've been accused and rightly so, of mistreating people. 639 00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:15,120 Speaker 3: And for me, it wasn't about these sisters are bad people. 640 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:20,399 Speaker 3: They were empty. They were empty, and you can't live 641 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:22,200 Speaker 3: that kind of a life if you're empty. 642 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 1: By nineteen ninety three, Sue felt like she was on 643 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:30,719 Speaker 1: the verge of a breakdown, so she asked for a 644 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,799 Speaker 1: temporary leave. She went back to her parents' house in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, 645 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,680 Speaker 1: still wearing the sarry. She kept her empty rituals. She 646 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 1: rose early, she prayed. But something had changed. Maybe she 647 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:46,920 Speaker 1: wasn't called to life in the convent anymore, but someone 648 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:49,280 Speaker 1: else did feel the call Joan. 649 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:52,360 Speaker 2: I still felt that I was called no matter what, 650 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:55,239 Speaker 2: and I don't think it ever changes for me. It 651 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:59,279 Speaker 2: never has changed, and I fight that constantly. 652 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,160 Speaker 1: So it was hard for her to see Sue back 653 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,120 Speaker 1: in their parents' house dressed in the blue and white 654 00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:05,759 Speaker 1: sorry a superior. 655 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:08,120 Speaker 2: When I left the Missionaries of Charity, I kept a 656 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:11,280 Speaker 2: lot to myself. Again, I don't share a lot with people. 657 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:13,200 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm surprised I'm sharing what I'm sharing with you. 658 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:17,960 Speaker 2: I think at one point I felt weak that I 659 00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:22,919 Speaker 2: couldn't do it, and so I was probably a little 660 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,319 Speaker 2: jealous of her that she got to stay in and 661 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:31,320 Speaker 2: she was doing it. And then also and then also 662 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:34,440 Speaker 2: I was a little hurt because I guess I wanted 663 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:38,040 Speaker 2: her to sway me to stay when I told her. 664 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:38,640 Speaker 3: I was going to leave. 665 00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:41,239 Speaker 2: So for a couple of years, I probably blamed her 666 00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:45,120 Speaker 2: that she didn't think I had a vocation, but I 667 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:48,400 Speaker 2: knew in my soul I did, and so I was 668 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:50,080 Speaker 2: kind of hurt by her. 669 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:51,440 Speaker 3: But it was me. 670 00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:55,480 Speaker 2: It wasn't her. She wasn't intentionally hurting me, but I 671 00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,240 Speaker 2: felt hurt by that because I felt like she didn't 672 00:37:58,239 --> 00:37:59,240 Speaker 2: defend my vocation. 673 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:04,360 Speaker 1: That must have been really hard. Have you talked about 674 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:05,960 Speaker 1: this before? What is it like to hear that? 675 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:10,920 Speaker 3: Sue? I'm not surprised when it makes sense that she 676 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 3: would feel that way for me. It wasn't about saying 677 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:17,440 Speaker 3: somebody had a vocation or not. For me, it was 678 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:19,680 Speaker 3: more of a protective and you're not going to be 679 00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:21,359 Speaker 3: who you are if you stay here. 680 00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:28,000 Speaker 1: After nine months in Lancaster, the reasons for Sue to 681 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:31,840 Speaker 1: leave began to outweigh her desire to stay. She stopped 682 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:34,719 Speaker 1: wearing this Harry. She wasn't going back. 683 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:38,319 Speaker 3: I was recognizing that I was no longer true to 684 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:42,239 Speaker 3: myself and that I couldn't be true to myself if 685 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:43,080 Speaker 3: I stayed in there. 686 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,399 Speaker 1: Mother Teresa asked her for a meeting in Harlem, one 687 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:51,160 Speaker 1: last attempt to change Sue's mind. Joan drove her there 688 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:53,600 Speaker 1: and the two of them walked into the convent together. 689 00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:57,680 Speaker 3: There was a woman who made sure nobody saw me, 690 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:04,040 Speaker 3: snuck me into a poller, and then when all the 691 00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:06,640 Speaker 3: sisters had gone to the chapel, she snapped me from 692 00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:10,440 Speaker 3: the parlor to where mother's room was. Mother had her 693 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:15,520 Speaker 3: head down. I knelt down to get her blessing, and 694 00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:17,600 Speaker 3: she blessed me, and then I sat on the chair 695 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:21,280 Speaker 3: and then she immediately was like, you need to come back. 696 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:24,360 Speaker 3: This is where God's calling you. Mother Mary wants you 697 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:28,080 Speaker 3: hear Mother Teresa. She had all her little axioms, she 698 00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:32,000 Speaker 3: had all her little snippets that were exactly the same 699 00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:35,319 Speaker 3: every single time you went to the table. So I 700 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:38,480 Speaker 3: felt like I was not being heard. I wanted to 701 00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:42,640 Speaker 3: be heard. And finally I said, Mother, I don't know 702 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:44,319 Speaker 3: if I want to come back. I said, things would 703 00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:47,640 Speaker 3: have to really change for me. She said, you need 704 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:52,040 Speaker 3: to come back. Sister Kiera is in Russia. She converted 705 00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:56,239 Speaker 3: this many people to Catholicism, and that just made me like, 706 00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:58,759 Speaker 3: rear up. And I looked her right in the eye 707 00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:02,480 Speaker 3: and I said, yes, and you have over three thousand 708 00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:05,560 Speaker 3: women religious dying in your community. 709 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:09,560 Speaker 1: At this point, Sue was yelling Joan could hear it 710 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:11,239 Speaker 1: from the next room, And. 711 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:15,799 Speaker 3: Then she kind of sat back, pulled up, and then 712 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:17,319 Speaker 3: I really felt like I was being heard. 713 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:21,040 Speaker 1: But by then it didn't matter. Nothing Mother Teresa could 714 00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:32,439 Speaker 1: say would change Sue's mind. She left. Not long after 715 00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:35,320 Speaker 1: she left the convent, Sue went on a spiritual retreat 716 00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:37,400 Speaker 1: to reflect and figure out what to do. 717 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:42,480 Speaker 3: I was doing a three month retreat, silent retreat. I 718 00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:45,600 Speaker 3: was in this tiny, little, like three hundred square foot 719 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:51,719 Speaker 3: cabin in this vast forest and incredible beauty of nature 720 00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:55,600 Speaker 3: and wood burning stove, so all the wood was stacked 721 00:40:55,640 --> 00:41:01,600 Speaker 3: outside and it's winter, and I just took a lot 722 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:04,239 Speaker 3: of books and all written by priests and stuff, and 723 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:07,520 Speaker 3: I started reading this book. There was a section that said, 724 00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:10,879 Speaker 3: there are I forget how many ten, I think ten 725 00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:13,920 Speaker 3: signs that you are in a cult. And I'm reading 726 00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:15,719 Speaker 3: this book and I'm just like, oh my god, this 727 00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:17,920 Speaker 3: is the Missionaries of Charity. This is the missionary And 728 00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:19,799 Speaker 3: I felt like it was the first time I was 729 00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:28,200 Speaker 3: reading something that was like validating my experience. And all 730 00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:30,160 Speaker 3: of a sudden, I get to the end of the 731 00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:33,799 Speaker 3: book and this priest says, a perfect example of a 732 00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:39,560 Speaker 3: non cult is the Missionaries of Charity. I literally get 733 00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:42,800 Speaker 3: up off my sofa. I opened the door. It's snowing 734 00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:48,160 Speaker 3: like crazy. I fling the book out across the lawn. 735 00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,839 Speaker 3: I end up taking all the wood and pitching it out. 736 00:41:51,880 --> 00:42:02,360 Speaker 3: I was livid, like livid. I was like, this is ridiculous. 737 00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:04,040 Speaker 3: So I go back out in the snow looking for 738 00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:06,440 Speaker 3: the book that I threw out. I find it. I 739 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:08,279 Speaker 3: bring the book back in and I sit down and 740 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:11,919 Speaker 3: proceed to write this man a letter and basically say, 741 00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:15,759 Speaker 3: for you to have made a statement like that, never 742 00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:21,360 Speaker 3: having lived in that order is not only dangerous, it 743 00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:22,640 Speaker 3: is untruthful. 744 00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:02,440 Speaker 5: Thanks so much for listening, and stick with us because 745 00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:03,960 Speaker 5: there's a lot more in the coming weeks. 746 00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:08,000 Speaker 4: This is the first time that I have ever encountered 747 00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:13,400 Speaker 4: any form of sexual violation or abuse in the missionaries 748 00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:17,000 Speaker 4: of charity. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. 749 00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:23,040 Speaker 1: The Turning is written by Aleen Lance, Lester and Me. 750 00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:26,560 Speaker 1: Our producers are Allen Lance Luster and Emily Foreman. Our 751 00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:30,320 Speaker 1: editor is Rob Rosenthal. Andrea Assuage is our digital producer. 752 00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:35,200 Speaker 1: Fact checking by Andrea Lopez Crusado. Special thanks to Amy Gaines, 753 00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:39,640 Speaker 1: Sarah Olander, Catherine Joyce, Beth Ann Mcaluso, Travis Dunlap, and 754 00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:43,680 Speaker 1: consulting producer Mary Johnson. Her memoir and Unquenchable Thirst provided 755 00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:48,880 Speaker 1: inspiration for this series. Our executive producers are Jessica Alpert 756 00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:52,759 Speaker 1: and John Parati from Rococo Punch and Katrina Norville from iHeartRadio. 757 00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:56,000 Speaker 1: Our theme music is by Matt Reid for photos and 758 00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:58,799 Speaker 1: more details on the series. Follow us on Instagram at 759 00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:02,200 Speaker 1: Rococo Punch. You can reach out via email to the 760 00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:05,760 Speaker 1: Turning at rococopunch dot com. I America Lands