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Speaker 1: On the Bechdel Cast. The questions ask if movies have.

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Speaker 2: Women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,

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Speaker 2: or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, Zephyn Beast,

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Speaker 2: start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 4: It's me Caitlin, and it's me Jamie. Welcome to our

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Speaker 4: podcast where, for many years now we have covered your

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Speaker 4: favorite movies using an intersectional feminist perspective. Using the Betel

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Speaker 4: test is a jumping off point for discussion. But Caitlin,

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Speaker 4: what is that?

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Speaker 3: Well, it is a media metric created by our best

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Speaker 3: friend Alison Bechdel along with her friend Liz Wallach.

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Speaker 4: Recent convert to knowing the show exists. Alison Bechdel, Yes.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes. There are many versions of the test. The

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Speaker 3: one that we use is this, do two characters of

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Speaker 3: a marginalized gender have names? Do they speak to each other?

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Speaker 3: And is there conversation about something other than a man?

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Speaker 3: And also we like it if it's like an narratively

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Speaker 3: substantial conversation not a problem with today's movie.

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Speaker 4: No, truly, So we won't waste any more time because

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Speaker 4: we've got a rich text today. We are covering the

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Speaker 4: nineteen ninety nine movie All About My Mother with an

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Speaker 4: incredible guests. So let's get her in here.

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Speaker 3: Let's do it. She's a TV writer and author of

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Speaker 3: the new book Cry for Me Argentina My Life, is

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Speaker 3: a failed child star and also you know her from

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Speaker 3: our episode on Home Alone It's tomorrow You're here, Hello, welcome.

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Speaker 4: Back by Wow. Two such similar movies.

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Speaker 1: Guys. I'm desperate to talk about this movie.

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Speaker 4: I'm so excited to hear your thoughts on it because

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Speaker 4: this is my first time seeing it, which what a

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Speaker 4: treat Ooh, I'm so excited to talk about it, but

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Speaker 4: first tell us about your book. Congratulations.

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Speaker 1: First of all, thank you so much. I'm really proud

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Speaker 1: of it. And it's a memoir. It's based on my upbringing.

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Speaker 1: I'm from Argentina and I have very obscene parents and

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Speaker 1: a very kind of depraved, not depraved, but sexually open

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Speaker 1: family who couldn't stay in one place, so we moved

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Speaker 1: from Argentina to the United States, back to Argentina, and

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Speaker 1: then back to the United States, all in the span

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Speaker 1: of my childhood. And in between of those moves, I

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Speaker 1: became a like a child star that was starting to blossom,

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Speaker 1: and once I got my big break, I was pulled

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Speaker 1: away from Argentina back to the US. So the book

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Speaker 1: revolves around that and you know, my crazy parents and yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm so bad at talking about my book, Jamie. Did

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Speaker 1: you have that problem with yours where you're like.

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Speaker 4: Oh, well, yeah, I'm just like, well, you know, hotdog thoughts,

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Speaker 4: what do you think? And then would panic at a

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Speaker 4: whiff of a follow up. I think you did. I

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Speaker 4: think you did great. And it is such a great book.

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Speaker 4: I was just telling Tim Off Mike that I read

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Speaker 4: half of it in the hardcover form and then I

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Speaker 4: read the other half via audiobook, and so I can

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Speaker 4: vouch for both experiences. Do one do booth go nut Sell.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny because I wrote the book thinking like

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Speaker 1: my life was so funny and like every in like

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Speaker 1: it was a comedy book. And halfway through I was like,

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Speaker 1: oh there were issues and I have a lot of

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Speaker 1: unresolved trauma, and so now I'm like, I have to

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Speaker 1: pivot from just like, yeah, the book is it is funny,

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Speaker 1: but there's some real serious issues talked about there too.

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Speaker 4: So but at least you have an incredible therapist.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, and speaking of.

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Speaker 3: Unresolved trauma, all about my mother's true God.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, no shortage of that. What is your history with

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Speaker 4: this movie?

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Speaker 1: Yesterday was my sixth or seventh time watching it. Okay,

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Speaker 1: it's my favorite movie of all times.

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Speaker 4: Oh amazing, Yes, wow, thanks for talking to us about it.

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Speaker 4: What again?

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Speaker 1: It was on the list of like the you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe we can do one of these, and I was

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Speaker 1: like yes. And the first time I watched it, I

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Speaker 1: was on shrooms whoa, And it really just blew my

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Speaker 1: mind in like a deeper like way than I you know,

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Speaker 1: I would have just normally watching it. And then yesterday

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Speaker 1: it was cool because I, for what, I took notes

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Speaker 1: while watching it and I did a little bit of

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Speaker 1: research on it, something that I had never done. And

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Speaker 1: God will get to it. But at this time of

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Speaker 1: my life, when I'm literally today starting IVF, that's another thing, Jamie.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, wow.

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Speaker 1: Today, today, today are my first injections and what it

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Speaker 1: means to be a mother and a caretaker and anyways,

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Speaker 1: you can tell I have a lot to say. But

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Speaker 1: another thing about it, real quick is that I wanted

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Speaker 1: to I was going to suggest we do Avida because

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Speaker 1: I wanted to do something like Argentine because my book,

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Speaker 1: and as I watched it yesterday, I was like, I

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Speaker 1: never realized that the two main characters, Lola and Manuela,

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Speaker 1: they're Argentine.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I assumed that was like a part of that

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Speaker 4: that's yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean I knew she was, but I didn't realize

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Speaker 1: that Lola was as well. And that I realized too.

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Speaker 1: The reason that they immigrated to Spain was because they

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Speaker 1: were escaping the dictatorship in Argentina. Okay, and that was

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Speaker 1: like a brand new thing that I learned yesterday while

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Speaker 1: watching it. So anyways, we can get into it. I

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Speaker 1: just said a lot.

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Speaker 4: No, thank you for trusting us with your favorite booth.

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Speaker 4: I guess, Caitlyn, what is your history with this movie?

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Speaker 3: I watched this movie during the great Caitlin movie binge

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Speaker 3: of two thousand and four two thousand and five, which

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Speaker 3: is when I saw many movies for the first time,

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Speaker 3: and I didn't really remember anything about it because I'd

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Speaker 3: never rewatched it. Mellow dramas are not really my genre,

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Speaker 3: so I didn't feel super compelled to revisit it. But

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Speaker 3: so much time had passed between my first viewing that

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Speaker 3: I kind of just forgot everything about it, so watching

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Speaker 3: it this time was sort of like watching it for

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Speaker 3: the first time, and so it was really interesting to

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Speaker 3: re experience. There's a lot to talk about, especially in

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Speaker 3: the context of our show, because are there women in

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Speaker 3: the movie and are they living their lives and talking

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Speaker 3: to each other?

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Speaker 4: They sure are, Boy, oh boy, don't worry about it.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, I'm excited to discuss. And then, Jamie, you

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Speaker 3: said you had not seen this movie before.

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Speaker 4: I had not seen this movie before. It's been on

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Speaker 4: my list for a long time. I've seen movies from

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Speaker 4: Pedro Almodovar before. I hope I'm saying that correctly, because

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Speaker 4: I have been worried about it all morning, and I

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Speaker 4: also know I mean, I think it's fascinating that his

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Speaker 4: body of work is so built around motherhood in general,

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Speaker 4: and it wild right as if I had more time

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Speaker 4: to prep for this episode, I was like, it would

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Speaker 4: be cool if I had time to watch a almodvar

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Speaker 4: movie about mothers from every decade, because there is one

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Speaker 4: but the work of his that I had seen before.

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Speaker 4: I saw The Room next Door, which came out last year,

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Speaker 4: just a very different movie, very quiet, and then I've

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Speaker 4: seen I always want to say portrait of a lady

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Speaker 4: on fire, and that's just simply incorrect. Not Women on

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Speaker 4: the Verge of a Nervous break But do you see

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Speaker 4: where I's talk.

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Speaker 3: Like Kayden a lot of prepositions.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I was telling Caitlyn last night. The reason

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Speaker 4: I saw Women on the Verge of a Nervous Breakdown.

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Speaker 4: I saw it like ten years ago because there used

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Speaker 4: to be this comedy show that I would do in

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Speaker 4: Boston with this awesome, like very sweet comic West Hazard.

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Speaker 4: It was at a record slash movie store and you

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Speaker 4: would get paid in a DVD basically that Like, the

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Speaker 4: host was like, you should see this movie, and he

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Speaker 4: gave me a very unstable twenty one year old a

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Speaker 4: DVD Women on the Merge of my Nervous Breakdown. He's like,

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Speaker 4: I think this makes sense for you, and it's a

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Speaker 4: great movie and I loved it. But this, yeah, this

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Speaker 4: was my first time. It was all about my mother,

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Speaker 4: and I really enjoyed it. I'm so excited to talk

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Speaker 4: about it.

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Speaker 3: Well, let's take a quick break and then we'll come

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Speaker 3: back for the recap.

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Speaker 4: And oh, we're back, and we're back.

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Speaker 3: Okay, here is the story. We are in Madrid, Spain.

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Speaker 3: We meet Manuela played by Cecilia Roth, who works in

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Speaker 3: a hospital as a nurse and a coordinator who facilitates

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Speaker 3: transplants of organs from organ donors to recipients. She goes

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Speaker 3: home where she lives with her seventeen year old son, Esteban.

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Speaker 3: They watch All About Eve together.

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Speaker 4: I wish I had that experience with my mom. I

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Speaker 4: was like, I want, I want to intensely watch All

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Speaker 4: About Eve with my mom.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 3: She tells her son about how when she was younger,

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Speaker 3: she acted in an amateur theater troupe and performed a

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Speaker 3: streetcar named Desire, which is a show that Manuela takes

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Speaker 3: Esteban to for his birthday. And as they're waiting for

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Speaker 3: one of the actors to come out for a Steban

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Speaker 3: to get her autograph, he asks Manuela about his father,

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Speaker 3: because all Manuela has told him is that his father

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Speaker 3: died before he was born. Then the actor comes out,

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Speaker 3: Uma played by Marisa parades and Esteban runs after her

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Speaker 3: taxi and is hit by a car and killed. Manuela is,

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Speaker 3: of course devastated. She gives her consent for Esteban to

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Speaker 3: be an organ donor, so she's like now on the

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Speaker 3: other side of her job, basically, and his heart is

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Speaker 3: transplanted into another patient's body. She looks at the files

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Speaker 3: to find out where his heart is being taken to,

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Speaker 3: and she kind of like follows the heart on its journey.

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Speaker 4: I really loved that. I loved it. Weirdly reminded me

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Speaker 4: of a Simpson's episode Stay with Me Yea, where like

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Speaker 4: where you start the movie thinking it's gonna go one

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Speaker 4: way and then say, just are like, actually the movie

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Speaker 4: is about this, And I really like that because it's

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Speaker 4: like Also, the whole idea of her following her son's

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Speaker 4: heart is like a thriller I would watch too, right.

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Speaker 1: Totally she and she's like in black glasses and like

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Speaker 1: a turtleneck. You're like, oh, incognito mode, and then it's

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Speaker 1: just the guy walks by and says, ah, I got

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Speaker 1: the heart of a young seventeen year old, and then

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Speaker 1: you never see him again, right, and you're like.

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Speaker 4: And good for you, and I'm happy for you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he walks by. A friend of hers is like, hey, Manuela,

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Speaker 3: I know that grief can look a lot of different ways,

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Speaker 3: but maybe you shouldn't have done that.

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Speaker 4: You gotta leave that guy alone. And she's like fair.

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Speaker 4: I was like that really Yeah, and then the movie

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Speaker 4: kind of starts yeah and is.

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Speaker 3: About something else.

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Speaker 4: I just love that.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Manuela travels to Barcelona to find Steban's other parent, who

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Speaker 3: she had previously left when she was pregnant with Esteban

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Speaker 3: seventeen years ago. She encounters her old friend Agrato, played

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Speaker 3: by Antonio San Juan.

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Speaker 4: Best character in dumb Movie, best performance ever. Yes, love

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Speaker 4: this character.

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Speaker 3: She is a trans woman and a sex worker who

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Speaker 3: is being assaulted when Manuela finds her, so Manuela comes

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Speaker 3: to her rescue, administers some first aid, and asks Agrotto

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Speaker 3: where their mutual friend Lola is. We will eventually gather

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Speaker 3: that Lola is Esteban's other parent, who Agrotto had kind

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Speaker 3: of taken in and was caring for. But Lola recently

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Speaker 3: robbed Agrotto and skipped town. And because Agratto is injured

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Speaker 3: from the assault, she can't do her usual work, so

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Speaker 3: she and Manuela go to see a nun Rosa played

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Speaker 3: by Penelope Cruz for help.

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Speaker 4: Baby. Penelope Cruz too, She's so young, She's.

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Speaker 1: So cute, Like how beautiful can a person be? Oh?

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Speaker 4: She is constantly challenging this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, really.

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Speaker 3: Rosa takes Manuela to her mother's house, hoping that her

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Speaker 3: mother will hire Manuela as a cook, but her mom

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Speaker 3: refuses because she's very judgy and thinks Manuela is a

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Speaker 3: sex worker and doesn't want to be around her. Then

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Speaker 3: Rosa starts feeling nauseous, so Manuela brings her to the

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Speaker 3: apartment she's renting until Rosa's illness passes. We'll put a

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Speaker 3: pin in that. Then Manuela goes to see Streetcar Named

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Speaker 3: Desire again with the same cast as the show she

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Speaker 3: saw with her son in Madrid.

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Speaker 4: She's stronger than me. Yeah, I would never step foot

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Speaker 4: in a theater again. I would forget that art existed.

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Speaker 4: She is such I mean, she's a strong character for

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Speaker 4: all sorts of reasons, but this is one of them,

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Speaker 4: very specific.

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Speaker 3: One for sure. And she approaches Uma, the actor who

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Speaker 3: is Steban, wanted an autograph from Uma is upset because

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Speaker 3: she has recently started dating her co star Nina played

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Speaker 3: by Candela Pena, who had like just run out of

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Speaker 3: the theater, so Uma has Manuela accompany her to find Nina.

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Speaker 3: She says the famous line from Streetcar Named Desire, where

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Speaker 3: she's like I've always depended on the kindness of strangers.

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Speaker 3: Because Manuela is this stranger who just like comes into

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Speaker 3: her dressing room. She's like, oh, you're here, can you

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Speaker 3: help me? So they go looking for Nina, who is

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Speaker 3: dealing with addiction issues. They find her, and Nina drives

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Speaker 3: off in a hurry, with Uma accidentally taking Manuela's purse them.

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Speaker 3: The next day, Rosa pays Manuela a visit to ask

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Speaker 3: if she can rent a room from her. Turns out

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Speaker 3: that Rosa is pregnant and needs a place to kind

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Speaker 3: of hide out during her pregnancy.

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Speaker 4: Like you said, she's pregnant. She'sregnant.

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Speaker 3: She is pregnant, yes, Greg, Yeah, she is with Greg

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Speaker 3: and she needs to hide out during this pregnancy on

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Speaker 3: account of her being a nun and all.

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Speaker 4: There's a lot going on, Yes, she's Every new detail

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Speaker 4: you learn about her is wilder than the last, Yeah.

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Speaker 3: For sure, including that Rosa has gotten pregnant from Lola,

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Speaker 3: the person who had also gotten Manuela pregnant, you know,

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Speaker 3: seventeen or eighteen years prior. I think because of this,

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Speaker 3: Manuela is reluctant to let Rosa stay with her, but

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Speaker 3: she eventually changes her mind and Rosa will move in.

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Speaker 4: Because she's the ultimate mother. Yes, she is the one

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Speaker 4: true mother. Well, I mean there's a lot, there's a

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Speaker 4: vigilian mothers, but she's the mother and.

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Speaker 1: The protector of all.

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Speaker 4: Yes, But I also feel like it gets around so

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Speaker 4: many tropes of like you can see her struggle with

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Speaker 4: stuff and like be like, ah, should I do this?

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Speaker 4: And then like you can see her thinking the performance

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Speaker 4: is so good. Oh this Booe's great.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So then Manuela goes to the theater to get

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Speaker 3: her purse back from Uma, who offers Manuela a job

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Speaker 3: as her personal assistant, and Manuela accepts and starts working

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Speaker 3: like one second later. She then takes Rosa to a

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Speaker 3: doctor's appointment. She has hypertensions, so there's a possibility she

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Speaker 3: could Miscarrie, and she also asks for an HIV slash

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Speaker 3: AIDS test, citing that she works with you know, high

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Speaker 3: risk people, so she wants to have a test. A

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Speaker 3: couple weeks past, another show of a streetcar named Desire

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Speaker 3: is about to start, but Nina, who plays Stella, is

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Speaker 3: drunk and bails at the last minute, so Manuela offers

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Speaker 3: to step in, saying that she can do Nina's part.

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Speaker 3: She knows the lines, and she does a great job,

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Speaker 3: like almost too good of a job.

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Speaker 1: Better.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, she's unreal.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and Uma and Nina are like, wait a minute,

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Speaker 3: how do you know this part so well? What's going on?

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Speaker 4: I appreciate that. She's like, it's like all about Eve.

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Speaker 4: You're like, yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 3: She's like, you're stealing my life and my stardom and stuff.

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Speaker 3: And Manuela tells them about how she took her son

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Speaker 3: to see their play in Madrid a couple months ago,

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Speaker 3: and that he was killed running after their taxi to

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Speaker 3: get UMA's autograph.

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Speaker 4: Oh, and she must have felt like such a asshole

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Speaker 4: for that one. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And Manuela's crying as she tells the miss and she

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Speaker 3: quits her job and runs off.

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Speaker 1: Oh.

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Speaker 3: The next day, Uma comes to Manuela's apartment to ask

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Speaker 3: her to come back to work, but Manuela is like,

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Speaker 3: I can't. I have to take care of Rosa, who

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Speaker 3: has just learned that, in addition to being gregnant, she

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Speaker 3: is HIV positive. Then Agrotto comes over as well, and

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Speaker 3: everyone is sort of like, hey, Agrotto, why don't you

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Speaker 3: take Manuela's job and work for Uma? So that happens

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Speaker 3: and they have like just a nice little gals han they.

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Speaker 1: Get drunk, they eat peanuts or something because there's like

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Speaker 1: shells all over the table.

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Speaker 3: They're laughing, there happened a nice time, so sweet.

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Speaker 4: I love it.

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Speaker 3: Agrotto starts working for Uma. There's still a lot of

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Speaker 3: tension with Nina. She's still dealing with addiction. Then one night,

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Speaker 3: the streetcar show has to be canceled because Uma and

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Speaker 3: Nina get into a fight and nearly kill each other.

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Speaker 3: So instead a Grotto goes on stage and does a

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Speaker 3: comedic monologue about her life.

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Speaker 4: She does like a one woman show. She's like, well

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Speaker 4: I have you here? Yeah, can I workshop something?

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Speaker 1: Probably my favorite, the best part of the movie to

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Speaker 1: me is this monologue, Like it's really great.

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Speaker 3: It's all about the different cosmetic surgeries she has had

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Speaker 3: in order to be quote unquote authentic, and the audience

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Speaker 3: is loving it. They're laughing, they're living, they're loving. And

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Speaker 3: back at home, Rosa's mom, whose name I believe is

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Speaker 3: also Rosa Rosa, comes by for a visit. She learns

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Speaker 3: about Rosa's pregnancy and I believe her HIV diagnosis, and

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Speaker 3: Rosa Senior does not really know how to deal.

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Speaker 4: She's not the ultimate mother. She's a piece of work.

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Speaker 1: I have lots to say about her when the time comes.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, yes. Then Manuela takes Rosa to the

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Speaker 3: hospital for her sea section. On the way, Rosa sees

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Speaker 3: her dog and her father, who doesn't seem to recognize Rosa.

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Speaker 3: It seems like he has dementia of some kind.

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Speaker 4: Oh that scene is really heartbreaking, I know. But the dog,

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Speaker 4: you're oh yeah.

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Speaker 3: Then at the hospital, Rosa says she intends to name

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Speaker 3: her baby Esteban, and that she has figured out that

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Speaker 3: Manuela's son's other parent is also Lola, and Rosa makes

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Speaker 3: Manuela promise that if anything happens to her, Manuela will

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Speaker 3: tell her child everything and not hide anything. And Manuela's like,

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Speaker 3: you can tell your kid yourself, nothing's going to happen

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Speaker 3: to you, which is a death sentence for any character.

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Speaker 3: Because cut to the next scene, it is Rose's funeral.

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Speaker 3: She presumably died during the surgery, and Lola played by

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Speaker 3: Tony Knot, shows up to the funeral to explain why

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Speaker 3: she stole from a grotto to tell Manuela that she

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Speaker 3: is dying and to say goodbye. Lola finds out about

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Speaker 3: her and Manuela's son and wants to see him, but

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Speaker 3: Manuela tearfully explains that.

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Speaker 1: God, I cried at that part.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah. She tells Lola that Esteban was killed in

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Speaker 3: a car accident, and in the span of like two minutes,

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Speaker 3: Lola learns that she had a son and also that

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Speaker 3: that son was tragically killed, and it's just all very devastating.

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Speaker 4: God, It's nothing can prepare you for the last twenty

364
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Speaker 4: minutes of this movie. It is just a It's a

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Speaker 4: lot in a good way, but it's a lot. It is.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Then we cut to Rose's parents' house. Manuela now

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Speaker 3: lives there with baby Steban, working as their cook and

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Speaker 3: taking care of the baby. A month later, Manuela meets

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Speaker 3: up with Lola and brings the baby. There's concern that

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Speaker 3: the baby will also turn out to be HIV positive,

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Speaker 3: but Manuela doesn't seem worried. She also shows photos of

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Speaker 3: older Esteban to Lola, as well as Esteban's journal in

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Speaker 3: which he wrote something on the day that he died

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Speaker 3: that he desperately wanted to meet his other parent, and

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Speaker 3: that's also very heart wrenching. Then we see and a

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Speaker 3: grotto at the theater as Uma is rehearsing for a

377
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Speaker 3: play and they receive a letter from Manuela saying that

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00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:13,840
Speaker 3: living with Rosa's parents was unbearable, so she left Barcelona

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Speaker 3: with baby A Steban, who she is now raising as

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Speaker 3: her own son.

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Speaker 4: I loved, I loved how quickly that's dealt with where

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Speaker 4: she was like, Yeah, so that was obviously fuck a

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Speaker 4: funck that situation. So we got out of there out

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Speaker 4: good for you, truly.

385
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Speaker 3: Yeah, And then we cut to two years later. Manuela

386
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Speaker 3: is returning to Barcelona with toddler A Steban. He has

387
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Speaker 3: neutralized the virus and so doctors want to study him.

388
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Speaker 3: And then Manuela reunites with Uma and a Grotto, and

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Speaker 3: we learned a couple things like that Lola has passed away,

390
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Speaker 3: that Nina left to get married to someone.

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Speaker 1: Else and had an ugly baby, very ugly baby.

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Speaker 4: Fun detail to add it. And that's the end of

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Speaker 4: the movie. Yeah, so let's.

394
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Speaker 3: Take another quick break and we'll come back to discuss.

395
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, where would we like to start here tomorrow?

396
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Speaker 3: Does anything jump out to you?

397
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:27,919
Speaker 1: The first thing I wanted to say is I realized

398
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:32,840
Speaker 1: that Alma Dovar's mother died either while he was shooting

399
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 1: this or like the year it came out, and I

400
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:41,160
Speaker 1: just the dedication at the end killed me. Like starting

401
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,160
Speaker 1: by the end, there's this beautiful dedication. I can't remember

402
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:46,280
Speaker 1: the beginning. It's like for all women who want to

403
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Speaker 1: be actresses, for all something like.

404
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:50,480
Speaker 3: That, actresses who have played actresses.

405
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Speaker 1: Yes, it's very meta the movie. Yeah, and we can

406
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,360
Speaker 1: talk about that too. But then it says, and for

407
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 1: all women who want to be mothers and for my mother.

408
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:07,960
Speaker 1: And that's when I was just like, there are levels

409
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Speaker 1: of mothering and sisterhood in this movie that blow my

410
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:16,200
Speaker 1: mind because it's not so much about mothers, but it's

411
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:21,199
Speaker 1: like caretaking in all its forms anyways, that's amorphous. But

412
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Speaker 1: I just wanted to say.

413
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Speaker 4: That, Yeah, no, I like that was one thing that

414
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Speaker 4: I mean, especially for it's time, Like I was really

415
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 4: pleasantly surprised, and I know that there's stuff to talk about,

416
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:39,239
Speaker 4: but that he so thoroughly understands also just like a

417
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:43,119
Speaker 4: male o to her understanding, like being so open to

418
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 4: not this very prescriptive idea of motherhood. Yes, and in

419
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 4: a world where like even in movies that I love,

420
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Speaker 4: there is usually like the mother character that is sort

421
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:57,720
Speaker 4: of and there she is because she needs to be

422
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 4: there for whatever plot contrive. It's reasons you have, Like

423
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,119
Speaker 4: he clearly has spent a lot of his life thinking

424
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Speaker 4: about what motherhood can look like and how you just

425
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 4: approaches to parenthood in general, yes, what it can look like,

426
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 4: and allowing them to be full people outside of that

427
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 4: role while that role still means a lot to like

428
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 4: it just it just was very I don't know, it's

429
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 4: so thoughtful, but not in a way that felt like, yeah,

430
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:26,680
Speaker 4: they could still be funny and like, you know, hang

431
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 4: out together and get drunk it like do what I

432
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 4: just I just really liked it.

433
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 2: Yeah.

434
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Speaker 1: I think of this movie as partly a comedy because

435
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:41,360
Speaker 1: the funny parts are so funny too. And one thing

436
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about before anything is like his

437
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:49,639
Speaker 1: portrayal of men. To me, it says so much about

438
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 1: how he sees women, because I made a note of this,

439
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,399
Speaker 1: Like the men in the movie are kind of rude

440
00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:02,119
Speaker 1: as hell, Like there's the doctor who is awful to

441
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,080
Speaker 1: Penelope Cruz's character when.

442
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 3: Cold and condescending cold.

443
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 1: Yes, the actor in the play who's like begging Agrado

444
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 1: for a blowjob. Remember that part, Like, oh, yeah, yep.

445
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:17,200
Speaker 4: Yeah.

446
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 3: Basically, he finds out that Agrato was formerly a sex

447
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 3: worker and thinks that gives him license to ask her

448
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:29,919
Speaker 3: for a blowjob because he's feeling on edge, and she's like,

449
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:35,400
Speaker 3: I'm retired. Also, this is inappropriate, like what you're like no, yeah,

450
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:37,920
Speaker 3: She's like no, and then he's just like please no.

451
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:38,680
Speaker 5: Yeah.

452
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 1: It's like those are like the main like men's speaking parts.

453
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 1: And then oh, Penelope Cruz's father, who like, there's a

454
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 1: reason symbolically that he has dementia. He is an absent person.

455
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:56,400
Speaker 1: He doesn't like exist for her, and I don't think

456
00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 1: that's just like there's a reason for this. And the

457
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 1: fact that when Penelope Cruise at the end of the

458
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 1: movie sees her father and the dog at the park,

459
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 1: she calls for the dog.

460
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:10,680
Speaker 4: Yeah.

461
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I feel like even with Lola, like as

462
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:20,119
Speaker 1: a parent was completely absent too. I don't know what

463
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 1: this means, but it just says a lot.

464
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 4: I totally agree. It's like physically there, but they're not

465
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 4: emotionally present. And again, it's like there's a gradient to

466
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 4: what that looks like where it's like he's not taking

467
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 4: the easy way out and you know, doing sort of

468
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 4: a copy paste of like everyone is like misogyny the

469
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 4: guy or whatever, where it's like, yeah, which which you

470
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 4: used sometimes you come up? But yeah, like her father's

471
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 4: absence because of I mean, we don't get the specifics

472
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 4: or there's just some men that just are too horny

473
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 4: to function and are like trying to basically assault our

474
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 4: favorite characters, you know, you know. And then we have

475
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 4: two prominent characters, even though we don't meet Lola until

476
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 4: the last i think ten minutes of the movie, who

477
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 4: are trans women and who are also very different characters

478
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 4: as we can get into. But yeah, I mean, just

479
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 4: for a movie that came out in ninety nine is like,

480
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 4: I think, pretty unheard of at the time. Yeah, that's

481
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 4: the thing.

482
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 3: This movie does a better job humanizing different types of

483
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 3: marginalized people than most movies of this time were able

484
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 3: to do, and even movies that came out after this.

485
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 3: But between the characters who are trans women, between the

486
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 3: characters who are women who date women, sex workers, people

487
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 3: living with HIV and AIDS, people dealing with addiction, like,

488
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 3: there's so much more humanization of people who are largely

489
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 3: punched down to and made jokes of and treated as

490
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 3: not human. This movie does the opposite and lets us

491
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 3: get to know these characters and gives them interiority. And

492
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 3: I kept thinking to myself that the events of this

493
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 3: movie and the different circumstances that characters find themselves in

494
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 3: are not unlike what you might see in like a

495
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 3: soap opera or a telenovella.

496
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 1: Yeah.

497
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, but the.

498
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 3: Movie handles these circumstances and even though it is melodrama,

499
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 3: it is way more like earnest and honest and heartfelt.

500
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 3: It never feels overblown or anything like that. Is just

501
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 3: so beautifully done.

502
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 4: And I like that, like throughout, Alma Devar is not

503
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 4: shying away from like citing his sources, Like he's like,

504
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 4: I'm thinking about all of that Eve, I'm thinking about

505
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 4: Street Cardime Desire, and actually like weaves his own influences

506
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 4: into the story in a really cool way.

507
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah. There's also I was writing down all

508
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 1: of the like mentions of other works, and it was

509
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 1: those two and then Music for Chameleons by Truman Capoti,

510
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: which is the book she gives her son, and I

511
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 1: haven't read that. I actually haven't seen all about Eve

512
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 1: or street Car Named Desires, so none of the references.

513
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 4: Did I get you would love all about ev Oh

514
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 4: my god, because I'm not a big street car head,

515
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 4: but all about Eve rips. It's so good.

516
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 1: I'm gonna watch it tonight. Anyways.

517
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, I wanted to talk about Lola because Lola is

518
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 4: a such a complicated character, and I was again because

519
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 4: this movie is so particular, I had no idea where

520
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 4: it was going to go with regard to Lola's character,

521
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 4: because for the majority of the movie, Lola is someone

522
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 4: we know about in terms of her effect on others,

523
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 4: but we don't really know anything about her as a person.

524
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,479
Speaker 4: My I guess, like, ooh god, I hope that it's not,

525
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 4: because I like my worry was because you know, she

526
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 4: was HIV positive, and I think it's sort of implied

527
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 4: that that is ultimately why she passes that. You know,

528
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 4: like there's all of these I feel like we've talked

529
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 4: about it, like kind of more frequently on the show recently,

530
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 4: of how HIV is like presented in movies over time,

531
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 4: and you know, there's been well intentioned attempts to show

532
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 4: characters with HIV that end up being kind of condescending

533
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 4: on a longer timeline. I was worried that it was

534
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 4: going to be like, here is like one of two

535
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 4: trans characters we know, and all we really know about

536
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 4: her is that she has HIV and has children that

537
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 4: she doesn't know about, and like sort of these broad,

538
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 4: more stereotyped ideas and then we meet her. And I

539
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 4: wasn't able to find a ton of writing from trans

540
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 4: writers specifically about this movie. I would like to listeners,

541
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 4: please let us know how you feel about this movie.

542
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 4: But I did really appreciate at very least that like,

543
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 4: by the end of the movie, you know that the

544
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 4: intention is to treat her with all of the humanity

545
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 4: she deserves to be treated with. It's just like, oh, yeah,

546
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 4: and you get to see that, you know, like she's

547
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,000
Speaker 4: gotten an extremely raw deal in her life. And the

548
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 4: movie also doesn't shy away from how people treated trans

549
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:26,000
Speaker 4: women at this time.

550
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, in the same way that you could make the

551
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 3: argument that the only two trans women who we get

552
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 3: to know are also sex workers or former sex workers,

553
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 3: because that's a trope often affiliated with transwomen in media.

554
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 3: And to be clear, the issue here is that that

555
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 3: specific representation of trans women doing sex work tends to

556
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 3: be presented in media with a sense of judgment attached

557
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 3: to it and without examining any of the context of

558
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 3: why that's a job some trans women do, and without

559
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 3: developing those characters in any meaningful way. I feel like

560
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 3: we had a similar discussion on the Tangerine episode. Oh yeah, yeah,

561
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 3: I think the movie gives the characters enough, again just

562
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 3: interiority that we're deviating from like the trope territory and

563
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:24,279
Speaker 3: actually like giving them characterization the way that again a

564
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 3: lot of other movies don't bother.

565
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:28,840
Speaker 4: To do, right, and even the way that like HIV

566
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 4: is presented in the movie, the fact that it's not

567
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 4: just a trans character who has HIV, like Rosa's experience

568
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 4: is very different from Lola's experience, and there's also sort

569
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 4: of this gradient of like what that can look like.

570
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 4: And I really appreciated that Almadovar goes out of his

571
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:50,880
Speaker 4: way to make it clear to the audience that this

572
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 4: is not a death sentence for baby Estevon either, and like, yeah,

573
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 4: goes out of his way to dispel probably what in

574
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:01,239
Speaker 4: ninety nine and a lot of people now as well

575
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 4: would not really know or like think about.

576
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, that's the thing about Almolo is like there's

577
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 1: nuance to his movies, and like we were saying, you

578
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 1: think it's gonna be about Manuela following the guy that

579
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 1: got the Heart, but it's not. It's just this little thing.

580
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 1: And then you think she's gonna stay living with the grandparents,

581
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,240
Speaker 1: but she's like, I'm out of here. To me, that's

582
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:29,799
Speaker 1: like those subtleties or like kind of deviations from the

583
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:34,319
Speaker 1: path is good writing that it hasn't been touched by

584
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:40,480
Speaker 1: execs who want everything to mean something yeah, yeah.

585
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:43,840
Speaker 3: You know, or for everything to be like a tidy,

586
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 3: nice a reason yes, little happy ending, or a like yes,

587
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 3: you can tell that this is not a Hollywood movie totally,

588
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 3: that this is like a Spanish movie, because if this

589
00:35:56,200 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 3: script came across the desk of Hollywood executives, they would

590
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 3: have just been like, no, it needs to be more whatever,

591
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:07,360
Speaker 3: like Hollywood happy ending vibes.

592
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:12,279
Speaker 1: Yeah. And another thing about the transsex workers. I have

593
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,359
Speaker 1: you guys seen that TV show Veno. It was an

594
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 1: HBO show. It's really amazing. It's about a famous trans

595
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 1: woman from Spain and like around the same time, and

596
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 1: there's an entire episode where she talks about how it

597
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 1: was nearly impossible for trans women to get jobs at

598
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:37,319
Speaker 1: like hospitals or stores because there was so much discrimination

599
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 1: and sex work was kind of there the only ways

600
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 1: they could make a living, right, So I think it's

601
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 1: a reality. I don't know in the US how it is,

602
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 1: but I know in Argentina it's the same way too,

603
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 1: or it was the same way too, especially in the nineties.

604
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,799
Speaker 4: And I think that like what Almodovart does here that

605
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,360
Speaker 4: makes it clear that he's not like stereotyping these characters

606
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 4: because there is precedent for it. Is that like we

607
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:09,919
Speaker 4: see in particular, we see a Grotto is exploring other

608
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 4: passions of her yes, like she's performing and she's you know,

609
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 4: has has a very particular attitude towards sex work where

610
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 4: she's not against it, but she's like, I don't do

611
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 4: that anymore. I'm doing this now, And it's not he

612
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:23,440
Speaker 4: just writes people as people.

613
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 1: She's retired.

614
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:27,239
Speaker 4: She's retired, yeah, and she.

615
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 1: Has pride in the sex work she does, yeah, which

616
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 1: I think is amazing, Like she knows she's really good

617
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:38,279
Speaker 1: at it, She's all All of those subtleties are what

618
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 1: make his movies so brilliant.

619
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,759
Speaker 3: There's an exchange of dialogue where Agrotto is saying, I

620
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 3: was so good at my work that I could give

621
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 3: a blowjob in public and the only person who noticed

622
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 3: was the recipient.

623
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:52,799
Speaker 2: Of their.

624
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 3: And then they're kind of they're saying this because they

625
00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:01,759
Speaker 3: think that Uma is in the other room out of earshot,

626
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:03,879
Speaker 3: because they like, don't know how she's going to take

627
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 3: information like that. But then Uma stepped right up and

628
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 3: she's just like, oh, it's been so long since I've

629
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 3: sucked a cock, And then they all burst out laughing.

630
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so cute.

631
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 4: That's great.

632
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 3: It's interesting because Uma is more or less of the

633
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 3: same generation as Rosa's mother, and Rosa's mother is a

634
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 3: character who is like not tolerant. She is not understanding.

635
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 3: She does not want to be around sex workers. She's

636
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 3: very disparaging of them, and so you might assume, oh, no,

637
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:36,359
Speaker 3: Uma might be the same way, but she is not.

638
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:41,359
Speaker 3: She is very accepting and understanding of everyone around her.

639
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:45,760
Speaker 1: Both Uma and Nina, her lover, are the two characters

640
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 1: in the movie that confuse me the most in that

641
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 1: I don't quite understand what, like I can't pinpoint like

642
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:56,040
Speaker 1: this is what they're doing in the movie, or this

643
00:38:56,160 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 1: is what type of person they are, but Roses I

644
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:06,240
Speaker 1: pinned her immediately as a narcissist and it just it showed,

645
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:09,399
Speaker 1: like I have a line that she says written down

646
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:12,880
Speaker 1: when she's talking about Penelope Cruz, her daughter. She says,

647
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 1: ever since she was born, she's felt like an alien

648
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 1: to me. And to me, that's like a person who

649
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 1: had a child but isn't a caretaker, isn't equipped, it's

650
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:31,919
Speaker 1: too narcissistic, sees the child as an extension of herself,

651
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:35,440
Speaker 1: and thus, you know, she's ashamed of what her daughter

652
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 1: does for a living, which is the opposite of Manuela,

653
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 1: who literally everybody she meets gravitates to her for caretaking.

654
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 1: And it just comes so instinctually to her. It's amazing,

655
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 1: even when those people aren't her biological children.

656
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 3: Because most of them aren't. And she she cares for

657
00:39:56,719 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 3: a grotto, she cares for Rosa, she cares for a

658
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 3: baby Debon, she cares for Uma, all these different characters

659
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 3: she's providing care for in a way that is also

660
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 3: contextualized by the story. I mean, she's just suffered this horrible,

661
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 3: tragic loss and it's, you know, feeling an emptiness that

662
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:22,400
Speaker 3: she more or less fills by helping others.

663
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:27,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, and she does say to Manuela says, at one point,

664
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:30,560
Speaker 1: I have it written in Spanish. It's something like you

665
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 1: don't pick your parents. You get what you get, and

666
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 1: it's the fucking truth. But then again, like, did you

667
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:43,360
Speaker 1: guys notice how, I mean you obviously did. How She

668
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 1: pretends that her and Penelope Cruz are sisters, and it

669
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:51,759
Speaker 1: made me think of sisters like older sisters taking care

670
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 1: of younger sisters when a mother. I have a very

671
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 1: narcissistic mother who you know, in turn, I raised my

672
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:03,719
Speaker 1: so in ways, in very protective ways. So that's when

673
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 1: we get into the whole, like motherhood comes in so

674
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 1: many forms or care you know.

675
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 3: Well, that lends itself to the theme of chosen family, yes,

676
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 3: which we see constantly with so many relationship dynamics and

677
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:22,479
Speaker 3: kind of combinations of characters where you can presume that

678
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:27,560
Speaker 3: Agrotto and Lola were you know, as quote unquote outcasts

679
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 3: of society, chose each other as family, and basically everyone

680
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:36,400
Speaker 3: that Manuela interacts with ends up being her chosen family.

681
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:42,200
Speaker 3: Between Agrotto and Rosa and Uma to some extent, it's

682
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:44,799
Speaker 3: a little different because she works for Uma, but they

683
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 3: also develop a friendship and yeah, so yeah, it's just

684
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 3: like chosen family across the board.

685
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:57,239
Speaker 1: Also, Ulma Uma in Spanish means smoke, and her name

686
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:01,280
Speaker 1: is Uma Rojo, which is red smoke. I'm so curious

687
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 1: about interesting that and why. I mean, I'm sure we

688
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 1: can find it online. I didn't. I was too lazy

689
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 1: to look, but I wrote it down because I thought

690
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 1: it was really cool.

691
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:15,160
Speaker 4: That's fascinating, I did. Yeah, I didn't even think to

692
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 4: look into what the significance of the names were.

693
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:20,240
Speaker 1: Of the names totally.

694
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:23,319
Speaker 3: Well, then, speaking of names, you've got a Grotto who

695
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:27,800
Speaker 3: says several times in the movie that her name, which

696
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:31,319
Speaker 3: she chose, refers to the fact that she has spent

697
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 3: her whole life trying to be agreeable for other people

698
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:39,560
Speaker 3: and trying to make other people's lives agreeable. And that's

699
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:43,319
Speaker 3: a clear component of her character, one that is very

700
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:48,040
Speaker 3: relatable for women. Yeah, that we're expected to just be

701
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 3: accommodating and agreeable.

702
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:54,279
Speaker 1: Another caretaker in a different way, which brings back to

703
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 1: the theme of caretaking. And it's I noticed that in

704
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 1: the very I think it's the very last scene when

705
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 1: Manuela comes back to see Uma at the theater and

706
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 1: Nagarailo is there as her assistant. When Manuela walks in,

707
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:13,000
Speaker 1: she grabs UMA's earring and she's like, oh, it's not clasped.

708
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 1: And Uma says something to her like she says it

709
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 1: to Agdado, like she she knows how to take care

710
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 1: of me, And Nagarilo looks at her and she's like, bitch,

711
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:24,799
Speaker 1: I've been fucking taking.

712
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 4: Care of you for two years.

713
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:30,319
Speaker 1: Yes, And it like it's those little things that I'm

714
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 1: like this writing. This isn't just a scene where people

715
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:36,279
Speaker 1: are blabbing about whatever, like.

716
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 4: Right, I mean even in the characters that are not

717
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:43,360
Speaker 4: doing a great job at being a parent or just

718
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 4: showing care, because I feel like that's the broader sort

719
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:48,799
Speaker 4: of thing that we're talking about. Is like I do

720
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:52,800
Speaker 4: believe every character in this movie is doing their best. Yes,

721
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:56,239
Speaker 4: and a lot of people's best is just like Rosa's mom,

722
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:57,759
Speaker 4: I think is a great example of that. I think

723
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 4: that that's the best she can do. Yeah, and it's

724
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:03,319
Speaker 4: not good enough. And it's like, I that's why part

725
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:04,799
Speaker 4: of why I like, I just love how matter of

726
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 4: fact Manuela is about being like, well, this isn't gonna work.

727
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:10,879
Speaker 4: It's not personal. I just like.

728
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 5: It's the boundaries I need like yeah, like and it

729
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:16,920
Speaker 5: needs to be like what, yeah, is best for the

730
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 5: baby and I just love I was I don't know,

731
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:22,360
Speaker 5: like stopping at the end of the movie.

732
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:24,600
Speaker 1: It's so intense.

733
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:26,879
Speaker 4: Where taking care of this baby is like a way

734
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:29,239
Speaker 4: to pay tribute to her own son and.

735
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:33,680
Speaker 3: Like, oh, the baby is a half brother to write

736
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:35,080
Speaker 3: saw nest upon.

737
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that like Lola. Her relationship with Lola is

738
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:42,560
Speaker 4: complicated and it's not like again, it's like it would

739
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 4: have been the easy choice for it to be a

740
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:47,480
Speaker 4: big like I forgive you, no, I forgive you, no,

741
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:50,520
Speaker 4: I forgive you, But it's just sort of like it

742
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 4: seems like they both accept like our relationship is always

743
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:55,400
Speaker 4: going to be complicated, but time is of the essence

744
00:44:55,600 --> 00:45:01,919
Speaker 4: and yeah, you know, Lola deserved to know about her

745
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:04,840
Speaker 4: son and like oof, it's.

746
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:07,839
Speaker 1: Just beautiful to your point, did you both notice how

747
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:10,760
Speaker 1: there's a lot of repetition in the movie in terms

748
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 1: of like, first what a stave on her son, Like

749
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:18,120
Speaker 1: it looks like he's going to get run over and

750
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 1: he doesn't get run over, and then he does. And

751
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:26,000
Speaker 1: then she played this character. Manuela played this character when

752
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:29,320
Speaker 1: she was young, and she ends up playing the character again,

753
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:32,319
Speaker 1: and she loses a son and then she gains this

754
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:36,920
Speaker 1: other son. There's a lot of that. And I was

755
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:41,279
Speaker 1: also reading how a take on this movie is that

756
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:45,920
Speaker 1: this is the son wanted to be a writer, since

757
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:49,440
Speaker 1: you know when we meet him. And the take is

758
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 1: that this is the story he wrote about his mother.

759
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:56,239
Speaker 1: He erased himself by you know, killing himself at the

760
00:45:56,280 --> 00:46:00,439
Speaker 1: beginning or you know, and he is a narrator at

761
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:05,239
Speaker 1: times his voice comes back, so that this is basically

762
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:08,880
Speaker 1: like him recounting the story of his mother, and he

763
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 1: fictionalized his death in order to create this And did

764
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 1: you also sorry, I'm I know it isn't so amazing. Also,

765
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:21,719
Speaker 1: like another thing to that, and you notice at the

766
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:25,359
Speaker 1: very beginning of the movie, there's this crazy shot of

767
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:30,839
Speaker 1: her son writing down the title with his pencil, and

768
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:34,400
Speaker 1: it almost looks like it's just a shot from below

769
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:36,480
Speaker 1: the pencil and it's like he's writing.

770
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:38,840
Speaker 3: It's writing it on the camera lens.

771
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:43,239
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, And that's crazy because it's just like whoa,

772
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:46,319
Speaker 1: he's writing the title of the movie, because then the

773
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 1: title appears on the screen. So I just think, like God,

774
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:55,080
Speaker 1: the layers upon layers are so amazing.

775
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's that moment where they're watching All about Eve

776
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:02,960
Speaker 3: and the translation of the title from English to Spanish

777
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:06,719
Speaker 3: isn't like a direct translation, and he comments on that, yeah,

778
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 3: like it should be like dorore Eve, and Manuela is like,

779
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:14,920
Speaker 3: that doesn't sound right, it doesn't work. But then the

780
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:16,919
Speaker 3: title of the movie in Spanish comes up and it's

781
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:19,839
Speaker 3: dot mi madre and you're just.

782
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:20,680
Speaker 4: Like, ah.

783
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:24,160
Speaker 1: Yeah. He also says that that part would you literally,

784
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:27,880
Speaker 1: would you prostitute yourself to save my life? And she says,

785
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:30,959
Speaker 1: I would do anything just for you. And then she's

786
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:35,440
Speaker 1: later confused for a sex worker, right, she poses as one,

787
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:37,080
Speaker 1: she poses as one.

788
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:40,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, and the fact that the first time that's presented,

789
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 4: he's a sensitive teen but he's also such a teenager.

790
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:47,319
Speaker 4: He's like, I don't know, just his writing is both

791
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:51,160
Speaker 4: beautiful and melodramatic in the way the teenage writing is.

792
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:54,879
Speaker 4: Totally He felt very present through the whole movie, even

793
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:56,400
Speaker 4: that we only know him for five minutes.

794
00:47:56,560 --> 00:48:00,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was, Yeah, and I'm curious. I did pay

795
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 1: attention to whether his narration lasts the entire movie, but

796
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:08,160
Speaker 1: it's definitely there throughout it.

797
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:09,280
Speaker 3: Pops in and out.

798
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:12,440
Speaker 1: Yeah. Another thing that I wanted to ask you if

799
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:16,560
Speaker 1: you noticed where the time jumps in the movie are wild,

800
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:21,279
Speaker 1: like there's so many. Yeah, yes, which is another thing

801
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:25,040
Speaker 1: that sex would have been like too many, right right.

802
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:28,280
Speaker 3: Yeah. We used to get ahead like three weeks after

803
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:32,680
Speaker 3: her son's death, and then a couple more weeks once

804
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 3: she arrives in Barcelona, and then there's a part where

805
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:37,520
Speaker 3: like two years past toward the.

806
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:39,799
Speaker 4: End, it is communicated. I mean like one of the

807
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:44,080
Speaker 4: time jumps is just communicated by Penelope Cruz is more pregnant,

808
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:47,040
Speaker 4: Like there's totally it's done pretty effortlessly, even though I know,

809
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:49,719
Speaker 4: I knowecs love to get there like underwear and a

810
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:51,840
Speaker 4: twist over it. But it's like if you just visually

811
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:56,239
Speaker 4: communicate it quickly, no problem, everyone's fine, you know, like

812
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 4: everyone will be okay.

813
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:01,400
Speaker 1: Yeah. And that's why this is like piece of art

814
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:05,719
Speaker 1: to me. It's like not tainted, it's just straight from

815
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:07,160
Speaker 1: his beautiful brain.

816
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 4: I love him so much, he's so great.

817
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:14,200
Speaker 3: Well, I was curious if there were any components of

818
00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 3: this story that were drawn from his life or that

819
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:22,839
Speaker 3: if it's like a kind of homage or I mean,

820
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:25,440
Speaker 3: I know he dedicates the movie to his mother at

821
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:27,520
Speaker 3: the end, but if he was like pulling anything from

822
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:32,360
Speaker 3: her experience, and it seems like not really, he just

823
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:37,879
Speaker 3: wanted to tell a thoughtful story about women and motherhood

824
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:43,719
Speaker 3: and caretaking and women's relationships and stuff. I read that.

825
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:48,360
Speaker 3: So he made an earlier movie from ninety five called

826
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:53,239
Speaker 3: The Flower of My Secret, where like student doctors are

827
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:59,400
Speaker 3: shown being trained on how to persuade relatives of people

828
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:04,200
Speaker 3: who have passed away to allow organs to be used

829
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 3: for organ transplants. And he basically just like took that

830
00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:15,000
Speaker 3: small piece, built the Manuela character around that, and then

831
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 3: wroughte this entire other story, which was a huge critical

832
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 3: and commercial success. It won awards, it can it won

833
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:31,560
Speaker 3: the Academy Award for Best Foreign Language Film, Golden Globes.

834
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:35,239
Speaker 3: Baftis all this kind of stuff, I think it's I

835
00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:37,640
Speaker 3: don't know if this is still true, but it is

836
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:44,160
Speaker 3: the film from the Spanish motion picture industry, meaning like

837
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:47,840
Speaker 3: movies from Spain, not movies in Spanish. It is the

838
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:52,279
Speaker 3: one that has received more awards and honors than any

839
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:54,320
Speaker 3: other film that has come out of Spain.

840
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 1: So good, yeah, it's it's it this movie. It is

841
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:05,319
Speaker 1: the one another like, aside from like the plot, the

842
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:09,760
Speaker 1: beauty in this movie, the colors, Like my husband was saying,

843
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:14,239
Speaker 1: like it looks like technic color. Yeah, and it's just

844
00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:20,200
Speaker 1: like and the way Barcelona is depicted, just like it's

845
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:20,880
Speaker 1: just stunning.

846
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:23,360
Speaker 4: It's beautiful. It's so beautiful.

847
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:26,200
Speaker 1: I was gonna wear an Almodovar red shirt for this

848
00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 1: and I forgot so pretend like I'm wearing red.

849
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:34,919
Speaker 4: Spiritually all three of us are wearing red. Yeah, I'm

850
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:38,400
Speaker 4: so like. This made me want to be more complete

851
00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:42,319
Speaker 4: in knowing his work because I just love I love

852
00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:46,040
Speaker 4: when a director tries to explore a pretty specific theme

853
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:48,640
Speaker 4: from every angle possible and like you can see them

854
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:51,880
Speaker 4: grow yes with the It just it's because he was

855
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:57,080
Speaker 4: in his late forties or maybe fifty when this came out, too,

856
00:51:57,200 --> 00:51:58,799
Speaker 4: and so I feel like there's I like it. I

857
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:02,000
Speaker 4: like that there's like a pretty wide diversity of age too.

858
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:03,960
Speaker 1: Oh god, yeah.

859
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:06,640
Speaker 4: There's mothers, but it's we have a new mother, but

860
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:10,400
Speaker 4: we also have you know, a mother in her late thirties,

861
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:14,279
Speaker 4: and you have Ros's mom. You know, like, how did

862
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:15,400
Speaker 4: he write this?

863
00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 1: I know?

864
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:22,960
Speaker 3: Something worth mentioning is the actors who play the trans characters.

865
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:29,319
Speaker 3: In this movie where a Grotto is played by an

866
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:34,040
Speaker 3: actor named Antonia san Juan, who I believe is a

867
00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:37,560
Speaker 3: SIS woman. The research I did about this, here's what

868
00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:43,040
Speaker 3: I found. There's a Guardian article from twenty twelve, so

869
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:45,120
Speaker 3: you know, quite old at this point, and you can

870
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 3: tell from the title. It's entitled should trans screen roles

871
00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:51,000
Speaker 3: be played by transactors?

872
00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:52,840
Speaker 4: Oh, twenty twelve?

873
00:52:53,320 --> 00:53:00,440
Speaker 3: Right, twenty twelve And this article briefly mentions this movie saying, quote,

874
00:53:00,719 --> 00:53:06,239
Speaker 3: there may be stealth transactors if fear of being exposed

875
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:11,759
Speaker 3: does not daunt them parentheses. The speculation about Antonio san

876
00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:16,040
Speaker 3: Juan after she played and then dated term here but

877
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:21,080
Speaker 3: transsexual a Grotto in Pedro Almodovar's All About My Mother

878
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:24,400
Speaker 3: was feverish, So I don't remember this happening at the time,

879
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:27,920
Speaker 3: but apparently after this movie came out.

880
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:31,759
Speaker 4: And it's like also fruitiful, like nobody's business. It's not, yeah,

881
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:35,120
Speaker 4: no one's business any That's the tricky. It's like having

882
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:38,279
Speaker 4: these conversations, especially like three SIS people. It's like we

883
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:42,279
Speaker 4: sound creepy, like people said, and I felt, yeah, I

884
00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:45,000
Speaker 4: went through that as well, and just like the amount

885
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:49,640
Speaker 4: that she had to correct you know, like we've talked

886
00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:52,560
Speaker 4: about on the show many times, that transactors should play

887
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:56,560
Speaker 4: trans characters. It makes sense. Yeah, and that conversation was,

888
00:53:56,960 --> 00:53:59,320
Speaker 4: you know, still very much being had in twenty twelve.

889
00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:04,240
Speaker 4: I wasn't surprised to see that this was the case

890
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:07,560
Speaker 4: in nineteen ninety nine. Unfortunately, Right, what I will say

891
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:12,759
Speaker 4: is just based on Alma Divar's work going forward, I

892
00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:16,960
Speaker 4: don't think it would be a choice you would make now, right, agree, Yeah.

893
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:20,040
Speaker 3: And he does center queer characters quite a lot, he

894
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:23,719
Speaker 3: himself is a queer filmmaker. But yeah, I think he

895
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:28,799
Speaker 3: would take better care to cast transactors in trans roles.

896
00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:32,320
Speaker 3: But again, the other trans character who we get to know, Lola,

897
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:36,680
Speaker 3: is played by an actor who is a CIS man.

898
00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:41,120
Speaker 3: So again, things that were far more common in nineteen

899
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:46,960
Speaker 3: ninety nine, thankfully, far less common these days, but worth

900
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:48,560
Speaker 3: mentioning for sure.

901
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:54,920
Speaker 1: I wanted to recommend to adjacent works to this movie,

902
00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:59,359
Speaker 1: and one is Veneno, which I mentioned previously. It's on

903
00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:03,279
Speaker 1: HBO and it's a series. And another one is a

904
00:55:03,320 --> 00:55:07,560
Speaker 1: book called Bad Girls. It's about a sex worker, a

905
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:12,839
Speaker 1: trans sex worker in Argentina. The writers at Argentine and

906
00:55:13,120 --> 00:55:17,960
Speaker 1: trans Woman and it's so fucking beautiful. It's called Bad

907
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:21,680
Speaker 1: Girls and the writer's Camilla Sosa.

908
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:24,239
Speaker 4: Okay, it's going on the list.

909
00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:27,920
Speaker 1: Good companion books and shows to this movie.

910
00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:32,640
Speaker 3: I would also recommend A Fantastic Woman from twenty seventeen

911
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:37,160
Speaker 3: about a trans woman living in Chile.

912
00:55:37,640 --> 00:55:40,040
Speaker 4: Love that I still haven't seen it.

913
00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:42,040
Speaker 3: It's really going we should cover it on the show sometimes.

914
00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:45,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, any other thoughts on this movie.

915
00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:48,359
Speaker 1: I hope my IVF works and I can become a

916
00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:51,959
Speaker 1: mother us too.

917
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:53,319
Speaker 4: I'm rooting for you.

918
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:56,920
Speaker 1: Thank you. I'm just announcing it in every podcast I

919
00:55:57,040 --> 00:56:00,319
Speaker 1: go on. I'm like, I'm starting IVF, but it's it's like,

920
00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:01,800
Speaker 1: well that's what I'm.

921
00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:05,320
Speaker 4: Doing, starting IVS on the press tour. Baby, let's go.

922
00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:08,279
Speaker 1: Yeah the worst. I'm traveling to New York to do

923
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:12,200
Speaker 1: my reading tomorrow and I'm going with like a thousand

924
00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:15,560
Speaker 1: syringes and files of things.

925
00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:18,320
Speaker 4: That's I mean, it's going to be a memorable trip.

926
00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:21,040
Speaker 4: I can't. I'm so excited for you.

927
00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:24,839
Speaker 1: Thank you and this. Watching this movie, like the day

928
00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:28,040
Speaker 1: before I started was kind of crazy.

929
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:31,480
Speaker 4: It has to be. Yeah, like there couldn't be a

930
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:33,080
Speaker 4: more mother movie to exist.

931
00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:35,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, It's like I want to take it as a

932
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:38,560
Speaker 1: sign that all is well, you know, like, but at

933
00:56:38,560 --> 00:56:40,440
Speaker 1: the same time, I don't know. It was just it

934
00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:43,640
Speaker 1: felt very I hate saying kismet, but it really did

935
00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:44,359
Speaker 1: feel that way.

936
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:49,640
Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, I guess my final thought is just

937
00:56:49,680 --> 00:56:54,600
Speaker 3: sort of like a conclusive. I appreciate that this movie

938
00:56:55,160 --> 00:57:01,640
Speaker 3: takes such care to explore women of different ages and

939
00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:08,719
Speaker 3: generations and sexualities and stations in life and personalities, and again,

940
00:57:08,840 --> 00:57:16,440
Speaker 3: the relationships between them or among them are also interesting

941
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:19,640
Speaker 3: and authentic in a way that, again most movies don't

942
00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:24,280
Speaker 3: bother to characterize at all. But that's what this entire

943
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:28,440
Speaker 3: movie is about. Men are largely absent from the story,

944
00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:31,240
Speaker 3: and the ones who we do see, like you mentioned tomorrow,

945
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:36,880
Speaker 3: are usually being antagonistic toward women, which is again a

946
00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:41,600
Speaker 3: very familiar experience for women. I did want to mention

947
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:46,360
Speaker 3: the monologue from a grotto talking about how much she

948
00:57:46,400 --> 00:57:52,000
Speaker 3: hates drag queens and saying that they're sleazy also felt very,

949
00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:53,800
Speaker 3: very dated for sure.

950
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, wait, what was that? I missed it?

951
00:57:56,560 --> 00:58:01,240
Speaker 3: So it's when they go to see Rosa, right when

952
00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:04,400
Speaker 3: we first meet that character, And I don't even know

953
00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:10,120
Speaker 3: what prompts this Tirade exactly. But a Grotto is just

954
00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:14,480
Speaker 3: saying that basically that she feels that drag queens kind

955
00:58:14,480 --> 00:58:19,160
Speaker 3: of make a mockery of trans women. You would think

956
00:58:19,160 --> 00:58:21,160
Speaker 3: there might be more solidarity between.

957
00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:25,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, my assumption of where that was coming from was

958
00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:29,400
Speaker 4: how frequently trans women and drag queens, especially the further

959
00:58:29,440 --> 00:58:31,360
Speaker 4: back you go, were conflated with each other. And I

960
00:58:31,400 --> 00:58:33,600
Speaker 4: was like, right, it's coming from a place of frustration,

961
00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:36,800
Speaker 4: but that is not on drag queens.

962
00:58:36,960 --> 00:58:43,480
Speaker 6: That's on society losers, right. But yeah, there's there's just

963
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:48,040
Speaker 6: so much to appreciate about this movie.

964
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:50,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, I do think like that the movie does a

965
00:58:50,480 --> 00:58:54,240
Speaker 4: good job of sort of contextualizing like Lola doesn't get

966
00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:58,160
Speaker 4: the chance to be a parent in the suviie and

967
00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:01,440
Speaker 4: because I've I was also worried that like she was

968
00:59:01,440 --> 00:59:03,400
Speaker 4: going to be made out to be like a deadbeat parent,

969
00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:07,720
Speaker 4: but she just didn't know and that was a choice

970
00:59:07,880 --> 00:59:10,320
Speaker 4: that was made. And it just made me want to

971
00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:14,600
Speaker 4: see and hope that we get more movies about transparents.

972
00:59:15,560 --> 00:59:18,080
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, because there's just like not a lot there

973
00:59:18,120 --> 00:59:21,600
Speaker 4: is the show Transparent, but there's a lot of problems

974
00:59:21,640 --> 00:59:25,280
Speaker 4: with that. I would love to just see if we're

975
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:29,600
Speaker 4: movies with transparents, maybe just don't even call attention to it,

976
00:59:29,720 --> 00:59:31,160
Speaker 4: just like parents, you know.

977
00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:36,560
Speaker 3: Right, Absolutely, the movie does pass the Bechdel test.

978
00:59:36,760 --> 00:59:39,680
Speaker 4: Practically the whole time, and like except where they're talking

979
00:59:39,680 --> 00:59:42,160
Speaker 4: about various estebands.

980
00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:47,840
Speaker 3: Right or talking to doctors who are being awful.

981
00:59:48,120 --> 00:59:51,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

982
00:59:51,120 --> 00:59:54,000
Speaker 3: As far as our nipple scale goes, where we rate

983
00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:57,880
Speaker 3: the movie zero to five nipples examining it through an

984
00:59:57,920 --> 01:00:05,400
Speaker 3: intersectional feminist len yes, I mean this movie gets high marks,

985
01:00:05,960 --> 01:00:09,560
Speaker 3: like four four and a half. It's a rare movie

986
01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:13,520
Speaker 3: that performs well on our show. I would take a

987
01:00:13,560 --> 01:00:18,320
Speaker 3: little bit away from just the actor's cast to play

988
01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:25,840
Speaker 3: the trans characters being sis actors. Otherwise, it's just such

989
01:00:26,160 --> 01:00:32,360
Speaker 3: a beautiful depiction of women and their interior lives and

990
01:00:32,440 --> 01:00:36,080
Speaker 3: their relationships with other women, some of which we see

991
01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:39,880
Speaker 3: are very positive and uplifting, some of which are far

992
01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:43,560
Speaker 3: more complicated. Well, I guess all the relationships are complicated,

993
01:00:43,600 --> 01:00:45,960
Speaker 3: but some are not so positive. But there's just like

994
01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:50,560
Speaker 3: so much nuance and authenticity to everything we see. That Again,

995
01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:55,600
Speaker 3: most movies are like, there's one one woman, and of

996
01:00:55,720 --> 01:00:59,800
Speaker 3: course she's a mother because that's what women are. Whereas

997
01:00:59,840 --> 01:01:02,960
Speaker 3: this movie is like, yes, some women are mothers and

998
01:01:03,080 --> 01:01:09,080
Speaker 3: let's explore that thoughtfully. So it's just really well done.

999
01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:12,120
Speaker 3: And I'll give it four and a half nipples and

1000
01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:17,640
Speaker 3: I'll distribute them among all the women in the cast.

1001
01:01:18,400 --> 01:01:25,439
Speaker 3: Plus so Peak the Dog, oh so Peak incredible. Yeah,

1002
01:01:25,480 --> 01:01:27,480
Speaker 3: I'll go four and a half as well. I just

1003
01:01:27,520 --> 01:01:29,840
Speaker 3: think this is a beautiful, thoughtful movie.

1004
01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:33,600
Speaker 4: Yeah. I would love to know what our trends listeners

1005
01:01:33,640 --> 01:01:36,960
Speaker 4: think about it as well. But I was just like, so,

1006
01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:42,600
Speaker 4: I didn't know anything going into this movie, and boy,

1007
01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:44,760
Speaker 4: it puts you through it in a good way, but

1008
01:01:45,400 --> 01:01:49,120
Speaker 4: it puts you through it and I feel like, really

1009
01:01:49,840 --> 01:01:55,160
Speaker 4: effortlessly avoids all of these like stereotypes of mothers that

1010
01:01:55,200 --> 01:01:57,960
Speaker 4: he does so well. So I'm gonna give it four

1011
01:01:57,960 --> 01:02:00,520
Speaker 4: and a half nipples. I will, Yeah, I guess I'm

1012
01:02:00,520 --> 01:02:02,720
Speaker 4: going to I don't know. I mean, I love a

1013
01:02:02,760 --> 01:02:07,240
Speaker 4: grotto so much. Two to a grotto because that's just

1014
01:02:07,560 --> 01:02:12,760
Speaker 4: me nepotisming my favorite character. I will give one to Manmoila.

1015
01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:19,560
Speaker 4: I'll give one to Petro Amozovar himself because he really

1016
01:02:19,720 --> 01:02:22,400
Speaker 4: he really killed this one. And I'll give the half

1017
01:02:22,440 --> 01:02:23,960
Speaker 4: to baby Esteban.

1018
01:02:26,320 --> 01:02:29,000
Speaker 3: Exase tomorrow how about you.

1019
01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:30,800
Speaker 1: You know, I was gonna say four and a half

1020
01:02:30,920 --> 01:02:33,720
Speaker 1: nipples two, but then I thought, I'm going to add

1021
01:02:33,920 --> 01:02:36,320
Speaker 1: the half and give it a five nipples.

1022
01:02:36,040 --> 01:02:38,480
Speaker 4: Because it's your favorite movie.

1023
01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:41,000
Speaker 1: Yes, and because the fact that it came out in

1024
01:02:41,200 --> 01:02:47,720
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety nine. I'm just it's we haven't even today,

1025
01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:53,040
Speaker 1: like reached themes like this in whatever year it is. Now,

1026
01:02:53,160 --> 01:02:57,080
Speaker 1: like there's two trans women in the movie, like now

1027
01:02:57,240 --> 01:02:59,440
Speaker 1: I'm working on TV too, where it's like there can

1028
01:02:59,520 --> 01:03:03,480
Speaker 1: be the one character mate, Like it's unheard of. So

1029
01:03:03,680 --> 01:03:08,040
Speaker 1: for that reason, I give it the full nip and

1030
01:03:08,320 --> 01:03:12,560
Speaker 1: I'm going to give them all to Manuela because that

1031
01:03:12,680 --> 01:03:16,120
Speaker 1: performance by Cecilia Roth is a dream come true.

1032
01:03:16,200 --> 01:03:18,520
Speaker 4: Incredible, so beautiful.

1033
01:03:18,280 --> 01:03:24,040
Speaker 1: And because her character is the goddess caretaker and yeah.

1034
01:03:24,120 --> 01:03:27,440
Speaker 3: Wonderful, amazing. Thank you so much for bringing us to

1035
01:03:27,520 --> 01:03:30,400
Speaker 3: this movie and chatting about it with us.

1036
01:03:30,640 --> 01:03:35,320
Speaker 4: I think probably from episode to episode the wildest genre

1037
01:03:35,400 --> 01:03:37,480
Speaker 4: John we've made with a single guest in the history

1038
01:03:37,520 --> 01:03:41,280
Speaker 4: of this show, Home Alone and All About My Mother, Like, yeah,

1039
01:03:42,160 --> 01:03:44,960
Speaker 4: it's basically the same movie, two important films.

1040
01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:47,920
Speaker 1: Oh my god, it's so funny. I remember that the

1041
01:03:47,920 --> 01:03:49,920
Speaker 1: one we did it was also like late on a

1042
01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:52,840
Speaker 1: Saturday night and we were like drinking wine and the

1043
01:03:52,960 --> 01:03:55,360
Speaker 1: vibe was just completely Now I'm like.

1044
01:03:55,760 --> 01:03:57,040
Speaker 3: It was a live show too.

1045
01:03:57,520 --> 01:03:59,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I.

1046
01:03:59,160 --> 01:04:00,920
Speaker 1: Was like, oh this is it has to be funny.

1047
01:04:01,280 --> 01:04:02,880
Speaker 4: We've we all grew up.

1048
01:04:03,160 --> 01:04:06,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. Well, thank you so much for.

1049
01:04:06,080 --> 01:04:10,439
Speaker 4: Having me, or thank you for coming back on come

1050
01:04:10,480 --> 01:04:14,680
Speaker 4: back anytime, surprise us again with a completely different movie. Yes,

1051
01:04:14,920 --> 01:04:17,080
Speaker 4: and congratulations on your book. Where can we buy it?

1052
01:04:17,160 --> 01:04:18,160
Speaker 4: Where can we follow you?

1053
01:04:19,240 --> 01:04:22,520
Speaker 1: It is available anywhere you buy books. I like to

1054
01:04:22,680 --> 01:04:26,120
Speaker 1: not buy it from Amazon if possible, but do what

1055
01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:30,000
Speaker 1: you must. And it's available for as an audiobook narrated

1056
01:04:30,080 --> 01:04:34,560
Speaker 1: by me, and I cry like twenty times during the narration,

1057
01:04:34,840 --> 01:04:39,160
Speaker 1: so that's kind of fun. And you can follow me

1058
01:04:39,200 --> 01:04:44,760
Speaker 1: on Instagram. I am tomorrow, Yeahiah, that's spelled tomorrow y

1059
01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:46,120
Speaker 1: a Jia.

1060
01:04:46,640 --> 01:04:50,600
Speaker 3: You can follow us on Instagram as well. At Bechdelcast.

1061
01:04:50,760 --> 01:04:56,320
Speaker 3: You can subscribe to our Patreon aka Matreon, where we

1062
01:04:56,440 --> 01:05:01,360
Speaker 3: release two episodes per month focusing on a brilliant theme,

1063
01:05:02,280 --> 01:05:05,640
Speaker 3: all for five dollars a month at patreon dot com

1064
01:05:05,680 --> 01:05:07,240
Speaker 3: slash Bechdel Cast.

1065
01:05:07,960 --> 01:05:11,720
Speaker 4: And with that, let's go walk Roses Dog.

1066
01:05:12,920 --> 01:05:19,200
Speaker 6: Yes, let's a bye Bye Bye.

1067
01:05:20,240 --> 01:05:23,560
Speaker 3: The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by

1068
01:05:23,600 --> 01:05:27,480
Speaker 3: Caitlin Drante and Jamie Loftis, produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited

1069
01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:30,760
Speaker 3: by Mola Board. Our theme song was composed by Mike

1070
01:05:30,880 --> 01:05:35,240
Speaker 3: Kaplan with vocals by Katherine Volskrosensky. Our logo in merch

1071
01:05:35,400 --> 01:05:38,360
Speaker 3: is designed by Jamie Loftis and a special thanks to

1072
01:05:38,400 --> 01:05:42,800
Speaker 3: Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit

1073
01:05:42,880 --> 01:05:44,440
Speaker 3: linktree slash Bechdel Cast