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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. How does a fishing trip

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Speaker 1: between three buddies end up in a bloody massacre, and

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Speaker 1: not only that in an area with virtually zero crime rate?

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I'm Nancy Grace. This is

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at

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Speaker 1: Fox Nation and Sirius XM one eleven take a listen

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Speaker 1: to this. The parents of twenty seven year old Brandon Rollins,

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Speaker 1: who was shot and left bloodied in the roadway in

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Speaker 1: Polk County over the weekend. His father recalling his final

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Speaker 1: moments because he got the phone call from his son

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Speaker 1: not long after he was shot. Cyril Rawlins says the

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Speaker 1: moment he realized his son was calling, he knew it

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Speaker 1: was bad news. He don't never call my phone at

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Speaker 1: all unless he have trouble or something would be going down.

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Speaker 1: When he answered, his fears were realized. He said, help Daddy,

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Speaker 1: Help Daddy. Cyril knew his twenty seven year old son,

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Speaker 1: Brandon Rawlins, was out fishing on Lake Streety with two friends,

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Speaker 1: twenty three year old Damian Tillman in thirty year old

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Speaker 1: Kevin Springfield. He rushed to the scene where he found

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Speaker 1: his son shot and bloodied in the roadway. Well, when

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Speaker 1: I got there, I didn't have phone at all. I

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Speaker 1: didn't know what to do. He was talking and all that.

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Speaker 1: As a son, I got to leave you. I gotta

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Speaker 1: go get some help. He was pretty bad. He was

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Speaker 1: too bloody. Can you imagine a mother or a father's

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Speaker 1: nightmare finding your son beaten, bloody, dying and you have

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Speaker 1: to leave to go call for help. Dies. In the introim,

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Speaker 1: that is part of the nightmare the parents of these

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Speaker 1: three young men are going through. Who go out on

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Speaker 1: an innocent fishing trip and end up dead. Our question

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Speaker 1: is why with me an all star panel to break

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Speaker 1: it down and put it back together again. Renowned attorney

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Speaker 1: Laura Euretzian joining us from LA. High profile criminal defense attorney,

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Speaker 1: New York Psychologists joining us Karen Start. You can find

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Speaker 1: her at Karen Starting dot com. Karen Smith joining us

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Speaker 1: from LA. Forensics expert and the star of any podcast

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Speaker 1: Shattered Souls, the medical examiner for the entire state of Florida,

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Speaker 1: doctor Tim Gallagher. But first to Ray Caputo, lead news

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Speaker 1: anchor for w DBO, joining us out of Florida. Ray Kaputo,

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Speaker 1: The first thing I want to figure out and establish

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Speaker 1: is where is frost Proof Florida. Well, it's in Polk County.

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Speaker 1: It's about an hour and a half south of Orlando.

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Speaker 1: And if you look at it on a map, it's

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Speaker 1: this neat little place. It's this town that it sits

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Speaker 1: on a narrow strip of land between two lakes. It

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Speaker 1: doesn't have a lot of residents. Everybody seems to know

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Speaker 1: each other. The anti playbooking flag is flying out in

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Speaker 1: front just a very idealistic place. Well, I don't know

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Speaker 1: what you mean by that, because I got an American

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Speaker 1: flag out in front of my house as well. Hold on,

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Speaker 1: Ray Kaputo, while I respect your journalistic integrity, joining me

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Speaker 1: right now is an expert on where is frost Proof

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Speaker 1: Florida and what it's all about. They elected sheriff Schriff

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Speaker 1: Grady Judd now joining me from Polk County, Florida. Sheriff,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. We were just kicking

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Speaker 1: round for everybody across the country listening right now that

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Speaker 1: may not have heard a frost Proof Florida. Tell me

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Speaker 1: about it, Nancy. It's God's country. It's at the south

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Speaker 1: end of our county, which is two thousand square miles

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Speaker 1: our county is that is, we have over seven hundred

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Speaker 1: thousand people in the county, but Frostproof is at the

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Speaker 1: far south end. And when you think about it, you

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Speaker 1: think about the idealistic place you'd like to live, like

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Speaker 1: the Mayberry. Well, Frostproof is Maybury. Everybody, Ray said, everybody

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Speaker 1: knows everybody. So it was a total shot to the

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Speaker 1: community when this horrific deed occurred, because there's nothing but

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Speaker 1: good people, orange groves, cow pastures and small business. You know,

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Speaker 1: Sheriff Grady jud You're reminded me so much of where

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Speaker 1: I grew up, not really even in a city, unincorporated

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Speaker 1: bib County in the middle literally the geographic middle of Georgia,

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Speaker 1: and I'm pretty sure my parents wouldn't even lock the

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Speaker 1: doors at night. We had four neighbors in total, and

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Speaker 1: that was a place in a time where after school

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Speaker 1: I could ride my bike until my mom or dad

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Speaker 1: would blow the car horn in the distance right here

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Speaker 1: the chimes and the church steeple, and that's what I

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Speaker 1: would know it was time to go home because it

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Speaker 1: was safe. There was no crime in that area. Basically

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Speaker 1: out in the middle of nowhere some people would put it.

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Speaker 1: But as you put it God's country, you know, Sheriff

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Speaker 1: Grady Judd. A lot of questions have been asked about

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Speaker 1: these three young men, Damien Tilman, Kevin Springfield, Brandon Rollins,

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Speaker 1: who went out fishing at night? Now is that common

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Speaker 1: in the Frostproof, Florida area. There's nothing more wholesome than

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Speaker 1: three best friends fishing on Friday night near Frostproof, Florida.

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Speaker 1: And it's called night fishing. They were catfishing, that's what

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Speaker 1: they were doing, and it's a favorite place that they

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Speaker 1: go often. Well, you know, Sheriff, there's nothing better than

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Speaker 1: a fried catfish unless you want to go with a

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Speaker 1: fried mullet. You ever have that? I have, But I'd

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Speaker 1: rather have smoked mullet and fried catfish. Now, I don't

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Speaker 1: know why I'm talking about fishing. Yes, I do know why, because,

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Speaker 1: as you said, what's more wholesome than that. They're not

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Speaker 1: out clubbing where everybody's drunk and doing a line of cocaine,

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Speaker 1: getting in fights. They're not there. They're not out at

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Speaker 1: three am driving drunk. The three of them have been

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Speaker 1: friends for a long time and have gone night fishing,

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Speaker 1: and then somehow everything goes sideways and it turns literally

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Speaker 1: into a blood bath. Now a moment ago, you heard

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Speaker 1: our friend at Fox thirteen, Jennifer Holton. Now take a

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Speaker 1: listen again to Fox thirteen. Cyril hopped back into his car,

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Speaker 1: driving to a convenience store to call nine one one

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Speaker 1: and then rush back to the scene. He says that

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Speaker 1: when he heard his son's phone ringing inside of his truck,

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Speaker 1: the sea we could it was covered on blood and

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Speaker 1: I got the phone and it was his mom. I said, please, daddy,

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Speaker 1: sound is gone. But all three men were dead before

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Speaker 1: EMS arrived. We still don't have arrest at this moment,

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Speaker 1: Sheriff Judd saying Monday, investigators have received well over a

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Speaker 1: hundred tips, but they're hoping now that an increased reward

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Speaker 1: makes a difference. There's a reward of thirty thousand dollars

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Speaker 1: at this moment in time, just for information that leads

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Speaker 1: to the arrest of these horrific criminals, and arrest that

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Speaker 1: Cyril says could bring justice for his family. That was

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Speaker 1: my only son. I'll never have a grand another grandchild. Nothing,

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Speaker 1: my lfe is gone. Oh my stars. Karen Stark psychologists

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Speaker 1: joining us from New York. When I heard the father

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Speaker 1: speaking you knew my dad very well, Karen, from all

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Speaker 1: the times we all visited together in New York. Something

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Speaker 1: about his voice reminded me so much of my dad.

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Speaker 1: I can't even imagine losing your child and being there

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Speaker 1: trying to save your child, having to leave your child

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Speaker 1: to go call for help, and calling your wife and

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Speaker 1: saying our son is dying. I don't know how a

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Speaker 1: parent would ever get over that. Well, Nancy, who won't

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Speaker 1: get over that? I mean, just as we listen to

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Speaker 1: it and you're hearing it, it's just so it's tragic,

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Speaker 1: it really is, and that and you hear I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's so clear that this was an untenable situation, that

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Speaker 1: terrible Karen Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we are

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Speaker 1: talking about three young guys, great guys, three best friends.

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Speaker 1: Think of your child and they're they're two best friends.

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Speaker 1: I can name mine right now. I have to drag

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Speaker 1: John David off of the computer at night where he

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Speaker 1: and his two favorite little buddies are playing games online.

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Speaker 1: They swim together, they fish together, they go bicycling together,

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Speaker 1: they do everything together. Same with my daughter Lucy. She's

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Speaker 1: got two little besties. And to think these guys grow up,

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Speaker 1: they go fishing, and they all three end up dead.

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Speaker 1: At what this father has got to live through. Take

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Speaker 1: a listen to our friend, Sheriff Grady speaking. His father,

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Speaker 1: who was home in bed asleep, heard the call from

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Speaker 1: his son, knew where they were fishing, jumped up, got dressed,

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Speaker 1: drove here immediately. He's about ten minutes away in the

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Speaker 1: frost Proof community. When he arrived, he saw this horrific

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Speaker 1: scene of where all these young men had been shot up.

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Speaker 1: In Brandon's father's excitement to run to and help his son,

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Speaker 1: he forgot his cell phone at home, So now he's

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Speaker 1: out in the middle as you can see, of no

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Speaker 1: place without any communications. So he hopped back in his

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Speaker 1: vehicle and went to Sunray, which is on Highway twenty seven.

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Speaker 1: Ran into the convenience store. They all know each other

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Speaker 1: in this area. My son needs help. Seventeen year old

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Speaker 1: young lady who is the daughter of the convenience store

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Speaker 1: attendant at that time, jumps in the vehicle with Brandon's

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Speaker 1: father and they come back to the scene. You know,

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Speaker 1: I want to go to you share of grad Eja,

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Speaker 1: but I kind of ask Karen, start another question, Karen,

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Speaker 1: what is it about? That fact that he gets all

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Speaker 1: the way there and he's forgotten his cell phone. That's

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Speaker 1: like a knife in my heart. It reminds me my uncle,

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Speaker 1: my mother's only sibling, had a heart attack early fifties

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Speaker 1: and his wife, my aunt Shirley, was trying to race

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Speaker 1: to the scene and her car broke down. She could

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Speaker 1: not get the thing to start. She didn't get there

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Speaker 1: in time to see my uncle. Just some twists, some

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Speaker 1: odd twist of fate that makes a tragedy even more poignant.

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Speaker 1: What is that There's got to be something in your

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Speaker 1: psychological repertoire that will explain why that's just like a

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Speaker 1: twist of the knife. Yeah, I'm thinking, Nancy, that it's

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Speaker 1: like post traumatic stress because he will always relive that

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Speaker 1: and think about the fact that what would have happened

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Speaker 1: if he had had his phone, if someone had been

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Speaker 1: able to get there in time, and that I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's a natural tendency when someone dies. I think everyone

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Speaker 1: can relate to this where you start to think if

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Speaker 1: I had done this, if I had done that, And

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Speaker 1: of course you couldn't, but you start to think about that.

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Speaker 1: But here's a real life situation where he's going to

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Speaker 1: wonder if I had had my phone, would I have

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Speaker 1: saved my son? Guys, three best friends go night fishing

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Speaker 1: and all end up dead. To Sheriff Grady Judd, special

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Speaker 1: guests joining us from Polk County, Florida, Sheriff Judd again,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us in the midst of

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Speaker 1: this investigation, taking time to be with us. We really

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Speaker 1: appreciate it. So, Sheriff jud You're saying, this is kind

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Speaker 1: of out in the middle of nowhere, and I mean

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Speaker 1: that in a good way because that's the way I

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Speaker 1: grew up. So I'm trying to figure out the dad

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Speaker 1: gets out there and what is it that he sees?

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Speaker 1: What does he find out? And he was woken up

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Speaker 1: in bed correct as his son calls him. Absolutely, his

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Speaker 1: son called him, we think before the shooting occurred, and

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Speaker 1: all his dad heard his help. So when his dad

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Speaker 1: rushed to the scene because he knew where the lake

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Speaker 1: was and where they normally fished. When he got there,

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Speaker 1: the first thing he saw was his son on the

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Speaker 1: ground shot and dying, and one of his buddies that

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Speaker 1: was in the truck with him laying on the ground

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Speaker 1: on the other side with his feet propped up in

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Speaker 1: the truck dying and the third one that was shot, Damien.

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Speaker 1: They threw him up into the bed of the truck

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Speaker 1: for what reason we don't know. So he drives up

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Speaker 1: and he sees his son and two best friends in

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Speaker 1: life all shot down, massacred, shot multiple times. It was

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Speaker 1: absolutely horrible. Guys were talking about the unusual and bizarre

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Speaker 1: deaths of three best friends two Doctor Tim Gallagher, a

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Speaker 1: medical examiner, State of Florida. I'm thinking about this dad

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Speaker 1: and what he's going to go through the rest of

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Speaker 1: his life based on the injuries his son suffered. Do

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Speaker 1: you think if the dad had called fifteen minutes earlier,

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Speaker 1: twenty minutes earlier for an ambulance, could he have been

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Speaker 1: saved or was there no chance? Well, it's difficult to say, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: It would depend on the extent of his wounds and

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Speaker 1: the amount of times that he was shot. Of course,

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Speaker 1: when the dad arrived, the sun was barely alive, you know,

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Speaker 1: And as the sheriff stated, this is God's country and

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Speaker 1: typically ambulances aren't immediately available in that area. So the

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Speaker 1: time that ambulance would take to travel there and to

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Speaker 1: stabilize him and to bring him to the hospital, most

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Speaker 1: likely he would not have survived his injuries, and Sheriff

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Speaker 1: d that's no offense to the local amts. There's just

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Speaker 1: a lot of ground to cover and a sparsely populated area.

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Speaker 1: I've only had the opportunity to be in a ambulance

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Speaker 1: one time in Florida, and I went into early labor

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Speaker 1: and I was way off on Saint George's Island and

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Speaker 1: an EMT had to come all the way from Tallahassee.

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Speaker 1: It took a long time to get there. But when

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Speaker 1: he got there, he was a one eyed ambulance driver

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Speaker 1: named Elvis. I'll never forget him, and thanks to him,

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Speaker 1: the twins didn't come early and it saved their lives.

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Speaker 1: So when we're saying it may have taken a while

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Speaker 1: for the ambulance to get there, what were the injuries

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Speaker 1: to Brandon Rawlin's Sheriff Judd, how many times had he

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Speaker 1: been shot? Well, first and foremost. You know, you don't

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Speaker 1: station ambulances out in the middle of the woods because

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Speaker 1: there's no one there to service, so there's drive time.

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Speaker 1: But when they arrived, Brandon had multiple gunshot wounds. And

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Speaker 1: the doctor is exactly correct. I truly and I've done

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Speaker 1: this forty eight years with a sheriff's office, and as

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Speaker 1: a kid I worked on the ambulance. I truly believe

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Speaker 1: had he sustained those injuries in the emergency room lobby,

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Speaker 1: he still wouldn't survived the injuries. How he survived them

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Speaker 1: long enough to have final words with his father is

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Speaker 1: just miraculous to me. Guys, what makes this so bizarre

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Speaker 1: is we are now learning a chance encounter at a

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Speaker 1: local Dollar General may have set in action a course

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Speaker 1: of events that ended into three murders of three young guys.

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Speaker 1: A chance encounter. Joining me, Raykaputo, doctor Gallagher, or Karen Smith,

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Speaker 1: Karen Stark and La Euretsin from LA along with Sheriff

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Speaker 1: Grady Judd. You know, Laura urets In, high profile criminal

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Speaker 1: defense attorney in LA. Have you noticed, as I did

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Speaker 1: when I was prosecuting and even now covering so many felonies,

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Speaker 1: the smallest thing can tip off a series of events

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Speaker 1: like dominos that you never put together. And here apparently

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Speaker 1: a chance encounter at a Dollar General ended up in

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Speaker 1: three murders. It's not that uncommon, Laura, exactly. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we see that every day, not every single crime that

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Speaker 1: happens is necessarily planned out to happen at a particular time.

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Speaker 1: Specific incidents can trigger someone who's already volatile, who's got

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Speaker 1: anger issued, or who's got a long rap sheet to

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Speaker 1: explode and do something as horrific as we have now

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Speaker 1: in frostpoof Florida Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. What happened

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Speaker 1: to these three innocent and unarmed guys. They're out fishing,

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Speaker 1: next thing you know, they are dead, massacred. Take a

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Speaker 1: listen to Sheriff Grady Judd, Polk County, Florida. What opened

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Speaker 1: sheriff in that Dollar General? It was exceptionally bizarre. We

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Speaker 1: went back to the Dollar General because we found a

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Speaker 1: bag in Damien's vehicle where he'd shopped. We pulled the

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Speaker 1: tape and Damien was standing in line to check out.

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Speaker 1: Directly behind him as a guy that we'd learned that

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Speaker 1: later is Tony Wiggins. Behind him is a guy called

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Speaker 1: Robert Wiggins. They're brothers. Damien is actually having what appears

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Speaker 1: to be an absolutely total civil conversation with Tony, who

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Speaker 1: we know as TJ. Now keep in mind this small community,

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Speaker 1: they know each other, they're all the same age, right,

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Speaker 1: elementary school together. Civil conversation, no argument, nothing, as a

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Speaker 1: matter of fact. That's backed up by w FLA news

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Speaker 1: reporter Stacy da Silva. Listen, Sheriff, everybody wanted to know

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Speaker 1: was this random or with these men targeted? The sheriff

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Speaker 1: said today that a chance encounter at a Frostproof Dollar

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Speaker 1: General led to a massacre. Three people are now in custody.

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Speaker 1: They have solved the case. Sheriff Grady Judd offering answers

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Speaker 1: about a doomed Polk County fishing trip. This is the

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Speaker 1: guy who directly did the damage. His name's Tony Wiggins.

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Speaker 1: He's an known ast TJ. The sheriff says. Friday night, Wiggins,

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Speaker 1: his girlfriend Mary Whitmore, and his brother Robert went to

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Speaker 1: this Dollar General in Frostproof. In front of them in

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Speaker 1: line to check out was Damian Tilman, one of the victims.

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Speaker 1: Video shows Tilman and Wiggins appearing to have a cordial conversation.

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Speaker 1: Tilman mentions to the clerk, he's meeting up with Kevin

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Speaker 1: Springfield to go fishing. Guys. That's exactly what the sheriff

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Speaker 1: is telling us. And you, Sheriff Grady Judd, you were

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Speaker 1: just telling us that these guys knew each other from

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Speaker 1: high school. That's how far back they go. Absolutely, they

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Speaker 1: were raised in the community together. So what happened in

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Speaker 1: the line at Dollar General? When it's interesting? When Damien

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Speaker 1: gets up to check out, of course he knows the

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Speaker 1: guy who's the clerk. He tells the clerk, Hey, I'm

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Speaker 1: going fishing. I'm going fishing with Kevin and I'm going

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Speaker 1: fishing with Brandon. And they yet taught. They have small

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Speaker 1: talk about well, good luck fishing, that sort of thing,

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Speaker 1: and he exits the store, and then TJ checks out

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Speaker 1: along with his brother Robert, and they exit the store.

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Speaker 1: TJ asked Robert, who did Damian say he was going

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Speaker 1: fishing with? He said Kevin. He said let's go to

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Speaker 1: the lake. Right. He immediately directed his right merely. I

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Speaker 1: don't get it. I don't get it, and I guess

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Speaker 1: I need to shrink on this one too. How if

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Speaker 1: someone came up to me and went, even a friend, hey,

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Speaker 1: let's go to the lake and get these guys. Oh

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Speaker 1: h no, what is it to you? Lawyer ut siena

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Speaker 1: again high profile lawyer join him out of la How

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Speaker 1: many times have you seen someone with no rap sheet

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Speaker 1: go along with a cockamany half caught idea and they

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Speaker 1: all end up going to jail something they would never

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Speaker 1: have done on their own. We see it all the time.

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Speaker 1: I mean, in this case, you've got Robert who's only

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Speaker 1: got a misdemeanor from what I understand, and Mary Whittemore

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Speaker 1: has nothing in her background, never been convicted of anything.

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Speaker 1: And you start wondering, really how much the plan or

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Speaker 1: what was coming. Did they really anticipate or see it's coming.

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Speaker 1: They may just I mean, you never know what's going

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Speaker 1: on in their minds. They're going along with Tony, who's

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Speaker 1: probably leading the whole thing, knowing the kind of rap

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Speaker 1: sheets and issues he's had or years. I'm shoots done

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Speaker 1: an anger and shoot as well, and they end up

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Speaker 1: at the scene. And from what we understand, Tony is

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Speaker 1: the one doing all of it. He's the one who

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Speaker 1: shoots the three men. He's the one arguing. Everything is

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Speaker 1: done by Tony. If the rest are basically as far

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Speaker 1: as the initial crime by killing the three best friends,

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Speaker 1: it's Tony. The two others are basically watching two Sheriff

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Speaker 1: Grady Judd Polk County, Florida, elected Sheriff Sheriff the law

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Speaker 1: says that the law presumes you intend the natural consequences

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Speaker 1: of your act. So when you get into the car

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Speaker 1: with a guy saying I'm gonna go kill them, hamming

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Speaker 1: my gun and your part and parcel of it, the

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Speaker 1: law presumes you intend the natural consequences of that act.

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Speaker 1: And I would tell jury's a million times, Sheriff. It's

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Speaker 1: like I take a five pace of china and hold

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Speaker 1: it up and it just throw it to the cement floor.

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Speaker 1: The law presumes I intend to break it to shatter it.

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Speaker 1: So when you go along with someone who's getting his

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Speaker 1: gun and going for a revenge, the law presumes you

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Speaker 1: and ten what's going to happen. And not only that, Sheriff.

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Speaker 1: For instance, let's just say you and I go to

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Speaker 1: a bank robbery and you just are the driver, and

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Speaker 1: I go in and get a wild hair and start

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Speaker 1: shooting the place up and kill a couple of people.

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Speaker 1: You're on the hook murdo conspirator. I find it, you know,

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Speaker 1: statistically from Mary Whitmore, to go along to be part

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Speaker 1: of a mass murderer is very unusual statistically for a

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Speaker 1: woman to do that. So what was the relationship between

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Speaker 1: these three there at the dollar general who run into

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Speaker 1: our guys going fishing? What were they to each other?

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Speaker 1: Tony Wiggins, MJ. Whittemore and William Wiggins. Well, I know

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Speaker 1: TJ and Robert Wiggins are brothers, age twenty six twenty one.

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Speaker 1: Who's Mary Whitmore. Mary Whitmore is the girlfriend to TJ.

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Speaker 1: And she bought the ammunition for him at a store

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Speaker 1: up the road, as we say, in Polk County in

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Speaker 1: Lake Wales, just a few days before because he's a

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Speaker 1: convicted felon and he couldn't buy it. Oh, we also

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Speaker 1: have lord to you. Ray Kaputo, Lead Knews anchor Orlando

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Speaker 1: Morning News WDBO. Tell me about Tony Wiggins rap sheet.

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Speaker 1: It must be pretty bad if he can't go buy

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Speaker 1: any ammo. He puts his girlfriend up to it. What's

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Speaker 1: his rap sheet? Gotta be some type of world record, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: He starts at the tender age of twelve, and he's

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Speaker 1: racked up two hundred and thirty felony convictions and as

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Speaker 1: an adult, he spent more time in prison than he's

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Speaker 1: spent as a freeman. He's a ticking time bomb and sadly,

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Speaker 1: you know this last Friday night is when he exploded,

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Speaker 1: killing three innocent young men. Sheriff jud what was he

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Speaker 1: doing out walking free? To start with, he's been causing

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Speaker 1: troubles twelve where most of his charges were his juveniles.

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Speaker 1: And in the state of Florida, just like across the

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Speaker 1: United States, our juvenile justice system has troubled discerning who

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Speaker 1: were children committing mischief that's criminal, and who were prolific

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Speaker 1: criminals as children, And between twelve and eighteen he was

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Speaker 1: a prolific criminal. He would commit he may go to

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Speaker 1: a string of home burglaries or car burglaries all at

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Speaker 1: one time. When he picked up charges, he had two

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Speaker 1: hundred and thirty charges, fifteen convictions, two trips to the

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Speaker 1: county gil. He spent six of the last eight years

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Speaker 1: of his life in prison. And when he did this,

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Speaker 1: he was out on bond for breaking a guy's arm

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Speaker 1: in a fight just in March of this year. He

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Speaker 1: stays in trouble. The people in the community when they

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Speaker 1: heard it, they didn't know about the murder, but who

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Speaker 1: did the murder? But they kept saying, go look at TJ,

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Speaker 1: Go look at TJ. Everybody in the community knows he's

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Speaker 1: wild and he's hostile. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so here's a guy that she'd never have been out.

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Speaker 1: Two hundred and thirty arrest, fifteen convictions, and now three

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Speaker 1: innocent guys are dead. Young guys, young twenty three years old,

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Speaker 1: Damion Tillman, Kevin Springfield, Brandon Rollins, all dead over what

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Speaker 1: Jackie play? Cut nine for me? Nine fifty six In

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Speaker 1: the evening, Damien is checking out of the store with

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Speaker 1: his product and cut a w FLA news reporter Stacy

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Speaker 1: to Silva, listen to this. TJ tells Robert, who's driving,

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Speaker 1: go to the lake. The sheriff says, the suspects show

403
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Speaker 1: up on Lake Streety Road and see Tilman, Springfield and

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Speaker 1: the third victim, Brandon Rawlins. He points the gun, Hey Kevin,

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Speaker 1: and TJ says, where's my truck? Kevin goes, I don't

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Speaker 1: know what you're talking about. Yeah you do, where's my truck?

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Speaker 1: You sold the engine out of my truck, According to

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Speaker 1: the sheriff, Wiggins then shoots and kills Tilman, Rawlins and Springfield.

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Speaker 1: It's estimated and this is still under investigation. He shoots

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Speaker 1: seen nine to ten times between the two of them.

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Speaker 1: To you, Karen Smith's joining me, out of LA forensics

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Speaker 1: expert hosts, shattered souls, nine to ten gunshot looms. It

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Speaker 1: was so bloody. The dad who came to save his

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Speaker 1: son couldn't even see the cell phone. Everything was covered

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Speaker 1: in blood. How do you process a scene like that?

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Speaker 1: This is a heartbreaking, first of all, and it's very

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Speaker 1: complex for the crime scene detective. You have tire tracks,

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Speaker 1: this is a muddy dirt road, you have shoeprints. You

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Speaker 1: have two vehicles left at the scene. You have three bodies,

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Speaker 1: you have multiple gunshot wounds, you have a lot of evidence.

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Speaker 1: So this is a multi day scene. This is all

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Speaker 1: hands on deck. This is every single fiber of your

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Speaker 1: training and your education coming into play. You have to

424
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 1: diagram it, you have to photograph it, you have to

425
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 1: collect everything. And I would like to commend them the

426
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 1: dollar General bag in that receipt. What a great find.

427
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 1: That was the start of the timeline that the detectives

428
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 1: needed to follow up. The end of the timeline was

429
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 1: Brandon Rowland's phone call to his father. So you have

430
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 1: a ten to fifteen minute timeline. The community kicked in

431
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 1: gave the tips all of that evidence from the crime scene.

432
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 1: It's going to play into this. I think they've got

433
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 1: him dead to right, Nancy. As a fantastic case. Take

434
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 1: a listen to Crime Onlines Dave Mack. When detectives located

435
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 1: the suspects, they were living in a family compound of

436
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 1: camper trailers not far from the murder scene. They were

437
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 1: living off the grid with no running water, no electricity,

438
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 1: using generators for power. T J. Wiggins and his girlfriend

439
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 1: live in one of the travel trailers. His brother had another.

440
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 1: With a search warrant, police found two SKS rifles, two

441
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 1: Mossberg shotguns, and ammunition for both in a gun safe

442
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 1: belonging to t. J. Wiggins. The ammunition found there, police say,

443
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 1: was the same ammunition fired from the gun and the

444
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 1: murders a Smith and Wesson handgun. Tracing the suspects movement

445
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 1: after the killings, police say the three suspects drove to McDonald's,

446
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 1: ordered ten double cheeseburgers, two mc chicken sandwiches, and then

447
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 1: went home to eat. The next morning, Robert Wiggins took

448
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 1: the truck he was driving to a car wash to

449
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 1: get the road clay off. Okay, let me understand understand something.

450
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 1: Share of Grady J. Polk County Florida special guests joining us.

451
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 1: So after these three commit mass murder, they go out

452
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 1: and pig out on McDonald's. Well, I guess you work

453
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 1: up a hunger killing people like that. They drove directly

454
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 1: small town, which is probably ten miles north of where

455
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 1: they were, go through the drive through, order ten double

456
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 1: cheeseburgers and two mc chickens. Did you hear me? Just crazy,

457
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 1: and proceeded to have dinner, go home and eat. Karen

458
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 1: start New York psychologists. When I would try violent crimes,

459
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: which was every case I ever tried, you know, child molestation, murder,

460
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 1: agasalt ag battery, I couldn't even eat. And I was

461
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 1: just prosecuting the case. I mean, in the mornings before trial,

462
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 1: I'd be so keyed up about the evidence. I have

463
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 1: to watch the Little House on the Prairie before I

464
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,800
Speaker 1: could go in the court. Then once I started the evidence,

465
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 1: there's no way I could eat. I just sit there

466
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 1: at my counsel table while the jury went to launch

467
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 1: because the evidence would be so upsetting. These people went

468
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 1: and stuffed themselves on double cheese McDonald's. What what kind

469
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 1: of mind is that? Like they can't remember the three

470
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 1: guys they just murdered. It doesn't surprise me at all

471
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 1: that who were talking about three people who really don't

472
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 1: have any kind of feelings. They don't have a consens

473
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 1: they have no compassion, no response to what they did.

474
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 1: So it was an adventure and they worked up quite

475
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 1: an appetite and that's why they were able to eat.

476
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 1: And you would not be able to eat because you

477
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 1: would be so upset, and they weren't upset at all.

478
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 1: They were having a really good time. Karen Smith's LA

479
00:32:55,160 --> 00:33:00,080
Speaker 1: forensics expert host Shattered Souls podcasts. Karen, you heard the

480
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 1: type of weapons that were found in their their residence

481
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 1: where they were living, quote off the grid, living off generators.

482
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 1: You got mossbergs, you got SKS rifles. You heard what

483
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 1: was used. What do you make of all the different

484
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 1: guns these three had in their home. Well, first of all, TJ.

485
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: Wiggins is a convicted felon, So there's another felony. Chalk

486
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 1: that one up SKS that is a precursor to the

487
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 1: AK forty seven holds the seven point six two rounds.

488
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 1: That is a very powerful rifle, Mossberg shotgun. No more

489
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 1: needs to be said about that. And then there's a handgun.

490
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 1: I don't think that that has been recovered yet. However,

491
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 1: they did find ammunition at this trailer that quote unquote

492
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 1: matched what was at the theme. Now that means it's

493
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 1: probably the same caliber in the same make, which is

494
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 1: a Smith and Wesson. So that is really strong evidence

495
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,719
Speaker 1: against TJ. Wiggins and the other two, you know. Sheriff

496
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 1: Grady Judd speaking as a victim of gun violence myself,

497
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 1: I hate guns. I hate them. Now. I don't argue

498
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 1: with the constitution. If you have a right to bear arms,

499
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 1: have it. But Sheriff Judd, have you ever heard a rattlesnake?

500
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 1: Have you ever heard one? Absolutely? You know there's something

501
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:17,239
Speaker 1: about that sound that he just gives me a chill,

502
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:22,399
Speaker 1: same thing rack and a shotgun. When you hear that,

503
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:26,839
Speaker 1: wherever you are, you freeze. Now, why does a guy

504
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:31,360
Speaker 1: like this with two hundred and thirty arrests have shotguns

505
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 1: the precursor to AK forty seven for Beet's sake in

506
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 1: his home. Why Well, because he likes guns and he

507
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 1: doesn't follow the rules, which is more than evident. And

508
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 1: when you're as mean and ugly to as many people,

509
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 1: he's mean and ugly too. He feels that he's got

510
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 1: to have firearms for self protection as my estimation, you know,

511
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 1: to doctor Tim Gallagher, medical examiner for the State of Florida.

512
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 1: Doctor Gallagher, you're now hearing that a handgun was used

513
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 1: and that about ten rows that we know off we're fired.

514
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 1: What does that do to the human body? Do you

515
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 1: think these three victims felt pain. I'd have to believe

516
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 1: that they did, especially knowing that you have a weapon

517
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 1: like that pointed at you and the person behind it

518
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:20,800
Speaker 1: is ready to pull the trigger. Each victim was shot

519
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 1: multiple times, and when a bullet goes through a body,

520
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:29,720
Speaker 1: it certainly hurts, you know, and I can't expect even

521
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 1: in times of when the adrenaline is running and it's pumping,

522
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:37,719
Speaker 1: sometimes that may dull the pain a little bit. But

523
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:40,320
Speaker 1: by and large, when a bullet goes through your body

524
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:42,760
Speaker 1: and does the damage that it does, breaks the bones,

525
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:47,400
Speaker 1: rips to blood, vessels, perforates the organs, that incites a

526
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 1: lot of pain. I was hoping that they would just

527
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 1: go and shot, but I guess not to Shareff Grady

528
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 1: jud Polk County, Florida elected sheriff Sheriff. I'm just sick

529
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:03,800
Speaker 1: about it. Just think about what these families are going through.

530
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 1: How are the families today? I mean, see, we're all

531
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 1: sick about it. I've done this job my entire adult life.

532
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 1: I've been in law enforcement forty eight years and I've

533
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,759
Speaker 1: seen horrific scenes before. In this ranks right at the

534
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:23,360
Speaker 1: very top of all of the ones that I've seen,

535
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,719
Speaker 1: and I've seen a lot, but I can tell you

536
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 1: the families totally wiped out. They're totally devastated. These are

537
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 1: good people, but they're exceptionally poor people. In fact, they

538
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 1: don't have enough money to bury their children, or didn't

539
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 1: I ask on the air, ken a few people or

540
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 1: can a lot of people give a few dollars? In

541
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,240
Speaker 1: less than twelve hours, we raised one hundred and fifty

542
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 1: thousand dollars to bury these three people that die this

543
00:36:55,680 --> 00:37:00,239
Speaker 1: senseless death. And these folks, you know, they have to

544
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 1: buy clothes to go to a funeral. I mean, you're

545
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:06,879
Speaker 1: just really good, poor people, and it breaks my heart. Well,

546
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:11,400
Speaker 1: Sheriff Judd, coming from rural Middle Georgia, I know exactly

547
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 1: the kind of fine people you're talking about. God bless

548
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 1: their families. We wait as justice Unfoalds Nancy Grace crime

549
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:24,800
Speaker 1: story signing off, Goodbye friend,