1 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:05,400 Speaker 1: Al Zone Media. 2 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 2: Welcome to the final episode of Anti vax America, a 3 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:12,640 Speaker 2: special mini series from It could Happen Here. I'm your host, 4 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:16,759 Speaker 2: Stephen Monachelli, a journalist in Dallas and sometimes contributor to 5 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:22,759 Speaker 2: cool Zone Media. Over the past episodes, we've explored the 6 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 2: origins of the current measles outbreak, the historical roots of 7 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 2: the anti vaccination movement, the overlap between vaccine hesitancy and 8 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 2: conservative Christianity that upholds a strong belief in spiritual healing, 9 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 2: and the eugenic implications of contemporary anti vax ideology and 10 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 2: the Maha movement. In this episode, we'll explore the future. 11 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:49,240 Speaker 2: Could the United States see a massive return of viral outbreaks, 12 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 2: How would a nationwide collapse and vaccination rates impact our 13 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 2: public health? And what are we to make of the 14 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 2: rise of alt medicine and whether that could continue to 15 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 2: spread if people like RFK Junior elevate these hucksters into 16 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:09,759 Speaker 2: national figures. These are not just academic questions. If vaccination 17 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 2: rates continue to decline, we could see the return of 18 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:15,960 Speaker 2: diseases like polio, which had been eradicated in the United 19 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 2: States for decades. In recent years, there have been cases 20 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:24,839 Speaker 2: of polio found in waste water, and one confirmed case 21 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 2: of a man with polio in an unvaccinated community in 22 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 2: New York. An expert warned that these isolated incidents could 23 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:36,680 Speaker 2: spread into larger outbreaks, and these concerns are well founded, 24 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:40,119 Speaker 2: particularly given that RFK Junior has said as recently as 25 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 2: twenty twenty three that early batches of polio vaccines caused cancer, 26 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 2: something that has never been demonstrated in the research. Vaccination 27 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 2: is the most effective tool we have to prevent the 28 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 2: spread of communicable, deadly diseases. Without widespread vaccination, we face 29 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 2: the very real possibility of devastating public health crises, and 30 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 2: the resurgence of diseases like measles and polio, and smallpox 31 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 2: and more would put our most vulnerable populations at risk, 32 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 2: especially the elderly, the immunal compromised, and others who cannot 33 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 2: be vaccinated. We don't have a crystal ball that will 34 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 2: allow us to see into the future, but as the 35 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:26,359 Speaker 2: anti vaccination movement grows, it is clear that the risk 36 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 2: of large scale outbreaks is increasing, and if we don't 37 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 2: correct the course soon, we could see a public health 38 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 2: disaster unlike any we've seen in recent history. Perhaps even 39 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 2: worse than COVID, which took more than one point one 40 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 2: million American lives. In this episode, we will explore what 41 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 2: could happen here in the United States if the anti 42 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:50,679 Speaker 2: vaccination movement continues to get their way. As I conducted 43 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:53,920 Speaker 2: interviews with medical doctors and public health experts featured in 44 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 2: this series, I asked them all the same question, where 45 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 2: do you see this going? Each had their own answer, 46 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:04,360 Speaker 2: and all of their answers pointed in the same direction. 47 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 2: Here's Catherine Wells, the head of public health in Lubbock, 48 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 2: the largest county in West Texas where the measles outbreak began. 49 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 3: I do worry that, you know, we are going to 50 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 3: see other vaccine preventable diseases. You know, measles is the 51 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 3: most highly infectious. But for all of those people that 52 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:29,359 Speaker 3: are becoming infected with measles, you know they'll be immune, 53 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 3: But that doesn't mean they're immune from mumps and rubella 54 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 3: and other vaccine preventable diseases that could easily enter a 55 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 3: community with lower vaccination rates, and those can come next. 56 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 3: So I mean that is concerning. 57 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 2: Measles is sort of like a canary in the coal 58 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 2: mine when it comes to vaccination rates. It's the first 59 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 2: sign of a collapsing system. Here's doctor Peter Hotez, the 60 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 2: vaccine scientist in Houston. 61 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 4: You know, with the formation of anti vaccine groups in 62 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 4: the twenty tens in Texas, you started to get these 63 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 4: steep rise in parents requesting non medical exemptions that their 64 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 4: kids could get out of being vaccinated for school. And 65 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 4: it was particularly strong in the same places where people 66 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 4: were refusing COVID vaccine. Years later, especially in conservative rural 67 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:25,600 Speaker 4: areas of West Texas East Texas, the vaccination rates continue 68 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:27,919 Speaker 4: to be strong in our cities of the Texas Triangle, 69 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:30,280 Speaker 4: Dallas where you are, in Houston where I am, and 70 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:35,480 Speaker 4: San Antonio and Austin. But you know, in the more 71 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 4: conservative rural areas of West Texas East Texas, that's where 72 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 4: you saw big declines in kids getting vaccines. And once 73 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:48,359 Speaker 4: you go below a certain threshold, roughly below ninety percent 74 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:52,599 Speaker 4: and bam, that you start to see break through childhood infections. 75 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 4: And usually the first one you see is measles. You 76 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 4: can ultimately get all of them, but measles is the 77 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:00,840 Speaker 4: first one you see because it's so highly transmiss it's 78 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 4: the most transmissible virus we know about. So measles is 79 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 4: kind of the whatever you want to call it, the 80 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 4: early biomarker of a problem with your vaccination system. And unfortunately, 81 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 4: now it's just tearing through West Texas and the Panhandle, 82 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 4: and now it's in four states, all more or less 83 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 4: in the Great Plains area of the country. Right it's 84 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 4: the Panhandle in West Texas at the southern end of 85 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 4: the plain's been into joining areas in New Mexico, then 86 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 4: going up into Oklahoma and now Kansas. In my worry 87 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 4: is that this is a very large probably much larger 88 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 4: than is actually being reported. I mean, I don't see 89 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 4: this thing wearing down anytime soon. And I'm worried about 90 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 4: really prolonged measles epidemic to the point where we could 91 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:54,920 Speaker 4: even lose measles elimination status in the US if it 92 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:57,720 Speaker 4: goes on a full year. Between twenty twenty three and 93 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 4: twenty twenty four, we've had a fold rise in measles 94 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 4: epidemics outbreaks. We've had a sixfold rise and whooping cough 95 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 4: Protessa's cases. We've had polio upear in the wastewater in 96 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:13,479 Speaker 4: New York State. So we're already trending in the wrong 97 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 4: direction even before this current administration because of all the 98 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 4: anti vaccine sentiment rhetoric out there. Now you throw on 99 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:26,479 Speaker 4: top of it efforts to actively dismantle our vaccine ecosystem, 100 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 4: and I can only imagine what's going to happen. I 101 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:33,919 Speaker 4: really worry about the widespread return of all these childhood illnesses, 102 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 4: just like we're seeing now with measles. I mean, we're 103 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 4: looking at the potential of sustained transmission going on for 104 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 4: months and months to the point where we could lose 105 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 4: our measles elimination status, and then it goes on from there, 106 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:48,720 Speaker 4: because measles is the most highly transmissible I worry about 107 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 4: the same with whooping cough protessis. I worry about even 108 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 4: potentially polio returning, and not only in the US, because 109 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:58,840 Speaker 4: you know, as we both know, the US is very 110 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:01,279 Speaker 4: good at exporting its called. Sure, we export our music, 111 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 4: we export our movies. I worry about exporting this stuff, 112 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 4: and I worry about the impact on Latin American countries, 113 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 4: on low and middle income countries in Asia and Africa, 114 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 4: and in Europe as well. So a complete unraveling of 115 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 4: our vaccine ecosystem and global goals, and that really gives 116 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 4: me a lot of pause for concern. 117 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 2: And on that note, a quick ad break. It's probably 118 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:37,679 Speaker 2: safe to assume that the majority, if not the entirety, 119 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 2: of the audience of this show grew up in a 120 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 2: time when vaccinations were widely embraced and considered beneficial. That 121 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 2: also means that most of us have never lived during 122 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 2: a time when children and adults were regularly disabled or 123 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 2: killed by diseases like smallpox or folio. In the twentieth century, 124 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 2: three hundred million people were killed by smallpox in the 125 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 2: nineteen forties and nineteen fifties, Polio killed nearly half a 126 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 2: million people world wide annually and paralyzed hundreds of thousands, 127 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 2: but both of those diseases were effectively eradicated decades ago. 128 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 2: The last person living in an iron lung, the medical 129 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 2: device that keeps people who were paralyzed from polio alive, 130 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 2: died in March of twenty twenty four, and even measles, 131 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 2: which is considered a relatively less dangerous illness, was routinely 132 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 2: deadly before vaccination was widespread. There was a time when 133 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 2: thousands of Americans died from the disease every year. All 134 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 2: of that was due to the creation of vaccine policy 135 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 2: and infrastructure over time. But now RFK Junior and the 136 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 2: MAHA movement threatened to tear all that down and send 137 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 2: us back in time. Here's doctor David Gorsky. 138 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 5: I'll start with vaccines and then I'll try to move 139 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 5: more to MAHA. So with vaccines, what I think we're 140 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 5: seeing is the systematic intentional dismantling of federal vaccine infrastructure 141 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:11,199 Speaker 5: and policy, this whole call for placebo controlled trials. If 142 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 5: they define new vaccines as any new vaccine, it will 143 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 5: mean that there will be no new vaccines approve until 144 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 5: it's changed, which would at the earliest be after Trump 145 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 5: is out of office. If they define it as just 146 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 5: new vaccines for diseases that don't have vaccines, it might 147 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 5: be less of an issue either way, though contrary to 148 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:39,840 Speaker 5: what they claim they want to do, which is increase 149 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:43,680 Speaker 5: public confidence in vaccines, it will almost certainly have the 150 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 5: opposite effect. I recently wrote I think yeah. It was 151 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 5: last week's post. I wrote about a study that modeled 152 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 5: what would happen with certain percentage declines in vaccine uptake 153 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 5: for four different vaccines, including the measles vaccine, of course, 154 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 5: and it estimates did you know some pretty catastrophic numbers, if, 155 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 5: for instance, vaccine uptake declined even ten percent or fifty 156 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 5: percent over the next twenty five years, you know, millions 157 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:14,840 Speaker 5: of cases, thousands of deaths, you know, in other words, 158 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 5: going back to basically the way it was before the 159 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 5: measles vaccine was licensed in the early nineteen sixties. You know, 160 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 5: you sure you can. You can complain that, you know, 161 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 5: the model was somewhat simplistic, but if anything, I think 162 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 5: it was probably conservative because they used a lot of 163 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 5: conservative assumptions. We could well be heading for that sort 164 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 5: of future, although it takes a while for things to change, 165 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 5: even with this sort of radical action that RFK Junior 166 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:49,080 Speaker 5: is taking, and likely we would not see the worst 167 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 5: effects really take off until after Trump's out of office, 168 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 5: assuming he leaves office in twenty twenty nine, so you know, 169 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 5: it'll be left to his successsessors to deal with the mess. 170 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:04,680 Speaker 5: And it's always easier to destroy than it is to 171 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:09,679 Speaker 5: rebuild out. Obviously. Now the interesting counterpoint to you know, 172 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 5: Maha saying, oh, we must increase the gold standard science 173 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 5: applied to vaccines and make the standards for approval and 174 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 5: licensure you know, much more stringent. The exact opposite is 175 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 5: what they're talking about. For things like stem cell therapies, 176 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:29,080 Speaker 5: you know, they're on the vast majority of which are 177 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 5: unproven and often very expensive. A lot of other you know, 178 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:37,960 Speaker 5: wellness treatments and that sort of a thing. So we 179 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 5: could be seeing a lot less novel pharmaceuticals and vaccines 180 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 5: being approved because the anti pharma you know, suspicion will 181 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 5: be such that the bar for approval will be higher, 182 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 5: arguably too high. I realize that in the past I 183 00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 5: once argued that that maybe our bar for approving some 184 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 5: drugs was too low, but that was more based on 185 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 5: the various accelerated approval programs that had come into being 186 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 5: in the years before that, where I thought that perhaps 187 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 5: the follow up after the initial accelerated approval was not adequate. 188 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 5: At the same time, it could become more and more 189 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 5: like the Wild West. When it comes to everything else, 190 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 5: we could very well have the equivalent of you know, 191 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 5: the traveling snake. Oil salesmen going across you know, the 192 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:34,319 Speaker 5: planes in their cart, you know, selling There are various lineaments. 193 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 5: I'm not exactly sure what that would look like. I 194 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:40,960 Speaker 5: do know that, for instance, it's already pretty much like 195 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 5: that for a lot of quote unquote stem cell therapies 196 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 5: that have never really been demonstrated to be effective and safe, 197 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 5: and you know, the same randomized clinical controlled trials that 198 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 5: they demand, you know, for vaccines. One thing I have 199 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 5: little doubt of is that public health is going to 200 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:03,839 Speaker 5: be degraded significantly over the next four years. And how 201 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 5: we recover from that, I don't know. I'm struggling with 202 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 5: thea of what can be done to resist it or 203 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 5: slow it down, given that you know, the entire Republican 204 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 5: Party doesn't seem to want to put any sort of 205 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 5: checks on this administration mm hm. 206 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 2: And you know, if we were to have some other 207 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:29,319 Speaker 2: sort of major pandemic, either a new virus that breaks 208 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 2: through or a return of some disease that was once 209 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 2: out of circulation, there's no real guarantee that deaths or 210 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:47,320 Speaker 2: widespread illness or disability as a result of those possible 211 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 2: events will even spur a reaction in a way that 212 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 2: would set us on a path back towards confidence in 213 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 2: public health and vaccination. You know, the outcome of COVID 214 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 2: was you know, it's it's quite clear that COVID was 215 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 2: sort of an accelerant for a lot of the anti 216 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 2: vaccination beliefs that had long been incubating. And you know, 217 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:15,319 Speaker 2: our public discourse and broad distrust of public health entities 218 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 2: in general. And you know, like you said, you know, 219 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 2: Trump's successor will be left to clean up whatever mess 220 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 2: is made. And it's possible that Trump's successor could be 221 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 2: someone like JD. Van's, Yes, it could, or someone who 222 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 2: shares this affinity for you know, quasi eugenic statements or beliefs, 223 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 2: or this general disregard for the consequences of a sort 224 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 2: of social Diarwinist approach to public health. And so, you know, 225 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 2: we don't want to overstate the risks and be doomsayers. 226 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 2: But on the other hand, there's this real potential for 227 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 2: the return of you know, God forbid something like polio 228 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 2: or a breakthrough a and flu. 229 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 5: You just reminded me polio was one of the diseases 230 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 5: modeled in that study, and the results was coming back 231 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 5: and hundreds or even thousands of cases of paralytic polio. Right. 232 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 2: And we live now in a time in which it's 233 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 2: always been the majority of people who have never had 234 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 2: someone in their family who was in an iron lung 235 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 2: but we live in a time now where like the 236 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 2: historical memory of that is somewhat lost because it's not 237 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 2: even in the popular consciousness. It's not something that is featured, 238 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 2: you know in media. You know, used to read books 239 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 2: or watch films or even in television. You know, there 240 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 2: would be examples of something like that, someone who had 241 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 2: been impacted by polio and whether they were left disabled, 242 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 2: you know, and had less use of their limbs, or 243 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 2: you know, if they ended up in an iron lung. 244 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 2: You know, that was something at least people were aware 245 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 2: of the risk, and it's it's kind of paralleled with 246 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 2: something Another public health official I spoke with talked about 247 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 2: how there's been like two decades of doctors who went 248 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 2: through their residencies never even seeing a case of measles, 249 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 2: and so now we're having to sort of re educate 250 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 2: not just our doctors, but really the whole population, and 251 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 2: that's a massive undertaking. We'll hear a bit more from 252 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 2: doctor Gorsky right after the sad break. 253 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 3: You know. 254 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 5: One of the things that anti vaxers like to do 255 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 5: is to try to claim that, oh, back before the vaccine, 256 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 5: people didn't think measles was a big deal, and they 257 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 5: will point to that famous episode of The Brady Bunch 258 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 5: that I don't know if you ever heard of, where 259 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 5: all the kids got the measles, and it was played 260 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 5: mainly for laughs, you know, like they're all happy about 261 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 5: being home from school and they're not very sick. They 262 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 5: just have little thoughts painted all over them, because I 263 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 5: guess that's how they showed them having the measles. 264 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 1: This is a life, isn't it. Yeah, if you have 265 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 1: to get sick, she can't beat the measles. 266 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 4: That's right. 267 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 1: No medicine insider out like shots. 268 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 2: Me don't even mention shots. 269 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:15,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, measles, measles, measles. Well, all the kids have now 270 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 1: had the measles so far, lot of them years ago. 271 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 1: Looks like the Brady's are. 272 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 5: Finished with a meaz There was also an episode of 273 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:25,439 Speaker 5: The Flintstones that, believe it or not, they played the 274 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:27,399 Speaker 5: measles for laughs, And there was an episode of The 275 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 5: Donna Reid Show from the fifties. They would point like 276 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:34,400 Speaker 5: those and go, oh, they didn't consider measles a big deal. Well, 277 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 5: if you read the actual medical and public health literature, 278 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:41,439 Speaker 5: you know they did. And you know there were hundreds 279 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 5: of thousands of confirmed cases a year, maybe millions of 280 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:48,359 Speaker 5: cases a year, and at least averaging about four or 281 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:52,120 Speaker 5: five hundred deaths a year, which doesn't sound like a lot, 282 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:55,879 Speaker 5: but in anything having to do with children, that's a 283 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 5: lot of death because we don't expect children to die. 284 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,639 Speaker 5: Children should not die. They usually, you know, it's not 285 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 5: like elderly people where you know, it's expected that that's 286 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 5: when you know, the body starts giving out and people 287 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 5: are reaching the end of their lives. Children's death rates 288 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 5: should be low. That's why that's why we look at, 289 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:18,159 Speaker 5: you know, childhood cancer, and there was such an effort made, 290 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 5: you know, over from like the fifties on to try 291 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 5: to decrease the rate of death from childhood cancer. And 292 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 5: you know, the results have been pretty spectacular. About eighty 293 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 5: five percent of children with you know, cancer live, which 294 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:39,160 Speaker 5: you know, before it was you know, a pretty small number. 295 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 5: And the funny thing is the number of childhood cancers 296 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 5: is very small compared to a lot of other things 297 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 5: that cause death. We viewed it as sufficiently important to 298 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 5: try to do something about it. At least we did, 299 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 5: the question of whether we will continue to because you know, 300 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 5: anti kenemotherapy and various cancer nonsense tends to go right 301 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 5: along with maha and the other thing. 302 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 3: You know. 303 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 5: For instance, when RFK Junior made his one of his statements, 304 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 5: was it in early March I believe, or it was 305 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:17,680 Speaker 5: in March sometime about you know, where everyone was like, oh, 306 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:19,880 Speaker 5: he said, the MMR works and is the best way 307 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:24,439 Speaker 5: to stop the spread of measles. Yes, but you know, 308 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:28,159 Speaker 5: instead of the traditional messaging that you would come out 309 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:30,640 Speaker 5: of the CDC, which would be, you know, get vaccinated. 310 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 5: You know MMR is the best way to put a 311 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:38,119 Speaker 5: stop to this. Please, please, parents, get your kids vaccinated. Instead, 312 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 5: what he sort of said is, yes, the vaccine, you know, 313 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 5: vaccination is good, you know the best way to stop 314 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 5: the outbreak. But then he buries it instead of baffling 315 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 5: with bullshit, it's more like burying it in bullshit. He 316 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:53,639 Speaker 5: talks about, you know, vitamin A supposedly to treat measles. 317 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 5: He talks about how children die with measles rather than 318 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 5: of measles, which should sound very familiar because they pulled 319 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 5: the same rhetoric out for COVID and the idea being 320 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 5: that only the children who were already sick were harmed 321 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:12,440 Speaker 5: by measles, and that you know, your middle class healthy 322 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 5: children are not in any danger. You know. One way 323 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 5: to look at the anti vaccine movement, besides the eugenesis undertones, 324 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 5: sometimes not even undertones, one way to look at it 325 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:27,680 Speaker 5: is as a purity cult. You may remember the whole 326 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:30,400 Speaker 5: pure blood thing from a few years ago, like those 327 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 5: who were not vaccinated refusing to mingle with those who are. 328 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 5: Who are you know whose blood has somehow been contaminated 329 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 5: by the vaccine. It's the same as all. And think 330 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 5: of how much of alternative medicine involves quote unquote detoxification. 331 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:49,159 Speaker 5: I like to call it ritual purification because it's like 332 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 5: more of a religious concept than it is actually a 333 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 5: medical concept. And look at how treatment of quote unquote 334 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 5: vaccine injury involves something like elation therapy to pull the 335 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:03,680 Speaker 5: evil heavy metals that are supposedly causing autism out of you. 336 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 5: So the idea that you have control of your health 337 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:10,879 Speaker 5: if you only make your terrain in your body hostile 338 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 5: to microbes through your superior lifestyle. The one example of 339 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 5: this that I like to point out, and the best 340 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:21,919 Speaker 5: retort to it that I like to point out, comes 341 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:24,400 Speaker 5: from about two thousand and nine. If I recall right, 342 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:29,920 Speaker 5: it was Bill Maher on his HBO show, and Bob 343 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 5: Costas was the guess, and he was going on about how, 344 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:34,880 Speaker 5: you know, this was around the time of the each 345 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 5: one in one flu pandemic, and he was going you knowing, 346 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 5: he was going on about how he didn't need the 347 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:44,159 Speaker 5: flu vaccine because you know, his terrain was so hostile 348 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 5: to the flu, because you know, of his superior lifestyle. 349 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:52,399 Speaker 5: Caused me to roll my eyes. But and that if 350 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 5: he were on an airplane with people coughing with the flu, 351 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 5: he would not get the flu. What did Costas say 352 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 5: to him? I love this retort? He said, Oh, come on, superman. 353 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 2: Bob Costas could have easily used a different word in 354 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 2: his retort, given the eugenic tendencies of the modern anti 355 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,919 Speaker 2: vaccination movement, and the word I have in mind is 356 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 2: uber minch. But I digress. If the uber mensch of 357 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 2: the anti VAXX movement like RFK get what they want, 358 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 2: we will live in a world where preventable communicable diseases 359 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 2: run rampant, the deaths of children are justified as either 360 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 2: a part of God's plan or a survival of the 361 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 2: fittest herd. Immunity strategy, where snake oil and beef tallow 362 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 2: salesmen are heralded above doctors and scientists, and where only 363 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:46,920 Speaker 2: the strongest will survive at the expense of the week. 364 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 2: Diseases long thought defeated could return, and our ability to 365 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 2: address new viruses will be diminished. If RFK Junior successfully 366 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 2: dismantles what remains of our public health bureaucracy, and he's 367 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,879 Speaker 2: doing it at a steady clip. In other words, the 368 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 2: future may end up looking a lot like the past, 369 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 2: more than it already does, and that's terrifying. The last 370 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 2: time deadly pandemics, religious fervor, and resistance to medical science 371 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:20,119 Speaker 2: and eugenic policies all coincided historically with global trade breakdowns, 372 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 2: things did not work out so well for anyone involved. 373 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 2: And unfortunately, if I've taken one thing away from my 374 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 2: exploration of anti vacs America, it's that things will likely 375 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:35,160 Speaker 2: have to get worse before they get better. It's really 376 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 2: hard to get people unstuck from their beliefs. Despite more 377 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:42,159 Speaker 2: than one million Americans dying of COVID, the reaction to 378 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:47,160 Speaker 2: pandemic restrictions combined with the anti vaccination movements convincing misinformation 379 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:52,360 Speaker 2: around vaccines radicalized many people against vaccines and public health 380 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:59,480 Speaker 2: measures in general. Before I recorded this final statement, the 381 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 2: Texas House voted to advance a bill that will expand 382 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:07,200 Speaker 2: the ability for parents to seek exemptions for child vaccination 383 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,880 Speaker 2: requirements for school. And this is happening as a measles 384 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 2: outbreak is ongoing, and things aren't looking good, But there 385 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:17,439 Speaker 2: is at least one sliver of hope that I've found. 386 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:22,400 Speaker 2: As my conversation with Gere illustrates, it's possible for people 387 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 2: who grow up in communities where vaccinations are avoided or 388 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 2: where there is no belief in them to get out 389 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 2: of those communities and to get themselves vaccinated. And as 390 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 2: my conversation with Catherine Wells illustrated, it is also possible 391 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 2: for people who had been hesitant to get their children 392 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,639 Speaker 2: vaccinated for something like measles to be spurred into action 393 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 2: given reporting around an outbreak. But the question that ultimately 394 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 2: remains is whether enough people will have their minds changed 395 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,359 Speaker 2: and embrace what the science tells us we should do. 396 00:24:56,160 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 2: Given doctor Gorsky's astute observation that the anti vaccine movement 397 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:05,520 Speaker 2: is someone like a purity cult and Gear's comment that 398 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,479 Speaker 2: escaping their anti vax upbringing was sort of like escaping 399 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,359 Speaker 2: a cult. Unfortunately, I think we will have to temper 400 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 2: our expectations for how quickly we can extricate our nation 401 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 2: from this deep dark place that I call anti vax America. 402 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 2: I'm Stephen Monicelli. Thanks for listening. 403 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 404 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 405 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:38,960 Speaker 1: coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 406 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 407 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:44,959 Speaker 1: now find sources for It Could Happen Here, listed directly 408 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 1: in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.