WEBVTT - STBYM Listener Mail: Love on a Real Train 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:06.520 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:10.760 --> 0:00:13.039 Hey you, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind a 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:15.360 listener mail. My name is Robert Lamb. 0:00:15.400 --> 0:00:17.919 And I am Joe McCormick, and Hey, today we're going 0:00:18.000 --> 0:00:21.079 to be reading back a batch of messages from our 0:00:21.239 --> 0:00:24.880 email address. If you have never gotten in touch before, 0:00:25.239 --> 0:00:27.680 why not give it a try sometime. You can always 0:00:27.720 --> 0:00:30.880 email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind 0:00:31.040 --> 0:00:34.840 dot com. We love messages of all kinds of feedback 0:00:34.840 --> 0:00:37.680 to recent episodes, especially if you have something interesting to 0:00:37.760 --> 0:00:39.920 add to a topic that we've talked about on the show. 0:00:40.479 --> 0:00:43.080 Of course, if corrections are ever necessary, you can reach 0:00:43.159 --> 0:00:45.839 us at contact at stuff to Blow Yourmind dot com. 0:00:45.880 --> 0:00:48.400 You can also just write in to say hi, tell 0:00:48.479 --> 0:00:51.000 us where you listen from, how you listen to the show, 0:00:51.200 --> 0:00:53.040 how you found out about us, that sort of thing. 0:00:53.080 --> 0:00:56.960 That's always stuff we like to learn. Anyway. Again, contact 0:00:57.000 --> 0:01:00.320 at Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com always free 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:03.000 to get in touch, and your message may end up 0:01:03.040 --> 0:01:05.520 being featured on a listener mail episode like this one. 0:01:05.840 --> 0:01:09.319 Yeah, Yeah, and hey. We also have a discord server. 0:01:09.800 --> 0:01:12.399 If you want to join that, email us at the 0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:14.440 same address and we'll send you the like. 0:01:15.080 --> 0:01:17.560 Let's see, Rob, how about we start off with this 0:01:17.720 --> 0:01:22.080 response to our shield Wall episodes from our listener, Ahmed, 0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:23.360 do you want to read this or should I? 0:01:24.120 --> 0:01:32.319 Sure? Sure, I'll read this one, Ahmed says, Hey, guys, 0:01:32.440 --> 0:01:35.440 Ahmed again here. I just listened to your first episode 0:01:35.480 --> 0:01:40.040 about the speculation around captured Roman legionarias in Western China 0:01:40.360 --> 0:01:43.480 and thought of another firmer example of different cultures meeting 0:01:43.560 --> 0:01:46.800 and our knowledge of that via armor cling it coin 0:01:46.880 --> 0:01:51.800 armor Here's one example, but you can easily find others online. 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:54.640 And then Rob, I pulled in a couple of images 0:01:54.960 --> 0:01:57.960 of what Ahmed linked here into the outline, but I 0:01:57.960 --> 0:02:00.400 think it's some kind of hide or leather base. And 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:03.880 then on top of that, there is just this array 0:02:04.120 --> 0:02:07.520 of metal coins, all side by side, sort of strung 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:11.880 together that creates a scale like formation. Actually, to come 0:02:11.880 --> 0:02:13.280 back to the image of fish scales. 0:02:13.840 --> 0:02:16.240 Yeah, yeah, it's quite impressive. You know, I believe I 0:02:16.320 --> 0:02:18.560 had read about this at some point in the past, 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:21.359 but I don't know that I've ever seen an example 0:02:21.400 --> 0:02:23.320 of it in person, and for that matter, I'm not 0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:25.200 even sure i've seen a photo of it before. I 0:02:25.200 --> 0:02:28.120 think I just read like a casual mention somewhere or another. 0:02:28.919 --> 0:02:32.960 But Ahmed continues and says the Tlinket of Pacific Northwest 0:02:33.040 --> 0:02:36.320 were involved in both conflict and trade with Russians looking 0:02:36.360 --> 0:02:39.080 for fur in the sixteen hundreds of the eighteen hundreds, 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:42.400 and through them were exposed to Chinese Chian coins, whose 0:02:42.440 --> 0:02:45.000 central doughnut hole made for an easy way to secure 0:02:45.040 --> 0:02:47.440 the coins into a layer. This is one of those 0:02:47.480 --> 0:02:50.520 examples that exist squarely in the historical record, But I 0:02:50.560 --> 0:02:53.600 often think about how nuts it would seem if it 0:02:53.639 --> 0:02:55.920 did not, and we had to guess that the links 0:02:55.919 --> 0:02:59.560 that brought Chinese currency into this use in North America. 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:00.959 Yeah, yeah. 0:03:01.240 --> 0:03:04.160 Even beyond this example, I think the Tlingett and other 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:07.240 Pacific Coast people like the Hata had some of the 0:03:07.240 --> 0:03:10.480 coolest and most unique armor in North America, with elaborately 0:03:10.520 --> 0:03:13.240 carved heavy wooden armor, often covering the trunk as well 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:15.480 as the neck and head, leaving just a slit for 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:16.000 the eyes. 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:18.680 And again here rob I pulled in a picture that 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:22.680 Ahmed linked into the outline. This is of armor, the 0:03:22.800 --> 0:03:25.799 armor he mentioned in a museum collection today and this 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:29.600 also looks very interesting, very cool, Like the armored part 0:03:29.639 --> 0:03:33.560 on the torso is composed of kind of ribs, like 0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:37.600 vertically aligned ribs that all all go side to side 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:40.000 around the lower part of the torso, and then a 0:03:40.080 --> 0:03:44.480 narrower plate of ribs like that coming up through the chest. Yeah, 0:03:44.480 --> 0:03:46.920 and then the helmet part of it is fascinating. It's 0:03:46.920 --> 0:03:50.120 sort of bullet shaped, coming up into a cone on 0:03:50.200 --> 0:03:53.880 the top with beautiful like red and orange decorations, and 0:03:53.920 --> 0:03:56.080 then below that the carvings on the face have a 0:03:56.160 --> 0:04:01.080 kind of monstrous marine mammal face kind of design. Is 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:02.320 that what you're seeing too? 0:04:02.680 --> 0:04:08.480 Yeah, Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's very cool. Ahmed continues 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:10.960 here and says, for anybody interested in this, I highly 0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:14.280 recommend the book Native North American Armor, Shields and Fortifications 0:04:14.280 --> 0:04:17.000 by David Jones. It makes it clear that while we 0:04:17.000 --> 0:04:19.279 do not typically think of the indigenous people of North 0:04:19.320 --> 0:04:22.640 America being armored, that's because we imagine them largely in 0:04:22.680 --> 0:04:26.520 the firearm age. Just like contemporary European armies who came 0:04:26.520 --> 0:04:29.000 from a tradition of heavy armor. Think of a medieval 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:32.960 versus a Napoleonic soldier, Indigenous Americans put protection aside in 0:04:33.000 --> 0:04:37.400 favor of mobility. Once firearms made heavy armor and shields obsolete, 0:04:37.920 --> 0:04:40.760 with some interesting exceptions in areas like the Great Plains 0:04:41.040 --> 0:04:44.840 and the Pueblo cultures where shields had spiritual significance. It's 0:04:44.880 --> 0:04:47.400 a great look at the very diverse cultural spheres in 0:04:47.480 --> 0:04:52.520 pre colonial North America seen through the lens of military defenses. Anyways, 0:04:52.839 --> 0:04:54.640 keep up the great work, Amed. 0:04:54.640 --> 0:04:57.880 Well, thank you so much, Ahmed. Yeah, this was really interesting. 0:04:57.960 --> 0:05:00.000 Thank you for sharing with us. In fact, you always 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:02.719 write such great emails. Please get in touch after every 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:03.320 series we do. 0:05:04.200 --> 0:05:06.920 All right, looks like we received some listener mail related 0:05:06.960 --> 0:05:08.839 to our series on cynicism. 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:11.919 Yes, let's see, Rob, you want me to do this 0:05:12.000 --> 0:05:21.359 one from Tea? Yeah, Tea says morning fellas loved the 0:05:21.360 --> 0:05:24.039 series on cynicism. If you'd be so kind to throw 0:05:24.040 --> 0:05:26.280 it back into the Saturday Mix in a few months, 0:05:26.440 --> 0:05:28.760 I'd like to listen to it again after some time 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:33.280 to reflect. Can't promise anything, Tea. Usually we let it 0:05:33.560 --> 0:05:36.039 around a year ago by maybe before we do a rerun, 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:38.760 but it varies some but you will probably hear it 0:05:38.760 --> 0:05:42.000 again anyway. Of course, you can listen to it anytime 0:05:42.040 --> 0:05:46.080 you want, right, Yeah, yeah, the magic of asynchronous media, 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:49.400 So Tea goes on to say, one thing I did 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:52.920 want to point out is that legitimate companies are training 0:05:53.000 --> 0:05:57.160 their customer base to be cynical to anything that seems 0:05:57.200 --> 0:06:01.760 to be communication from them. The fish and the smishers 0:06:01.920 --> 0:06:04.159 have gotten so good. I'm not sure if I know 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:07.159 the phrase smishers fishers of course, is you know, people 0:06:07.200 --> 0:06:10.760 fishing for information through like emails and stuff smishers? Would 0:06:10.760 --> 0:06:12.720 that be SMS fishers. 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:14.479 Text message pad too that I just I know from 0:06:14.520 --> 0:06:18.080 context of the sentence that they're bad as well, and 0:06:18.120 --> 0:06:21.280 I don't trust them. Actually, JJ just confirmed for us 0:06:21.360 --> 0:06:24.760 that smishers does in fact mean that, which is nice 0:06:24.800 --> 0:06:27.600 because now I have a nicer name for them than 0:06:27.640 --> 0:06:29.640 the one I usually call them when when I get 0:06:29.640 --> 0:06:31.120 one of these messages on my phone. 0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:35.240 But if it's SMS, why are they smishers and not smissshers? 0:06:36.400 --> 0:06:38.200 I think you answered your own question there. 0:06:38.400 --> 0:06:42.359 Anyway, Tea Rights, I'm adjacent to the mortgage industry, and 0:06:42.480 --> 0:06:45.360 part of our product sends out emails about paying your 0:06:45.400 --> 0:06:48.960 mortgage or things that happened on your account. We actively 0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:52.039 avoid putting links to anything in those emails, simply so 0:06:52.160 --> 0:06:56.000 the instructions to the customers can be to never click 0:06:56.040 --> 0:06:59.159 on links and emails that seem to be about your mortgage. 0:06:59.520 --> 0:07:03.600 Always go log into the portal. The text messages we 0:07:03.640 --> 0:07:06.720 send out never have an actionable link in them. They're 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:09.720 all essentially this payment was made to your account. If 0:07:09.800 --> 0:07:12.680 you have questions, log into your portal. And this is 0:07:12.760 --> 0:07:15.840 also the customer service can reiterate to the customers to 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:20.240 not click on things about your mortgage. If you've bought 0:07:20.240 --> 0:07:23.040 a house recently, likely there are footers at the bottom 0:07:23.080 --> 0:07:27.040 of your agent's emails, your lenders emails, your title attorney's emails, etc. 0:07:27.760 --> 0:07:31.800 Saying to not trust any wiring instructions without verifying first. 0:07:32.160 --> 0:07:35.080 There are some real horror stories of fishers getting to 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:38.320 a buyer at just the wrong time and having them 0:07:38.360 --> 0:07:41.680 wire their down payment for the house to them instead 0:07:41.680 --> 0:07:46.640 of the Escro agent. Thanks as always, Tea from Florida. Yeah, 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:49.240 te this is really interesting and I have a number 0:07:49.280 --> 0:07:51.600 of thoughts here. This actually connects to something I've said 0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:54.200 on the show. I think months or even years ago 0:07:54.240 --> 0:07:56.480 before we did the Cynicism series, and so I'll come 0:07:56.560 --> 0:07:59.520 back to that in a minute. But I remember when 0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:03.120 I was not too long ago going through the mortgage process, 0:08:03.520 --> 0:08:06.120 we got lots of warnings exactly like this, that we 0:08:06.160 --> 0:08:10.280 would likely be hammered with attempted scams, you know, while 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:13.080 you're involved in getting a mortgage, or when you've recently 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:16.080 gotten a mortgage, Just be aware of that. Also, all 0:08:16.120 --> 0:08:18.760 this stuff you're mentioning, don't wire money except to this 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:23.240 exact account. Ignore emails giving you a link to click on, 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:26.320 or saying that account details have changed, stuff like that. 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:31.560 And I would argue that this kind of particular preparation 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:36.920 within the mortgage lending scenario falls more under the reasonable 0:08:37.000 --> 0:08:41.719 social skepticism umbrella than under social cynicism. And remember in 0:08:41.760 --> 0:08:44.319 the series, we made the distinction that, at least as 0:08:44.320 --> 0:08:47.600 we were using the terms, skepticism is like doing your 0:08:47.640 --> 0:08:50.880 best to either grant or withhold trust on the basis 0:08:50.880 --> 0:08:55.480 of evidence. You're looking for objective clues, objective information about 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:59.280 the trustworthiness of a person or situation, whereas cynicism is 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:04.280 a bias, it's an evidence neutral bias against trust. So 0:09:04.400 --> 0:09:07.160 another way I'd put it relevant to your example t 0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:10.360 is that I would not call it cynical to be 0:09:10.520 --> 0:09:15.199 cautious of scams in a situation where scams are very 0:09:15.240 --> 0:09:18.240 common and very dangerous. It would be cynical to be 0:09:18.280 --> 0:09:21.360 cautious of scams in a situation where you have no 0:09:21.480 --> 0:09:25.000 good reason or evidence to suspect a scam is taking place. 0:09:25.520 --> 0:09:29.840 Yeah, Like, it's cynical to assume everyone is Jason Vorhees, 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:34.360 but it's it's healthy to assume that anyone wandering through 0:09:34.400 --> 0:09:36.839 the woods in a hockey mask with a big old 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:39.880 machete is Jason Vorhees. And that's what and that's the 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:44.360 thing most of these sketchy emails and texts are. They 0:09:44.400 --> 0:09:47.560 are very sketchy for a reason, you know. I mean, 0:09:47.559 --> 0:09:50.960 I guess some are more convincing than others, obviously, But yeah, 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:53.520 this is a healthy amount of skepticism that people are 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:54.360 employing here. 0:09:55.040 --> 0:09:58.000 Great analogy, exactly right. So yeah, so I would call 0:09:58.040 --> 0:10:02.760 this like reasonable situation skepticism rather than cynicism. On the 0:10:02.840 --> 0:10:06.680 other hand, tee, I think I get exactly the point 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:09.720 you're driving at. We looked at a bunch of studies 0:10:09.920 --> 0:10:13.240 in the Cynicism series pointing to the fact that a 0:10:13.280 --> 0:10:18.040 person's level of social cynicism is I think partly an 0:10:18.080 --> 0:10:22.480 aspect of their fixed personality, but it's partly, not partially. 0:10:22.600 --> 0:10:25.880 It is something that can fluctuate, According to our experiences, 0:10:26.679 --> 0:10:30.160 and so I would suspect that having to deal with 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:34.800 a lot of situations in which a reasonable evidence based 0:10:34.840 --> 0:10:38.560 approach is to be very wary and stingy with trust, 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:43.080 that having those sorts of experiences could sort of bump 0:10:43.240 --> 0:10:47.560 up your general cynical biases in unrelated areas of life, 0:10:47.600 --> 0:10:50.959 whether or not those biases are actually protecting you the 0:10:51.720 --> 0:10:54.319 same way they would in these situations rife with scams. 0:10:54.840 --> 0:10:58.480 And another thing is beyond just like the mortgage process, 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:02.720 certain things about modern life I would say, especially about 0:11:02.720 --> 0:11:09.439 communications technology, I think have the toxic effect of creating 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:14.320 a digitally ever present threat of scams because the Internet 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:18.360 and also various forms of computer based automation have made 0:11:18.400 --> 0:11:21.480 scamming so much more efficient in the last couple decades. 0:11:21.559 --> 0:11:23.560 Like you can you know, it used to be real 0:11:23.640 --> 0:11:27.040 work to develop each scam lead, you know, back in 0:11:27.080 --> 0:11:29.760 the day, and now you can just spam millions of 0:11:29.800 --> 0:11:32.800 people with attempts to initiate an email or text message 0:11:32.800 --> 0:11:35.960 scam at extremely little cost. And even more, sort of 0:11:36.000 --> 0:11:40.000 customized or targeted scams are easier to confect with the 0:11:40.080 --> 0:11:45.480 digital tools available today. So even though in most aspects 0:11:45.520 --> 0:11:48.920 of life, most people most of the time are still 0:11:49.120 --> 0:11:54.120 very trustworthy. The fact that you are always digitally a 0:11:54.200 --> 0:11:57.840 few clicks away from an ever present threat of having 0:11:57.880 --> 0:12:00.959 your identity still in or having somebody steal your life savings, 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:07.280 that the proximity of that threat throughout your entire life now, 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:10.760 I think, just kind of waters the weeds of cynicism 0:12:10.920 --> 0:12:13.560 so that they grow everywhere in your mind, not just 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:16.640 where they belong, like which is like on sketchy looking 0:12:16.679 --> 0:12:20.360 emails and text messages. And so given all this, I 0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:23.400 think I've said this on the show before, I believe 0:12:23.440 --> 0:12:30.480 that it is underappreciated how maliciously influential internet and phone 0:12:30.559 --> 0:12:34.079 based scams are in our culture today, not just because 0:12:34.440 --> 0:12:37.640 of people's material losses. I mean, I think almost everybody 0:12:37.720 --> 0:12:40.240 knows somebody or has a has a close relative who's 0:12:40.280 --> 0:12:42.000 lost a bunch of money to some like, you know, 0:12:42.080 --> 0:12:45.600 to an email or phone scammer. But it's not just 0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:50.120 the material losses which can be devastating. It's because the 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:55.840 presence of these types of scams viciously undermines general social trust, 0:12:56.280 --> 0:12:58.800 which I think we now have even better reason to 0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:01.640 believe and a better underst standing of how that kind 0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:05.240 of generalized cynicism is a really really bad thing for 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:07.199 each individual and for the culture. 0:13:07.920 --> 0:13:10.040 Yeah, I mean I feel like it's honestly ruined some 0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:13.120 forms of communication, Like I don't answer my phone. Like 0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:17.160 if someone calls me, I just assume that it's some 0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:21.760 sort of at worst nefarious force, but perhaps just some 0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:23.719 sort of like a cold call, you know, trying to 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:26.040 get me to donate money and sometimes to a good cause. 0:13:26.200 --> 0:13:27.679 But I'm not going to do that over the phone 0:13:27.920 --> 0:13:31.680 because of all the scammers. So you know, I just 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:33.679 been like, all right, let it go to voicemail and 0:13:33.960 --> 0:13:35.360 I will probably delete it there. 0:13:35.600 --> 0:13:41.000 Yeah, our digital and communications environment has created an asymmetrical 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:45.120 scam thread where it's weird that I think it really 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:48.280 still is the case that you can trust most people 0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:50.840 most of the time, but at the same time, through 0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:55.240 electronic communication, a scammer is always just is right there 0:13:55.280 --> 0:13:58.320 waiting for you. You know, they're like a picked up 0:13:58.360 --> 0:14:01.079 phone call or a text message reply away. 0:14:01.800 --> 0:14:03.959 Yeah, we've made the world smaller in a lot of 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:06.880 wonderful ways, but also in a lot of terrifying ways. 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:10.120 So I might not put my faith in phone calls anymore. 0:14:10.360 --> 0:14:13.280 Maybe I should put my faith instead into mystery cults. 0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:16.080 We of course did a series on mystery cults, and 0:14:16.200 --> 0:14:19.720 we continue to hear back from some folks about this topic. 0:14:20.160 --> 0:14:28.040 This one comes to us from Lex like says, super 0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:30.760 short message, but this was too funny and on point 0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:33.880 not to send your way. In your episodes about mystery cults, 0:14:33.880 --> 0:14:37.560 you discussed that certain techniques or special special effects might 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:40.800 be off putting because they seem deceptive or irreverent in 0:14:40.800 --> 0:14:44.360 some way. Looks like some churches are really towing that line, 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:47.000 and they included a link for us to check out here. 0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:51.040 And I'm not going to tell you how to define this. 0:14:51.680 --> 0:14:53.520 I don't know. Maybe you're sure familiar with this already, 0:14:53.560 --> 0:14:57.200 but it involves some sort of a church environment where 0:14:57.240 --> 0:15:01.280 there's like a big drop cloth that presents the this 0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:04.160 kind of like puppet Jesus that rises up from the tomb. 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:06.480 Am I interpreting this correctly? Yeah? 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:08.720 Yeah, So there's like an altar and then behind it, 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:11.040 by the way, it looks to me like it's an 0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:13.040 Easter service, but I can't tell for sure, and I 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:16.480 don't know where or what church this is, but yeah, 0:15:16.480 --> 0:15:19.040 there's like a tapestry in the background showing a golden 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:24.240 archway and a sunrise landscape. Also electronic dance music is thumping. 0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:27.080 It's like a four on the floor beat. But then 0:15:27.120 --> 0:15:30.480 suddenly the tapestry falls away and it reveals a different painting. 0:15:30.520 --> 0:15:33.120 It's like a blooming garden and a blue sky. And 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:37.000 then a spring loaded Jesus statue launches up out of 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:39.840 some hidden device in front of the painting, so that 0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:42.400 his head is framed by like a big painted halo 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:45.440 on the backdrop. Jesus is also holding a flag looks 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:48.520 like a red velvet flag. And no judgment by the way, 0:15:48.560 --> 0:15:51.200 you know, religious art and special effects. It's a matter 0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:53.720 of taste to some degree at least, But the switchblade 0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:56.720 Jesus was indeed funny to me. I think the funniest 0:15:56.720 --> 0:16:00.160 part was the speed at which Jesus rises up. He 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:02.960 had just risen slower, it would have been less funny. 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:05.440 I mean, I'm all for it. Yeah, throw some production 0:16:07.080 --> 0:16:11.320 into it, you know. Puppet Jesus'. Like I say, puppetry 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:17.440 is a legitimate and very ancient medium. It is an 0:16:17.520 --> 0:16:21.640 art form. Therefore, I think it's perfectly fine. It's great 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:25.680 that it should be involved in religious rites. It has 0:16:25.720 --> 0:16:28.920 been since time out of mind anyway, Le says, love 0:16:28.920 --> 0:16:31.040 the show and appreciate your hard work to bring it 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:31.360 to us. 0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:35.560 Happy Friday, Lex, Okay, general call the listeners here, please 0:16:35.600 --> 0:16:42.200 send us more examples of puppetry, animate statues and automata 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:45.760 used in earnest not for laughs, in religious services. I 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:46.880 want to see more of that. 0:16:47.320 --> 0:16:49.480 Yeah, yeah, I mean there are some terrific example. You know, 0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:53.480 very recently my family went and saw a performance of 0:16:53.840 --> 0:17:00.600 Javanese puppetry here at Emory here in Atlanta, Emory University, 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:06.240 and you know, these are generally they're telling retelling Hindu epics, 0:17:06.640 --> 0:17:10.080 you know, and it is a very traditional and like 0:17:10.200 --> 0:17:14.360 sacred performance. So yeah, I'd love to hear more examples 0:17:14.359 --> 0:17:17.560 of that sort of thing, as well as like contemporary examples, 0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:19.639 like there's a lot of church puppetry out there, like 0:17:19.680 --> 0:17:24.359 in Protestant services, and yeah, that that stuff can be 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:26.720 can be interesting in its own right as well. 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:37.480 All right, let's see here we got a message from Carlos. 0:17:37.720 --> 0:17:40.520 This is in response to our series on pretend play 0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:45.920 subject line in defense of Vygotsky. So, Rob, it's been 0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:48.920 a little while since we did this episode, so I've 0:17:48.960 --> 0:17:52.520 kind of forgotten the context of The person here that 0:17:52.560 --> 0:17:56.320 Carlos is talking about is the twentieth century Russian psychologist 0:17:56.480 --> 0:17:59.000 Love Vygotsky. Can you can you remind me what the 0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:01.720 context was in the episode that Vygotsky came up. 0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:04.959 Basically, I think we were talking more about the ideas 0:18:04.960 --> 0:18:08.600 of doctor Sandra Russ. There's a paper talking about her 0:18:08.640 --> 0:18:11.040 ideas and also comparing some of her ideas to those 0:18:11.040 --> 0:18:14.240 of Viogotsky. If memory serves though, I don't think any 0:18:14.240 --> 0:18:17.600 of Russ's ideas were like necessarily tearing down Vogotsky, but 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:22.760 you know, kind of like building upon them. But then again, 0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:25.639 I think that the comments here that Carlos wrote in 0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:28.280 about it are fair. So yeah, let's good and hear him. 0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:31.080 Okay, Carlos says, Hey, y'all just wanted to write in 0:18:31.200 --> 0:18:34.800 to defend Vygotsky, whom you featured in your recent episodes 0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:38.480 on imagination and play. In your episode, he came off 0:18:38.520 --> 0:18:41.520 as stodgy and anti play, but I'm not sure that's fair. 0:18:41.840 --> 0:18:44.240 I was already acquainted with his work as it pertains 0:18:44.240 --> 0:18:48.000 to art and literature, especially his the psychology of art. 0:18:48.359 --> 0:18:50.800 In this work, he seems to really appreciate the value 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:53.359 of art. While this isn't quite the same as play, 0:18:53.440 --> 0:18:56.920 it definitely gets into the importance of the imagination. Just 0:18:56.960 --> 0:18:59.960 a couple of quotes from the Mit Press Edition nineteen 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:04.120 seventy one. Quote, Thus, poetry or art is a special 0:19:04.160 --> 0:19:07.239 way of thinking which, in the final analysis, leads to 0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:11.399 the same results as scientific knowledge, but in a different way. 0:19:12.040 --> 0:19:16.600 And then also quote, psychological investigation reveals that art is 0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:21.760 the supreme center of biological and social individual processes in society, 0:19:22.119 --> 0:19:25.439 that it is a method for finding an equilibrium between 0:19:25.520 --> 0:19:28.640 man and his world in the most critical and important 0:19:28.640 --> 0:19:32.320 stages in his life. And then Carlos picks up again, 0:19:32.400 --> 0:19:34.720 not directly related to play, but he does seem to 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:37.600 have a great appreciation for the role of creativity, perhaps 0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:40.960 above and beyond productivity in society. 0:19:41.320 --> 0:19:45.240 Thanks Carlos, Yeah, yeah, well, thanks for writing in, Carlos, 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:50.160 A point well taken. And these are also some wonderful 0:19:50.200 --> 0:19:53.200 quotes here. All right, let's get into a little weird 0:19:53.240 --> 0:19:57.080 house cinema listener mail. It looks like we're continuing to 0:19:57.119 --> 0:20:00.720 hear from folks about the telephone box. This one comes 0:20:00.760 --> 0:20:08.760 to us from Bo. Bo says, Hi, guys, I love 0:20:08.800 --> 0:20:10.960 your show and have listened for years. I'm a little 0:20:10.960 --> 0:20:12.600 behind in the moment, but I was thrilled to hear 0:20:12.640 --> 0:20:16.000 your episode on La Caabina. This struck a chord with me. 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:19.240 You mentioned that some films or movies viewed as a 0:20:19.320 --> 0:20:21.800 child may leave a lasting impression, and for me this 0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:24.800 was the one. I'm Norwegian but lived a few years 0:20:24.840 --> 0:20:27.400 in Spain as a child in the seventies. At the time, 0:20:27.440 --> 0:20:30.440 there were only two TV channels there, both controlled by 0:20:30.440 --> 0:20:34.119 the regime. TV one was the news propaganda channel and 0:20:34.200 --> 0:20:37.119 TV two was a bit more for entertainment. Mind you, 0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:39.639 no channels apping, as you had to go over to 0:20:39.680 --> 0:20:42.040 the TV and push a button to change the channel. 0:20:42.240 --> 0:20:43.000 Good old days. 0:20:43.160 --> 0:20:47.040 Yeah, So, one day, watching whatever was on TV two, 0:20:47.200 --> 0:20:49.560 this film was shown. This was in seventy three or 0:20:49.600 --> 0:20:51.840 seventy four, so it was a rerun. I was twelve 0:20:51.960 --> 0:20:54.119 or thirteen, and it started out as funny, that is 0:20:54.320 --> 0:20:56.919 until the end, which scared the Bejesus out of me 0:20:57.200 --> 0:20:59.720 and gave me nightmares for some time, and it definitely 0:20:59.760 --> 0:21:04.000 became unforgettable. At the same time, of course, I had 0:21:04.000 --> 0:21:06.600 no idea about the symbolism of the film. The director 0:21:06.600 --> 0:21:08.560 says that the film can be interpreted in many ways, 0:21:08.560 --> 0:21:11.680 which is true, but for me, in the grown up hindsight, 0:21:11.880 --> 0:21:16.160 it is clearly a political statement. Remember that disappearances actually 0:21:16.240 --> 0:21:19.399 happened at this time under the Franco regime. What happened 0:21:19.400 --> 0:21:21.960 to those people, Well, obviously they did not end up 0:21:21.960 --> 0:21:24.520 in telephone boxes in a bunker. But this is what 0:21:24.640 --> 0:21:28.680 the film carefully addresses. And then we get a bullet list. Here. 0:21:29.080 --> 0:21:32.240 The surveillance view of the plaza may may be someone 0:21:32.440 --> 0:21:36.240 pushing the button. If someone suspicious enters the box, the 0:21:36.359 --> 0:21:40.800 tie is key as a symbol of nonconformity, a slash suspicion. 0:21:41.160 --> 0:21:43.320 The other guy caught in a separate box also has 0:21:43.320 --> 0:21:46.600 an unusual tie. We talked about the pattern a bit above, 0:21:46.680 --> 0:21:50.160 all these times with a dotted pattern. On the other hand, 0:21:50.200 --> 0:21:52.679 there is a short scene during the transport where a 0:21:52.720 --> 0:21:55.440 guy who exits a red telephone box with no problem. 0:21:55.560 --> 0:21:57.480 He wears a nice neutral gray tie. 0:21:57.960 --> 0:21:59.840 H I didn't notice that. 0:22:00.160 --> 0:22:05.000 Yeah, the mindless telecompany workers, non thinking and just doing 0:22:05.040 --> 0:22:09.280 their job, actually symbolizing normal people not wanting to upset anything. 0:22:09.920 --> 0:22:14.280 The apartment complex building, the uniform, the uniform frame for 0:22:14.359 --> 0:22:18.600 the followers, and the circus performers are the marginalized weirdos 0:22:18.640 --> 0:22:22.120 that are non threatening to the regime, providing plausible excuse 0:22:22.240 --> 0:22:25.119 for openness. I could go on, the bottom line is 0:22:25.160 --> 0:22:27.480 that this film deeply touched me and I am glad 0:22:27.520 --> 0:22:31.080 that you covered it. Bes regards Bo now living in Copenhagen. 0:22:30.800 --> 0:22:32.680 Well thanks, Bo, I think, yeah, you make some great 0:22:32.720 --> 0:22:34.960 points there. I think we talked about this in the episode. 0:22:34.960 --> 0:22:37.800 But my take on it was despite the director saying that, 0:22:38.280 --> 0:22:41.639 you know, the film could be interpreted as being about 0:22:41.640 --> 0:22:46.119