WEBVTT - Part Three: Why Did Robert E. Lee Turn Traitor? 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:09.600 Media, what's losing my Civil War? 0:00:09.880 --> 0:00:11.640 I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. 0:00:11.880 --> 0:00:13.560 I didn't know how to I've got I've got one 0:00:13.560 --> 0:00:16.439 for part four. I promise you got one for part four, 0:00:16.520 --> 0:00:19.360 but I didn't have one for part three. Uh, this 0:00:19.400 --> 0:00:22.560 is all behind the Bastards a podcast about Robert E. 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:25.920 Lee for the last week or so. 0:00:26.000 --> 0:00:28.520 Mister silver medal head ass, mister. 0:00:28.960 --> 0:00:32.320 Let's get I'll give me a bronze, right your bronze dude. 0:00:32.440 --> 0:00:35.879 My one of my favorite moments in history was the 0:00:35.960 --> 0:00:40.000 first time I got to go to Crow Nation, Montana, 0:00:40.159 --> 0:00:44.560 the like little big horn sitting bull monument, and that 0:00:44.720 --> 0:00:49.360 this whole thing for General Custard, like this whole statue 0:00:49.360 --> 0:00:50.839 for it, and I'm looking at him and I'm like, 0:00:52.280 --> 0:00:56.279 this is a second place trophy that man lost, Like. 0:00:56.320 --> 0:01:00.560 Participation, you get statues for losing like anyway. 0:01:00.640 --> 0:01:02.640 I also, on a separate note, I think it's funny 0:01:02.640 --> 0:01:05.919 that we ever give out bronze medals because like gold, 0:01:06.160 --> 0:01:10.360 obviously precious, never tarnishes, silver a lot harder to tarnish, 0:01:10.480 --> 0:01:14.600 also pretty precious, and then bronze, Like, come on, guys, 0:01:14.920 --> 0:01:17.160 we stopped using that ship for swords, like two thousand 0:01:17.240 --> 0:01:18.320 years ago. That's a team. 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:21.200 It's named in age like it means a time. 0:01:21.240 --> 0:01:25.800 Yeah, the bronze age which medal, Yeah, we'll give We'll 0:01:25.840 --> 0:01:26.400 give Robert E. 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:30.280 Lee a bronze medals, bronze Welcome, Welcome back to the show. 0:01:30.280 --> 0:01:35.479 Everybody say again, Jason Petty aka PROP. In our first 0:01:35.480 --> 0:01:39.679 two episodes, we established the background and life of Robert E. 0:01:39.800 --> 0:01:40.000 Lee. 0:01:40.080 --> 0:01:43.559 In part two we talked about some pretty fucking unpleasant stuff. 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:46.679 And today we're we're answering the question. We're getting into 0:01:46.800 --> 0:01:50.280 kind of the critical moment of Bobby Lee's life, right, 0:01:50.320 --> 0:01:54.480 which is his decision to become a trader, to go 0:01:54.680 --> 0:01:58.080 back on his oath to the United States and his 0:01:58.240 --> 0:02:02.480 oath of loyalty in service to the military, uh, and 0:02:02.680 --> 0:02:05.200 become a fucking trader. So that's that's what I do. 0:02:05.480 --> 0:02:08.400 Think he's a Bobby. I think he's a Robbie. You 0:02:08.400 --> 0:02:12.000 think he's a Robbie instead, And Robbin said, because I 0:02:12.120 --> 0:02:14.120 like to call you Bobby. 0:02:13.680 --> 0:02:16.080 And I don't want to, but I hate being called that. 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:19.120 Yeah, but that's what's fun about it, and I don't 0:02:19.120 --> 0:02:22.359 want the association. So I think he's a Robbie because 0:02:22.360 --> 0:02:25.919 he's also he robs, he sucks, he does, he does suck, 0:02:26.200 --> 0:02:28.120 And it couldn't be it couldn't be a better time 0:02:28.160 --> 0:02:30.280 to talk about this, especially with what's going on in 0:02:30.280 --> 0:02:34.640 the Supreme Court about like, yes, what is what is reason? 0:02:34.960 --> 0:02:38.200 What is treason? What's a trader? Yeah, this law only 0:02:38.200 --> 0:02:40.600 applies to everyone except for the highest office. 0:02:40.680 --> 0:02:41.640 I'm sorry, what. 0:02:41.960 --> 0:02:45.360 Well with Robert It's at least stay a clearer case 0:02:45.360 --> 0:02:47.919 of treatretty because there's really there's really no other way 0:02:47.960 --> 0:02:48.400 to look at this. 0:02:48.480 --> 0:02:53.160 But I don't nobody this article three is about you, bam. Yeah, 0:02:53.919 --> 0:02:55.560 the law exists because of y'all. 0:02:56.080 --> 0:02:58.880 It's not a hard question like as to whether or 0:02:58.919 --> 0:03:00.639 not this guy is guilty. And it's one of those 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:04.040 things where within kind of the Lost Cause mythology and 0:03:04.080 --> 0:03:06.680 within all of like the coverage of Lee's life that's 0:03:06.680 --> 0:03:10.400 sort of influenced by Lost Cause shit, this always still 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:13.520 gets softened. It's weird we have this like hatred in 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:17.160 the United States of actually calling traders traders if they're 0:03:17.240 --> 0:03:21.240 like white conservatives. Yeah, and that does actually extend to 0:03:21.320 --> 0:03:23.360 Bobby Lee. Like I just said, it was very clear, 0:03:23.400 --> 0:03:25.520 but people still do this shit, and it kind of 0:03:25.520 --> 0:03:27.120 make that case, I'm going to start again by reading 0:03:27.160 --> 0:03:29.519 from our huge head on the cover children's book Who 0:03:29.560 --> 0:03:30.200 was Robert E. 0:03:30.360 --> 0:03:30.560 Lee? 0:03:30.800 --> 0:03:33.160 Which I'm giving these books some shit. They're actually not 0:03:33.240 --> 0:03:35.640 that bad. There's actually a decent amount of really good 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:39.520 historic information, and they come across as like pretty negative 0:03:39.560 --> 0:03:42.280 towards the Confederacy. Why I keep bringing them up is 0:03:42.320 --> 0:03:46.080 because they still include these bits like this one where 0:03:46.200 --> 0:03:48.720 where they're taught they're introducing the concept of like the 0:03:48.760 --> 0:03:51.640 Civil War that we had killed about a million people 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:54.480 and Robert's participation in it, and this is how they 0:03:54.520 --> 0:03:57.640 describe it. Robert grew up with a great love for 0:03:57.760 --> 0:04:00.320 his country, yet in eighteen sixty one, the country he's 0:04:00.320 --> 0:04:02.360 so admired was torn apart by the start of the 0:04:02.400 --> 0:04:05.320 Civil War. Robert was torn too. He wanted the country 0:04:05.360 --> 0:04:07.560 to remain united. He did not want the South to 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:10.200 break away from the United States and form a separate country. 0:04:10.400 --> 0:04:13.600 But that is what happened. And what they're doing there, 0:04:13.760 --> 0:04:17.880 they're using that like special exonerative case of like English 0:04:17.920 --> 0:04:20.799 grammar that you normally use for police or the IDF 0:04:20.880 --> 0:04:23.440 where it's like the country was torn apart. 0:04:23.480 --> 0:04:26.000 Listen, who who torn it apart? Yeah? 0:04:26.080 --> 0:04:29.080 Who made that decision. Why wasn't torn apart? 0:04:29.560 --> 0:04:31.400 You know, it's like that's. 0:04:31.240 --> 0:04:34.000 Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, a kid in Chicago walked into 0:04:34.000 --> 0:04:37.040 a police officer's bullet, Like how did that happen? 0:04:37.440 --> 0:04:39.320 Yeah, exactly that, And. 0:04:39.279 --> 0:04:41.200 I'm like, dude, just hearing them say it, it's like 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:45.800 I made the mistake because, again, the child of a 0:04:46.160 --> 0:04:50.560 rather militant man that I thought, your children need to 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:53.320 know as quick as possible when they ready to know 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:55.440 the world they about to step into. 0:04:56.160 --> 0:04:59.839 So I had. 0:04:59.680 --> 0:05:03.880 No problem, I feel terrible about it now showing my 0:05:04.000 --> 0:05:08.839 third grade daughter images of the Middle Passage and what 0:05:08.920 --> 0:05:12.280 the what slave ships and how it looked and how 0:05:12.279 --> 0:05:15.280 we was laid out. I had no problem showing her this. 0:05:16.080 --> 0:05:20.760 My wife was like, Jason, she's eight years old. Maybe 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:25.040 there's a more sanitized way to reveal this truth to her. 0:05:25.080 --> 0:05:28.039 And I was like, it's not sanitized. You can't clean 0:05:28.120 --> 0:05:30.920 up even right. So I was like, no, you gotta 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:35.560 tell them, you know. Now, second time around, having another child, 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:37.960 I was like, yeah, this's probably a probably an age 0:05:37.960 --> 0:05:40.719 appropriate way to like lay out this, you know. So 0:05:41.240 --> 0:05:45.120 I'm saying that to say in on one hand, the 0:05:45.160 --> 0:05:49.159 Big Head Books is like this is four children. There's 0:05:49.200 --> 0:05:50.839 got to be a more age There's got to be 0:05:50.839 --> 0:05:54.000 an age appropriate way to say what's going on. I'm 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:56.240 my argument is, I don't know if that's what they're 0:05:56.240 --> 0:06:02.279 doing though, Like that's more lost cause z and sanitized 0:06:02.800 --> 0:06:04.200 way to do it, you know. 0:06:05.080 --> 0:06:08.640 Yeah, yeah, it really is. And I'm frustrated by this, 0:06:08.760 --> 0:06:12.200 but it also it's so consistent among the way people 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:16.640 talk about Lee and I go, you know, there is 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:19.680 one thing I do kind of I think is appropriate 0:06:19.800 --> 0:06:21.839 about this, although I don't think it means to be, 0:06:21.960 --> 0:06:24.400 which is one of the ways you do have to 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:26.880 look at from the perspective of people like Lee and 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:29.880 Lee is he's going to be an active player obviously 0:06:30.200 --> 0:06:33.440 in the treason of the South, but he's not up 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:36.599 until the point that secession crisis starts, right He's not 0:06:36.680 --> 0:06:38.560 a guy who's in politics. He's not a guy who's 0:06:38.600 --> 0:06:42.640 advocating for secession prior to that. And for people like him, 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:45.080 which is most of the country, I think there is 0:06:45.120 --> 0:06:47.719 actually a little bit in the way in which all 0:06:47.760 --> 0:06:50.960 of this comes on like a storm, like a weather pattern, 0:06:51.000 --> 0:06:52.440 and I think that those of us sitting in the 0:06:52.440 --> 0:06:55.520 country right now watching shit escalate to who knows what 0:06:55.640 --> 0:06:58.200 the fuck's gonna happen later this year with the election, 0:06:59.279 --> 0:07:01.880 you can to some and empathize with, like, yeah, these 0:07:01.920 --> 0:07:05.360 massive civil conflicts that up to a certain point, it's 0:07:05.360 --> 0:07:08.599 a small chunk of the country that's actively ratcheting things 0:07:08.680 --> 0:07:11.560 towards calamity and for the rest of us trying to 0:07:11.760 --> 0:07:13.760 just trying to make rent, trying to like live your life. 0:07:13.840 --> 0:07:16.800 It does feel like a fucking storm hitting right. I 0:07:16.840 --> 0:07:19.240 don't say that to take any agency away from him, 0:07:19.240 --> 0:07:21.760 but I did. I found myself kind of torn between 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:23.760 those two things right where I was just like, true, 0:07:23.960 --> 0:07:26.120 I do kind of feel like that sometimes, like it's 0:07:26.120 --> 0:07:28.120 a weather pattern that just moved in and you have 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:29.560 to just kind of brace for it. 0:07:29.840 --> 0:07:30.520 Braw feel you. 0:07:30.680 --> 0:07:33.960 Man. There's even when we get into the Lost Cause episodes, 0:07:34.320 --> 0:07:37.000 the man, I keep going back to this. But the 0:07:37.040 --> 0:07:40.000 more that I say it, as much as I am 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:44.200 a victim of that shit, it is it's so human, 0:07:44.880 --> 0:07:50.400 like the way that it's snowballed into being what it 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:54.440 it's become, it's a human And then if you're not 0:07:54.640 --> 0:07:57.840 one of the creators of it, it's just you're just 0:07:58.720 --> 0:08:01.360 you just happen to live in Tuscaloosa. 0:08:01.760 --> 0:08:02.360 You know what I'm saying. 0:08:02.400 --> 0:08:06.080 You're just like, I mean, yeah, this is the air 0:08:06.120 --> 0:08:08.400 we breathe, you know, it's so human. 0:08:09.040 --> 0:08:09.200 Yeah. 0:08:09.320 --> 0:08:12.600 Yes, And that's kind of the only bits from Lee 0:08:12.640 --> 0:08:15.400 that are a little bit understandable, where he's writing back 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:18.800 to his family as like stuff is escalating towards open 0:08:18.880 --> 0:08:21.520 violence and is like I can't believe this is happening, 0:08:21.560 --> 0:08:24.200 Like why is no one stopping this? Where it's like 0:08:24.240 --> 0:08:27.160 he's on the wrong side of it, But that basic 0:08:27.160 --> 0:08:29.640 emotion of like how the fuck is this happening? I 0:08:29.760 --> 0:08:33.480 do actually understand to a degree of thanks. Yeah, It's 0:08:33.520 --> 0:08:36.080 just it's one of those things I'm reading right now, 0:08:36.120 --> 0:08:40.199 the book Nixon Land Again, which which covers like this 0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:43.960 massive period, this very undercover period in US history where 0:08:44.000 --> 0:08:47.400 all there was this unbelievable wave of violence towards the 0:08:47.440 --> 0:08:50.800 anti war movement, people assassinated and murdered for handing out 0:08:50.840 --> 0:08:53.200 pamphlets against the Vietnam War in the streets. That happen 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:56.760 over and over again. And there's almost a degree which 0:08:56.760 --> 0:09:00.080 it's comforting, not because that's good, because it's terrible that 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:02.880 that happened, but because when I hear about the wave 0:09:02.960 --> 0:09:05.800 of violence that's hitting us now, particularly over like the 0:09:06.400 --> 0:09:08.880 anti war and Gaza movement, just to know that like, 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:12.400 all right, well this isn't a historic novelty, Yeah, this 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:14.800 is not This is something that happens again and again, 0:09:15.200 --> 0:09:18.720 you know, And I guess just knowing people made it 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:21.960 like went through that before. It's not good, but it 0:09:22.040 --> 0:09:26.760 is like, okay, we're not letting an unprecedented times exactly anyway. 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:29.280 So in other words, while Lee is going to exercise 0:09:29.320 --> 0:09:31.199 a huge amount of agency from kind of the start 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:35.000 of hostilities on afterwards, he is kind of carried along 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:37.320 by the tide of history in the couple of years 0:09:37.559 --> 0:09:40.080 prior to things. And he's going to spend the lead 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:43.439 up to the eighteen sixty election actually in San Antonio, 0:09:44.000 --> 0:09:47.040 watching the Democratic Party shatter in the face of Lincoln's 0:09:47.080 --> 0:09:49.720 campaign and this debate over what to do about slavery. 0:09:49.760 --> 0:09:52.240 And it's this very interesting moment where he is like 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:55.200 put into conflict with secessionists. 0:09:55.200 --> 0:09:55.800 We don't live. 0:09:56.320 --> 0:09:58.240 This isn't really a period of Lee that I thought about, 0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:01.960 but like, he is a federal officer in a state 0:10:02.040 --> 0:10:05.480 that is actively preparing to secede, and he becomes the 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:09.599 target of secessionist anger, right, because he's this representative of 0:10:09.640 --> 0:10:12.000 the federal government that he's going to wind up fighting against. 0:10:12.200 --> 0:10:15.000 But that hasn't happened yet, and so it puts him 0:10:15.000 --> 0:10:18.680 in this very conflicted position. The New York Times, kind 0:10:18.679 --> 0:10:21.480 of echoing Lee's own thoughts in this period, writes that 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:24.920 extremists in the Democratic Party were delighted at the idea 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:27.360 of a Lincoln victory quote which will give them an 0:10:27.360 --> 0:10:31.000 opportunity to rally the South in favor of dissillusion. In 0:10:31.040 --> 0:10:34.120 other words, secessionists are being written about and discussed by 0:10:34.160 --> 0:10:37.640 the centrists of the day as much as accelerationists are today, 0:10:37.800 --> 0:10:40.400 right where there's this like attitude that will A lot 0:10:40.440 --> 0:10:42.600 of secessionists want Lincoln to win because they think it's 0:10:42.640 --> 0:10:45.240 going to inevitably provoke him this conflict that we have 0:10:45.400 --> 0:10:50.840 to have, right, And Lee is diehard against Lincoln, obviously, 0:10:50.840 --> 0:10:53.440 but he's and he's against Lincoln in part because he 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:57.600 wants He thinks that like he agrees with the accelerationists, Basically, 0:10:57.840 --> 0:11:01.480 he doesn't want Lincoln to win, like the acceleration it's stupid. 0:11:01.559 --> 0:11:05.240 He agrees that if Lincoln wins, the conflict is inevitable right. 0:11:05.520 --> 0:11:08.840 There's this thing like I'm thinking about I get this 0:11:08.880 --> 0:11:11.559 sometimes I get this like anti feeling, like it's it's 0:11:11.679 --> 0:11:14.600 very unique to my career. But like when you're backstage 0:11:14.640 --> 0:11:16.760 at like a big event or a festival concert and 0:11:16.800 --> 0:11:20.440 you see all the wires like all over there, like 0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:23.360 I'm like, I'm antsy that I'm like, let's just get 0:11:23.400 --> 0:11:26.880 it over with, and someone pull a chord, like just 0:11:26.960 --> 0:11:28.559 rip it up, just get it over with, like just. 0:11:28.840 --> 0:11:29.520 Somebody do it. 0:11:29.559 --> 0:11:32.120 Somebody destroy it, like or like if you know, for 0:11:32.360 --> 0:11:35.480 like some more violent stuff, when you're just like let's 0:11:35.520 --> 0:11:38.320 just fight, let's just do it, Like waiting for it's worse. 0:11:38.400 --> 0:11:42.240 It's like, let's just let's just fight. When you've been 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:46.599 in a lot of violent situations. Yeah, you understand this intimately, 0:11:46.720 --> 0:11:49.840 which is that bracing for impact is worse than impact. 0:11:49.880 --> 0:11:52.959 It's worse, yes, yes, it's more so worse. It's not 0:11:52.960 --> 0:11:55.120 necessarily worse because you can die from impact. Yeah, but 0:11:55.240 --> 0:11:58.360 it's more thinking about it. Yeah, your fear. You're just like, 0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:01.719 it's just let's just do it. Let's get it over with. 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:02.040 You know. 0:12:02.480 --> 0:12:05.360 It's the same reason most Americans are more scared of 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:07.200 being on a plane than they are driving, even though 0:12:07.240 --> 0:12:09.680 you're a thousand times in more danger while driving, but 0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:13.880 you're in control of the car at least theoretically right now, realistically, 0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:15.959 are you in control of some drunk eye smashing and 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:19.400 fucking miata. No, of course not, but in your head 0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:21.920 at least your behind the wheel as opposed to sitting 0:12:22.040 --> 0:12:24.000 in a jet where you're much safer, but you have 0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:27.199 no agency on what's going to happen, right, And that 0:12:27.280 --> 0:12:30.040 is that is like most of the country, including Roberty 0:12:30.120 --> 0:12:32.720 Lee at this point, and for him it's it is 0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:35.440 particularly I'm not trying to say like empathize with him, 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:37.520 but you need to understand where his head is. Right 0:12:37.559 --> 0:12:41.480 after Lincoln wins, South Carolina authorizes a secession convention and 0:12:41.520 --> 0:12:46.160 this really sparks secession fever across the South, where Lee 0:12:46.320 --> 0:12:49.199 is a federal representative and he writes home to his family, 0:12:49.480 --> 0:12:52.319 the lone Star is floating all over this state as 0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:55.120 Texan independence becomes that people are like putting up lone 0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:58.280 star flags around the fort that he's at rights and 0:12:58.320 --> 0:13:00.000 that's a threat, right, you know. 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:02.559 Yeah, that's that's pretty poetic to say it like that. 0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:04.599 The lone Star is floating all over the state, and 0:13:04.640 --> 0:13:06.400 I'm like, yeah, I hate I hate that. That's kind 0:13:06.400 --> 0:13:07.160 of poetic jerk. 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:09.840 He's not a terrible writer. Most people were better writers 0:13:09.880 --> 0:13:11.959 back then because you kind of had to be you 0:13:12.040 --> 0:13:15.320 could write. Yeah, the discourse around all this was as 0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:18.120 detached from reality as it is today, with one text 0:13:18.160 --> 0:13:21.480 and paper shrieking the North has gone overwhelmingly for Negro 0:13:21.600 --> 0:13:25.200 equality and Southern vassalage. Southern men, will you submit to 0:13:25.240 --> 0:13:26.160 this degradation? 0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:30.600 So it is about oh whoa, oh so it is 0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:34.800 about the negro Oh yeah, you just say there was 0:13:34.920 --> 0:13:37.520 no debate about that at the time. Yeah, exactly. So 0:13:37.920 --> 0:13:40.720 it's about so it's about the okay, got it? Yeah, 0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:43.040 it really is some like white lives matter shit right, 0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:43.800 very much so. 0:13:44.440 --> 0:13:44.720 Yeah. 0:13:44.800 --> 0:13:49.120 And so by December, Texas hasn't started its own secession 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:51.920 convention and Lee when this happens. He writes home to 0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:53.960 his wife and he's basically like, yeah, if they succeed, 0:13:54.080 --> 0:13:56.040 I will head home, you know, I will, I will 0:13:56.120 --> 0:13:59.560 like return, I promise, And he's it's because she's worried 0:13:59.559 --> 0:14:01.760 he's going to get killed by some Texas you know. 0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:05.200 That's and that's not an unrealistic threat. It started in 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:09.120 Fort Sumter, but it could have started in Texas. There's 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:13.280 no reason for it not to have, you know. And 0:14:13.400 --> 0:14:16.480 so while Lee is in conflict with the secession is 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:18.560 at this point, he's also it's also very clear from 0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:21.000 his letters that he was open, even at this early 0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:23.920 stage to the idea of fighting against the United States 0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:27.280 and breaking his oath. He expressed his wife a desire 0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:30.320 to fight under no other flag than the Star spangled banner. 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:33.000 But he also said I would fight in defense of 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:36.560 Virginia and and what else could that mean but successionally? 0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:37.560 Right, Yeah, And. 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:40.280 It's this The fact that he always phrases it that 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:44.360 way is evidence of a kind of wishy washiness that 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:48.040 is belied by his claims to be anti secession because 0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:53.200 while secessionists are preaching nothing but revolution, and he says, like, 0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:56.280 I think that's irresponsible, but he also consistently says I 0:14:56.320 --> 0:14:59.560 would fight in defense of Virginia. He just doesn't have 0:14:59.600 --> 0:15:02.160 the courage to admit I am, in fact, willing to. 0:15:02.080 --> 0:15:05.200 Say say you came in Oh yeah, yeah, just say it, 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:08.160 bro like it is what it is. And maybe it's like, yeah, 0:15:08.360 --> 0:15:12.440 like the not to give him any grace, but yeah, 0:15:12.480 --> 0:15:15.160 just the piece of him that's like still kind of 0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:19.240 think this is stupid, but I'm definitely down, so like 0:15:19.880 --> 0:15:21.720 this is the way I can make my brain get 0:15:21.760 --> 0:15:22.200 around it. 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:25.320 I kind of have more respect for that, like random 0:15:25.360 --> 0:15:27.640 those like assholes in the Texas paper who are like, 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:30.160 this is a wall for white equality and we'll fight it, 0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:32.800 because at least they're like, yeah, you're being honest about 0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:34.600 what you're willing to do. You know, this is what 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:38.080 we're doing. Lee is just kind of pussy footing around it. Yeah, 0:15:38.320 --> 0:15:41.000 and this continues. This is like a Lee family tradition 0:15:41.080 --> 0:15:43.840 because fitz Hugh Lee's book, which I've quoted from several times, 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:46.680 written in I think eighteen ninety six, makes it clear 0:15:46.680 --> 0:15:49.520 that Lee's decision to join the Confederacy wasn't just something 0:15:49.520 --> 0:15:51.720 he did because he felt there were no other options. 0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:55.200 It was based on his fundamental sympathy for the Southern cause, 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:59.160 which is the cause of slavery. Lee wrote, quote the South, 0:15:59.160 --> 0:16:01.320 in my opinion, it's been aggrieved by the acts of 0:16:01.360 --> 0:16:03.920 the North. As you say, I feel the aggression, and 0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:06.360 I am willing to take every proper step for address. 0:16:06.600 --> 0:16:09.200 It is the principle I contend for not individual or 0:16:09.240 --> 0:16:12.160 private benefit. As an American citizen, I take great pride 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:15.000 in my country, her prosperity, and her institutions, and would 0:16:15.040 --> 0:16:19.480 defend any state if her rights were invaded. And it's like, yeah, no, 0:16:19.520 --> 0:16:20.359 you wouldn't. 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:21.400 Enough because you could. 0:16:22.040 --> 0:16:24.360 You would not defend a state in which slavery was 0:16:24.400 --> 0:16:27.360 illegal or if the Fugitive Slave Acts were forced off right, 0:16:27.360 --> 0:16:30.120 which they were. You are not willing to actually defend 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:32.760 any state. You're willing to defend states who want to 0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:35.280 have slaves. That's what you're willing to defend. 0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:38.120 The thought hasn't crossed my mind till literally right now 0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:40.960 that he could have fought for the Union. 0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:43.840 Yeah, that was an option, and in fact, Lee is 0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:46.480 a full bird colonel. By the time the war starts. 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:50.320 There were nine full bird colonels from Virginia at the 0:16:50.360 --> 0:16:52.840 start of the Civil War. Eight of them sided with 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:53.360 the Union. 0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:58.000 Wow I could Yeah, yeah that like that just not 0:16:58.200 --> 0:17:01.600 the wind at all, Like alle o, nah fam you 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:05.600 ai Yeah yeah, okay. I was like, so you're telling 0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:08.399 me all the homies, all of them you wouldn't like. 0:17:08.480 --> 0:17:10.760 So you you going against the grain, So you standing 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:15.080 all your all going against the grain, and you. 0:17:15.080 --> 0:17:17.280 Try to tell me you was conflicted about this. It 0:17:17.320 --> 0:17:19.800 is as we'll get into. It's always portrayed. It's like, well, 0:17:19.800 --> 0:17:21.520 he just felt like he had no option, you know, 0:17:21.560 --> 0:17:23.840 once Virginia was involved, that's where his heart was, That's 0:17:23.840 --> 0:17:25.520 where he had to go. That's not true. 0:17:25.920 --> 0:17:28.399 Well, first of all, he lived at Texas one, so 0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:31.320 we'll get to that. Yeah. Yeah. 0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:34.800 Eleven states voted to secede from the Union. They did 0:17:34.800 --> 0:17:37.600 so under declarations that the heart of the issue they 0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:41.320 were succeeding over was slavery. Right. South Carolina cited in 0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:43.359 their secession and they're the first state to do its 0:17:43.400 --> 0:17:47.199 sites in their secession declaration and increasing hostility on the 0:17:47.200 --> 0:17:50.200 part of non slave holding states to the institution of slavery. 0:17:50.640 --> 0:17:53.879 In Mississippi's declaration of secession, they stated, quote, there was 0:17:53.960 --> 0:17:56.480 no choice less to us, but submission to the mandates 0:17:56.480 --> 0:17:59.399 of abolition or a dissolution of the Union, which is 0:17:59.400 --> 0:18:01.720 both untrue and what the whole crisis is about, because 0:18:01.760 --> 0:18:05.000 like Lincoln, by the way, had absolutely no intention of 0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:08.480 ending slavery. There was a desire to stop the expansion 0:18:08.480 --> 0:18:10.840 of it to new states, right, like he was not 0:18:10.960 --> 0:18:14.199 going like it's very clear. Yeah, yeah, he was not 0:18:14.320 --> 0:18:17.840 willing to do that, you know, he was not that based. Now, 0:18:17.880 --> 0:18:20.520 it is worth noting that Lee's sympathy for the Southern 0:18:20.560 --> 0:18:23.600 cause still did not entirely at this point rule out 0:18:23.640 --> 0:18:25.560 the chance that he might fight for the Union, and 0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:28.440 in fact, if the war had started in Texas rather 0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:30.920 than at Fort Sumter, I think he probably would have 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:34.040 sided with the Union purely because Lee is this kind 0:18:34.119 --> 0:18:38.639 of guy. Again, he is willing to eventually resign his 0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:41.199 commission and take up one in Virginia to fight for 0:18:41.240 --> 0:18:45.080 the Confederacy. But if secessionists had marched on the fort 0:18:45.119 --> 0:18:47.760 where he was stationed in Texas to try to take 0:18:47.800 --> 0:18:51.520 their shit, he probably would have fought them purely because 0:18:51.560 --> 0:18:52.920 that was personal. 0:18:53.000 --> 0:18:56.520 Yeah, and it was his job, man, Like, Yeah, how 0:18:56.600 --> 0:18:57.520 DAREI fuck y'all doing? 0:18:57.560 --> 0:18:59.200 How dare y'all run up on me? You know? Well, 0:18:59.240 --> 0:19:02.200 you know what? Because you running up on me? Yeah? Yeah. 0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:05.280 That is kind of an interesting counterfactual. If he would 0:19:05.320 --> 0:19:08.320 have like wound up against his will fighting against who 0:19:08.320 --> 0:19:10.480 would have been the new maybe Jackson or somebody. It 0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:13.880 would have been the new Lee of the Confederacy, Yeah, Stonewall. 0:19:14.280 --> 0:19:15.920 And it's interesting, Like, again, I don't give him like 0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:17.800 much moral credit for that, but I think it is 0:19:17.840 --> 0:19:21.520 a possibility for a while. However, fairly quickly it becomes 0:19:21.560 --> 0:19:25.000 not possible, because, like, not long after he writes, you know, 0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:27.920 some of these letters back to his wife, he's relieved 0:19:27.920 --> 0:19:30.560 of duty at Fort Mason in San Antonio and sent 0:19:30.600 --> 0:19:33.119 to Washington to report to the head of the US Army. 0:19:33.600 --> 0:19:36.520 His journey north was awkward, to say the least. The 0:19:36.560 --> 0:19:39.520 Texas Rangers were out in force and federal officials who 0:19:39.560 --> 0:19:42.240 were leaving Texas because this is he's part of kind 0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:44.280 of a flight where the government's like, well, we should 0:19:44.280 --> 0:19:46.119 probably get our people out of here, like this is, 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:49.080 this is there's a good chance this is gonna go back. 0:19:49.840 --> 0:19:51.760