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Speaker 1: Media, what's losing my Civil War?

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Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know how to I've got I've got one

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Speaker 1: for part four. I promise you got one for part four,

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Speaker 1: but I didn't have one for part three. Uh, this

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Speaker 1: is all behind the Bastards a podcast about Robert E.

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Speaker 1: Lee for the last week or so.

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Speaker 2: Mister silver medal head ass, mister.

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Speaker 1: Let's get I'll give me a bronze, right your bronze dude.

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Speaker 3: My one of my favorite moments in history was the

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Speaker 3: first time I got to go to Crow Nation, Montana,

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Speaker 3: the like little big horn sitting bull monument, and that

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Speaker 3: this whole thing for General Custard, like this whole statue

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Speaker 3: for it, and I'm looking at him and I'm like,

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Speaker 3: this is a second place trophy that man lost, Like.

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Speaker 2: Participation, you get statues for losing like anyway.

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Speaker 1: I also, on a separate note, I think it's funny

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Speaker 1: that we ever give out bronze medals because like gold,

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Speaker 1: obviously precious, never tarnishes, silver a lot harder to tarnish,

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Speaker 1: also pretty precious, and then bronze, Like, come on, guys,

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Speaker 1: we stopped using that ship for swords, like two thousand

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Speaker 1: years ago. That's a team.

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Speaker 2: It's named in age like it means a time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the bronze age which medal, Yeah, we'll give We'll

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Speaker 3: give Robert E.

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Speaker 1: Lee a bronze medals, bronze Welcome, Welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 1: Everybody say again, Jason Petty aka PROP. In our first

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Speaker 1: two episodes, we established the background and life of Robert E.

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Speaker 3: Lee.

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Speaker 1: In part two we talked about some pretty fucking unpleasant stuff.

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Speaker 1: And today we're we're answering the question. We're getting into

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Speaker 1: kind of the critical moment of Bobby Lee's life, right,

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Speaker 1: which is his decision to become a trader, to go

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Speaker 1: back on his oath to the United States and his

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Speaker 1: oath of loyalty in service to the military, uh, and

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Speaker 1: become a fucking trader. So that's that's what I do.

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Speaker 2: Think he's a Bobby. I think he's a Robbie. You

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Speaker 2: think he's a Robbie instead, And Robbin said, because I

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Speaker 2: like to call you Bobby.

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Speaker 1: And I don't want to, but I hate being called that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but that's what's fun about it, and I don't

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Speaker 3: want the association. So I think he's a Robbie because

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Speaker 3: he's also he robs, he sucks, he does, he does suck,

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Speaker 3: And it couldn't be it couldn't be a better time

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Speaker 3: to talk about this, especially with what's going on in

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Speaker 3: the Supreme Court about like, yes, what is what is reason?

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Speaker 3: What is treason? What's a trader? Yeah, this law only

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Speaker 3: applies to everyone except for the highest office.

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry, what.

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Speaker 1: Well with Robert It's at least stay a clearer case

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Speaker 1: of treatretty because there's really there's really no other way

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Speaker 1: to look at this.

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Speaker 3: But I don't nobody this article three is about you, bam. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: the law exists because of y'all.

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Speaker 1: It's not a hard question like as to whether or

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Speaker 1: not this guy is guilty. And it's one of those

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Speaker 1: things where within kind of the Lost Cause mythology and

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Speaker 1: within all of like the coverage of Lee's life that's

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Speaker 1: sort of influenced by Lost Cause shit, this always still

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Speaker 1: gets softened. It's weird we have this like hatred in

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Speaker 1: the United States of actually calling traders traders if they're

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Speaker 1: like white conservatives. Yeah, and that does actually extend to

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Speaker 1: Bobby Lee. Like I just said, it was very clear,

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Speaker 1: but people still do this shit, and it kind of

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Speaker 1: make that case, I'm going to start again by reading

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Speaker 1: from our huge head on the cover children's book Who

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Speaker 1: was Robert E.

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Speaker 2: Lee?

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Speaker 1: Which I'm giving these books some shit. They're actually not

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Speaker 1: that bad. There's actually a decent amount of really good

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Speaker 1: historic information, and they come across as like pretty negative

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Speaker 1: towards the Confederacy. Why I keep bringing them up is

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Speaker 1: because they still include these bits like this one where

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Speaker 1: where they're taught they're introducing the concept of like the

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Speaker 1: Civil War that we had killed about a million people

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Speaker 1: and Robert's participation in it, and this is how they

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Speaker 1: describe it. Robert grew up with a great love for

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Speaker 1: his country, yet in eighteen sixty one, the country he's

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Speaker 1: so admired was torn apart by the start of the

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Speaker 1: Civil War. Robert was torn too. He wanted the country

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Speaker 1: to remain united. He did not want the South to

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Speaker 1: break away from the United States and form a separate country.

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Speaker 1: But that is what happened. And what they're doing there,

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Speaker 1: they're using that like special exonerative case of like English

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Speaker 1: grammar that you normally use for police or the IDF

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Speaker 1: where it's like the country was torn apart.

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Speaker 2: Listen, who who torn it apart? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Who made that decision. Why wasn't torn apart?

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Speaker 2: You know, it's like that's.

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Speaker 1: Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, a kid in Chicago walked into

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Speaker 1: a police officer's bullet, Like how did that happen?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly that, And.

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Speaker 3: I'm like, dude, just hearing them say it, it's like

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Speaker 3: I made the mistake because, again, the child of a

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Speaker 3: rather militant man that I thought, your children need to

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Speaker 3: know as quick as possible when they ready to know

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Speaker 3: the world they about to step into.

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Speaker 2: So I had.

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Speaker 3: No problem, I feel terrible about it now showing my

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Speaker 3: third grade daughter images of the Middle Passage and what

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Speaker 3: the what slave ships and how it looked and how

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Speaker 3: we was laid out. I had no problem showing her this.

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Speaker 3: My wife was like, Jason, she's eight years old. Maybe

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Speaker 3: there's a more sanitized way to reveal this truth to her.

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Speaker 3: And I was like, it's not sanitized. You can't clean

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Speaker 3: up even right. So I was like, no, you gotta

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Speaker 3: tell them, you know. Now, second time around, having another child,

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Speaker 3: I was like, yeah, this's probably a probably an age

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Speaker 3: appropriate way to like lay out this, you know. So

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Speaker 3: I'm saying that to say in on one hand, the

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Speaker 3: Big Head Books is like this is four children. There's

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Speaker 3: got to be a more age There's got to be

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Speaker 3: an age appropriate way to say what's going on. I'm

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Speaker 3: my argument is, I don't know if that's what they're

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Speaker 3: doing though, Like that's more lost cause z and sanitized

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Speaker 3: way to do it, you know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it really is. And I'm frustrated by this,

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Speaker 1: but it also it's so consistent among the way people

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Speaker 1: talk about Lee and I go, you know, there is

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Speaker 1: one thing I do kind of I think is appropriate

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Speaker 1: about this, although I don't think it means to be,

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Speaker 1: which is one of the ways you do have to

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Speaker 1: look at from the perspective of people like Lee and

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Speaker 1: Lee is he's going to be an active player obviously

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Speaker 1: in the treason of the South, but he's not up

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Speaker 1: until the point that secession crisis starts, right He's not

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Speaker 1: a guy who's in politics. He's not a guy who's

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Speaker 1: advocating for secession prior to that. And for people like him,

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Speaker 1: which is most of the country, I think there is

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Speaker 1: actually a little bit in the way in which all

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Speaker 1: of this comes on like a storm, like a weather pattern,

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Speaker 1: and I think that those of us sitting in the

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Speaker 1: country right now watching shit escalate to who knows what

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Speaker 1: the fuck's gonna happen later this year with the election,

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Speaker 1: you can to some and empathize with, like, yeah, these

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Speaker 1: massive civil conflicts that up to a certain point, it's

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Speaker 1: a small chunk of the country that's actively ratcheting things

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Speaker 1: towards calamity and for the rest of us trying to

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Speaker 1: just trying to make rent, trying to like live your life.

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Speaker 1: It does feel like a fucking storm hitting right. I

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Speaker 1: don't say that to take any agency away from him,

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Speaker 1: but I did. I found myself kind of torn between

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Speaker 1: those two things right where I was just like, true,

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Speaker 1: I do kind of feel like that sometimes, like it's

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Speaker 1: a weather pattern that just moved in and you have

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Speaker 1: to just kind of brace for it.

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Speaker 2: Braw feel you.

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Speaker 3: Man. There's even when we get into the Lost Cause episodes,

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Speaker 3: the man, I keep going back to this. But the

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Speaker 3: more that I say it, as much as I am

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Speaker 3: a victim of that shit, it is it's so human,

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Speaker 3: like the way that it's snowballed into being what it

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Speaker 3: it's become, it's a human And then if you're not

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Speaker 3: one of the creators of it, it's just you're just

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Speaker 3: you just happen to live in Tuscaloosa.

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Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying.

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Speaker 3: You're just like, I mean, yeah, this is the air

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Speaker 3: we breathe, you know, it's so human.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yes, And that's kind of the only bits from Lee

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Speaker 1: that are a little bit understandable, where he's writing back

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Speaker 1: to his family as like stuff is escalating towards open

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Speaker 1: violence and is like I can't believe this is happening,

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Speaker 1: Like why is no one stopping this? Where it's like

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Speaker 1: he's on the wrong side of it, But that basic

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Speaker 1: emotion of like how the fuck is this happening? I

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Speaker 1: do actually understand to a degree of thanks. Yeah, It's

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Speaker 1: just it's one of those things I'm reading right now,

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Speaker 1: the book Nixon Land Again, which which covers like this

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Speaker 1: massive period, this very undercover period in US history where

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Speaker 1: all there was this unbelievable wave of violence towards the

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Speaker 1: anti war movement, people assassinated and murdered for handing out

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Speaker 1: pamphlets against the Vietnam War in the streets. That happen

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Speaker 1: over and over again. And there's almost a degree which

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Speaker 1: it's comforting, not because that's good, because it's terrible that

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Speaker 1: that happened, but because when I hear about the wave

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Speaker 1: of violence that's hitting us now, particularly over like the

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Speaker 1: anti war and Gaza movement, just to know that like,

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Speaker 1: all right, well this isn't a historic novelty, Yeah, this

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Speaker 1: is not This is something that happens again and again,

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Speaker 1: you know, And I guess just knowing people made it

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Speaker 1: like went through that before. It's not good, but it

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Speaker 1: is like, okay, we're not letting an unprecedented times exactly anyway.

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Speaker 1: So in other words, while Lee is going to exercise

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Speaker 1: a huge amount of agency from kind of the start

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Speaker 1: of hostilities on afterwards, he is kind of carried along

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Speaker 1: by the tide of history in the couple of years

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Speaker 1: prior to things. And he's going to spend the lead

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Speaker 1: up to the eighteen sixty election actually in San Antonio,

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Speaker 1: watching the Democratic Party shatter in the face of Lincoln's

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Speaker 1: campaign and this debate over what to do about slavery.

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Speaker 1: And it's this very interesting moment where he is like

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Speaker 1: put into conflict with secessionists.

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Speaker 2: We don't live.

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Speaker 1: This isn't really a period of Lee that I thought about,

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Speaker 1: but like, he is a federal officer in a state

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Speaker 1: that is actively preparing to secede, and he becomes the

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Speaker 1: target of secessionist anger, right, because he's this representative of

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Speaker 1: the federal government that he's going to wind up fighting against.

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Speaker 1: But that hasn't happened yet, and so it puts him

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Speaker 1: in this very conflicted position. The New York Times, kind

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Speaker 1: of echoing Lee's own thoughts in this period, writes that

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Speaker 1: extremists in the Democratic Party were delighted at the idea

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Speaker 1: of a Lincoln victory quote which will give them an

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Speaker 1: opportunity to rally the South in favor of dissillusion. In

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Speaker 1: other words, secessionists are being written about and discussed by

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Speaker 1: the centrists of the day as much as accelerationists are today,

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Speaker 1: right where there's this like attitude that will A lot

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Speaker 1: of secessionists want Lincoln to win because they think it's

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Speaker 1: going to inevitably provoke him this conflict that we have

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Speaker 1: to have, right, And Lee is diehard against Lincoln, obviously,

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Speaker 1: but he's and he's against Lincoln in part because he

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Speaker 1: wants He thinks that like he agrees with the accelerationists, Basically,

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Speaker 1: he doesn't want Lincoln to win, like the acceleration it's stupid.

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Speaker 1: He agrees that if Lincoln wins, the conflict is inevitable right.

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Speaker 3: There's this thing like I'm thinking about I get this

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Speaker 3: sometimes I get this like anti feeling, like it's it's

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Speaker 3: very unique to my career. But like when you're backstage

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Speaker 3: at like a big event or a festival concert and

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Speaker 3: you see all the wires like all over there, like

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Speaker 3: I'm like, I'm antsy that I'm like, let's just get

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Speaker 3: it over with, and someone pull a chord, like just

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Speaker 3: rip it up, just get it over with, like just.

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Speaker 2: Somebody do it.

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Speaker 3: Somebody destroy it, like or like if you know, for

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Speaker 3: like some more violent stuff, when you're just like let's

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Speaker 3: just fight, let's just do it, Like waiting for it's worse.

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Speaker 3: It's like, let's just let's just fight. When you've been

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Speaker 3: in a lot of violent situations. Yeah, you understand this intimately,

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Speaker 3: which is that bracing for impact is worse than impact.

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Speaker 3: It's worse, yes, yes, it's more so worse. It's not

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Speaker 3: necessarily worse because you can die from impact. Yeah, but

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Speaker 3: it's more thinking about it. Yeah, your fear. You're just like,

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Speaker 3: it's just let's just do it. Let's get it over with.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: It's the same reason most Americans are more scared of

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Speaker 1: being on a plane than they are driving, even though

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Speaker 1: you're a thousand times in more danger while driving, but

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Speaker 1: you're in control of the car at least theoretically right now, realistically,

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Speaker 1: are you in control of some drunk eye smashing and

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Speaker 1: fucking miata. No, of course not, but in your head

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Speaker 1: at least your behind the wheel as opposed to sitting

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Speaker 1: in a jet where you're much safer, but you have

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Speaker 1: no agency on what's going to happen, right, And that

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Speaker 1: is that is like most of the country, including Roberty

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Speaker 1: Lee at this point, and for him it's it is

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Speaker 1: particularly I'm not trying to say like empathize with him,

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Speaker 1: but you need to understand where his head is. Right

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Speaker 1: after Lincoln wins, South Carolina authorizes a secession convention and

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Speaker 1: this really sparks secession fever across the South, where Lee

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Speaker 1: is a federal representative and he writes home to his family,

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Speaker 1: the lone Star is floating all over this state as

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Speaker 1: Texan independence becomes that people are like putting up lone

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Speaker 1: star flags around the fort that he's at rights and

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Speaker 1: that's a threat, right, you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's pretty poetic to say it like that.

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Speaker 3: The lone Star is floating all over the state, and

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Speaker 3: I'm like, yeah, I hate I hate that. That's kind

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Speaker 3: of poetic jerk.

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Speaker 1: He's not a terrible writer. Most people were better writers

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Speaker 1: back then because you kind of had to be you

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Speaker 1: could write. Yeah, the discourse around all this was as

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Speaker 1: detached from reality as it is today, with one text

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Speaker 1: and paper shrieking the North has gone overwhelmingly for Negro

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Speaker 1: equality and Southern vassalage. Southern men, will you submit to

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Speaker 1: this degradation?

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Speaker 3: So it is about oh whoa, oh so it is

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Speaker 3: about the negro Oh yeah, you just say there was

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Speaker 3: no debate about that at the time. Yeah, exactly. So

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Speaker 3: it's about so it's about the okay, got it? Yeah,

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Speaker 3: it really is some like white lives matter shit right,

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Speaker 3: very much so.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And so by December, Texas hasn't started its own secession

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Speaker 1: convention and Lee when this happens. He writes home to

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Speaker 1: his wife and he's basically like, yeah, if they succeed,

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Speaker 1: I will head home, you know, I will, I will

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Speaker 1: like return, I promise, And he's it's because she's worried

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Speaker 1: he's going to get killed by some Texas you know.

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Speaker 1: That's and that's not an unrealistic threat. It started in

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Speaker 1: Fort Sumter, but it could have started in Texas. There's

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Speaker 1: no reason for it not to have, you know. And

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Speaker 1: so while Lee is in conflict with the secession is

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Speaker 1: at this point, he's also it's also very clear from

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Speaker 1: his letters that he was open, even at this early

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Speaker 1: stage to the idea of fighting against the United States

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Speaker 1: and breaking his oath. He expressed his wife a desire

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Speaker 1: to fight under no other flag than the Star spangled banner.

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Speaker 1: But he also said I would fight in defense of

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Speaker 1: Virginia and and what else could that mean but successionally?

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, And.

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Speaker 1: It's this The fact that he always phrases it that

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Speaker 1: way is evidence of a kind of wishy washiness that

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Speaker 1: is belied by his claims to be anti secession because

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Speaker 1: while secessionists are preaching nothing but revolution, and he says, like,

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Speaker 1: I think that's irresponsible, but he also consistently says I

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Speaker 1: would fight in defense of Virginia. He just doesn't have

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Speaker 1: the courage to admit I am, in fact, willing to.

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Speaker 3: Say say you came in Oh yeah, yeah, just say it,

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Speaker 3: bro like it is what it is. And maybe it's like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: like the not to give him any grace, but yeah,

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Speaker 3: just the piece of him that's like still kind of

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Speaker 3: think this is stupid, but I'm definitely down, so like

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Speaker 3: this is the way I can make my brain get

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Speaker 3: around it.

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Speaker 1: I kind of have more respect for that, like random

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Speaker 1: those like assholes in the Texas paper who are like,

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Speaker 1: this is a wall for white equality and we'll fight it,

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Speaker 1: because at least they're like, yeah, you're being honest about

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Speaker 1: what you're willing to do. You know, this is what

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Speaker 1: we're doing. Lee is just kind of pussy footing around it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and this continues. This is like a Lee family tradition

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Speaker 1: because fitz Hugh Lee's book, which I've quoted from several times,

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Speaker 1: written in I think eighteen ninety six, makes it clear

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Speaker 1: that Lee's decision to join the Confederacy wasn't just something

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Speaker 1: he did because he felt there were no other options.

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Speaker 1: It was based on his fundamental sympathy for the Southern cause,

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Speaker 1: which is the cause of slavery. Lee wrote, quote the South,

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Speaker 1: in my opinion, it's been aggrieved by the acts of

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Speaker 1: the North. As you say, I feel the aggression, and

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Speaker 1: I am willing to take every proper step for address.

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Speaker 1: It is the principle I contend for not individual or

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Speaker 1: private benefit. As an American citizen, I take great pride

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Speaker 1: in my country, her prosperity, and her institutions, and would

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Speaker 1: defend any state if her rights were invaded. And it's like, yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: you wouldn't.

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Speaker 2: Enough because you could.

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Speaker 1: You would not defend a state in which slavery was

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Speaker 1: illegal or if the Fugitive Slave Acts were forced off right,

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Speaker 1: which they were. You are not willing to actually defend

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Speaker 1: any state. You're willing to defend states who want to

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Speaker 1: have slaves. That's what you're willing to defend.

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Speaker 3: The thought hasn't crossed my mind till literally right now

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Speaker 3: that he could have fought for the Union.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that was an option, and in fact, Lee is

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Speaker 1: a full bird colonel. By the time the war starts.

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Speaker 1: There were nine full bird colonels from Virginia at the

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Speaker 1: start of the Civil War. Eight of them sided with

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Speaker 1: the Union.

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Speaker 3: Wow I could Yeah, yeah that like that just not

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Speaker 3: the wind at all, Like alle o, nah fam you

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Speaker 3: ai Yeah yeah, okay. I was like, so you're telling

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Speaker 3: me all the homies, all of them you wouldn't like.

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Speaker 3: So you you going against the grain, So you standing

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Speaker 3: all your all going against the grain, and you.

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Speaker 1: Try to tell me you was conflicted about this. It

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Speaker 1: is as we'll get into. It's always portrayed. It's like, well,

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Speaker 1: he just felt like he had no option, you know,

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Speaker 1: once Virginia was involved, that's where his heart was, That's

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Speaker 1: where he had to go. That's not true.

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Speaker 2: Well, first of all, he lived at Texas one, so

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Speaker 2: we'll get to that. Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Eleven states voted to secede from the Union. They did

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Speaker 1: so under declarations that the heart of the issue they

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Speaker 1: were succeeding over was slavery. Right. South Carolina cited in

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Speaker 1: their secession and they're the first state to do its

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Speaker 1: sites in their secession declaration and increasing hostility on the

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Speaker 1: part of non slave holding states to the institution of slavery.

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Speaker 1: In Mississippi's declaration of secession, they stated, quote, there was

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Speaker 1: no choice less to us, but submission to the mandates

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Speaker 1: of abolition or a dissolution of the Union, which is

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Speaker 1: both untrue and what the whole crisis is about, because

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Speaker 1: like Lincoln, by the way, had absolutely no intention of

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Speaker 1: ending slavery. There was a desire to stop the expansion

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Speaker 1: of it to new states, right, like he was not

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Speaker 1: going like it's very clear. Yeah, yeah, he was not

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Speaker 1: willing to do that, you know, he was not that based. Now,

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Speaker 1: it is worth noting that Lee's sympathy for the Southern

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Speaker 1: cause still did not entirely at this point rule out

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Speaker 1: the chance that he might fight for the Union, and

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Speaker 1: in fact, if the war had started in Texas rather

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Speaker 1: than at Fort Sumter, I think he probably would have

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Speaker 1: sided with the Union purely because Lee is this kind

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Speaker 1: of guy. Again, he is willing to eventually resign his

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Speaker 1: commission and take up one in Virginia to fight for

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Speaker 1: the Confederacy. But if secessionists had marched on the fort

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Speaker 1: where he was stationed in Texas to try to take

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Speaker 1: their shit, he probably would have fought them purely because

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Speaker 1: that was personal.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and it was his job, man, Like, Yeah, how

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Speaker 3: DAREI fuck y'all doing?

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Speaker 2: How dare y'all run up on me? You know? Well,

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Speaker 2: you know what? Because you running up on me? Yeah? Yeah.

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Speaker 1: That is kind of an interesting counterfactual. If he would

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Speaker 1: have like wound up against his will fighting against who

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Speaker 1: would have been the new maybe Jackson or somebody. It

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Speaker 1: would have been the new Lee of the Confederacy, Yeah, Stonewall.

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Speaker 1: And it's interesting, Like, again, I don't give him like

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Speaker 1: much moral credit for that, but I think it is

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Speaker 1: a possibility for a while. However, fairly quickly it becomes

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Speaker 1: not possible, because, like, not long after he writes, you know,

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Speaker 1: some of these letters back to his wife, he's relieved

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Speaker 1: of duty at Fort Mason in San Antonio and sent

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Speaker 1: to Washington to report to the head of the US Army.

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Speaker 1: His journey north was awkward, to say the least. The

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Speaker 1: Texas Rangers were out in force and federal officials who

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Speaker 1: were leaving Texas because this is he's part of kind

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Speaker 1: of a flight where the government's like, well, we should

399
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Speaker 1: probably get our people out of here, like this is,

400
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Speaker 1: this is there's a good chance this is gonna go back.

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Speaker 2: It's all bad, like feeling this.

402
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Speaker 1: Yeah, he's not quite escorted underguard the entire way, but

403
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Speaker 1: he and the others who are kind of like bouncing

404
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Speaker 1: are are watched pretty carefully, and he's concerned enough for

405
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Speaker 1: his safety that in short order when he starts his journey,

406
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Speaker 1: he changes into civilian clothes. One colleague at the time

407
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Speaker 1: claims that he quote declared that the position he held

408
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Speaker 1: was a neutral one and that he intended to go home,

409
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Speaker 1: resign from the army and plant corn. The website American

410
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Speaker 1: Heritage Rights quote. When he drove away from Texas, a

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Speaker 1: fellow officer called after him, Colonel, do you intend to

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Speaker 1: go south or remain north? Lee stuck his head out

413
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Speaker 1: of the covered wagon and replied, I shall never bear

414
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Speaker 1: arms against the United States, but it may be necessary

415
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Speaker 1: for me to carry a musket in defense of my

416
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Speaker 1: native state, Virginia, in which case I will not prove

417
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Speaker 1: recreant to my duty. In another moment of surprise confliction,

418
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Speaker 1: Lee confusedly declared, while I wish to do what is right,

419
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Speaker 1: I am unwilling to do what is not, either at

420
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Speaker 1: the bidding of the South or the North. So he

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Speaker 1: just he can't. He's just kind of a kind of gormless.

422
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Speaker 1: He can't make take us. He's always saying I will

423
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Speaker 1: fight for the Confederacy if it comes to that, But

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Speaker 1: he's also never willing to say, yeah, I'm willing to

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Speaker 1: turn trader right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it is such a weazly thing.

427
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Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's when snitches for his courage.

428
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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's when snitches and rats keep going. But I'm

429
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Speaker 2: not a rat.

430
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Speaker 3: I'm not a snitch, And I'm like, you're currently snitching

431
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Speaker 3: at this very moment, you are snitching to make tween.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, these January sixth insurrectionists who are like, h it

433
00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:19,400
Speaker 1: was Antifa. I got tricked. It was just we were

434
00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:21,520
Speaker 1: just sight seeing. And the ones who were like, yeah,

435
00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:23,479
Speaker 1: it was an insurrection and like, I'll go to prison.

436
00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:27,399
Speaker 1: I respect that, you know that's the plan. They're not

437
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,080
Speaker 1: good people, and I want I want them to stop.

438
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:32,040
Speaker 1: But like, of course that is at least someone who's

439
00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:33,480
Speaker 1: taking a stand and yeah, you.

440
00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:35,600
Speaker 3: Got honest about the stand there take Yeah, you got

441
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:38,160
Speaker 3: a code, man, I would say as as a side

442
00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:40,480
Speaker 3: note for everybody's life, kid, I think one of those

443
00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:42,520
Speaker 3: things is, yes, you should have a code. There should

444
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:45,440
Speaker 3: be there's you should all and I don't I can't

445
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:47,080
Speaker 3: tell you what that code is, but you should all

446
00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:49,119
Speaker 3: live by a code. To me, one of one of

447
00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:51,320
Speaker 3: my core values is I say what I mean.

448
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:51,919
Speaker 2: You know what I mean.

449
00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:54,080
Speaker 3: So that's like a code for me that like, and

450
00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:56,240
Speaker 3: you stand on business. If I said something and it

451
00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:58,920
Speaker 3: was wrong, look I said it, you know what I mean.

452
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:00,919
Speaker 3: Now it's time for me to be you feel me,

453
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:03,600
Speaker 3: And I'm gonna take creacts correction because I don't like

454
00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:07,399
Speaker 3: being wrong. But another thing I've learned, and going back

455
00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,360
Speaker 3: to something that Robert E. Lee did, which was like

456
00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:13,720
Speaker 3: realizing when it was time to bounce. I think that

457
00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:20,240
Speaker 3: that's also a skill every person should develop, is being

458
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:23,240
Speaker 3: able to know when it's it's probably time to slide.

459
00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,400
Speaker 3: We should probably leave right now. I say this in jest,

460
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,240
Speaker 3: but I'm dead serious. You should know when it's time

461
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:32,040
Speaker 3: to leave. Yeah, there's a good song about that and

462
00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:40,080
Speaker 3: about poker. You know you gotta gottaay.

463
00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:40,080
Speaker 2: Now to run. Hey, I think it's time for us

464
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:40,399
Speaker 2: to go.

465
00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:41,800
Speaker 3: I don't get if you was in the middle of

466
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:45,680
Speaker 3: giving your best game to that qube pot, like, look,

467
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:47,919
Speaker 3: it's time to go. Fam you halfway through the greatest

468
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:49,240
Speaker 3: cocktail you have add in your life.

469
00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:50,240
Speaker 2: Sent that drink down.

470
00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,479
Speaker 1: There's a bit in heat about that too, right, if

471
00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:55,919
Speaker 1: you're gonna be a fucking criminal, right, yes, you have

472
00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:57,840
Speaker 1: to have a line it which like no, I just bounce,

473
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:01,120
Speaker 1: I pick up my bag, and I'm it's time to just.

474
00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:02,960
Speaker 2: Leave everything, leave it all.

475
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:07,920
Speaker 1: Time to get Yeah, and Lee has now leaved it all.

476
00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,000
Speaker 1: I was trying to make that work, but it just

477
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:12,840
Speaker 1: it simply did not. But you know what does work

478
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:16,720
Speaker 1: prop the sponsors of this podcast. They're always working hard

479
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:26,400
Speaker 1: to give you incredible value. We're back. You know, I

480
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,440
Speaker 1: was thinking about what my line is, you know where

481
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,119
Speaker 1: am I? And And honestly, I only have one moral

482
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:34,240
Speaker 1: line in my entire life, and it's that I will

483
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,919
Speaker 1: not sell baldness cures, you know, powers, won't do it,

484
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 1: simply won't do it. Just be honest, you know.

485
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,160
Speaker 3: And the truth is, like, dude, you you you can

486
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:46,520
Speaker 3: look good bald like I can google so many men

487
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:51,439
Speaker 3: who trick Stewart. They're good looking men. Yes, come on,

488
00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:55,359
Speaker 3: just commit, just commit, bro, like you look better. You

489
00:23:55,400 --> 00:24:01,359
Speaker 3: can own it. Like listen, it's it's almost seventy confidence

490
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,640
Speaker 3: if you're just just rocket whatever you have rocket.

491
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:08,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's that's the message of this podcast.

492
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:09,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's all confidence.

493
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:13,480
Speaker 1: Lee comes back, returns to DC and he reports immediately

494
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:16,080
Speaker 1: to the commander of the US Army at this point,

495
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,159
Speaker 1: General Winfield Scott, who had been his commander during the

496
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,160
Speaker 1: Mexican American War. Scott is the guy who's like, Lee

497
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 1: is the best soldier I've ever seen. Right, and by

498
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,679
Speaker 1: the way, Lee is pretty famous at this point, and

499
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 1: there is huge buzz as it becomes clear that something

500
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 1: is going to happen that's probably going to require military

501
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 1: intervention as a result of the secession.

502
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:38,760
Speaker 2: Like James, like where you're going? Are you going to

503
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 2: take your talents to Miami?

504
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 1: Because Field Scott is too old. Everyone knows like and

505
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 1: Scott knows this too unlike today. Old people back then

506
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 1: were like Scott's like, yeah, I can't fight a war

507
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,199
Speaker 1: like not the other one, like an ancient oh no,

508
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:58,199
Speaker 1: guy what they used to be. And so there's a

509
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 1: lot of talk that like, well, wh who should command

510
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:03,720
Speaker 1: whatever we wind up needing to do, and like Lee

511
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,200
Speaker 1: is kind of the front runner because he's like, he's famous,

512
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,239
Speaker 1: he did really well in the Mexican American War. He's

513
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 1: a full bird colonel, so he's like right at the

514
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 1: point where he could be promoted to general. So there's

515
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:17,360
Speaker 1: a lot of talk in the papers that like, well,

516
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:19,919
Speaker 1: this guy could be kind of the savior of the union.

517
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,359
Speaker 1: You know, he really has talked about that way for

518
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:26,080
Speaker 1: a while. And so he gets invited to Winfield Scott's

519
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:28,960
Speaker 1: office in Scott and then there's a couple of different meetings.

520
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 1: But the gist of these meetings is that Lee has

521
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,119
Speaker 1: offered the command of a US Field Army. So that

522
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,360
Speaker 1: means a promotion to general. And this is what he's

523
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 1: been waiting his whole career. For years. He's been writing

524
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 1: his wife letters being like, I don't think I'll ever

525
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,919
Speaker 1: get promoted. This is so annoying. And he's offered the

526
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,359
Speaker 1: promotion of a lifetime and this is kind of seen

527
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 1: as a fast track to well, yeah, there's a pretty

528
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,359
Speaker 1: good chance this in not too much longer leads with

529
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 1: him just in command of the US Army. Right, he

530
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 1: could have had Grant's job. Maybe he wouldn't have been

531
00:25:57,760 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 1: good at it. I actually think he would have been

532
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:01,200
Speaker 1: bad at it. Yeah, that in part four.

533
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:02,440
Speaker 2: But he could have had it.

534
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:06,360
Speaker 1: For a while, right, damn. So, the most commonly depicted

535
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 1: view at the heart of the Lost Cause is that

536
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 1: he turns down this job because he simply couldn't bear

537
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 1: to go to war with his home and his relatives,

538
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,359
Speaker 1: and like that is not a good reason to support

539
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 1: the Confederacy. But I actually will say, I get how

540
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 1: a decent person could say I cannot participate in this

541
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 1: war because I simply can't shoot at my brother or cousins, right, Like,

542
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 1: that's that's understanding to see that and then be like

543
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 1: and also I find the cause of the South to

544
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 1: be untenable.

545
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:40,440
Speaker 3: Sure, and but like, man, really, like history really turns

546
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 3: on these like seemingly small decisions sometimes because like that's

547
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 3: a like you said, that's a very logical and understandable thing.

548
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,920
Speaker 3: And then but then if you're like you're like seventh

549
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 3: generation war general going all the way back to like

550
00:26:55,960 --> 00:27:00,159
Speaker 3: the freaking norms, like the founding of England, you know

551
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 3: what I'm saying, and now probably the biggest war in

552
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 3: the history of your country. They've giving you a chance

553
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,960
Speaker 3: to lead, and you're just gonna sit out. Yeah, it's

554
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:11,680
Speaker 3: like you can't. You can't sit out it, you know

555
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:13,440
Speaker 3: what I'm saying, because then you just broke tradition.

556
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he's he's not going to And I think

557
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 1: that the key point is that like this is portrayed

558
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 1: as Lee had to go with the South because he

559
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 1: couldn't fight against Virginia and he couldn't fight against his family,

560
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 1: and that is not true. There were men who were

561
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:28,679
Speaker 1: in that position, and there were some officers in the

562
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:30,719
Speaker 1: US Army prior to the war who didn't fight at

563
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 1: all because of.

564
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:33,159
Speaker 2: That, right, Yeah, they were like I can't do it.

565
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 1: And I don't have an issue with that actually, Like

566
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 1: I get it's like, this is just an impossible choice

567
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:38,680
Speaker 1: for me. I can't shoot my brother.

568
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 3: That's what I'm saying, Like it should have been if

569
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 3: he's like if that was the case, that's what should

570
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 3: have been. But I'm saying, yeah, the wrinkle in his

571
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 3: brain is like, well, I'm not going to be the

572
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,439
Speaker 3: first grandson. He'd not, you know what. I'm saying, like,

573
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:51,360
Speaker 3: I ain't going to break this tradition, you know.

574
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:53,119
Speaker 2: And he doesn't.

575
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,119
Speaker 1: And here I want to to give you kind of

576
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 1: how these sympathetic sources tend to portray this decision. I

577
00:27:57,800 --> 00:27:59,880
Speaker 1: want to quote from again who who was Robert El

578
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 1: describing his decision not to take this position commanding a

579
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 1: US field army that would mean fighting against the South.

580
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,680
Speaker 1: Robert was a conflicted man. Clearly he had a lot

581
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 1: to think about. He spent time with his family at Arlington,

582
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 1: he prayed, He stayed up late at night pacing the floors.

583
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 1: In the end, Robert reached an answer. He would resign

584
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 1: from the US Army that he had served for thirty years.

585
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 1: Although he said he would never bear arms against the Union,

586
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:24,679
Speaker 1: his heart was with Virginia. He had to defend his

587
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 1: homeland by bearing arms against the Union.

588
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 3: Right, it doesn't sound Yeah, that's that sentence. Don't even

589
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:30,919
Speaker 3: sound right?

590
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 1: Yeah.

591
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,160
Speaker 3: And also side note, I feel like at some point

592
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:35,959
Speaker 3: you should be able to like slap the shit out

593
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 3: of a cousin.

594
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what I'm saying.

595
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 3: Point this scenario is like, all right, I'm listen, let's

596
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 3: go to Granny's house and let's hash this out.

597
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying.

598
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:47,719
Speaker 3: Like, I'm gonna say all my uncles, all my cousins

599
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 3: down and be like, fellas, y'all, like, listen, you're tripping,

600
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 3: and if you can't cross this line, listen, I'm gonna

601
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 3: sign up with the Union cause, like I'm telling you

602
00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 3: right now, you're tripping, and righty.

603
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 1: Say, this is again kind of what I'm building towards.

604
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 1: He's going to make that decision one way or the other.

605
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:08,959
Speaker 1: The idea that he wasn't willing to fight his family

606
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 1: is untrue because he does choose to fight members of

607
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 1: his family. But the summary of events from that who

608
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 1: was Robert E. Lee book jives with one of the

609
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 1: on the ground accounts from somebody who was present at

610
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 1: some of these meetings with Lee and Scott and Lincoln. Right,

611
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 1: Montgomery Blair, who's Lincoln's postmaster general, the guy who has

612
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 1: been asked by Lincoln to like offer Lee command of

613
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 1: the army, and his son would later recall quote generally

614
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 1: said to my father, mister Blair, I look upon secession

615
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 1: as anarchy. If I own the four million of slaves

616
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 1: in the South, I would sacrifice them all to the Union.

617
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 1: But how can I draw my sword upon Virginia, my

618
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 1: native state. Now this is you know, from a secondhand source.

619
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 1: But Blair will make some statements that back up this

620
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 1: account of events and Lee's account of events. However, that's

621
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 1: not necessarily the truth, because we get a very different

622
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 1: description of both the nature of the offer made to

623
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 1: Lee and his response to it from Simon Cameron, who

624
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 1: was the Secretary of War under Lincoln and absolutely would

625
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 1: have been a part of the discussions with Lee. From

626
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:12,720
Speaker 1: the jump quote, General Lee called upon a gentleman who

627
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 1: had my entire confidence, and intimated that he would like

628
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 1: to have the command of the army. He assured that gentleman,

629
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 1: who was a man in the confidence of the administration

630
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 1: of his entire loyalty and his devotion to the interests

631
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,240
Speaker 1: of the administration and of the country. I consulted with

632
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 1: General Scott, and General Scott approved of placing him at

633
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 1: the head of the army. The place was offered to

634
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 1: him unofficially with my approbation and with the approbation of

635
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 1: General Scott. It was accepted by him verbally, with the

636
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:37,719
Speaker 1: promise that he would go into Virginia and settle his

637
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 1: business and then come back to take command. He never

638
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 1: gave us an opportunity to arrest him. He deserted under

639
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 1: false pretenses. I should have arrested him in a moment

640
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 1: if I had the chance at him, and I have

641
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 1: always regretted that I never did get that chance. I

642
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 1: think he behaved worse than any of the men who

643
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 1: have acted so treacherously to the government. And what so

644
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 1: Blair's account is that like, yeah, I offered him the

645
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 1: job and he said I just can't do it. I

646
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 1: can't fight against Virginia, which is like common narrative, it's

647
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 1: what you get for everything. What Cameron says is like no, no, no,

648
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 1: Lee said I want this job, give it to me.

649
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 1: We said the job is yours. He said, I'll take it.

650
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 1: And then he said, I just got to go back

651
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 1: home and settle some bitch and he bitched out and

652
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 1: turned trader, and he did this, he lied to them

653
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 1: to avoid getting arrested for treason. That's a really fucking

654
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 1: different story, right.

655
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, that's that is some whole ass shit.

656
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 2: Yeah.

657
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 1: One of these shows a man torn by this just

658
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 1: the impossible choice to fight against your family and your state.

659
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 1: The other shows a betrayer of his oath making a

660
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 1: calculated decision, you know. And I will say, we simply

661
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 1: don't know which of these stories comports more with reality, right,

662
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 1: we never will, you know, you get there's actually these

663
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 1: are not even the only two accounts of that meeting.

664
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 1: I think these are kind of the two. One of

665
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 1: these two is probably more right than the other. I

666
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 1: will say, I tend to believe what fucking Simon Cameron

667
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 1: says because it comports with how weasily Lee is about

668
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 1: his description of all this and.

669
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 3: The path of least resistance, Like you don't, like, no

670
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 3: one wants that type of confrontation to have to like,

671
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 3: you know, grow some ovaries and be like, yo, I'm

672
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 3: gonna stand on business. This is what I'm gonna do,

673
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 3: Thank you very much. I got a ride with Virginia,

674
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 3: you know what I'm saying, Or to be like, you know, dude,

675
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 3: you're right, I'm gonna do this. Let me at least

676
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 3: look my family in the face and tell them what's

677
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 3: going on, because both of them requires a certain type

678
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 3: of courage, again, a code.

679
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 2: It requires you to have a code.

680
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 3: To be able to be like, I'm just gonna do it,

681
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 3: and I'm gonna take whatever consequences come with it. No,

682
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 3: the path of least resistance is to lie. You know

683
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 3: what I'm saying, is to make y'all cool, get out

684
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 3: of this moment right now, and then which one of

685
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 3: y'all I feel like, are gonna hurt me the worse?

686
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 2: Right?

687
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 3: So, because if my family actually heard me say yes

688
00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 3: to them, right, they would have been like stop back no,

689
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 3: what he means yes? And you can't be like no, no,

690
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 3: I'm just lying to him, because then they're gonna look

691
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 3: at you and being like, why are you being a

692
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 3: coward about it?

693
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 2: Like, stand up? You know what I'm saying.

694
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 3: So he did the path of Lee's resistance, which to

695
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 3: me is the most normal thing.

696
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, And in terms of backing up Simon Cameron's account.

697
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 1: In his biography of Lee, Alan Guelzo notes that Lee

698
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 1: has to have known secession was coming and have already

699
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 1: made his choice to fight against the union, Otherwise his

700
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 1: actions here simply don't make any sense. Quote. If Lee

701
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 1: believed there would be no conflict, that some way would

702
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 1: have been found to save the country from the calamities

703
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 1: of war, then there would have been no risk in

704
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 1: his mind that he would have to conduct any kind

705
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 1: of hostile campaign, and certainly not against Virginia, and the

706
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,240
Speaker 1: golden prize of his professional life would fall neatly into

707
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:46,960
Speaker 1: his lap. So again, if he even from this point,

708
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 1: if he has not already made the decision to turn trader,

709
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 1: why would he turn down the proportion he'd already wanted, Right.

710
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, that actually makes so much sense, like you said,

711
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 3: because it's like, if you already know we're not going

712
00:33:57,920 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 3: to really go to war, then dude, take the job.

713
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying, It's take your dream. Yeah,

714
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 2: take it.

715
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 3: That's what you always wanted. And it's like, oh cool,

716
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 3: we figured it out. And then it's like, yeah, problem solved.

717
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 3: I didn't have to fight against my I didn't have

718
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 3: to fight against my family. I didn't have to pretend

719
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:13,440
Speaker 3: like I, you know, am loyal to anything.

720
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,279
Speaker 2: I just got the job and it's all good now.

721
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 1: The idea that Lee just loved Virginia so much she

722
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 1: had no choice. This is how it was depicted to

723
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 1: me as a kid in Texas public schools.

724
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:24,960
Speaker 2: Right, and it was fright.

725
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 1: The way this was framed to me is that like,

726
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:29,840
Speaker 1: this is how everybody felt. Right, nationalism was not what

727
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 1: it is now, and it would become people just weren't

728
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 1: that loyal first to the US, that were loyal to

729
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 1: their state. And that's how everybody felt. And so it

730
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 1: was inevitable that a guy like Lee would side with Virginia.

731
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 1: And this is not fucking true. This is simply not

732
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 1: accurate to the way people were at the time. Welso

733
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 1: Puts paid to this very inaccurate view in a succinct

734
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 1: passage from Roberty Leo Life. The LEAs, however prominent they

735
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 1: had been in Virginia life, were mostly nationalists, Federalists, and Whigs. Moreover,

736
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 1: Virgini Hi he had not, strictly speaking, been Lee's native

737
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:04,239
Speaker 1: state for most of his life his youth, from the

738
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 1: time the family moved to Alexandria, had been spent within

739
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:09,799
Speaker 1: what werein the boundaries of the District of Columbia, and

740
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 1: his professional responsibilities had scattered him for thirty years from

741
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 1: Texas to New York. Arlington was his home, but not

742
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 1: his property, and it's facing across the Potomac River towards

743
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 1: the capital was a constant reminder of where the Custuses

744
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:25,360
Speaker 1: always saw their loyalties residing. In other words, his family

745
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:29,840
Speaker 1: politics were nationalists, his personal politics were nationalists, and he

746
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 1: barely fucking spent any time in goddamn Virginia.

747
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 2: Now so funny.

748
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,800
Speaker 1: An account by Edward Townsend, who is the assistant adjutant

749
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 1: to Winfield Scott and a witness to Lee's visit with

750
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 1: the General, gives a quote by Lee that reinforces his

751
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 1: decision was made by the financial realities of his family

752
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:49,319
Speaker 1: more than some kind of loyalty. And this is Lee

753
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 1: talking to Scott General. The property belonging to my children,

754
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 1: all they possess lies in Virginia. They will be ruined

755
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,280
Speaker 1: if they do not go with their state. I cannot

756
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:02,359
Speaker 1: raise a hand against my children. Now. First off, as

757
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,360
Speaker 1: we'll cover that's still not true. But also if that

758
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 1: is an accurate quote that puts Lee's primary concern being

759
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,959
Speaker 1: the wealth of his kids and how it's threatened by.

760
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 2: War, which makes the most sense.

761
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, which makes the most sense, right, and is the

762
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:16,719
Speaker 1: least defensible.

763
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:18,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, especially if you was willing to keep them slaves

764
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 3: on air after your own father or your own father

765
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 3: in law was like, yo, you gotta let them go.

766
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 2: Yeah.

767
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 3: You know, he's like, nah, man, I'm look, We're gonna

768
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 3: make sure, we gonna make sure the legacy stays on yeaheah.

769
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 1: And it's again that said properties still can't explain all

770
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 1: of this because Arlington is not just a valuable piece

771
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 1: of land, it is strategically critical from Arlington. You can

772
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:47,759
Speaker 1: shell DC. That means the Union cannot allow Arlington to

773
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:51,319
Speaker 1: wind up in control of the Confederacy. And given just

774
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,240
Speaker 1: the way that things are laid out, it's also Arlington

775
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 1: happens to be an area the Union can very easily

776
00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:58,719
Speaker 1: get a lot of soldiers too faster. Lee is not

777
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 1: an idiot on military matters.

778
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 2: He knows the.

779
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 1: Confederacy simply is not going to be able to protect

780
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 1: Arlington at the early stage of the war, and Lee

781
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 1: is also aware of the North's superiority and manpower and

782
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 1: manufacturing capacity. When the war breaks out, his first thing

783
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:16,240
Speaker 1: he does is he orders his wife to flee the property.

784
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 1: So he can't just be concerned about what's going to

785
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:22,879
Speaker 1: happen to Arlington and be making his decisions based on that.

786
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 1: Otherwise he would have stayed with the Union, because that's

787
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:32,360
Speaker 1: you know, unless the property he's most concerned about is slaves, right, yes, yes.

788
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 2: You know now.

789
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:35,800
Speaker 1: Lee also tells one of his classmates from West Point,

790
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:38,239
Speaker 1: I would give it Arlington in a moment and all

791
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 1: I have on earth if the Union could be preserved

792
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:43,880
Speaker 1: in peace, which again means that either way, whichever of

793
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:46,399
Speaker 1: these is true, he's lying to somebody. Right, If he's

794
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 1: willing to give up Arlington to preserve the Union, fear

795
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:51,439
Speaker 1: that secessionists would take it can't be the driving force

796
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 1: behind his decision. And if he's willing to give up

797
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 1: Arlington to preserve the Union, then why doesn't he right Like,

798
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,880
Speaker 1: why does that influence his decision at all? As I

799
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:04,719
Speaker 1: noted earlier, the most understandable conflict that Lee expressed was

800
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 1: an unwillingness to fight against his family. But that's also

801
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:11,319
Speaker 1: not something he could have avoided. Because a lot of

802
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 1: his family stay loyal. Now, John Fitzgerald Lee remains in

803
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 1: service to the Union Army as a judge advocate general

804
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:22,479
Speaker 1: throughout the war. Samuel Phillips Lee, a Navy man, also

805
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 1: stays loyal, as does Robert E. Lee's cousin Robert Jones.

806
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:29,800
Speaker 1: His cousin John Upsher, stays loyal despite what he referred

807
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:33,720
Speaker 1: to as tremendous pressure from the Lee family, possibly also

808
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 1: including Robert. So again, when you're talking about like this

809
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 1: impossible decision not to fight your family, a bunch of

810
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 1: his families stay loyal, and they talk about how the

811
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:46,480
Speaker 1: traders in their family, Like, I have a lot of

812
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 1: respect for John Upsher. Your whole family is saying, no,

813
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 1: we are going to fight against the Union, we have

814
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 1: to defend Virginia sovereignty. And you say, no, I'm going

815
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 1: to stay loyal to my oath. That's a fucking honorable decision.

816
00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:01,319
Speaker 2: That's tough, dude. So he's the actual that's crazy in the.

817
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 3: Hero the hero of storys like, yeah, that is moral courage, right,

818
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 3: wow wow.

819
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:10,320
Speaker 1: And I haven't even gotten to the end of the

820
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 1: Lee's who stay loyal? Right? Durrence Williams, one of his

821
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:16,799
Speaker 1: wife's cousins is aide de camp to George McClellan, who's

822
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 1: gonna wind up running the whole fucking show for a while.

823
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,880
Speaker 3: It is that little imaginary story of like that I

824
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 3: made up, where it's like, Okay, I'm gonna go talk

825
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 3: to my family and be like, look, guys, I'm gonna

826
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 3: do this. They're all going, yeah, it's too a bunch

827
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:33,880
Speaker 3: of them. Yeah, they're like, yeah, we're staying at what

828
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 3: are you talking about? Of course we're staying at the Union.

829
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:37,799
Speaker 1: This is not just one or two. This is a

830
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 1: significant chunk of the Lee family stays loyal.

831
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:44,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're like, we surprised you. Eve mapp asked, like, yeah. Now.

832
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:47,880
Speaker 1: It is often noted that a lot of Lee's loyalty

833
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:49,919
Speaker 1: to his family, his unwillingness to fight them, is because

834
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:52,400
Speaker 1: he has all these cousins who support his family after

835
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,319
Speaker 1: his father dies, they support his mom. He's like, these

836
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 1: people they kept us, you know, afloat and fed and sheltered,

837
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:01,840
Speaker 1: you know, in the most diff part. I simply can't

838
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 1: fight them. I can't betray them. My loyalty is to them, right.

839
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 1: This is something that Lee expresses, and it is a

840
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 1: lie because one of the cousins who supports his family,

841
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:13,279
Speaker 1: who keeps it like the cousin who gives a huge

842
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 1: amount of money to his mother to keep her afloat,

843
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 1: is Philip Findall. Right, Philip Findall not only stays loyal,

844
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:22,840
Speaker 1: but both of his two sons fight in the Union

845
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 1: Army against Robert E.

846
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:24,319
Speaker 2: Lee.

847
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:29,399
Speaker 1: American Heritage continues quote with great reluctance, Smith Lee became

848
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:32,560
Speaker 1: a Confederate naval officer, where he served without enthusiasm and

849
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:35,959
Speaker 1: is late in September eighteen sixty three still pitched into

850
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 1: those responsible for getting us into this snarl, saying that

851
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 1: both the Lees and his in laws had pressured him

852
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 1: with ideas that Virginia came first. He grumbled, South Carolina

853
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 1: be hanged. How what did I want to stay in

854
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:49,520
Speaker 1: the old Navy? So there's even Lees that turned trader

855
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:52,120
Speaker 1: and are like, I can't believe I let you guys

856
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:54,360
Speaker 1: pressure me into this. This was the worst decision of

857
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:58,239
Speaker 1: my fucking life. Fuck all of you now. It is

858
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,759
Speaker 1: true that Robert Eli's three sons decided to fight for

859
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:05,880
Speaker 1: the Confederacy. However, none of them stated a position on

860
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 1: secession until after Robert E. Lee made his decision, and

861
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 1: based on what we know of them and just what

862
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:14,840
Speaker 1: we know about his family, I don't think any of

863
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:16,920
Speaker 1: them would have chosen to fight for the Confederacy. If

864
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,759
Speaker 1: Lee had stayed loyal, that simply wouldn't have happened. There's

865
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,760
Speaker 1: no way his sons do that right. They were waiting

866
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:25,319
Speaker 1: for their dad to make a call. I don't think

867
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 1: there's any validity in the claim that he had to

868
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:30,839
Speaker 1: fight for the Confederacy because he couldn't fight his own

869
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:34,319
Speaker 1: sons like he has a bunch of This is the

870
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 1: most fucked up part. It's not just a bunch of cousins.

871
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:42,440
Speaker 1: His sister, Ann Lee Marshall lives in Baltimore and strenuously

872
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:46,400
Speaker 1: supports the Union cause. Her husband, William Marshall, is a

873
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:50,480
Speaker 1: Republican delegate who nominates Lincoln to the presidency during that

874
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:54,360
Speaker 1: year's RNC Lee Robert E. Lee writes one of his

875
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 1: last letters before the war to his sister Anne, and

876
00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 1: he again, this is such a fucking cowardly passage. I'm

877
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,319
Speaker 1: going to read this last letter to his sister where

878
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:06,880
Speaker 1: he's basically saying, yeah, you know, this thing that you

879
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:09,800
Speaker 1: know is horrible and wrong. I'm going to do it. Quote,

880
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 1: I am grieved at my inability to see you, and

881
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:16,640
Speaker 1: abhor myself more than ever for not having visited you. Now,

882
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:19,759
Speaker 1: this had been well within his power to do. He

883
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:22,400
Speaker 1: was too busy playing foot set with Scott and Lincoln

884
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:25,440
Speaker 1: as the nation lange towards disaster. He admits to his

885
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:29,360
Speaker 1: sister there's no necessity for Virginia to secede, but then claims,

886
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:31,320
Speaker 1: I have not been able to make up my mind

887
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 1: to raise my hand against my relatives, my children, my home.

888
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 1: And again this is bullshit, and he's saying I couldn't

889
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:41,920
Speaker 1: raise my hand against my relatives to his sister, to

890
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:45,719
Speaker 1: my sisters, going to raise his hand against ye, He

891
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 1: concludes this scumfuck passage. I know you will blame me,

892
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 1: but you must think as kindly of me as you

893
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 1: can and believe that I have endeavored to do what

894
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:57,240
Speaker 1: I thought right, to show you the feeling and struggle

895
00:42:57,239 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 1: it has cost me. I send a copy of my

896
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 1: letters General Scott, which accompanied my letter of resignation. I

897
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:07,800
Speaker 1: have no time for more, and like, man, don't.

898
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:11,759
Speaker 3: Even like I don't send that letter, like just look man,

899
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:14,319
Speaker 3: like whatever you're trying to do to scrub your little

900
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 3: conscious clean like keep it, bro turns out his suckcess.

901
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 3: Sorry yeah yeah, and like yeah who, Like it's totally like, man,

902
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 3: you ever had somebody apologize to you and you're thinking, man,

903
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 3: who is this for? Like you're you're not doing this

904
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:33,319
Speaker 3: for me, you know what I'm saying this, You are

905
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 3: doing that for yourself. And all of us can hear it.

906
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 3: That's some bullshit. We can all hear as bullshit. I

907
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:41,799
Speaker 3: hope you have brain. Your brain has twisted into a

908
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 3: pretzel enough to make you feel like you justified in

909
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:46,080
Speaker 3: what you're doing because you show ain't do nothing to me.

910
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:47,919
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah.

911
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:51,400
Speaker 1: And for her credit, and by the way, pretty based,

912
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:55,440
Speaker 1: she never forgives her brother. She just was like onto

913
00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 1: this letter and she never talks to him again. She

914
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:01,840
Speaker 1: dies in eighteen sixty four without attempting to resume contact.

915
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:04,560
Speaker 1: Part of this is because her son Lewis, serves in

916
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:06,440
Speaker 1: the Union Army fighting against Robert E.

917
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:06,680
Speaker 2: Lee.

918
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 3: Yeah fucking nephew, you know, yeah, yeah, you finea murder

919
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:14,800
Speaker 3: your own nephew, my son. We're done. We're done.

920
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 2: Of course, we're done. We're done. And you had a choice.

921
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 3: Like that's the part that's like I'm like really newly

922
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:24,200
Speaker 3: getting angry about where I was like, you had a choice.

923
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it is. It is fucking vile. And I

924
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:33,440
Speaker 1: think in the end, again, it's not purely his property

925
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 1: that he's doing this for because he knows he's likely

926
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:38,480
Speaker 1: to lose Arlington. It's certainly not because he's unwilling to

927
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:42,560
Speaker 1: fight against his family, because he definitely does that now.

928
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 1: I think to an extent, the idea that he can't

929
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 1: bear fighting against Virginia is true, but not in the

930
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:52,040
Speaker 1: way the Lost Cause for biographies make it seem, because

931
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 1: despite never expressing particular loyalty to Virginia over the Union before,

932
00:44:56,520 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 1: once a conflict breaks out over slavery, he is willing

933
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 1: to stand in defense of that institution and of white supremacy,

934
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 1: even though it meant drawing arms against his own blood relatives.

935
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:09,839
Speaker 1: And this passage from American heritage makes it clear how

936
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 1: central the conflict over slavery is to his reasoning. He

937
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:16,480
Speaker 1: resented the North's badgering and feared Southern impotence at the

938
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:19,319
Speaker 1: hands of its majority population. He spoke out for the

939
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:23,439
Speaker 1: Crittenden Compromise, which would have guaranteed the permanent existence of slavery,

940
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:26,759
Speaker 1: declaring it deserved the support of every patriot, even though

941
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:29,279
Speaker 1: the nation had been designed around perpetual union. He told

942
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 1: daughter Agnes, if the bond could only be maintained by

943
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:35,400
Speaker 1: the sword and bayonet, its existence will lose all interest

944
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:39,120
Speaker 1: to me. And the fact that secession can only be

945
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 1: carried out by the sword in the bayonet does not

946
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 1: seem to have occurred to him. Likewise, he's not troubled

947
00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:46,920
Speaker 1: by the fact that slavery can only be kept in

948
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:50,399
Speaker 1: place by violence, which he knows because he's done that. Yeah,

949
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:55,200
Speaker 1: like it is so fucked up.

950
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:59,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, there is a piece of me, like if I'm

951
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 3: being so reflective that is having to continue to remind

952
00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:11,280
Speaker 3: myself that to keep zooming out and saying, we're still

953
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:15,479
Speaker 3: talking about my family here, Yeah, you know what I'm saying,

954
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:18,440
Speaker 3: Like we're still talking about the institution of slay. I'm

955
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:20,440
Speaker 3: getting into the story and stuff like that, and then

956
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:24,839
Speaker 3: I'm almost even more resentful to this guy that you're

957
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:27,920
Speaker 3: even making me forget that sometimes like that I'm forgetting,

958
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:31,600
Speaker 3: like like forgetting to couch this in the reality of

959
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:34,960
Speaker 3: we're still talking about chattel slavery here. Yeah, you know,

960
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 3: and it makes me even more pissed at him. On

961
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 3: April twentieth, a delegation of secessions showed up at his

962
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:42,879
Speaker 3: home to ask Lee to travel to Richmond, where they're

963
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:46,000
Speaker 3: having their big secessionist conference. Virginia is like late in

964
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:49,160
Speaker 3: deciding this and actually they have a one vote to

965
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 3: secede that fails, Like it actually was kind of possible

966
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 3: that like Virginia might not have have gone with the

967
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:58,920
Speaker 3: Confederacy almost or might have tried kind of a new

968
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:01,959
Speaker 3: that's not what happens, but like almost Prince George, yeah

969
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:04,960
Speaker 3: he was almost PGC. Yeah, you could have stayed that.

970
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 3: You could have had go go music. It could have

971
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:15,200
Speaker 3: been great, but no, you want it smothered. Friedsess. Sorry

972
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:15,680
Speaker 3: he is.

973
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 1: He has offered a commission commanding Virginia State Forces, and

974
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 1: again Virginia has not decided to join the Confederacy yet,

975
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 1: but it's now that Lee is going to have to

976
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 1: make his final call. His wife basically claims that he

977
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:30,120
Speaker 1: weeps tears of blood in this night of agony making

978
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:32,799
Speaker 1: the decision. Yet his family recall him on the day

979
00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:35,360
Speaker 1: that he announces his decision to them as being calm

980
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 1: and collected, not exhausted and distraught.

981
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:39,960
Speaker 3: They're trying to the tears of You're trying to harken

982
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:43,080
Speaker 3: back to Jesus, like you're trying to make him Jesus,

983
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:46,800
Speaker 3: you know, in the garden of Guessemity here like yeah, praying,

984
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:49,680
Speaker 3: you know, tears sweating, tears of blood, like come on, man.

985
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:50,280
Speaker 2: Yeah.

986
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:53,840
Speaker 1: Anyway, we get one note from like an enslaved member

987
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:57,120
Speaker 1: of the family, Jim Parks, who describes Lee as pacing

988
00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:00,759
Speaker 1: backward and forward on the porch, steadying himself. So, you know,

989
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:03,279
Speaker 1: I'm sure he spends some time agonizing over this. I

990
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:05,279
Speaker 1: don't think it's for moral reasons. I think it's like

991
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:07,640
Speaker 1: what's gonna wind up better for us?

992
00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:07,960
Speaker 2: You know?

993
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:11,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you get some stuff like that here. So

994
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:14,200
Speaker 1: Lee is never able to work up the courage to

995
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:16,840
Speaker 1: admit to his old boss and mentor, Winfield Scott, that

996
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 1: he has decided to turn trader. The last that reasons

997
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:21,840
Speaker 1: to Scott comes after Virginia votes to secede near the

998
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:23,880
Speaker 1: end of April, and all he says in it is

999
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:27,600
Speaker 1: He's like, thanks for twenty five years of kindness and consideration.

1000
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:32,480
Speaker 1: You were always had my back, you know, great times

1001
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:36,080
Speaker 1: working with you. Buddy, and then he concludes they have

1002
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:39,839
Speaker 1: a great summer. Yeah, he concludes it with the same

1003
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:42,360
Speaker 1: old lie, save in defense of my native state, I

1004
00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:45,360
Speaker 1: never again desire to draw my sword. And again it

1005
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:48,080
Speaker 1: was like, Okay, so you're saying you're willing to draw

1006
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:50,200
Speaker 1: your sword, You're going to fight as a trader. You

1007
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:52,360
Speaker 1: just can't even admit it to your old boss.

1008
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:55,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you're about to do it though. Yeah.

1009
00:48:56,239 --> 00:48:59,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is why I buy Simon Cameron's claim, because

1010
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:02,640
Speaker 1: he's so weasily about this every time. Yes, and it's

1011
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:05,800
Speaker 1: also again for the whole Oh, he couldn't have betrayed

1012
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 1: Virginia his boss Winfield Scott of Virginia.

1013
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:13,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's so initiatively betraying Virginia.

1014
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 1: Yes, so is George Thomas, Lee's colleague in the army

1015
00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:19,799
Speaker 1: back in Texas, like this guy who he's potentially about

1016
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:22,640
Speaker 1: to fight alongside when they're worried they might get attacked

1017
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:26,760
Speaker 1: by secessionists, and both Winfield Scott and George Thomas suffer

1018
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:30,400
Speaker 1: because of their decision to stay loyal. Scott is accused

1019
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:33,799
Speaker 1: of being a Free State pimp, and Lee does not

1020
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:36,480
Speaker 1: defend him, does not defend the honor of his boss

1021
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:38,920
Speaker 1: that he says has done so much to him, and

1022
00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:43,000
Speaker 1: George Thomas's relatives who turned trader asked him to change

1023
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:48,720
Speaker 1: his name. Like these men make real sacrifices for the Union.

1024
00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:53,680
Speaker 1: Fits you. Lee's biography, like most laws caused biographies likes

1025
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:57,120
Speaker 1: to depict what happens with like Lee, is basically guaranteed

1026
00:49:57,200 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 1: just because everyone does this right. Everyone signs their state

1027
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:04,920
Speaker 1: quote almost acknowledged that no selfish or unpatriotic motive influenced

1028
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:07,560
Speaker 1: him in refusing to draw his sword against his native state,

1029
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 1: to which from early boyhood he had been taught by

1030
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:11,920
Speaker 1: the wisest and the purest in the land. He owed

1031
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:14,880
Speaker 1: his first allegiance here. It is also just to remark

1032
00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:17,200
Speaker 1: that all who resigned their commissions in service of the

1033
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:19,640
Speaker 1: United States to cast their lot with their native states

1034
00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:23,920
Speaker 1: were influenced by the same pure and unselfish motives. You

1035
00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:27,400
Speaker 1: want to hear the truth, forty percent of Virginia officers

1036
00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:32,480
Speaker 1: stayed loyal forty forty And that doesn't mean sixty percent

1037
00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:34,560
Speaker 1: turn trader because a bunch of them just chose not

1038
00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:38,120
Speaker 1: to fight. Like Lee's old instructor Dennis Mann at West Point,

1039
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 1: We're just like I can't be a part of it. So,

1040
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:43,480
Speaker 1: like it is not true that this was just how

1041
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:46,600
Speaker 1: everyone moved. A huge number of people knew this was

1042
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:48,799
Speaker 1: wrong and did the right thing.

1043
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:49,360
Speaker 2: You know.

1044
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:53,239
Speaker 1: Ye Lee chose the coward's way out, and that is

1045
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:56,000
Speaker 1: a huge and critical part of his story.

1046
00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:57,759
Speaker 2: I love this.

1047
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:03,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like, yeah, there's nothing valuant about his choices,

1048
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:08,840
Speaker 3: nothing diabolical. It's coward yeah, yeah, fucking coward.

1049
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:09,399
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1050
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:11,880
Speaker 1: And you know what, credit to the memory of the

1051
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:14,759
Speaker 1: men who stayed loyal. That's a tough call. That's an

1052
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:16,000
Speaker 1: honorable fucking move.

1053
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:19,719
Speaker 3: Yes, you are definitely going against the current. And and

1054
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:23,840
Speaker 3: you know, like part of me is like okay, bare minimum,

1055
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:27,200
Speaker 3: like all right, freaking Mike pints head ass, you finally

1056
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:30,600
Speaker 3: decided to do something right. But on the other hand,

1057
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:34,359
Speaker 3: it's like, no, for real, Like that was like when

1058
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:36,400
Speaker 3: it finally came down to it, you was like no,

1059
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:37,959
Speaker 3: I can't, yeah, I can't.

1060
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:43,839
Speaker 2: Fam you just a moment for the mic head pace.

1061
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:47,480
Speaker 3: At Mike pens Ass, like, oh, nigga, the last day

1062
00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:50,800
Speaker 3: of the job, You're gonna finally do something that's yeah.

1063
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:53,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would say the minimum is that minority of

1064
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 1: guys who just decided not to fight, right, Yeah, that's

1065
00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:59,799
Speaker 1: the minimum. Choosing to fight and stay loyal, I think

1066
00:51:59,880 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 1: is a step beyond that. Okay, well I'll I'll give

1067
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:05,880
Speaker 1: him that. I'll give him. That's hard. And you see,

1068
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:08,680
Speaker 1: you see who people are in moments of crisis, and

1069
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:11,959
Speaker 1: Lee has made it very clear who he is. He's

1070
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:12,560
Speaker 1: a coward.

1071
00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:15,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, he saved his own ass, Like you're saving your

1072
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:18,680
Speaker 3: own ass, you're saving your reputation. You're afraid to fess up,

1073
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:20,440
Speaker 3: You're afraid to man up, You're afraid to stand on

1074
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:21,200
Speaker 3: your own square.

1075
00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:24,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, buck and coward. Now you know who's not

1076
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:28,839
Speaker 1: a coward? Prop Sophie Lickterman, that's true and the other

1077
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:39,200
Speaker 1: sponsors of our podcast Facts We are back. So Lee

1078
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:43,200
Speaker 1: resigns his commission and he travels to Richmond, and as

1079
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:45,600
Speaker 1: was a pattern he for him, he never quite has

1080
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:48,120
Speaker 1: the courage to admit that he's doing this to take

1081
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:51,920
Speaker 1: command of the Virginia State military. He would later claim

1082
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:54,880
Speaker 1: he was just visiting Richmond to look over family property,

1083
00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:57,359
Speaker 1: but by the time he arrived, the State Commission had

1084
00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:00,480
Speaker 1: voted him commander in chief of Virginia's military f forces,

1085
00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:04,640
Speaker 1: and he has given George Washington's sword. Now, again, this

1086
00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:06,719
Speaker 1: I think gets into one of the real reasons why

1087
00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:10,960
Speaker 1: he does this. Remember, he's ashamed of his father and

1088
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:14,600
Speaker 1: he's obsessed with George Washington. Washington is the father he

1089
00:53:14,640 --> 00:53:18,200
Speaker 1: wished he'd had, and Washington's is the legacy that he

1090
00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:21,400
Speaker 1: wants to have for himself. I think being offered the

1091
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:25,640
Speaker 1: sword symbolizes to him finally taking on that heritage over

1092
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:29,080
Speaker 1: the legacy of his father. And this is also if

1093
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:33,759
Speaker 1: he leads secessionist forces to victory in a war of independence,

1094
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:37,120
Speaker 1: then he's the George Washington of the Confederacy. And I

1095
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:44,000
Speaker 1: think that, which is crude personal pride and benefit is

1096
00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:48,560
Speaker 1: the primary motivating factor beyond everything else. White supremacy plays

1097
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:52,359
Speaker 1: into it. Obviously a desire to maintain his property, sure.

1098
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:54,400
Speaker 2: But end of the day, I want to be the

1099
00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:55,160
Speaker 2: man he.

1100
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:56,840
Speaker 1: Wants to be fucking George Washington.

1101
00:53:56,920 --> 00:53:57,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to be the man.

1102
00:53:57,920 --> 00:53:59,440
Speaker 1: This is not a uni Obviously this is not a

1103
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:02,479
Speaker 1: universal belief among historians, but this is very much Alan

1104
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:05,160
Speaker 1: Gwelso really kind of lands on this, and I like

1105
00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:07,920
Speaker 1: his book a lot, and also Gwells is interesting. He

1106
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:09,840
Speaker 1: got some shit when it got anounced that he was

1107
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:12,480
Speaker 1: writing this book because he is like a conservative man.

1108
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:15,440
Speaker 1: Like politically he is a modern conservative today, he's taken

1109
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:19,880
Speaker 1: part in some like conservative like historical conferences. One of

1110
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:22,040
Speaker 1: the reasons why I think his book is valuable is

1111
00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:26,720
Speaker 1: because writing as a conservative, he is unsparingly pro union

1112
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:30,359
Speaker 1: and unsparingly anti like like he is. He's very open

1113
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:33,080
Speaker 1: about like Lee was a fucking trader, right, love it,

1114
00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:35,560
Speaker 1: And I think that's actually it's useful because you can

1115
00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:38,280
Speaker 1: kind of get some of this shit across to people

1116
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:42,080
Speaker 1: who are not like politically liberal or on the left.

1117
00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:45,200
Speaker 1: With Gwelso's biography, it's hard to argue.

1118
00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:45,480
Speaker 2: You can't.

1119
00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:47,440
Speaker 1: You simply can't argue with a lot of what the

1120
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:48,040
Speaker 1: man says.

1121
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:49,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that.

1122
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:52,120
Speaker 1: Obviously, it is debatable. Does he do this because he

1123
00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:54,439
Speaker 1: just wants to be his own? That is an arguable point.

1124
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:58,680
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that's absolute, but I buy Gwells's argument there.

1125
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:00,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like that that The case you've laid

1126
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:03,439
Speaker 3: out to me is like, I mean, I still am

1127
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:06,640
Speaker 3: a firm believer that history is just us back then.

1128
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:11,240
Speaker 3: So if you're just thinking, like whoever, like what would

1129
00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:16,680
Speaker 3: regular asks do do? And this is this is what

1130
00:55:16,719 --> 00:55:19,279
Speaker 3: regular ass do would do, and it's like, so that's

1131
00:55:19,360 --> 00:55:22,320
Speaker 3: probably what he did, you know, and all the different

1132
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:28,120
Speaker 3: layers that informed his decision. Nobody in I don't think

1133
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:32,480
Speaker 3: anybody is ever single minded and has and makes a decision,

1134
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:37,359
Speaker 3: you know, turning off one thing. There's multiple things at

1135
00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:40,480
Speaker 3: various levels of importance or whatever. Right, But like when

1136
00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:43,000
Speaker 3: you put it all together, at the end of the day,

1137
00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:48,520
Speaker 3: you're making a particular call, and you understand that this call,

1138
00:55:48,719 --> 00:55:51,359
Speaker 3: no matter how much you agonized it, you get that

1139
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:54,640
Speaker 3: once you make this call, all the implications come with it,

1140
00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:57,360
Speaker 3: you know, and this is just what it is, and

1141
00:55:57,440 --> 00:55:58,239
Speaker 3: you're willing to accept it.

1142
00:55:58,360 --> 00:55:58,520
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1143
00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:00,840
Speaker 1: There were people who saw this who are close to

1144
00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:03,560
Speaker 1: Lee and saw how self serving his decision was at

1145
00:56:03,560 --> 00:56:05,719
Speaker 1: the time, including family who stayed loyal. I'm going to

1146
00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:09,000
Speaker 1: quote again from American Heritage here. Upon learning that Lee

1147
00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:11,520
Speaker 1: had spent two days prayerfully searching for a decision, a

1148
00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:14,160
Speaker 1: cousin remarked acidly, I wish she had read over his

1149
00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:17,279
Speaker 1: commission as well as his prayers. At West Point, someone

1150
00:56:17,360 --> 00:56:19,319
Speaker 1: drew a picture of Lee with his head attached to

1151
00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:21,719
Speaker 1: the body of a louse. I feel no exalt of

1152
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:23,840
Speaker 1: respect for a man who takes part in a movement

1153
00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:26,320
Speaker 1: in which he can see nothing but anarchy and ruin.

1154
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:30,080
Speaker 1: And yet that very utteran scarce past Robert Lee's lips

1155
00:56:30,239 --> 00:56:32,920
Speaker 1: when he starts off with delegates to treat with traitors

1156
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:35,680
Speaker 1: was the response of Francis Blair's daughter, who had married

1157
00:56:35,719 --> 00:56:38,280
Speaker 1: into the Lee family right where he's like, he says

1158
00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:41,040
Speaker 1: that this is he doesn't support seceession. It's a bad call,

1159
00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:44,080
Speaker 1: it's disastrous. So why in the fuck is he doing

1160
00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:49,400
Speaker 1: this right? And the only answer I see is personal benefit,

1161
00:56:49,560 --> 00:56:51,399
Speaker 1: his own ego right.

1162
00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:56,160
Speaker 3: Another antidote from my grandma. She would always say you

1163
00:56:56,200 --> 00:56:58,840
Speaker 3: already know what you want to do. No matter what

1164
00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:00,440
Speaker 3: it was, you would always be like, you already know

1165
00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:02,279
Speaker 3: what you want to do. Yeah, it's like, oh, you're

1166
00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:04,480
Speaker 3: gonna pray about it. You're going to pray about it.

1167
00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:05,600
Speaker 3: You know what you want to do.

1168
00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:07,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, you just want you just want to be all

1169
00:57:07,440 --> 00:57:09,880
Speaker 4: able to argue that God told you to Yes, exactly.

1170
00:57:09,920 --> 00:57:11,000
Speaker 4: She was like, you know what you want to do.

1171
00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:12,680
Speaker 4: She used to always say that he know what he

1172
00:57:12,719 --> 00:57:15,480
Speaker 4: want to do, you know, And I'm like damn. Now,

1173
00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:18,560
Speaker 4: I'm like, wow, damn you right, mm hmm.

1174
00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:19,080
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1175
00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:23,320
Speaker 1: So Lee takes this job offered to him, commanding Virginia,

1176
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:26,440
Speaker 1: and again he's not yet a Confederate officer, right. The

1177
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:28,880
Speaker 1: Confederacy is starting to get like pulled together here, but

1178
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:31,280
Speaker 1: Virginia's has not committed to be a part of it yet.

1179
00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:33,360
Speaker 1: So he is the He is at this point the

1180
00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:36,920
Speaker 1: supreme commander of all of Virginia's military forces, which are

1181
00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:39,640
Speaker 1: dog shit at this state. Right, these are just a

1182
00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:42,640
Speaker 1: bunch of state militias, and like Lee had had to

1183
00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:45,000
Speaker 1: deal with state militias while he was in the US Army,

1184
00:57:45,040 --> 00:57:47,880
Speaker 1: they always suck ass, like they are incompetent, they're poor,

1185
00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:49,560
Speaker 1: they're actually not all that different from a lot of

1186
00:57:49,560 --> 00:57:52,920
Speaker 1: the malicious we have today. And he writes about them

1187
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:55,439
Speaker 1: that way, where like they're not willing to fucking do shit.

1188
00:57:55,800 --> 00:57:58,480
Speaker 1: So this is a really stressful job, right, He's his

1189
00:57:58,560 --> 00:58:00,760
Speaker 1: early gig is like he has to turn this into

1190
00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:04,880
Speaker 1: a functional military and he's pretty good at this. Again,

1191
00:58:04,920 --> 00:58:07,880
Speaker 1: this is Lee's period of competence. He knows how an

1192
00:58:07,960 --> 00:58:09,960
Speaker 1: army is supposed to work, so he is able. He

1193
00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:12,800
Speaker 1: promotes men to some of the jobs that they don't

1194
00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:15,120
Speaker 1: exist in the militia that need to exist, and he

1195
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:19,000
Speaker 1: starts organizing this into something that's kind of functional. Now

1196
00:58:19,160 --> 00:58:23,200
Speaker 1: he is in conflict regularly with the fact that the

1197
00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:27,840
Speaker 1: militias are all like there's this fever to join the

1198
00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:30,800
Speaker 1: Virginia military. When this all starts, like every man who

1199
00:58:30,840 --> 00:58:34,360
Speaker 1: can hold a gun basically declares themselves part of Virginia's army.

1200
00:58:34,680 --> 00:58:37,560
Speaker 1: But they don't actually like want to be real soldiers.

1201
00:58:37,600 --> 00:58:39,360
Speaker 1: They just they're hoping this is going to be over

1202
00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:41,440
Speaker 1: quickly and they can claim a little bit of glory.

1203
00:58:41,800 --> 00:58:43,840
Speaker 1: So one of the first things that happens is Lee

1204
00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:47,120
Speaker 1: is desperately trying to turn these militias into a functional army.

1205
00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:50,320
Speaker 1: Is stonewall. Jackson takes a bunch of dudes with rifles

1206
00:58:50,480 --> 00:58:54,640
Speaker 1: and occupies Maryland Heights without orders, and when Kay, here's this,

1207
00:58:54,720 --> 00:58:57,960
Speaker 1: Lee is like, fucking retreat. Don't do Like they could

1208
00:58:58,040 --> 00:59:00,720
Speaker 1: attack us, and they have an actual army. We don't yet,

1209
00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:03,440
Speaker 1: Like we can't don't provoke them yet. We're not ready

1210
00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:06,760
Speaker 1: to fight any kind of a battle. This is reasonable, right,

1211
00:59:06,800 --> 00:59:09,000
Speaker 1: This is Lee is not bad at this sort of stuff.

1212
00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:11,640
Speaker 1: He's absolutely right, Like Jackson has put them all in

1213
00:59:11,680 --> 00:59:14,360
Speaker 1: a terribly dangerous position. But the fact that he is

1214
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:18,640
Speaker 1: consistently like, stop rattling your saber, stop trying to provoke

1215
00:59:18,680 --> 00:59:21,080
Speaker 1: the North. We have to actually have an army before

1216
00:59:21,080 --> 00:59:23,240
Speaker 1: we do any of this. This gets him in trouble

1217
00:59:23,320 --> 00:59:27,800
Speaker 1: with his new found countrymen. As Alan Guelzo writes, complaints

1218
00:59:27,840 --> 00:59:30,800
Speaker 1: about Lee soon blossomed in Virginia. No one admires General

1219
00:59:30,880 --> 00:59:33,560
Speaker 1: Lee more than I do, wrote Albert Taylor BLEDSDA Jefferson

1220
00:59:33,640 --> 00:59:36,200
Speaker 1: Davis on May tenth. But I fear he is too despondent.

1221
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:39,120
Speaker 1: His remarks are calculated to dispirit our people. I have

1222
00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:42,320
Speaker 1: heard such remarks myself and energetically dissented from them. I

1223
00:59:42,360 --> 00:59:44,360
Speaker 1: fear he does not know how good and how righteous

1224
00:59:44,400 --> 00:59:48,080
Speaker 1: our cause is. Over exuberant Southerners began glancing over their

1225
00:59:48,080 --> 00:59:51,320
Speaker 1: shoulders at Lee. One of Mary Chestnut's South Carolina notables

1226
00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:54,000
Speaker 1: whispered that Robert E. Lee is against us that I know,

1227
00:59:54,320 --> 00:59:57,160
Speaker 1: and another predicted that General Lee will surely be tried

1228
00:59:57,200 --> 00:59:59,880
Speaker 1: for a trader. So because he's like, I don't care

1229
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:02,800
Speaker 1: how enthusiastic you are. If we don't have like supply

1230
01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:05,640
Speaker 1: lines set up, and like, actually, if we're not organized

1231
01:00:05,640 --> 01:00:08,840
Speaker 1: like a functional military, we're going to lose, and they're like,

1232
01:00:09,040 --> 01:00:10,520
Speaker 1: but our cause is righteous.

1233
01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:11,880
Speaker 2: What are you what? Coward?

1234
01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:14,400
Speaker 1: Like he's being called a trader for being like, don't

1235
01:00:14,440 --> 01:00:16,200
Speaker 1: start a war when we don't have an army.

1236
01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:17,480
Speaker 2: You get shits, you know?

1237
01:00:17,680 --> 01:00:22,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, you sound like I don't know, guys. Yeah, he

1238
01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:26,240
Speaker 3: kind of sounds like a bitch. It's like, no, fellas

1239
01:00:26,600 --> 01:00:27,880
Speaker 3: like you. No, I'm just saying.

1240
01:00:28,440 --> 01:00:30,840
Speaker 1: And this is he has found himself in a hell

1241
01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:32,120
Speaker 1: utterly of his own making.

1242
01:00:32,240 --> 01:00:33,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, you did not have to do this.

1243
01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:36,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe this is a sign you made the wrong

1244
01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:37,800
Speaker 1: fighting choice, Robert.

1245
01:00:38,960 --> 01:00:40,480
Speaker 2: What have I got myself in?

1246
01:00:40,640 --> 01:00:40,840
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1247
01:00:40,920 --> 01:00:42,680
Speaker 2: What the fuck am I doing? Yes?

1248
01:00:43,200 --> 01:00:46,640
Speaker 1: So, Virginia votes to join the newly formed Confederate States

1249
01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:49,760
Speaker 1: pretty shortly after this point, and Lee goes When this happens,

1250
01:00:49,760 --> 01:00:52,480
Speaker 1: he goes from the supreme commander of an independent Virginia

1251
01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:56,520
Speaker 1: to one more general under Jefferson Davis. Right, And this

1252
01:00:56,600 --> 01:00:59,560
Speaker 1: is also the moment where he loses his house. Lincoln

1253
01:00:59,680 --> 01:01:03,200
Speaker 1: is not stupid, and the Union waits to actually move

1254
01:01:03,240 --> 01:01:06,200
Speaker 1: on Virginia until they commit to the Confederate States because

1255
01:01:06,240 --> 01:01:08,800
Speaker 1: Ligan he's not going to like start a fight until

1256
01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:11,439
Speaker 1: he knows he has to. He's not a reckless man

1257
01:01:11,560 --> 01:01:15,000
Speaker 1: about this sort of shit. But as soon as Virginia's like, yeah,

1258
01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:19,120
Speaker 1: we're the Confederacy now, the Union moves to occupy and

1259
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:22,720
Speaker 1: seizes Arlington. Right now. Lee is not at Arlington. He

1260
01:01:22,760 --> 01:01:25,320
Speaker 1: has gone down to Richmond to take this job commanding

1261
01:01:25,400 --> 01:01:28,600
Speaker 1: Virginia's army, and he never returns. He never will see

1262
01:01:28,800 --> 01:01:32,000
Speaker 1: Arlington again. In letters, he's warning his wife as all

1263
01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:34,160
Speaker 1: of this is building up, He's repeatedly like, you got

1264
01:01:34,200 --> 01:01:36,720
Speaker 1: to get our shit and bounce take the silverware, Like

1265
01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:39,160
Speaker 1: he knows what's going to happen, and he knows that

1266
01:01:39,240 --> 01:01:42,400
Speaker 1: the Confederate military, the Virginian military, none of it's going

1267
01:01:42,480 --> 01:01:45,080
Speaker 1: to be able to stop the Union from taking Arlington.

1268
01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:48,920
Speaker 1: His wife holds out until the last minute and departs

1269
01:01:49,040 --> 01:01:51,960
Speaker 1: right before the property could be occupied by Union forces.

1270
01:01:52,000 --> 01:01:54,480
Speaker 1: And it's basically it's initially turned into like a forward

1271
01:01:54,560 --> 01:01:58,120
Speaker 1: operating base. Fitz Hugh Lee frames this as an act

1272
01:01:58,160 --> 01:02:01,880
Speaker 1: of courageous sacrifice by Lee rather than the inevitable result

1273
01:02:01,880 --> 01:02:04,160
Speaker 1: of the Confederacy being a bunch of arrogant pricks who

1274
01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:05,840
Speaker 1: launched a war they weren't ready to fight.

1275
01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:06,880
Speaker 2: Quote.

1276
01:02:07,200 --> 01:02:09,480
Speaker 1: In addition to the high position offered him, in the

1277
01:02:09,560 --> 01:02:12,720
Speaker 1: United States Army. He yielded his private fortune with his

1278
01:02:12,800 --> 01:02:17,000
Speaker 1: beautiful home Arlington, a home endeared by historic associations and

1279
01:02:17,080 --> 01:02:20,240
Speaker 1: many years of happy married life, a home of unsurpassed beauty,

1280
01:02:20,280 --> 01:02:23,720
Speaker 1: of situation, and adorned with all that midmost value, now

1281
01:02:23,800 --> 01:02:26,960
Speaker 1: destined to be the sport of rude soldiers. It's priceless

1282
01:02:26,960 --> 01:02:32,080
Speaker 1: relics scattered, it's beautiful surroundings desecrated, its choicest attractions destroyed.

1283
01:02:32,720 --> 01:02:35,560
Speaker 1: And I think it's funny that fits you. Thirty years

1284
01:02:35,560 --> 01:02:37,800
Speaker 1: after the war, is still sore enough to call Union

1285
01:02:37,880 --> 01:02:41,520
Speaker 1: soldiers rude, Like, oh, they're putting their feet upon the tables,

1286
01:02:42,200 --> 01:02:46,320
Speaker 1: this is matters. Yeah, it's not really true. And actually

1287
01:02:46,360 --> 01:02:49,960
Speaker 1: the officers who occupy Arlington are like, if Mary Lee

1288
01:02:50,040 --> 01:02:52,640
Speaker 1: had stayed, we'd have let her kept living at her house. Right,

1289
01:02:52,640 --> 01:02:55,080
Speaker 1: We're not going to kick an old she's an invalid, Right,

1290
01:02:55,160 --> 01:02:59,439
Speaker 1: she's sick, she can't really move very well. Like, these

1291
01:02:59,440 --> 01:03:01,760
Speaker 1: guys are not going to kick a sick old woman

1292
01:03:01,800 --> 01:03:03,200
Speaker 1: out of the house, right.

1293
01:03:03,560 --> 01:03:07,280
Speaker 3: So mama family, Yeah, it's fine, Yeah, Mama's fine.

1294
01:03:07,360 --> 01:03:11,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but you know she bounces anyway. And I

1295
01:03:11,800 --> 01:03:14,640
Speaker 1: will say, as the war goes on, these guys who

1296
01:03:14,640 --> 01:03:17,280
Speaker 1: are initially like, yeah, we'd have let her stay, they

1297
01:03:17,320 --> 01:03:20,520
Speaker 1: get angrier because all of their friends start getting killed, right,

1298
01:03:21,760 --> 01:03:23,840
Speaker 1: and this gets us to one of the funnier side

1299
01:03:23,840 --> 01:03:26,720
Speaker 1: stories of the Bobby Lee saga. So we're jumping ahead

1300
01:03:27,360 --> 01:03:29,440
Speaker 1: a bit here, but by the summer of eighteen sixty two,

1301
01:03:29,600 --> 01:03:31,280
Speaker 1: this is like a year or so into the act

1302
01:03:31,520 --> 01:03:34,439
Speaker 1: actual fighting in the Civil War, Congress passes a law

1303
01:03:34,480 --> 01:03:38,200
Speaker 1: to let them collect taxes on real estate and Confederate areas. Basically,

1304
01:03:38,440 --> 01:03:41,760
Speaker 1: I know you're traders, but we don't recognize the Confederacy

1305
01:03:41,760 --> 01:03:43,480
Speaker 1: as a separate state, so you still have to pay

1306
01:03:43,520 --> 01:03:47,400
Speaker 1: your fusing property taxes. And the intention here is to

1307
01:03:47,520 --> 01:03:51,920
Speaker 1: twist the screws in traders like Lee. Writing in Smithsonian Magazine,

1308
01:03:52,000 --> 01:03:55,880
Speaker 1: Robert Pool states appropriating the homestead was perfectly in keeping

1309
01:03:55,920 --> 01:03:58,920
Speaker 1: with the views of Lincoln, Secretary of War Edward M. Stanton,

1310
01:03:59,000 --> 01:04:02,040
Speaker 1: General William T. Sher and Montgomery Meegs, all of them

1311
01:04:02,080 --> 01:04:04,240
Speaker 1: believed in waging total war to bring the rebellion to

1312
01:04:04,280 --> 01:04:06,920
Speaker 1: his speedy conclusion, make them so sick of war that

1313
01:04:07,000 --> 01:04:09,920
Speaker 1: generations would pass away before they would then appeal to it.

1314
01:04:09,960 --> 01:04:13,880
Speaker 1: Sherman wrote, and Mary tries to pay their tax bill.

1315
01:04:13,960 --> 01:04:16,160
Speaker 1: She sends like a cousin who stays in the north

1316
01:04:16,200 --> 01:04:18,280
Speaker 1: to like pay the bill on her behalf. But county

1317
01:04:18,280 --> 01:04:20,840
Speaker 1: commissioners and Alexandria are like, now you got to pay

1318
01:04:20,880 --> 01:04:25,080
Speaker 1: in person. Yeah, you can't do that, So they seize Arlington.

1319
01:04:25,200 --> 01:04:28,000
Speaker 1: The government does and puts it up for auction. And

1320
01:04:28,040 --> 01:04:29,520
Speaker 1: if you want to know how the process of auctioning

1321
01:04:29,560 --> 01:04:32,680
Speaker 1: a property works, you can refer to the documentary Happy Gilmore.

1322
01:04:32,920 --> 01:04:36,040
Speaker 1: But sadly, Roberty Lee is dog shit at golf, so

1323
01:04:36,080 --> 01:04:38,080
Speaker 1: he's not able to get his property back.

1324
01:04:39,360 --> 01:04:43,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, rest in peace. It all comes back to comes

1325
01:04:43,040 --> 01:04:43,560
Speaker 2: back to.

1326
01:04:45,520 --> 01:04:47,760
Speaker 1: We're going to talk more about what becomes of Arlington

1327
01:04:47,760 --> 01:04:49,440
Speaker 1: in part four, and we're also going to take a

1328
01:04:49,480 --> 01:04:52,360
Speaker 1: look at Lee's actual performance in the war and whether

1329
01:04:52,480 --> 01:04:54,600
Speaker 1: or not he deserves to be remembered as the greatest

1330
01:04:54,680 --> 01:04:58,160
Speaker 1: general of the war. Furthermore, we'll talk about the rumors

1331
01:04:58,200 --> 01:05:00,920
Speaker 1: that he had an unhealthy love affair with his horse Traveler.

1332
01:05:01,240 --> 01:05:04,080
Speaker 1: But yes, today I really wanted to you have to

1333
01:05:04,160 --> 01:05:07,520
Speaker 1: kind of spend an hour talking about Whitedly turned trader

1334
01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:10,960
Speaker 1: because there's so much disinfo about it and what we

1335
01:05:11,120 --> 01:05:13,760
Speaker 1: do know, what we can verify is so fucking clear.

1336
01:05:14,080 --> 01:05:16,240
Speaker 1: I feel like, yeah, I hope anyone who had any

1337
01:05:16,320 --> 01:05:19,760
Speaker 1: lingering doubts about that has had them assuaged.

1338
01:05:19,800 --> 01:05:23,200
Speaker 3: At this point, you had some color to like a

1339
01:05:23,280 --> 01:05:26,560
Speaker 3: narrative I understood, which I really appreciate. I do want

1340
01:05:26,560 --> 01:05:29,080
Speaker 3: to go back to this, like the reality on the

1341
01:05:29,080 --> 01:05:33,000
Speaker 3: ground of like the Confederate States, we're still paying taxes. Yes,

1342
01:05:33,240 --> 01:05:38,360
Speaker 3: it's it reminds me of like you know, your kid

1343
01:05:38,440 --> 01:05:38,960
Speaker 3: being like.

1344
01:05:39,880 --> 01:05:40,640
Speaker 2: Get out of my room.

1345
01:05:40,680 --> 01:05:43,040
Speaker 3: It's my room, stay out of my life, and then

1346
01:05:43,080 --> 01:05:46,439
Speaker 3: they slam the door and then you're like, okay, cool,

1347
01:05:46,440 --> 01:05:47,720
Speaker 3: I was just going to walk over to the router

1348
01:05:47,760 --> 01:05:50,840
Speaker 3: and turn off the internet because I'm out of your life.

1349
01:05:50,920 --> 01:05:53,400
Speaker 3: Apparently you know what I'm saying, Like you understand your

1350
01:05:53,480 --> 01:05:56,320
Speaker 3: room is attached to my house, right, and then when

1351
01:05:56,360 --> 01:05:57,760
Speaker 3: you come out of that room to try to go

1352
01:05:57,800 --> 01:06:01,080
Speaker 3: to my refrigerator. Oh, I'm sorry, sweetheart, I'm out of

1353
01:06:01,120 --> 01:06:04,760
Speaker 3: your life. This refrigerator full of food is for people.

1354
01:06:04,800 --> 01:06:08,480
Speaker 3: That's part of my life. Yeah right, Oh you're gonna

1355
01:06:08,520 --> 01:06:10,120
Speaker 3: eat it. Okay, cool, You're right, I'll get out of

1356
01:06:10,160 --> 01:06:12,000
Speaker 3: your life now. I still expect the trash to be

1357
01:06:12,160 --> 01:06:15,400
Speaker 3: emptied in the next, so you out of your fighting

1358
01:06:15,480 --> 01:06:17,080
Speaker 3: as you empty in the trash. Maybe you still got

1359
01:06:17,160 --> 01:06:21,240
Speaker 3: chores here cuz like I like you. Okay, I'm gonna

1360
01:06:21,240 --> 01:06:23,800
Speaker 3: give you some space. Go ahead and give you some space.

1361
01:06:24,960 --> 01:06:27,720
Speaker 3: It's still my house, right, So I think it's so funny.

1362
01:06:27,800 --> 01:06:31,560
Speaker 3: It's like we're succeeding. Also, what's tax rate? Eight percent?

1363
01:06:32,280 --> 01:06:34,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, you still gotta pay your taxes. Gotta pay your taxes.

1364
01:06:34,640 --> 01:06:37,400
Speaker 1: Fab now that that's definitely one of the more baller

1365
01:06:37,520 --> 01:06:41,840
Speaker 1: moves of the Lincoln administration. Yeah, yeah, like all right,

1366
01:06:41,960 --> 01:06:45,320
Speaker 1: well we simply don't care fifteen guys. Yeah, coming up,

1367
01:06:45,480 --> 01:06:48,680
Speaker 1: you still gotta pay, still gotta pay fam uh huh,

1368
01:06:48,800 --> 01:06:52,880
Speaker 1: all right, prop, where can the people find you? Should

1369
01:06:52,880 --> 01:06:54,720
Speaker 1: then want to do this?

1370
01:06:55,200 --> 01:06:57,680
Speaker 3: Find me in the hood. I'm posted, I'm just playing.

1371
01:06:59,280 --> 01:07:03,760
Speaker 3: You can find me prop hip Hop Talk Politics Pod.

1372
01:07:04,000 --> 01:07:08,040
Speaker 3: You know, we really turned it up this year to

1373
01:07:08,080 --> 01:07:10,720
Speaker 3: make sure that, like we're really giving y'all our a game.

1374
01:07:11,760 --> 01:07:16,520
Speaker 3: Who Politics Pod is the Instagram prop hip Hop is

1375
01:07:16,560 --> 01:07:17,160
Speaker 3: my everything?

1376
01:07:17,880 --> 01:07:21,760
Speaker 1: Excellent? Well, everybody, this has been behind the bastards. If

1377
01:07:21,800 --> 01:07:25,320
Speaker 1: you want to get more from us, you can check

1378
01:07:25,360 --> 01:07:29,200
Speaker 1: out Better Offline, our new tech Focus podcast covering the

1379
01:07:29,280 --> 01:07:31,920
Speaker 1: disaster that is the tech industry and how it's fucking

1380
01:07:31,960 --> 01:07:33,840
Speaker 1: up all of our lives with the great ed Zitron.

1381
01:07:34,760 --> 01:07:36,800
Speaker 1: If you want to find my novel After the Revolution,

1382
01:07:37,120 --> 01:07:40,440
Speaker 1: just type that into Google with ak press, or just

1383
01:07:40,480 --> 01:07:42,960
Speaker 1: go to whatever bookseller and type it into their thing

1384
01:07:43,040 --> 01:07:45,560
Speaker 1: and you can buy my book. This has been a

1385
01:07:45,600 --> 01:07:48,840
Speaker 1: podcast I have been Robert Evans come back for part four.

1386
01:07:48,880 --> 01:07:52,480
Speaker 1: We will answer the question on everybody's mind, did Bobby

1387
01:07:52,560 --> 01:07:53,520
Speaker 1: Lee fuck that horse?

1388
01:07:54,920 --> 01:08:01,120
Speaker 2: The answer will surprise us all. Behind the Bastards is

1389
01:08:01,120 --> 01:08:03,880
Speaker 2: a production of cool Zone Media. For more from cool

1390
01:08:03,960 --> 01:08:08,200
Speaker 2: Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia dot com, or check

1391
01:08:08,280 --> 01:08:11,240
Speaker 2: us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

1392
01:08:11,280 --> 01:08:12,360
Speaker 2: you get your podcasts.