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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every

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Speaker 1: day we bring you insight and analysis into the most

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Speaker 1: important legal news of the day. You can find more

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Speaker 1: episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud

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Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. The Democratic National

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Speaker 1: Committee has sued Russia, the Trump campaign, and wiki leagues,

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Speaker 1: claiming widespread interference in the election as part of a

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Speaker 1: quote Braisen attack on American democracy. The lawsuit drew criticism

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Speaker 1: even among Democrats, but d n C chair Tom Perez,

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Speaker 1: appearing on ABC's This Week Yesterday, defended the suit and

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Speaker 1: the timing of filing it. In order to file a

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Speaker 1: civil suit, you've got to make sure you're filing it

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Speaker 1: within the applicable statute of limitations. I don't know when

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Speaker 1: Director Mueller's investigation is gonna end, so we need to

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Speaker 1: file now to protect our rights. Joining me is David Glovin.

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg News East Coast Legal Team leader David tell us

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Speaker 1: more about the allegations in this sixty six page complaint.

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Speaker 1: Sure The DNC argues that the opening salvo on Russia's

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Speaker 1: brazen attack on American democracy, and that's the d n

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Speaker 1: c's phrase was a cyber attack on the d n C.

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Speaker 1: Um according to the complaint and and it's mirror and

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Speaker 1: allegations that have come up and and Special Counsel Robert

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Speaker 1: Mueller's investigation and news reports in two thousand fifteen two

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Speaker 1: thousand sixteen, Russian intelligence service hacked into the d n

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Speaker 1: c's computers, penetrated its phone systems, exfiltrated tens of thousands

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Speaker 1: of doc documents and emails, and then Russia used this

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Speaker 1: stolen information to advance its own interest. Um, what the

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Speaker 1: lawsuit claims and what others have said is that in

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Speaker 1: the Trump campaign, Russia found a willing and active partner,

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Speaker 1: that's a quote from the complaint, in disseminating information from

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Speaker 1: from the d n C servers. So basically it's it's

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Speaker 1: information that's already been out there, nothing new. But could

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Speaker 1: this mean that Trump staffers from the campaign will have

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Speaker 1: to answer questions under oath about campaign activities and then,

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Speaker 1: unlike the Mueller probe where we don't really know what

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Speaker 1: they have, for sure that we'll hear that information well.

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Speaker 1: In addition to suing the Russian Federation and others in Russia,

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Speaker 1: the lawsuit names the Trump campaign, UM, the President, Paul Manafort,

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Speaker 1: Roger Stone, Jared Kushner. So it is very likely that

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Speaker 1: the d n C S lawyers, if they survive and

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Speaker 1: eventual dismissal did will seek to question, to depose um

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Speaker 1: anyone and anyone, anyone and anything they can think of

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Speaker 1: to learn what was going on. So foreign governments are

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Speaker 1: generally protected under this Foreign Sovereign Immunity Act from US lawsuits.

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Speaker 1: Is it likely that after, as you said, a motion dismissed,

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Speaker 1: that Russia will be out of the suit. That's unclear.

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Speaker 1: The there is the Foreign Sovereign Immunity Act that that

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Speaker 1: would protect a foreign country and agencies of the foreign country. Um,

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Speaker 1: there are exceptions to the rule, and the d n

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Speaker 1: C is arguing that this case should be one such

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Speaker 1: exception because it's a trespass on the computer servers. So

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Speaker 1: that's something that will be litigated, uh and the judge

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Speaker 1: will eventually will want and that computer element is why

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Speaker 1: they say they had to file this within what's called

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Speaker 1: the statute of limitation, right right. I believe they said

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Speaker 1: there was a two year statute of limitation from from

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Speaker 1: the hack or the first hack, and we were approaching

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Speaker 1: that date. So President Trump has threatened to countersue in tweets, saying,

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Speaker 1: we will now counter for the d n C server

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Speaker 1: that they refused to give to the FBI. What is

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Speaker 1: he referring to their exactly? I think what the President

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Speaker 1: was referring to is that UM that the Trump campaign can,

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Speaker 1: just as the d n C can engage in discovery

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Speaker 1: and question witnesses, the Trump campaign UM can do that

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Speaker 1: as well, and that they plan to look into issues

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Speaker 1: related to Hillary Clinton and other issues that would have

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Speaker 1: us relitigating the election. Yeah, it seems like this suit

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Speaker 1: will be a lot of relitigating of different things that

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Speaker 1: we've been talking about for the last couple of years.

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Speaker 1: This lawsuit actually echoes a nine seventies to suit by

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Speaker 1: the d n C. Tell me a little bit about that. Okay,

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Speaker 1: it's a little bit. It's like it's it's a little

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Speaker 1: bit successfully sued after the Watergate break in and did

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Speaker 1: get a settlement UM. And and that is one possibility here,

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Speaker 1: of course, UM. But more more significant is that you

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Speaker 1: will see the d n C seeking um extensive discovery

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Speaker 1: to find out who knew what and when and uh

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Speaker 1: wiki leaks has argued on its Twitter account that it's

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Speaker 1: constitutionally protected from such suits. We're going to see a

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Speaker 1: lot of these arguments and talk about motion to Smiths

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Speaker 1: and how how that may play into all this. Sure,

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Speaker 1: I mean typically when a lawsuits filed of this nature,

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Speaker 1: the party is even before discovery will seek to dismiss

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Speaker 1: on on one ground or another. UM in Russian Federation,

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Speaker 1: Russia will seek to dismiss having the Fire and Sovereign

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Speaker 1: Immunities Act. Wiki leaks might point to First Amendment protections.

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Speaker 1: Perhaps I'm unclear as to what the Trump campaign would do. UM.

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Speaker 1: They may argue that there are facts insufficient for this

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Speaker 1: case to go forward, even if accepted by the d

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Speaker 1: n C, but they'll be willing at arguments in the

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Speaker 1: in the weeks and months to come. It's it seems

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Speaker 1: as if there's enough here to to get at least

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Speaker 1: part of it through emotion to dismiss. It's possible, It's

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Speaker 1: certainly possible, and then you would see discovery and as

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Speaker 1: you see facts UM coming out from the Special Council

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Speaker 1: or elsewhere, they could it could lead to an amended

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Speaker 1: complaint and more allegations in the case, more and more

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Speaker 1: claims this could be around for a while. It could be,

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Speaker 1: and UM, I think it would be refreshing to know

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Speaker 1: what is actually being asked for people and what their

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Speaker 1: answers are instead of hearing things, you know, second hand

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Speaker 1: and third hand from reporters. Right. And that's one of

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Speaker 1: one of the for those who want these issues to

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Speaker 1: be aired publicly. A lawsuit is typically a civil lawsuit

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Speaker 1: is typically in a public forum, so there are UH,

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Speaker 1: depositions might not be public when taken, but excerpts of

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Speaker 1: the depositions can be included in in exhibits. Um. And

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Speaker 1: of course ever goes to trial, Um, then then that's

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Speaker 1: all in public and we'll see how many years it

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Speaker 1: takes to get to trial if it does. Thank you, David.

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Speaker 1: That's David Clevin, Bloomberg News East Coast Legal Team leader.

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Speaker 1: A record fine of one billion dollars for Wells Fargo,

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Speaker 1: the country's third largest bank, has agreed to a settlement,

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Speaker 1: unprecedented it in more ways than just the amount of

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Speaker 1: the fine. Mick Mulvaney, who has been running the CFPB

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Speaker 1: in addition to being Trump's budget director, explained that the

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Speaker 1: settlement covers issues in Wells fargoes auto lending and mortgage units.

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Speaker 1: The size of the finest historic. It's five hundre million

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Speaker 1: dollars o c C five hunmillion dollars to the to

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Speaker 1: the Bureau of Consumer Financial Protection. But the violations here

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Speaker 1: were historical. Keep in mind that by some counts, as

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Speaker 1: many as a million consumers were impacted by just that

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Speaker 1: the two types of actions that were addressed in the

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Speaker 1: consent order joining me is Robert Hockett, professor at Cornell

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Speaker 1: Law School, Bob. This settlement also gives the o c

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Speaker 1: C the right to remove some of Wells Fargoes executives

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Speaker 1: or board members. How tough is this consent decree in

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Speaker 1: relation to others, Well, John, I think this actually sort

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Speaker 1: of coheres with the others. It's quite consistent with them.

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Speaker 1: In fact, you would almost think that it's all part

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Speaker 1: of a sort of coordinated regulatory strategy among the various

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Speaker 1: regulators who have jurisdiction over Wales FARGA. So, as you know,

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Speaker 1: back in February, when the FED announced that it was

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Speaker 1: going to place a ceiling on the asset growth of

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Speaker 1: Wells until it sort of cleaned up its act. Among

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Speaker 1: the recommended clean up actions were not only the putting

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Speaker 1: into place of a better set of internal compliance procedures,

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Speaker 1: but also the removal and replacement of several board members.

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Speaker 1: So one might view the OCCS reference to this same

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Speaker 1: possible remedy as in effect sort of echoing with the

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Speaker 1: FEAT has already strongly suggested. We might note also in

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Speaker 1: this connection that it looks as though well as has

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Speaker 1: been thinking about retiring a few of those board members already,

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Speaker 1: because several of them have been on the board for

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Speaker 1: many years. Indeed, so the settlement was the first enforcement

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Speaker 1: action undertaken by the CFPB under the acting Director Mulveney, who,

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Speaker 1: as we've discussed before, has been an opponent of the

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Speaker 1: CFPB and hadn't announced any new enforcement actions since he

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Speaker 1: took over. There. Does this ease the minds of consumer

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Speaker 1: advocates about Mulveney or not? I sort of doubt that

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Speaker 1: it will, although I'm sure that something like that might

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Speaker 1: have been in the mind of Mr mulka any when

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Speaker 1: the when his bureau announced the particular sanction. The thing

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Speaker 1: that's kind of puzzling about the sanction um, I think

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Speaker 1: sort of explains why it is that some might be

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Speaker 1: a little bit skeptical. So the first is there's absolutely

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Speaker 1: no explanation given as to how that amount was reached

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Speaker 1: or what connection that actually has to the actual losses

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Speaker 1: that Wells is thought to have inflicted upon its own customers.

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Speaker 1: The best estimates out there as to those losses are

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Speaker 1: that they're much much smaller, uh than the fee it

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, than the find itself. So I think some

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Speaker 1: cynics or skeptics might think that this is sort of

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Speaker 1: a political gesture designed on the one hand, to kind

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Speaker 1: of assuage the concerns of some who are concerned that

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Speaker 1: Mr Malvania is not a legitimate acting director of the

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Speaker 1: cfpb UH And second it might also partly be designed

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Speaker 1: to respond to Mr Trump's tweet about Wales Argo some

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Speaker 1: weeks back, and Indy the piece came out this weekend

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Speaker 1: suggesting that that's exactly what was stuff that at work here, Bob.

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Speaker 1: There's also a departure from earlier CFPD practice in the

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Speaker 1: consent order, which allows Wells Fargo to determine whether consumers

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Speaker 1: suffered cognizible harm from the bank's activities. How will that

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Speaker 1: affect the fine, Well, it's it's hard to tell at

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Speaker 1: this point. I mean, you know that the nightmare scenario

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Speaker 1: would be one where you know, Well's purports to conduct

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Speaker 1: a thorough investigation of the actual concuniary damages that were

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Speaker 1: claused by its wrongs um and arise at very minimal numbers,

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Speaker 1: and then the CFP says, the CFPP says, all right, well,

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Speaker 1: if you say so, Um, I suspect that's not going

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Speaker 1: to happen. However, given that Wells has faced a great deal,

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Speaker 1: of course, of negative scrutiny over the last several years,

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Speaker 1: and it's still in in the in the doghouse, so

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Speaker 1: to speak, it's also maybe worth noting that you know,

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Speaker 1: well has benefited up to close to four billion dollars

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Speaker 1: under the new tax cuts from December, so it might

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Speaker 1: actually view this particular find is something eminently affordable, since

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Speaker 1: it simply takes away about one quarter of the windfall

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Speaker 1: that sives thanks to the new tax legislation that Trump

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Speaker 1: was pushing back in December. The Chief Financial Officer said

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Speaker 1: on April thirt that investigations are quote midway through. What

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Speaker 1: other investigations are pending here? Well, it's there's, as you

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Speaker 1: might recall, um, you know, over the last several years,

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Speaker 1: quite a few scandals have emerged. Uh, And one of

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Speaker 1: the sort of meta scandals you might say that's sort

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Speaker 1: of implicated by all of these scandals is that there's

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Speaker 1: been inadequate sort of internal investigation within the massive and

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Speaker 1: sprawling organization that as well as Fargo itself, into sort

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Speaker 1: of what kinds of wrongs or abuses have been being committed,

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Speaker 1: what kinds of harms have been being caused, who has

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Speaker 1: been responsible, who's given the okay and so forth. So

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Speaker 1: in the sense, you know, as you and I have talked,

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Speaker 1: of course about some of the earlier well scandals, and uh,

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Speaker 1: in a couple of our earlier conversations, we were noting that,

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Speaker 1: you know, more shoes are probably yet to draw, and

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Speaker 1: I think that's still the case now. Basically it's taking

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Speaker 1: a long time, I think, to go through um the

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Speaker 1: massive volume of records of this institution to find out

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Speaker 1: what all the wrongs have been and again what the

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Speaker 1: harms are that have been cause, particularly the dollar amounts

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Speaker 1: at those arms, And so I suspect we're still you know,

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Speaker 1: in kind of investigation mode even internally at Wells for

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Speaker 1: some time to come. You've got a minute, Bob, what

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Speaker 1: shoes are going to drop? Perhaps during the shareholder meeting tomorrow.

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Speaker 1: Oh my, well, that that should be. That should be interesting.

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Speaker 1: Um So that a couple of things to note, maybe

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Speaker 1: really quickly, since bee only of a minute. You might

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Speaker 1: recall that um wells as share price actually rose uh

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Speaker 1: hopers set on Friday after this CFPUB announcement. So it

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Speaker 1: could be that some shareholders are thinking, oh boy, you know,

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Speaker 1: so very glad we have this behind us, now we

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Speaker 1: have closure, and they won't be so upset. I suspect many, however,

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Speaker 1: aren't going to be satisfied as if yet. They might

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Speaker 1: need clamor for some of those board changes, and that

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Speaker 1: would be an easy one for Wells to sort of

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Speaker 1: comply with, because again they're already planning on doing that

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Speaker 1: anyway for some of the longer serving board members. Well,

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Speaker 1: we'll keep informed of that that. I know that demonstrations

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Speaker 1: are planned around the downtown Marriott in Des Moines, Iowa,

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Speaker 1: where they're in the shareholders meeting. So perhaps we'll talk

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Speaker 1: and get on Wednesday. Bob, Thanks so much. That's Robert Hockett,

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Speaker 1: professor at Cornell University Law School. Thanks for listening to

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Speaker 1: the Bloomberg Law podcast. You can subscribe and Listen to

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Speaker 1: the show on Apple podcast, SoundCloud, and on bloomberg dot

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Speaker 1: com slash podcast. I'm June Brosso. This is Bloomberg