1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:02,880 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Cool People Do Cool Stuff, your 2 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:06,280 Speaker 1: weekly dose of sometimes people fight against the bad things. 3 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:09,640 Speaker 1: I'm your host, Margaret kilj With me today as a 4 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 1: guest is okay? There was no one else that I 5 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 1: could have had as a guest for this episode. With 6 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: Me Today as a guest is Sophie Lichterman, who you 7 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 1: all might be aware of as the Webby Award winning 8 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:25,080 Speaker 1: podcast producer most known for her work with Jamie Loftus. Sophie, 9 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 1: how are you doing? 10 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 2: It's my favorite intro I've ever received. Also, shout out 11 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 2: Jimmie Loftus. Pre order her book or by the time 12 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:34,839 Speaker 2: it comes out, order her book row Dog. Thank you 13 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:35,199 Speaker 2: so much. 14 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, I literally pre ordered it today after telling other 15 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 1: people to pre order it for a long time. 16 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 2: Hey, a pre order is a pre order, Okay today? 17 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:48,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, and our producer today is Sophie. 18 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 2: Oh my god, Sophie. Hi Sophie. 19 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. Ian is our audio engineer Hien. Once people hear 20 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 1: the topic, they'll understand why Sophie is the guest today. Anyway. 21 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: Ian is our audio engineer, Hi Ian. The theme music 22 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:05,760 Speaker 1: was written for us by unwoman. Since people ask me 23 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 1: this about once a week, I'm saying unwoman like, not 24 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: woman like U N w O m e N. That 25 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:15,559 Speaker 1: is the name I'm saying every week. 26 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 2: No, you're not. You said unwomen. You just spelled unwomen. 27 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 2: You're saying, Oh god, yes, I can't do anything. Bucked 28 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 2: it up and audio wise, you. 29 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: Know, as funny as as I was type it is, 30 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 1: I was like, why am I bothering to type this 31 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 1: out with dashes? I'll just look at the word and 32 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: spell it, but clearly I'll mess it up either way. 33 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 1: So today's cool people, Sophie, have you ever heard of 34 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: you ever heard of dogs? 35 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 2: Yeah? My reason for living? 36 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, dogs are the best. If you were to rate 37 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 1: dogs into tears, all dogs would be s tier, which 38 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: is the highest tier. 39 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 2: Uh huh. 40 00:01:54,520 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: That is a scientifically categorizable facts, with the exception of 41 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: the Boston Dynamics wrote about dog, which is not a dog. 42 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 2: No, doesn't count. 43 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:09,079 Speaker 1: Yeah, those have to be taken individually and judged on 44 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: their individual actions. 45 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 2: Mm hmmm. 46 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: Today this week we're talking about dogs in general. We're 47 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: gonna be talking about riot dogs. But I'm obsessed with context, 48 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 1: so we're gonna talk about dogs. 49 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:27,799 Speaker 2: Baby, let's go, who let the dogs out? Okay? Well, 50 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 2: I pro wished, Margaret, I wouldn't do the who let 51 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 2: the dogs that reference more than once, so I'm getting 52 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 2: it out of the way early. So yeah, Margaret, tell 53 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:39,359 Speaker 2: me who let the dogs out? Whooo? 54 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: Probably no, probably Siberia, but possibly Southeast Asia. Actually, so 55 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 1: dogs are the first domesticated animal. Yeah, I'm gonna take 56 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 1: this way back. Dogs are the first domesticated animal. Dogs 57 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 1: are not descended from modern wolves. They are descended from 58 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 1: the pleustoicne wolf, the plasticine wolf, from which the modern 59 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 1: gray wolf also descends, so they're like cousins or siblings 60 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 1: to the modern gray wolf. Basically, dogs are descended from 61 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 1: the wolves that evolve to hunt now extinct megafauna like 62 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:16,080 Speaker 1: mammoths and shit. Just part of why dogs are so cool. 63 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: They roamed over basically the entire northern hemisphere. These are 64 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 1: the wolves. They roamed over the entire northern hemisphere in 65 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 1: the last ice Age. They crossed the bearing Land Bridge 66 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 1: and shit the same as the mammoths did. And when 67 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 1: the megafauna went away, so did these wolves. Let's talk 68 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 1: about these wolves. Wolves are cooperative game hunters. They also 69 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: don't really travel in packs. 70 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 2: Interesting, it's more of like a it's not like a pack. 71 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 2: It's more of like a duo. Right yeah, yeah. 72 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: Well, I mean actually there's often a lot of them, 73 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: but it's a family unit. It's usually a nuclear family. 74 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 1: It is a mated pair and their kids. And I 75 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: can't talk about wolves that bringing up the alpha wolf thing. 76 00:03:57,880 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: I really want to talk about the alpha wolf thing. 77 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 1: So I'm gonna do you know, the alpha wolf thing. 78 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 2: I do because Anderson, my dog, who is perfect shout 79 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 2: out Anderson, recovering from surgery and still the baddest of 80 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 2: the baddest bitches. I call her an alpha fox because fox, 81 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 2: cousin of the wolf, looks like more foxy than wolfy Okay, 82 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 2: and uh has the personality of an alpha fox, which 83 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 2: I mean of an alpha wolf. 84 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 1: See that's how well, but but alpha wolves aren't real. 85 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: This is what I'm trying to tell you. 86 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 2: No, no, it's it all goes back to, you know, the 87 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 2: male male authority. Yeah right, well, am I there. 88 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm gonna. I'm gonna tell the story because I'm 89 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 1: really excited about because one of my thing favorite things 90 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:47,479 Speaker 1: in the world is that when people call themselves alpha males, 91 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:53,920 Speaker 1: they're basically calling themselves domesticated. Now that domesticated captive. They 92 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 1: are saying, I am in captivity. Yeah, you are, because 93 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:01,040 Speaker 1: the alpha male thing is entire based on a combination 94 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:05,840 Speaker 1: of lies and misunderstandings about wolf behavior. In nineteen seventy, 95 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 1: this guy named David Mech put out a book called 96 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: The Wolf, The Ecology and Behavior of an Endangered Species. 97 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 1: Since then, this guy is still alive. He rules he's 98 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:18,719 Speaker 1: spent decades trying to be like, hey, a lot of 99 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:21,040 Speaker 1: the stuff in that first book was wrong. We've learned 100 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 1: an awful lot since that book came out, or, to 101 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 1: quote him more directly, we've learned more about wolf since 102 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 1: that book's publication than we had an all of previous history. 103 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 1: But the book is still in print, and he's tried 104 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 1: time and time and again to get it taken out 105 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 1: of print, but it sells well, so the publisher's like, 106 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: whatever are we Yeah, I. 107 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 2: Was going to say alpha capitalism. 108 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:47,039 Speaker 1: Yeah, totally the thing that this book got wrong. And 109 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 1: he was not the first person to get this wrong. 110 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:49,839 Speaker 2: He was. 111 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 1: I believe it goes back to the nineteen thirties, but 112 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 1: I didn't put that part in the script, so I'm 113 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 1: not sure what it got wrong. Was the idea of 114 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 1: an alpha wolf in a pecking order. He called it 115 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:02,720 Speaker 1: a lead wolf in the in the book, but it's 116 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 1: the same idea. It's what the alpha wolf people get 117 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: the thing from. It was about how a dominant male 118 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: controls the entire pack and picks on the weakest members. 119 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 1: And this is only true of wolves in captivity. So 120 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:17,480 Speaker 1: next time you meet someone who says they're in alpha, 121 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 1: well I have never actually have you ever met a 122 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 1: human in real life who says that they're in alpha? 123 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:27,720 Speaker 2: Just unfortunately on many many dating apps. Oh god, yeah, 124 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 2: a lot of times they lead with that in their 125 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 2: bio and that's an intelle. Yeah. Yeah, it's horrible. 126 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 1: You've ever seen go ahead. 127 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 2: I was just gonna say, it's it's a tragedy to 128 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 2: deal with this men, It's really horrible. 129 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 1: There's this video that lives rent free in my head 130 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:46,719 Speaker 1: and I can't remember the name of the like comedian 131 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:48,599 Speaker 1: group that did it, where they're like a bunch of 132 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 1: bros going down the street and they're like jumping up 133 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 1: and down and they're like yeah, bros. And then they 134 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 1: go up and they're like all right, all right, true 135 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: or false? For a dollar masculinity is a prison and 136 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 1: people are like true and they're like true, masculinity could 137 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 1: be a prison. 138 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 2: Baby. 139 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: It lives rent free in my head. You all should 140 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 1: look it up somehow. I'm not sure how. 141 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 2: Anyway, I want to know how that video reached you. 142 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 1: Who in the algorithm was like Margaret needs that. I 143 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 1: don't know. But next time you meet one of these 144 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 1: people on your dating app, it's like they're saying, I 145 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 1: am in prison and other people are in charge of me, 146 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 1: because that's the only way you get alpha wolf behavior. 147 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 1: Of course, the prison in this case is patriarchy, and 148 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 1: it's real, and it's probably why human men exhibit this behavior, 149 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 1: and I mean, frankly, it's why in actual prison you 150 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 1: see the same dynamics, but much much worse. 151 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 2: Right. 152 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 1: It is a thing that people and the wolves do 153 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: in captivity, as they create pecking orders and are terrible. 154 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 1: In the wild, wolves form family units, a mated pair 155 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 1: in their offspring. Sometimes the kids fuck off at a 156 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 1: year of age and start their own thing, but sometimes 157 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 1: they don't. Sometimes they stick around a while longer and 158 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 1: help the next round of puppies, and some packs do 159 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 1: form with multiple breeding pairs. Occasionally, I believe in this 160 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 1: case it's always the oldest wolf that is the lead wolf. 161 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 1: But to quote a research science Curicassidy quote, the wolves 162 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 1: generally in the dominant positions within a pack are not 163 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 1: there because they fought for it. It's not some battle 164 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: to get to the top position. They're just the oldest 165 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 1: or the parents, or in the case of same sex siblings, 166 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: it's a matter of personality. 167 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 2: You hear that Anderson, I'm older, I'm the pack leader. 168 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 1: She's like, OK, you haven't proven it. She's like another 169 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: treat human. I wrote most this script with my dog 170 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: laid on my lap or running around barking at things 171 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 1: that he's not supposed to bark at, aka being perfect. Yes, 172 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 1: wolves do fight other wolves. This is actually the leading 173 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: cause of death for wolves, whoops. But they don't fight 174 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 1: inside their own pack. They fight for territory, and this 175 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 1: part I thought was kind of cool. The packs that 176 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 1: win the most are the packs of the oldest wolf, 177 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 1: not the packs with the most wolves, because the elders 178 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 1: are calmer and wiser, and they're like, oh, we don't 179 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 1: actually we shouldn't fight. That's a bad idea when they 180 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 1: would otherwise lose. So yeah, now, I want you to guess, Sophie, 181 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 1: how many people are killed by wolves every year in 182 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:29,559 Speaker 1: the United States? 183 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 2: Really? None? 184 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's the correct guess. 185 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 2: Oh is that actually none? 186 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 1: Yeah? That's how many people are killed by wolves in 187 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 1: the average year in the United States. In the past 188 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:44,320 Speaker 1: twenty years, wolves have killed exactly one person. 189 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:49,199 Speaker 2: I bet that. I'm like, I bet that person did 190 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 2: it dumb? 191 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 1: I think she was just like hanging out in like 192 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 1: backwoods Alaska and someone was. 193 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 2: A real high you had me at Alaska. 194 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, in twenty ten in Alaska, wolves killed somebody. Domestic 195 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 1: dogs kill thirty to fifty people a year. 196 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:12,559 Speaker 2: That is so low, actually, I was expecting higher number. 197 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of people are attacked by dogs, right, 198 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 1: and we're going to talk a lot about stray dogs 199 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 1: and stuff like that on this episode. But what if 200 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: we break to a listical of what animals kill the 201 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 1: most people? Because that's what I wrote. 202 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 2: Let's do it then. 203 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 1: All right, okay, so what animals kill the most people 204 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:39,839 Speaker 1: in the United States. The answer is, honestly, no, wild 205 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 1: animals kill enough people to merit any actual worry. But 206 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:48,719 Speaker 1: deer top the list. Oh shit, bam be you know, 207 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:52,680 Speaker 1: and this one's it's messy because deer do occasionally like 208 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 1: gore people and trample people. But I think most of 209 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: these lists include people who die in car accidents caused 210 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 1: by deer right right, right, so I don't know exactly. 211 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:06,199 Speaker 1: And then stingy fuckers that's the technical term, like bees 212 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 1: and wasps and shit. They're next. They kill on average 213 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 1: fifty six people a year. 214 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:12,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean allergies and things like. 215 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 1: It's yeah, it's almost entirely allergic people. 216 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. 217 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 1: Dogs are number three, cows number four. They take out 218 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:21,559 Speaker 1: about twenty people a year. 219 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 2: Dude, I would think cows would be so much higher. 220 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 2: I don't know why, but I think, but I think 221 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 2: cows are just like out here, trampling, I know whatever. 222 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 1: I like to see a cow. I'm always like, I'm 223 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:33,680 Speaker 1: so glad you haven't figured out what you could do 224 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 1: if you wanted to know. 225 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 2: All they would have to do is sit, Yeah, totally, 226 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 2: Oh my god, and let people are under their uh 227 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:48,960 Speaker 2: you know, easel sit death. Yeah. 228 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:56,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, if any cows are listening fully endorsed murder, well, 229 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:58,960 Speaker 1: it's not really, it's self defense, honestly for a cow to. 230 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 2: Kill personally cows alone. 231 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:03,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, spiders are next. 232 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm allergic to them. They try to kill me 233 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 2: at least three times a year. 234 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 1: Okay, fair enough, don't become one of the seven that 235 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 1: they succeed with. Yeah, snakes only five people a year, 236 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:19,680 Speaker 1: which is interesting because something like six again, I didn't 237 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 1: write this number down is off the top of my head. 238 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 1: From my memory from writing this, something like six to 239 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:25,559 Speaker 1: seven thousand people are bit by venomous snakes every year. 240 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:27,319 Speaker 2: Are we just good at science? 241 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 1: Yeah? More or less. It's like, do you just get 242 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:33,600 Speaker 1: to the emergency room and you'll probably be okay. So 243 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 1: if you get bit by a venomous snake, don't freak out. 244 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 1: Just get the fuck to the emergency room. Don't try 245 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:38,840 Speaker 1: and suck the poison out. 246 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:41,559 Speaker 2: So I'm just gonna assume if our healthcare system was 247 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 2: better that it would be none. 248 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems completely possible, especially now that like there's 249 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 1: better backwoods rescue technology like satellite communicators and stuff. Bears, 250 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 1: especially grizzly bears, kill about four people a year, I believe, 251 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: mostly in Alaska, and specifically they tend to kill people 252 00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 1: who they who thought they were being friends with the. 253 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 2: Bear, Like I said, a stupid. 254 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, alligators kill one person a year, sharks kill someone 255 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 1: every two years. Mountain lions kill someone about every four 256 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:15,959 Speaker 1: years or so. So now you know, watch out for deer. 257 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 1: Don't worry about wolves. It's literally just not worth worrying about. 258 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 1: You ever watch Alone? M I watched like the first 259 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 1: season of Alone, and there's like the person who's like, 260 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:30,839 Speaker 1: here's a wolf and is like, they didn't let me 261 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 1: bring a gun. I gotta go home. It's just not safe, 262 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 1: and just like you fucking anyway, So don't worry about wolves. 263 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:42,559 Speaker 1: But we're not here to talk about wolves. We're here 264 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 1: to talk about dogs. Dogs aren't wolves. They're closely related cousins. 265 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 1: You said, yeah, yeah, they have the same I guess 266 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:52,680 Speaker 1: they make them siblings, right if they have the same parent, 267 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 1: the plasticine. 268 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 2: Wolves, Yeah, I guess. So. Yeah. 269 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 1: So the answer about how they were domesticated and when 270 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 1: and where is we don't know. 271 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 2: It's my favorite kind of history. 272 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot of there's a lot of guesses, 273 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 1: and a lot of the guesses are backed up by evidence, 274 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 1: and so I'm gonna I'm gonna go through best current knowledge, 275 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 1: as best discovered by Margaret. What we do know is 276 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 1: that dogs are the first domesticated animal. What probably didn't happen, 277 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 1: And it's like always always the way I sort of 278 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 1: was told to envision it. It's not that like humans 279 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 1: like captured some wolves and were like hunt for us, buddy, 280 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 1: and then like consciously bred them for docility or some shit. 281 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 1: You know. What is much more likely, infinitely more likely, 282 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 1: is something called commensalism, which I had never heard of before. 283 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 2: Because I have no idea what that is. 284 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: So, you know how like in like you know how, 285 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: like high school science has betrayed us all because it 286 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: tells us and we think we know everything, we actually 287 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 1: know nothing. In high school science, I learned about parasitis, parasitism, 288 00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 1: and symbiosis, right, Commensalism is something different, is sort of 289 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 1: in between the two. It is where one species gets 290 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 1: benefits from another species while neither helping nor hindering the 291 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 1: other species. So it's just like an animal like a 292 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 1: raccoon digging through your trash can, especially if it like 293 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 1: doesn't leave a mess somehow, is not a parasite, right 294 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 1: because it doesn't damage the host. It is a commensal, 295 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 1: commensial commensal. I'm going to go with that, relationship, and 296 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 1: so probably a long ass time ago, most likely currently 297 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 1: suspected in Siberia or Southeast Asia, until more recently people 298 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 1: are thinking mostly East Asian Southeast Asia, and now people 299 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: are leaning a little bit more towards Siberia, and I'm 300 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 1: sure it'll change. A bunch of wolves were like, hell yeah, 301 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: we can eat the food that humans throw out, and 302 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 1: they started hanging out near the humans, or it might 303 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: have even been hell yeah, we can prey on the 304 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 1: animals that eat the food that humans throw out. Right, 305 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 1: and the calmer wolves were able to do better in 306 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 1: proximity to the humans since they didn't run away as much. 307 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 1: And so these les fearful less human aggressive wolves, they 308 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: evolved physically. Their snouts shortened and they ended up with 309 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 1: fewer teeth. They were doing less of the killing themselves basically, 310 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 1: and soon, Honestly, my suspicion is like right away, but 311 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 1: I don't know, No one really knows. As soon this 312 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:22,239 Speaker 1: commensalism moved to mutualism, which is another word for symbiosis 313 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: that is technically different. And I spent a while trying 314 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 1: to read about the difference. I'm just gonna use the 315 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 1: word mutualism, where both species gain advantages, and there's so 316 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 1: many advantages having wolves around probably was part of the 317 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 1: direct hunting, right the wolves now dogs would corner prey 318 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: for humans to finish off, just like how people hunt 319 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 1: with dogs today. And or and this is like even 320 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 1: more certain or guessed upon, is that they protected the 321 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 1: kill from other predators, right because as soon as you 322 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 1: like bring down a mammoth, all the other animals were like, yo, 323 00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 1: what's up? Can I have some of that? And you 324 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 1: got all these wolves around being like, no, the fuck 325 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 1: you can. You can't have any of it. That's for 326 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:06,920 Speaker 1: the humans and me, you know. And also you can 327 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 1: sleep soundly at night because you're campus surrounded by fucking wolves. 328 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 1: And I would argue, and this is my own hypothesis 329 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:17,719 Speaker 1: that emotional support wolf was probably just as important as 330 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:18,920 Speaker 1: anything else right from the start. 331 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 2: Exactly. Yeah, who doesn't want the comforting feeling of a 332 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 2: wolf in their. 333 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 1: Life, because like this is only like somewhere between thirty 334 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 1: to forty thousand years ago when they became dogs, So 335 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 1: probably you're going back tens or hundreds of thousand years 336 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 1: before that, but you're still talking about Homo sapiens. You're 337 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 1: still talking about us. You're talking about someone that could 338 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:45,480 Speaker 1: fucking be raised in our society and be a normal 339 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 1: person in our society right now. So if you take 340 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 1: one of us and they're and a wolf nearby dies, 341 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: and there's all these wolf puppies and they're like, oh no, 342 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 1: what will we do without our mother? Like as cute 343 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 1: as shit? 344 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I guarantee they also needed unconditional love 345 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 2: back then. 346 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, totally. We all need unconditional love, which leads 347 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:10,679 Speaker 1: me to my statement. Humans and dogs belong together, always 348 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 1: have both are better for it. Yes, that, and this 349 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 1: is the thing that like, it wasn't a violent controlling act. 350 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:20,120 Speaker 1: It's not the destruction of the wildness of the animal. 351 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:24,639 Speaker 1: Dogs were domesticated long before the widespread practice of agriculture also, 352 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:28,639 Speaker 1: which I thought was kind of interesting. And again we 353 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: don't know exactly when, but we know that modern DNA 354 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: science stuff suggests that the evolutionary deviation from regular wolves 355 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 1: started forty to three thirty thousand years ago, around the 356 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 1: time that the ice age was at its iciest, when 357 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 1: we probably needed each other the most. Frankly and the first, Yes, 358 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 1: we are one hundred percent certain this is a modern 359 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:53,480 Speaker 1: dog entirely. This is a dog, right, is the remains 360 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 1: of a little guy who died and was buried with 361 00:18:55,119 --> 00:19:00,160 Speaker 1: his people fourteen two hundred years ago in what's now Germany. 362 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 1: There's more that dogs offer us to quote from The 363 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:07,439 Speaker 1: New Yorker, the Ajibwe people, a North American indigenous group, 364 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 1: say that the wolf was given to the first human 365 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 1: as a companion. They see wolves as mentors to humans, 366 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 1: modeling how to behave in a social group and how 367 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 1: to behave while hunting. And this is like particularly interesting 368 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:18,880 Speaker 1: when you think about the fact that the alpha wolf 369 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 1: thing is absolute garbage and actually, yeah, it actually probably 370 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 1: was decent modeling for people. You know. It's also hypothesized 371 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 1: that are packed with dogs is how we out competed 372 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:35,880 Speaker 1: the Neanderthals. Basically, we are really good at hunting with dogs. 373 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 1: It's like fucked up. It's like just a cheat code, right, 374 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:41,679 Speaker 1: you know. You're like, you go chase the thing and 375 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:44,439 Speaker 1: corner it. I've got the pointy stick. I'll kill it 376 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 1: once you've got its back against a wall, you know, Yeah, okay, 377 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:49,879 Speaker 1: and then the weirdest one I ran across. And this 378 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:53,720 Speaker 1: might not be true, but it is hypothesized by a scientist, 379 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 1: the reason we have whites in our eyes might be 380 00:19:56,320 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 1: because we hunt with dogs. The selera the like the 381 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 1: white of the eye is not white in most animals, 382 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:07,360 Speaker 1: and it is white in dogs, and it is white 383 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 1: in humans, and it is white in very few other primates. 384 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 1: Like there's individual primate to have it, but it's not 385 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 1: like a species wide trait in any other primate as 386 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 1: far as I can tell. To quote the Guardian, the 387 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 1: wolf possesses white celera, as does Homo sapiens, though crucially 388 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: it is the only primate that has them. And then, 389 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 1: according to author Pat Shipman, who's quoted in the same 390 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 1: Guardian article, the main advantage of having white celera is 391 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: that it is very easy to work out what another 392 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: person is gazing at. It provides a useful form of 393 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: nonverbal communication and would have been an immense help to 394 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:42,440 Speaker 1: early hunters. They would have been able to communicate silently 395 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:46,439 Speaker 1: but very effectively. And it is possible and is this 396 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 1: author Pat's hypothesis that we have alled white celera because 397 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:50,879 Speaker 1: we hunted with our dogs. 398 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, I do. I do always say that Anderson has 399 00:20:54,400 --> 00:21:01,679 Speaker 2: my eyes, so yeah, and says I am correct. 400 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, wherever dogs were first domesticated. Wherever their people went, 401 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:10,200 Speaker 1: they went, and soon you have four distinct haplogroups, which 402 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:12,480 Speaker 1: is not a term I really understand, but basically subtypes 403 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 1: of dogs and dogs just went everywhere. They went across 404 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:19,880 Speaker 1: the land bridge into North America. And there's all kinds 405 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 1: of arguments about whether some specific types of canines are 406 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:24,639 Speaker 1: really dogs or come from the same place, etc. But 407 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:26,359 Speaker 1: this is the gist of it. This is the gist 408 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 1: of dog existence spread and this is not meant as 409 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:35,439 Speaker 1: a slight Two cats, they started being domesticated, probably in 410 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:38,440 Speaker 1: Western Asia around ten thousand years ago. It seems likely 411 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:40,400 Speaker 1: that the thing that the cats sort of offers they 412 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:42,920 Speaker 1: prey on the rodents that eat grain stores and such. Right, 413 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:47,399 Speaker 1: but today is a dog day. We're talking about stray dogs, 414 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 1: especially we're talking about riot dogs. But first there's more context. 415 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 2: But before you get to that context, do you know 416 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 2: what time it is? 417 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:09,120 Speaker 1: Time to learn what's good for us to exchange money for? 418 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 2: Well? I thought it would be fun because I feel 419 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 2: like a lot of the listeners listening to this episode 420 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 2: will like dogs. You give some for the adreaks to 421 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 2: recommend some of my favorite dog products. Oh okay, as 422 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 2: the official sponsor and if anything else comes up, it 423 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 2: is wrong. Okay, I want to recommend these these Anderson's 424 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 2: really smart and she really liked and we used to 425 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 2: live in a really tiny apartment a yard to run 426 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 2: in or anything like that, and I got recommended these 427 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:49,679 Speaker 2: Nina autoson puzzles and you can hide dog treats or 428 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:51,879 Speaker 2: whatever snacky in there and they have to like figure 429 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 2: out and Anderson would spend you know, twenty minutes or 430 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:58,360 Speaker 2: ten minutes or its pretty smart, so like two minutes 431 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 2: sniffing through and opening and figuring out how to do 432 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 2: the puzzle. And it's really good for dog brains and 433 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 2: is fun. So yeah, I would like to plug the 434 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 2: Nina Ottison puzzles. 435 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 1: Hell yeah, and then whatever this other stuff is and 436 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 1: we're back. So there are stray dogs, and there are 437 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 1: feral dogs, or as they're sometimes called to try and 438 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 1: make them more technical sounding, free range unowned dogs. I 439 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:36,880 Speaker 1: don't think anyone actually calls them that, except like articles. 440 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 1: Most dogs in the world are free range, unowned dogs. 441 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 1: I didn't realize this. Less than a quarter of all 442 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 1: dogs are pets with specific caretakers. Across a lot of 443 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 1: the world. Dogs are more likely to be sort of 444 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:53,399 Speaker 1: owned by the community, if they're owned at all, like 445 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:57,679 Speaker 1: the village or just yeah, sometimes there's nobody. These dogs 446 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,479 Speaker 1: tend to be commensal, like not just the ones who 447 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 1: are owned by community, but the dogs that are unowned 448 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:05,440 Speaker 1: or whatever. They live off trash and such, right, going 449 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,960 Speaker 1: back to their roots, and stray dogs or dogs that 450 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 1: start off living with some people. Feral dogs have generally 451 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:16,399 Speaker 1: never had a person who they're paying attention to. I 452 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:18,919 Speaker 1: hate them. It's funny. I feel like, I'm like, I 453 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:23,639 Speaker 1: hate the word like owned with my dog, Rentraw is 454 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,400 Speaker 1: my dog, right, I think the possessive pronoun makes sense, 455 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 1: and so I don't mind saying that, but I hate 456 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:32,200 Speaker 1: being like, I'm Rentraw's owner, and I'm like, eh, whatever. 457 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 2: See, I'm Anderson's human and she, yeah, she more. She 458 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,120 Speaker 2: definitely is in charge here. 459 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 1: So yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. So both stray and 460 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:51,200 Speaker 1: feral dogs both live lives where they tend to avoid 461 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 1: or occasionally attack people. They're usually presented as a problem 462 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 1: for the human community and that they live in proximity to, 463 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 1: but not always, And that's actually gonna come up a 464 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 1: couple times in this week's story. Sometimes the community cares 465 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 1: for these dogs. Sometimes they kill these dogs. Sometimes they 466 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 1: do a combo move where they care for some of 467 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 1: them and kill other ones. And we're going to talk 468 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:12,440 Speaker 1: about that in a bit. Unfortunately, that'll be the sad 469 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:13,960 Speaker 1: part of the days episode. 470 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:15,960 Speaker 2: But first warn me about this. 471 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, we're going to talk about them, not right now, 472 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:21,280 Speaker 1: I'll be a little bit later. We are going to 473 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 1: talk about the way in which society deals with stray dogs. 474 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 1: Most of the individual dogs in this episode do very well. Okay, 475 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 1: let's talk about a famous and this is a thing. 476 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:37,879 Speaker 1: This gets presented as famous. I'd never heard about this 477 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 1: in my life. You ever heard of Bummer and Lazarus. 478 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:43,639 Speaker 1: You're a California person? 479 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, like yes, but no, if that makes sense, 480 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 2: like darling, but but yeah, I don't know. Yeah, what 481 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:56,159 Speaker 2: you got for me? 482 00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,679 Speaker 1: There is a famous duo famous in the stray dog world, 483 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,399 Speaker 1: Bummer and Lazarus. All the straight dogs and now these dogs. 484 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:06,640 Speaker 1: They lived in San Francisco in the eighteen sixties from 485 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:07,360 Speaker 1: Los Angeles. 486 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:09,160 Speaker 2: I don't know about San Francis is the same thing. 487 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,959 Speaker 1: It's a California. It's one state. How big could it be? 488 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 1: Two New Jerseys? 489 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 2: It's large and in charge. 490 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 1: Three Rhode Islands. 491 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 2: I guess. 492 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. If the state is as big as like four 493 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 1: Road Islands, I guess I could imagine. Not knowing the 494 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 1: other side of it, it's. 495 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:29,919 Speaker 2: Like the fourth or fifth largest economy in the world. 496 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:34,880 Speaker 1: Yeah. Actually turns out, well, it's going to come up. 497 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,200 Speaker 1: California is outsized economy even in the eighteen sixties, is 498 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:39,399 Speaker 1: going to come up in today's story. 499 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 2: Cool. 500 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,639 Speaker 1: So this is decades before San Francisco burned to the ground. 501 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 1: There are a lot of street dogs in nearby Los Angeles. 502 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 1: Ever heard of it? Yeah, it's the whole country. Straight. 503 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 1: Dogs there outnumbered people two to one in the eighteen forties. 504 00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:59,440 Speaker 2: Man, I wish that was true when I live there. 505 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 1: Well, except that everyone was poisoning them with Stryck nine 506 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:04,200 Speaker 1: all the time. 507 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 2: Oh well, Margaret, you should have led with that. 508 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 1: Okay. Some dogs figured out a way to avoid the 509 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 1: strick nine, which was by pleasing people by killing rats 510 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:17,199 Speaker 1: and so like kind of like coming out ahead on 511 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 1: like I'm a stray dog, and I might like fight 512 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,119 Speaker 1: your sheep, but you know what, I kill rats, and 513 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 1: people are like all right, So these dogs, the ratters, 514 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:29,399 Speaker 1: sometimes they get spared and loved, which brings us to Bummer. 515 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:34,119 Speaker 1: Bummer was a Mutts mutt medium sized, half Scottish terrier 516 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 1: half I'm quoting a nineteen oh one article that is 517 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 1: going to mention a breed that I Google does not 518 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:45,919 Speaker 1: know anything about half Japanese snubnosed poodle. Yeah, that's what 519 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:47,119 Speaker 1: one newspaper article. 520 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 2: And let's be honest, it probably was none of those things. 521 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 2: It was probably just a dog. 522 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was just a dog. Absolutely. Another book says 523 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 1: that it was a Newfoundland mutt. It's just a dog. 524 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 1: It's also not nearly the size of anything Newfoundland's shaped. Yeah, anyway, 525 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 1: months are the best. Yes, Bummer was born in Petaluma 526 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,120 Speaker 1: and then came with this guy, a journalist named Ned Knight, 527 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 1: into the city and then somehow ended up astray. So 528 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 1: I hope that Ned died because that is the only 529 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:22,439 Speaker 1: reasonable reason that his dog became astray. And otherwise fuck him. 530 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: One of Bummer's ears. 531 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:25,200 Speaker 2: It was like it was like I was like, you're 532 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 2: waiting for you to say it, because it's in the 533 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 2: script to he said, Yeah, like, Ned, I hope you died. 534 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 2: Otherwise fuck you. 535 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 1: One of Bummer's ears was shorter than the other. Maybe 536 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 1: it was cut, maybe it had been bitten. He is 537 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 1: an ugly little guy. He started hanging out. I mean 538 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: this in only positive ways. He started hanging out in 539 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,480 Speaker 1: front of the saloon and killing rats and begging for scraps. 540 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 1: And he lived a lonely life until until eighteen sixty one, 541 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,600 Speaker 1: a year after he'd found his station, he saw another 542 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 1: medium dog in trouble, under attack by a larger dog. 543 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 1: Incomes bum drives off the larger dog, David versus Goliath. 544 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 1: But it was too late. This other dog, he was 545 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 1: fucked up, caught in the leg, not expected to live. 546 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 1: Bummer nursed him back to health, brought him food, cuddled 547 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 1: with him for warmth in the cold streets. Thus was 548 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 1: born Lazarus, his companion for years, and the two dogs 549 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 1: begged together and ratted together and just hung out in 550 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 1: front of the saloon. And everyone loved them. Yeah, they 551 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 1: were famous. There's a really funny reason why they were famous. 552 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 1: Every newspaper was writing about them, every journalist. Every journalist 553 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 1: was like exaggerating their personalities or inventing new ones whole cloth. 554 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 1: Like there'd be like gossip rag stuff about them, you know, 555 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 1: because the bar that they hung outside of was the 556 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 1: journalist's cafe that all the journalists hung out at. 557 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 2: So they were like the first dog influencers. 558 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, totally, Bummer and Lazarus the first dog influencers, and 559 00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 1: political cartoons would feature them. One day, Bummer survives this 560 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 1: to be clear. One day someone shot Bummer in the leg. 561 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 2: Who the fuck shot Bummer in the leg? 562 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know. I hope they died 563 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 1: and Lazarus went off to beg with another dog in 564 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 1: the meantime, and the newspapers were furious. What in gratitude? Right? 565 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 1: But then the wound healed and Lazarus returned Bummer forgave 566 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 1: him and back they went to it. One time they 567 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,720 Speaker 1: stopped a runaway horse and so they were heroes. One 568 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 1: time they killed, like I forgot to write this in 569 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 1: a script. They killed like eighty rats in twenty minutes 570 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:37,400 Speaker 1: or some crazy shit, just like just fucked ton of rats. 571 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 1: And anyway, but so their heroes. The newspapers are writing 572 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 1: about them because there's nothing else happening in the first 573 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 1: half of the eighteen sixties in the United States. That's newsworthy. 574 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 1: I got like most of the way through this, and 575 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 1: I was like, ah la, la la eighteen sixty three. 576 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 1: I was like, I think there was bigger things happening. 577 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 2: I was like, that's so cute. They're giving NewSpace to 578 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,880 Speaker 2: these little dogs, the dog influencers. 579 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 1: Yeah. 580 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 2: Completely forgetting the date, yeah, yeah. 581 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 1: To be clear, eighteen sixty one to eighteen sixty five 582 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,400 Speaker 1: was the American Civil War. California wasn't connected to the 583 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:16,960 Speaker 1: rest of the country by railroad yet, so in many 584 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,160 Speaker 1: ways it was isolated. That came in eighteen sixty nine. 585 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 1: The Transcontinental Telegraph was brand new as of eighteen sixty one. 586 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: But Californians did do a bunch of anti slavery fighting. 587 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 1: Thousands of Californians joined regiments out east, and then California's 588 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 1: gold was crucial to the war effort, and they also 589 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 1: went and helped prevent the slave Empire of the Confederacy 590 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:44,040 Speaker 1: from taking Arizona, New Mexico. So California did did hold 591 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 1: its own that that collection of four New Jersey sized 592 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 1: area or four Rhode Islands right anyway in eighteen sixty two. Sorry, no, 593 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 1: I did get it right, but I wrote it wrong 594 00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 1: in the script I wrote nineteen sixty two in the script, 595 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:00,720 Speaker 1: but I'm going to say eighteen sixty because that's when 596 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 1: this happened. A new dog catcher was doing the rounds 597 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 1: and picked up Lazarus because Lazarus was astray. An angry 598 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 1: mob forced the guy to let Lazarus go, and the 599 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,320 Speaker 1: city declared that the pair were exempt from the laws 600 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 1: against strays because they were the people's heroes. They were 601 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 1: still dogs, I was gonna say, because they're dog os. Yeah, exactly, 602 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,720 Speaker 1: there are still doggos. Bummer used to kill sheep and 603 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 1: get into fights with the other dogs. That might have 604 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 1: been when I got shot on the leg. I don't know. 605 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 1: Both was innocent, Yeah, I support him even if he's innocent. 606 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:38,920 Speaker 1: And both of them used to trash shops that they 607 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 1: would like, go wander into a shop and then it 608 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 1: would get locked up behind them, right because the day 609 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 1: would end and the person wouldn't notice that the strays 610 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:47,960 Speaker 1: had gotten in, so they would just trash the shop. 611 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:52,520 Speaker 1: But I would too if I was locked inside it anyway, 612 00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 1: and then that all dogs eventually come to an end. 613 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 1: One day in eighteen sixty three, someone poisoned Lazarus and 614 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 1: his second death stuck Bummer was inconsolable. In eighteen sixty five, 615 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 1: he died as well. A drunk kicked him so hard 616 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 1: that he lasted only a few more days. The drunk 617 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 1: was arrested, and once he was in jail, his cellmate 618 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 1: found out what he did and then quote popped him 619 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:26,800 Speaker 1: on the smeller. So at least there was some kind 620 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 1: of both. 621 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 2: The problem was, you know, like like it's the same 622 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,200 Speaker 2: thing as like you go to see a dog movie. 623 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 2: You know how it ends. 624 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 1: I know, I'm sorry, I know how it ends. 625 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 2: But also like did did? Did? Who poisons a dog? 626 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:45,160 Speaker 2: Who kicks a dog? The fuck is wrong with these people? 627 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 1: I agree? 628 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 2: Despicable. I just read the next sentence. Oh my god. 629 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:57,120 Speaker 1: What so bummer was eulogized by Mark Twain, but in 630 00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 1: a weird, mean spirited way. 631 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's Mark Twain for you. I know. 632 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:02,960 Speaker 1: At first I was like in a quote as eulogy, 633 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:08,439 Speaker 1: and then I was like, whatever, fuck Mark Twain. Both 634 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,400 Speaker 1: the dogs were taxidermied and put on display in the saloon. 635 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:12,759 Speaker 2: Yeah. 636 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:14,320 Speaker 1: I don't know whether it's I don't know how I 637 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 1: feel about that one. 638 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:16,279 Speaker 2: I don't enjoy that. 639 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,719 Speaker 1: Eventually they would donated to a museum that eventually it 640 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 1: gets written as destroyed what was left of them, But honestly, 641 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:25,879 Speaker 1: I'm gonna go with put them to rest. And there's 642 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 1: a plaque up about them now which ends with quote 643 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,680 Speaker 1: two dogs with but a single bark, two tales that 644 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:36,640 Speaker 1: wagged as won. They were good dogs, beautiful I know, 645 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 1: I know, and they were the first news. I mean, 646 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 1: I'm sure there's other news. 647 00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:43,200 Speaker 2: Straight a dog influencers. 648 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:47,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think a context. I wanted to lead 649 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 1: with the dogs, but there's some interesting humans in San 650 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:52,160 Speaker 1: Francisco during this time. 651 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 2: And I think it just stopped with San Francisco. 652 00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:59,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is the era of San Francisco eccentrics. Most 653 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:03,920 Speaker 1: FA was this guy Joshua Abraham Norton aka Emperor Norton, 654 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:07,680 Speaker 1: who I didn't think I was gonna whatever quite make 655 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:10,359 Speaker 1: his way into cool people, but actually, after reading about him, 656 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,680 Speaker 1: I think he qualifies on his own. In eighteen fifty nine, 657 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:18,319 Speaker 1: this man, who was essentially penniless, declared himself Norton, the 658 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 1: first Emperor of the United States. He's a very San 659 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 1: Francisco figure. He was an immigrant. He's a white guy 660 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 1: born in England, raised in South Africa. This is why 661 00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 1: he soa San Francisco. In my mind, he was a 662 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 1: real estate speculator and commodities trader who lost everything in 663 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:39,720 Speaker 1: some rice market speculation shit. So he declared himself himself Emperor, 664 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:44,600 Speaker 1: and people were like, yeah, all right, whatever, And he 665 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,400 Speaker 1: wore a uniform with a fancy hat and fancy feathers 666 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 1: the Emperor. Basically, I wish we still treated eccentrics this way. 667 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 1: He was granted free ferry rides and train rides because 668 00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,279 Speaker 1: after all, he's the Emperor of the United States. Police 669 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 1: officers saluted him as he walked by doing his rounds, 670 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,120 Speaker 1: quote inspecting the streets and sidewalk, which is what he 671 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,080 Speaker 1: spent most of his days doing Businesses he went to 672 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:12,960 Speaker 1: would accept currency with his name on it, People gave 673 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:16,560 Speaker 1: him food. Some people actually assumed he was rich, but 674 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:20,680 Speaker 1: he was poor as fuck. He lived in a boarding house. 675 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 1: People sold souvenirs with his face on it. So it's 676 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:25,640 Speaker 1: like kind of a weird trade where basically, like the 677 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 1: city made a ton of tourism dollars off of their 678 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:33,279 Speaker 1: like guy who called himself emperor. You know, at one 679 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:35,920 Speaker 1: point he called up the army to declare war on Congress, 680 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:39,319 Speaker 1: but oddly enough, no one came, he did make some 681 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 1: good laws, or these might be apocryphal. People argue about 682 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,239 Speaker 1: what he said. According to a potentially apocryphal story, he 683 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:49,799 Speaker 1: announced that anyone who called San Francisco Frisco would be 684 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,680 Speaker 1: fine twenty five dollars, which is almost six hundred dollars today. 685 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:57,560 Speaker 1: I'm okay with that law coming back. I think it's 686 00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:01,919 Speaker 1: just needlessly petty, and you known have laws. He also 687 00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:05,040 Speaker 1: demanded that religions weren't allowed to fight each other. And 688 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:08,400 Speaker 1: the thing that I found that is not apocryphal that 689 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:10,200 Speaker 1: I dug in a bunch about and why he's a 690 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,920 Speaker 1: cool person doing cool stuff, is that he tried his 691 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:18,719 Speaker 1: hardest to leverage his weird fame to fight against anti 692 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:22,680 Speaker 1: Chinese racism in San Francisco. He used the two tools 693 00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:25,799 Speaker 1: at his disposal. One the newspapers like to publish his 694 00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:29,960 Speaker 1: eccentric proclamations, and two that people let him speak at 695 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,759 Speaker 1: pretty much any meeting. So for a decade he wrote 696 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:36,960 Speaker 1: proclamation saying that Chinese folk should be treated with respect. 697 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,919 Speaker 1: This is like, during a big, huge let's be even 698 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,080 Speaker 1: more racist to Chinese immigrants than people are today. You know. 699 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:48,280 Speaker 1: Then in eighteen seventy eight, a crowd of racist union guys, 700 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:50,360 Speaker 1: because another thing that keeps coming up on this episode 701 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:52,240 Speaker 1: is that there's a lot of bastards who are union guys. 702 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,600 Speaker 1: A bunch of them were forming planning on some let's 703 00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:59,080 Speaker 1: call them murder riots, which was a common enough thing 704 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:01,840 Speaker 1: in the racist Bay Area at the time. So he 705 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 1: showed up and he stood on a box and he 706 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:05,799 Speaker 1: was like, hey, let me speak on the Emperor, and 707 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:07,799 Speaker 1: then the racist Irish guy in charge of the mob 708 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:09,840 Speaker 1: was like, okay, yeah, you're the Emperor, you could speak 709 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:12,360 Speaker 1: and basically he was like, as Emperor, I command you 710 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,960 Speaker 1: all to go home. And it didn't work. But the 711 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,400 Speaker 1: fact that this guy just walked right into this angry 712 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:20,840 Speaker 1: group of thousands of dudes to be like, shut the 713 00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:22,440 Speaker 1: fuck up and stop being racist. 714 00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:25,440 Speaker 2: It's cool people who did cool stuff. 715 00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:28,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, And the tie to Bummer and Lazarus is that 716 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,320 Speaker 1: in cartoons he was always presented as the owner of 717 00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:36,400 Speaker 1: Bummer and Lazarus because they became they're all like characters. 718 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:38,120 Speaker 1: And this, actually, I mean, it gets into some stuff 719 00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:40,839 Speaker 1: that like, it's bad when we make animals mascots, it's 720 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,160 Speaker 1: even worse when we make humans mascots, especially people who 721 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,880 Speaker 1: are nerd divergent, right, But he gets presented as the 722 00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:49,160 Speaker 1: owners of the Bummer and Lazarus, and this is not true, 723 00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:51,919 Speaker 1: but it fits the vibe at the time. He died 724 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:54,800 Speaker 1: in eighteen eighty and some rich businessmen paid for his funeral. 725 00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:59,320 Speaker 1: Equally popular at the time, but not remembered so clearly today. 726 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:03,720 Speaker 1: One final ex centric was Frederick Coombs, sometimes called George Washington. 727 00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:07,120 Speaker 1: The second he told people he was George Washington. He 728 00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:10,800 Speaker 1: was also a phrenologist. He walked around measuring people's skulls. 729 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:12,960 Speaker 1: I kind of like, don't like this guy. He wore 730 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,040 Speaker 1: a Revolutionary War uniform because he was George Washington, and 731 00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:18,440 Speaker 1: he had a public beef with Emperor Norton, and eventually 732 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:21,480 Speaker 1: he fled to New York City. His argument was that 733 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:23,799 Speaker 1: Edbur Norton doesn't like me because I'm successful with all 734 00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:26,680 Speaker 1: the ladies. And he spent the rest of his days 735 00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:29,800 Speaker 1: trying to sell people photographs of himself visiting Benjamin Franklin's 736 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:33,120 Speaker 1: grave and says, I like Norton so much because he 737 00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:36,400 Speaker 1: spent his all of his fame trying to stop racism. 738 00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:39,759 Speaker 1: I've just like decided that Frederick Coombs is the heel 739 00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:42,200 Speaker 1: in this story, but I have no information about that. 740 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:46,120 Speaker 1: I don't know in pristia, I don't know. These are 741 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:49,719 Speaker 1: just exceptions or society used to treat like sort of 742 00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:52,360 Speaker 1: public neurodiversion figures who don't have any money differently and 743 00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:55,840 Speaker 1: more kindly than they do. But yeah, that's Bummer and Lazarus. 744 00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:59,920 Speaker 1: Let's talk about dogs, and let's get to the saddest 745 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:01,600 Speaker 1: part of all week. 746 00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:03,800 Speaker 2: All right, let's do ads first. 747 00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:07,479 Speaker 1: Okay, with that, people totally listen to these ads. They'll 748 00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:09,200 Speaker 1: be so excited, on the edge of their seat, can't 749 00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:11,040 Speaker 1: wait to come back. Okay, what's the thing I like 750 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:14,680 Speaker 1: for my dog? I really like having a hands free leash. 751 00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:17,680 Speaker 1: I go hiking with rentron all the time. I don't 752 00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:20,439 Speaker 1: it's funny. I don't know what brand leash I have, 753 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:23,120 Speaker 1: but when I go hiking see. 754 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:24,320 Speaker 2: A really good ones. Yeah. 755 00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:29,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's great being able to hike with him hands free, 756 00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:32,200 Speaker 1: and I recommend it. 757 00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:36,239 Speaker 2: Don't forget to bring water for your dogs on hikes. 758 00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:42,560 Speaker 1: Yeah. I use a little collapsible bowl and Rentraut mostly 759 00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:46,840 Speaker 1: ignores it unless he's really thirsty. Here's some other ads. 760 00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:53,760 Speaker 1: We're back and we're going to talk about how society 761 00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:56,080 Speaker 1: treats animals, which. 762 00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:00,840 Speaker 2: I don't like the subtitle for the section the script, 763 00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:02,400 Speaker 2: but go off. 764 00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:05,200 Speaker 1: This subtitle is euthanasia. 765 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:06,360 Speaker 2: This. 766 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:09,520 Speaker 1: Doing this research changed my opinion about some stuff in 767 00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:16,200 Speaker 1: really interesting ways. So in that I've learned more about 768 00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:19,400 Speaker 1: mora alternatives that other countries have developed to euthanasia. I 769 00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:20,880 Speaker 1: was like going to just like leave that there, and 770 00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:22,120 Speaker 1: then I was like, people are going to think that 771 00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:24,600 Speaker 1: I've like anyway, So most of our heroes are straight 772 00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:28,560 Speaker 1: dogs this week. Generally speaking, straight dogs are seen as 773 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:32,439 Speaker 1: a problem for people. Some ungodly high percentage of humans 774 00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:35,360 Speaker 1: who get rabies get rabies from dog bites. It's like 775 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:37,520 Speaker 1: more than ninety percent. Bats are, like, I think, the 776 00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:40,320 Speaker 1: only other thing that comes anywhere near it, and rabies 777 00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:44,200 Speaker 1: fucking sucks. Rabies just kills you unless you run quick 778 00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:46,120 Speaker 1: as hell to get a rabies vaccine as soon as 779 00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:49,240 Speaker 1: your bit. It as one hundred percent mortality without treatment. 780 00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:52,359 Speaker 1: The first person to survive rabies without a vaccine was 781 00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:54,560 Speaker 1: a kid in two thousand and four who is bit 782 00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:57,680 Speaker 1: by a bat, and so doctors. 783 00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:02,200 Speaker 2: I remember this, Yeah, because there's a big, very Yeah, 784 00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:04,799 Speaker 2: this is a huge story that I haven't thought about 785 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:05,919 Speaker 2: since two thousand and four. 786 00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:09,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, wow, this kid gets bit by a bat, does 787 00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:12,040 Speaker 1: not get the like, doesn't realize that it's a problem, 788 00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:13,920 Speaker 1: so it doesn't immediately go get that. I think it's 789 00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:18,879 Speaker 1: called prophylactic when you get the vaccine afterwards, and yeah, 790 00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:21,680 Speaker 1: it starts getting sick and they the doctors put her 791 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:24,319 Speaker 1: into a medically induced coma and her body fights off 792 00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:28,080 Speaker 1: the disease on its own. More people have survived using 793 00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:31,560 Speaker 1: this method now, but it's like not a lot more people. 794 00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:33,920 Speaker 1: The most recent article I found about ten years ago 795 00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:36,800 Speaker 1: and they were like the third person to survive rabies. 796 00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:42,280 Speaker 1: You know, So rabies is really fucking bad and stray 797 00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:45,440 Speaker 1: dogs are really good at spreading rabies. Yea, even when 798 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:47,960 Speaker 1: they're not rabid. Packs of wild dogs are not always 799 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:51,080 Speaker 1: safe to be around, especially for children, especially for elderly people, 800 00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:55,120 Speaker 1: and it is a it is a social issue, right. 801 00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:57,960 Speaker 1: There are a bunch of different ways of different countries 802 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:00,520 Speaker 1: try to deal with the problem of stray dogs. There's 803 00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:03,320 Speaker 1: two main ones, and I think that they provide I 804 00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:05,600 Speaker 1: think it provides important context because we're talking about straight 805 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:07,120 Speaker 1: dogs and what they face and what they deal with 806 00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,760 Speaker 1: the US and a lot of other countries just kill them. 807 00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:15,480 Speaker 1: You can dress it up in a lot of different ways. Overall, 808 00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:17,759 Speaker 1: strays are taken to shelters. They're given as sort of 809 00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:21,680 Speaker 1: limbo period to see if anyone claims them or adopts them, 810 00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:25,080 Speaker 1: and then they're euthanized. This is generally supported as the 811 00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:28,640 Speaker 1: best and most humane practice. Literally, the Humane Society does it, 812 00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:33,920 Speaker 1: as does PETA. I like the only group I want 813 00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:37,000 Speaker 1: to like say like, this pisses me off. It pisses 814 00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:40,200 Speaker 1: me off that PETA does it because PETA's whole thing 815 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:45,200 Speaker 1: is like humans should need animals, which I've been vegan 816 00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:46,920 Speaker 1: for allen on twenty one years, twenty two year or 817 00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:48,800 Speaker 1: something like that. I don't think that it's wrong for 818 00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:52,919 Speaker 1: humans to eat animals. It really annoys me that someone 819 00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:57,839 Speaker 1: who takes that stance is gonna say, like, well, we 820 00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:00,759 Speaker 1: just euthanize animals and that's fine, because it's like, in 821 00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:04,279 Speaker 1: my mind is like pick one. 822 00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:04,200 Speaker 2: And there's a lot of hypocrisy. 823 00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:08,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think it's necessarily hypocritical for other people 824 00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:11,239 Speaker 1: who care about animals to try and deal with this problem. 825 00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:15,160 Speaker 1: But I whatever, I'm going to try not to moralize 826 00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:18,000 Speaker 1: too much about this. It is the accepted method that 827 00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:20,279 Speaker 1: I grew up in a society that I have used 828 00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:24,160 Speaker 1: this as the accepted method. There's no good statistics available, 829 00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:27,920 Speaker 1: but the main statistic that is cited is that as 830 00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:30,320 Speaker 1: of two thousand and eight, three point seven million cats 831 00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:32,480 Speaker 1: and dogs or euthanized a year in the United States. 832 00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:36,319 Speaker 1: The US doesn't have a stray dog problem to the 833 00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,560 Speaker 1: same degree as some other countries. So in some ways 834 00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:43,120 Speaker 1: you could say that this works sort of. I want 835 00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:46,879 Speaker 1: to compare it to a different strategy that doesn't sort 836 00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:50,239 Speaker 1: of work, that actually just works or has worked for 837 00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:53,680 Speaker 1: both the Netherlands in Germany, they have two different attitudes. 838 00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:57,759 Speaker 1: In twenty twenty two, the Netherlands declared itself the first 839 00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:00,800 Speaker 1: country in those stray dogs. They did it without euthanasia. 840 00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:03,319 Speaker 1: They did it by setting up a program called collect newter, 841 00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:08,000 Speaker 1: vaccinate in return, which does what it says on the tin, like, 842 00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:11,960 Speaker 1: that's what they do. They collect, they newter, they vaccinate, 843 00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:15,319 Speaker 1: and then they return the animal to the streets. They 844 00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:18,240 Speaker 1: also put a massive tax on store and breeder bought dogs. 845 00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:19,960 Speaker 1: I think this isn't nationwide. I think this is like 846 00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:24,919 Speaker 1: municipalities do this. So rescue at dogs are the thing right, 847 00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:28,400 Speaker 1: you want a rescue animal. Everything else is kind of 848 00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:35,239 Speaker 1: frowned upon socially and crazy expensive. Yeah, and finally they 849 00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:38,440 Speaker 1: set up a sort of animal cop force, not not 850 00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:43,640 Speaker 1: like dogs who are cops, but people who police basically 851 00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:46,360 Speaker 1: people who go around and find people who abuse dogs 852 00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:49,719 Speaker 1: and then like get them in trouble, right, putting like 853 00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:51,240 Speaker 1: massive fines go ahead. 854 00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:53,640 Speaker 2: I would say, that's the first time I've heard somebody 855 00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:55,240 Speaker 2: use the word cop in a good way. 856 00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:59,720 Speaker 1: No, it's very like, it's very it's super interesting. Yeah, 857 00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:04,040 Speaker 1: And so you create this environment where animal abuse is 858 00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:10,799 Speaker 1: taken seriously, throwing out animals is taken very seriously, and 859 00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:15,480 Speaker 1: every stray animal is sterilized and vaccinated so they're not 860 00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:17,440 Speaker 1: going to be rabid and they're not going to reproduce, 861 00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:23,160 Speaker 1: so you you just don't have to kill them, and 862 00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:27,320 Speaker 1: it just makes sense that it works. Yeah. 863 00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:30,400 Speaker 2: I mean, sure, the Netherlands is a much smaller country, 864 00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:33,400 Speaker 2: and it's a much smaller population than the United States, right, 865 00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:38,480 Speaker 2: But even in that, in that smaller scale, it's quite impressive. 866 00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:42,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. Germany is the other country. It's funny 867 00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:48,319 Speaker 1: because in twenty two Netherlands declared itself the first nation 868 00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:52,000 Speaker 1: with those stray dogs. Germany is like ahead of them 869 00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:56,760 Speaker 1: and does it slightly differently, but had worse branding. Yeah. Probably, 870 00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:00,000 Speaker 1: Germany is just like, we don't want to declare ourselves 871 00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:04,160 Speaker 1: number one on anything. Is this bad? Yeah, we're only 872 00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:06,719 Speaker 1: number one in self depreciation these days. It's the only 873 00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:12,560 Speaker 1: thing we're the best at. So Germany has a slightly 874 00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:15,600 Speaker 1: different attitude, but not incredibly different attitude. There's no euthanasia 875 00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:17,960 Speaker 1: for healthy dogs allowed, it is. 876 00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:21,320 Speaker 2: I'm glad that Germany is taking no EUTHANASI stance. 877 00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:27,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is illegal for stores to sell pets. Breeding 878 00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:31,680 Speaker 1: dogs requires extensive certification. There's like buying a dog from 879 00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:35,399 Speaker 1: a breeder costs thousands of dollars, So getting a pet 880 00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:38,600 Speaker 1: from a shelter is the way to do it unless 881 00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:41,080 Speaker 1: you have very specific needs like oh I need the 882 00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:43,680 Speaker 1: following kind of hunt and dog or whatever. Right, Their 883 00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:46,880 Speaker 1: shelters have adoption rates upwards of ninety percent as a result, 884 00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:49,880 Speaker 1: whereas like, I looked it up, but I've done rat 885 00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:52,640 Speaker 1: in the script, it's like less than a quarter of 886 00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:56,160 Speaker 1: in the US, unadopted dogs live in the shelters for 887 00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:58,360 Speaker 1: the rest of their life. This is the main difference 888 00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:01,400 Speaker 1: between them and the Netherlands and other countries. Is that 889 00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:03,480 Speaker 1: the dogs are never put back on the streets. They 890 00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:06,759 Speaker 1: live in the shelters, and that is financed by the government, right, 891 00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:11,000 Speaker 1: It's subsidized by the government. And if you're caught abandoning 892 00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:14,200 Speaker 1: your pet, you get a twenty five thousand euro fine. 893 00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:15,080 Speaker 2: That's dope. 894 00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:17,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I'm not saying this would magically work in 895 00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:20,480 Speaker 1: the US, right. We have a lot of very different 896 00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:23,879 Speaker 1: things going on culturally, but slowly building a culture where 897 00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:25,839 Speaker 1: it's like like there's this thing in the US where 898 00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:29,359 Speaker 1: people are like, oh, I'm going to make money. I mean, one, 899 00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:33,160 Speaker 1: everyone's poor, right, because the US is fucked, and since 900 00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:36,080 Speaker 1: everyone's poor, they're like, well, I'm gonna I have this 901 00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:38,479 Speaker 1: thing that can possibly make me money. If I don't 902 00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:40,719 Speaker 1: get my dog fixed, it can make more dogs, and 903 00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:43,520 Speaker 1: I can sell those dogs. And that is like what 904 00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:45,879 Speaker 1: a lot of people choose to do because of their 905 00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:49,400 Speaker 1: financial situation, and then they abandon those dogs because they 906 00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:51,040 Speaker 1: can't sell them, right, or they can only sell like 907 00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:52,920 Speaker 1: one out of ten, or you know whatever. 908 00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:56,799 Speaker 2: Just to say though, like, I feel like there has 909 00:48:56,880 --> 00:49:01,200 Speaker 2: been a shift where there used to be pet stores 910 00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:05,280 Speaker 2: that had dogs available in their stores and puppy mills 911 00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:07,839 Speaker 2: and things like that. Specifically, when I was growing up, 912 00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:11,320 Speaker 2: there were stores at malls that they had these puppy mills. 913 00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:15,040 Speaker 2: That doesn't exist. I mean we probate it like childhood, 914 00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:19,719 Speaker 2: me protested and things like that. Yeah, but these things existed, 915 00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:22,680 Speaker 2: and now for the most part, there's still breeders. There's 916 00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:24,760 Speaker 2: still things like that. But I would say puppy mills 917 00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:31,400 Speaker 2: and dogs for sale at stores is very it's the outside, 918 00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:35,040 Speaker 2: it's very it's outlier in the situation. Would you agree. 919 00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:39,000 Speaker 1: I think you're probably right. Like, I haven't thought about it. 920 00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:40,840 Speaker 1: I used to think about puppy mills and stuff like 921 00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:43,600 Speaker 1: that when I was first getting involved in politics and stuff, 922 00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:44,840 Speaker 1: and I haven't thought about it in a while, so 923 00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:46,839 Speaker 1: I haven't like looked. But you know, you're right. I'm 924 00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:48,760 Speaker 1: not used to like walking into a store and seeing 925 00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:51,720 Speaker 1: the cage full of dogs anymore. 926 00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:54,759 Speaker 2: And yeah, yeah, I mean there used to be like 927 00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:57,839 Speaker 2: actual like brick and mortar stores that that is all 928 00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:00,200 Speaker 2: they sold were puppies and they were in these like 929 00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:04,560 Speaker 2: little hamster containers that were just horrible, and it was 930 00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:09,440 Speaker 2: uh yeah, but you know, I mean, most people, most 931 00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:12,640 Speaker 2: people are able to adopt not shop at this point. 932 00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:16,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and I and I will say one of 933 00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:18,520 Speaker 1: the things that my parents did right, They had a 934 00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:20,799 Speaker 1: lot of things right. My parents are great. Uh, they 935 00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:24,160 Speaker 1: raised me right. All of our pets were rescues. That 936 00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:28,480 Speaker 1: was it was never a consideration. That's how you get 937 00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:32,040 Speaker 1: You take care of things that need help, you know. 938 00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:32,439 Speaker 2: Yeah. 939 00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:37,319 Speaker 1: But yeah, uh okay, I'm gonna close out today with 940 00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:41,240 Speaker 1: another highlighting of the sadness of the US system. 941 00:50:41,320 --> 00:50:44,040 Speaker 2: Cool, cool, cool, Let's tell a funsie at the end. 942 00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:48,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, a little little little I swear Wednesday's episode fucking 943 00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:51,839 Speaker 1: all hits. It's gonna be so it's all up hill 944 00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:52,319 Speaker 1: from here. 945 00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:54,319 Speaker 2: Fuck yeah. 946 00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:56,920 Speaker 1: So I want to talk about some hero straight dogs. 947 00:50:57,640 --> 00:50:59,359 Speaker 1: So a bunch of straight dogs are hanging out US 948 00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:01,760 Speaker 1: Army base and Sghanistan. Three of them were named Sasha, 949 00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:05,879 Speaker 1: Target and Rufus. In twenty ten, in February, a man 950 00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:08,720 Speaker 1: tried to suicide bomb the base. The three dogs attacked 951 00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:10,720 Speaker 1: the man. He couldn't get past them, so he detonated 952 00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:16,319 Speaker 1: himself early. The dogs saved fifty soldiers' lives. The US 953 00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:19,280 Speaker 1: should not have invaded Afghanistan, but fuck the Taliban also, 954 00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:24,759 Speaker 1: so whatever, I understand people's whatever. Yeah, this is not 955 00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:28,120 Speaker 1: a morality tale, that part of it. Sasha died from 956 00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:31,280 Speaker 1: her wounds from the blast, but Rufus and Target survived 957 00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:33,640 Speaker 1: and were nursed back to health by the soldiers, and 958 00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:36,719 Speaker 1: they were heroes. Soldiers pulled strings to adopt them and 959 00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:38,279 Speaker 1: get them sent back to the US where they could 960 00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:40,319 Speaker 1: live with them. They went through all the red tape 961 00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:43,920 Speaker 1: in order to do it. They appeared on Oprah, you know, 962 00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:44,480 Speaker 1: with their dog. 963 00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:47,160 Speaker 2: Oh yeahrah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I definitely have seen this 964 00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:51,040 Speaker 2: a friend of behind the Bastard's Oprah Winfrey. 965 00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:54,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, uh did you hear how that ended? 966 00:51:56,800 --> 00:51:59,280 Speaker 2: Is it bad? No? I only got I only remember 967 00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:00,440 Speaker 2: the good dog stuff. 968 00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:05,960 Speaker 1: So Target escaped from his yard in Arizona. Briefly animal 969 00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:07,680 Speaker 1: control picked him up and euthanized him. 970 00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:12,640 Speaker 2: Fucking Arizona. What the fuck is wrong with you? This 971 00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:16,120 Speaker 2: is super fucked up. Yeah, you don't do that. 972 00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:19,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's what I like. 973 00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:23,160 Speaker 2: Fucking America, what a horrible place. I know. 974 00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:27,080 Speaker 1: It was like, I love that these dogs risked their 975 00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:29,279 Speaker 1: life to defend the people who took care of them, 976 00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:33,600 Speaker 1: who they cared about, you know, And and the individual 977 00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:38,640 Speaker 1: soldiers didn't betray them the country. 978 00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:40,560 Speaker 2: That the yeah them with death. 979 00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:47,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, and Oprah yeah too, equally bad. I don't actually 980 00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:49,560 Speaker 1: watch Oprah, but I have heard enough behind the bastards 981 00:52:49,600 --> 00:52:53,799 Speaker 1: to have a sense. But when we come back on Wednesday, 982 00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:57,360 Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about really good dogs, all of whom 983 00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:01,239 Speaker 1: lived good lives, loved by the people they loved, none 984 00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:05,480 Speaker 1: of whom die violently or by like unhealthy used in Asia, 985 00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:10,440 Speaker 1: you know, mutualistic protection between protesters and dogs. Because when 986 00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:13,360 Speaker 1: we come back, we're gonna talk about riot dogs. 987 00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:18,120 Speaker 2: I'm so excited. Do you have a a good Rentros 988 00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:22,480 Speaker 2: story to lighten the mood before we exit this episode? 989 00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:27,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, let's see. So today I'm staying with someone who 990 00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:33,120 Speaker 1: is trying to milk a goat, and Rentroll, with absolutely 991 00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:37,040 Speaker 1: no training, loves herding sheep and goats more than he 992 00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:42,239 Speaker 1: loves his own life. Yeah, and so he struggles a 993 00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:46,040 Speaker 1: little bit, watching calmly while the goat is being milked. 994 00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:48,759 Speaker 1: But then when the goat got away, the goat is 995 00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:53,600 Speaker 1: new to being milked, and it is for the goats, 996 00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:57,480 Speaker 1: like the goat recently had a smaller goat and whatever. Anyway, 997 00:53:58,280 --> 00:54:00,200 Speaker 1: and Rintrew runs around and so as soon as the 998 00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:03,560 Speaker 1: goat got away, let Rintroll go, and Renshaw went and 999 00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:06,120 Speaker 1: got the goat back or helped get the goat back. 1000 00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:09,759 Speaker 1: I don't know. I like watching him do his thing. 1001 00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:11,040 Speaker 1: It makes me really happy. 1002 00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:14,600 Speaker 2: He's so smart and he's so sweet. Yeah. We were 1003 00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:20,279 Speaker 2: together recently and rentro Introt does not like cars. Yeah, no, 1004 00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:22,719 Speaker 2: understandably so a lot of dogs on like cars, and 1005 00:54:22,719 --> 00:54:26,120 Speaker 2: it's because of the vibrations. But as we were sitting there, 1006 00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:29,840 Speaker 2: I realized there was a pattern with Rentrot that I 1007 00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:33,600 Speaker 2: thought was really fucking cool. Rin Trot only barked at 1008 00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:37,000 Speaker 2: like the traditional gas cars. Ryntroll never barked at the 1009 00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:40,000 Speaker 2: electric or the hybrids. Yeah, it was so fascinating. Obviously 1010 00:54:40,040 --> 00:54:42,640 Speaker 2: it's because there's like some difference in sound or whatever. Yeah, 1011 00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:46,120 Speaker 2: but I think that's pretty fucking cool. Rentrot is cool 1012 00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:47,400 Speaker 2: dog who does cool stuff. 1013 00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:51,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, he's always yelling. Industrial society has had some consequences. 1014 00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:54,000 Speaker 1: We need to talk about them. 1015 00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:54,879 Speaker 2: I love him. 1016 00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:58,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, me too, And we'll come back and we'll talk 1017 00:54:58,200 --> 00:54:58,920 Speaker 1: about more dogs. 1018 00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:02,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess this is the time. 1019 00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:07,399 Speaker 1: Oh plugs right, Yeah, Sophie the guest, what do you got, 1020 00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:08,400 Speaker 1: what do you feel like plugging? 1021 00:55:09,520 --> 00:55:11,720 Speaker 2: I would like to plug my very good friend Jimmy 1022 00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:15,160 Speaker 2: Loftus's new book Raw Dog, which if you're listening to 1023 00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:18,520 Speaker 2: this on Monday, comes out tomorrow, so pre order, and 1024 00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:22,080 Speaker 2: if you're listening to this beyond Monday, it is officially 1025 00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:24,680 Speaker 2: out as of me twenty third, so check out Jimmie 1026 00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:28,360 Speaker 2: social media to figure out where to purchase or request 1027 00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:30,719 Speaker 2: it at your local library. Thank you. 1028 00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:35,120 Speaker 1: I am kickstarting a tabletop role playing game called p 1029 00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:38,400 Speaker 1: Number City, and I will be It will be kickstarting 1030 00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:41,919 Speaker 1: all June in twenty whatever year. It is currently twenty 1031 00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:45,480 Speaker 1: twenty three, and if you go now I think this 1032 00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:48,240 Speaker 1: comes out before June, and you search PA Number City Kickstarter, 1033 00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:50,520 Speaker 1: you'll be able to sign up for announcements on the 1034 00:55:50,600 --> 00:55:52,279 Speaker 1: very first day of it, on June first. It's going 1035 00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:54,560 Speaker 1: to be twenty percent off the print book. We're going 1036 00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:57,000 Speaker 1: to make the PDFs and stuff as cheap as we 1037 00:55:57,040 --> 00:56:00,239 Speaker 1: can so that people can play without running a bunch 1038 00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:03,719 Speaker 1: of money or whatever. But the print books should be beautiful. 1039 00:56:03,719 --> 00:56:05,440 Speaker 1: And I've been working on this tabletop role playing game 1040 00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:08,080 Speaker 1: for like fucking ten years, and two or three years 1041 00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:10,000 Speaker 1: ago finally got together with a really good team of 1042 00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:11,799 Speaker 1: people who can do the things that I can't do, 1043 00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:14,960 Speaker 1: including tell me that I'm not in charge. And it's 1044 00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:19,719 Speaker 1: actually a collective effort and it's really fun and I'll 1045 00:56:19,719 --> 00:56:25,400 Speaker 1: be pit plugging it all the next couple weeks. And 1046 00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:31,719 Speaker 1: also go regular order Jamie Loftus's book Raw Dog. Yeah, 1047 00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:34,840 Speaker 1: it's about hot dogs. If you like history and common. 1048 00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:37,160 Speaker 2: There's a dog theme, but it's not the dog that 1049 00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:38,160 Speaker 2: we discussed today. 1050 00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:44,040 Speaker 1: It's more sadness, at least with comedy. Yeah, and we'll 1051 00:56:44,040 --> 00:56:44,840 Speaker 1: see you all Wednesday. 1052 00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:50,760 Speaker 2: Bye. Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production 1053 00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:54,080 Speaker 2: of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, 1054 00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:57,239 Speaker 2: visit our website cool Zonemedia dot com or check us 1055 00:56:57,280 --> 00:57:00,680 Speaker 2: out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 1056 00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:09,120 Speaker 2: get your podcasts. H