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Speaker 1: All right, this topic for today has come up in

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Speaker 1: my life again for some reason in multiple ways recently,

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Speaker 1: and I just keep finding myself saying to others, oh,

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Speaker 1: I did a podcast about that. So before I get

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Speaker 1: to that podcast, I kind of wanted to give you

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Speaker 1: guys some backstory on some of my personal experiences with

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Speaker 1: the topic of narcissism and gaslighting. I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: talk about the specifics, like in the instances of those

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Speaker 1: specific relationships, because that's actually not really even the point,

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Speaker 1: which is shocking to say out loud, because I used

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Speaker 1: to think that it really was, but it's not. The

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Speaker 1: bigger picture for me is always about identifying how this

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Speaker 1: has shown up in my life, what my responses or

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Speaker 1: reactions are, and if they need to change in the future,

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Speaker 1: and how to just avoid harmful relationships moving forward. So

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Speaker 1: it's hard to look anywhere these days without saying the

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Speaker 1: words narcissism or gaslighting. I'm sure you guys can understand

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Speaker 1: that if you're on any sort of social media platform,

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Speaker 1: it's literally everywhere with all the constant messaging we're getting

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Speaker 1: about these two terms. I have to say that one

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Speaker 1: of the most helpful things for me was understanding that

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Speaker 1: these what these behaviors are, but then also understanding that

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Speaker 1: all of these things exist on a scale. So just

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Speaker 1: because you're experiencing a certain behavior one time with someone

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean they're a person with full blown narcissistic personality

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Speaker 1: disorder or an only manipulative type gas lighter. We all

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Speaker 1: actually probably exhibit certain traits that fall under this umbrella

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Speaker 1: at certain times because as humans, our brains are just

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Speaker 1: wired for survival. We talk about that a ton on

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Speaker 1: this podcast, So control or being in control often feels

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Speaker 1: like the only way to survive, and when we feel

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Speaker 1: out of control, there's definitely a possibility in all of

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Speaker 1: us that we may exhibit just not the best behaviors.

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Speaker 1: We're all human, obviously, I love to say that, and

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Speaker 1: none of us are perfect. So this podcast has really

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Speaker 1: helped me to begin learning the difference between someone I

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Speaker 1: could approach about that behavior that felt harmful to me,

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Speaker 1: or just behavior in general that felt harmful to me,

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Speaker 1: or times when I needed to make amends even for

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Speaker 1: my out of flye behavior like the behavior on my part,

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Speaker 1: and also seeing the people are identifying the people who

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Speaker 1: would just never get it that I needed to walk

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Speaker 1: away from and stop trying to reason or explain with

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Speaker 1: after all, as they say, you just simply cannot reason

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Speaker 1: with crazy. I had a friend say to me the

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Speaker 1: other day, I hear about being gas lit all the time,

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Speaker 1: but I actually have no idea how to recognize it myself.

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Speaker 1: And then her statement got me thinking about my own

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Speaker 1: experiences and how much understanding these concepts and mostly understanding

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Speaker 1: what it looked what I looked like. Let me say

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Speaker 1: that again, mostly understanding what I looked like and acted

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Speaker 1: like when I was dealing with this kind of behavior

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Speaker 1: that has truthfully changed my life and my relationships. Understanding

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Speaker 1: that I always look like a different version of myself.

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Speaker 1: I don't look like the version of myself that's living

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Speaker 1: her best life or in a happy, healthy place. It

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Speaker 1: definitely has an impact on me that has now become

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Speaker 1: super identifiable to me. Obviously, I'm not a therapist, so

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Speaker 1: because of this, this is a really sensitive topic and

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Speaker 1: this is actually a massive form of psychological abuse. So

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to sit here because I don't feel

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Speaker 1: fully comfortable naming these things for others or saying, well,

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Speaker 1: this is exactly what it's going to look like, because

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Speaker 1: it really does look very different for different people. However,

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Speaker 1: I have experienced these kind of narcissistic and abusive relationships,

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Speaker 1: so I wanted to tell you guys what it's looked

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Speaker 1: like for me. And then if you feel like you're

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Speaker 1: identifying something in your own life, maybe this is the

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Speaker 1: place to go. Seek out an actual expert who can

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Speaker 1: help identify if that's what's happening for you. I think

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Speaker 1: psychological abuse is a really tough one to recognize because

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Speaker 1: in my experience, it's very slow, so it's not until

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Speaker 1: later when you're looking back that you can often identify

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Speaker 1: it for what it is. And in case you are confused,

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Speaker 1: the reason that I'm tying the two topics together of

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Speaker 1: gaslighting and narcissism is because gaslighting is a huge tactic

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Speaker 1: for narcissistic types and just abusive relationships in general. So

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Speaker 1: let's get to basics. I'm gonna do just the definition

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Speaker 1: of gaslighting. Really. I found this great article on prevention

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Speaker 1: dot com and I'll link that in the description of

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Speaker 1: this podcast. But here's the definition they gave for gaslighting.

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Speaker 1: Gaslighting is often used as a way to gain or

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Speaker 1: maintain control over someone else. Gaslighting is the act or

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Speaker 1: practice of misleading someone, especially for one's own advantage. That's

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Speaker 1: according to Miriam Webster Dictionary, it can happen in just

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Speaker 1: about any situation, from personal relationships to the workplace. Aaron Wiley,

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Speaker 1: who is an LPCC executive director of the Willa Center,

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Speaker 1: describes gaslighting as a psychological strategy to create confusion in

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Speaker 1: a person so that they end up feeling as if

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Speaker 1: they are to blame for the problems in a relationship.

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Speaker 1: You may have recognized gaslighting behavior but never knew the signs.

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Speaker 1: This form of manipulation may leave you feeling weary about

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Speaker 1: your own thoughts and feelings. Gaslighting happens continually over time,

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Speaker 1: so the victim typically starts to doubt themselves, believe an

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Speaker 1: alternative truth, and even wonder if they are losing their minds.

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Speaker 1: Gas Lighters will almost always invalidate your feelings. You may

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Speaker 1: feel emotionally and physically drained following interactions with them. I

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Speaker 1: have to say, reading those definitions, that was exactly how

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Speaker 1: it's played out in my life. So let's talk about

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Speaker 1: the impacts, because I really think that that was the

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Speaker 1: thing that helped me identify what was happening to me

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Speaker 1: when it was happening. According to that same article. Gaslighting

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Speaker 1: generates or exacerbates anxiety or depression. For me, this is

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Speaker 1: just my personal experience. But when I'm in an unhealthy relationship,

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Speaker 1: I just question myself a lot. That's the main overall

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Speaker 1: feeling is confusion, which isn't what most people would think,

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Speaker 1: but it does feel that way. I wake up every

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Speaker 1: day just kind of doubting my own thoughts. And what

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Speaker 1: I've realized now is I'm a super intuitive human and

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Speaker 1: so if I'm doubting myself and not able to tap

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Speaker 1: into that intuition, something is not right. That can look

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Speaker 1: like having trouble making decisions for myself without seeking advice

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Speaker 1: of someone else telling me what to do. In my life,

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Speaker 1: it was just kind of having this feeling of not

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Speaker 1: being able to see clearly, like walking around in a fog.

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Speaker 1: My body will feel like it has one feeling, and

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Speaker 1: then I spend most of the time trying to talk

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Speaker 1: it out of that feeling. So it's like my mind

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Speaker 1: and my body almost go to war with each other.

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Speaker 1: I no longer do that in my life because that

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Speaker 1: minimization of my own feeling and listening to someone else

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Speaker 1: over myself, it begins to turn you into a shell

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Speaker 1: of a human truthfully, and things that should be deemed

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Speaker 1: normal for day to day functioning, it just becomes very

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Speaker 1: difficul I would feel almost anxious all the time, and

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Speaker 1: then that can kind of turn into like low levels

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Speaker 1: of depression or you find yourself using coping mechanisms and

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Speaker 1: it's just never a fully productive or happy life for me.

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Speaker 1: The things that I would deem red flags when I've

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Speaker 1: moved forward, when I've moved out of these places that

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about, these shells of being a human and

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Speaker 1: into this new place with relationships and looking at relationships differently.

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Speaker 1: The things that I look for now as red flags

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Speaker 1: are lack of accountability to take ownership or accountability for

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Speaker 1: actions that caused harm. So if someone cannot apologize or

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Speaker 1: work to make or repair after a relationship rupture, massive

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Speaker 1: red flag to me. And then if everything is made

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Speaker 1: to look like only my fault, it's just never only

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Speaker 1: one person's fault. And if you can't have a conversation

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Speaker 1: within a relationship without it just being put on just you,

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Speaker 1: if that's like the over common theme of most conversations,

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Speaker 1: that's a major red flag to me. The other red

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Speaker 1: flag for these narcissistic or gaslighting type relationships. It's just

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Speaker 1: a lack of empathy or care for how things impact

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Speaker 1: other human beings. So if it's just behaviors keep happening,

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Speaker 1: even if you're expressing yourself and saying, hey, that hurt me,

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Speaker 1: and there doesn't seem to be an understanding of why

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Speaker 1: that matters. Massive red flag. At the end of all

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Speaker 1: of this, I really think it becomes really difficult for

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Speaker 1: people to gaslight and manipulate us if we have a

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Speaker 1: true connection with ourself. That was my issue in the past,

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Speaker 1: Like as much as I thought I knew myself or

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Speaker 1: was in relationship with myself, I truly wasn't. My relationship

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Speaker 1: with myself was broken or maybe it just wasn't even

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Speaker 1: fully formed yet. And specifically, because I'm also this sensitive,

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Speaker 1: empathetic type, I can become very susceptible to these types

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Speaker 1: of relationships. So yes, like I really do think it's

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Speaker 1: important look for all the signs, educate yourself on these behavior,

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Speaker 1: specifically if you feel like you're feeling this in your

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Speaker 1: own life right now, or you have a repeated pattern

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Speaker 1: in the past of these kind of relationships. But even

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Speaker 1: more importantly for me, the healing has come for me

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Speaker 1: learning to just trust my own intuition above all else,

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Speaker 1: and whenever I feel confused, anxious, or fully or just

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Speaker 1: full of self doubt, getting really quiet with myself and

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Speaker 1: getting to the root of if that is really coming

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Speaker 1: from me or is that someone else's voice in my

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Speaker 1: head making me question myself constantly. So again, like I said,

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Speaker 1: if you're in a relationship that might you know, seem

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Speaker 1: to be pinging some of these boxes or checking some

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Speaker 1: of these boxes, or you just want to learn more

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Speaker 1: about these topics. Some of these topics I'm going to

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Speaker 1: link a couple of handles that have helped me. On

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Speaker 1: social media, we have so much access. Like as much

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Speaker 1: as I hate social media and I talk a lot

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Speaker 1: of shit about it, I'll be honest, there is so

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Speaker 1: much access to real experts that really know what they're

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Speaker 1: talking about and can help you get even a base

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Speaker 1: understanding of these topics. So, doctor Romney is a great

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Speaker 1: one for narcissism. The secure relationship is a really great

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Speaker 1: account for just back and forth conversations with people and

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Speaker 1: then understanding their capacity because of it, Like, are you

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Speaker 1: able to do some of the things that I said above?

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Speaker 1: Are you seeing some of the red flags if you

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Speaker 1: find yourself operating from some of these red flag behaviors,

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Speaker 1: Like she really breaks down ways to approach conversations differently.

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Speaker 1: It's just really helpful. Anxious Hearts Guide, Heart Guide, who

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Speaker 1: I've had on the podcast, is a great one for relationships,

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Speaker 1: man talks, and then Mindful MFT and I will put

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Speaker 1: all of these in the description of this podcast. Like

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Speaker 1: I said, but I also wanted to repost one of

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Speaker 1: my favorite conversations of all times, which is the one

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Speaker 1: that even got this whole intro started. But I did

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Speaker 1: a podcast this was actually a couple of years ago

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Speaker 1: now with doctor Keith Campbell. He is a PhD and

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Speaker 1: narcissism expert, and he's the first person to write about

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Speaker 1: the sliding scale of narcissism. So it just really helps

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Speaker 1: me to understand when those traits are like really dangerous

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Speaker 1: or if they're just a part of something in a

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Speaker 1: person that could change or evolve. He was so so helpful. Again,

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Speaker 1: we were kind of at the beginning stages of this

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Speaker 1: conversation being so it just feels so widespread now and

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Speaker 1: I think it's it's a really tricky thing when that

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Speaker 1: starts to happen, because it starts to become like who

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Speaker 1: do you trust with being the actual experts and who's

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Speaker 1: just labeling everyone a narcissist and making it not a

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Speaker 1: workable situation anymore. So here's my conversation with doctor Campbell.

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Speaker 1: I hope you guys enjoy, and you can always email

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Speaker 1: me at the Edge at velvet Seedge, y'all calm if

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Speaker 1: you have more questions, or you can leave us a

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Speaker 1: voicemail on the link in my bio on Instagram. I'm

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Speaker 1: at Velvet's Edge and that is a quick way to

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Speaker 1: just ask a question via voice. It's all anonymous. We'll

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Speaker 1: never expose you, guys, I promise, and I love hearing

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Speaker 1: the voicemails from you guys, so keep those all coming.

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Speaker 1: Here's our conversation. This is Kelly Henderson and you are

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Speaker 1: listening to the Velvet Edge podcast. My guest this week

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Speaker 1: is doctor Keith Campbell, who is a nationally recognized expert

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Speaker 1: on narcissism. His work in lectures expose the rise of

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Speaker 1: narcissism and its everyday influence on every level of society.

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Speaker 1: His new book, The New Science of Narcissism talks about

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Speaker 1: the new spectrum that researchers are using to now measure narcissism,

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Speaker 1: saying that just because you have traits, it doesn't mean

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Speaker 1: you are a full blown narcissist. So we talked through

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Speaker 1: the overuse of the word as a description for things

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Speaker 1: like ex boyfriends or coworkers who are selfish or jerks, maybe,

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Speaker 1: but they're not full blown narcissists. So what is that

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Speaker 1: versus what are traits that are actually narcissism, and even

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Speaker 1: what parts of narcissism may actually help you in our culture.

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Speaker 1: It turns out we all fall somewhere on the scale,

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Speaker 1: and we broke down the role things like celebrities, social media,

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Speaker 1: and even reality TV in the rise of narcissism in America.

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Speaker 1: Here's our conversation. Okay, so I've found you because I

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Speaker 1: don't remember exactly what I was reading, but there was

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Speaker 1: an article talking about the overuse of the word narcissism

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Speaker 1: now and how you know, in our culture, we're kind

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Speaker 1: of like, I have this tendency to be like, oh

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Speaker 1: my ex is such a narcissist, you know, I have

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Speaker 1: this tendency to just associate the people I've dated in

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Speaker 1: the past with narcissists. And while they may be, what

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Speaker 1: I found so fascinating with what you're saying is that

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Speaker 1: there's a spectrum out there. And so I want to

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Speaker 1: kind of talk a little bit about that today and

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Speaker 1: just kind of our society's association with the word narcissism.

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Speaker 1: But could you start with just giving everyone kind of

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Speaker 1: a grand scale definition of the word narcissism.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. And I said, what you're telling me

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Speaker 2: is something I've heard, you know, from other people as well,

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Speaker 2: and it's the idea that we use the term narcissism

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Speaker 2: and we're kind of using it for gjoratively. It's you know,

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Speaker 2: it's about the X, and it's usually kind of negative,

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Speaker 2: and it's usually saying the person sort of we use

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Speaker 2: it like a jerky, maybe selfish jerk. Yes, So like,

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Speaker 2: how the xa's just kind of a narcissist, I'm over it.

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Speaker 2: What does that mean? Well, he's kind of a selfish

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Speaker 2: jerk and cheated on me versus he was just sort

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Speaker 2: of nice and boring and I just nailed on them also,

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Speaker 2: So the narcissist you kind of get an idea across,

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Speaker 2: but it's not very it's not very detailed. And in

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Speaker 2: the in the world of psychology, the world of research

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Speaker 2: where love we have this like a more expansive definition

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Speaker 2: of narcissism and to capture some of these ideas that

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Speaker 2: I'll just go through it and stop me if I'm

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Speaker 2: too boring at any point. Okay, but we talk about

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Speaker 2: narcissism first, is a trait, and that means that people

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Speaker 2: exist on a spectrum or continuum from sort of high

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Speaker 2: levels to low levels, and most people are sort of

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Speaker 2: in the middle. And when we talk about narcissism, we

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Speaker 2: really use two different We use two different terms, and

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Speaker 2: what most people are using is when they talk about narcism,

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Speaker 2: it's talking about what we call grandiose narcissism, which is

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Speaker 2: this this narcissism that has imagine that having a sense

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Speaker 2: of entitlement and thinking you're special and important, maybe not

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Speaker 2: being super empathetic with people, but also being outgoing and

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Speaker 2: confident and extroverted and maybe charismatic and maybe likable or

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Speaker 2: energetic when you first meet the person. And so when

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Speaker 2: you take this combination of kind of entitlement and self

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Speaker 2: importance but also likability and extroversion, and you get this

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Speaker 2: kind of iron Man character with a Tony Stark character

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Speaker 2: or politician character can be it can be something that's

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Speaker 2: that's very likable. So this grandiose narcissism with the trait

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Speaker 2: we see in actors and politicians and country as occupied

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Speaker 2: see some of this where people who are you know,

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Speaker 2: wise to success very easily, but you can have bad

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Speaker 2: relationships with them, which they'll talk about. And then the

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Speaker 2: other side of narcissism is what we call vulnerable narcissism,

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Speaker 2: and this is what you see more in the clinical world,

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Speaker 2: in clinical settings and therapy settings. And these are folks

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Speaker 2: that have that sense of entitlement, they think that better

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Speaker 2: than other people, same as you know, same as grandiose narcissists,

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Speaker 2: but they also are a little bit insecure. They're kind

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Speaker 2: of depressed or anxious, they have some low self esteem,

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Speaker 2: They're vulnerable to criticism, so their feelings are threatened pretty easily.

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Speaker 2: They go up and down and how good they feel

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Speaker 2: about themselves. And people who are vulnerably narcissistic, we don't

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Speaker 2: end up voting for for president, we don't end up

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Speaker 2: seeing them perform, we don't end up dating them quite

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Speaker 2: as much because they're not outgoing and likable, but stand

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Speaker 2: up in these clinical offices with depression and anxiety because

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Speaker 2: they liked how come people don't appreciate how great I am?

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Speaker 2: How Come people don't know how attractive I am? You know?

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Speaker 2: How come I'm not getting all the girls? How John is?

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Speaker 2: He doesn't have what I have. I'm a legend, but

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Speaker 2: I'm scared to talk to anyone. And so you have

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Speaker 2: these two faces of narcissism that exist, and both of

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Speaker 2: them are traits on a continuum, and you can have

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Speaker 2: you can find people that are grandiose and vulnerable, so

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Speaker 2: they're grandiose, but they have thin skin too, so you

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Speaker 2: can get a mix. And then the third way we

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Speaker 2: talked about narcissism is a very extreme form which is

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Speaker 2: a personality disorder called narcissistic personality disorder or MPD, and

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Speaker 2: that is a very extreme form of narcissism that leads

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Speaker 2: to problems or impairment. So they have a clinical disorder,

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Speaker 2: a clinical level of narcissism. It has to be messing

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Speaker 2: up your life in a way that's so that you

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Speaker 2: need therapy or treatment. So maybe you're you're ruining your

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Speaker 2: marriage because of your infidelity, or maybe you're ruining your

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Speaker 2: business because you're you're too overconfident and you don't take

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Speaker 2: feedback from people, and you make a bunch of dumb

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Speaker 2: risks and you won't learn through mistakes. Or maybe you're

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Speaker 2: you know, you're investing poorly because you're always overestimating your ability.

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Speaker 2: So it could be, you know, you could have your

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Speaker 2: narcissism that becomes so extreme that it messages your life

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Speaker 2: into a disorder. But you can be really narcissistic or

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Speaker 2: not of a disorder. It's just your personality.

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Speaker 1: Okay. I have so many questions about that part of

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Speaker 1: it because just like when I go, yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: it's like what, okay, what I was saying about the

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Speaker 1: ex boyfriend situation, Like I mean your description of a

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Speaker 1: grandiose narcissist literally probably, I mean it just really sounds

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Speaker 1: like a lot of my exes. So I mean they're

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Speaker 1: you know, they're very charming, very you're very drawn to

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Speaker 1: them and all of these things. But it's when you

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Speaker 1: actually get within the relationship that it becomes a problem.

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Speaker 1: So a question is though, like if someone is just

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Speaker 1: has a has narcissistic traits or like, well, I guess okay,

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Speaker 1: let me start over. First question, do we all have

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Speaker 1: some narcissism in.

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Speaker 2: US, Yes, I mean it's a continuum and sort of

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Speaker 2: by definition, we're all on there at some level. Another's

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Speaker 2: if I gave narcissistic narcissistic personality inventory, the hundred people,

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Speaker 2: everybody's on there, okay, but you're going to find a

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Speaker 2: certain number of people that are close to the top,

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Speaker 2: and there's no real line we say, oh, that's narcissism

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Speaker 2: and that's not. But you're going to find a certain

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Speaker 2: amount of people that are at the high end. But

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Speaker 2: most people on narcissism measures are in the middle, are

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Speaker 2: kind of low. You know, it's just it's just you

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Speaker 2: find some that are in the high end.

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Speaker 1: So the way that you talk about it sounds like

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Speaker 1: it's not that big of a deal. But like what

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Speaker 1: we were saying about the exes, I'm like, oh, I

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Speaker 1: got to get away from this person, Like it's well,

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Speaker 1: you know.

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Speaker 2: It's not a it's not that big a deal for

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Speaker 2: your X. It's a big deal for you, right, if

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Speaker 2: that makes sense. So, so the relationship thing is so

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Speaker 2: interesting and at leads to so many problems with narcissism

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Speaker 2: because as you said that the X we're talking about

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Speaker 2: just the generic brandios narcissistic X, not yours, but just

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Speaker 2: in general, somebody who's charming, confident, probably likable when he

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Speaker 2: met him, seem to know what he was doing, seemed

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Speaker 2: to have a way about life. You get in a

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Speaker 2: relationship with somebody like that. The way relationships work in

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Speaker 2: our culture generally is you start a relationship. It usually

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Speaker 2: starts kind of shallow and fun. You find somebody who's

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Speaker 2: sort of attractive, and you go out a few times.

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Speaker 2: It's really fun, you have a great time, you get

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Speaker 2: a rush, You're like, yeah, I really like this person.

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Speaker 2: This is great. And then after a few months you

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Speaker 2: start becoming more emotionally intimate with the person, so you

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Speaker 2: start focusing on caring. You start focusing on the hey,

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Speaker 2: maybe we want to make a commitment, you know, maybe

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Speaker 2: we even want to move in, or maybe won't get

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Speaker 2: married or fall love, you know, and that transition that

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Speaker 2: happens in relationships if you want to take them to

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Speaker 2: the next level. With people who are narcissistics, that doesn't

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Speaker 2: happen well because when you get to that part about

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Speaker 2: the emotion and commitment, and you know you can't hit

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Speaker 2: on all my friends, and you know you've got to

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Speaker 2: be there emotionally. That doesn't that's not their field, that's

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Speaker 2: not where they do really well. So when you get

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Speaker 2: to that phase in the relationship, that usually starts to

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Speaker 2: fall apart or.

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Speaker 1: Can start to fall apart, right, Okay, go ahead, sorry.

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Speaker 2: And so no, So what often happened? I mean the

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Speaker 2: story is that, you know, you get in the relationship,

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Speaker 2: you're in it a few months, things aren't going well.

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Speaker 2: You start going, well, maybe I'm doing something wrong. Why

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Speaker 2: am I? Why is this guy out as interested you

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Speaker 2: seem to be. Maybe there's something wrong with me. I'll

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Speaker 2: try to be nicer, I'll try to be more loving.

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Speaker 2: Well lo and behold if you're more loving, And that

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Speaker 2: kind of pushes the person away because they go, I

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Speaker 2: get away with anything now, and it's sort of backfires

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Speaker 2: and it falls apart and the person that the narcissist

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Speaker 2: is on to somebody else already, and you're sitting there

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Speaker 2: for the next three months, And what the hell did

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Speaker 2: I do wrong? I'm an idiot? How did I not

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Speaker 2: see that coming? What I'm more on? You know, I'm

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Speaker 2: a I'm a bad person who can't handle relationships. Like no,

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Speaker 2: you're totally fine. You just kind of with somebody when

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Speaker 2: that interested in commitment, they're interested in They're interested in

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Speaker 2: commitment on their terms, but not on the terms that

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Speaker 2: work for both of you.

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Speaker 1: So so, yeah, will you say that it's so it's

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Speaker 1: not an issue for them, But isn't that creating problems

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Speaker 1: in their life?

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Speaker 3: It is it?

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Speaker 2: So I was a little glid when I said that.

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Speaker 2: And it does cause issues for the narcissists, but those

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Speaker 2: issues are usually a little more long term. So what

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Speaker 2: happens to the ex boyfriend is he goes through this

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Speaker 2: relationship a few times because and he looks around and

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Speaker 2: he goes, my friends are married, and I see some

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Speaker 2: of them have families and they and they're getting something.

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Speaker 2: They have this love and I don't have that, And

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Speaker 2: maybe I'm missing something. Maybe I need to figure out

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Speaker 2: how to change so I can have a little more

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Speaker 2: committed relationship. And that's when you start seeing people in

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Speaker 2: narcissistics start seeing that their life choices have some consequences. Okay,

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Speaker 2: that makes sense. It's a little later. And and and

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Speaker 2: when I hear from people, you know, I hear from

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Speaker 2: I hear from ten people who had a bad relationship

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Speaker 2: with something narcissistic. For everybody who says, look, I'm kind

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Speaker 2: of narcissistic, Keith and I and I want love and

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Speaker 2: I want a family, but I'm just I'm not I'm

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Speaker 2: blowing it. Yeah, you know, but that's when But that

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Speaker 2: does happen, it's just usually a little more long.

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Speaker 1: Term, so it's just a little later once they start

431
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,480
Speaker 1: realizing or seeing other people go through that process.

432
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:56,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you know. And it's the way. It's

433
00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,679
Speaker 2: the way relationships work in our culture because we have

434
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:03,320
Speaker 2: these sort of love attraction relationships and they're very individualistic.

435
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 2: If you go find dudes or you know whatever, you'll

436
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:11,240
Speaker 2: find people in tender If we were in India and

437
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 2: you know, there's a range marriage, then this wouldn't be

438
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,199
Speaker 2: an issue because you could end up with somebody and

439
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:17,720
Speaker 2: then you'd have to learn to love them.

440
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:21,680
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, I see. So when does it actually become

441
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 1: a problem because you say, like, you know, maybe we

442
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:28,120
Speaker 1: all have a little bit of narcissism in us, and

443
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:30,120
Speaker 1: I do want to talk a little bit about that

444
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:32,879
Speaker 1: test that you can take. But if there's a spectrum

445
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:36,159
Speaker 1: and we're all on it in some capacity, when is

446
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,359
Speaker 1: it actually an issue? Is it when it becomes a disorder,

447
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,600
Speaker 1: or is it just if you're super high in narcissism,

448
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 1: Like how does what does that look like?

449
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,640
Speaker 2: You know, I think that's a it's a great question.

450
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:53,159
Speaker 2: And I generally think of personality traits as trade offs, meaning,

451
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 2: you know, narcissism really would help me in certain situations

452
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,719
Speaker 2: like doing podcasts, for example, or yeah, you know, I

453
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:02,959
Speaker 2: stand out there and tell the world you're a legend,

454
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 2: yeah you know, or you're an expert. I mean, you

455
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,919
Speaker 2: got to ask an ego to do that. And there

456
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 2: are other times when ego really hurts you. So if

457
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:12,919
Speaker 2: I'm with my kids, or I'm with my dog, or

458
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,240
Speaker 2: I'm with my wife and you know, we're trying to

459
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,800
Speaker 2: talk and I'm trying to listen, you know, my ego

460
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:22,119
Speaker 2: sort of interferes. And so the way I like to

461
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,679
Speaker 2: think about it is that we really want our personality

462
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,359
Speaker 2: to be flexible and adapt to the situation. So we

463
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,440
Speaker 2: want to be able to be confident when it's time

464
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 2: to be confident, but when it's not time to be confident,

465
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:37,119
Speaker 2: we need to be able to dial that back. And

466
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 2: maybe we want to be super creative when it's times

467
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 2: to be creative, but when we're not, you know, when

468
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 2: the themes to just get in line with all the rules,

469
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 2: we want to turn that back. And you know, so

470
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 2: we have these different traits and they and they work,

471
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:51,480
Speaker 2: you know, in different places. We want up more or

472
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 2: less and so kind of a healthy personality is some

473
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:59,640
Speaker 2: of these psychologically flexible, meaning they can they can move

474
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,359
Speaker 2: around on need these traits depending on what they need.

475
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:06,719
Speaker 2: Where people get in trouble is when they become rigid

476
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 2: or inflexible and they and it can't really change.

477
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 1: So they're going one way all the time.

478
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:16,439
Speaker 2: Yes, no matter what the situation is. It's like, what

479
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,399
Speaker 2: about my ego needs? Like a pandemic?

480
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,679
Speaker 3: You know, right, you're not getting you're getting.

481
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:27,960
Speaker 2: Your burger Man, it's a pandemic, like my burgers, like pandemic. Man,

482
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 2: let it go. If you can't just let it go,

483
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 2: you're going to suffer because you're like, where are my

484
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 2: needs being met? You know, one's really thinking about your needs.

485
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 2: Everyone's struggling right now, my friend.

486
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:40,440
Speaker 1: Okay, well tell me a little more about ego needs

487
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 1: because I will tell you this. When I was reading

488
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 1: your book, The New Science of Narcissism, I'm reading it

489
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 1: and I'm like, you know, like I said earlier. I'm like, oh,

490
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 1: my exes. Then I'm reading it and I'm reading all

491
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:52,679
Speaker 1: these traits and I was like, holy shit, am I

492
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 1: a narcissist? Like you start to like put yourself on it.

493
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,439
Speaker 1: I started to really ask myself these hard questions and

494
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:02,679
Speaker 1: like what you just said about ego needs, Like we

495
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 1: all have needs, right, especially in like a relationship for instance,

496
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,359
Speaker 1: Like where is the line? I guess is what I'm

497
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 1: trying to figure out of just getting needs met and

498
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,400
Speaker 1: being in a healthy relationship and being a healthy person

499
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,919
Speaker 1: versus being on the opposite end of that. And you know,

500
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 1: I guess like what you're saying may just say staying

501
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 1: in the ego place all the time.

502
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I you know, a lot of this is about

503
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 2: balance and being in your industry and everything else. I mean,

504
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 2: you know, you're in a celebrity field. You got to

505
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 2: look like a celebrity, and so this is important one

506
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 2: place I think it's really important. I feel, Look, you

507
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 2: can worry about your ego and being the best and

508
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:48,360
Speaker 2: being the hottest and being the most popular, and that's

509
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,440
Speaker 2: all cool as long as you're a loving person, as

510
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,960
Speaker 2: long as you have connections, as long as you have compassion. Yeah,

511
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,200
Speaker 2: and so when I look at all the problems of

512
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:00,360
Speaker 2: the narcism, because it's very easy just go if you're

513
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,440
Speaker 2: a narcissistic, don't be such an egomaniac. But like, well,

514
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:07,399
Speaker 2: then who's going to jump on stage reciting poetry? Right,

515
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 2: who's going to put up those crazy pictures that look

516
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 2: like you know, the kid drew them and say it's

517
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 2: modern art? You need an ego for somebody to do that. Sure,

518
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 2: So what I usually think at least, and this is

519
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 2: my own life too, you know, we all struggle with

520
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 2: this is like if you're still able to have those

521
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 2: compassionate connections with people, if you're able to reach out

522
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:32,120
Speaker 2: and help people, if you're loving the people that will

523
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:36,679
Speaker 2: boffer you from getting taken over by your ego. Okay,

524
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 2: So for me, I mean this is my personal practice

525
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 2: because I have an ego. Is I try to always

526
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 2: try to funnel stuff through my heart, like is my

527
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 2: heart open? Is my heart working? Am I looking around?

528
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 2: And if I do that, I go, you know, you're

529
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 2: not going to get in too much trouble. Yeah, you

530
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 2: get in some trouble, but you're not going to be

531
00:28:55,760 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 2: a total jerk every day. You're focusing on like expanding

532
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 2: your capacity for the love a little bit, being more

533
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 2: connected and if you're a loving person, yeah, you probably

534
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 2: know people like this with kind of ego maniacs, but

535
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 2: they really try to be loving, they try to be generous.

536
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 2: It's not always there, because sometimes they're just caught up

537
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 2: a their own thing and they go back to it.

538
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 2: But look, I can work with somebody like that, sure,

539
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 2: I know they're trying. So that to me is that

540
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 2: because if you start fiving the ego directly and saying, look,

541
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 2: I don't want to be popular, I don't want to

542
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 2: be hot, you know you kind of do want to

543
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 2: be hot, you know I don't.

544
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 1: I don't want to be ugly, well right, and be

545
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 1: like trying to talk yourselfself out of being successful, like

546
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 1: I don't want to be successful, you know, Like then

547
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 1: why are we going to work every day? Like I

548
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 1: feel like there's a part of us all that says

549
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 1: I want to be successful. And that looks different for

550
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:51,720
Speaker 1: different people, but yeah, the opposite extreme seems a little

551
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 1: inhumane almost like they are just kind of impossible, like

552
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 1: an impossible standard to meet.

553
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 2: Right, And I So that's why I I think it's

554
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 2: that again, if you focus on the heart, it keeps

555
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 2: you from saying, look, my goal is to be powerful

556
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 2: so I can crush people, and instead my goal is

557
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 2: to be powerful. And once I'm here, I'm going to

558
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 2: try to lift people up with me. I'm going to

559
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 2: try to share the view with people. I'm going to

560
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 2: try to maybe climb back down in the mountain and

561
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 2: give people some tips or help them out, you know,

562
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,600
Speaker 2: try to bring something back for the people. So I think,

563
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 2: I mean, I think conceptualizing your life where there's some

564
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 2: part in there, where there's some part of that bottom

565
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 2: line that's going out to other people, okay, is a

566
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 2: way to balance stats because you know, egos there. It's

567
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 2: just that's just we have a very competitive, individualistic society

568
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 2: and you need some of it.

569
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, So can there be toms in your life where

570
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 1: you're more narcissistic than other times? Like you mentioned, you know,

571
00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 1: like there's toimes where a person might be extramely loving

572
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 1: or whatever, but then there could be times where they

573
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 1: get sucked back into their own stuff. And I know,

574
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 1: for instance, I've had like this year, for instance, I

575
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 1: had a lot of really big blows work wise, or

576
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 1: I was just like super encompassed by a lot of

577
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 1: things happening in my personal life, and then of course

578
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 1: we all are with this pandemic, right, So I have

579
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 1: not felt like my best, most loving self at all

580
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 1: the time. So is that typical? Like, are there times

581
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 1: where we can be a little more healthy and staying

582
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 1: an out of the ego place and then times where

583
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 1: you just get absorbed by it for everyone? Or is

584
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 1: that just me?

585
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 2: No? No, I think that's I think it's you know,

586
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 2: there's there's obviously differences between people. But there's two things

587
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 2: you've touched on that I think are really important. One

588
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 2: is that there's a general idea that if we if

589
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 2: we're well rested and we're stress free, it's much easier

590
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 2: to be nice than when we're tired and and and

591
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 2: stressed out or depleted or exhausted.

592
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 3: Right, you got and work all day.

593
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 2: Let's imagine I'm waiting tables, I'm a server. It's some

594
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 2: fancy place and you know, in uh, Nashville, and I'm

595
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 2: working hard. You know, pandemic's over, and I'm smiling at

596
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 2: people who are mean to me for eight hours. And

597
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 2: I go home to my boyfriend and he's like as

598
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 2: a day I'm like, shut up, I'm exhausted, and so

599
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 2: you just get exhausted. And we kind of run our

600
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 2: world where we try to be really nice with strangers

601
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 2: and we and then we we save our meetenans for

602
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 2: those we love. It's a very strange system. Yeah, so

603
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 2: I think that to be our best self and my

604
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 2: most logging self, you know, getting sleep, getting rest, eating

605
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 2: nutritious tiet, not being you know, on a on a

606
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 2: sugar low with it. Just like the clinicians, the clinicals,

607
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:55,959
Speaker 2: like collegists always say hungry, angry, lonely time. Those are

608
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 2: guide of the you know, those kind of things that

609
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 2: will read the stress and if you're you know, if

610
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:02,959
Speaker 2: when you're stressed to become narcissistic, it's going to make

611
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 2: it worse. You're you're sure not going to be more loving,

612
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 2: you might be more angry, you might be more hostile.

613
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 2: So I think just a general ease in life will help.

614
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 2: The other thing are ages, you know, developmental trends, and

615
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 2: you know you're you're eighteen nineteen, you're going to be

616
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 2: more focused on yourself twenty one, you know you have

617
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 2: a you're trying to build a career, you're trying to

618
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 2: figure out who you are, and then at some point

619
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 2: maybe you go, Okay, I've got I've got my foot

620
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 2: in the career, I'm building something. Now i want to

621
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 2: step out and have a family, and maybe then I've

622
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 2: got to be less self focused, you know. And then

623
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 2: maybe once my family's going, I got to get my kids,

624
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 2: get my kids through college, so I got to be

625
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 2: self focused again. To so some models in psychology talk

626
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 2: about life is sort of a series of cycles, some

627
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 2: more narcissistic, the more interpersonal, and some people talk about

628
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 2: life is when you know, there's this sort of major cycle.

629
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 2: When you're young, you're you're a little more selfish, and

630
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 2: when you get older and you get sort of put

631
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 2: into the system. You get marry, you work, you're kind

632
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 2: of doing your thing. You become a little more socialized,

633
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 2: you're level less narcissistic, you're a little more focused on

634
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:16,240
Speaker 2: the system.

635
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,359
Speaker 1: Okay, that makes actual total sense because I think about

636
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 1: when I graduated college and I was like applying for

637
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 1: my first jobs. I had such an entitlement. This is

638
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:27,240
Speaker 1: what I always tell like young twenty somethings. I literally

639
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 1: was like, Oh, I'm going to walk into these places

640
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:31,840
Speaker 1: and they're going to be so happy to hire me,

641
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,759
Speaker 1: you know, and then you get out there and you're like, oh, wait,

642
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 1: first of all, there's a million other people just like me,

643
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 1: and they you know, either they had they are more

644
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 1: hard working, or they went to a better school, or

645
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 1: they made better grades. Like there's all these different things

646
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 1: that I think reality hits and you switch out of

647
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:53,239
Speaker 1: that entitlement. But I've seen a lot of people really

648
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 1: struggle with that or you know, like that's it's a

649
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 1: huge tip I try to give, like my young interns

650
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 1: that work for me and stuff is just like like

651
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 1: stop thinking that you deserve anything and really like put

652
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:06,400
Speaker 1: the work in to earn it.

653
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:09,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that, I mean, this is one of the

654
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 2: I mean, I wrote a lot about generational differences in

655
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 2: the past, and this stuff comes up, and some of

656
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 2: it's developmental and it's but yeah, you're told for a

657
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 2: long period of time that you're awesome. Ye. And you're

658
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 2: in school and you're told you're awesome, and you're told

659
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 2: you're going to be a winner.

660
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you're not right.

661
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:30,319
Speaker 2: No one promised you that, and it's not fair and

662
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 2: it really sucks. And so that transition, you get your

663
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,320
Speaker 2: ego crashed. It's really painful to people.

664
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's why I give.

665
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 2: The examples of like gig wave surfers or fighters or

666
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,799
Speaker 2: people like that are often super nice because they just

667
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 2: have got crushed so many times, they've lost so many times,

668
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 2: they become humble and really more loving in a way.

669
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 2: But what's interesting about your story too, is you went

670
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:00,359
Speaker 2: for it. You're like, I thought I was the cat

671
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,359
Speaker 2: as I went for it. So at least you went

672
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 2: for it, you know. And and you know, I grew up.

673
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 2: I was you know, when I was young, I was

674
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 2: really insecure, really anxious, and uh, you know, I'd go

675
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:19,360
Speaker 2: for stuff, but it was just gut check, you know,

676
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:21,319
Speaker 2: if anyone liked me, I was like, oh my god,

677
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,359
Speaker 2: they must not know who I am. And and that's

678
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,399
Speaker 2: not funny either. So you know that that ego when

679
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:30,319
Speaker 2: you start something isn't bad to go out there and

680
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 2: do it, as long as you're able to sort of

681
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:35,359
Speaker 2: take that ego off pretty quickly when you realize you're

682
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:37,240
Speaker 2: you know, you're not that special.

683
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:40,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was a huge one.

684
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 2: And it's hard and and and the other thing. I

685
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:47,279
Speaker 2: think it's funny when you're bringing this up because I

686
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 2: you know, I started judging myself as I got older

687
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 2: and studied this. I thought, you know, when I'm the

688
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,239
Speaker 2: dumbest person at the table, that's when I know I've

689
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 2: made it so academic. Yeah, as an academic. I've gone

690
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 2: to dinner and I've looked around the table. I like,

691
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 2: these are the smartest people I've ever seen in my life,

692
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 2: and I'm not. I'm sitting with them, and then I

693
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:07,840
Speaker 2: shouldn't be here.

694
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:10,720
Speaker 3: This is as good as a get Well, that's such.

695
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:12,319
Speaker 1: A good way to look at it, though, because we

696
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:14,279
Speaker 1: all I think a lot of times what I hear

697
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 1: people say or what I deal with is that imposter syndrome.

698
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 1: And so instead of going, oh my god, I shouldn't

699
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 1: be here, you're just like happy to be there with

700
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 1: these people.

701
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:26,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's, it's it's it's a way of kind

702
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 2: of just embracing imposter syndrome a little more. Yeah, foster

703
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 2: syndrome is is totally normal, and it's you know, it's

704
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,280
Speaker 2: normal for people, especially when you're rising through a system.

705
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:39,400
Speaker 2: So every time you start something like oh my god,

706
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:41,840
Speaker 2: I'm a gratitude Oh my god, I'm a professor, this

707
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,319
Speaker 2: is crazy. Yeah, you know, and you kind of do

708
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 2: that your whole life. But but if you're not doing that,

709
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 2: you know, I always tell my students it's very easy

710
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 2: to set up a world where like, you don't get

711
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:55,439
Speaker 2: rattled and you're the you know everything. You just set

712
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,920
Speaker 2: up a very small world for yourself while you're the boss,

713
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:04,280
Speaker 2: and and you won't be threatened and you won't grow.

714
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:07,799
Speaker 2: But if you want to grow, you have to be

715
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,880
Speaker 2: comfortable being an idiot and being the dumbest person.

716
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,680
Speaker 1: I love that though, Yes, that is so true.

717
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:18,120
Speaker 2: And then when you start doing you start going, oh

718
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 2: my god, look how surrounded by these I'm such an idiot,

719
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 2: you know, and I'm on the stage with all these

720
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:26,080
Speaker 2: great people. And you start getting reinforced for that. You're

721
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 2: start going, this is great, I'm doing it right. You

722
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,400
Speaker 2: start to be able to embrace your you know, your failings,

723
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:33,760
Speaker 2: and that's when you start to grow.

724
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 1: Yes, a new thing I started doing too. When I

725
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 1: feel that feeling of like, oh god, I don't know

726
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 1: what I'm doing or I'm starting something new, and I

727
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 1: see other people doing it so easily, what I try

728
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 1: to say to myself now is to like, look at

729
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 1: what they're doing, Look at what they're doing well and

730
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 1: learn from it and just go I can do that too.

731
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 1: I'm in the same place. Now. Maybe you don't know

732
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 1: how to do it yet, but like, I like how

733
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:00,759
Speaker 1: he does that, or I like how she does this part,

734
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 1: and just take take those as lessons instead.

735
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 2: Yes, because one of the things that happens with narcissism,

736
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,279
Speaker 2: and you see this with with vulnerable narcissism in particular,

737
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 2: but grandiose as well as you see envy. Oh yeah,

738
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 2: so you know, I'll look at those people. It's so

739
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 2: easy for them. It's just not fair. Just screw them.

740
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 2: I'm gonna trip them up, talk on their back, I'm

741
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,239
Speaker 2: gonna shame them, and you know, so you know I

742
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 2: see myself doing stuff like that. I'm gonna come. You

743
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 2: just sound like an envious little child. You're acting, you know,

744
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 2: And it's much better to say, I look at these

745
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 2: people that are so successful, but I'm so glad they

746
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 2: did this because I can learn from them, and I,

747
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:44,800
Speaker 2: like you said, take what they're doing well and apply

748
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 2: it to me and modify it and this is awesome

749
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:51,759
Speaker 2: and then all internalized. But it's like your ego to

750
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 2: be able to do that. Yeah, say, look, I'm learning

751
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:59,239
Speaker 2: I'm growing, I'm changing. This is the process, and there's

752
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 2: a there's a have to do that because you're not

753
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 2: the best.

754
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 1: Right right. I want to talk a little bit about

755
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 1: measuring narcissism, because you have a lot in your book

756
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:13,760
Speaker 1: about actually the science by which you guys are starting

757
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:17,799
Speaker 1: to change how you measure narcissism. And we mentioned a

758
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:22,239
Speaker 1: little bit the NPI and I took the test and

759
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:24,760
Speaker 1: I had a hard time because some of the questions

760
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,960
Speaker 1: I felt like I didn't identify with either, and some

761
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 1: of the questions I felt like I could identify with both.

762
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:33,040
Speaker 1: And so then it was like, how do I answer?

763
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a strange test. So a little bit of history,

764
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:44,319
Speaker 2: there was a there has been several ways we've measured narcissism,

765
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 2: but the test it got really popular in the eighties

766
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:52,120
Speaker 2: and it's still going strong. It's called the Narcissistic Personality Inventory,

767
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:57,279
Speaker 2: and it's a strange test, and that most of what

768
00:40:57,320 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 2: we do. If you take a psychology to say you

769
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 2: know it on a five point scale, you know, if

770
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 2: I rule the world, there'd be a much better place.

771
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,040
Speaker 2: One to five. Five is definitely right, not at all.

772
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:11,239
Speaker 2: That's usually how you do it. Yes, so, but there's

773
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 2: problems with self report, and you know, sometimes people just

774
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:16,440
Speaker 2: say what they think is the right thing to say.

775
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 2: And so what they did with this scale and some

776
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 2: others at the time is they use what's called a

777
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 2: forced choice. So they give you two questions and you

778
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 2: have to pick one. But the challenge is both those

779
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:32,719
Speaker 2: questions are kind of socially acceptable. So for example, it

780
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:35,880
Speaker 2: might be, hey, Keith, if you rule the rule of

781
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:38,719
Speaker 2: the world, it would be a much better place versus

782
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:41,840
Speaker 2: ruling the world frightens the hell out of me. So

783
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 2: I have to make a choice, and I'm thinking if

784
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:46,440
Speaker 2: I rule the world, I couldn't do any better than

785
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 2: anyone else. Right, I know I'm not that narcissistic, but

786
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 2: does it scare the hell out of me? Oh? I

787
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 2: think it'd be super fun to rule the right.

788
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 1: This is exactly what was happening to me when I

789
00:41:58,000 --> 00:41:58,400
Speaker 1: was taking it.

790
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:01,440
Speaker 2: Which so which when do I pick? And then it's

791
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 2: kind of fifty to fifty, And so what that means

792
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:06,880
Speaker 2: is your score is probably going You can probably flip

793
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 2: the narcissistic one on one and the non narcissistic another

794
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 2: and probably hit up. I'm going to ask you what

795
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 2: your score was unless you want to tell me.

796
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:19,359
Speaker 1: But I don't think I do because I got and

797
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:20,280
Speaker 1: I was like what.

798
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:25,240
Speaker 2: No. But but a lot of times that's just the framing,

799
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:28,680
Speaker 2: and you see the framing with that. It makes it

800
00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 2: interesting because you're answering with those first choice you're going

801
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 2: to answer a little differently. If it were one to

802
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:37,560
Speaker 2: five scale, you might say, if I ruled the world,

803
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 2: you would be a much better place at three out

804
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 2: of five.

805
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 1: Totally yes, right, So is it accurate though? That's the question.

806
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:49,799
Speaker 1: Is that how we're measuring narcissism? And if so, is

807
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:52,799
Speaker 1: that a very accurate way to do that?

808
00:42:53,800 --> 00:43:00,080
Speaker 2: It's that force choice format that it works easily well.

809
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 2: But I think a five point like scale is a

810
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 2: better I mean, sorry to these words, it's more psychometrically

811
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:11,759
Speaker 2: sounds yeah, so, I mean my student Brittany built one,

812
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:14,440
Speaker 2: So we built some five point scale. Is the nice

813
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:17,279
Speaker 2: thing about the NPI and the reason I like the

814
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 2: forced choice for people to take is because we have

815
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:24,759
Speaker 2: so many people taking a forty nine version and we

816
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 2: have a pretty good idea with the means for our SOSS.

817
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 2: It makes it easy to compare yourself to other people.

818
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:33,960
Speaker 2: What do you mean meaning if you got let's say

819
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:37,279
Speaker 2: that the forty point narcissism scale, and I can say,

820
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:39,960
Speaker 2: you know, the average score is about you know, for

821
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:42,239
Speaker 2: some of your age is probably I'm just going to

822
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:47,359
Speaker 2: say at thirteen, okay, and twelve, I don't know. And

823
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:50,719
Speaker 2: the average score of our president is estimated to maybe

824
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:54,000
Speaker 2: be twenty five, and the average comedian maybe the nineteen

825
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 2: and you so you kind of you can kind of

826
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:58,719
Speaker 2: get numbers for it. I guess we've done it with

827
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 2: so many samples, but it would be much better if

828
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 2: we had a five point scale that we'd given to

829
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:10,120
Speaker 2: all those different people. Right, we just don't have it.

830
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:12,320
Speaker 2: It's just the history of how this was made and

831
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:17,920
Speaker 2: how it kind of stuck around. And you know, we've

832
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 2: built better scale since then, but they're just not as

833
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:23,760
Speaker 2: they're just haven't been used this much. Sore. It's harder

834
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:27,280
Speaker 2: to find comparison groups, and they're a little longer than things.

835
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I will say when I took it and

836
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 1: I got my score and it was higher than I

837
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:36,000
Speaker 1: would have liked, I at first was like, oh my gosh,

838
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 1: oh my gosh. But then like I started reading or

839
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:41,839
Speaker 1: I kept reading more, and you were saying like, if

840
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:44,440
Speaker 1: you score high, don't be alarmed. It's just interesting to

841
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 1: recognize maybe some traits about you. So then I started

842
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:50,240
Speaker 1: thinking through kind of my year, like I was saying

843
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 1: to you earlier, and I actually think I answered some

844
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 1: of the questions based on how I've been lately, Whereas

845
00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:59,720
Speaker 1: when I look at my life on a grander scheme

846
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:03,759
Speaker 1: of like even like maybe when I'm in my healthier place,

847
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:06,880
Speaker 1: the answer is different. So it's like it's not always

848
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:09,160
Speaker 1: one or the other. And so I just it kind

849
00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:12,240
Speaker 1: of made me think about, Okay, well, maybe right now

850
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:15,080
Speaker 1: this is something that I could look at in certain

851
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:17,919
Speaker 1: characteristics are in certain areas of my life, even maybe

852
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:20,759
Speaker 1: where I've been a little bit too self focused or

853
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:23,120
Speaker 1: too self absorbed, and then I can look at it

854
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 1: and go, Okay, what can I do better? Do you

855
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:26,200
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying?

856
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:30,879
Speaker 2: Absolutely? And I think that so first of all, these

857
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 2: score like, your personality is going to fluctuate over time.

858
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:36,359
Speaker 2: It's going to change in some ways that are kind

859
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:41,120
Speaker 2: of developmentally appropriate. You know, most people over time they

860
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:44,240
Speaker 2: become maybe a little nicer as they get older. Yeah,

861
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:46,520
Speaker 2: maybe they get old and they get a little less

862
00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 2: open to experience when they're in their oldest age a

863
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:51,920
Speaker 2: little more, you know, concrete now they think. So there

864
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 2: are these sort of changes people go to. But also

865
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:59,880
Speaker 2: if you measure even narcissistic personality inventory the extreme forms,

866
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:02,319
Speaker 2: people will have it, and they won't have it for

867
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 2: six months, it'll come back. So people are fluctuating around

868
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 2: these stores depending on what's going on in the right.

869
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 2: So what you're saying, it makes perfect sense, just like

870
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:16,360
Speaker 2: it would for anxiety. You know, anxiety stores are much higher.

871
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 2: I don't know if they're much higher. What I can

872
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 2: tell chatting with people that anxiety and depression has probably

873
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:27,120
Speaker 2: gone up during the pandemic. So sure, yeah, yeah, themes

874
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 2: that way in the data. You know, I don't publicly,

875
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:31,359
Speaker 2: I try to be a little more cautious, but yeah,

876
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:33,799
Speaker 2: just themes I talk to people like that. I think

877
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:36,319
Speaker 2: dosing of medicines is probably going up, but no one's

878
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:39,240
Speaker 2: done their study on it yet, right, Like in anxiety meds,

879
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 2: I've got people's doses and going up, but I've only

880
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:46,680
Speaker 2: heard that anecdotally. So I mean that's an example where

881
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:50,920
Speaker 2: people are changing because of a social situation, and narcissism

882
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:52,440
Speaker 2: could do that as well. And it's part of it.

883
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:55,360
Speaker 2: You just people are so isolated right now.

884
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:58,480
Speaker 1: Totally well right, I mean you're with yourself all the time.

885
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:00,520
Speaker 1: So it makes it a lot easier to us focus

886
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:02,600
Speaker 1: on you and your needs and all.

887
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 2: Of that stuff, right, because that's you know, what do

888
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:07,799
Speaker 2: you do? Your stuff, your kids, and you're trying to

889
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:10,400
Speaker 2: just survive. You're staying yourself and everyone's like, what you

890
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:12,800
Speaker 2: got six months? Are you going to become a great person?

891
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:14,879
Speaker 2: Feel like, look so.

892
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:16,480
Speaker 1: Depressed and didn't get out of bed?

893
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:19,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, want to get out of bed, maybe eat and

894
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:23,239
Speaker 2: make until five till I can start drinking. Right, But

895
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:25,799
Speaker 2: this is and but this is America, and like we're

896
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:28,960
Speaker 2: high achieving culture and like, well did you learn Spanish?

897
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:30,279
Speaker 1: Exactly?

898
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:32,520
Speaker 2: How come you don't know Spanish?

899
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 1: Didn't learn how to banana bread? That's what.

900
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 2: Really So so it's just we live in this you know,

901
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:46,839
Speaker 2: there's a lot of pressure to perform, yes, and uh,

902
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 2: and it's and I love it about America. I'm not

903
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:52,919
Speaker 2: anti American anyway. I love that, but it's also exhausting

904
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:56,399
Speaker 2: and for people to just port for people, but look

905
00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:59,400
Speaker 2: at your freaking pandemic. I'm depressed. I don't know what

906
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:03,960
Speaker 2: to do just right, you know, just want to survive

907
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:06,320
Speaker 2: this thing and then I'll work up on the other side.

908
00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:10,719
Speaker 1: You know, Well, let's kind of talk about that then,

909
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:13,680
Speaker 1: because you mentioned our society being such a you know,

910
00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:17,480
Speaker 1: a highly like performance based society, and I think the

911
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:20,400
Speaker 1: pandemic has clearly rocked that for a lot of people.

912
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 1: I know that's been a huge thing for me. Is

913
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:25,320
Speaker 1: like asking myself the questions who am I now? Because

914
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:27,799
Speaker 1: so much of my identity was wrapped up into my

915
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:31,320
Speaker 1: work and my public life like you were talking about,

916
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 1: and just validation from that and who I work with

917
00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 1: in that celebrity world and all of that, and when

918
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:40,000
Speaker 1: that's ripped away, you're faced with yourself and a lot

919
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:43,719
Speaker 1: of other questions. But typically in our world, we have

920
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:48,759
Speaker 1: this society that's super heavy focused on social media and

921
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:51,960
Speaker 1: your appearance that way and the perception that you're putting

922
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:54,879
Speaker 1: out there, even the reality TV stuff. I was reading

923
00:48:54,880 --> 00:49:00,319
Speaker 1: in your book that there's a high narcissistic personality rate

924
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:04,640
Speaker 1: amongst reality TV stars because of the drama that they're

925
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:08,520
Speaker 1: expected to bring, and that's like a very typical characteristic

926
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:11,799
Speaker 1: right of Yeah, So can you talk a little bit

927
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 1: about that and just like our society. Are we are

928
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 1: we actually like creating a narcissistic society or making it

929
00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 1: more acceptable to be narcissistic.

930
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:24,480
Speaker 3: Yes, that's a lot.

931
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 2: There's a lot in that question. I'll just try to

932
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:30,239
Speaker 2: break it down a little bit. But so a few

933
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:34,440
Speaker 2: a few things you've mentioned. One is, you know, we

934
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:39,760
Speaker 2: build a professional identity, many of us because of the

935
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:42,759
Speaker 2: breakdown and sort of work and jobs, we all kind

936
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:45,759
Speaker 2: of our own boss. We have to build personal brands, right,

937
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:47,520
Speaker 2: So it's not just you just have It's not just

938
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 2: you have to be nice, Keith. It's not just you

939
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:51,759
Speaker 2: need to know a few dad jokes to get you know,

940
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:54,160
Speaker 2: you just you know, But you also need a brand.

941
00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:56,360
Speaker 2: And so you're telling twenty year olds you got to

942
00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:58,880
Speaker 2: build a brand, and it's it's hard. So there's just

943
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:03,080
Speaker 2: all this pressure on building these social brands. And you know,

944
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:06,000
Speaker 2: we build brands and we get feedback for those you know,

945
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 2: so we here's who I am, here's my feedback. And

946
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:12,400
Speaker 2: social media of course makes it super easy. So here's

947
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 2: my brand. Let me share it on the Instagram. I mean,

948
00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:17,320
Speaker 2: if you're stylist, you're probably doing a lot of Instagram.

949
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:20,279
Speaker 2: I don't know, but you know, yeah, that would be

950
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:22,279
Speaker 2: you know, that's very calm and see what you want

951
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 2: to show your performance and how good you are and

952
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:27,480
Speaker 2: and and so you sort of are curating a brand

953
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 2: all the time and getting feedback, and other people are

954
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:33,439
Speaker 2: doing the same thing, and you're constantly working on each

955
00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:36,760
Speaker 2: other and helping each other, fighting with each other whatever

956
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 2: to do the build these brands and the stuff.

957
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 3: And then it all stops, Yes.

958
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:45,799
Speaker 2: And like who am I? I mean, I would all

959
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:47,960
Speaker 2: I know is on a machine that builds brands and

960
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:50,920
Speaker 2: an identity and get feedback. And when that feedback stops,

961
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:54,759
Speaker 2: it all just kind of fells to the bottom. And that's,

962
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:57,360
Speaker 2: you know, an existential crisis. I mean, that's kind of

963
00:50:57,360 --> 00:50:59,479
Speaker 2: what happens to who am I? What am I here for?

964
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:04,200
Speaker 2: So I think that's this is going to this transition,

965
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 2: I guess, you know, when I try to think of

966
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 2: positive stuff about the pandemic, which I tried to do

967
00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:12,440
Speaker 2: a few times, especially when it's really depressed by it,

968
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:14,279
Speaker 2: is that it's going to give people a chance to

969
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 2: really look in work and and a lot of people

970
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:18,879
Speaker 2: are reflecting on what they're doing and who they want

971
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:21,440
Speaker 2: to be and is this right for me? And if

972
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:24,200
Speaker 2: it's not right, what should I do that's more authentic

973
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:27,560
Speaker 2: or it's more real? And you know, everybody's like, I'm

974
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:28,640
Speaker 2: moving to Montana.

975
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:29,279
Speaker 1: I don't know.

976
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:31,200
Speaker 2: Everybody I know is moving to Montana.

977
00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:32,440
Speaker 1: And I've been.

978
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:33,960
Speaker 2: You've been to Montana.

979
00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:37,719
Speaker 1: The winter winds are real, but it's beautiful.

980
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:41,040
Speaker 2: But they never have you know, the I'm like, good

981
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:44,560
Speaker 2: for you. You know, maybe I'll move to Montana. So then,

982
00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:48,120
Speaker 2: but I think people are having that issue. Uh, And

983
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:50,239
Speaker 2: I think this is like what is bringing up with?

984
00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 2: Do is bring It's happened with a lot of people.

985
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:57,000
Speaker 2: It's just identity is so hooked into a rapidly moving

986
00:51:57,080 --> 00:51:59,719
Speaker 2: economy and when that's gone, you know, it all kind

987
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:03,920
Speaker 2: of as a part. The other issue is about how

988
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:06,480
Speaker 2: we're selecting people for a lot of these things. And

989
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:12,280
Speaker 2: social media selects. And when I use the word select

990
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:16,279
Speaker 2: this is it like an industry term. But selects for

991
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:19,400
Speaker 2: it means it pulls for, it attracts, or it draws

992
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:27,920
Speaker 2: in narcissism, So social media pulls for narcissism, meaning we

993
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:31,520
Speaker 2: all use social media from another but people in narcissistic

994
00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:33,920
Speaker 2: tend to be really better at it. They tend to

995
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:39,320
Speaker 2: have more connections, more friends, more interactions. You know, it

996
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:41,960
Speaker 2: takes selfies and they feel good about it and they

997
00:52:42,080 --> 00:52:44,680
Speaker 2: share them, and it's just easier for them to use

998
00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 2: social media. So social media selects for narcissism, especially grandiose narcissism.

999
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:57,439
Speaker 2: Reality television selects for narcissism because you need a bunch

1000
00:52:57,480 --> 00:53:00,000
Speaker 2: of people who want to be famous for nothing except

1001
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 2: up for famous? Right, Who who wants to do that? Well,

1002
00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:09,959
Speaker 2: somebody's wanted a narcissistic but I want to be famous? Why, Keith,

1003
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:11,239
Speaker 2: Why do you want to be famous? I just want

1004
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:13,759
Speaker 2: people to think I'm cool for what.

1005
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:17,440
Speaker 1: Well, that's the culture that's been created, right, like the Kardashians.

1006
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:19,319
Speaker 1: I always use them as the example. And first of all,

1007
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:21,919
Speaker 1: I have to give you the little note that I

1008
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:25,640
Speaker 1: did a reality TV show and it was but I

1009
00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:27,960
Speaker 1: was terrible at it. And that's that's why this is

1010
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:30,719
Speaker 1: so fascinating to me. I actually did not enjoy it

1011
00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:32,920
Speaker 1: very much, but I was looking at it from a

1012
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:36,799
Speaker 1: brand perspective of you can't beat that exposure. However, it

1013
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:39,160
Speaker 1: ended up biting me in the ass because of my

1014
00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:42,960
Speaker 1: inability to do it. The way that that system is

1015
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 1: set up and and it kind of backfired on me.

1016
00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:51,759
Speaker 1: But what I've noticed is just like that, you know,

1017
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:55,680
Speaker 1: the Kardashian culture of it, they make it so it

1018
00:53:55,719 --> 00:54:00,239
Speaker 1: looks just so glamorous to just get famous for doing

1019
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:03,560
Speaker 1: nothing or having a sex tape or being rich or

1020
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:05,279
Speaker 1: you know, any of those things, and it makes it

1021
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:08,919
Speaker 1: so attainable that I think that the culture that we've

1022
00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:15,200
Speaker 1: created is one of people just like lusting after that almost, Oh.

1023
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:18,480
Speaker 2: I mean absolutely, And that's really I would love to

1024
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:20,799
Speaker 2: I want to hear what short was. I'm really curious to.

1025
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:25,840
Speaker 3: Tell you after Okay, Yeah, I think this stuff is

1026
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:29,680
Speaker 3: so fascinating, and I don't I've never been on reality television,

1027
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:31,799
Speaker 3: but I've talked to the camera people.

1028
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:34,560
Speaker 2: And stuff, and I've heard a lot of it is

1029
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:37,760
Speaker 2: you select people want to be famous, and then there's drinking,

1030
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:41,080
Speaker 2: and people kind of set up fights and set up drama,

1031
00:54:41,239 --> 00:54:44,799
Speaker 2: and producers will do this. I mean, one person told

1032
00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:47,400
Speaker 2: me said, you know, the only people on reality television

1033
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:49,800
Speaker 2: are real is Jackass.

1034
00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:52,560
Speaker 1: Oh I forgot about that shit.

1035
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:53,359
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1036
00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:55,640
Speaker 2: The guy was like, I work with Jackass and those

1037
00:54:55,719 --> 00:54:59,959
Speaker 2: guys are truly crazy. But everything else, you know, every

1038
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:01,719
Speaker 2: and else is kind of you know, there's a lot

1039
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:04,400
Speaker 2: of alcohol. It's kind of controlled. There's scripts that are

1040
00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:07,840
Speaker 2: being built in all the time and narratives, and I

1041
00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:09,359
Speaker 2: don't know if it's true. I haven't done that.

1042
00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:11,080
Speaker 1: Well I could tell you. I'll just tell you from

1043
00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:14,040
Speaker 1: my experience. What I did end up realizing that I

1044
00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:18,319
Speaker 1: enjoyed about it was that I the second season. I

1045
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:20,799
Speaker 1: was on two seasons, and the second season I kind

1046
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:23,160
Speaker 1: of just leaned in and opened up about things I

1047
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:26,319
Speaker 1: was struggling with, and that was a way for me

1048
00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:29,319
Speaker 1: to connect because then I started getting, you know, on

1049
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 1: social media, lots of messages from people who had been

1050
00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:34,880
Speaker 1: through the same thing, and I really enjoyed that aspect

1051
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:37,000
Speaker 1: of it. I love to connect with people. I love

1052
00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:39,759
Speaker 1: hearing stories of people who've gone through the same thing

1053
00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:41,239
Speaker 1: as me, Like it just makes me feel not so

1054
00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:45,480
Speaker 1: alone in this world. However, the person I was on

1055
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:47,440
Speaker 1: the show very cavalariy. I'll just say it, but it

1056
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:51,480
Speaker 1: was it was a reality TV star from the past

1057
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:53,879
Speaker 1: show and so the way that that dynamic was set

1058
00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:55,960
Speaker 1: up was it was supposed to be real at first,

1059
00:55:55,960 --> 00:55:57,960
Speaker 1: and then they kind of shifted as a show needed

1060
00:55:57,960 --> 00:56:00,880
Speaker 1: more ratings and I just couldn't do it like, I

1061
00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:04,880
Speaker 1: literally couldn't do it because it wasn't It's not my

1062
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:07,240
Speaker 1: wiring to just fake something.

1063
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:07,440
Speaker 2: You know.

1064
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:09,960
Speaker 1: It's just like a weird dynamic to me, but it is.

1065
00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:12,320
Speaker 1: It is set up like that a lot and one

1066
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:16,200
Speaker 1: person and the producers are controlling the narrative, which is

1067
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:18,160
Speaker 1: just bizarre. It's weird.

1068
00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:20,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, but some people like.

1069
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:22,719
Speaker 1: It even when it's negative, because it doesn't it's you know,

1070
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:25,080
Speaker 1: any publicity is good publicity.

1071
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:28,919
Speaker 2: Right, You're getting attention, you're getting your name out there,

1072
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:33,239
Speaker 2: and yeah, like and when I you know, you've been

1073
00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:36,640
Speaker 2: about celebrity, but I just say that academics like you

1074
00:56:36,680 --> 00:56:38,720
Speaker 2: stick your head out out of the fox hole. Somebody's

1075
00:56:38,760 --> 00:56:42,560
Speaker 2: going to shoot you. Right, generally half the people hate you.

1076
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:46,280
Speaker 1: That's exactly right. I learned that lesson.

1077
00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:49,239
Speaker 2: I mean, I'll do this podcast and I'll tay some

1078
00:56:49,239 --> 00:56:51,840
Speaker 2: of new writer views like Campbell, what an idiot, you

1079
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:55,560
Speaker 2: don't know anything? You know? And you know, Annie Spat

1080
00:56:55,680 --> 00:56:57,319
Speaker 2: that's my favorite. When they comment like.

1081
00:56:58,480 --> 00:56:59,960
Speaker 1: It has nothing to do with what you said.

1082
00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:02,720
Speaker 2: That's what always kills me. It's like, God, you're fat.

1083
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:06,760
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, it hurt, you know, that's the nature

1084
00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:11,719
Speaker 2: of it. That's just the nature for modern society. You know,

1085
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:15,080
Speaker 2: they put you out there and people love you know,

1086
00:57:15,160 --> 00:57:17,480
Speaker 2: they it's nice getting the same. But some people just

1087
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:21,720
Speaker 2: like attention because they feel they matter. It makes sense.

1088
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:26,120
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know. Probably I'd probably go on

1089
00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:27,480
Speaker 2: reality show up and never.

1090
00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:33,200
Speaker 1: Don't do it. Don't do it well until it doesn't,

1091
00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:36,280
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Like the attention feels nice

1092
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:38,360
Speaker 1: when it's working for you, but when it doesn't, it

1093
00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:39,240
Speaker 1: doesn't feel so good.

1094
00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:44,760
Speaker 2: That's yeah, I am. Yeah, fame is anyway, it's a

1095
00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:49,000
Speaker 2: whole different beast with you know, with research everyone while

1096
00:57:49,120 --> 00:57:51,600
Speaker 2: you write an article. So back in the back in

1097
00:57:51,640 --> 00:57:55,240
Speaker 2: the day when Facebook came out, I was I was looking.

1098
00:57:55,480 --> 00:57:57,520
Speaker 2: I was like, oh my god, there's narcissist. So I

1099
00:57:57,560 --> 00:57:59,680
Speaker 2: got my sid Laura, I'm like, let's study this. And

1100
00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:02,640
Speaker 2: that's when we just kind of first figured out that

1101
00:58:02,680 --> 00:58:05,360
Speaker 2: there is some link between narcissism and social media. And

1102
00:58:05,400 --> 00:58:07,640
Speaker 2: there's been a lot of research since. Yeah, but we

1103
00:58:07,720 --> 00:58:11,080
Speaker 2: first had the study, some newspaper picked it up and

1104
00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:15,640
Speaker 2: said facebookers are narcissists. That became like the headline right

1105
00:58:15,880 --> 00:58:18,959
Speaker 2: on the Drudge Report, And you know, I'm getting hate

1106
00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:21,880
Speaker 2: mail and my purson law. I'm like, Lauren, go talk

1107
00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:24,480
Speaker 2: to people and be famous, and she's like I love this.

1108
00:58:24,640 --> 00:58:27,800
Speaker 2: Same for about a day, and then a day and

1109
00:58:27,840 --> 00:58:29,800
Speaker 2: a half into it, she's like, same, sucks.

1110
00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:30,800
Speaker 1: It's not that great.

1111
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:36,400
Speaker 2: Wait, how's that hate mail going? Right? But it was

1112
00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:38,479
Speaker 2: really cool because she got to go through a whole

1113
00:58:38,520 --> 00:58:42,919
Speaker 2: theme cycle in a day, yeah, and learn that it's

1114
00:58:43,000 --> 00:58:45,680
Speaker 2: really not as great as it sounds. But that's a

1115
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:48,480
Speaker 2: hard lesson to learn unless you do it because because

1116
00:58:48,520 --> 00:58:49,400
Speaker 2: you want to be famous.

1117
00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:52,640
Speaker 1: This is America, of course, and no one, no one,

1118
00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:55,080
Speaker 1: as much as you could go yeah, but you're getting

1119
00:58:55,080 --> 00:58:58,440
Speaker 1: all this hate mail or these bullies. Everyone's kind of like, yeah,

1120
00:58:58,520 --> 00:59:01,360
Speaker 1: but you get X, Y and Z. That seems so

1121
00:59:01,440 --> 00:59:03,160
Speaker 1: much better. And I guess it just depends on what's

1122
00:59:03,160 --> 00:59:05,760
Speaker 1: more important to you. But for me, it wasn't worth it.

1123
00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:09,000
Speaker 1: Like I did not enjoy the death threats or the

1124
00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:11,040
Speaker 1: bullying or the like, that's not worth it to me.

1125
00:59:11,120 --> 00:59:13,040
Speaker 1: I would rather just go about my life, you know.

1126
00:59:13,560 --> 00:59:14,919
Speaker 1: But for some people who don't care.

1127
00:59:15,800 --> 00:59:18,560
Speaker 2: But that's really interesting for narcissism, because you think about

1128
00:59:18,680 --> 00:59:21,840
Speaker 2: narcissism is like you don't have that that inner personal

1129
00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:25,200
Speaker 2: love piece isn't as important. It's not that you you

1130
00:59:25,240 --> 00:59:28,280
Speaker 2: can't love, but that piece of love isn't as important

1131
00:59:28,320 --> 00:59:30,680
Speaker 2: as that piece for being loved or being admired.

1132
00:59:32,320 --> 00:59:33,920
Speaker 1: Being that's interesting.

1133
00:59:34,040 --> 00:59:37,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, so people like you know what, Sure, some people

1134
00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:40,440
Speaker 2: hate me, but I've noticed and that matters more. Wow.

1135
00:59:40,840 --> 00:59:42,360
Speaker 2: When I go to bed at night, I'm sort of

1136
00:59:42,360 --> 00:59:44,080
Speaker 2: thinking I got noticed. That's pretty bitch.

1137
00:59:44,720 --> 00:59:45,439
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1138
00:59:45,520 --> 00:59:47,520
Speaker 2: And other people are like, you know, I want to

1139
00:59:47,520 --> 00:59:50,439
Speaker 2: be loved and that's pretty good. Yeah. And a lot

1140
00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:52,360
Speaker 2: of us, you know, won't vote, and we go to

1141
00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:55,000
Speaker 2: baguing and loved and my puppies here, but kind of

1142
00:59:55,040 --> 00:59:57,520
Speaker 2: wish I was famous and noticed, and you know, other

1143
00:59:57,560 --> 00:59:59,959
Speaker 2: people are going out I'm famous. I wish my top

1144
01:00:00,120 --> 01:00:04,440
Speaker 2: we're here. It's a tradeoff. And the other thing you

1145
01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:07,280
Speaker 2: mentioned in there is I have a student who actually

1146
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:13,760
Speaker 2: studies celebrities Patrick and he and what he's noticed in

1147
01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:17,760
Speaker 2: some of his work is that people who are being

1148
01:00:17,800 --> 01:00:23,480
Speaker 2: authentic and revealing things like talking about you know, coming

1149
01:00:23,520 --> 01:00:27,320
Speaker 2: out videos or coming out as craft, coming out as day,

1150
01:00:27,600 --> 01:00:30,440
Speaker 2: or coming out as you know, having some sort of

1151
01:00:30,520 --> 01:00:33,840
Speaker 2: trauma or whatever, people really respond to that.

1152
01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:34,680
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1153
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:38,560
Speaker 2: That it's a way that people can gain followers. And

1154
01:00:38,600 --> 01:00:42,320
Speaker 2: gain status. And he told me in my student path

1155
01:00:42,320 --> 01:00:44,560
Speaker 2: it just like I said, I don't know this as well.

1156
01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:46,880
Speaker 2: But what he's told me is certain people will just

1157
01:00:47,000 --> 01:00:50,840
Speaker 2: do these coming out videos over and over. What do

1158
01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:54,040
Speaker 2: you mean so meaning they'll they'll do a video on

1159
01:00:54,120 --> 01:00:57,120
Speaker 2: YouTube and say, yeah, I just you know, I want

1160
01:00:57,160 --> 01:00:59,919
Speaker 2: to talk about the depression I had in high school.

1161
01:01:00,040 --> 01:01:02,240
Speaker 2: Now I almost feel myself. It was very hard and

1162
01:01:02,240 --> 01:01:04,439
Speaker 2: I've never shared this before, and you talk about it,

1163
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:09,360
Speaker 2: and then six months later they go, you know, that

1164
01:01:09,520 --> 01:01:12,840
Speaker 2: depression video works so well, they do it again. I

1165
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:15,440
Speaker 2: really talked about this much, but let me talk about

1166
01:01:15,600 --> 01:01:18,200
Speaker 2: some of the depression I suffered back in high school.

1167
01:01:18,560 --> 01:01:19,360
Speaker 2: They'll do it again.

1168
01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:22,840
Speaker 1: But that's okay. That's what my question is between like

1169
01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:27,200
Speaker 1: these lines of what is what is like a healthy

1170
01:01:27,480 --> 01:01:29,520
Speaker 1: or I don't even know if healthy is the right word,

1171
01:01:29,560 --> 01:01:32,400
Speaker 1: but an appropriate amount of narcissism and like what is

1172
01:01:32,440 --> 01:01:35,400
Speaker 1: the difference between what you just described and then like

1173
01:01:35,680 --> 01:01:39,160
Speaker 1: someone who's just authentically like when you say that, I

1174
01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:41,320
Speaker 1: started to think through what I've done because I'm pretty

1175
01:01:41,360 --> 01:01:44,760
Speaker 1: open about a lot of my life, but I always

1176
01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:49,360
Speaker 1: feel and I don't maybe I'm just completely not in

1177
01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:51,040
Speaker 1: touch with myself at all. I don't feel like that.

1178
01:01:51,160 --> 01:01:54,560
Speaker 1: But like what I feel is when I'm like it

1179
01:01:54,600 --> 01:01:57,720
Speaker 1: feels like connecting with people, and like when I feel

1180
01:01:58,080 --> 01:02:01,400
Speaker 1: in my authentic self, when I'm actually just being genuine

1181
01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:04,280
Speaker 1: about what's actually going on versus like trying to make

1182
01:02:04,320 --> 01:02:08,240
Speaker 1: my life seem perfect or presenting this perfect picture. And

1183
01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:11,240
Speaker 1: so for me, like I have been really open, but

1184
01:02:11,400 --> 01:02:13,760
Speaker 1: am I just like the way you made it sound

1185
01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:17,080
Speaker 1: just now is that people use that and kind of

1186
01:02:17,120 --> 01:02:21,000
Speaker 1: like I'm doing air quotes authenticity to get more followers,

1187
01:02:21,320 --> 01:02:24,000
Speaker 1: which doesn't feel authentic at all.

1188
01:02:24,160 --> 01:02:28,400
Speaker 2: Actually, So every time in nature there's something authentic, like

1189
01:02:28,440 --> 01:02:31,040
Speaker 2: a poisonous snake or the mass that makes you sick

1190
01:02:31,080 --> 01:02:33,520
Speaker 2: if you eat it, or a poisonous fish, there will

1191
01:02:33,560 --> 01:02:37,240
Speaker 2: be a mimic who will do the same thing because

1192
01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:41,240
Speaker 2: it works, but they won't have the authenticity. There'll be

1193
01:02:41,280 --> 01:02:44,160
Speaker 2: a butterfly that's poisonous that no one else eats so

1194
01:02:44,200 --> 01:02:45,800
Speaker 2: all the birds won't eat it, and then it'll bit

1195
01:02:45,840 --> 01:02:48,640
Speaker 2: another butterfly that looks kind of the same that's pretty.

1196
01:02:48,320 --> 01:02:50,480
Speaker 3: Healthy, okay.

1197
01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:54,520
Speaker 2: And so what happens is when you have something that

1198
01:02:54,560 --> 01:02:59,120
Speaker 2: people respond to, like authenticity at scale. So so talking about,

1199
01:02:59,400 --> 01:03:02,080
Speaker 2: you know, a very powerful thing. If you're willing to

1200
01:03:02,160 --> 01:03:06,320
Speaker 2: reveal things about yourself, people will respond to it. People

1201
01:03:06,360 --> 01:03:10,840
Speaker 2: will do that authentically because that's other wire. They feel

1202
01:03:10,880 --> 01:03:13,880
Speaker 2: that there's anyway they feel there's an authentic self and

1203
01:03:14,120 --> 01:03:20,160
Speaker 2: inauthentic self. Other people don't have that same wiring. They're

1204
01:03:20,200 --> 01:03:22,480
Speaker 2: more willing to kind of shift theirself around to the

1205
01:03:22,560 --> 01:03:25,520
Speaker 2: situation and in unless we see that it's sort of

1206
01:03:25,560 --> 01:03:29,680
Speaker 2: manipulative or inauthentic. But some sometimes that might not be.

1207
01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:32,720
Speaker 2: It's just that it could be called acting, and there

1208
01:03:32,720 --> 01:03:37,760
Speaker 2: could be a skill, and some people will will use

1209
01:03:37,960 --> 01:03:42,439
Speaker 2: acting to kind of get the same rewards. So rather

1210
01:03:42,520 --> 01:03:46,600
Speaker 2: than real tears, their tears might be inauthentic, but in

1211
01:03:46,640 --> 01:03:49,840
Speaker 2: their eyes, they're like, look it's working. I'm doing this

1212
01:03:49,960 --> 01:03:53,880
Speaker 2: performance and people are people are responding to it in

1213
01:03:53,920 --> 01:03:57,120
Speaker 2: an authentic, emotional way, just as like if I recited

1214
01:03:57,160 --> 01:04:02,160
Speaker 2: to play by Yates or play uh, George Martin's song

1215
01:04:02,280 --> 01:04:04,479
Speaker 2: to see the sad country guy. I'm trying, I'm sorry,

1216
01:04:04,600 --> 01:04:11,120
Speaker 2: trying to relate to your audience with George Martin, George Jones, George.

1217
01:04:12,400 --> 01:04:14,280
Speaker 1: George, Yes, yes, yes.

1218
01:04:15,680 --> 01:04:17,600
Speaker 2: I was going to. I mixed up a rat pack

1219
01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:23,920
Speaker 2: with a country pack, you know, but but you know,

1220
01:04:24,120 --> 01:04:27,439
Speaker 2: like you know, George Jones is that guy crying every

1221
01:04:27,440 --> 01:04:30,080
Speaker 2: time he sings the song? You know? The rooms in

1222
01:04:30,120 --> 01:04:33,760
Speaker 2: the house. I mean, it's it's performance, so right, So

1223
01:04:33,920 --> 01:04:36,240
Speaker 2: I like to think that there's a lot of room there,

1224
01:04:36,320 --> 01:04:38,760
Speaker 2: and you know, and some people are like, look, I

1225
01:04:38,800 --> 01:04:41,360
Speaker 2: can perform and really do this, and maybe I don't

1226
01:04:41,360 --> 01:04:43,600
Speaker 2: feel it, but I perform, and other people like I

1227
01:04:43,640 --> 01:04:50,800
Speaker 2: really wanted to be authentic, but that that connection of

1228
01:04:50,920 --> 01:04:54,240
Speaker 2: revealing parts of yourself is really an important way to

1229
01:04:54,280 --> 01:04:58,120
Speaker 2: form relationships. But everybody, you form them all the time.

1230
01:04:58,160 --> 01:05:00,240
Speaker 2: You sit there and you you know, you tell, and

1231
01:05:00,520 --> 01:05:02,360
Speaker 2: usually it works and you say, yeah, I hear something

1232
01:05:02,400 --> 01:05:05,200
Speaker 2: about myself, and I say, yeah, here's something about myself

1233
01:05:05,880 --> 01:05:08,880
Speaker 2: vulnerable too, and we both we both kind of share

1234
01:05:08,960 --> 01:05:11,000
Speaker 2: these things a little bit and get to know each other.

1235
01:05:12,000 --> 01:05:13,920
Speaker 2: So it's a it's a it's a really powerful way

1236
01:05:13,960 --> 01:05:16,160
Speaker 2: to bring people together. But I can use that on

1237
01:05:16,200 --> 01:05:17,880
Speaker 2: social media and to look, I'm going to share part

1238
01:05:17,920 --> 01:05:20,120
Speaker 2: of myself. Everyone in the audience is going, yeah, I'm

1239
01:05:20,120 --> 01:05:22,960
Speaker 2: going to share part of myself with you, And all

1240
01:05:22,960 --> 01:05:24,720
Speaker 2: of a sudden, I have like a thousand fans you

1241
01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:26,000
Speaker 2: think with buddies.

1242
01:05:26,040 --> 01:05:29,840
Speaker 1: Right, But aren't you kind of in some ways like

1243
01:05:29,920 --> 01:05:32,600
Speaker 1: I didn't you connect on the same on a level

1244
01:05:32,720 --> 01:05:34,080
Speaker 1: of understanding of each other.

1245
01:05:35,800 --> 01:05:39,360
Speaker 2: I mean, maybe you do, you know, I think so.

1246
01:05:39,480 --> 01:05:45,200
Speaker 2: I mean I have, you know, relationships with with artists

1247
01:05:45,320 --> 01:05:48,120
Speaker 2: and and that I who I've never met, but I

1248
01:05:48,160 --> 01:05:51,680
Speaker 2: feel like I understand their emotions. Yeah, you know. I

1249
01:05:51,760 --> 01:05:55,480
Speaker 2: listen to their lyrics and helps me understand how I'm feeling,

1250
01:05:57,720 --> 01:05:59,760
Speaker 2: you know. So I think I don't want to say

1251
01:05:59,800 --> 01:06:02,160
Speaker 2: all of stuff that's good or all this stuff is bad.

1252
01:06:02,280 --> 01:06:04,400
Speaker 2: I try to look at I try to look at

1253
01:06:04,400 --> 01:06:06,400
Speaker 2: things as much as possible as trade offs.

1254
01:06:06,760 --> 01:06:09,880
Speaker 1: Yeah. I actually really like that trade off piece. I

1255
01:06:09,880 --> 01:06:10,840
Speaker 1: think that's huge.

1256
01:06:11,840 --> 01:06:15,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, especially in you know, in businesses that involved, you know,

1257
01:06:15,560 --> 01:06:20,920
Speaker 2: being attractive and getting people to like you, right, just

1258
01:06:20,920 --> 01:06:22,880
Speaker 2: going to be a trade off and being in the

1259
01:06:22,920 --> 01:06:26,280
Speaker 2: public eye. It's really hard people You've talked about.

1260
01:06:26,000 --> 01:06:28,440
Speaker 1: That, Yeah, but I mean it can be even in

1261
01:06:28,560 --> 01:06:30,800
Speaker 1: everyday life, even if you're not in the public eye.

1262
01:06:30,880 --> 01:06:32,440
Speaker 1: Like you said, when you go to work, you might

1263
01:06:32,480 --> 01:06:35,080
Speaker 1: have to put on a certain demeanor that if you

1264
01:06:35,120 --> 01:06:38,280
Speaker 1: take home, is not going to consistently work in your

1265
01:06:38,280 --> 01:06:41,280
Speaker 1: relationships and so I think that's like an interesting the

1266
01:06:41,320 --> 01:06:43,360
Speaker 1: trade off piece or like you could be one way

1267
01:06:43,440 --> 01:06:46,560
Speaker 1: but maybe not all the time, Yes, and.

1268
01:06:46,920 --> 01:06:50,080
Speaker 2: Being flexible with you you are and saying look, I'm

1269
01:06:50,120 --> 01:06:53,480
Speaker 2: this way here, I'm this way here. Underneath it all,

1270
01:06:53,520 --> 01:06:55,840
Speaker 2: I try to be a moral, ethical person who wants

1271
01:06:55,920 --> 01:06:58,640
Speaker 2: to grow and be you know, learn and grow and

1272
01:06:58,800 --> 01:07:01,760
Speaker 2: yeah do good. And you know I have this broader self,

1273
01:07:01,840 --> 01:07:05,720
Speaker 2: but I'm willing to modify it in different environments to

1274
01:07:05,800 --> 01:07:07,720
Speaker 2: kind of get what I need and be a better person.

1275
01:07:08,200 --> 01:07:10,600
Speaker 1: Right, So what do we need to be on the lookout?

1276
01:07:10,640 --> 01:07:12,960
Speaker 1: Because I mean your book really kind of details the

1277
01:07:12,960 --> 01:07:14,880
Speaker 1: way you guys are measuring it these days. I do

1278
01:07:14,960 --> 01:07:17,320
Speaker 1: highly recommend this to you guys if you are interested

1279
01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:20,479
Speaker 1: in narcissism. It was very fascinating to me. You also

1280
01:07:20,600 --> 01:07:25,800
Speaker 1: really break down narcissism and relationships, which for me personally

1281
01:07:25,960 --> 01:07:27,200
Speaker 1: was a really great thing. I didn't know you had

1282
01:07:27,200 --> 01:07:29,720
Speaker 1: another book called When You Love a Man who Loves Himself.

1283
01:07:29,920 --> 01:07:35,080
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm going to order that, amuse immediately, go ahead.

1284
01:07:35,200 --> 01:07:37,520
Speaker 2: I would say I wrote that when You Love and

1285
01:07:37,960 --> 01:07:41,040
Speaker 2: Loves Himself. I wrote that when I was an assistant

1286
01:07:41,080 --> 01:07:45,480
Speaker 2: professor and I went to so many dinners with women

1287
01:07:45,520 --> 01:07:48,120
Speaker 2: who were like, you're talking about my ex husband. Yeah,

1288
01:07:48,160 --> 01:07:51,040
Speaker 2: you know, we're talking about my ex boyfriend. I just

1289
01:07:51,120 --> 01:07:52,800
Speaker 2: kind of wrote it so a little bit data, but

1290
01:07:52,880 --> 01:07:55,800
Speaker 2: it gets those ideas across. I think that was the

1291
01:07:55,880 --> 01:07:56,480
Speaker 2: goal is.

1292
01:07:58,160 --> 01:08:00,320
Speaker 1: Well, so what is it that we need to be

1293
01:08:00,520 --> 01:08:03,840
Speaker 1: on the lookout for situations like that, like in relationships

1294
01:08:03,880 --> 01:08:07,320
Speaker 1: and then also situations with yourself, Because, as I said,

1295
01:08:07,400 --> 01:08:10,000
Speaker 1: I was reading this book kind of noticing some things

1296
01:08:10,040 --> 01:08:11,720
Speaker 1: that I was like, hmmm, I do kind of do

1297
01:08:11,760 --> 01:08:14,680
Speaker 1: that sometimes and maybe I don't like love that about myself.

1298
01:08:15,000 --> 01:08:16,960
Speaker 1: So what should we be on the lookout And when

1299
01:08:17,040 --> 01:08:21,280
Speaker 1: is it a worrisome trait versus or when is it

1300
01:08:21,320 --> 01:08:24,400
Speaker 1: a just a part of your personality trait to then

1301
01:08:24,600 --> 01:08:26,920
Speaker 1: like a worrisome trait or maybe even in disorder.

1302
01:08:28,600 --> 01:08:34,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, So that looking at other people piece is hard

1303
01:08:34,400 --> 01:08:37,720
Speaker 2: because people who are really narcissistic don't often present that

1304
01:08:37,760 --> 01:08:40,599
Speaker 2: way if they want you to like them. So they

1305
01:08:40,680 --> 01:08:43,519
Speaker 2: might act that way if you're just waiting tables on them,

1306
01:08:44,080 --> 01:08:47,439
Speaker 2: but if you're in a dating situation or workplace you're

1307
01:08:47,520 --> 01:08:51,040
Speaker 2: hiring them, you know, you don't see it necessarily, right,

1308
01:08:51,320 --> 01:08:54,280
Speaker 2: So one big thing to do with people is just

1309
01:08:54,360 --> 01:08:57,960
Speaker 2: look at their history, and people who narcissistic love the

1310
01:08:58,080 --> 01:09:01,840
Speaker 2: history of rest relationships behind him. You'll see a trail

1311
01:09:01,920 --> 01:09:06,080
Speaker 2: of victims. If you look and you see this like

1312
01:09:06,120 --> 01:09:08,400
Speaker 2: with the meet too Stuck, you know, one name will

1313
01:09:08,439 --> 01:09:10,519
Speaker 2: come up and there'll be ten other names. Yeah, so

1314
01:09:11,200 --> 01:09:13,679
Speaker 2: there's often you know described it before as people are

1315
01:09:13,720 --> 01:09:16,920
Speaker 2: really narcissistic, almost being like hurricanes. They go through life

1316
01:09:16,960 --> 01:09:20,160
Speaker 2: and just leave a trail of destruction behind him and

1317
01:09:20,200 --> 01:09:22,120
Speaker 2: they might seem really appealing, but you go back and

1318
01:09:22,120 --> 01:09:26,840
Speaker 2: you'll see that trail. But it's hard to do in yourself.

1319
01:09:27,800 --> 01:09:32,680
Speaker 2: You know. In our research and student Chelsea Sleep did

1320
01:09:32,680 --> 01:09:34,400
Speaker 2: a lot of this work. It was great, but she

1321
01:09:34,560 --> 01:09:37,320
Speaker 2: asked people. You know, the idea was originally, you know,

1322
01:09:37,479 --> 01:09:40,320
Speaker 2: years ago, I thought people were narcissistic just didn't care,

1323
01:09:40,360 --> 01:09:42,240
Speaker 2: like I'm a dick, but I don't care. Yeah, I

1324
01:09:42,280 --> 01:09:46,400
Speaker 2: only care about myself. It doesn't really matter. And we

1325
01:09:46,439 --> 01:09:49,920
Speaker 2: looked at hundreds of people and it really seems like

1326
01:09:50,000 --> 01:09:52,759
Speaker 2: people in narcissistic see it. It can be a problem,

1327
01:09:52,800 --> 01:09:56,439
Speaker 2: and where they see that problem it's primarily interpersonal, meaning

1328
01:09:56,520 --> 01:09:59,439
Speaker 2: they just there's this idea, I don't have the law

1329
01:10:00,120 --> 01:10:03,920
Speaker 2: affection I need in my life. So they might say, yeah,

1330
01:10:03,920 --> 01:10:07,040
Speaker 2: I need more narcissism, but work, because I'm not successful enough.

1331
01:10:07,080 --> 01:10:10,040
Speaker 2: I need to be more aggressive, more competitive, more lookout

1332
01:10:10,080 --> 01:10:14,679
Speaker 2: for number one. But in my in my personal life,

1333
01:10:14,680 --> 01:10:18,880
Speaker 2: I want more love. And so my sense for people

1334
01:10:19,000 --> 01:10:23,240
Speaker 2: is if if you feel you're missing connection or emotional intimacy,

1335
01:10:24,880 --> 01:10:27,760
Speaker 2: your capacity for love is smaller than it should be.

1336
01:10:27,800 --> 01:10:29,519
Speaker 2: I think those are the things you can work on,

1337
01:10:30,240 --> 01:10:32,479
Speaker 2: and they're not going to mess up your work. You know,

1338
01:10:32,560 --> 01:10:34,680
Speaker 2: being a more loving person isn't going to make you

1339
01:10:34,720 --> 01:10:39,400
Speaker 2: a worse country music star, right, I mean make you better.

1340
01:10:40,280 --> 01:10:42,600
Speaker 2: It might actually make you better because there's going to

1341
01:10:42,640 --> 01:10:44,160
Speaker 2: be a you know, somebody's going to have to put

1342
01:10:44,160 --> 01:10:47,439
Speaker 2: together a production shoot for something. They're gonna say, yeah,

1343
01:10:47,439 --> 01:10:50,040
Speaker 2: I want Keith. He's not a total jerk. He's easy

1344
01:10:50,080 --> 01:10:52,960
Speaker 2: to get along with, right right, I don't want Keith,

1345
01:10:53,320 --> 01:10:54,960
Speaker 2: Or I don't want Keith because he's kind of a

1346
01:10:55,040 --> 01:10:58,600
Speaker 2: prima donna. Yeah, you know, we don't freaking diva. We

1347
01:10:58,640 --> 01:11:00,599
Speaker 2: don't need a diva on this side. We just need

1348
01:11:00,640 --> 01:11:05,639
Speaker 2: people who are cool, yeah, and work. They talk about

1349
01:11:05,640 --> 01:11:08,799
Speaker 2: this sometimes is the no asshole rule. If you're that phrase,

1350
01:11:09,520 --> 01:11:12,679
Speaker 2: book this is kind of a workplace version of it.

1351
01:11:12,680 --> 01:11:15,040
Speaker 2: It's not too much celebrity, but people. You know, there's

1352
01:11:15,040 --> 01:11:17,760
Speaker 2: even a book called the No Asshole Rule, but it's

1353
01:11:17,800 --> 01:11:20,679
Speaker 2: a policy in hiring where you say, look, even though

1354
01:11:20,800 --> 01:11:23,479
Speaker 2: no matter how calended this person is, if they're if

1355
01:11:23,520 --> 01:11:25,320
Speaker 2: they're kind of a jerk, I don't want them around.

1356
01:11:26,520 --> 01:11:29,720
Speaker 2: And so this is something organizations will use just as

1357
01:11:29,760 --> 01:11:32,320
Speaker 2: a screening device, like I don't you know, I don't

1358
01:11:32,320 --> 01:11:34,120
Speaker 2: care how good you are. You've got to be a

1359
01:11:34,160 --> 01:11:35,000
Speaker 2: decent human being.

1360
01:11:35,400 --> 01:11:37,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, So that.

1361
01:11:36,840 --> 01:11:40,360
Speaker 2: That interpersonal piece, being a nice person, getting along with people,

1362
01:11:40,439 --> 01:11:42,800
Speaker 2: that's where I really try to focus.

1363
01:11:43,080 --> 01:11:45,800
Speaker 1: Okay, I really like that. The book is called The

1364
01:11:45,800 --> 01:11:49,000
Speaker 1: New Science of Narcissism. It comes out September twenty ninth,

1365
01:11:49,600 --> 01:11:51,559
Speaker 1: doctor Campbell. Where else can people find you?

1366
01:11:54,240 --> 01:12:03,120
Speaker 2: W Keithcampbell dot com. Okay, website and Narcissism laud dot com.

1367
01:12:03,120 --> 01:12:05,920
Speaker 2: We put together a site with some of the narcissism

1368
01:12:06,000 --> 01:12:08,280
Speaker 2: tesla on there. If people want to try him. I

1369
01:12:08,280 --> 01:12:10,920
Speaker 2: think we've got three up there, the NPI and a

1370
01:12:11,040 --> 01:12:16,280
Speaker 2: vulnerable measure to those two places nice.

1371
01:12:16,320 --> 01:12:18,120
Speaker 1: Okay, well you guys go check him out. Like I said,

1372
01:12:18,160 --> 01:12:20,040
Speaker 1: The book comes out on September twenty ninth. I'm going

1373
01:12:20,080 --> 01:12:22,880
Speaker 1: to put the link to purchase it in my bio

1374
01:12:23,040 --> 01:12:27,080
Speaker 1: of this podcast, especially if you know anything about narcissism.

1375
01:12:27,120 --> 01:12:28,760
Speaker 1: I do feel like this book dives into like a

1376
01:12:28,760 --> 01:12:31,960
Speaker 1: little deeper of the study of how you guys are

1377
01:12:31,960 --> 01:12:34,200
Speaker 1: measuring it now, what you're learning. It was just it

1378
01:12:34,240 --> 01:12:37,879
Speaker 1: was very very interesting to me, So I really appreciate

1379
01:12:37,960 --> 01:12:40,479
Speaker 1: you being here and sharing all of that with us,

1380
01:12:40,720 --> 01:12:43,160
Speaker 1: and you guys go check out the book and thank

1381
01:12:43,160 --> 01:12:44,040
Speaker 1: you guys for listening.