WEBVTT - Mintz and Heim on Menendez's Bribery Case (Audio)

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<v Speaker 1>Will Democrat Robert Menendez of New Jersey become the first

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<v Speaker 1>sitting senator in nine years to become a felon. It

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<v Speaker 1>will be up to a jury of six women and

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<v Speaker 1>six men in Newark, New Jersey. Menendez is charged with

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<v Speaker 1>corruption and bribery for doing political favors for a doctor

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<v Speaker 1>in exchange for hundreds of thousands of dollars in campaign contributions,

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<v Speaker 1>lavish vacations, and other gifts. The doctor is being tried

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<v Speaker 1>with Menendez, his longtime friend. Following his indictment in April

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<v Speaker 1>of the senator has repeatedly maintained that he will be exonerated.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm angry because prosecutors at the Justice Department don't know

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<v Speaker 1>the difference between friendship and corruption and have chosen to

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<v Speaker 1>twist my duties as a senator and my friendship into

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<v Speaker 1>something that is improper. They are dead wrong, and I

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<v Speaker 1>am confident that they will be proven. So the political

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<v Speaker 1>stakes of the trial are high, with the potential loss

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<v Speaker 1>of a Senate seat for the Democrats. Our guests are

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<v Speaker 1>Robert Mints, the head of the White Collar and Political

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<v Speaker 1>Corruptions Unit, McCarter and English and a former federal prosecutor

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<v Speaker 1>and Robert him of Meersenheim, a former assistant regional director

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<v Speaker 1>of the SEC. Bob Mint. Since I see we have

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<v Speaker 1>two Bobs today, we'll have to go by both names.

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<v Speaker 1>Bob Mints tell us about the prosecution's case against Hernandez Shorten.

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<v Speaker 1>The prosecutions case UH includes a ten counts which are

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<v Speaker 1>charges of conspiracy, bribery, thefted on his services which is

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<v Speaker 1>essentially to pride and constituents of your honest services as

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<v Speaker 1>a elected public official, violating the Travel Act, which is

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<v Speaker 1>prohibiting traveling interstate or foreign travel in connection with committing

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<v Speaker 1>certain criminal acts, which in this case is bribery. What

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<v Speaker 1>the heart of the case really is about this long

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<v Speaker 1>running friendship between Center Mernandez and Dr Salomon Meligan, who

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<v Speaker 1>was an ophthalmologist in Florida and who contributed considerably to

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<v Speaker 1>Center Menendez's campaign, lavish gifts upon him, including expensive hotels,

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<v Speaker 1>trips to the Dominican republic um and then linked to that,

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<v Speaker 1>according to prosecutors, were various official acts which Centator Menendez

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<v Speaker 1>bestowed upon Dr Meligan in exchange for those gifts, and

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<v Speaker 1>those had to do with a number of disputes that

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<v Speaker 1>Dr Belgan was involved with one involving millions of dollars

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<v Speaker 1>for Medicare claims. He was an optimologist and had a

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<v Speaker 1>multimillion dollar Medicare claim with the federal government. He also

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<v Speaker 1>had a five hundred million dollar contract to spee with

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<v Speaker 1>the Dominican Republic. And the smaller issue, but one that

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<v Speaker 1>no doubt will be brought up at the trial because

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<v Speaker 1>there's a salacious element to it, was the allegation that

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<v Speaker 1>Center Menendez assisted with be the applications for Dr Meligan's girlfriends.

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<v Speaker 1>Bob Jeim, there's really not a lot of dispute. It

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't appear about the facts of the case in terms

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<v Speaker 1>of whether Senator Menendez did a lot of these things

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<v Speaker 1>for the doctor. What's his defense, Yes, that's a very

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<v Speaker 1>good point. There really is not a lot of factual

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<v Speaker 1>disputes between the parties, and the senator's defense is essentially

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<v Speaker 1>that he was acting as as a friend towards the

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<v Speaker 1>doctor and that what he was doing in terms of

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<v Speaker 1>the favors and other types of things did not rise

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<v Speaker 1>to the level of what is called an official act.

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<v Speaker 1>We have a well known Supreme Court case that came

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<v Speaker 1>out last year that involved the governor of Virginia Robert McDonald,

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<v Speaker 1>and what he what that case had held was that

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<v Speaker 1>it's really not enough to sustain a bribery conviction against

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<v Speaker 1>the public official if they're merely offering courtesies or doing

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<v Speaker 1>things such is setting up meetings or hosting events, that

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<v Speaker 1>more is required. And Senator um de Menendez's arguments has

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<v Speaker 1>always been that essentially the actions that he performed were

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<v Speaker 1>not official acts. They were just essentially courtesies and other

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<v Speaker 1>things that don't rise to the level of an official

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<v Speaker 1>act for purposes of the bribery statute. Bob Mints, is

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<v Speaker 1>it even clear at this point what an official act

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<v Speaker 1>is and what prosecutors have to prove now that has

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<v Speaker 1>been moneyed up quite a bit by the decision that

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<v Speaker 1>Bob just mentioned the McDonald's case. Uh. In that case,

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<v Speaker 1>the governor had set up meetings for a constituent as

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<v Speaker 1>an example, and that was held by the Supreme Court

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<v Speaker 1>to not be an official act for purposes of federal

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<v Speaker 1>bribery charges. I think what happened there was the Supreme

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<v Speaker 1>Court was worried that federal prosecutors were criminalizing routine political

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<v Speaker 1>conduct where politicians are are in fact supposed to assist

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<v Speaker 1>their constituents and set up meetings and help resolve issues.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think we're going to see the Menendez defense

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<v Speaker 1>feed right into that narrative where they're going to say

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<v Speaker 1>that the benefits that he provided to Dr Meligan were

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<v Speaker 1>simply assisting him in dealing with federal agencies and that

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<v Speaker 1>they were routine constituent services that were not tied to

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<v Speaker 1>any of the payments he received. They're also going to

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<v Speaker 1>point out to the fact that the decisions ultimately on

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<v Speaker 1>what to do for all of these issues, whether it

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<v Speaker 1>was the large Medicare claim or the dispute with the

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<v Speaker 1>Dominican Republic, were not decisions were ultimately made by Senator

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<v Speaker 1>Menendez himself. We're talking about the upcoming trial of Democratic

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<v Speaker 1>Senator Robert Menendez of New Jersey on charges of corruption

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<v Speaker 1>and bribery with Robert Mint's a partner McCarter and English,

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<v Speaker 1>and Robert him a partner at Myers and Heim Bob Mints.

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<v Speaker 1>A lot of it's been alleged, as we mentioned, is

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<v Speaker 1>factual and won't be disputed by the defense attorneys. But

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<v Speaker 1>how does the government go about proving that there was

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<v Speaker 1>a bribe that took place and that both men had

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<v Speaker 1>an agreement as to what that would mean without having

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<v Speaker 1>a cooperator or emails or something other than circumstantial evidence.

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<v Speaker 1>That's a great question, because I think prosecutors were hoping

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<v Speaker 1>to have that insider in the form of Dr Melligan.

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<v Speaker 1>Dr Melegan was recently prosecuted and convicted in the Southern

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<v Speaker 1>District of Florida last April two charges unrelated to this,

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<v Speaker 1>and is now facing a lengthy time in prison. You've

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<v Speaker 1>yet to be sentenced on that. Prosecutors were no doubt

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<v Speaker 1>hoping that that would convince him to cooperate in this

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<v Speaker 1>investigation and testify against Center Menendez. That that has not happened.

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<v Speaker 1>So they're left with a circumstantial case, as you say,

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<v Speaker 1>where they have to show that the gifts that were

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<v Speaker 1>given were given with the intent to affect these official acts.

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<v Speaker 1>And it's really a case of asking the jury to

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<v Speaker 1>get inside the head of Senor Menendez and determine exactly

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<v Speaker 1>what his intent was. And it really boils down to

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<v Speaker 1>the question of where does friendship end and corruption begin.

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<v Speaker 1>Was this done out of friendship or was this really

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<v Speaker 1>a relationship that was driven by campaign contributions and laps

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<v Speaker 1>shifts in exchange for the official acts that Senator Menendez

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<v Speaker 1>is charged with having done. On Dr Meligan's behalf well,

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<v Speaker 1>bob him. Given the the issues we're talking about here

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<v Speaker 1>on on proving what an official act is and the

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<v Speaker 1>difference between your official course of action your unofficial course

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<v Speaker 1>of action, how how good a chance does the government

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<v Speaker 1>have of actually convicting Senator Menendez here? Well, it's an

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<v Speaker 1>interesting question because Judge William Wallas, who is overseeing the trial,

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<v Speaker 1>has actually served his decision. Uh. Senator Menendez his attorneys

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<v Speaker 1>filed a motion to dismiss the superseding indictment as a

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<v Speaker 1>result of that Supreme Court decision, and the judge in

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<v Speaker 1>Senor Menendez case has um has not ruled on that,

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<v Speaker 1>and he said that he will rule on it after

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<v Speaker 1>the government has a chance to present all its evidence

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<v Speaker 1>and when it comes time for the decision. There's certain

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<v Speaker 1>acts that are very clearly counts to official acts, and

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<v Speaker 1>these would be things like selling your vote, um, something

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<v Speaker 1>of that nature, threatening to hold a committee hearing, um.

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<v Speaker 1>But beyond that it becomes quite murky in terms of

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<v Speaker 1>what will satisfy the standard. One of the items the

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<v Speaker 1>government has in its superseding indictment is a charge that

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<v Speaker 1>Senator Menendez threatened to hold hearings um if he didn't

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<v Speaker 1>get his way with respect to the pressure he was

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<v Speaker 1>placing on various agencies with regards to doctor um Melgin.

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<v Speaker 1>And we'll have to see if the government's evidence bears

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<v Speaker 1>out the charges that are laid out in the In

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<v Speaker 1>the indictment, Bodman's a jury of six women and six

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<v Speaker 1>men was chosen from a wide range of professions, from

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<v Speaker 1>a Moody's employee who helps rate debt on foreign countries

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<v Speaker 1>to a mail carrier. What would you be looking for

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<v Speaker 1>as a prosecutor in this case and what would you

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<v Speaker 1>be looking for as a defense attorney in a juror? Well,

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<v Speaker 1>I think the prosecutors are going to be looking for

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<v Speaker 1>a law and order type juror, somebody who tends to

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<v Speaker 1>see things as right or wrong, black and white. Um.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, perhaps someone with a military background, uh, certainly

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<v Speaker 1>people in law enforcement, but that general type of background.

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<v Speaker 1>The defense is going to be looking for people who

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<v Speaker 1>they hope will look past some of these allegations, which

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<v Speaker 1>will undoubtedly paint um Center Menendez in in somewhat of

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<v Speaker 1>an unflattering light. The lavish gifts and hotel stays and

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<v Speaker 1>that sort of thing. Could look beyond that and look

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<v Speaker 1>at him at his friendship with Dr Meligan, which undoubtedly

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<v Speaker 1>was a friendship the last to twenty years, and and

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<v Speaker 1>be receptive to the argument that this was simply a

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<v Speaker 1>friendship that was unrelated to the official acts that Senor

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<v Speaker 1>Menendez took on his behalf bob him. Are we dealing

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<v Speaker 1>here with another situation where we might have a jury

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<v Speaker 1>that thinks, you know, yeah, official acts whatever, this is

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<v Speaker 1>a he shouldn't have done this kind of stuff. He

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<v Speaker 1>was really doing favors he's a senator, this is bribery,

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<v Speaker 1>and Menendez actually has a better chance on appeal than

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<v Speaker 1>a than a trial. I think that's a very fair statement.

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<v Speaker 1>I think with your average juror when they hear about

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<v Speaker 1>these kind of CD allegations, and there's a tendency to

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<v Speaker 1>just say that the whole thing looks wrong, looks corrupt,

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<v Speaker 1>and vote to convict. What we're talking about here, um

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<v Speaker 1>on this panel or some very nuanced legal issues in

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<v Speaker 1>terms of what constitutes an official act and Supreme Court precedent,

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<v Speaker 1>And very often those types of detailed legal issues are

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<v Speaker 1>better addressed at the Court of Appeals or perhaps even

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<v Speaker 1>with the district court judge once he considers the defendant's

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<v Speaker 1>Robert menendez Is motion to dismiss the indictment. Well, Bob,

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<v Speaker 1>I'll ask that question in a different way. Would you

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<v Speaker 1>rather be on as far as winning, would you rather

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<v Speaker 1>be the prosecutor of the defense attorney in this case?

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<v Speaker 1>It's very hard to say at this point because the

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<v Speaker 1>government has not put in all of its evidence. I'd

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<v Speaker 1>say that the indictment lays out a fairly strong case,

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<v Speaker 1>especially on the one point where they allege that Senator

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<v Speaker 1>Menendez threatened to hold committee hearings if he didn't get

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<v Speaker 1>his way. I think if the prosecutors can prove that point,

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<v Speaker 1>that's going to be a very good one and a

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<v Speaker 1>hard one to assert by the defense that that does

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<v Speaker 1>not constitute an official action. Thank you both for being

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<v Speaker 1>on bloom Burg Law. That's Robert Heim, a partner at

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<v Speaker 1>Myers and Heim, and Robert Mints, a partner at McCarter

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<v Speaker 1>and English. Just also want to mention in this case

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<v Speaker 1>that Menendez is very high profile. Defense attorney Abby Lowell

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<v Speaker 1>successfully defended U S Senator John Edwards, who was accused

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<v Speaker 1>of violating campaign finance laws, convincing jurors that donors put

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<v Speaker 1>up money out of personal friendship, and there's a possibility

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<v Speaker 1>that Lowell may be using that in this case as well.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up on Bloomberg Law, Europe's method rules haven't even

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<v Speaker 1>kicked in yet, but the problems are apparent from every direction.

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<v Speaker 1>What the SEC is doing to prepare you're listening to

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Law, I'm June Grosso with Michael beston Greg Store.

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<v Speaker 1>This is Bloomberg