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Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome

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Speaker 1: back to the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always

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Speaker 1: so much for tuning in. Let's hear it for our

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Speaker 1: own Eugene V. Debs, the one and only super producer.

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Speaker 1: Mr Max Williams. Let's have a dab for our own

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Speaker 1: Debs Max Williams. Everybody do a dad right now together.

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Speaker 1: I hope you're doing it too while you're listening folks.

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Speaker 1: Uh and if your friends ask you, tell them about

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Speaker 1: the show they called me, Ben would joined as always

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Speaker 1: with my ride or die. Uh. Mr Noel Down none

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Speaker 1: other Hello, sorry for the lack and responding to your

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Speaker 1: amazing big up of myself, Mr Noel Brown, the one

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Speaker 1: and only. I guess that's true. You know it's funny though,

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Speaker 1: Ben Um, I've I've grown up with a name like

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Speaker 1: Noel and you don't get a lot of knowles in America.

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Speaker 1: But the only ones that I know of are from

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Speaker 1: the UK, and they're relatively famous. There's no old Fielding

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Speaker 1: from the Mighty Bush and the Great British bakeoff fame.

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Speaker 1: You got your Noel Gallagher, you got your Nol Coward.

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Speaker 1: What are some other fame anybody know any other famous knowles.

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Speaker 1: There's the first Noel, of course, Jesus Christ himself. There's

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Speaker 1: also a good friend of good friend of mine, I think,

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Speaker 1: good friend of yours as well, uh Noel who is

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Speaker 1: uh Noel Flores, who is one of the marketing DEMI

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Speaker 1: gods an event quartering coordinators here at my Heart Media.

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Speaker 1: Of course, it's awesome, excellent taste in leather jackets. Oh

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Speaker 1: my god, are you kidding? Are you kidding? Max? This

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Speaker 1: is the person who will lead us to the correct

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Speaker 1: leather jackets. I've been so weirded out for for many years.

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Speaker 1: Are good friend Mr Matt Frederick of stuff they don't

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Speaker 1: want you to know. And numerous true crime podcast has

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Speaker 1: had this amazing leather jacket. I've asked them, you know, like,

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Speaker 1: how do I how do I commit to this? How

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Speaker 1: do I get a good leather jacket? And one time

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Speaker 1: Matt told me something like, well, you see it, you

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Speaker 1: try it on, and when you know, you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: just yeah. Some things run small, some things run large.

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Speaker 1: It's all about what fits you. And I really do

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Speaker 1: envy the big wigs, the types that Eugene Debs might

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Speaker 1: have been fighting against that get tailored suits, although in

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Speaker 1: this day and age most anybody can afford a tailored suit.

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Speaker 1: You can get well what does that uh that tailored

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Speaker 1: suit company that we used to do up the weather

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Speaker 1: suits supply and it's still ain't cheap. Yeah exactly, that's

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Speaker 1: the one. It still ain't cheap, but it really man,

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Speaker 1: the difference between like a suit off the act that fits.

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Speaker 1: That sounds like I'm chilling for suit makers, but the

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Speaker 1: difference is is night and day. Now. I got a

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Speaker 1: black window pane suit earliest year, Taylor, and it was

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Speaker 1: like throwing someone bucks for them about at all. And

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Speaker 1: if it's great, it looks great, it looks great, if

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Speaker 1: it's great, yeah, well this is uh, this is the

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Speaker 1: time where we want to thank everybody who didn't write

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Speaker 1: a review immediately saying, ah, these guys, these guys with

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Speaker 1: their banter. We hope, we hope that you enjoy it.

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Speaker 1: We love, of course your opinions, ridiculous historians on everything

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Speaker 1: addressed in the show, whether or not it is, you know,

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Speaker 1: officially part of the episode. But we have been and

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Speaker 1: we've been through a heck of a week. We've got

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Speaker 1: a we've got a book coming out or out now

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Speaker 1: called stuff they don't want you know? For another podcast, Nolan,

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Speaker 1: I do. And that book has been met with pretty

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Speaker 1: great reviews. So if you want to review something, uh,

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Speaker 1: please do go review that on Amazon. There's other big

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Speaker 1: news before we get to debts. Oh my god, can

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Speaker 1: I say one? I got the book? Um my aunts

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Speaker 1: or I guess my aunt in law. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: She's my uncle's ex wife. What does that make her?

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Speaker 1: No idea? It was a librarian as a retired librarian

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Speaker 1: and commented on a post that I made about the

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Speaker 1: book and had seen the reviews in Kirkus Review and

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Speaker 1: I think book there's another one there was a second one,

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Speaker 1: and said that like those are the go to review

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Speaker 1: sites for librarians choosing things to buy for libraries or

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Speaker 1: to include in libraries. So that's pretty great man, good job, Ben.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we did it together to a degree. But man,

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Speaker 1: it's in your voice. You knocked it out of the park.

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Speaker 1: It's just such a fun reading. I'm just so proud

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Speaker 1: of you. Man. Man, I'm proud. I'm proud of all

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Speaker 1: of us. You know. Also, it's so weird you mentioned this. No,

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Speaker 1: my I have an aunt, I have many teachers and

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Speaker 1: educators in my family, and one of my who lives

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Speaker 1: out in Austin, Texas, is a librarian and said something similar.

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Speaker 1: So at least we're at least we're going with the

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Speaker 1: crowd of the people. We really want to impress the literati,

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Speaker 1: the literati. Yes, just so. And this is the second

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Speaker 1: part of a two part episode on a guy that

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Speaker 1: may not be familiar to a lot of Americans today,

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Speaker 1: but a person who has certainly affected your life if

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Speaker 1: you live in the US and you're hearing this now.

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Speaker 1: His name Eugene V. Debs, Debs to his friends, his

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Speaker 1: street name Max's Daddy, because in addition to being our

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Speaker 1: super producer, Yeah, it's at the top, Max. Uh. Max

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Speaker 1: took points on this real on the research for this.

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Speaker 1: So Max, we're gonna defer to you along the way,

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Speaker 1: but I wanted to I think, just in the interest

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Speaker 1: of transparency, we need to hit that you describe Eugene

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Speaker 1: Debs in the title of our research here as Max's daddy,

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Speaker 1: as your spiritual father. What's going on. I really like

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Speaker 1: Eugene Redebs. I learned about him. I think I took

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Speaker 1: an ap U s history class in high school, and

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Speaker 1: that's like the first time I learn about him, he's

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Speaker 1: not really someone gets talked to you and like, you know,

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Speaker 1: your traditional public education classes. Yeah yeah, but like you

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Speaker 1: know that that, I mean, that's the class week you

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Speaker 1: really get to dive into it and it's like, wow,

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Speaker 1: this guy's kind of important. Uh So, Yeah, it was

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Speaker 1: you know, learning about like how this guy is really

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Speaker 1: influential on all of our lives, especially before his stuff

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Speaker 1: like social Security and the right to unionize and stuff

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Speaker 1: like that. I've always been a big fantast guy. And

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Speaker 1: can I just add to that, Max, you have been

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Speaker 1: part of the effort of iHeart producers employees in the

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Speaker 1: podcast network to do that very thing. And I can't

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Speaker 1: imagine that you would have been as interested in that

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Speaker 1: or you know, schooled if you hadn't discovered Eugene Debs

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Speaker 1: early in your you know career. Yeah. No, it's definitely

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Speaker 1: been a part. I mean, I've I will say, like

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Speaker 1: you know, I was raised I think first generation and

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Speaker 1: white college is probably the best way to describe it.

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Speaker 1: Both my parents have white colored jobs that they were

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Speaker 1: raised in the very blue color like Detroit area. Uh

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Speaker 1: I would, I mean many many people from union jobs

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Speaker 1: and stuff like that, and that's how like towns like

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Speaker 1: not towns, cities like that, we're able to you know,

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Speaker 1: people have these livelihoods, to the kind of families and

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Speaker 1: not be like, you know, so tied of money all

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Speaker 1: the time because they were able to get you know,

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Speaker 1: fair and equal pay and wages and stuff. So it's there,

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Speaker 1: there's it's stuff that I very much believe in and

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Speaker 1: everything like that. It's no accident or maybe somewhat of

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Speaker 1: an accident that We also just recently did an episode

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Speaker 1: on the Luddites and the you know, fabric or textile workers.

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Speaker 1: Early in that industry, there were certain skilled workers who

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Speaker 1: could kind of name their name, their price and and

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Speaker 1: and could really command a lot of um, you know,

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Speaker 1: perks and things like that. And then as industrials nation

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Speaker 1: took hold, that became less of a thing. And I

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Speaker 1: think the reason unions are important is to kind of

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Speaker 1: re level the playing field and make sure that those

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Speaker 1: in power and those that kind of have their hands

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Speaker 1: on the purse strings and all of that aren't able

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Speaker 1: to just you know, completely diminish the idea of of

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Speaker 1: a fair wage and uh and treat people just like

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Speaker 1: human capital. And that's a struggle that continues. You know,

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Speaker 1: uh here in twenty two if you live in the

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Speaker 1: United States, fell ridiculous historians, you have to be aware.

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Speaker 1: This isn't a political point that most other nations. This

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Speaker 1: is true story. Most other nations have uh much better

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Speaker 1: maternity leave or paternity leave, things like that. The again,

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Speaker 1: the struggle continues. And wherever you find yourself on the

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Speaker 1: political platform, I'm gonna go ahead and take a wild guess.

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Speaker 1: Don't kill me in the reviews here, I would take

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Speaker 1: a while. Guests, you like things like weekends, uh, and

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Speaker 1: you like things like fair pay. So this is something

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Speaker 1: that happens that that happens with Debs. When we left

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Speaker 1: Debs in part one on Thursday of our show, we

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Speaker 1: had we had left him right around the time that

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Speaker 1: he was learning some would say being radicalized huh in

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Speaker 1: jail while incarcerated. At this time, still he said that

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Speaker 1: he was still thinking of himself, maybe more as an

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Speaker 1: Americanist rather than a socialist. But here's where we find

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Speaker 1: him now. It is eighteen nineties six, and he is

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Speaker 1: endorsing a US presidential candidate named William Jennings Bryant, and

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Speaker 1: Brian is doing something really interesting in his campaign. He's

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Speaker 1: running on multiple tickets. Yes, he he's running on the

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Speaker 1: Democratic ticket. He's also running on the ticket of something

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Speaker 1: called the People's Party. Spoiler alert for any non presidential campaign.

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Speaker 1: Buffs Brian doesn't win. He loses to a guy called

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Speaker 1: William McKinley. And William McKinley is funded by some of

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Speaker 1: the very same business entities that sought to break Deb's

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Speaker 1: union movements with railroad workers. That's right, and um, if

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Speaker 1: I'm not mistaken, Max, this whole thread in the story

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Speaker 1: is maybe what led this to being considered ridiculous because

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Speaker 1: of the some of the situations that the Debs found

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Speaker 1: himself in while also running a presidential campaign. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's some of the um, these guys you know who

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Speaker 1: are supporting with people like McKinley don't exactly like things

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Speaker 1: that Dev's is doing and saying, and some most actually

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Speaker 1: basically all of which are not bad in my opinion,

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Speaker 1: but it's kind of I would say the ridiculousness of

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Speaker 1: this story is the amount that Debs wants to help people,

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Speaker 1: no matter how much consequences he face this for it. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think that's well said. You know this there's a

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Speaker 1: thing that people started saying that was circulating the zeitgeist

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Speaker 1: of the time, and folks would say, well, President McKinley

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Speaker 1: was elected by money and Brian was the people's candidate.

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Speaker 1: William Jennings. Bryan, by the way, is worth an episode

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Speaker 1: all his own. I think we can agree. Here's what happens.

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Speaker 1: This is enough to really sour debs. Our boy Jean

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Speaker 1: sees what he um what from his perspective is systemic,

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Speaker 1: dangerous corruption. The system is raw eight from within, like

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Speaker 1: a like a wound that creates gang green. And so

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Speaker 1: he says, this two party system, this Democrat Republican thing,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of a con job, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: It's sort of a trap. It's a false dichotomy. And

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Speaker 1: to this end, he proclaims himself publicly as a socialist.

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Speaker 1: In one of several Railway magazines periodicals he writes for

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Speaker 1: it's January, first New Year's date. He comes out and

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Speaker 1: he says, the result of the November election has convinced

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Speaker 1: every intelligent wage worker that in politics per se, there

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Speaker 1: is no hope of emancipation from the degrading curse of

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Speaker 1: wage slavery. I am for socialism because I am for humanity.

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Speaker 1: And this is a quote we mentioned in part one.

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Speaker 1: He goes on, money constitutes no proper basis for civilization.

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Speaker 1: Arguably true. You don't have to agree, but he makes

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Speaker 1: some good points. Uh definitely does. In that June at

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Speaker 1: the yearly meeting of the American Railway Union, Debs made

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Speaker 1: a big splash by founding the Social Democracy of America Party.

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Speaker 1: And as parties sometimes do, whether it's political or just

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Speaker 1: you know, get together things, people break away, they go

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Speaker 1: their own way. They have their little clicks that form.

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Speaker 1: And so the Social Democracy of America Party splintered and

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Speaker 1: Victor berger Um and Debs joined what ultimately became the

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Speaker 1: Social Democratic Party. And then there's another evolution, right in

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Speaker 1: nineteen o one, this outfit become starts calling itself the

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Speaker 1: Socialist Party of America. And Debs has uh, Debs has

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Speaker 1: some rousing quotes. Again, he's a great orator, right, He's

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Speaker 1: a he's a political writer. He's a fantastic speaker. He's

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Speaker 1: one of those guys who start shouting and his forehead

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Speaker 1: and his temples get the veins popping out, and you know, he's,

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Speaker 1: as we would say in the American South, he takes

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Speaker 1: people to church when he speaks, and he really does. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and we've got this, We've got this other quote here

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Speaker 1: he he equates socialism. One of the prime things that

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Speaker 1: he sees as a tenet of socialism is public ownership

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Speaker 1: over what are called the means of production. Uh No,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to put you on the spot, but

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Speaker 1: I do want us to trade off really cool like

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Speaker 1: lamb basting, galvanizing quotes from our boy geen. So how

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Speaker 1: could you do uh we the people of favor and uh,

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Speaker 1: maybe give us give us an approach of this quotation

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Speaker 1: from his speech to minors in Illinois and Kansas, aroused

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Speaker 1: from your slavery, join the Social Democratic Party and vote

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Speaker 1: with us to take possession of the minds of the

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Speaker 1: country and operate them in the interests of the people.

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Speaker 1: That's me clapping, clapping too. Multiply that though by like

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Speaker 1: the voice of the people, you know, and then you

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Speaker 1: have a truly rousing round of applause, and envision a

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Speaker 1: lot of veins popping out while he's saying it. Many

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Speaker 1: so many also people are loving these sorts of speeches.

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Speaker 1: He is so supported in these crowds that you could

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Speaker 1: imagine people weren't just clapping, but while they were clapping,

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Speaker 1: they were probably just yelling the word clap. They were like, clap, clap, clap, clap, clup, clap, clap, clap, clappy, clap, clap.

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Speaker 1: Just pop some coconuts. Yeah, there we go. So his um,

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Speaker 1: his socialism. Remember, now he's gone from what he described

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Speaker 1: as Americaism, making a very good point about America the

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Speaker 1: United States itself, rather being a consequence of going on strike.

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Speaker 1: Right when you think about it, he went from Americanism

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Speaker 1: to now socialism. But his critics said this was too idealistic.

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Speaker 1: They said, you know what you should. They call it

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Speaker 1: it is impossibleism, which is a funny word, and he said, uh.

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Speaker 1: They were saying, look that what you were doing will

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Speaker 1: What you're proposing is never gonna work. It doesn't have

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Speaker 1: much to do with actual Marxism or communism. It's more

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Speaker 1: like this weird, utopian, Walt Whitman esque religious approach, to

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Speaker 1: which he responded, watching socialism merely Christianity and action. It's

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Speaker 1: recognizes the equality in men, which is pretty dope. That's

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Speaker 1: pretty cool rapost pretty cool response. Um. But again, of course,

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Speaker 1: not everyone agreed with him, especially if they had a

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Speaker 1: lot of money and we're sort of vibing with the

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Speaker 1: status quo. Well, we're in a political cycle right now.

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Speaker 1: We were just talking about this, the three of us off,

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Speaker 1: Mike and Uh. I think we've all been subject to

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Speaker 1: a lot of very alarmist um political advertisements on like

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Speaker 1: Hulu and various streaming services. And I bet you that

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Speaker 1: at the time there might have been some who might

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Speaker 1: have called Deb's radical liberal Eugene Debs wants to take

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Speaker 1: away your jobs because he's asking for these unreasonable request

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Speaker 1: these unreasonable terms, you know, And it's sort of like

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Speaker 1: like shifting the narrative saying, you know, okay, I am

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Speaker 1: the you know, big wig that owns the means of production,

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Speaker 1: and it's just not realistic for the working people to

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Speaker 1: have this kind of protection. And it's almost saying demonizing

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Speaker 1: someone like Deb's for even asking for such So it's

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Speaker 1: a way of like flipping the narrative and saying, like,

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Speaker 1: we're the ones giving you jobs. Do you really want

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Speaker 1: to piss us off? Like I mean without saying that

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Speaker 1: exactly right. Yeah, Yeah, it's like, hey, be a shame

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Speaker 1: if something happened to the existence who currently have uh,

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Speaker 1: so so he starts running for president himself. He's gone

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Speaker 1: beyond polling for other people and hyping them up. Right,

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Speaker 1: It's like he has started his own political solo album.

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Speaker 1: And spoiler, he doesn't do super well, but he does

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Speaker 1: get some He does garner some attention. In nine hundred,

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Speaker 1: he runs for president. And when he runs for president,

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Speaker 1: Gene gets about nineties six thousand votes. Just for um

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Speaker 1: a sense of perspective. According to the census conducted the

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Speaker 1: same year in nineteen hundred, the population of the US

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Speaker 1: was seventy six point three million. So he's not you know,

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Speaker 1: he's not exactly busting down the door. Uh. Then, okay,

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Speaker 1: so he loses that election. Fast forward four years he

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Speaker 1: runs again. You know, he's kind of getting one of

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Speaker 1: those uh I can do this all day sort of

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Speaker 1: tropes attached to him. This time he gets four hundred

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Speaker 1: thousand votes, So that's a heck of a jump, but

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Speaker 1: it's still not enough to swing the needle. I love

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Speaker 1: the idea of swinging the needle um and moving the pendulum.

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Speaker 1: I think it's great. And that's right, no, you got

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Speaker 1: me fair play. Yeah. So he also joined in with

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Speaker 1: other union folks who might have been considered radical or

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Speaker 1: militant at the time to create something and organize something

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Speaker 1: called the Industrial Workers of the World or the i

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Speaker 1: w W again um a f l C I oh

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Speaker 1: is an excellent resource for this information in addition to

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Speaker 1: being an excellent organization. Him uh that that protects a

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Speaker 1: lot of these very things that we're talking about. Um,

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Speaker 1: I love this. The Wobblies a term used to refer

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Speaker 1: to the Industrial Workers of the World because they called

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Speaker 1: on all workers to join a massive, single union like

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Speaker 1: that would kind of be this like overarching umbrella and

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Speaker 1: sees control of those means of production. And if anyone

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Speaker 1: follows any communist or socialist kind of meme pages, the

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Speaker 1: idea of seizing the means of production is sort of

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Speaker 1: a three point and a lot of those it can't

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Speaker 1: actually be used sort of hilariously, and a lot of

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Speaker 1: these memes Oh yeah yeah man uh. This is also

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Speaker 1: first off, there's a lot to be said about nomenclature

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Speaker 1: and branding. Even even back then it was it was

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Speaker 1: very much the same. For some reason, it seems weird,

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Speaker 1: right when they to hear this group that wants to

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Speaker 1: be a very much power to the people movement say

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Speaker 1: you know what's depending well, you know what will make

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Speaker 1: people associate us with steadfastness and doggedness and being on

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Speaker 1: the course. Let's just establish that we're wobbly. Let's let

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Speaker 1: people know that we're sort of on a on a

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Speaker 1: teetering thing. Uh, that's just my you know, that's just

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Speaker 1: my branding marketing note there. But this was huge and

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Speaker 1: as you can imagine, it terrified the people in power, right,

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Speaker 1: the international set, uh, the banking interest, of course, mining interest,

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Speaker 1: resource extractors. They couldn't let this happen. And Debs. Debs

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Speaker 1: was a guy who was, you know, a real barn

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Speaker 1: stormer of a speaker, but maybe not always the most

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Speaker 1: diplomatic or collaborative person. He could be quite argumentative. He

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Speaker 1: resigned from the Wobblies in nine eight and ran for president.

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Speaker 1: Ran for US president a third time, but he plateaus

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Speaker 1: a little, not in a bad way. He's just nineteen

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Speaker 1: o four, he gets four hunder thousand votes. Nineteen o eight,

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Speaker 1: he's still again not swinging the needle or moving the pendulum.

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Speaker 1: H and later elections are occurring. He still hasn't given up.

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Speaker 1: Nineteen ten, nineteen twelve, Right, there are congressional elections, and

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Speaker 1: a lot of Socialist Party members are actually victorious in

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Speaker 1: their state and local elections, and this inspires depths. You know,

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Speaker 1: he's always thinking it's bigger than me. He's saying, this

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Speaker 1: is our year in nineteen twelve, and in nineteen twelve,

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Speaker 1: he's not just blowing smoke. Almost a million Americans voted

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Speaker 1: for him for president. And just for a reference there,

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Speaker 1: in nineteen twelve, the US population had grown pretty significantly

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Speaker 1: to nine five million people, so still not a huge percentage. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and jump in there to kind of put this in

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Speaker 1: framing it to like how he wasn't that far out

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Speaker 1: on this one. Obviously he only got he got six

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Speaker 1: percent of the vote, which is significant. Obviously, No, we're

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Speaker 1: close to winning. This is also a really weird election

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Speaker 1: where there was basically three major party candidates. There was

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Speaker 1: William Howard Taff, Theodore Roosevelt who decided to come out

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Speaker 1: of retirement and run against Taff, and then our all

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Speaker 1: time favorite president on this podcast, Mr Woodrow Wilson, our

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Speaker 1: boy who at home is in my hometown. I think

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Speaker 1: I may be mentioned that last episode. But not a

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Speaker 1: great guy, right, what's the deal? He seems so innocuous

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Speaker 1: and little and slight and bald. But can you explain,

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Speaker 1: Max and or Ben why this guy kind of sucked?

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Speaker 1: We can absolutely explain why he sucks. I would suggest

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Speaker 1: reading articles like Talking Points, Memo dot com Woodrew Wilson

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Speaker 1: was even worse than you think, or National Interest dot org.

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Speaker 1: Why Woodrow Wilson is America's worst president ever. Now that's

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Speaker 1: a hot take, because there's a contest that's been going

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Speaker 1: on for many, many years to figure out who was,

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Speaker 1: in fact the worst president ever. Uh Noel, will do

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Speaker 1: you one better than this one? Uh Man. At the

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Speaker 1: very end of today's show, uh Max has prepared a

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Speaker 1: special segment, a hit list of bad things about Woodrow Wilson.

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Speaker 1: So if you if you feel like we're talking too

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Speaker 1: much about the nuts and bolts of Eugene V. Debs,

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Speaker 1: hold on. There is quite a spiteful dessert at the end.

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Speaker 1: And it is spiteful dessert. Is it best served cold?

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Speaker 1: Of course it is? Yes, yeah, and maybe it was?

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Speaker 1: And so uh with Debs? Uh he with Deb's we

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Speaker 1: see exactly what you described, Max. It's the presidential campaign

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Speaker 1: is kind of a bowl of spaghetti. Right, we're looking

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Speaker 1: at high human drama here, there's something else interesting that occurs.

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Speaker 1: The Democratic and Republican parties are starting to crib some

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Speaker 1: notes and policies from socialists. So we see them embracing

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Speaker 1: what we're considered progressive reforms at this time, giving women

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Speaker 1: the vote, busting up huge trust that's where you know,

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Speaker 1: like one company, one entity functionally owns all of an industry,

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Speaker 1: doing economic reforms, saying stuff like people can only work

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Speaker 1: up to a certain amount per week or per month,

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Speaker 1: people can only get paid to a certain low threshold

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Speaker 1: minimum wage we call it now. And and these were

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Speaker 1: novel ideas at the time, right, Like, I mean, because

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Speaker 1: a lot of these things were kind of new ish.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the trusts and the giants. Conglomo has really

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Speaker 1: began with things like the railroad, which Eugene Dev's had

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Speaker 1: been in on since the start least in terms of,

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Speaker 1: you know, arguing for fair treatment of workers. But this

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Speaker 1: was not something that had been just like, you know,

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Speaker 1: decades uh in the making, right Yeah, this is this

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Speaker 1: is a signal from the mainstream and their industrial puppet

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Speaker 1: masters that they need to give a little to get

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Speaker 1: what they want to maintain their economic power and status

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Speaker 1: quo and social hierarchies. So they also say no more

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Speaker 1: child labor, and hey, maybe you should be able to

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Speaker 1: directly vote for your senator instead of just trusting us. Uh,

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Speaker 1: there's a guy against that right now, the guy to

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Speaker 1: running to get rid of that one. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm where you know what I mean. It's it's always

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Speaker 1: halloween in America, man, So the yeah, because people wear

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Speaker 1: masks year round. I guess that what you're getting that

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Speaker 1: that's sort of good. Yeah, and it's spooky, you know.

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Speaker 1: You could you could say there's a bit of a

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Speaker 1: haunted house. And that is an a political point. America

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Speaker 1: is always the United States rather has always been a

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Speaker 1: grand experiment, one long improv game. So Deb's is saying

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Speaker 1: Deb's is championing socialism. Nineteen twelve is what that New

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Speaker 1: Yorker article we we mentioned earlier by Jill Lapour nineteen

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Speaker 1: twelve is what you could call the high water mark

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Speaker 1: of socialism in the United States. And it had done

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Speaker 1: something very important that doesn't often get talked about. While

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Speaker 1: there was not a socialist president elected, it changed the

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Speaker 1: trajectory of the two major parties. The folks who already

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Speaker 1: held the power started to make some concessions to you know,

424
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 1: for what they saw is the greater good, which was

425
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 1: them retaining some measure of power. Deb's get sick. He's

426
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 1: not feeling great. He is actually too ill to run

427
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 1: a national campaign in nineteen sixteen, because you know, right

428
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 1: when we think about it, and all these these guys

429
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 1: who are running for any political office on a federal

430
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,919
Speaker 1: or national level, they have to travel a lot. They

431
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 1: can't go on zoo. Sure, can I ask one more question? Um?

432
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,639
Speaker 1: At this time, the idea of socialism didn't have as

433
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 1: much political kind of buzzy nous that it does today

434
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 1: because we weren't necessarily fighting with the Soviet Union like

435
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 1: we are. You know that that legacy was not as

436
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 1: asconced as established. So it wasn't like when someone established

437
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 1: the Socialist Party or said I believe in the teachings

438
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 1: of of Marx and Angles or whatever. They weren't immediately

439
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 1: demonized the way they might be today because of our

440
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 1: you know, uh beef with Russia in the Soviet Union.

441
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 1: So not yet. And what's crazy is we are literally

442
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:00,719
Speaker 1: getting on the timeline to that point right right now,

443
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 1: because the Bolshevik Revolution is nineteen seventeen, so we're one

444
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 1: year away from really like you know, you see this

445
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 1: major world power get their entire government overthrown but behind

446
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 1: socialist and communist ideas and stuff like that. And that's

447
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 1: when you know, we start getting like the first like

448
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 1: red scare that is about to come up in this

449
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 1: time period. And then later of course this will we'll

450
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 1: see this reflected in McCarthy ism. Right, So history history

451
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 1: is a quickly, right, Like, I mean, this whole demonization

452
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 1: happened quickly. The Red Scare was something that escalated very

453
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 1: quickly and became this kind of witch hunt within our country. Yeah, yeah,

454
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 1: and this there are multiple Red scares throughout the history

455
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 1: of the United States as well as Europe, and uh,

456
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 1: to Max's student point, there may well be another one

457
00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 1: on the way. Why why we're people scared of this? Well,

458
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 1: Debs thinks they're scared of it because, uh, there are

459
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 1: people who are totally fine morally and ethically with damning

460
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 1: the majority of a population into something very much like

461
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 1: servitude because it will make their individual lives a little

462
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 1: bit nicer. Since he can't traps around the country running

463
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 1: for president, he runs for Congress in his home district.

464
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 1: A lot less travel Uh. He comes in second. He

465
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 1: doesn't win. Um, he is not he doesn't become a

466
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 1: congress person, and he's also a very distant second. The

467
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 1: person who ends up beating him is a Republican and

468
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 1: they get way, way, way, way more votes. Other socialist

469
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 1: candidates are encountering something very similar in their neck of

470
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 1: the woods. And it looks like his big dream of

471
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 1: creating a union for all railroad workers and then expanding

472
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 1: to a union of the people of every worker, it

473
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 1: looks like it's not gonna happen. Okay, So now we're

474
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 1: back to Woodrow Wilson and why he sucks. Uh. In

475
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 1: nineteen seventeen, President Woodrow Wilson, who was really only president

476
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 1: because Teddy Roosevelt's um, decided to come out of retirement

477
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 1: and essentially, you know, wave around his big stick and

478
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 1: speak very loudly actually uh and essentially sabotage the nineteen

479
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 1: twelve election. Uh. Wilson asked Congress to declare war on

480
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 1: Imperial Germany and everything that went along with that, all

481
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 1: of its allies. Um. This was in response to what

482
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 1: the a f l c I O refers to as

483
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 1: vituperative opposition. I need a little help with that one, fellas. Yeah,

484
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 1: vituperative position means blame worthy. Basically that they like Congress

485
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 1: in this sense, is being being blamed or attacked for

486
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 1: their plan. And uh, they're being rightfully attacked because the

487
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 1: US is supposed to be a representative democracy, which means

488
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 1: that in theory, the US goes to war when the

489
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:33,720
Speaker 1: domestic population supports it. But because Congress is kind of

490
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 1: getting caught with their hands in the military industrial complex

491
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,960
Speaker 1: cookie jar of the day, they passed something called the

492
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 1: Espionage Act. The Espionage Act says it is against the

493
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 1: law to have a problem with the US getting involved

494
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 1: in this conflict that we now know as World War One.

495
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 1: So for any fans of free speech, you can imagine,

496
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 1: this is a heck of a This is a tall milkshake.

497
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 1: Now it's illegal to have a problem, even even though

498
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 1: you live in a country that talks a big game

499
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 1: about freedom. And Debs was anti war because I mean,

500
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 1: why wouldn't you be, And I mean, you know, we

501
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 1: know that certain industries love war and then love politicians

502
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 1: who are hawkish or whatever. But Deb's as someone who

503
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 1: wanted to protect, you know, the working people, was anti war.

504
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 1: He says, quote I am opposed to every war, but

505
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 1: one I am for that war with heart and soul,

506
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 1: and that is the worldwide war of the Social Revolution.

507
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 1: In that war, I'm prepared to fight in any way

508
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 1: the ruling class may make necessary, even to the barricades.

509
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 1: At dawn, I added at dawn. But you know, I

510
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 1: mean seriously, like, this guy's got a revolutionary soul, but

511
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 1: he doesn't want to kill anybody. He doesn't want to

512
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 1: hurt anybody. He's all about a war of ideas and

513
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 1: and and this is really kind of the beginning of

514
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 1: regular people being able to kind of, you know, coalesce

515
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:11,360
Speaker 1: around someone like him like Debs, and seemingly be heard

516
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 1: or the very least, you know, have some concessions made

517
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 1: in their favor. Yeah, and this is the era of

518
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 1: Joe Hill. Not the tremendously accomplished fiction writer is a

519
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:26,799
Speaker 1: son son of Stephen King, great writer, big fan, but

520
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 1: Joe Hill, the activist and musician who is unite people

521
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,359
Speaker 1: in a grassroots movement. I also want to point out

522
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:40,800
Speaker 1: vituperative doesn't just indicate that Congress got caught. It also

523
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,760
Speaker 1: indicates that people are talking so much trash about them.

524
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:48,439
Speaker 1: This is verbal abuse, right, and it's way different than

525
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:51,759
Speaker 1: the political discourse you might hear today, even how you

526
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 1: know how ugly it gets in the US and abroad today.

527
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 1: Back in the day, Oh gosh, we should just do

528
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 1: something on like the weirdest political smear campaigns, right, because yeah,

529
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:07,320
Speaker 1: these people were fighting, and because old boy Deb's no

530
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 1: our boy, Jean just violated the Espionage Act. So he

531
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 1: gets sent up the river. He's arrested, but like in

532
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 1: a cool way, right, Well cool to us. I think

533
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 1: he was. He wasn't exactly, he wasn't. I mean, it's

534
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 1: hard to talk about a topic like this and kind

535
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:35,799
Speaker 1: of not let your your stripes show a little bit.

536
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:38,359
Speaker 1: I think, Um, you know, we we try to make

537
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,719
Speaker 1: the show relatively a political but man, a guy like

538
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:43,800
Speaker 1: this kind of just gets my gets my blood pumping

539
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 1: in a good way. Debs was in fact arrested, like

540
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:49,279
Speaker 1: you said, been in Cleveland in nineteen eighteen, under the

541
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,239
Speaker 1: terms as you said again, of the nineteen seventeen Espionage

542
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 1: Act for a speech. For a speech. I just want

543
00:35:56,560 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 1: to reiterate that he didn't like, he didn't do as spionage.

544
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 1: He wasn't spying, he wasn't like blowing up you know,

545
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:09,440
Speaker 1: checkpoints or you know, stealing classified documents. He did a

546
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 1: speech that people didn't like. Uh, and that's when you

547
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 1: start really going micro. You have people in power going

548
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:18,359
Speaker 1: micro in these acts like how can we take this

549
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 1: guy to the mattresses, you know, go to the mattresses

550
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 1: against this guy. I'm sorry, I'm I'm messing up my

551
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:26,719
Speaker 1: my godfather um expressions here. It was a speech he

552
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 1: had made protesting the war, that he had given on

553
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 1: June sixteenth in Canton, Ohio. He apparently, as the Washington

554
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 1: Post put it, invited arrest. They were like, you shouldn't

555
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:45,439
Speaker 1: have been talking that way. You knew what would happen. Yeah,

556
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 1: he freed him of speech, right, Well, as long as

557
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:52,560
Speaker 1: it's some speech, right they I think the powers that

558
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:55,800
Speaker 1: be were more into their freedom to arrest at this point,

559
00:36:55,880 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 1: so so he gets he Yeah, like you said, Washington

560
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 1: Post and other papers of the day are saying, this

561
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 1: guy is courting incarceration, and a lot of the newspapers,

562
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 1: who let's remember, are largely controlled by the same industrial interests.

563
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 1: They team up on him and they do some character assassination.

564
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 1: They say, they heavily imply this guy is abudding dictator perhaps,

565
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 1: or what if he is a traitor to the country,

566
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 1: and if if, and they would they did something very clever,

567
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 1: quite insidious, Markavellian. Almost they say, look, we're all good Americans,

568
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 1: dear readers, and what he has said is so traitorous.

569
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 1: What he said is so seditious that we cannot in

570
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 1: good conscience printed. And when they said that, the people

571
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:55,320
Speaker 1: who were reading had no idea what he was actually saying.

572
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:57,760
Speaker 1: He might have been like, you know what we should

573
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 1: really be doing. We shouldn't try to text innocent people

574
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:04,960
Speaker 1: in Europe. We should all go out and collectively like

575
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:07,920
Speaker 1: kick puppies and poop in the streets, you know what

576
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 1: I mean. Newborn babies our currency, you know, uh, and

577
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 1: punt them, you know, over the goal post. And that's

578
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 1: how we pay for bread and lick everything, all things.

579
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,880
Speaker 1: You know what. No foot privacy. People should be running

580
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:29,800
Speaker 1: up and touching stranger's feet. That's like, what is wrong? Wow, Wow,

581
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:33,480
Speaker 1: that's a bridge too far, my fact. We need to

582
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 1: beat that out. That was I mean, I'm upset. No

583
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:42,280
Speaker 1: foot privacy, yea for some people in this day and age,

584
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:45,279
Speaker 1: they'd be stoked about that. I mean, foot picks are

585
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:49,320
Speaker 1: a currency of our modern day, you know, saying, yeah, well,

586
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,759
Speaker 1: shout out to the Tarantinos of the world. But but

587
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:56,359
Speaker 1: our point is, like we just made up several I think,

588
00:38:56,600 --> 00:39:00,360
Speaker 1: hilarious ideas, but things that would be mess stuff and

589
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 1: terrifying if they happen in real life. And that's what

590
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:07,799
Speaker 1: that is what is occurring when people read these newspaper articles.

591
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:12,399
Speaker 1: It's like the old Hitchcock idea that the monster who

592
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:15,560
Speaker 1: is out of the frame, off the screen is more

593
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:19,759
Speaker 1: terrifying than anything you could depict. So without knowing what

594
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:23,400
Speaker 1: this guy was saying, people were conjuring all sorts of sinister,

595
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:28,320
Speaker 1: horrific thoughts in their head, and they were associating them

596
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:31,920
Speaker 1: with our boy Gene. In fact, it was really just

597
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:34,879
Speaker 1: kind of stuff we'd already heard him say basically, maybe

598
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 1: just a little more apt up in his rhetoric. Correct, Yeah, yeah,

599
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:42,280
Speaker 1: he was. I mean he was getting a little hyperbolic.

600
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:44,839
Speaker 1: You know, he was storming some barns for sure, when

601
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 1: he said stuff like we are going to destroy all

602
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 1: enslaving and degrading capitalist institutions and to recreate them as

603
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:57,400
Speaker 1: free and humanizing institutions. Uh. And then he said, you

604
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 1: say things like destroy institutions. It's it's not too far

605
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 1: off a walk to think he means like blow them

606
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 1: up physically, But I think he's speaking more figuratively, right,

607
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 1: the idea of destroying and not institutions like physical buildings,

608
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,759
Speaker 1: but institutions like concepts. Right. Yeah, in a way, he's

609
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:20,399
Speaker 1: like a drain the swamp, dude, and of of his age, right.

610
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:24,319
Speaker 1: And the swamp to him is corporate power and the

611
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:28,320
Speaker 1: high level nepotism of the aristocratic class in the US.

612
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 1: And you know, despite what people say about a class

613
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:34,719
Speaker 1: system in the United States, there's always been an aristocracy here.

614
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 1: So he wants to he wants to pump up class warfare, well,

615
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 1: not class warfare especially, but class rights. And he talks

616
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:46,359
Speaker 1: about the working class, you know, the people who are

617
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:50,840
Speaker 1: sent to fight, the people who have to actually die

618
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:54,440
Speaker 1: on the front lines. He says they don't have a

619
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,799
Speaker 1: voice in deciding whether or not to go to war.

620
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:01,960
Speaker 1: And I am super not loving it. We're paraphrasing, but

621
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 1: that's that's where he's going. So he goes to jail.

622
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 1: He's not the only one. Thousands of anti war activists

623
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 1: and socialists get jammed up during the First World War,

624
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 1: and then like you mentioned old the Red Scare, and

625
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 1: what we see is strange because at this point Uncle

626
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:23,239
Speaker 1: Sam is essentially trying to outlaw an ideology. They're trying

627
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 1: to outlaw socialism as a it's like thought crime. Well,

628
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 1: so the thing that I was talking about earlier where

629
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:30,439
Speaker 1: it's like we hadn't quite gotten there yet, now we're

630
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:34,239
Speaker 1: really getting there because they're like, oh, they sort of

631
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:36,399
Speaker 1: slept on it right where it was like they didn't

632
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 1: quite realize how antithetical to the institutions that Uncle Sam

633
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:45,360
Speaker 1: relies on, you know. And uh, Uncle Sam always was

634
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 1: kind of like a symbol of like equality and like

635
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,759
Speaker 1: you know, American stick tuitiveness and all of that. But

636
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 1: what Uncle Sam ultimately became was just kind of this

637
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 1: this representation of the powered class, you know, whether those

638
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 1: be politicians or you know, the moneyed hierarchy of industry.

639
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:10,360
Speaker 1: And this is okay, so we're we're maybe lionizing or

640
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 1: uh deified debs a little bit, but he's he's still him,

641
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:17,800
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, He's still his very version

642
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 1: of Jenny from the Block. Uh, he goes to court

643
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 1: and this is like a kind of moment. Yeah, they're

644
00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 1: sexy sexy justice and justice and sorry, okay, I got it. Yeah,

645
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 1: Dick Wolf. So this is uh, this is a moment

646
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:41,319
Speaker 1: where he goes to court. He's got an attorney, and

647
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:45,439
Speaker 1: his attorney is getting kind of hyperbolic. His attorney basically, uh,

648
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:50,920
Speaker 1: compares Eugene Debs to Jesus Christ. And there's no one call.

649
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:53,439
Speaker 1: I know, that's the entry point. They're breaking the ice.

650
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:57,480
Speaker 1: No one gets called to the stand, but Gene and

651
00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:03,800
Speaker 1: Jeans testimony is a two hour speech with like no interruptions,

652
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:06,920
Speaker 1: which I cannot imagine that happening in a like that

653
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:09,920
Speaker 1: does feel like a fake law and order courtroom situation.

654
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:14,680
Speaker 1: Two hours, two hours. Understand, what do you do? A

655
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:16,799
Speaker 1: little This is a little unrelated, but it just does

656
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:19,400
Speaker 1: kind of point to the power of speaking up in

657
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:22,719
Speaker 1: court like that because it becomes part of record and

658
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:27,200
Speaker 1: people react, you know, the jury reacts, the litigator's react,

659
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 1: the judge reacts. And I saw a thing where remember

660
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:33,040
Speaker 1: murder was the case. You know Tupac he actually went

661
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:35,960
Speaker 1: to court for for a murder and he didn't say

662
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:39,080
Speaker 1: a thing throughout the entire case until the very end

663
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:41,840
Speaker 1: when he stood up and said something to the effect

664
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 1: of this hasn't been justice. He essentially said, this is

665
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 1: the kangaroo court. But he said, my my faith is

666
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:50,400
Speaker 1: not in your hands. My faith is in God's hands.

667
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 1: And it was just the most baller kind of like,

668
00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:55,839
Speaker 1: you know, I know that I'm you know, righteous here,

669
00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 1: and again I don't know even what came of that case.

670
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 1: I meaning obviously didn't go to prison centered or get

671
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:02,440
Speaker 1: the death penalty. I think he was acquitted, if I'm

672
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:06,359
Speaker 1: not mistaken. But this is that level of like, you know,

673
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:08,920
Speaker 1: he's going to have his moments and people have to

674
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:12,759
Speaker 1: pay attention because it's part of public record. You're out

675
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:15,319
Speaker 1: of order. This whole court is out of order. This

676
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:18,879
Speaker 1: whole country is out of order. Uh Also, what's next

677
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 1: airplane food? When those get invented, this is gonna be nuts.

678
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:26,280
Speaker 1: Uh So, yeah, he says, I believe in free speech.

679
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:30,560
Speaker 1: I believe in war as well as peace, and if

680
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 1: this espionage law stands, then our constitution is dead. It

681
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 1: was used as a workaround to to to jam this

682
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:45,040
Speaker 1: guy up. It was not the letter and spirit of

683
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:47,840
Speaker 1: the Act. It was a way of like literally shutting

684
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 1: down free speech. So what he's saying, whether you agree

685
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 1: with him or not, you know holds true. How can

686
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 1: you do espionage isn't something you do in public? Espionage

687
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:59,439
Speaker 1: is something you do in the shadows. So to call

688
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:04,239
Speaker 1: make a speech saying something unpopular, it's called that espionage

689
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 1: is absurd. I agree with you, because they're trying to

690
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:13,680
Speaker 1: sabotage an idea. A war on an idea is a

691
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:17,759
Speaker 1: very difficult war to win. Uh. There's one line that

692
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:21,360
Speaker 1: I think, I know this really speaks um to you, Max.

693
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 1: I think it speaks to Nolan I as well. And

694
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:28,759
Speaker 1: it's something it's something I've always remembered since I first

695
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:34,640
Speaker 1: learned about this guy from his from his address. It

696
00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 1: comes to us via another socialist named Max Eastman. It's this,

697
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:42,759
Speaker 1: while there is a lower class, I am in it,

698
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 1: while there is a criminal element, I am of it,

699
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:50,239
Speaker 1: while there is a soul in prison, I am not

700
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:55,399
Speaker 1: free again. Take him to church, yeah, man. And it's

701
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:58,800
Speaker 1: funny too, because if you look up images of Eugene Dabs,

702
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:02,959
Speaker 1: I mean he's a wiry, slight kind of fellow where

703
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 1: he might as well have elbow patches, you know, he

704
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:08,160
Speaker 1: really does look like a you know, a professor um.

705
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:11,359
Speaker 1: So he doesn't have the the idea of casting him

706
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:14,400
Speaker 1: as like a would be dictator, which is ironic that

707
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 1: kind of rhetoric, because he's couldn't be more anti dictator,

708
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:22,080
Speaker 1: you know, because I mean, we have these de facto

709
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:26,400
Speaker 1: dictators in the history of our country, in these captains

710
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:28,799
Speaker 1: of industry. You know, they are these folks that that

711
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:31,839
Speaker 1: there there are no checks and balances um and and

712
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:34,759
Speaker 1: we have this illusion of checks and balances kind of

713
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 1: in the government, but within industry there really aren't. Um.

714
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:40,400
Speaker 1: We were even in the earliest days of things like

715
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:44,240
Speaker 1: regulatory um boards and things that are kind of calling

716
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:48,239
Speaker 1: uh industrial you know, giants to task in terms of

717
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:50,439
Speaker 1: what they're doing to the plan and what they're doing

718
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:52,719
Speaker 1: to the working people. So you have this kind of

719
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:57,839
Speaker 1: shadow government within industry that that essentially they are these dictators.

720
00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 1: So it's hilarious to try to cast the slight little

721
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:04,680
Speaker 1: preface sorial dude as like a would be dictator. Yeah,

722
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 1: and then let's also consider that, um importantly, a lot

723
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:14,279
Speaker 1: of a lot of countries that would go on to

724
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:18,880
Speaker 1: practice what you would see as communism or some blend

725
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:23,040
Speaker 1: of socialism, a lot of them later failed, Right, So

726
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:28,440
Speaker 1: it was easy to point to those experiments and say, hey,

727
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:32,960
Speaker 1: watch out be scared, because if you if you want

728
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:37,319
Speaker 1: these things like better labor laws than the next thing,

729
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 1: you know, uh, you're essentially going to be forced into

730
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 1: serfdom like over in the U. S. SR. So there

731
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:49,840
Speaker 1: was there was a lot. This is ideological warfare. His speech,

732
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:53,279
Speaker 1: though it is dope and rousing for many people in

733
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 1: the crowd, it doesn't persuade the judge. So the Espionage Act,

734
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:01,080
Speaker 1: whether or not you agree that it is morally just,

735
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:05,279
Speaker 1: is legal. It is letter is the lawful land. So

736
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:08,480
Speaker 1: he gets sent back up the river for ten years.

737
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:13,239
Speaker 1: He's taken from Cleveland to a prison out West Virginia,

738
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:17,360
Speaker 1: and then later they send him down here to Atlanta

739
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:23,160
Speaker 1: to the infamous Atlanta Federal Penitentiary, a very messed up

740
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:26,319
Speaker 1: place to live. He's stuck in a shoebox size cell

741
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 1: with five other dudes. Isn't that the one that's still standing.

742
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 1: It's like it's very like Gothic. It's like over by

743
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 1: the good Taco place, Yeah, the prison Taco place. Yeah,

744
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:40,240
Speaker 1: everybody loves it. It's so good that place is is

745
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:43,759
Speaker 1: uh is um what's the word I'm looking for him striking.

746
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:48,200
Speaker 1: It's about it's gotta be a better word. But it's just, yes, foreboding.

747
00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:50,719
Speaker 1: It's very Gotham city. You know, it's like it looks

748
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:56,960
Speaker 1: like a weird Dracula castle. Yeah, that's a good description.

749
00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 1: And uh so he's there, and this is way before

750
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:02,320
Speaker 1: where the taco places built. But try it when you

751
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:04,840
Speaker 1: come into town, folks, let us know. We'll meet you

752
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:07,880
Speaker 1: up there. He says, don't give me any special treatment.

753
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:11,880
Speaker 1: I wasn't just uh, I wasn't just styling on it

754
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:13,960
Speaker 1: when I was talking in court. You know, if there's

755
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:16,839
Speaker 1: a criminal element, let me be of it. Let me

756
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:21,400
Speaker 1: be part of what you call the lowest. And they say, yeah,

757
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:23,879
Speaker 1: right on, man. So you're gonna be in this cell

758
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:26,840
Speaker 1: for fourteen hours a day, uh, and we'll let you

759
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:30,360
Speaker 1: walk out in the prison yard twenty minutes every twenty

760
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:33,800
Speaker 1: four hours. The nutritional value of what they're feeding prisoners

761
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:38,240
Speaker 1: there is very, very bad. So he is gradually growing

762
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:41,880
Speaker 1: malnourished and weak. And like you pointed out, no, he

763
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:45,960
Speaker 1: doesn't have the best constitution to begin with. So he

764
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:51,239
Speaker 1: starts to think, Holy smokes, the people I've met in

765
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:56,120
Speaker 1: this prison, they're not necessarily bad people. They have, in fact,

766
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:58,799
Speaker 1: a lot in common with the guys I worked with

767
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:02,040
Speaker 1: in my real road days. He says, you it's a

768
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:05,759
Speaker 1: cross section of society. You can see every version of

769
00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:10,120
Speaker 1: humanity here. And he says, you know what, also, I

770
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:13,200
Speaker 1: kind of like, how, uh, this prison I'm in is

771
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:16,360
Speaker 1: a model of equality because we're all in the same

772
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:21,120
Speaker 1: terrible situation. Right, Yeah, that's true. It really does kind

773
00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:22,719
Speaker 1: of even the playing field. I mean, you know, there

774
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:24,920
Speaker 1: are obviously, we know there are certain folks in prison

775
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:29,760
Speaker 1: that get more privileges because of connections and skill sets

776
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:32,279
Speaker 1: or you know, the aid frames of the world and

777
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:35,359
Speaker 1: all of that. But in general, you really do have

778
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:39,080
Speaker 1: to bootstrap yourself and like, you know, become valuable in

779
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:43,440
Speaker 1: a very specific way in prison. Yeah. And of course

780
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:47,160
Speaker 1: this is not too in any way diminish the horrors

781
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:52,600
Speaker 1: of incarceration, which are you know many right, the risk

782
00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 1: of physical violence, Uh, the dangers of infection and disease.

783
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:01,560
Speaker 1: These are very real problems back then as well as today.

784
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:07,360
Speaker 1: He becomes this he has something really interesting. Um, he

785
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:13,239
Speaker 1: he becomes an ultimate champion of equality, right, and this

786
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:18,000
Speaker 1: is what he's talking about in his later writings. So

787
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 1: this makes him a martyr, this makes him a folk hero.

788
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:27,360
Speaker 1: He's a champion of free speech. He runs for president again,

789
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:32,640
Speaker 1: that's right. Don't call it a comeback. This dude is

790
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 1: in jail and he runs for president. He gets nearly

791
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:41,160
Speaker 1: a million votes as convict number nine six five three.

792
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:44,080
Speaker 1: We did a slight mention of it in part one,

793
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:46,760
Speaker 1: and we paid it off. And as the New Yorker

794
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:49,319
Speaker 1: puts it in this article that we uh that we

795
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:55,879
Speaker 1: referenced um by Jill Lapore, a vote for Deb's at

796
00:51:55,920 --> 00:51:59,000
Speaker 1: that point was not a vote for the Socialist Party.

797
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:03,560
Speaker 1: It was a vote for free speech. Because again, whether

798
00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:08,279
Speaker 1: you you know, buy into the various intricacies of socialism,

799
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:11,360
Speaker 1: which which there are many, what he was truly fighting

800
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:17,640
Speaker 1: for here was having his free speech shut down. Yeah yeah,

801
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:22,240
Speaker 1: And he probably at this point, given the national support

802
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:26,640
Speaker 1: he garnered, he conceivably could ask for a pardon and

803
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:30,000
Speaker 1: it probably would have been granted, right if he had

804
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:33,120
Speaker 1: made some sort of public maya culpa, right and sort

805
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:38,040
Speaker 1: of diffused the bomb of this activist movement. But he said, nag,

806
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:41,120
Speaker 1: that's past for me, or that's a know for me, dog,

807
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:45,480
Speaker 1: And he grew sicker, grew weaker. Day in day out.

808
00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:50,600
Speaker 1: People began holding these free gene rallies, what they called

809
00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:56,320
Speaker 1: them free debt rallies. But yeah, President Woodrow Wilson again,

810
00:52:57,640 --> 00:53:02,040
Speaker 1: thank you, famously a dick. Uh. He refused to answer

811
00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:05,520
Speaker 1: any of these national calls for just amnesty. Right, you

812
00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:08,239
Speaker 1: can say that he's still guilty, but let this guy

813
00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 1: out of jail before he dies. For prison war, it

814
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:15,520
Speaker 1: would take a different administration. Warren Harding's administration releases him

815
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:20,120
Speaker 1: on Christmas Day one, but the damage to his frail

816
00:53:20,719 --> 00:53:24,680
Speaker 1: condition was done. He never recovered. He lived in a

817
00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:30,520
Speaker 1: sanatorium for the rest of his life. In he said

818
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:33,960
Speaker 1: the Socialist Party was pretty much dead in the US,

819
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:39,319
Speaker 1: and the next year he passed away. But you know,

820
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:43,239
Speaker 1: to this day, I think we have in Bernie Sanders

821
00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:46,320
Speaker 1: sort of a Eugene Debs analog and that he really,

822
00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:49,279
Speaker 1: you know, made a splash in the kind of mainstream

823
00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:53,719
Speaker 1: political stage. And he obviously didn't win, but just by

824
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:56,960
Speaker 1: virtue of like him being out there kind of spreading

825
00:53:57,000 --> 00:53:59,920
Speaker 1: these kinds of ideas, I think he made a big impact.

826
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:02,440
Speaker 1: And I think Eugene V. Debs would have been proud,

827
00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:04,680
Speaker 1: And I couldn't I don't know this for a fact,

828
00:54:04,719 --> 00:54:08,240
Speaker 1: but I can't imagine that that Sanders isn't a student

829
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:13,240
Speaker 1: of Debs. Oh? Absolutely, yeah, Because while this might sound

830
00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:16,200
Speaker 1: like a story that is ultimately a story of failure,

831
00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:21,080
Speaker 1: it's not really, because the legacy continued on, you know

832
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:24,640
Speaker 1: what I mean. The It's like the idea of seeing

833
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:30,000
Speaker 1: an apple fall to the ground and thinking, ah, dang,

834
00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:33,520
Speaker 1: what a waste of an apple. But every apple has seats,

835
00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:38,160
Speaker 1: as did the beliefs of Debs, and those seeds took root. God,

836
00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:40,399
Speaker 1: that's a painful analogy, but I hope, I hope we're

837
00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:43,279
Speaker 1: painting the picture, and they grew into things like new

838
00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:49,239
Speaker 1: generations of social reformers who spearheaded stuff like the New

839
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:54,200
Speaker 1: Deal which saved the United States in the nineteen thirties.

840
00:54:54,640 --> 00:55:02,080
Speaker 1: And uh, this becomes part of the great, at times contradictory,

841
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:06,440
Speaker 1: historical anatomy of the United States, of the country in

842
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:10,760
Speaker 1: which we live. And at this point, you know, because

843
00:55:10,840 --> 00:55:15,319
Speaker 1: I don't want to sound sanctimonious, your ted talkie, at

844
00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:17,640
Speaker 1: this point, I think we tip our hats to you,

845
00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:20,279
Speaker 1: gene V Debs. Whether or not you agree with him,

846
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:22,680
Speaker 1: you have to respect that he kept it real the

847
00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:28,120
Speaker 1: whole way through. And we can end on a lighter note. Gentleman, Noel,

848
00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:33,800
Speaker 1: max is it is it time for our spiteful dessert

849
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:39,920
Speaker 1: said okay, alright, So, um Woodrow Wilson fans, if you

850
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:43,319
Speaker 1: are somehow still listening to this episode, uh we we

851
00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:46,640
Speaker 1: would like to share with you some excellent research the

852
00:55:46,680 --> 00:55:49,120
Speaker 1: Max did. Uh Nolan, I did a little on our

853
00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:52,560
Speaker 1: own as well. We wanted to end this episode, which

854
00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:55,520
Speaker 1: is a quick list of reasons we think Woodrow Wilson

855
00:55:56,880 --> 00:56:02,160
Speaker 1: just sucks. Just sucks as a purse it not even

856
00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:05,439
Speaker 1: a president. Oh my gosh, Max, I think you should lead.

857
00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:08,480
Speaker 1: I mean, this is your this is your your baby.

858
00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah yeah, Wildrow Wilson really sucks. So the article

859
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:14,000
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be referencing for most of this is a

860
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:18,560
Speaker 1: vast article titled Woodrow Wilson was extremely racist, even by

861
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:22,080
Speaker 1: the standards of his time. It was compared to two

862
00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:24,920
Speaker 1: people around him at the time. Because you know, that's

863
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:26,840
Speaker 1: one of the hard things about going through history of

864
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:29,759
Speaker 1: people and be like it's like, well, they were not

865
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:33,279
Speaker 1: as racist as everyone else, But Woodrow Wilson was so

866
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:35,480
Speaker 1: racist that everyone around him like, wow, this guy is

867
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:38,200
Speaker 1: so ridiculously racist. So um, one thing he did I

868
00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:44,360
Speaker 1: did not know about this, but you know, reconstruction. Uh,

869
00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:46,600
Speaker 1: all that era stuff. There's a lot of the stuff

870
00:56:46,600 --> 00:56:48,840
Speaker 1: was still in place, and unfortunately a lot of it

871
00:56:48,840 --> 00:56:52,080
Speaker 1: would be carved away without these uh about these decades.

872
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:54,600
Speaker 1: And one of the main people to do that, Woodrow Wilson.

873
00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:59,719
Speaker 1: He resegregated the federal government. He fired, or at least

874
00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:02,640
Speaker 1: put in an action, the firing of fifteen of the

875
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:06,359
Speaker 1: seventeen black supervisors in all the federal service. There's only

876
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:09,000
Speaker 1: seventeen black supervisors, so there's not many that many of them,

877
00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:10,880
Speaker 1: and by the time he was done, fifteen of them

878
00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:14,400
Speaker 1: were gone. He was like, too far. He also yeah,

879
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:17,960
Speaker 1: he was like, um, like how Lovecraft was really racist

880
00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:21,000
Speaker 1: for a large part of his life. Lovecraft was so

881
00:57:21,160 --> 00:57:24,360
Speaker 1: racist that he made other racists uncomfortable. And that's kind

882
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:31,040
Speaker 1: of the Woodrow Wilson vibe. This is astonishing because uh,

883
00:57:31,200 --> 00:57:35,480
Speaker 1: he also tried to high road people right when um,

884
00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:40,000
Speaker 1: when he got confronted by black Americans who saw the

885
00:57:40,080 --> 00:57:46,520
Speaker 1: threat of his his weird, his weird crush on segregation,

886
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:48,920
Speaker 1: he told them, what what do you say, Max? You

887
00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:52,000
Speaker 1: should do the quote, Oh no, I have to read

888
00:57:52,040 --> 00:57:53,920
Speaker 1: this one. He said, I'm not going to try an

889
00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:58,480
Speaker 1: accent segregation. It's not humiliating, but a benefit and ought

890
00:57:58,520 --> 00:58:03,280
Speaker 1: to be so regarded by you gentlemen. Wolf and you guys,

891
00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:05,160
Speaker 1: I actually have another one. I have a secret one

892
00:58:05,160 --> 00:58:07,000
Speaker 1: from this article that I did not list in here.

893
00:58:07,240 --> 00:58:09,320
Speaker 1: It's so bad that I left out the side. But

894
00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:12,520
Speaker 1: supposedly there was this there was this black gentleman whose

895
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:16,200
Speaker 1: job was deemed so essential they couldn't fire him. But

896
00:58:16,240 --> 00:58:18,280
Speaker 1: they're like, well, we have or they couldn't fire him,

897
00:58:18,280 --> 00:58:20,560
Speaker 1: and they couldn't move him into another department. He he

898
00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:23,840
Speaker 1: worked so interconnected with everyone else in the department who

899
00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:26,919
Speaker 1: was also who was by the way, white. They're like, okay,

900
00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:28,320
Speaker 1: so we have to leave him here, but we still

901
00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:30,240
Speaker 1: have to secre gae him. So they put this man

902
00:58:31,080 --> 00:58:34,600
Speaker 1: in a cage in a federal office building. It is

903
00:58:34,640 --> 00:58:38,120
Speaker 1: listed in this article. This, this man doing his job

904
00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:40,840
Speaker 1: working for the federal government, was put in a cage

905
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:46,480
Speaker 1: while he worked in human Not to mention, he was

906
00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:49,680
Speaker 1: a vocal defender of the Ku Klux Klan. Oh right, yeah,

907
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:52,840
Speaker 1: that part. Yeah. Woulard Wilson really loved the clan. He

908
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:55,040
Speaker 1: really loved Confederacy, and he was kind of just like

909
00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:58,880
Speaker 1: obsessed with this whole lost cause thing where you know,

910
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:02,400
Speaker 1: this idea that, like the Confederacy losing the Civil War,

911
00:59:02,480 --> 00:59:04,400
Speaker 1: there was this noble cause that they were fighting for

912
00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:07,040
Speaker 1: blah blah blah, all this bs that does not stand

913
00:59:07,080 --> 00:59:12,160
Speaker 1: up to any scrutiny whatsoever. And he really wanted to

914
00:59:13,320 --> 00:59:20,480
Speaker 1: install these ideas and everything. M Yeah. He also he

915
00:59:20,560 --> 00:59:26,800
Speaker 1: thought that the Confederacy was a pretty good idea. He said, look,

916
00:59:26,880 --> 00:59:34,480
Speaker 1: these are bucolic, like, uh, philosopher kings of an agrarian society,

917
00:59:34,760 --> 00:59:40,520
Speaker 1: and these northern industrialists just don't get it. Uh. He

918
00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:45,640
Speaker 1: was his most You know, Wilson's an academic, but being

919
00:59:45,680 --> 00:59:50,120
Speaker 1: an academic doesn't necessarily being intelligent does not necessarily make

920
00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:54,080
Speaker 1: you a good person. He was really into what is

921
00:59:54,120 --> 00:59:58,320
Speaker 1: called lost cause mythology, which is like the South was

922
00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:02,920
Speaker 1: right kind of stuff. Yeah, and it occurs to me. Uh,

923
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:07,400
Speaker 1: Eugene V. Debs and you and Woodrow Wilson weirdly resembled

924
01:00:07,440 --> 01:00:10,560
Speaker 1: one another. Yeah, it looked like kind of it's like

925
01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:16,880
Speaker 1: a Marvel film where the hero and the yes like

926
01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:20,120
Speaker 1: in metaverse kind of or not mass good in alternate

927
01:00:20,200 --> 01:00:27,320
Speaker 1: kind of universe scenarios multi multiverse, thank you, not in metaverse.

928
01:00:27,600 --> 01:00:30,200
Speaker 1: But man, what a ride. Um. I can't believe we

929
01:00:30,880 --> 01:00:33,200
Speaker 1: I can't believe that we pulled two episodes out of this,

930
01:00:33,280 --> 01:00:37,160
Speaker 1: and I think each one has, you know, something very

931
01:00:37,160 --> 01:00:40,160
Speaker 1: special because this guy's early life was its own thing,

932
01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:42,400
Speaker 1: and then his history. I gotta say to that one

933
01:00:42,400 --> 01:00:44,680
Speaker 1: of the things I did to research for this, I

934
01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:48,440
Speaker 1: found a dude on this history YouTube channel who's like

935
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:52,120
Speaker 1: a Eugene V. Deb's impersonator um and and it's sort

936
01:00:52,160 --> 01:00:53,840
Speaker 1: of like in the office where there was that that

937
01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:57,960
Speaker 1: eight that a blencoln um uh, Benjamin Franklin, Benjamin Franklin

938
01:00:58,000 --> 01:01:01,560
Speaker 1: impersonator exactly. This guy as these talks in character, and

939
01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:04,600
Speaker 1: then afterwards he was interviewed not in character, and he

940
01:01:04,640 --> 01:01:07,160
Speaker 1: pointed out that he did the version of Debs that

941
01:01:07,240 --> 01:01:09,600
Speaker 1: was sort of more long in the tooth because he

942
01:01:09,640 --> 01:01:12,800
Speaker 1: didn't feel like he could possibly ever match the rhetoric,

943
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:20,320
Speaker 1: the rhetorical fire that's kind of more young Eugene Debs brought. Yeah,

944
01:01:20,360 --> 01:01:24,040
Speaker 1: and this and um, this is worth watching, by the way,

945
01:01:24,080 --> 01:01:26,720
Speaker 1: to get a sense of Debs. What Noel's talking about here.

946
01:01:27,560 --> 01:01:31,920
Speaker 1: We talked earlier. I love the h I love the

947
01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:33,760
Speaker 1: um what do you call it? I love the re

948
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:37,160
Speaker 1: enactments I love those towns, I love the historical figures.

949
01:01:37,160 --> 01:01:39,960
Speaker 1: I'm a sucker for that, but even I would probably

950
01:01:40,280 --> 01:01:44,480
Speaker 1: skip a Woodrow Wilson re enactment. Uh. And with that,

951
01:01:45,320 --> 01:01:47,439
Speaker 1: I think we're gonna We're gonna call it a date.

952
01:01:47,560 --> 01:01:50,800
Speaker 1: This has been a crazy week for us, but it's

953
01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:55,200
Speaker 1: it's thoroughly enjoyable. Um. We cannot wait to get to

954
01:01:55,480 --> 01:01:59,440
Speaker 1: some of our future episodes. Couple of a couple of

955
01:01:59,480 --> 01:02:03,360
Speaker 1: spoilers for your ridiculous historians. We're getting into hot tubs

956
01:02:03,920 --> 01:02:08,160
Speaker 1: figuratively and maybe literally. We're also, uh, we're also going

957
01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:13,439
Speaker 1: deep into the story of condiments. I am so gas man,

958
01:02:13,720 --> 01:02:16,200
Speaker 1: oh man, and literally. Just by hearing you say that, now,

959
01:02:16,240 --> 01:02:18,520
Speaker 1: I think we need to also do an episode on

960
01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:21,840
Speaker 1: the story of condoms, because we know that could in

961
01:02:21,880 --> 01:02:24,760
Speaker 1: and of itself be an interesting tale. You know what

962
01:02:24,920 --> 01:02:30,200
Speaker 1: about condoms filled with condiments? No, I must stop you

963
01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:34,120
Speaker 1: right there. As a family show, family show. Huge thanks

964
01:02:34,160 --> 01:02:37,400
Speaker 1: to super producer Max Williams stopping him short of of

965
01:02:37,600 --> 01:02:42,720
Speaker 1: of of just totally ruining my mind. Um, Alex Williams

966
01:02:42,720 --> 01:02:47,800
Speaker 1: who composed this theme, doctor Zach Williams no relation, as

967
01:02:47,800 --> 01:02:53,480
Speaker 1: well as Jeff Bartlett. Big thanks to our research associate team.

968
01:02:53,480 --> 01:02:57,720
Speaker 1: Thanks to our long suffering friend and self appointed nemeses

969
01:02:57,880 --> 01:03:02,680
Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickland ak the Quister, Thanks to Deb's. Thanks to

970
01:03:02,680 --> 01:03:06,360
Speaker 1: our ridiculous historians for tuning in Noel. Thanks to you,

971
01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:09,920
Speaker 1: Matt Hey ed you as well. We'll see you next time, folks.

972
01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:19,040
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the I

973
01:03:19,080 --> 01:03:22,040
Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to

974
01:03:22,080 --> 01:03:22,960
Speaker 1: your favorite shows,