Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the
Speaker 1: Thing from my Heart Radio. The saying used to be
Speaker 1: behind every great man is a great woman, But considering
Speaker 1: my guest today, perhaps that should read behind every great
Speaker 1: woman is a great woman. Huma Aberdeen is someone who
Speaker 1: has spent her entire career in public service. Her work
Speaker 1: with Hillary Rodham Clinton began as a young aide in
Speaker 1: the First Lady's office, then as a senior adviser to
Speaker 1: the Senator, deputy chief of staff to the Secretary of State,
Speaker 1: and now as her chief of staff. Aberdeen's decades of
Speaker 1: collaboration with Clinton bring to mind Richard Nixon's farewell speech
Speaker 1: to his White House staff, who noted, quote, this house
Speaker 1: has a great heart, and that heart comes from those
Speaker 1: who serve now. Whoma Aberdeen has written an intimate and
Speaker 1: revealing best selling memoir on her life, entitled Both And.
Speaker 1: The book covers her time working in government as well
Speaker 1: as her personal struggles, including a very public divorce from
Speaker 1: former Congressman Anthony Weiner. With such a substantial career in politics,
Speaker 1: I wanted to know if Aberdeen's upbringing is what set
Speaker 1: her on the path to where she is today. My
Speaker 1: mother is a sociologist. My father studied American civilization, which
Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons he ended up at Penn.
Speaker 1: They don't really teach it or have that course in
Speaker 1: many universities now. Yeah, and then they they're from two
Speaker 1: countries that were at war, and so they decided they
Speaker 1: got asylum here and moved to Michigan and they my
Speaker 1: dad taught at Western Michigan. My mom taught at Kalamazoo College.
Speaker 1: How long were they living here before you were born
Speaker 1: or had you been born? I was born here. I
Speaker 1: was born here, and when I was to my and
Speaker 1: we thought we were going to say here forever. I
Speaker 1: I actually I have this whole thing in my life
Speaker 1: about sliding doors. It's not maybe very healthy, but like
Speaker 1: what if? What if? What if? And I've often thought
Speaker 1: about what my life would have been like if I
Speaker 1: had lived that Midwestern life, which I almost did. But
Speaker 1: when I was to my dad was diagnosed with basically,
Speaker 1: you know, terminal illness. He was renal failure and his
Speaker 1: doctor said, you know, you have five to ten years
Speaker 1: and get your affairs in order. How long did he
Speaker 1: live after the diagnosis. Well, it's amazing that doctor was
Speaker 1: exactly right. His kidneys survived ten years to the day
Speaker 1: they failed. And it's one of the first lines I've
Speaker 1: wrote in my book. My dad was told he was dying.
Speaker 1: I don't know if I ever want to see that doctor.
Speaker 1: It was amazing, I mean made, but the difference between
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy seven in Kalamazoo, Michigan and thankfully nine years
Speaker 1: later the possibility of getting on the transplant list became,
Speaker 1: you know, something real, which only happened because my mother
Speaker 1: was so tenacious. So he then went on dialysis. So
Speaker 1: he lived till I was seventeen and when did you
Speaker 1: go over there? So two months after his diagnosis that
Speaker 1: my parents had an option to take a sabbatical and
Speaker 1: their choice was either Italy or Saudi Arabia. And the interestingly,
Speaker 1: they had always decided. They had always thought they would
Speaker 1: go to Italy. They thought it would be this great adventure.
Speaker 1: They'd go to Italy. And then my father gets this
Speaker 1: diagnosis and he thought, you know, I want to teach
Speaker 1: my children about their culture, about their faith. Were a
Speaker 1: Muslim family, it seemed like more of an interesting and
Speaker 1: it was like, you know, just a year. So they said,
Speaker 1: why don't we do? Saudi was definitely the hardest choice.
Speaker 1: My mother actually said, when you know, my father said
Speaker 1: let's go to Saudi, She's like, and I was too.
Speaker 1: She says, they even have diapers in that country. And
Speaker 1: I think about how intrepid they where they landed. They
Speaker 1: didn't speak the language. My mother all of a sudden
Speaker 1: had to veil her something in Italy, Saudi Arabia Italy.
Speaker 1: I think they decided that, you know, there they could.
Speaker 1: It was more of a challenge, and I think they
Speaker 1: liked that. My mother taught herself Arabic to teach her students.
Speaker 1: Then after a year they actually decided to come back
Speaker 1: and then come back, and that was, you know, forty
Speaker 1: four years ago. They kept going to My mother taught sociology,
Speaker 1: and my dad, you know, arted very early on. He
Speaker 1: taught a few years, but very early on he open
Speaker 1: to foundation. And that's actually one of the reasons. Even
Speaker 1: though the foundation was based in London, but it was
Speaker 1: a foundation that produced an academic journal that studied the
Speaker 1: condition of Muslims who lived as minorities around the world.
Speaker 1: And my dad's expertise was actually in Russia. Well back
Speaker 1: then it was the USSR, the Soviet Union, and and
Speaker 1: it was his You know, I often say this, you know,
Speaker 1: my father was really prescient about a lot of these issues.
Speaker 1: He basically said, look, if we don't figure out as
Speaker 1: Muslims how to live in the world with the rise
Speaker 1: of the West, we're gonna have problems. And sure enough
Speaker 1: he predicted Bosni I predicted so much of what where
Speaker 1: now this these convulsions that we have. And in part
Speaker 1: his theory was, look, if you are practicing Muslim wherever
Speaker 1: you come from in the Arab world or you know,
Speaker 1: through the Muslim world, and you choose to live in
Speaker 1: the West, you cannot go there and live in your
Speaker 1: own little bubble. That's just not You're not. You have
Speaker 1: to You're gonna go and live in France. You need
Speaker 1: to become French. And also you can do exactly and
Speaker 1: then and that was the way he thought that we
Speaker 1: could succeed in this world. And I think he was right,
Speaker 1: seeing certainly what's happened. So he was working specifically in
Speaker 1: what during those ten years when he was over there,
Speaker 1: just a multitude of things, a multitude of things. A
Speaker 1: lot of his conversations were about interfaith dialogue. So we
Speaker 1: would like. We spent one summer in Greece, living in
Speaker 1: a monastery at a conference about you know, Islamic, Christian, Jewish,
Speaker 1: you know, dialogue, and we'd sit at the table and
Speaker 1: and people, a lot of Muslims and certainly Arabs and
Speaker 1: people who lived in our world said why why do
Speaker 1: you do this? Why do you go and you know?
Speaker 1: And they say, you know, they would tease him and say,
Speaker 1: why do you go have conversations? These provocative conversations were
Speaker 1: even the angels fear to tread. Why do you go
Speaker 1: have these? You know, very contentious? And is because I
Speaker 1: want to understand and I want to know more about
Speaker 1: these other faiths and beliefs and you know kind of
Speaker 1: syst political systems. And I don't have any doubt in
Speaker 1: my own but leafs, but I want to learn more.
Speaker 1: And I think we probably have more in common than
Speaker 1: we realize. Nope, For you other than when you were
Speaker 1: maybe were moving about and you mentioned Greece, for one,
Speaker 1: did you go to one school or did you concentrate
Speaker 1: in just a handful of schools when you were there?
Speaker 1: Where did you go to school? High school? I went
Speaker 1: to international school based on a British curriculum that my
Speaker 1: father and a few of the other professors of the university.
Speaker 1: Because this was all brand new back in seven when
Speaker 1: we moved there, and you mentioned the oil money. Sure
Speaker 1: there was all of this new wealth, all these amazing
Speaker 1: kind of figuring out how much wealth. They were just
Speaker 1: figuring out how much wealth, and they were building universities
Speaker 1: and building hospitals. But they didn't have the talent. That's
Speaker 1: why so much of this talent was imported at the time,
Speaker 1: and my parents came in as part of that important
Speaker 1: talent exactly right. And so they helped start the school.
Speaker 1: And so I was a British school and it was international.
Speaker 1: It was actually one of the best things out like that,
Speaker 1: I think, to be exposed to so many different cultures
Speaker 1: and languages and people from all over the world. It
Speaker 1: made me comfortable. Weywhere and I think that was a
Speaker 1: big part of it, was, you know, being surrounded by
Speaker 1: people who weren't like me. So when you I mean
Speaker 1: for Americans today, you know, the Saudi Arabia is now
Speaker 1: a concentration of pilots who flew from nine eleven. It's
Speaker 1: opec and manipulation of oil prices, it's Kaso I'm talking
Speaker 1: about the contemporary American view of that country. I mean,
Speaker 1: the United States certainly has a lot of blood on
Speaker 1: its hands for things that it's done. I'm not mentioning
Speaker 1: that to condemn the Saudis, but the United States is
Speaker 1: guilty of the exact same things during its history as well.
Speaker 1: But set aside that. Back when you were there, what
Speaker 1: was your Saudi Arabia? What was your experience of the
Speaker 1: culture and the people? How do they strike you? You know?
Speaker 1: One of the very first things that really hit home
Speaker 1: when I moved to the United States, so I didn't
Speaker 1: come back. So I grew up in Saudi Arabia and
Speaker 1: I didn't live in the United States until I came
Speaker 1: to university. One of the things I missed immediately is
Speaker 1: this sense of community. And we call it, you know,
Speaker 1: in the Muslim world, we call it the oma. And
Speaker 1: the oma is the ever present community, which is you're
Speaker 1: never alone. So I tell stories in the book about
Speaker 1: how you know, you go to a party and you say,
Speaker 1: I like your shirt, and you know, the next thing
Speaker 1: you know, that shirt is sent to your house the
Speaker 1: next day. This notion of there's always you know, a
Speaker 1: seat at the table for more people, there's always food
Speaker 1: to share, You're always in a very kind of secure environment,
Speaker 1: and that is something I kind of took for granted
Speaker 1: when I was growing up there. In fact, I tell
Speaker 1: the story about when my father finally got his transplant
Speaker 1: in and he had to leave immediately to go to
Speaker 1: the United States, to New York for his transplant operation,
Speaker 1: and one of our very very close Saudi friends called
Speaker 1: my mother and said, should we take the girls and
Speaker 1: me and my siblings. You know, I was, you know, nine,
Speaker 1: My sister was e love and my younger sister was four.
Speaker 1: I'm my brother, so four of us total and I
Speaker 1: and my mother, and we were already scared of all
Speaker 1: this change. My so our friends call and said, why
Speaker 1: don't the girls move in with us, you know, while
Speaker 1: you guys are in the midst of this transplant operation.
Speaker 1: And I remember we were also scared. We said my mom, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: we don't want to go. So on the phone she
Speaker 1: makes up this excuse and she says, oh, you know,
Speaker 1: the kids have their exams and their desks and their
Speaker 1: bookcases are here, so we're okay. The next morning, there's
Speaker 1: a knock on our door and it's a moving company.
Speaker 1: And my mother's like, what are you doing here? And
Speaker 1: they're like, oh, we're here to something about books, and
Speaker 1: you know, bookshelves and desks were moving, and sure enough
Speaker 1: they moved the furniture into this family friends home. We
Speaker 1: lived with them while while my parents were in the
Speaker 1: United States. It was probably about six weeks if I
Speaker 1: remember correctly, maybe maybe two months. But this idea again
Speaker 1: of feeling, so when you leave and you come to
Speaker 1: the United States, and if you had a British centric
Speaker 1: or British fabric in the educational thing over there, but
Speaker 1: why did you come back to the U S. Could
Speaker 1: you say, I'm an American and I want to be educated,
Speaker 1: why don't you go to England to go to school?
Speaker 1: Well I had that choice. Actually, my older brother and
Speaker 1: sister chose England. And I always wanted to come to
Speaker 1: the United States. You know, back when I was growing
Speaker 1: up in Saudi, everything that was sort of aspiration, everything
Speaker 1: that was considered the best was American. You know that
Speaker 1: that is you know, back then America did seem like
Speaker 1: it and it was the sole super power in the world.
Speaker 1: Absolutely felt like it was a paradise. And so we'd
Speaker 1: come here for the summers we would stock up on
Speaker 1: all the latest magazines. We would have these bootleg movies
Speaker 1: that we would take back, all the Tom Cruise movies
Speaker 1: and you know, like Beverly Hills Night number one everywhere.
Speaker 1: He was certainly number one, you know back then, and
Speaker 1: Ralph Macchio and the Karate Kid. I'm thinking of like
Speaker 1: all of these, you know, and everything and I and
Speaker 1: I write about this. You know, my parents always raised
Speaker 1: us and look, you're American and your Muslim, and in
Speaker 1: part because they came from two countries that were at war,
Speaker 1: so they didn't try to put the burden of that
Speaker 1: identity that you have to choose whether you're Indian or
Speaker 1: Pakistani or even Saudi, you know, given the fact that
Speaker 1: we lived there and you know, felt a deep connection
Speaker 1: to it. You're an American and you're a Muslim. And
Speaker 1: so I remember, we would go all over the world.
Speaker 1: And that was one of the great beauties of having
Speaker 1: parents who are academics at Summer's off was one of
Speaker 1: the also the great advantages of being a university professor
Speaker 1: there because my parents, in the early years, in fact,
Speaker 1: I don't think I'd ever shared this, they would get
Speaker 1: four first class tickets every summer to go wherever, and
Speaker 1: so we would, you know, take these tickets and we
Speaker 1: would go to Europe and Asia, and in part because
Speaker 1: my father was sick and he wanted to explore the world.
Speaker 1: He and he didn't know how much time there's benefits
Speaker 1: to having been These were secrets from us. We did
Speaker 1: not know how ill he was. You know, I tell
Speaker 1: this story about you know, my father was barely a
Speaker 1: hundred pounds, and to me, he was a superhero. You know,
Speaker 1: he was the greatest, strongest man on the planet. But
Speaker 1: he would every spring you would say, Okay, where do
Speaker 1: you want to go this year? And he was like, okay,
Speaker 1: let's do Asia. And he said, okay. We'd pull out
Speaker 1: a map and we'd have to call the airlines back
Speaker 1: then wherever he wherever, wherever, you know, wherever, and we
Speaker 1: would be wherever we voted on and then we'd have
Speaker 1: to help planet. And my mom did all the schlopping
Speaker 1: and all the lifting, and you know, my father would
Speaker 1: be wheeled around in a wheelchair. But it was having
Speaker 1: Number one, it was a way for us to spend
Speaker 1: time together. And number two, it was a way to
Speaker 1: explore the world. And I remember my mother tells the
Speaker 1: story of how we would land in the middle of
Speaker 1: nowhere sometimes in Shannon, Ireland, you know, on our way
Speaker 1: to you know, re feel somewhere and I would get
Speaker 1: up and turn to my mother and say, is it
Speaker 1: America yet? And I have a whole chapter in my book.
Speaker 1: I mean that is what, you know, the excitement, the
Speaker 1: feeling that you know, ice cream running down my hands.
Speaker 1: You know, when we visited our family and Elmhurst Queen's,
Speaker 1: it was paradise. It was heaven. You could go anywhere
Speaker 1: in the world, and landing in JFK was the highlights.
Speaker 1: So when you came to the US, t when you
Speaker 1: return to the US to go to college, you go
Speaker 1: and you go into politics, but you study journalism as
Speaker 1: a major and policize the minor. Did you most people,
Speaker 1: I know? My point is that they go to g
Speaker 1: W for one thing only. They don't go there to
Speaker 1: play the violin. They don't there to get a scholarship
Speaker 1: for some sport they play. They go there they got
Speaker 1: politics in their blood. Was that, you know I was.
Speaker 1: I went to g W to become Christian. I'm on poor.
Speaker 1: The journalism was the goal. It was And you know,
Speaker 1: I say this all the time now when I especially
Speaker 1: when I meet younger women. I was sitting on the
Speaker 1: floor of our house and watch this brand new thing
Speaker 1: in Saudi Arabia and then this is the you know,
Speaker 1: Operation Desert Storm, Persian Gulf War, and turn on this
Speaker 1: brand new thing called CNN International, and I see this
Speaker 1: woman and she was brilliant, and she was fearless. I
Speaker 1: mean it was I looked at her and she looked
Speaker 1: like me. She looked like she came from my part
Speaker 1: of the world, and she gave this amorphous you know,
Speaker 1: I went from everything I think when I was younger.
Speaker 1: You know, my dad, I think always thought I was
Speaker 1: going to be a writer. He would, you know, say
Speaker 1: that to me, look right, right right. I was a
Speaker 1: voracious reader. I went through a prad where I thought
Speaker 1: I wanted to be a lawyer. I was really very dramatic.
Speaker 1: People would come to our house and I would say,
Speaker 1: do you want to listen to my new poem? And
Speaker 1: my siblings would roll their eyes. Like I was a
Speaker 1: performer growing up, had a lot of sort of confidence.
Speaker 1: I loved to perform, So I think I went through
Speaker 1: the period of like I want to be an actor.
Speaker 1: I want to be a singer. I want to be
Speaker 1: out there and I wanted to be a ballerie. How
Speaker 1: you ended up, but we're gonna get there. I went
Speaker 1: through all these different phases, but then and I must
Speaker 1: have been no. I was fifteen. I saw her and
Speaker 1: I said that said, that is who I want to be.
Speaker 1: And I was singularly focused on being her. And that
Speaker 1: is why I applied to g W and I journalism,
Speaker 1: and I got my degree in journalists graduate degree. I
Speaker 1: did not get a graduate of one of my regrets,
Speaker 1: but I did not get a graduated. When you end,
Speaker 1: when you do the four years at g W, and
Speaker 1: you get a degree in journalism. His journalism still the
Speaker 1: goal of because my junior year, my friend Ronnie th
Speaker 1: Timbert came to me and said, listen, I've got this
Speaker 1: great internship at the White House. I'm interning from Mike McCurry,
Speaker 1: who was then the White House Press secretary. And she
Speaker 1: actually said to me, says, you know, when you watch
Speaker 1: anybody giving a you know, a statement from that podium
Speaker 1: in the in the press room, our office is right behind.
Speaker 1: And I thought, oh my god, how better to become
Speaker 1: Christ than being behind that wall. But you know, chance
Speaker 1: you know, fate, luck, whatever it was. I got accepted.
Speaker 1: So my friend Ronnie picks up the internship application for me,
Speaker 1: I think basically filled it out for me. I gave
Speaker 1: them my you know, the essays that I used to
Speaker 1: apply to g W sent it in. Was accepted, but
Speaker 1: I wasn't put in the press office. I was put
Speaker 1: in the first Ladies policy office. Where did you first
Speaker 1: lay eyes on hillerby Clinton? And you actually talked to
Speaker 1: her and shook her hand? And so she doesn't she
Speaker 1: doesn't remember this. There's no reason she'd remember this. But
Speaker 1: the first time I laid eyes on her and shook
Speaker 1: her hand was the night of Bill Clinton's re election.
Speaker 1: So I was a White House intern and they, you know,
Speaker 1: the d n C had made accommodations that if interns
Speaker 1: wanted to go on this charter plane at the last minute,
Speaker 1: too little Rock Arkansas for election night talk about politics
Speaker 1: on steroids. I had now alec. I wasn't registered to vote.
Speaker 1: I had never. I mean, I grew up in a
Speaker 1: country that was a monarchy. Obviously there was no so
Speaker 1: you know, I went from zero to a thousand, and
Speaker 1: so I get on this plane with a bunch of
Speaker 1: interns we had to pay, you know, right, a check
Speaker 1: for I think two or fifty dollars for our ticket
Speaker 1: Land and Little Rock. We're wandering around outside and I'm
Speaker 1: just kind of just in awe. I look up and
Speaker 1: there's Wolf Blitzer. I look up. There's intoxicating So I
Speaker 1: you know, my plan had a little Rock. The elections
Speaker 1: called for Bill Clinton and the Energy and the Electricity,
Speaker 1: and they come out on stage and then they come
Speaker 1: down to work a rope line, and I was four
Speaker 1: or five people deep in and I remember leaning forward
Speaker 1: through the crowd and shaking her hand, and she looked
Speaker 1: right at me and she said thank you. And I
Speaker 1: and I have to tell you, I can't even count
Speaker 1: the number of rope lines I have walked with Hillary
Speaker 1: Clinton since then. But I remember that moment. I remember
Speaker 1: how it felt, I remember how important it felt. I
Speaker 1: remember that I felt like I made this connection. And
Speaker 1: so every time somebody wouldn't say to me, I just
Speaker 1: want to say a lot, I want to shake her hand.
Speaker 1: I got it because I remember that first moment, and
Speaker 1: when for some people it's a one, it really is
Speaker 1: a once in a lifetime to meet a president or
Speaker 1: a first lady. Was really exciting Whoma Abodeen. If you
Speaker 1: enjoy conversations with accomplished women in politics, check out my
Speaker 1: episode with United States Congresswoman Katie Porter. You know, I
Speaker 1: think there is an attitude that you know, sort of
Speaker 1: people are entitled to have Republican representation. Here. What they're
Speaker 1: entitled to is good representation, right, people who listen to them,
Speaker 1: people who fight for them, people who are not corrupt,
Speaker 1: and that can come in your Democratic or Republican forms.
Speaker 1: To hear more of my conversation with Katie Porter, go
Speaker 1: to Here's the Thing dot org. After the break, Whoma
Speaker 1: Aberdeen shares the tremendous impact of Hillary Clinton's two thousand
Speaker 1: and sixteen election. Lass. Hi'm Alec Baldwin, and you were
Speaker 1: listening to Here's the Thing. Whoma Aberdeen is fiercely intelligent, warm,
Speaker 1: and impeccably credentialed. While surely anyone would be lucky to
Speaker 1: employ her, I was curious why she stayed in the
Speaker 1: Clinton camp for twenty six years. You know, I'm getting
Speaker 1: emotional because I'm sitting at this table. She sat where
Speaker 1: you're sitting right now to do my first podcast interview
Speaker 1: after the book came out, and she's one of the
Speaker 1: people who really encouraged me to write my story that wound,
Speaker 1: to some degree does not go away. I think it
Speaker 1: is such a travesty and a loss for this century tragedy.
Speaker 1: I agree with you that she was not president in
Speaker 1: two thousand and sixteen, and how different our country and
Speaker 1: the world would have been, and it is their loss.
Speaker 1: And to see how politics has descended into this sort
Speaker 1: of really a cult of personality. I was having this
Speaker 1: conversation with a friend the other day and he was like,
Speaker 1: it's almost like you need to be a celebrity, to
Speaker 1: even a rich celebrity, to even you know, run for
Speaker 1: office and take all that apart. You know, you actually
Speaker 1: have asked me something no one's ever asked me. I
Speaker 1: kind of fell into politics to write. I mean, I
Speaker 1: wanted to be generalist, fell into politics. But why. It's
Speaker 1: because when I started being in the orbit of Bill
Speaker 1: and Hillary Clinton, forget who they were, that he was
Speaker 1: the most you know, the leader of the free world.
Speaker 1: She was the most powerful woman in the world. For them,
Speaker 1: it was all about the mission and the service and
Speaker 1: how do I make I know it sounds cliche and
Speaker 1: it sounds cheesy, but there are people who get up
Speaker 1: every single day and say, how do I make other
Speaker 1: people's lives better? And I think of all the things
Speaker 1: that I have done, there's not a space I have been,
Speaker 1: a place I have been. There isn't a person I
Speaker 1: haven't met that I want to meet. And it still
Speaker 1: does not feel the way it feels when you're out
Speaker 1: on a campaign, when you're in government and feel and
Speaker 1: know that you can make somebody's life better than you
Speaker 1: can do something and doing the right thing, and that
Speaker 1: is something I learned from her, and to see her
Speaker 1: do it part of her thing. As you well know,
Speaker 1: She's never really thought it was about her. And I
Speaker 1: think a lot of politicians and maybe even people in
Speaker 1: your line of work, they get into it. There's some
Speaker 1: degree of whether it's narcissism or some degree of you know,
Speaker 1: trying to prove one his own value. But she just
Speaker 1: she just wants to do the work. And I always said,
Speaker 1: the day I got up and she wasn't doing something interesting,
Speaker 1: or I didn't want to go to work, or I
Speaker 1: didn't want to talk to her, I would quit. And
Speaker 1: and the thing that is so insane to me is
Speaker 1: that after that election which broke us, I mean I
Speaker 1: write about it in and there are days that it
Speaker 1: comes back and you know, it haunts me. It hurts
Speaker 1: like it hurts like physically. I was around her this summer,
Speaker 1: Liz Robbins, we went to that dinner with listen, this
Speaker 1: is my friend for our listeners who she has a
Speaker 1: dinner and Bill is there a couple of summers ago.
Speaker 1: Bill is lecturing us on North Korea. And he's talking
Speaker 1: about now when the President of the United States is
Speaker 1: telling you what he wants you to know, like a
Speaker 1: little digest, a little synopsis about North Korean policy, you
Speaker 1: are I don't need to eat forget about dinner. And
Speaker 1: Liz Robbins is behind his back. She's behind built that
Speaker 1: going like this and cutting her throat like this, going
Speaker 1: you gotta tum to stop. Dinner is ready, and I'm
Speaker 1: looking at like a yeah, I'm gonna tell Bill to
Speaker 1: stop talking about North Korea. And when you're with him,
Speaker 1: you get a civics lesson. You had a political history lesson,
Speaker 1: and we did with her the same thing. But she's
Speaker 1: just I don't know what this inefftable thing in my
Speaker 1: business was. She just she's like Spencer Tracy. She's just
Speaker 1: so decent. She has a few radical empathy number one,
Speaker 1: number two, she has this she has like she says,
Speaker 1: this problem solving, Jean, you know, I think so much
Speaker 1: of it, and you know, people, and she's motivated really
Speaker 1: by not anything else. I don't think she cares about
Speaker 1: being rich and famous. I don't think she's ever cared
Speaker 1: about that. But I think knowing about her own mother's
Speaker 1: her own mother had a very very difficult childhood, was
Speaker 1: basically abandoned by her parents. And you know, her victory
Speaker 1: speech in two thousand sixteen, she was going to end
Speaker 1: with this story about She tells the story about her
Speaker 1: mother who was put on a train cross country. Her
Speaker 1: parents didn't want her and her little sister, So these
Speaker 1: two little girls under ten put on a train to
Speaker 1: go cross country to move in with her their grandparents,
Speaker 1: who also didn't really want them. And she said, you know,
Speaker 1: she imagined being on the train, sitting next to her
Speaker 1: mother and saying, it's going to be okay. You're gonna
Speaker 1: be okay, and you're gonna grow up and you're gonna
Speaker 1: have a daughter, and she will be the first woman
Speaker 1: president United States. And in the end, and to remind people,
Speaker 1: I also like to remind people when people say, why
Speaker 1: couldn't you guys, why didn't you guys have the energy
Speaker 1: and sort of why didn't you have all this energy
Speaker 1: behind you? And I'd like to remind people that three
Speaker 1: million people more than her opponent voted for her, that
Speaker 1: she did have the energy and enthusiasm and you know
Speaker 1: the forces. I do believe she writ one in two
Speaker 1: thousand and sixteen, and she did win in two You know,
Speaker 1: one of the things that you and she have in common,
Speaker 1: you were both people who your husband let you down.
Speaker 1: That's my way of putting it. Your husband's let you down.
Speaker 1: And in your case, you overcome that. You deal with
Speaker 1: that in your way, and you're very honest about it
Speaker 1: in the book, and you keep going. Crisis management has
Speaker 1: been a fundamental pillar of your career. You've worked with
Speaker 1: people who have been in crisis, and Hilary Clinton is
Speaker 1: someone who has been attacked in a way that is
Speaker 1: as ugly and so with you professionally with the Clintons
Speaker 1: for many years. In your personal life, a lot of
Speaker 1: crisis management for you. What prepared you for that? I
Speaker 1: think my childhood. I think the way I was raised,
Speaker 1: the people who raised me, the you know, whether it
Speaker 1: was conscious or subconscious. I mean this idea that I
Speaker 1: had a mother who is a superhero, you know who.
Speaker 1: My father was throwing up after his dialysis sessions and
Speaker 1: she was in the bathroom cleaning him up, and you know,
Speaker 1: propping him up and putting him at the very real
Speaker 1: I mean, these were very and you know, living in
Speaker 1: Saudi Arabia, living in a different cultures, living you know,
Speaker 1: sometimes in very frustrating moments, and always thinking all right,
Speaker 1: tomorrow is gonna be better. Tomorrow is gonna be better.
Speaker 1: And then obviously dealing with my father's death that was hard.
Speaker 1: You know, I was in denial for a while. It
Speaker 1: took two years from me to actually say out loud
Speaker 1: to people my father's dad. I was basically just you know.
Speaker 1: So I think that to some extent, there was crisis
Speaker 1: all around me kind of growing up, and I figured
Speaker 1: out how to live and dan and not only live
Speaker 1: through it, my mother tells, and move on. I mean,
Speaker 1: my my mother says, my father's favorite memory from my
Speaker 1: childhood is when I would come out of school. I
Speaker 1: would skip out of school and he would call me
Speaker 1: his gazelle. It's one of the reasons I share in
Speaker 1: the book this story about the first time I staff
Speaker 1: Hillary and her speech has forgotten in the car and
Speaker 1: she calls me on to stage and I'm kid, I'm
Speaker 1: barely twenty one, don't have the speech. And that was
Speaker 1: the moment, the moment where you basically either fall apart
Speaker 1: or say I got it. I can fix this. And
Speaker 1: I fixed it in that moment. That was twenty six
Speaker 1: years ago, and I have always figured it out, and
Speaker 1: I actually think I have figured out that I'm pretty
Speaker 1: good at it. And I don't know if that's like
Speaker 1: a marketable skill anywhere outside of politics. I'm working on
Speaker 1: that right now, but it's experience. Whose idea was the book?
Speaker 1: The book was Anna Winter's idea. No, yes, yes. It
Speaker 1: was ten days after the election. I didn't want to
Speaker 1: get out of bed, and she says, let's go to dinner,
Speaker 1: and we go to the theater and then go to dinner.
Speaker 1: And I was it was at the public and it
Speaker 1: was Cheryl Strait's Tiny Beautiful Things, and and cried and cried,
Speaker 1: and then we go to dinner and she says, I
Speaker 1: know what you should do. You should write your story.
Speaker 1: It's a great story. And I said, no, it's not
Speaker 1: I'm not going to do it. And the next day
Speaker 1: I go to Hillary and tell Hillary and I said,
Speaker 1: She's like, brilliant idea, you should do. It's a good story.
Speaker 1: I was really in denial. It was only when I
Speaker 1: went to lunch with a man getting advice on what
Speaker 1: to do next to my life, and told him most
Speaker 1: some people think I should write my book. And he
Speaker 1: was like, why would you do that? And I told
Speaker 1: people have suggested shielding. What what does he do for
Speaker 1: a living? He's also a crisis management consultant and to
Speaker 1: an extent, I mean, you know, he's in sort of
Speaker 1: the business of you know, politics and communications and um.
Speaker 1: And he says, listen, I just don't think you could
Speaker 1: ever fully explain why Hillary lost. And I don't think
Speaker 1: anyone wants to read any more about all that scandal.
Speaker 1: And it was when he used that word scandal. I
Speaker 1: walked out of that restaurant and I was writing the book.
Speaker 1: It was somebody telling me the story was unworthy. That
Speaker 1: made me right. And when I when I started right,
Speaker 1: it just poured, it poured out of me. I loved, loved,
Speaker 1: loved the writing process. And you know, and look, because
Speaker 1: you asked about Anthony and my ex husband letting me down,
Speaker 1: which he did. He was on this podcast. He was
Speaker 1: on this podcast. Yeah, that's right, he was. And you
Speaker 1: know when the first husband and wife, a couple of
Speaker 1: people have I should have brought him along. We're we're
Speaker 1: not talking about doing some interviews together because people cannot.
Speaker 1: Are still in shock. And I get stopped on the
Speaker 1: street all the time saying, I'm sure you rue the
Speaker 1: day that you met that man. In fact, somebody said
Speaker 1: that to me, you know when I launched the paperback
Speaker 1: to a couple of weeks, was like, I'm sure you
Speaker 1: rue the day you met that man. And I stopped
Speaker 1: this person and I said, you know, actually this man
Speaker 1: gave me the greatest gift in my life, and that
Speaker 1: is my son, my minion, And so no, and I
Speaker 1: and I think part of it is people didn't understand
Speaker 1: what was happening. And you know, I only now years
Speaker 1: later and we have a much greater appreciation for mental
Speaker 1: health and addiction, and and you know, back then, only
Speaker 1: certain like I felt like our friends kind of in
Speaker 1: the creative world in Hollywood really understood what was happening.
Speaker 1: And you know, but in politics, I mean to have
Speaker 1: the first what I argue was sort of twitter sex scandal.
Speaker 1: It was unheard of back then. People don't know what
Speaker 1: to do. And so we think also with him, if
Speaker 1: I made dis interjected with him that the thing is
Speaker 1: that we have so few people now in my estimation,
Speaker 1: who are really really special in politics, and your former
Speaker 1: husband was somebody who people have a lot of belief
Speaker 1: in him. He was you know, at one point, the
Speaker 1: chapter about Anthony was called Icarus because he was I mean,
Speaker 1: he really was really smart, really and as you said,
Speaker 1: you know, he was unique. He was a unicorn in
Speaker 1: a way that he was progressive, he was feisty, he
Speaker 1: was smart, he understood the policy, but more than that,
Speaker 1: he had solutions. And you know, until he ran for
Speaker 1: mayor in two thousand and thirteen and obviously lost. He'd
Speaker 1: never lost an election before two to that point. And
Speaker 1: so to not then understand the behavior, which I did not,
Speaker 1: alt like I'm being very on, I did not as
Speaker 1: somebody who grew up so disciplined and with such moderation,
Speaker 1: you know, so you know, I just knock off this
Speaker 1: behavior and not understanding that he had really fallen into
Speaker 1: and you know, his all of this compulsiveness is really
Speaker 1: kind of triggered by Facebook and Twitter that all had
Speaker 1: just started last a couple of years and then just
Speaker 1: just fall it. Really, it's a you know, talk about
Speaker 1: another tragic I think he let down a lot of people,
Speaker 1: not just you. He had people who really believed in
Speaker 1: him because in the Democratic Party we just don't have
Speaker 1: enough tough people. Now, you've been dealing with the political
Speaker 1: press your entire professional career, and some of them have been,
Speaker 1: you know, remarkably brutal and unfair. Who in your life
Speaker 1: from the conservative media when you dealt with them, did
Speaker 1: you respect and you're like that they covered her fairly? Wow?
Speaker 1: That is a questions, as said, say that I don't
Speaker 1: know the answer to. I'm not sure I could give
Speaker 1: you a name off the top of my head. Isn't
Speaker 1: that hard coming from But we lived I mean, but
Speaker 1: we lived in a different you know how you've stumped me?
Speaker 1: I mean, honestly, I can't. I think we were always
Speaker 1: on guard. And to the point that you just made
Speaker 1: about fake news versus you know, this notion of your
Speaker 1: entitled to your you know, your own opinion, but not
Speaker 1: your own facts. That's out the door now now, it's
Speaker 1: sort of you know what is fact what is fiction?
Speaker 1: And I struggle to come up with a single name
Speaker 1: of somebody who I thought was very Look, we had
Speaker 1: challenges with the New York Times, where there were stories
Speaker 1: that were just filled with in accuracies. Whoma Aberdeen, if
Speaker 1: you're enjoying this conversation, tell a friend and be sure
Speaker 1: to follow Here's the Thing on the I Heart radio app,
Speaker 1: Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. When we come back.
Speaker 1: Whoma Abodeen ponders whether a political candidacy is in her future.
Speaker 1: I'm Autlec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing.
Speaker 1: Whoma Aberdeen was vice chair of Hillary Clinton's two thousand
Speaker 1: sixteen presidential campaign. After such an unexpected and painful loss,
Speaker 1: I was curious what she thought it would take for
Speaker 1: the United States to finally elect a female president. I
Speaker 1: think this is a generational thing. I mean, I'm raising
Speaker 1: a son, and I am raising my son not just
Speaker 1: to respect women, but not fear their power. And I
Speaker 1: think it's conscious and subconscious, this notion of when you
Speaker 1: close your eyes and you see somebody who's in charge,
Speaker 1: do you ever see it as a woman? No, you
Speaker 1: see it as a man, and how do we change that?
Speaker 1: And I think you and I are you know of
Speaker 1: a generation that that's it's going to be very hard
Speaker 1: to change. And it's proven an election over and over again.
Speaker 1: I mean, look at this battle of Kafie Hokele going
Speaker 1: through right now in New York. I mean it is
Speaker 1: I guarantee you if she was not a woman, I'm
Speaker 1: not sure she would it would be as neck and neck.
Speaker 1: But it's women, and it's and this notion of ambition,
Speaker 1: you know, the idea that people always look at us
Speaker 1: whenever we are the victim, when we were in service
Speaker 1: of I mean Hillary was always most popular when you know,
Speaker 1: during impeachment in her husband's administration, and then when she
Speaker 1: served Obama. In the minute she says I'm in her
Speaker 1: approval numbers just go down significantly. In that thing. It
Speaker 1: is the minute a woman is seen as being ambitious
Speaker 1: for power or being in charge, that all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: something subconsciously and this is not just men, this is
Speaker 1: men and women subconsciously off in her head saying no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: that can happen women who still support the patriarchy. I
Speaker 1: find that mesmerizing women who are enemies of candidacies like
Speaker 1: Hillo bas and stuff with that. We would knock on
Speaker 1: doors early on the primary, and women you know in
Speaker 1: Iowa would say, I'm gonna caucus for Hillary. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: caucus for Hillary. Wink wink, but you know, making sure
Speaker 1: their husbands didn't here, and then sure enough on caucus
Speaker 1: day they just did what their husbands were doing or
Speaker 1: told them to do. Whatever it is. It's just it is.
Speaker 1: It is a generational thing that we have to change.
Speaker 1: Are you going to run? You know? Part of it, Well,
Speaker 1: I haven't really what I people that's demographic idolize. Well.
Speaker 1: I so this is my year of saying yes, I'm
Speaker 1: doing all kinds of crazy things this year that I
Speaker 1: would have never said yes to two years ago. For example,
Speaker 1: I mean this, I'm doing interviews, I'm giving speeches, I'm
Speaker 1: you know, I'm just exploring the world. I'm seeing things
Speaker 1: and meeting people. I'm just doing things I would have
Speaker 1: in the olden days. I don't have time for this.
Speaker 1: I don't have time for social life. I don't have time.
Speaker 1: You know, it's always about work, and now I'm just
Speaker 1: you know, finding more time to all those things. So
Speaker 1: I hate when I say, Okay, I'm definitely not running
Speaker 1: for office. I don't see a path. I don't see
Speaker 1: that I would. But I'm in this never say never,
Speaker 1: but just I don't. I don't see it. I'm also
Speaker 1: agnostic about You've never seen the path? Have you? The
Speaker 1: woman that wanted to be Christian? I'm on poor one
Speaker 1: that's in the Sliding Doors biography of Homopoty. You've never
Speaker 1: seen the path? You were like me in the sense
Speaker 1: of my whole life has been people who go a
Speaker 1: B or C and also then go, which do I
Speaker 1: really want a B or C? And the answer is
Speaker 1: d something that wasn't even on the table eighteen months
Speaker 1: And that's the train I got on. Well, that's the cliff.
Speaker 1: You know, the book was originally the prolog was originally
Speaker 1: called the cliff. I'm kind of standing on the precipice
Speaker 1: of that cliff, and I chose to jump. And I
Speaker 1: always envisioned that it was going to be really bad.
Speaker 1: Jumping just meant hitting the ground, and how much pain
Speaker 1: was that going to be? And it's an opportunity as well.
Speaker 1: And this is just my opinion. I mean, I'm not
Speaker 1: trying to give you advice here. I'm not trying to
Speaker 1: concourage you to run for office, but the point is
Speaker 1: is that it's an opportunity. Even if you lose, you
Speaker 1: don't go into a think here to It's a chance
Speaker 1: for you to put on the record what you believe
Speaker 1: about this guy and this government. So two more quick things.
Speaker 1: One is you're developing a television series based on your
Speaker 1: memoir and you went ahead, and I can't believe you
Speaker 1: wouldn't cast the unspeakably unattractive and untalented Frieda Pinto to
Speaker 1: play you. I mean, what the hell are you thinking?
Speaker 1: Freda Pinto is going to play you in the TV show.
Speaker 1: I was stunned that she wanted to do it. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm a big admirer of hers, But more than that,
Speaker 1: I was and I met I met with a lot
Speaker 1: of people, and I didn't know where. I had never
Speaker 1: met her in all these years. But she got the book,
Speaker 1: she got the story, she got the character. And I think,
Speaker 1: while I'm gratified a lot of people have read the book,
Speaker 1: I think a lot more people watch it on screen
Speaker 1: and this if there is some sort of service or
Speaker 1: interest in the book. I mean, I'm just beyond thrilled
Speaker 1: that she's doing and I can't wait for so Now,
Speaker 1: if we're going to end, I want you to read
Speaker 1: that this is a letter. Tell tell us about this letter.
Speaker 1: Where is this this? This is a note I found
Speaker 1: just buried in my dad's papers years after he died.
Speaker 1: And I thought it was a message, you know, from
Speaker 1: the and and I think it was just something. You know,
Speaker 1: he would scribble these notes down. And he had a
Speaker 1: folder called Random Reflections, and this was from his random
Speaker 1: reflections folder. And it's titled thought for the Day. As
Speaker 1: an American, a Muslim, and as a member of a
Speaker 1: fairly decent family, a commitment should be a commitment, whatever
Speaker 1: the provocation. It should not influence you to act in
Speaker 1: an unbecoming manner. You have to be fair, honest, and direct.
Speaker 1: If you can't stand the heat, then, as Truman said,
Speaker 1: get out of the kitchen. But your exit should be graceful, decent,
Speaker 1: and above board. Let others do what they will. You
Speaker 1: are responsible in the first instance, to yourself, your principles
Speaker 1: and values, and ultimately to God. Yeahweh Allah, your loving father.
Speaker 1: And I feel as though this was a note that
Speaker 1: he left for us to remind us what's important about
Speaker 1: how to walk through this earth. And you've lived that.
Speaker 1: I've tried to you live that, and I want you
Speaker 1: to know. See, the thing about you is I'm gonna
Speaker 1: end with the blessing and the curse, the sweet and
Speaker 1: the sour, and that is you are a very special
Speaker 1: and gifted person. But of course with that comes tremendous
Speaker 1: burdens as well, and tremendous demands. It's a blessing and
Speaker 1: a curse. You have a lot of burdens on you.
Speaker 1: This is choking me up here, and you have and
Speaker 1: when it comes a burden. But we hope we're going
Speaker 1: to see more of this woman that's in this book.
Speaker 1: I want to see. I can't wait to see what
Speaker 1: she's going to do well. From your lips to God's ears,
Speaker 1: I just I'm so I'm excited, thrilled, terrified, all those things.
Speaker 1: But I'm continuing why you're saying, s Huma Aberdeen. This
Speaker 1: episode was recorded at CDM Studios in New York City.
Speaker 1: We're produced by Kathleen so Zach McNeice and Maureen Hoban.
Speaker 1: Our engineer is Frank Imperial. Our social media manager is
Speaker 1: Danielle Gingrich. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing is brought
Speaker 1: to you by iHeart Radio