1 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:11,239 Speaker 1: You place your left hand on the Bible and raise 2 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: your right hand and repeat after me. I you solemnly 3 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 1: swear the jury trying it defended, not scared the process, 4 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: and this weekend in Ferguson and around the country, resistant 5 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: makes no sense. If it doesn't fit, you must equip judge. 6 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 1: You are the last line of reason in this case. 7 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: Every one of us took an all sub office and 8 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 1: we're scorn to uphold the Constitution. From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta, 9 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 1: this is sworn. I'm your host, Philip Holloway. On this 10 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:48,920 Speaker 1: Closing Statements episode, We've reached out to Johnny Mueller and 11 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 1: Mike Freer, two of the original detectives assigned to Tiffany 12 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 1: Witten's case in the very beginning. We've already talked to 13 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: John Dawes, the current lead investigator at the Cobb County 14 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 1: Cold Case Unit, but we felt it was in portant 15 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 1: to talk to the two people who know the most 16 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 1: about Tiffany's case besides John Dawes and Lisa Daniels. And 17 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:09,679 Speaker 1: that's Detective Mohler and Detective Freer from the Marriotta Police Department. 18 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 1: I'm Johnny Moehler. I am a police officer here with 19 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 1: Marietta Police. I've been employed here for almost seventeen years now. 20 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:23,040 Speaker 1: I am currently assigned to our training Academy UM I 21 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:28,039 Speaker 1: train new recruits and already certified officers. Prior to that, 22 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 1: I spent ten years in our detective division working homicide 23 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: in crimes against persons. Okay, so about how long after 24 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 1: her disappearance did you get involved? Actually, our department did 25 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:45,320 Speaker 1: not get involved until January, when Tiffany's mom, Lisa, came 26 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: to the department to make a missing person's report. So 27 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 1: we were already way behind the curve when the report 28 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 1: was made, because Tiffany went missing in September and it 29 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: was almost four months later in Jane wary Um when 30 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 1: she was reported missing by her mom to us, and 31 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 1: then that's when we became aware of the case and 32 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 1: got involved. It's just one of those cases that stays 33 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 1: with you at that point. When when I started working 34 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:16,799 Speaker 1: the case, I had been in detectives for nine years, 35 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 1: you know, working homicides and those type cases, and this 36 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 1: was the first case in my time back there as 37 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: far as serious cases where that I wasn't actually able 38 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 1: to bring to a resolution. It's not officially a homicide 39 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 1: case at this point, but you know, all facts are 40 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: are pointing to that at this point. It's really the 41 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 1: only homicide case that I haven't resolved in my ten 42 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 1: years and detectives, and so it just it does bother me. 43 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 1: It hangs over my head, you know, not being able 44 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 1: to bring closure, bring answers for Lesa and her family. 45 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 1: And as I worked the case, you know, over the 46 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 1: year time that I worked the case, you know, I 47 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 1: got to know Lisa, I to know her family, and 48 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 1: it was just heartbreaking to see the the effects that 49 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 1: it had on her entire family. There are definitely people 50 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 1: out there who know what happened, and that's the frustrating 51 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:15,519 Speaker 1: part for me as an investigator, you know, because it's 52 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: like beating your head against the wall. You know that 53 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: that people know, but they're just not willing to to 54 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: talk talk to the police or to come forward and 55 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:27,519 Speaker 1: tell what they know. And that's that's the most frustrating. 56 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 1: When you first started on the case, what was the 57 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 1: first thing that you did. The first thing that I 58 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 1: did was I I called Lisa, so I wanted to 59 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: talk to her and and get um as much information 60 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 1: as I could about Tiffany and kind of what we 61 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 1: referred to as victimology, you know, find out who Tiffany was, 62 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 1: what she was about, you know, what her habits were, 63 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 1: and all of that stuff, and and to try and 64 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 1: get a field for you know what, what may have happened. 65 00:03:56,240 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 1: And no one better knows, you know, they're child than 66 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: a mother. So, UM, I knew when I talked to 67 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 1: Lisa after I got handed the case, I immediately went 68 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 1: to my desk and I called Lisa and I said, hey, 69 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: you know, tell me what you can about Tiffany. And 70 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 1: we probably spoke for maybe an hour and a half, 71 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 1: and you know, she told me a lot of things 72 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 1: about Tiffany, about her past, you know, good and bad, 73 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 1: and she told me things that just um, you know, 74 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:30,039 Speaker 1: as a mother she would know, you know, and it 75 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:32,679 Speaker 1: just the things that she was telling me just didn't 76 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: add up. It didn't make sense. And I just felt 77 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:37,920 Speaker 1: like in my heart that you know, something was was 78 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 1: seriously wrong. At some point Tiffany would have reached out 79 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 1: in in that four month time frame, if not to Lisa, 80 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 1: to another member of the family, UM, and she hadn't 81 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 1: done so, so I knew that we had a um 82 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: a long road ahead. UM to figure out exactly what 83 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 1: had happened. You have to look at all the factors. Um. 84 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 1: Did her lifestyle put her in a UM more vulnerable 85 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: position to be victimized? Yeah? I believe so, UM, you know, 86 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 1: but ultimately what happened to her is the responsibility of 87 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:16,280 Speaker 1: the person who who did that? You know who UM 88 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:22,600 Speaker 1: is responsible for her disappearance and her missing UM. So yeah, 89 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 1: absolutely I think her lifestyle contributed to that. UM, But 90 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 1: certainly I'm in no way blaming her because she's not 91 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 1: responsible for What did you learn about the people that 92 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:40,479 Speaker 1: Tiffany ran with? M hmm? Some interesting characters, for sure? 93 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:44,800 Speaker 1: Have you talked to many of them? I've talked to 94 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 1: more than I could probably even count, just tirelessly talked 95 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: to people. I've gone to the jail day after day 96 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 1: after day to talk to people who've been arrested who 97 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: ran in the same circles as to any just in 98 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:05,039 Speaker 1: hopes of somebody having a piece of a bit of 99 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:08,280 Speaker 1: information that Mike could help. You know, We've even tried 100 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: working with people who have criminal charges and hopes that 101 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:17,359 Speaker 1: you know, UM, they might be willing to come forward 102 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 1: and exchange information. It's just been exhausting, the number of 103 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 1: people that I've encountered in this case, you know, in 104 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 1: some a lot of the same people I've interviewed time 105 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 1: and time again, UM in the midst of the years 106 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: that I worked on it. You know, we're fortunate enough 107 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 1: to have that video um as a result of the 108 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:41,160 Speaker 1: shoplifting incident. UM. So that's kind of a blessing for 109 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: us in that sense. UM. But I definitely believe that 110 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: whatever happened to her happened a short time after UM 111 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:54,479 Speaker 1: the Walmart incident. It's the most frustrating part, and it's 112 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: by far the most frustrating case that I've ever worked 113 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 1: in my career. Um M. It's one of those cases 114 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 1: where you do everything that you know to do, and 115 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 1: then you do some more. You know, you try different 116 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 1: things or try new things that you've never even thought 117 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: of in the past on other cases. But it's once 118 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 1: you exhaust all of your all your other avenues, you're 119 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 1: you're left with nothing, and but you still want to 120 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 1: try and move forward and create some sort of you know, 121 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 1: activity on the case or chatter and Tiffany's circle of 122 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 1: acquaintances or friends or whatever you want to call them. 123 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: It's it's frustrating very frustrating. What was the last thing 124 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:42,119 Speaker 1: you got to do on the case? The last thing 125 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 1: we searched? UM. We searched some areas for her UM. 126 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 1: We had gotten a couple of tips and search in 127 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: abandoned farm type area UM. And we also did a 128 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 1: search UM at a resident Grisham Road. Is that one 129 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 1: of the places that that is one of the places 130 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 1: that we did search? Yes, and we have we have 131 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 1: taken cadaver dogs two different parts of the county UM 132 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 1: doing searches and digging and looking and tracking. UM. These 133 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 1: from tips that have come in or they're from tips, 134 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 1: they're from UM leads that we have developed, you know, 135 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 1: through work in the case and interviewing people and and 136 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 1: those kind of things. That nothing's turned up of any 137 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: of it. Now, how do you feel about leaving the 138 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 1: case where you're proud of any of the headway that 139 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: you've made on the case. UM. Do you feel like 140 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 1: you left it in good hands? I do. I think 141 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 1: initially the case was probably looked at as you know 142 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:04,200 Speaker 1: a lot of did detectives look at missing persons cases UM, 143 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:08,560 Speaker 1: and they look at you know, a person's history and 144 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 1: background and you know, what's there their normal behavior, and 145 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 1: and all those kind of things. UM. And when you 146 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 1: look at Tiffany's case on the on the surface, you know, 147 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 1: it appears to be just one of those normal kind 148 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:25,200 Speaker 1: of cases of well, she might be on a drug 149 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 1: binge or she's just you know, mad at her family 150 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 1: and out of contact. But then as you start really 151 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 1: looking into it a little bit deeper, you start to 152 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 1: see some of the issues that you know, cost concern 153 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: that are out of the ordinary. And you know, I 154 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 1: think that initially the case probably got looked at as 155 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 1: just one of those cases that you know, oh, she'll 156 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 1: turn up. And as time went on, and as I 157 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 1: started working the case and started interviewing people, I started 158 00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: to realize that, you know, things we're not adding up, um, 159 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 1: and that something was terribly wrong. But I feel like that, 160 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 1: you know, I was able to take the case basically 161 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 1: from nothing, and you know, work it for an entire year. Um, 162 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:18,319 Speaker 1: work it exhaustively for an entire year, and I felt 163 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 1: like that I got it to a point where, you know, 164 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 1: without another significant break in the case, it wasn't it 165 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 1: was kind of at a stopping point. And so I 166 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: was kind of in a limbo state at that time 167 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:37,440 Speaker 1: to where you know, I was kind of just waiting 168 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 1: for another piece of information because I had exhausted so 169 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 1: many of the leads and things that tips that we 170 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 1: had gotten prior to that. So, UM, I mean, I'm 171 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 1: proud of the work that I did. It was it 172 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 1: was exhaustive, but you know, I felt like that I 173 00:10:55,559 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: got at least got some answers for Lisa. Mm hmm um, Okay, 174 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 1: I get up sevenhen I think about Lisa because I 175 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 1: know what she's calling through. So Lisa is a is 176 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 1: a remarkable woman, um, And I'm I feel very fortunate to, 177 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 1: you know, considering the unfortunate circumstances, I feel very fortunate 178 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 1: to have gotten to know her over the year that 179 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: I worked the case and got to know her family. 180 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 1: And you know, she's a very very strong woman, and 181 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 1: she's raising Tiffany's daughter, um as well as you know, 182 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 1: Tiffany's older sister, and I just, you know, I don't 183 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:53,080 Speaker 1: see how she does it from day to day, you know. Um. 184 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 1: I remember one evening, this is while I was still 185 00:11:57,120 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 1: in detectives, I got a call from Lisa, and Lisa 186 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 1: said a Tiffany's daughter who she had custody of, had 187 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 1: asked her that day. You know, what happened to my mommy? 188 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 1: Is my mommy dead? You know, and that's just heartbreaking. 189 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:17,080 Speaker 1: You know, it's heartbreaking to know that Tiffany has a mother, 190 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 1: a daughter, a sister, um family out there who loves 191 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:23,679 Speaker 1: her and cares about her, you know, despite her lifestyle 192 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 1: or the circumstances surrounding her disappearance. Do you believe that 193 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: Tiffany is still out there? I would like to believe 194 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:39,199 Speaker 1: for Lisa's sake, you know that she is in my heart, 195 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: you know, I feel like that she's not on this 196 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 1: earth anymore. But I understand also for Lisa that, you know, 197 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 1: there is always that glimmer of hope until she has 198 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:54,840 Speaker 1: the closure of you know, knowing for certain. And I 199 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 1: think that's the most devastating part for her family, is 200 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 1: the not knowing. Lisa and I have talked about this, 201 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 1: but we've talked about you know, there have been some 202 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 1: positives that have come from it. You know, after I 203 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 1: left detectives, after spending ten years work in those kind 204 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:14,679 Speaker 1: of cases and those kind of crimes, I just felt 205 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 1: like it was time I needed a break, and a 206 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:20,679 Speaker 1: position in our training academy became available, and so I 207 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: took that position, and Lisa and I had talked prior 208 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:30,080 Speaker 1: to me leaving detectives about, you know, how great it 209 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: would be to be able to train um, other officers 210 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:38,560 Speaker 1: and other investigators and how to look at these cases 211 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: and to look at them a little bit differently and 212 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 1: not just as a number, not just as a statistic, 213 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 1: but as you know, as a as a person, as 214 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 1: this being somebody's family member. I ended up developing a 215 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: missing person's investigation class um that I teach to other 216 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 1: investigators now, you know, And it's kind of the good 217 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 1: and the bad and the ugly of these kind of 218 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: investigations and lessons learned that I learned from work in 219 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 1: this case, you know that I try to share with 220 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: other investigators now, so you know, there are a few 221 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 1: positives that have come, you know, from from such a 222 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 1: sad case. When you work these these types of cases, 223 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 1: and and you've done this job for a long time, 224 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 1: you do have a tendency to become jaded and the 225 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: things that you see and experience, you know, My hope 226 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: is that even through all of that, whenever one of 227 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 1: these cases comes across, you know, a detective's desk, that 228 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 1: they take a second to think about it and and 229 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: and realize that, hey, this is this is someone's loved one, 230 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 1: this is someone's daughter, son, mother, father, um. And they 231 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 1: keep that in the back of their minds whenever, you know, 232 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: they move forward throughout the case because there are people 233 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 1: that that care about them despite the circumstances, and and 234 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 1: that do want answers and that deserve answers. Do you 235 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 1: think enough is being done on the case right now? 236 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 1: I do believe so. I mean, unfortunately, you know, we're 237 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 1: four plus years into it now and the leads are 238 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 1: just not there like they used to be. The tips, 239 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 1: you know, are not there. So certainly I do believe 240 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: that if if tips are coming in, that they are 241 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 1: being followed up on and they are being worked as 242 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 1: they should be. I think the problem is is there's 243 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 1: just not really enough information coming in. Honestly, the case 244 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 1: was a cold case when we got it um, because 245 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 1: we were already four months behind the behind the curve, 246 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 1: and so it's just continued as we you know, have 247 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 1: moved forward to get colder and colder. And really all 248 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 1: it's gonna take, though, is is someone coming forward with 249 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 1: the right piece of information and to tie everything together. 250 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: You know, typically when women go missing or have been murdered, 251 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 1: it's usually someone that's close to her or an acquaintance. 252 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 1: It's not generally a stranger on stranger type crime, so 253 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 1: it's usually someone that knows her that is, you know, um, boyfriend, husband, spouse, 254 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 1: something of that nature. So those are typically the people 255 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 1: that we always look at first. Anyway, just statistically speaking, 256 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 1: but any time that we've explored other options, we still 257 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 1: keep coming back to the same path. Do you still 258 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 1: talk to John Dawes about the case? I do talk 259 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 1: to John, and we always talk about the case. Anytime 260 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 1: I I see him, I ask him, you know, any 261 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 1: any new leads, any updates, anything going on, um, you know, 262 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: in hopes that one day he may have a bit 263 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 1: of news for me, you know, or I'll get a 264 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 1: phone call one day and to say, hey, you know, 265 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:06,200 Speaker 1: we got something here. You know, that's the hope. Anyway, Hello, 266 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: Hi Mike, how are you good? How are you good? 267 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 1: It's great to talk to you, you too, wonderful. Could 268 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:14,639 Speaker 1: we start really quickly with an introduction. You just tell 269 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 1: us your name and your title. Michael frere former marry 270 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:21,160 Speaker 1: at a police detective. Awesome, and you were the first 271 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 1: detective on Tiffany's witness case or the second the second 272 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:27,199 Speaker 1: detective Muller was the first, Okay, And when did you 273 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:32,120 Speaker 1: get involved? Um? Once Detectivemullar got transferred to a different unit, 274 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:34,640 Speaker 1: I was assigned the case, so I got involved immediately 275 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 1: after she left the unit. And so I know that 276 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:41,399 Speaker 1: this happened in two thousand thirteen. So what year do 277 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 1: you get involved. I believe I got involved at the 278 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 1: end of two thousand fourteen into two thousand fifteen. And 279 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 1: how long were you on the case. I was on 280 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 1: the case for over a year, and then I was 281 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 1: transferred to the training unit, and so that's why your 282 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:01,200 Speaker 1: involvement in the case stopped. Yeah, did stop when I 283 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 1: got transferred and it was assigned to somebody else. So 284 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 1: what was the very first thing you did on this 285 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:10,440 Speaker 1: case after Mueller passed it over to you. The first 286 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 1: thing I did is I reviewed the whole case file 287 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:16,159 Speaker 1: again until I actually sat down with Johnny Mueller and 288 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 1: talked to her about it and where we were going. 289 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:22,439 Speaker 1: And the first thing I did after that after reviewing 290 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:27,639 Speaker 1: the case is myself another detective went down to Columbus, 291 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 1: Georgia to prison down there and interviewed Ashley Caudle again. 292 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 1: Because Johnny had already interviewed him, I decided to see 293 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 1: maybe he'll be a little more talkative with a different detective. 294 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:43,440 Speaker 1: So myself and another detective went down to Columbus and 295 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:46,920 Speaker 1: interviewed him. It's not about a forty five minute interview. 296 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 1: Nothing new came out of him. He basically followed the 297 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 1: pattern he told Detective Mueller, you know of what happened 298 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:58,359 Speaker 1: the night that Tiffany disappeared. But I wanted to just 299 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 1: look him in the face because I had never dealt 300 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 1: with him before. So that's the main reason I went 301 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 1: down there, is just to see who I was dealing with. 302 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:07,639 Speaker 1: What was it like looking him in the face. He 303 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:11,120 Speaker 1: was what I expected what Johnny had told me, arrogant 304 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 1: and uh full of himself. And once I got down there, 305 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:17,920 Speaker 1: and as soon as he started talking, and I I said, 306 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:19,439 Speaker 1: we're not gonna gaily knew out of him. He's just 307 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 1: gonna tell the same same stuff he's told everybody else. 308 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 1: But I had to do it, you know, it had 309 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:27,160 Speaker 1: to be done so right. And did he seem receptive 310 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 1: to talking? Was he he did? He like he talked 311 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 1: a lot, not anything that He talked about things that 312 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 1: really didn't involve her disappearance. You know, he'd go off subject. 313 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 1: I had to bring him back the subject. But he 314 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 1: talked a lot. He talked about his family life and 315 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 1: how he's he's unable to have an access to anything. 316 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:50,679 Speaker 1: And he was basically whining about how he was treated 317 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 1: in prison. And like I just said, don't listen to 318 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 1: his prison and it's not to do with me. I don't. 319 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 1: I'm not in charge of being in here, you know, 320 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:01,200 Speaker 1: here incarcerated for something else. I'm just here to get information. 321 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:03,399 Speaker 1: And then he would get back on subject for a 322 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 1: little while, and I asked him about, you know, go 323 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 1: over them one to night when it just when she 324 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 1: disappeared and all that, and he would just tell me 325 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:13,239 Speaker 1: the same thing that he told Detective Moller. You know, 326 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 1: he didn't know what happened to her, you know, blah 327 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,479 Speaker 1: blah blah. Then he go off subject again and all Honestly, 328 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 1: it was a waste of my time to go down there, 329 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:23,199 Speaker 1: but I, you know, I figured might as well do it, 330 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 1: you know, that's the right thing to do anyway, right, 331 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 1: to look him in the face and see did he 332 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:33,200 Speaker 1: ever seemed like he had any feelings of sadness or 333 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 1: remorse or like missed Tiffany. He mentioned that he missed her, 334 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:40,679 Speaker 1: and you know, oh yeah, his thing was if I 335 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:43,120 Speaker 1: could help find her, I would, you know, he came 336 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:46,919 Speaker 1: across is aloof to the whole thing, you know, like whatever, 337 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 1: you know, he would tell me, you know, I loved 338 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:51,639 Speaker 1: I hope they find her, hope she's all right. But 339 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 1: in my opinion, he didn't seem like he really gave 340 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:56,920 Speaker 1: her care in the world about whatever happened to her, 341 00:20:57,320 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 1: just you know, based on looking at him in the 342 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 1: eye and talk to him. Did he ever talk about 343 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 1: Tiffany anything personal about her, like her personal life, or 344 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 1: talk about her characteristics or was it just surface stuff 345 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,400 Speaker 1: and stuff he did. He talked a little bit about 346 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:16,920 Speaker 1: her mom and however mom thinks that he was involved. 347 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:21,399 Speaker 1: Obviously he doesn't care for for a lease at all. 348 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 1: I looked at him, and I didn't say what I 349 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 1: wanted to say, but yeah, but I kept it professional. 350 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:29,959 Speaker 1: But you know, he basically started talking about how Lesa's 351 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 1: thinks he was involved and he's not. She's out to 352 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 1: get him. But so I had to bring him back 353 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:37,159 Speaker 1: from that again and get him back on you know, 354 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 1: all we ever talked about Tiffany was surf official stuff 355 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 1: and how you know I wouldn't involved. I wish I 356 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 1: could help you find her and all that type of stuff. 357 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 1: He never dealt into anything. It was really a very 358 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 1: frustrating interview. As the other detectives said in their way 359 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:52,640 Speaker 1: home the Atlanta, he said, that was a waste of time. 360 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:55,920 Speaker 1: And do you think that it's possible he would ever 361 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 1: veer from his story on his own initiative of his 362 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 1: own Um, you know, the only way he would change 363 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:06,400 Speaker 1: his story is if it benefited him. He's out for himself. 364 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,920 Speaker 1: Just Johnny realized that when she interviewed him. I'm sure. 365 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: And then I realized that he's only he's out for himself. 366 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:14,640 Speaker 1: If he can get any do anything to make himself 367 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:18,920 Speaker 1: look better and get out of his predicament of being 368 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 1: in jail for drugs, he would do it. But otherwise, No, 369 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:25,919 Speaker 1: how long is he in there for, Dad, I don't know. 370 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: I know it was a drug charge. I think it 371 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:30,640 Speaker 1: was a trafficking charge, but I'm not sure how long 372 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:32,679 Speaker 1: he's in there. He got transferred from that prison to 373 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 1: another one, which I don't know which one he went into. 374 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: So that was the very first thing you did on 375 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 1: the case. So what was the very last thing you 376 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:40,400 Speaker 1: did on the case. There was a lot of things, 377 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:42,639 Speaker 1: I mean I did. Uh. We interviewed a guy at 378 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 1: the jail who said he had information at the cop 379 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:47,880 Speaker 1: County jail. We followed up on what he told us 380 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 1: and that turned out to be nothing. He was another 381 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 1: person involved in the drug world. I can't give you 382 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,640 Speaker 1: his name, but he because he's still involved in other things. 383 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: But he gave us some information with we followed up 384 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 1: on and it was a dead end. Gave us some names. 385 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 1: I only found one of the person that he gave us. 386 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,439 Speaker 1: An interview that person about what he knew, and he 387 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 1: basically said, well, this is what I heard. This is 388 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:15,680 Speaker 1: what I heard. So he's its secondhand knowledge. I've never 389 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 1: been able to get firsthand knowledge. Is somebody actually knows 390 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 1: saw her that night and knows what happened to her. 391 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 1: So I would get oh, I heard you know the 392 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,840 Speaker 1: old I heard. Well, I heard that she disappeared. I 393 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:29,919 Speaker 1: heard that she was in a truck. I heard, But 394 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 1: you know, it's nothing concrete. So do you believe that 395 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 1: someone out there has that firsthand knowledge? Yes, I firmly 396 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 1: believe that somebody knows. And the only way I think 397 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 1: that that's ever going to come out at this person 398 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 1: that knows, or these people maybe there's more than one 399 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,159 Speaker 1: his face with a situation where I better give you 400 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 1: this information because it's going to help me. I really 401 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 1: think that some of these people have come forward with 402 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 1: the information are just looking for an angle and they're 403 00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 1: just repeating with other people said. I definitely think there's 404 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 1: people out there that, you know, what happened to her, 405 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 1: know where she is, and I wish somebody would come 406 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 1: forward and do that and contacted Cop Count of d 407 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:13,439 Speaker 1: A's office and and tell them listen, this is my situation. 408 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,959 Speaker 1: But I know exactly what happened that night because somebody knows. 409 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 1: Besides Ashley, somebody knows. I think so too, And it's 410 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,400 Speaker 1: so frustrating, just I mean because at least it's such 411 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:28,399 Speaker 1: a great lady. It's just I just and her family 412 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: is very nice. I just want something good to come 413 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 1: out of it, you know, just some closure for them, 414 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 1: because obviously nothing they know. There's very little if no 415 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,439 Speaker 1: chance that she's still with us. So but we'd like 416 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:43,640 Speaker 1: to be able to give that family something to remember where, hey, 417 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 1: we can we have a place we can put her 418 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,119 Speaker 1: for her final arresting place and said wherever she is, 419 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 1: you know, right. So that's the most frustrating part about 420 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 1: the case because I did a lot of interviews, I 421 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 1: made phone calls, granted, and the whole thing with that, 422 00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: I was still working. I was a homicide detecting, married too, 423 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:01,399 Speaker 1: my sides at the same time I was trying to 424 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 1: work Tiffany, so you know, I tried to work it 425 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 1: when I could. It was frustrating, and I know Lisa 426 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,920 Speaker 1: was frustrated, and everybody's frustrated. Really, why were you assigned 427 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 1: Tiffany's case? Because I was crimes against persons and they 428 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 1: knew that. I. Uh, Johnny and I are pretty close, 429 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 1: and in fact, I was her training officer when she 430 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 1: got hired, so they thought I'd be the best person 431 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:26,720 Speaker 1: for the job. Because you know, I'm not bragging anything, 432 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:28,439 Speaker 1: but once I get ahold of something, I'd like to 433 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:30,879 Speaker 1: work it till I can work it no longer. You know, 434 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:33,359 Speaker 1: how did you feel when you were leading the case? 435 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 1: You know that The thing is, I didn't feel real 436 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 1: good because I didn't think I made any progress at all. 437 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,400 Speaker 1: You know, I thought I worked it, but I don't. 438 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 1: I didn't think I made it any closer to finding really, 439 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 1: just because of saying I was getting the same story 440 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:50,560 Speaker 1: from all the different people and the same leads were 441 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 1: dead ends. And I worked really hard, but I don't 442 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 1: think I really made a dent and it, to be 443 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:57,879 Speaker 1: honest with you, because nobody was telling me the truth, 444 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 1: you know, so they took it away from me. Granted 445 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,119 Speaker 1: I was getting transferred. I just felt like I didn't 446 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,360 Speaker 1: really get Lesa any I didn't do anything different than 447 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,680 Speaker 1: than Johnny had because we still hadn't gotten to the 448 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 1: I was hoping when I got the case, you know, 449 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 1: we could find a conclusion for her, but we never did. 450 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:20,359 Speaker 1: So it was very frustrating, and it's still frustrating today 451 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 1: because I still, you know, I think about it, and 452 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:24,719 Speaker 1: then of course you hear about it. Even though I'm 453 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,200 Speaker 1: retired now, I still, you know, I still have Plus 454 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,159 Speaker 1: I see my friends with Lesa on Facebook, so I 455 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,720 Speaker 1: can see the frustration in her too. So I didn't 456 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 1: feel like I made a difference in the whole thing. 457 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 1: To be honest with you, is there something in particular 458 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,440 Speaker 1: that you wish you could have accomplished. Well, the main 459 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 1: thing besides finding her obviously, is find that certain person 460 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:47,639 Speaker 1: that knows what happened. Like I said earlier, there's somebody 461 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 1: out there that knows what happened. And the thing is 462 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 1: with the whole drug world. And I worked in narcotics 463 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 1: for years before I became a detective. They're all liars. 464 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 1: They're only out for themselves. You know. That's the real 465 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:05,399 Speaker 1: frustrating because the drug world, you know, what can you 466 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,159 Speaker 1: do for me? It's all about quesion with methamphetamine or 467 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 1: heroine or anyone, And it's just they're worried about their 468 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,879 Speaker 1: next high and more than they're worried about helping people, 469 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 1: you know. So that's part was very aggravating. I just 470 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 1: wish I could have found that person that knows what happened, 471 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 1: because there is somebody. I'm sure I know there is, 472 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:29,920 Speaker 1: But somebody, somebody's gonna get arrested, they're gonna find they're 473 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,640 Speaker 1: gonna say, listen, I'm facing this. This is what I got, 474 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,640 Speaker 1: and this is and that leads gonna lead us to her. 475 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 1: I really believe that was there actually a particular person 476 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 1: that you couldn't find or you couldn't ever make contact 477 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:46,159 Speaker 1: with No, not really every name that I got from 478 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,479 Speaker 1: that informant at the jail. He gave me several names. 479 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:54,160 Speaker 1: Every name that either I couldn't find that person. Well, 480 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,119 Speaker 1: I did find a lot of more incarcerated, so I 481 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,399 Speaker 1: interviewed him at the jail, interview one guy actually even 482 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,680 Speaker 1: using court. He was actually going to a state court 483 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 1: on a probation violation. I found him in court and 484 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 1: I interviewed him. That was another waste of time. I've 485 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:11,119 Speaker 1: had people come into the police department and tell me 486 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,159 Speaker 1: they have information on Tiffany, and I would take him 487 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:15,920 Speaker 1: in the interview room, set up the whole interview room 488 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 1: and it would be the same. Well, I heard that 489 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 1: this happened, and I heard that this happened, no direct evidence, none. 490 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:31,119 Speaker 1: I interviewed probably eight to ten, either drug dealers or 491 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 1: drug users. And I really thought that informed from the 492 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 1: jail was going to be a great lead, but it 493 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 1: turned out it really wasn't. But the drug world, I 494 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:41,959 Speaker 1: worked at d e A for a little while as 495 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 1: a test force guy, so I know how these people think, 496 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 1: so right, So I know Tiffany was involved in the 497 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,680 Speaker 1: drug world obviously, and with her boyfriend Ashley and everything 498 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 1: like that. Besides all that, who do you think Tiffany was? 499 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:58,720 Speaker 1: Did you feel like you started to know her? There's 500 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 1: articles about her, there's not a lot of specifics on 501 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 1: who she kind of actually was. Well, just talking to 502 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 1: Lisa and just I'm looking at Tiffany the Facebook page 503 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 1: for Tiffany, you know, just before she got hooked on 504 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:12,000 Speaker 1: and you could tell that she was a great mom. 505 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 1: You look at her pictures before she got involved in drugs. 506 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,560 Speaker 1: What a beautiful young girl. And she got involved in 507 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 1: drugs and it just ran her life. And you know, 508 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 1: her daughter was not involved because the drugs were more involved. 509 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 1: And but if you look at her early before she 510 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 1: got involved, I mean, I did a little background on 511 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 1: her and just I mean I went back to look 512 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 1: at her high school pictures and stuff, and you know, 513 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: looking at what she was involving and when she was 514 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 1: younger before she got hooked on drugs and what I mean, 515 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 1: what a different person. Obviously a great mom until she 516 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 1: got hooked in the dope world. So the whole things 517 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 1: as a shame. What was your relationship with Lisa, Like 518 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 1: she spoke highly of you, you and Johnny both. She's 519 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 1: such a great lady. I mean I really would. Like 520 00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 1: I said, I wish I could have done more, But 521 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:00,040 Speaker 1: in my relationship with her was very good. I I 522 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 1: try to keep her updated. She would call me and 523 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 1: I wouldn't just you know, ignore her phone calls. If 524 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 1: I could get back to her right away, I would. 525 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 1: If not, I would get back to as soon as 526 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 1: I could. I try to keep her updated. I mean 527 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:14,360 Speaker 1: I felt for I just like I said, I wouldn't 528 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 1: looked at Tiffany's life before the drugs took over, and 529 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 1: I just feel for his mother. You know, are you 530 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 1: apparent yourself? I am. I have a daughter. My daughter 531 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 1: is young, but still I could see what the world 532 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 1: of drugs does, not only females, but males too, obviously, 533 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,560 Speaker 1: but I think females in a different way, just because 534 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 1: they can do other things to get drugs, which is, 535 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 1: you know what you like, prostitution and stuff like. I 536 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,239 Speaker 1: don't know if Tiffany was ever involved in that, but 537 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 1: I've seen it so working in the narcotics, right, yeah, 538 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 1: you see especially what influence of drugs can do. You 539 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 1: don't do anything to get that high. So yeah, Lisa 540 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 1: is great. It was great to work with her and 541 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 1: talk to her and she seems very involved. I've worked 542 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 1: a lot of cases, but she was very involved. I 543 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 1: think it helped her to be involved. And I think 544 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 1: especially john Johnny is really close at least I'm not 545 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 1: as closest as Thick the Muller is, but just I 546 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 1: think that personal relationship you get had with especially Johnny, 547 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,720 Speaker 1: but with me too, helped her because she knows she 548 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 1: can call either of us. Back then and even now, 549 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 1: if she called me, I would tell her if I 550 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 1: heard anything. But you know, I'm out of the game, really, 551 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 1: so I want to find I want Leasta to find 552 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 1: out what happened, and I want to find out what happened. 553 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 1: I want to know what the heck happened at night 554 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 1: because it's like she vanished in the thin air, which 555 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 1: we know is doesn't happen. So somebody knows something. And 556 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 1: I don't think Ashley is gonna help us. He's an arrogant, 557 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 1: you know, he thinks he's I don't know if narcissist 558 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 1: is the right word, but he's who knows what, he's 559 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 1: sociopath or something. But he he's cold and if it 560 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 1: doesn't help him, he's not gonna say nothing. Do you 561 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 1: think enough is being done to find at what happened 562 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 1: to Tiffany. I think the fact that the d A's 563 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 1: Office cold case unit has they have a lot more 564 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 1: time on their hands. They have more time to just 565 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 1: focus on it. Granted they get other cases and there's 566 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:14,120 Speaker 1: cold case homicides, but I think that the d A's 567 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,080 Speaker 1: Office having the case and being maybe I don't off 568 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:18,959 Speaker 1: the butt there the primary on it, but just the 569 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,760 Speaker 1: fact that they have the case over there, and they've 570 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:26,080 Speaker 1: got seasons retired detectives over there that will help. They'll 571 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 1: look at it. And John Dawes was the cold case 572 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,560 Speaker 1: director over there. He was a great homicide detective at 573 00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 1: cop Police Department. So if anybody can come up with leads, 574 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:36,600 Speaker 1: he can. He's just he's really don't tell John I 575 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 1: said this, but he's really good detective. Do you still 576 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,240 Speaker 1: talk to John about the case? I do. In fact, 577 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 1: I'm I'm technically still assigned to that unit since I retired. 578 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 1: I can still go over there just having a timestin. 579 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 1: I'm probably going to go. Yeah, I'm probably gonna go 580 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 1: back over there after the after Christmas and work a 581 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 1: couple of days, three or four hours a day, and 582 00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:58,280 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about if I get over there, I can 583 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 1: just everybody can work on some stuff. I'll just grab 584 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 1: Tiffany's files and I'll read them, reread them again, all 585 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 1: the supplementals, and maybe I can find a name that 586 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 1: nobody found. You know, I can focus on just one thing, 587 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:14,320 Speaker 1: which will Back when I had her case, I was 588 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:19,000 Speaker 1: focused on twenty other cases too, you know. So that's 589 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 1: my plan, hopefully after the first of the year, is 590 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 1: to go over there. And I'm still assigned there technically, 591 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 1: I mean i still have my passed to get in 592 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 1: the building and I'm still assigned to the cold case unit. 593 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 1: So after the first year, I'm going to go over there. 594 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 1: There's a couple of homicides I'm interested in working that 595 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 1: our ours from Maryetta plus Jeffany's case, so maybe I 596 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,840 Speaker 1: can come up with something. I'll let Thesa know that 597 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,479 Speaker 1: i'm gonna want to go over there. I'll just I'm 598 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 1: gonna go over here. I'm gonna take a look and 599 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 1: I look at her case, so I know she'll be 600 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:49,920 Speaker 1: happy about that. Yeah, So that's my plan. I wish 601 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:53,040 Speaker 1: we could find out what happened now solving it. Who knows, 602 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 1: we might not solve it but we need a location 603 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 1: where she is so we can give the family closure 604 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,080 Speaker 1: now after these many years. Is whether we can find 605 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:04,120 Speaker 1: evidence wherever we find Tiffany, I don't know. But if 606 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 1: we can just find something to let Lisa no listen, 607 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:10,000 Speaker 1: here's something you can use and you can have some closure, 608 00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:12,920 Speaker 1: that'd be important to me. Whether we can charge anybody 609 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 1: or not, that'd be great. But if we can get 610 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,040 Speaker 1: lesa some closure, that'd be the most important thing in 611 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:20,840 Speaker 1: my opinion. If we can charge somebody, that'd be fine too. 612 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:24,719 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, guys. Swarn is going on hiatus for 613 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 1: a few months for the holidays and while our team 614 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:29,920 Speaker 1: prepares for you a v live Atlanta Monster and Up 615 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,239 Speaker 1: and Vanished season two. Stay tuned on our feed for 616 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:50,320 Speaker 1: more details you. Sworn is produced by Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta. 617 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:54,880 Speaker 1: Story and production by Payne Lindsay, Mason Lindsay and Meredith 618 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:59,880 Speaker 1: Steadman and myself Philip Holloway executive producers Donald Albright and 619 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,839 Speaker 1: Haye Lindsay. And if you have it yet, please check 620 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:05,719 Speaker 1: out our sister podcast, Up and Vanished that follows the 621 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:09,279 Speaker 1: investigation into the disappearance of Georgia High school teacher and 622 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,919 Speaker 1: beauty Queen Tara Grinstead Up and Vantaged is available now 623 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,960 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts. Sworn is mixed and mastered by Resonate Recordings. 624 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 1: If you're in the market for podcast production, go to 625 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:23,240 Speaker 1: Resonate Recordings dot com to get your first episode produced 626 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,600 Speaker 1: for free. If you haven't already, please head over to 627 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:30,600 Speaker 1: iTunes now to subscribe, rate, and review Sworn, and make 628 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 1: sure you check us out online at sworn podcast dot 629 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 1: com and follow us on social media at Sworn podcast 630 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,600 Speaker 1: on Twitter and Instagram, and you can follow me your host, 631 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:44,280 Speaker 1: Philip Holloway at phil holloway e s Q on Twitter. 632 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,759 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. This is Philip Halloway and I'll see 633 00:35:47,760 --> 00:36:07,680 Speaker 1: you next time on Sworn Steep Washing. I see blood 634 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:14,840 Speaker 1: in the water, Jammy, Jammy, Blood in the water.