1 00:00:02,120 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: Zone Media. 2 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 2: Hello, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, and good night. 3 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 2: I'm Adressage and I run the YouTube channel Andrewism. But 4 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 2: this is not Andrewism. This is it could happen here 5 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:22,919 Speaker 2: today with Garrison yet again, and we are tackling really 6 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 2: the genesis of this podcast everyone's favorite subject, collapse. 7 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 3: Oh wow, yeah, you know, just a. 8 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:38,559 Speaker 2: Light topic for your morning or commute. I mean, if 9 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 2: it's twenty twenty four and you don't know what collapse 10 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 2: is allowed me to illuminate. 11 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:47,560 Speaker 3: Also, why are you listening to this podcast? It is 12 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:49,480 Speaker 3: ostensibly about collapse. 13 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 2: Indeed, in essence, collapse is the significant loss of an 14 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 2: established level of complexity towards a much simpler state. It 15 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:02,279 Speaker 2: can occur differently with him areas, orderly or chaotically, and 16 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:05,479 Speaker 2: be willing or unwilling. It does not necessarily imply human 17 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 2: extinction or a singular global event, although the longer the 18 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 2: duration the mod resembles a decline instead of a collapse. 19 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 2: So collapse is really a lot of things happen all 20 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 2: of once. People typically side. You know, you're talking about 21 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:24,039 Speaker 2: the climate, talking about resources and the decline of resources, 22 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 2: talking about vast extinction, talking about societal unrest and break 23 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 2: down and the inequality and truly pick your poison. Rather, 24 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:38,639 Speaker 2: we're talking about, you know, the f increase in global 25 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 2: energy demands, to graddingly slow transition to renewables, the destabilization 26 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 2: of our food and water systems. There's no one cause, 27 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 2: but several compounding pressures, as Pablo Serlophine and Raphael Steven's 28 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 2: aptly summarize. To maintain itself and avoid financial disorder and 29 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 2: social unrest, I'll industr your cap with civilization is forced 30 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 2: to accelerate, to become more complex and to consume ever 31 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 2: more energy. Its dazline expansion has been nurtured by the 32 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 2: exceptional availability though this will not last long of fossil 33 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 2: fuels that are very energy efficient, coupled with their growth 34 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 2: economy and highly unstable levels of debt. But the growth 35 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:24,359 Speaker 2: of our industrial civilization today, constrained by geophysical economic limits, 36 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 2: has reached a phase of decreasing returns. Technology, which has 37 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 2: long sail to push these limits back, is less and 38 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 2: less able to ensure this acceleration, and locks in this 39 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 2: unsustainable trajectory by preventing the development of new alternatives. Sounds familiar. 40 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 2: At the same time, the sciences of complexity, discovering that 41 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:49,360 Speaker 2: beyond certain thresholds, complex systems, including economies and ecosystems, suddenly 42 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 2: switched to new and unpredictable states of equilibrium and may 43 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 2: even collapse. We are more and more aware that we 44 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 2: have crossed certain boundaries that guarantee the stability of our 45 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 2: living conditions as a society and as a species. The 46 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 2: global climate system and many of the planet's ecosystems and 47 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 2: major biochemical cycles have left the zone of stability that 48 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 2: people familiar with herald in a time of sudden, large 49 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 2: scale disruptions which internally stabilized industrial societies, the rest of 50 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 2: humankind and even other species. 51 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 3: Yes, I agree. 52 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:28,800 Speaker 2: In terms of the hows of collapse, you know, it 53 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 2: might be slow, or it might be quick, It might 54 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:33,640 Speaker 2: be happening now already, or maybe just really kicking off 55 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 2: seriously in their future. Today we'll really be talking about 56 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 2: the sort of different ways of conceptualizing collapse, different frame 57 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 2: devices we can use, and addressing the variety of responses 58 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 2: that people have to collapse in a future episode I 59 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 2: want to take a look at. I suppose a more 60 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 2: this could be like the pessimistic episode in a sense 61 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 2: and the next one will be a bit more. You know, 62 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 2: how not to spiral into despair? 63 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 3: So yeah, how do I have a good understanding of 64 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 3: the reality of our crumbling systems, but not just be 65 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:17,479 Speaker 3: a doomer who stays inside and scrolls all the time. 66 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 3: It is just depressed. 67 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 2: Well, but thankfully you have more options than just being 68 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 2: a duma. And we're going to get into all of 69 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:27,279 Speaker 2: those responses very soon. There are quite a few interesting ones. 70 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:28,040 Speaker 3: Alrighty. 71 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:30,479 Speaker 2: First of all, we need to talk about some different 72 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 2: ways of conceptualizing collapse. For example, we have Dmitry Orlovs 73 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 2: five stages, which is like a roller coaster of chaos, 74 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:42,919 Speaker 2: which each stage more intense than the last. First, we 75 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 2: have stage one financial collapse. Everyone losing faith in business 76 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 2: as usual, financial institutions going belly up, savings vanish, financial 77 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:56,360 Speaker 2: free fall, say goodbye to your savings, account, loans, pensions, 78 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:00,159 Speaker 2: basically what went down in Argentina. Back into the and 79 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 2: one sounds familiar. 80 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, Next. 81 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 2: We have commercial collapse. Now it's not just about money, 82 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 2: it's about losing faith in the market shall provide commodities 83 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 2: and up being hoarded. Shopping centers are closing for business 84 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 2: and we might even bring back barter, and then boom, 85 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 2: we have the next stage, political collapse. Trust in the 86 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 2: government will take care of you crumbles. Governments try to 87 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:33,719 Speaker 2: maintain oiler with curfews and martial law, but local corruption 88 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 2: takes over services, the roads un maintained, the rubbish piling 89 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 2: up all of actually makes a really bold claim here, 90 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 2: and that is that the US might be on the 91 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:51,839 Speaker 2: track of these like stages. Like I know, I know, 92 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 2: that sounds like a really like a radical claim to make. 93 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 3: I feel like everyone listening to this has a decent 94 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 3: understanding that, like, these things aren't just switches that are 95 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 3: either on or off. This is like a sliding scale, 96 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 3: and the US is a decent ways on this scale already. 97 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 3: I mean, that's that's what the first five episodes of 98 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 3: the second season of this show was really all about, 99 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 3: specifically in terms of the climate and how it's not 100 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 3: like everything all falls apart at once. It's that these 101 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 3: systems that we've grown to rely on will slowly crumble 102 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:31,839 Speaker 3: away until they've become basically nothing, or they've just become 103 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:34,720 Speaker 3: like corporate puppets, or they've just become like like they're 104 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 3: not actually real anymore in any kind of impactful way. 105 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 3: And I mean we saw a little bit of this 106 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 3: during COVID. How many systems that we relied on just 107 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 3: weren't really around anymore, or weren't we're not actually reliable. 108 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 3: And you see this whenever, like whenever there's a massive 109 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:53,840 Speaker 3: amount of wildfires that takes over a whole region and 110 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 3: it displaces hundreds of thousands of people. Usually the response 111 00:06:58,000 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 3: to that is not the government's going to come in 112 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 3: and say everybody, it's a whole bunch of really poor 113 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 3: anarchists set up a series of tents to give people 114 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 3: food and to get people organized, to find places to sleep, 115 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 3: and like that's the actual response to these crumbling institutions. 116 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 3: It's not just like you know, fallout New Vegas, We're 117 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 3: living in the apocalypse immediately. It's a lot more fuzzy. 118 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And in a sense, I kind of get 119 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 2: people who wish it was a bit more straightforward. And sure, 120 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 2: you know, because if it's like if it was like 121 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 2: a major event, right like if it was an alien 122 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 2: invasion that just happened, I think it's a lot easier 123 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 2: for people to conceptionize something like that and respond to it. 124 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 2: And I just mobilize, all your efforts and all your 125 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 2: focus is on solved in this issue, because it's right 126 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 2: in front of your face. We're talking about like geological 127 00:07:56,080 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 2: time skills and multiple decades of you know, slowly break down, 128 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 2: and you know, I have all these election cycles, and 129 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 2: you have all these tipping points the scientists are telling 130 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 2: you about, and then you know, someday eventually it's raining 131 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 2: during the dry season and dry during the rainy season, 132 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 2: and there's no snow in January, and all that jazz onward. 133 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 2: The social collapse. This is where, according to all of 134 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 2: faith in your people will take care of you, disintegrate, 135 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 2: civil wars brew the population becomes a thing, clans take 136 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 2: over like a post apocalyptic drama unfolded. And then and 137 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 2: then the grand finale is cultural collapse, which is a 138 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 2: loss of faith in the goodness of humanity. And as 139 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 2: a result of that loss of faith, kindness, generosity, empathy 140 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 2: all falls out the window. I completely disagree I think 141 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 2: with loves solution here. I think that these types of 142 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 2: crisis kind often bring out the best in people. Of course, 143 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:09,080 Speaker 2: we also do see the worst in people. But I 144 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 2: don't think it'll ever reach a point where the bad 145 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:19,320 Speaker 2: of people's behavior so vastly outweighs the good to the 146 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 2: point where people just completely lose faith in our capacity 147 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 2: for mutual aid and that kind of thing. There is, 148 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 2: of course, a bonus stage that all are throughs in, 149 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 2: which is ecological collapse, where reboot in society in an 150 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 2: exhausted environment. It's like good luck with that, you know, 151 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 2: it's very difficult to do. It becomes a sort of 152 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 2: a well that we end up trapped in. So that's 153 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 2: one way of understanding collapse. And there's also C. A. S. 154 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 2: Halling's four phase model of ecological change, and according to him, 155 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 2: all systems go through cycles of four faces. A phase 156 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 2: of growth where the system accumulates matter and energy, phase 157 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 2: of conservation where the system becomes more and more interconnected, 158 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:07,200 Speaker 2: rigid and therefore vulnerable. A phase of collapse or loosening, 159 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:10,319 Speaker 2: and then a phase of rapid reorganization lead into another 160 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 2: phase of growth in often very different conditions. This is 161 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 2: more of a I suppose optimistic I mean I read 162 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:24,440 Speaker 2: it as kind of optimistic because it recognizes that, you know, 163 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 2: something like things break down and that's it. Like even 164 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 2: in death, there's like a life, and there's like a rebooth, 165 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 2: and then there's of course the conditions that rebooth will 166 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 2: be different. But it's not like things completely come to 167 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 2: an end. It's just that the conditions that growth and 168 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 2: healing might be kickstarted with would be very different from 169 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 2: the ones that with the conditions that were there originally. 170 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 2: Another author's views on the subject, a guy named John 171 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 2: Michael Greer One said that quote. The difference between my 172 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 2: view and that of many others in the collapse field, 173 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:07,680 Speaker 2: it's a lot of them assume that the first wave 174 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:10,560 Speaker 2: of crisis will be followed by total collapse, and I 175 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 2: argue that it'll be followed by muddying through and partial recovery, 176 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 2: then by renewed crisis and so on. Thus, I don't 177 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 2: think it's actually that useful to have a single metric 178 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 2: for what counters collapse, because collapse is a process, not 179 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 2: an event. The collapse of industrial civilization has been underway 180 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 2: for quite some time now and will still be a 181 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 2: going concern for longer than any of us will be alive. 182 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 2: And then there's David Krowitz's sort of choose your own 183 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 2: adventure style collapse, where we have sort of three options 184 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 2: that we could go down there's one of linear decline, 185 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 2: there's one of oscillating decline, and there's one of systemic collapse. 186 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 2: First step, we have linear decline, which is optimistic in 187 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 2: a sense. It's assuming everything will respond proportionally to its causes. So, 188 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 2: for instance, if oil consumption goes down, GDP follows suit. 189 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 2: It's a very gradual and controlled decline, which gives us 190 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 2: time to transition to renewable energy and to change our ways. 191 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:15,080 Speaker 2: It's kind of a dream scenario for some dee growth enthusiasts, 192 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 2: So some of those who champion a transition to a 193 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 2: greener future, we kind of want it to be a 194 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:23,080 Speaker 2: slow collapse, not a rapid collapse, because it gives us 195 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:28,719 Speaker 2: time to respond and adjust accordingly. Of course, the other 196 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 2: side of that, the catch is that when it is 197 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:37,199 Speaker 2: that slow, it also sort of gives an excuse for inaction, 198 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 2: an excuse for delay and putting off and procrastinates in 199 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 2: on the changes that are necessary. A more realistic scenario, 200 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 2: according to to Coross, oscillating decline, where you have economic 201 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 2: activity bounce in between peaks of recovery and recession, but 202 00:12:56,480 --> 00:13:02,319 Speaker 2: with an overall downward trend. It's almost like an oil 203 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 2: priced roller coaster where the higher prices lead to recession, 204 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 2: then a dipping prices sparks bit of growth. Both each 205 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:12,960 Speaker 2: cycle the system loses a bit more of its mojo 206 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 2: for lack of a better word, The debts the pile up, 207 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:19,960 Speaker 2: the investment possibilities dwindle, and it's kind of like the 208 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 2: catabolic collapse idea that John Michael Career came up with. 209 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 2: It's not too fast and so innocence. It still gives 210 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 2: society some room to adapt. And the last model that 211 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 2: Chris has is the systemic collapse model, which is our 212 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 2: civilization as a super complex system with all these intertwined 213 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 2: feedback loops and so by crossing these invisible change over 214 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 2: points and deal with small disruptions can end up leading 215 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 2: to unpredictable changes. It's like a roller coaster without a 216 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 2: clear track, nonlinear, pumulative and potentially brutal. You know, it's 217 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 2: like no kind of safety approval was passed on this 218 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 2: roller coast to whatsoever, a death trap and there's no 219 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 2: telling where the cart will vy. Of course, really the 220 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 2: how of collapse depends on who you ask, But with 221 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 2: all these models, they do seem to be a couple 222 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 2: of clear points best articulated again by Savine and Stevens. One, 223 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 2: the physical growth of our societies will come to a 224 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 2: halt in the near future. Two we have irreversibly damaged 225 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 2: the entire system, at least on the geological scale of 226 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 2: human beings. Three we are moving towards a very unstable, 227 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 2: non linear future where major disruptions will be the norm. 228 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 2: And four we're now potentially subject to global systemic collapses. 229 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 2: Prospects look bleak to me. They look extra bleak when 230 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 2: you consider that some people are still stuck on the 231 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 2: is climate change real ha ha ha global warming and 232 00:14:55,760 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 2: yet it's cold ha ha ha level of discourse. But 233 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 2: for those who are made away of the issues, I've 234 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 2: noticed people adopt a range of responses. I think one 235 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 2: of the first responses that I see to collapse is slumber. Right. 236 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 2: They catch a whiff of what's going on and decide 237 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 2: to just turn over and go back to sleep. To 238 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 2: purposefully embrace ignorance, disregard new information, and shun any understanding 239 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 2: of what's going on. Perhaps you know their garden, their 240 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 2: fragile sanity, which is understandable, but people sleep in or 241 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 2: we need to face these issues is a disaster waiting 242 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 2: to happen. These issues are not going anywhere, and we 243 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 2: really need people to have the courage and the boldness 244 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 2: to face them seat of turn and over and going 245 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 2: back to sleep. Similarly to that response, we have to 246 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 2: denial response, where people face with this reality, reject it 247 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 2: consciously and construct their own or they search for information 248 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 2: that comforts them rather than exposes them to the truth. 249 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 2: They construct a media bubble that shields them, or a 250 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 2: social circle that could protect them and reaffirm their core beliefs. 251 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 2: Everyone is capable of denying reality, but it's become quite 252 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 2: prevalent in the age of technology, where we can easily 253 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 2: shut out any truths that make us uncomfortable. And this apathy, 254 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 2: you know, like slumber and denial. People respond with apathy 255 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 2: to protect themselves in some way. After all, if nothing 256 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:44,000 Speaker 2: really matters, there's no need to try, no need to think, 257 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 2: no need to bother Jesus, just disconnect as humans. I 258 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 2: think we have a really tough time responding to non 259 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 2: immediate threats. It's been said, as I said earlier, that 260 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 2: no climate change isn't happening too quick, it's happening too slowly. 261 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 2: It's not ob us enough. Because it's not obviously enough, 262 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,680 Speaker 2: it's very easy for this next response to be made manifest, 263 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 2: and it's preoccupation. Of course, this is more of a 264 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 2: fault of the system. But people these days are all busy. 265 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 2: You know that everyone can afford to invest and explore 266 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 2: and understand the world's problems, even if the threat is 267 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 2: so existential that their office busy work or ratail servitude 268 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:26,359 Speaker 2: would ultimately amount to nothing. But I'm not talking about 269 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 2: those people when I talk about preoccupation. I'm talking about 270 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 2: the people who respond to the issues of the world 271 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:35,200 Speaker 2: by purposefully distracting themselves with busy work, constructing a convenient 272 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 2: excuse to not challenge the structures that they are under 273 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:41,880 Speaker 2: or maintained, like running away for the predicaments of collapse. 274 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:46,119 Speaker 2: But the predicaments of collapse hatches up to all of 275 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:50,200 Speaker 2: us sooner or later. And on the flip side of 276 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:52,440 Speaker 2: the people who busy themselves with busy work are the 277 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 2: people who dive into mind less consumeris are which is 278 00:17:56,280 --> 00:18:00,399 Speaker 2: coupled with apathy to some extent. If nothing matters, everything's 279 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 2: falling apart, you might as well just indulge, consume, distract 280 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 2: yourself with games, music, party and drugs and drinking. It's 281 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:12,399 Speaker 2: like slumber, except you're aware of the reality and just 282 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,480 Speaker 2: plug in your ears to just dance. But at least 283 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 2: for those that plug their ears, they don't face what 284 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:28,879 Speaker 2: I've called overwhelment. Some people respond by trying to wrap 285 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:32,439 Speaker 2: their minds around the depth and complexity of collapse to 286 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 2: the point of obsession and just kind of end up 287 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 2: losing their minds altogether. I don't think there is any 288 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:44,399 Speaker 2: human mind that can completely consume and comprehend every minute 289 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:46,959 Speaker 2: problem we face. I think that's why we are social species, 290 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:53,399 Speaker 2: because we can kind of distribute that understanding of all 291 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 2: the various problems so that no one person has to 292 00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:01,399 Speaker 2: handle all of it. We really are going to need 293 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 2: to come together to understand collapse, because as individuals, to 294 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 2: deal with something to a complex, abstract, far flung and frightening, 295 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:17,159 Speaker 2: it's it's frankly, subjecting yourself to that is almost a 296 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 2: form of self torture or self flagellation. And what we 297 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 2: need is the opposite pity of people building each other 298 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 2: up and healing our communities and coming together so we 299 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 2: could solve this crisis. Of course, there is such a 300 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:40,679 Speaker 2: thing as being too caught up in that sort of 301 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:46,479 Speaker 2: hope and a trap that a lot of people fall 302 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 2: naturally into because in a sense we are biologically predisposed 303 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 2: towards optimism. We tend to hold on to hope in 304 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 2: some future outcome they'll just work out, you know. And 305 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:02,120 Speaker 2: it's sort of a blind hope because it can't adjust 306 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:05,879 Speaker 2: to the ever shift in reality. It strips us of 307 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:09,159 Speaker 2: our ability to see clearly and to take realistic and 308 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 2: necessary action. We give up our agency and leave things 309 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:16,399 Speaker 2: in the hands of the leaders and the experts. We 310 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 2: stay passive. We waste time, precious time that we spent 311 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:23,879 Speaker 2: on real harm reduction, just going with the flow. We 312 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:26,920 Speaker 2: prevent the necessary conversations with the blind hope when we 313 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 2: fixate so much and whether we can fix it or 314 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 2: how we can fix it, without considering what we need 315 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 2: to do. If we can't fix it, you know what happens? 316 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 2: Then blind hope manifests in a few different forms. But 317 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:46,879 Speaker 2: I think whatever format comes into it ultimately and ultimately 318 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 2: and inevitably leads to disappointment. Waiting forever for a future 319 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 2: that won't come, that exists solely in one's mind, irrespective 320 00:20:54,960 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 2: of reality. It's quite frankly a form of denial. It 321 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 2: takes a bit of a journey to move towards a 322 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 2: greater level of emotional maturity, to handle the tough conversations 323 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:13,439 Speaker 2: and let go of the false hopes, like the idea 324 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:16,159 Speaker 2: that will somehow reverse all the damage our plant has 325 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 2: been dealt with scot free. But once we have done that, 326 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:24,439 Speaker 2: and once we have strengthened or resolve and strengthen our 327 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 2: ability to process and to engage with the reality of 328 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 2: what's happening, we can take action with knowledge that no, 329 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:36,160 Speaker 2: our leader is not going to do anything substantially enough, 330 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 2: and no, this moves far beyond reform. It really is 331 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 2: a hard pill to swallow, but if you can take it, 332 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 2: you'll be better off to resist. We really don't need 333 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,720 Speaker 2: blind hope and resistance. I think hope is important. I'm 334 00:21:54,720 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 2: distinguishing it from hope blind hope. However, distraction and sort 335 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:05,640 Speaker 2: of connected to the blind hope conversation are the people 336 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:11,719 Speaker 2: who respond to this crisis with the obsession with individual change, 337 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 2: people who believe with a few tweaks here and there 338 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 2: that we can continue or perpetual growth. We just have 339 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 2: to switch to veganism or recycle or cockpool every once 340 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 2: in a while, and that that individual level action on 341 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:32,640 Speaker 2: a large enough scale would resolve the crisis. They place 342 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:36,199 Speaker 2: a lot of stock and blame in individuals entirely, and 343 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:42,399 Speaker 2: they don't engage with the wider structures of society. A 344 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 2: lot of liberals, of course, fall into this camp. And 345 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:52,399 Speaker 2: speaking of liberals, we see a very pernicious trend of 346 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 2: progress worship as another response to collapse. The author Dennis 347 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 2: Meadows actually points out a curious trend over the past 348 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 2: four decades. There's a constant shift in justifying why we 349 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 2: shouldn't change our behavior. Back in the seventies, critics were saying, 350 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 2: no limits. You know, anyone who thinks they're limits, they 351 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:15,159 Speaker 2: just don't get it. The eighties they're saying, oh, actually 352 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,879 Speaker 2: there are limits, but they are very far away. We 353 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 2: have nothing to worry about, nothing to lose sleep over. 354 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 2: And then inta nineties, the limits are no longer at are, 355 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,880 Speaker 2: no longer is distant. And then the supporters of growth 356 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 2: they chiming with, oh, well, you know the limits are close, 357 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 2: but no worries. You know, the markets and technology will 358 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 2: swoop in and fix everything. And then you reach into 359 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,679 Speaker 2: two thousands and it becomes clear that the tech and 360 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:44,119 Speaker 2: the markets might not cut it, and then the narrative 361 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 2: spins again. Regardless of whether not the markets or tech 362 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 2: and cut it, we still need to push for growth 363 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:51,879 Speaker 2: because that's the goal and ticket to the resources we 364 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,640 Speaker 2: need to tackle our of problems. It's basically a game 365 00:23:55,680 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 2: of justification hopscotch. It's almost a cult of progress that 366 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 2: any and all growth is good. That don't matter the 367 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 2: consequences of on our finite earth. We can just expand 368 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 2: and expand eternally. A lot of the responses I get 369 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,639 Speaker 2: to my discussions of the growth or post growth or whatever, 370 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:19,440 Speaker 2: it's like, yeah, but you can't do that because then 371 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:23,920 Speaker 2: the GP you wouldn't grow and wouldn't elevate people's sounds 372 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:27,920 Speaker 2: of living. And you know, it's not fair that global. 373 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 3: Wait Andrew, are you a Malthusian? 374 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 2: Nothing of the sort, Nothing of the sort. But I 375 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,160 Speaker 2: think that we should not be fallen into this shop 376 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 2: of being like, oh, well, you know, it's not fair 377 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:46,480 Speaker 2: that these rich countries they get to reach that level 378 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:48,480 Speaker 2: of development, and then we have to like and then 379 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 2: what we're going to step in and stop other countries 380 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 2: from doing so when it's not that I mean, I'm 381 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 2: speaking from a not rich country. What I'm saying is 382 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 2: that the what I say to the equal is that 383 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,680 Speaker 2: the path of development of these rich countries took it's 384 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:05,399 Speaker 2: not sustainable. It is literally dooming us all. Yes, the 385 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 2: entire population cannot strive for the level of consumption that 386 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 2: Americans strive for. Do I think the development days take place, absolutely, 387 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 2: but not on the trajectory, not following in the footsteps 388 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 2: of these rich countries, this Global North and it's legacy 389 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:32,440 Speaker 2: of decimating the world. You know, places like India, place 390 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 2: like the Caribbean, places in Africa. You know, we do 391 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:42,439 Speaker 2: need to, you know, improve housing, and improve access to water, 392 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 2: and improve access to education, all these different things. But 393 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 2: chasing after this sort of careless economic growth narrative and 394 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 2: path is just going to accelerate all of our destruction. 395 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,159 Speaker 2: I agree with the need for reparations from global not 396 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:12,399 Speaker 2: to Global South, that will allow us to reach the 397 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:18,359 Speaker 2: level of a they could, to reach the quality of 398 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:23,159 Speaker 2: life that I think every human should have access to. 399 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:26,880 Speaker 2: But I don't think that that is the same thing 400 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 2: as saying that, oh, well, you know, every country should 401 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:37,880 Speaker 2: have their own equivalent of Britain and the US's Industrial Revolution, 402 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:44,879 Speaker 2: and who cares that that ship has sailed, that window 403 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:46,640 Speaker 2: of opportunity has passed. 404 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think going back to like your series 405 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:53,160 Speaker 3: of episodes on cults, when you're talking about the cult 406 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 3: of progress, I think that is that gets thrown on 407 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,120 Speaker 3: as like a very trendy term, but I think it 408 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 3: has a lot of truth in it for this specific reason. 409 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 3: In order to maintain the type of progress that is 410 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 3: necessary to sustain this at this current point, what seems 411 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:15,000 Speaker 3: to be a very unsustainable method of interacting with the planet. 412 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 3: You have to rely on growth as this thing that 413 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 3: you can't actually like predicts, You can't actually predict a 414 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 3: real endpoint for it. You have to only assume and 415 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 3: only hope that it will get there. It's this that's 416 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:37,160 Speaker 3: why there's this real sense of accelerationism throughout these whole industries, 417 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,480 Speaker 3: because people know that if we continue just doing this way, 418 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 3: the planet will not be functional, at least for us 419 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 3: in like a hundred years, probably you know in much 420 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,919 Speaker 3: less time as well. But the reason why they're all 421 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 3: continuing is that they have the people have it have 422 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 3: this idea in their heads that if we just keep 423 00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 3: accelerating if we keep going, we have to go fast, 424 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 3: sturn fast and faster, because we'll find something along the 425 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 3: way that will magically fix the problem. Well, if the 426 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 3: only way to fix the problem is to continue accelerating, 427 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,240 Speaker 3: and we'll find this thing that doesn't currently exist, but 428 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:18,120 Speaker 3: we'll find like this like supernatural device or discovery that 429 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,400 Speaker 3: allows us to kind of fix the little problem we've 430 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,200 Speaker 3: made for ourselves. And it is a very like religious 431 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,719 Speaker 3: belief that if if we just keep going, we'll like 432 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 3: get some like deep this, some like some like deep 433 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:31,720 Speaker 3: special insight. 434 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,919 Speaker 2: We've reached the point where people are literally looking to 435 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 2: the havens like almost in a supernatural sense, yeah, to 436 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 2: find a sution. They're like, oh, well, we'll just be 437 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 2: able to keep on going because asteroid mining Da da 438 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 2: da da will just go on settle in other planets 439 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 2: and I'll continue our expansion endlessly and we could just 440 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 2: keep on going. 441 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 3: Or you also see this with people like developing AI. 442 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 3: They're like, if we if we get into AI smart enough, 443 00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 3: it'll be able to tell us how to fix our problem. 444 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 3: And it is a deeply spiritual drive. It is a 445 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:04,640 Speaker 3: very cultish drive, like we have to keep going even 446 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 3: though we are currently dooming ourselves by continuing. We have 447 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 3: to continue because that's the only way that we'll get 448 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 3: this out of this problem. It's like we can, we can, 449 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 3: we can only dig deeper, Like we've gone so far 450 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:20,160 Speaker 3: into the center of the earth that it's faster. Yeah, 451 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 3: it's faster to dig out the other way than actually 452 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 3: try to turn around and fill the hole again. It 453 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 3: is a very cultish spiritual drive to like continue this, 454 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 3: to continue and like explicitly like accelerate development because we've 455 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 3: realized we've done something that's uh from our current point 456 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 3: of view, almost irreparable. But there's this there is this 457 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 3: belief that if we owe that the only way to 458 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 3: fix it is is if we keep going, then will 459 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 3: somehow stumble across the magical the magical thing that will 460 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 3: fix our problem. 461 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 2: I want to talk specifically about the sort of I mean, 462 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 2: I know there are other people in the world who 463 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 2: wars how there's response, in the Global South, who will 464 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 2: owls how there's response. But I see a lot of 465 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 2: Americans responding to my like degreth advocacy or whatever, saying, well, 466 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 2: what about the global cell you know, I mean, never mind, 467 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 2: I live in the Global South. What about the global cell. 468 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 2: And what really gets me about it is just how 469 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 2: it's almost like a way of comfort in themselves. 470 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 3: Sure, it's it's using the struggles of marginalize people to 471 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 3: not interrogate your own role in the continuing destruction and 472 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 3: like systemic oppression that produces this great economic and u 473 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 3: and like a difference in quality of life. 474 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 2: Because it's like you have to then you'll have to 475 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 2: confront the fact that maybe your lifestyle and the privilege, 476 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:03,320 Speaker 2: some of the lifestyle privileges you enjoyed really should not 477 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 2: be enjoyed by anyone ever, Like maybe that level of 478 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 2: the thing was never sustainable in the first place, and 479 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,840 Speaker 2: we could have done with lesson And I know it's 480 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 2: really I really hate having this kind of conversation on 481 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 2: the internet because I think it's very difficult to get 482 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 2: into the level of nuance it's necessary because then you know, 483 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:24,960 Speaker 2: people will say, oh, well, I'm from a week in 484 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,719 Speaker 2: class background from this and that I've also faced level deprivation. 485 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 2: I get all that, but then there are other things 486 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 2: where I'm like, you know, can we live in a 487 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 2: world where everyone has access to Amazon one day ship 488 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:44,480 Speaker 2: in two dayship in? You know, can we live in 489 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 2: a world where everyone owns a car, even if it's 490 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 2: an electric car. I think there are certain standards of 491 00:31:54,920 --> 00:32:00,280 Speaker 2: I guess lifestyle or milestones of lifestyle that we've come 492 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,320 Speaker 2: to accept that I think in retrospect we will look 493 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 2: back and say, Wow, that was an operation of human 494 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 2: history that we were even maintaining that sort of infrastructure, 495 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:16,640 Speaker 2: even maintaining that level of consumption. You know, I'm sure 496 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 2: a couple of generations online people will look back and 497 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 2: be like, wow, to tell me nearly every household had 498 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 2: a car, and that everybody was just on the roads 499 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,440 Speaker 2: driving all the time, and we built our cities or 500 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 2: infrastructure around vehicles. When we knew very early on, when 501 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 2: the oil companies knew very early on that eventually we 502 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 2: would run out, we just didn't care. I'm kind of 503 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 2: all over the place with this, But you were going 504 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 2: to say something. 505 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 3: Well, I was also going to mention like in these 506 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 3: in these sorts of discussions, it also can be often 507 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 3: overlooked that just because you live in the United States 508 00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 3: or in any other kind of big place, that doesn't 509 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 3: mean like it's that's not The United States isn't one place. 510 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 3: There is a difference between living in like a five 511 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 3: thousand dollars apartment in a downtown like city center, versus 512 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:15,720 Speaker 3: living on the outskirts of town in like of house 513 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 3: that's falling apart right or living on the street, or 514 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:23,360 Speaker 3: or living in the middle of Utah versus living on 515 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 3: the coast like there's or living in uh like a 516 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 3: montane like there's. There is such a large difference even 517 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 3: for people in the States, for like many many like 518 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:36,880 Speaker 3: not everyone is able to live in this like very 519 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:43,600 Speaker 3: are arguably very very unsustainable, very like hyper hyper modernity. 520 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,960 Speaker 3: Way there is there is, there's millions of people that 521 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 3: of course like, oh no, I'm not saying that against 522 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 3: your point. I'm saying, like this is this is also 523 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:54,600 Speaker 3: part of the problem, like we have we have tricked 524 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,240 Speaker 3: ourselves into thinking that if you if you live in 525 00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 3: the United States, that must mean you are like you 526 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:04,479 Speaker 3: who are one of the elite few. But there's millions 527 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:08,640 Speaker 3: of people who are living in like the like some 528 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:12,359 Speaker 3: of the most some of the harshest conditions in the world, 529 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,760 Speaker 3: even in the richest country in the world, like it is, anti. 530 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:20,360 Speaker 2: Growth is not coming to take from one's meager lifestyle. 531 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,720 Speaker 2: If one lives in those circumstances. You know, de growth 532 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,759 Speaker 2: is really coming after those on the other end of 533 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:28,280 Speaker 2: that spectrum of life style. 534 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:32,439 Speaker 3: No, if if any, it would be, and it would 535 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 3: be a greater equalizer between people living in countries. 536 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:39,520 Speaker 2: Elevation of your standard of living. 537 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,239 Speaker 3: Yes, as as as well as looking at you know, 538 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:45,239 Speaker 3: quote unquote like the Global South or quote unquote like 539 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:49,400 Speaker 3: third world countries, like there is there's this idea of 540 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 3: like I think we've had someone on the show to 541 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:55,080 Speaker 3: talk about this before, Joey, like the fourth World, Like 542 00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:57,239 Speaker 3: you're you are living in third world conditions but in 543 00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,799 Speaker 3: a first world country. And how all of these, all 544 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:04,360 Speaker 3: of these types of these all of these types of 545 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:08,319 Speaker 3: systemic inequality and differences and uh like cost of living, 546 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,680 Speaker 3: living conditions, they all they all come bined together in 547 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:15,480 Speaker 3: really Gaussian fuzzy ways, even if you live in the 548 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 3: United States, Canada, England, like Germany, wherever, and and and 549 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:26,319 Speaker 3: it produces this extremely extremely bizarre mishmash of of. 550 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:29,280 Speaker 2: Circumstances. 551 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 3: Of circumstances. Yeah, you can you can walk by someone 552 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 3: who's driving like a five hundred thousand dollars car. Meanwhile 553 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,360 Speaker 3: you are literally being forced to live on the street 554 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:41,800 Speaker 3: like that is that is and that is such a 555 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 3: bizarre dichotomy. 556 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:46,120 Speaker 2: The few times I've been to the US, seeing that 557 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:50,160 Speaker 2: dichot to me like in real is something else. I mean, 558 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,440 Speaker 2: of course there's an incoming equality, and there's vastest parties 559 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,240 Speaker 2: in wealth and turned out as well. You know, there 560 00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 2: are people who you know live on the streets and 561 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 2: they are people who you know go to yacht parties 562 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 2: every weekend. What I want people to recognize is the 563 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:10,799 Speaker 2: way that these elites get you to advocate against your 564 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:14,279 Speaker 2: own interests is through that sort of and connect you 565 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:18,279 Speaker 2: to their culture progress and get you invested in their 566 00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:21,680 Speaker 2: culture progress. Hook you in is through that sort of 567 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 2: temporarily embarrassed to millionaire mantra. They hook you in by saying, yeah, 568 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:29,560 Speaker 2: they're coming for our stuff. Eventually you'll get to my 569 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,799 Speaker 2: level too, and then you wouldn't want people to take 570 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:36,200 Speaker 2: your stuff away either, you know, like my tech development 571 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,640 Speaker 2: is going to rise or bring all of us up, 572 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 2: you know, and you shouldn't let these people stop you 573 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:48,360 Speaker 2: rather than no, well, obviously these RuSHA guys are going 574 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:51,080 Speaker 2: to get brought down a peg. But by bringing them 575 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,839 Speaker 2: down a peg, everybody will have a better quality of life. 576 00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:00,640 Speaker 2: But instead of recognizing that they deceive people with this 577 00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:07,280 Speaker 2: techno opim they bring people into this trap of capitalist 578 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:14,520 Speaker 2: realism that either you live in the deprivation of the 579 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:18,160 Speaker 2: worst of the worst of people's livelihoods and the capitalism, 580 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:20,480 Speaker 2: or you live in the excess are the best of 581 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:23,480 Speaker 2: the best of people's lives and the capitalism, And there's 582 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,800 Speaker 2: nothing beyond those two options. And so obviously the de 583 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:30,640 Speaker 2: growth people want you to be living in the former option, 584 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:35,160 Speaker 2: and you should oppose them because of that. Another response 585 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:36,439 Speaker 2: I see is that there are a lot of people 586 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:43,880 Speaker 2: who are just completely like have complete faith in our leaders, 587 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:46,680 Speaker 2: who believe that, you know, once we get just the 588 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:51,880 Speaker 2: right people in office, things will work out. The truth is, 589 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,440 Speaker 2: of course, the system corrupts even the best of intentions. 590 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,440 Speaker 2: Politicians are a class and to themselves, and their actions 591 00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:01,080 Speaker 2: reflect ultimately their own interests and the interests of their backers. 592 00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:04,600 Speaker 2: Nation states governments, rulers. Is their job. It's in their 593 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:08,800 Speaker 2: job description to maintain structures that ultimately harm humanity, and 594 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:10,920 Speaker 2: there's only so much they can do to affect the 595 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:16,080 Speaker 2: status cho placing our salvation in their hands. It's an 596 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:20,320 Speaker 2: exercise in futility. Invest in your future and the confines 597 00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:23,520 Speaker 2: of the electoralism is a waste of time, but it 598 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:27,080 Speaker 2: also demonstrates how effectively mass media and schooling has broken 599 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:30,200 Speaker 2: down and limited our imagination. I like to call that 600 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,239 Speaker 2: status realism, the idea that there's no alternative to this 601 00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:37,400 Speaker 2: hierarchy of rulers and rule. The people just need to 602 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:39,680 Speaker 2: submit to the wills and whims of others, rather than 603 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:44,279 Speaker 2: organizing for themselves in their communities. There's, of course, the 604 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:50,960 Speaker 2: response of apocalypse worship, rather classic response around those who 605 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:55,400 Speaker 2: end up obsessing over collapse and honestly that the worshipers 606 00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:57,640 Speaker 2: of the apocalypse are also hould to a form of 607 00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:03,040 Speaker 2: blind hope. You know, the accelerat doomsday preppers, cultists, extreme survivalists, 608 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:07,000 Speaker 2: zombie video game enthusiasts, believers in the end times. They 609 00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:10,719 Speaker 2: all seem to have a whole so they seem to 610 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:15,560 Speaker 2: have a real excitement for collapse, or they fixate really 611 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:17,839 Speaker 2: heavily on the ideal version of the end of the world, 612 00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,600 Speaker 2: like they can't wait for the world to end. They 613 00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:25,280 Speaker 2: embrace the sort of we're all on our own mantra, 614 00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:32,839 Speaker 2: barricade themselves, bunker down, stockpile weapons, and essentials. They get 615 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:36,560 Speaker 2: en up for a violent future because they anticipate that 616 00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:42,239 Speaker 2: others will react to the situation similarly to how they 617 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:45,799 Speaker 2: intend to react. So they've taken like a page from 618 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:48,759 Speaker 2: ad Marxs and like, yeah, I'm going to be immortant Joe, 619 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:52,279 Speaker 2: so I don't end up a thrall of immortant Joe. 620 00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:53,239 Speaker 3: Yeah. 621 00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:56,600 Speaker 2: I mean, if it's not obvious, the people who respond 622 00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:59,080 Speaker 2: in this way freak me out, you know, those who 623 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:02,279 Speaker 2: look at what's going on and instead of resisting or 624 00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:05,920 Speaker 2: trying to change the circumstances, they just accept it as 625 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:09,719 Speaker 2: things going according to schedule of prophecy, or they try 626 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,560 Speaker 2: to make it worse. I don't know if you've seen 627 00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:15,040 Speaker 2: Leave the World. 628 00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:17,680 Speaker 3: Behind, Oh my god, yes, horrible. 629 00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:24,759 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure you remember that one character and that 630 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:29,600 Speaker 2: prepper and his whole response to the crisis before him 631 00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,080 Speaker 2: completing not a selfishness. 632 00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:36,640 Speaker 3: Which is a betrayal to his character inspiration in the 633 00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:39,920 Speaker 3: movie Tremors, which showed the correct way to be a prepper, 634 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,200 Speaker 3: which is to actually help the people in your community. 635 00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:47,000 Speaker 2: I actually haven't seen that movie. It's my list. 636 00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:51,160 Speaker 3: It's well, it is a It is an old movie 637 00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:54,359 Speaker 3: about a worm that takes over a small town. It's 638 00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:58,880 Speaker 3: pretty silly, but it's Stephen King movie. I don't think so. 639 00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:02,120 Speaker 2: No, it sounds like something Stephen King would write. 640 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:04,880 Speaker 3: It's it's not really a horror. It's more of like 641 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:11,000 Speaker 3: a comedy thriller. Like it's a comedy. Okay, it's not 642 00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:14,600 Speaker 3: a comedy, but it is a nately funny situation. Also 643 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:17,000 Speaker 3: because it's like filmed in the eighties or nineties, like 644 00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:19,920 Speaker 3: it it just the way it's age just makes it 645 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:24,600 Speaker 3: more funny. But it is also a good movie. And 646 00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:28,239 Speaker 3: and uh yeah, after after this, I mean it's it's 647 00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:30,520 Speaker 3: kind of like what if like an earthquake or a 648 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:33,719 Speaker 3: tornado hits this small town, except this is more like adversarial. 649 00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:37,320 Speaker 3: It's like this like worm is like like like causing 650 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:39,759 Speaker 3: like the town's buildings to like cave in because it's 651 00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:44,439 Speaker 3: like digging underground. And and we we see we see 652 00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:49,320 Speaker 3: this fantastic, fantastic prepper character is able to help everybody 653 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:52,960 Speaker 3: out because he is he is prepared for such a scenario. 654 00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:59,480 Speaker 2: How kind of film, Yes, unlike unlike that throuchebag and 655 00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:05,360 Speaker 2: and leave the World Behind. Yes, we'll talk about that 656 00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:09,680 Speaker 2: movie after Yeah, I mean the last response I really 657 00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:13,680 Speaker 2: wanted to cover was despair, pessimism, seeing the worst, expecting 658 00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:19,000 Speaker 2: the worst, living and utter defeat weighing down actual efforts 659 00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:22,560 Speaker 2: with pessimism jumping into my comment section to be more 660 00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:26,720 Speaker 2: in our faith. I mean, according to those in despair, 661 00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:29,600 Speaker 2: there's nothing that we can do to affect our future, 662 00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:35,360 Speaker 2: and in my eyes, those on this dumor pillarre just 663 00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:40,320 Speaker 2: as misguided as those who are hyped up with blind opium. 664 00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:43,640 Speaker 2: I think it's okay to admit that we don't know 665 00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:46,320 Speaker 2: what's going to happen. You know, I don't claim to 666 00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,880 Speaker 2: your profit. I don't think anybody should. The IPCC reports, 667 00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:56,400 Speaker 2: for example, are a consensus of scientists and their anistani 668 00:42:56,480 --> 00:43:01,239 Speaker 2: of situation. Some scientists are going to be more in 669 00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:07,839 Speaker 2: their reporting, others are a bit more catastrophes. But either way, 670 00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:09,719 Speaker 2: I really don't think we need to get into the 671 00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:11,960 Speaker 2: weeds of just how bad it is or exactly how 672 00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:15,160 Speaker 2: it's going to happen. With matters that things need to 673 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:19,719 Speaker 2: change some way somehow. I think it's important to try 674 00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:21,919 Speaker 2: and understand as much as the situation as you could, 675 00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:26,360 Speaker 2: not to the point of obsession, to take note of 676 00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:28,640 Speaker 2: how we respond to the issue to look at the 677 00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:31,160 Speaker 2: various responses I cover it and see if you fit 678 00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:36,600 Speaker 2: into any of those camps, and to recognize that the 679 00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:41,279 Speaker 2: worst case scenario is far from inevitable. My advice is 680 00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:44,719 Speaker 2: really to prepare for the worst in whatever way you can, 681 00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:50,680 Speaker 2: and put hope and build for the best. Build community, 682 00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:58,480 Speaker 2: build connections, build your skills, build your strengths, and push 683 00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:01,719 Speaker 2: in any way you can, and whatever's fare, you find 684 00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:09,640 Speaker 2: yourself for meaningful change. Because say it with me now, 685 00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:16,480 Speaker 2: it could happen here, It certainly could. That's it for me. 686 00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:21,080 Speaker 2: I'm on YouTube andwism, I'm on peatureon dot com, slash 687 00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:26,800 Speaker 2: sent du and that's it. Well, paw what to older people? Peace? 688 00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:35,240 Speaker 1: It could happen here? As a production of cool Zone Media. 689 00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:38,160 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 690 00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:40,400 Speaker 1: cool zonemedia dot com or check us out on the 691 00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:43,840 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 692 00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:46,400 Speaker 1: You can find sources for it could Happen here, updated 693 00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:50,480 Speaker 1: monthly at cool zonemedia dot com, slash sources. Thanks for listening.