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Speaker 1: The Utah County Attorney says, Charlie Kirk's alleged assassin used

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Speaker 1: his grandfather's rifle to kill Kirk and afterwards praised that gun,

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Speaker 1: just one of the deeply disturbing details authorities revealed this afternoon.

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Speaker 2: A short while ago, the twenty two.

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Speaker 1: Year old suspect appeared remotely from the Utah County jail

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Speaker 1: for his first court appearance since the assassination of Kirk.

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Speaker 1: Robinson wore a suicide prevention smock and did not show

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Speaker 1: any emotion as the charges were read. He did clearly

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Speaker 1: speak his name. The Utah County attorney says, the alleged

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Speaker 1: assassin confessed to his family and his lover. Seven charges

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Speaker 1: against Robinson were announced, including aggravated murder.

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Speaker 3: Anyway, I know they're going for the They're likely to

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Speaker 3: go for the death penalty in this case, and in

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Speaker 3: Utah they shoot you.

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Speaker 2: So I got no problem with that.

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Speaker 3: Shoot this scumbag after a trial, then silently it's gonna

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Speaker 3: be too complicated. Well, actually we could ask a judge

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Speaker 3: about that. Larry Goodman joins us. This is Katie's dad,

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Speaker 3: who was a judge for the Superior Court of Alameda County.

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Speaker 3: For those of you across the country who don't know,

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Speaker 3: that's where Oakland is, Alameda County for a.

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Speaker 2: Very long time. How long were you a judge?

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Speaker 4: Judge, Larry, I was a judge a little over thirty

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Speaker 4: three years.

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Speaker 2: Thirty three years. Wow.

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Speaker 3: So you got a bachelor's degree at Stanford? What did

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Speaker 3: you get your bachelor's degree.

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Speaker 4: In political science?

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Speaker 2: Okay? And did were you planning to become a judge?

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Speaker 4: No? I with a political science degree, there's not a

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Speaker 4: lot you can do except teach political science or go

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Speaker 4: to law school. Okay, who went to last.

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Speaker 2: And then you went to law school? Do you have

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Speaker 2: to go to law school to become a judge? Yes,

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Speaker 2: you do. You have to be a lawyer to be

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Speaker 2: a judge. That makes sense. Yeah, okay, So I just

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Speaker 2: want to get that out of the way. So any thoughts.

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Speaker 3: First of all, just as you've been following this as

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Speaker 3: a you know, as a citizen of the country who

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Speaker 3: just happens to have a hell of a lot of

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Speaker 3: background knowledge on the way courts procedures go and whether

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Speaker 3: or not people are found guilty or not, is he

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Speaker 3: looking pretty dead right?

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Speaker 4: I would say so. I mean it sounds like from

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Speaker 4: the news reports and what little bit I've read that

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Speaker 4: he's pretty much confessed and they can use all those

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Speaker 4: text messages as statements against his own interests with his

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Speaker 4: roommate that he said that he did it. So yeah,

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Speaker 4: I think it's it's going to be more like a

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Speaker 4: slow plea what we used to call when the evidence

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Speaker 4: is so overwhelming of guilt that the person insists upon

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Speaker 4: having a trial. We used to call it a slow flea.

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Speaker 4: You're going to be found guilty, we all know it,

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Speaker 4: but we have to go through the process.

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Speaker 3: What will the defense attorneys even try?

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Speaker 2: Do you suppose.

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Speaker 4: You know, in a case like this, it's gonna if

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Speaker 4: they the jury, they probably won't do a lot because

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Speaker 4: it will be the same jury that tries the case

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Speaker 4: that will decide the penalty, and so they probably don't

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Speaker 4: want to irritate the jury too much. So I think

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Speaker 4: though they won't be trying any hail Mary type passes,

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Speaker 4: they might write raise issues about his mental health. It's

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Speaker 4: confidency type of thing. But when you're talking about the

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Speaker 4: same jury deciding that your client states the client decides

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Speaker 4: your client's guilt or innocence, you don't want to mad

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Speaker 4: at you, but the time you start, the penalty drops.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So there's a chance that the lawyers are thinking,

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Speaker 3: the best thing we could do for this guy is

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Speaker 3: keep him from getting the.

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Speaker 4: Death penalty exactly exactly.

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Speaker 2: And if he's found guilty, he's ever getting out.

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Speaker 4: Right, I can't imagine. I mean, crazy things happen. I

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Speaker 4: mean even in during the trial itself. You may have

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Speaker 4: a Every time you put a case in front of

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Speaker 4: a jury, there's always the danger of having a lawless

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Speaker 4: juror or a juror that has their own agenda that

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Speaker 4: throws everything off track. But I would say that he's

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Speaker 4: going to be found guilty and that if he is,

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Speaker 4: he'll either get the death penalty, your life without.

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Speaker 3: Parole okay before we'll get back to him. And I

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Speaker 3: got some questions about that. But have you been a

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Speaker 3: judge in cases with a scumbag that you like, You

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Speaker 3: fully believe they're guilty but they ended up walking.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely.

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Speaker 4: One of my big death penalty cases where the charge

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Speaker 4: was he killed both his sisters and tried to kill

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Speaker 4: his parents, and it was my OJ Simpson trial. It

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Speaker 4: lasted four months and the jury found him not guilty

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Speaker 4: of two counts of murder. And two counts of attempted murder,

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Speaker 4: and then about two hours later they met him across

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Speaker 4: the street from Margarine.

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Speaker 3: Wow And when the foreman read out, we find you

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Speaker 3: know so and so not guilty?

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Speaker 2: Were you just like what well?

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Speaker 4: I was? And I used to get the verdicts before

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Speaker 4: they were read, and I wanted to make it filled

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Speaker 4: out properly. And the jury came back after a four

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Speaker 4: month trial, they came back with a verdict in less

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Speaker 4: than two and a half hours. And the defense was

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Speaker 4: so sure that there was going to be a guilty

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Speaker 4: verdict that they soon as we found out there was

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Speaker 4: a verdict, they asked if I we put their client

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Speaker 4: on suicide watch before we started the penalty trial, and

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Speaker 4: that wasn't necessary because the surrey found I'm not guilty.

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Speaker 3: So where does that leave you? After years of doing this?

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Speaker 3: A couple of different things. One, where do you rank

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Speaker 3: our justice system? And compared to others in other countries

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Speaker 3: or throughout history? Are we doing it better than anybody

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Speaker 3: ever has? That's always been my belief, but maybe I'm

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Speaker 3: maybe I'm wrong about that? And where are you on

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Speaker 3: the whole Better to have one hundred men go free

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Speaker 3: than an innocent man found guilty.

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Speaker 4: Well, I think we do have probably the best system.

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Speaker 4: The problem with our system now is become subject to

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Speaker 4: a lot of politics. Jurors come sometimes come in with

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Speaker 4: their own agendas. I've seen judges that get appointed to

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Speaker 4: the bench that have their own agendas and do things

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Speaker 4: that probably they shouldn't do if they were uploading their

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Speaker 4: roads and not being partial. In part in trying to

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Speaker 4: be impartial, and I think it's better to have a

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Speaker 4: guilty person go free than have an innocent person be

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Speaker 4: executed or spend thirty years in prison. The consequences are

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Speaker 4: It's shocking when you know somebody is guilty, like I

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Speaker 4: did in this case and they walked out, But you

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Speaker 4: have to do I had to actually make a call

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Speaker 4: in that case. It probably led to him being found

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Speaker 4: not guilty because it was a crucial piece of evidence

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Speaker 4: that the police messed up, and I spent three days

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Speaker 4: trying to find out a way to let it in

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Speaker 4: so the jury could hear it, and there just was

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Speaker 4: no legal way to do that. So I had to

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Speaker 4: make the ruling in favor of the defense, and I

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Speaker 4: think that played a big part. I still live with

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Speaker 4: that one.

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Speaker 3: Well, a big picture though, the way we're supposed to

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Speaker 3: look at it is that forces cops to just be better, right.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, it wasn't just the cops fault. It

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Speaker 4: was just a circumstance of a key witness that was

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Speaker 4: going to testify. Matter of fact, it was one of

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Speaker 4: the victims who eventually died. But she targeted her brother

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Speaker 4: and said he did it, and I saw his face

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Speaker 4: in the shotgun blast. And this was after she'd been

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Speaker 4: in the hospital for two months, and the day before

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Speaker 4: she was supposed to testify, she threw an air embolism

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Speaker 4: and died, and the statements that she made were not

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Speaker 4: admissible because they weren't excited utterances or a statements made

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Speaker 4: in anticipation of death. So it was hearsay and it

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Speaker 4: wasn't admitted.

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Speaker 3: So back to Utah scumbag. There's going to be a

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Speaker 3: tremendous amount of attention paid to this trial, obviously, every

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Speaker 3: aspect of it. This story is now what going on

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Speaker 3: a week old and still leads everywhere all the time,

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Speaker 3: so it's had, you know, it's really gotten a lot

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Speaker 3: of people's attention. I don't know if Utah has these

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Speaker 3: specific rules around cameras in the courtroom, or if it's

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Speaker 3: a case by case circumstance. But what are you what's

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Speaker 3: your opinion of cameras in the courtroom. It seems while

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Speaker 3: I'm as interested in anybody is watching these sorts of things.

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Speaker 3: And obviously transparency is a good thing for a justice system,

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Speaker 3: I just feel like it distorts things so much.

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Speaker 2: I'm mostly against it.

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Speaker 4: Well, I tried a lot of high publicity cases, excuse me,

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Speaker 4: and I never let cameras in the courtroom.

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Speaker 2: That would have been your decision.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, when the cameras are in, Ye, generally it's up

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Speaker 4: to the judge decisions. And when cameras are in the

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Speaker 4: courtroom just try as hard as they may. Lawyers play

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Speaker 4: to the cameras. They they get a little more outrageous,

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Speaker 4: they get a little more flamboyant, a little more aggressive.

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Speaker 4: Sometimes makes the jury feel uncomfortable because they don't want

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Speaker 4: to have a camera person slip up and show their face.

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Speaker 4: It changes the whole dynamics of the court room. So

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Speaker 4: I never let them in.

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Speaker 3: That's really interesting. You had friends. I assume judges that

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Speaker 3: did would allow cameras in though.

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Speaker 2: What was their argument? Transparency?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, transparency, I mean, and sometimes the judges will play

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Speaker 4: to the camera.

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Speaker 2: Ah, right, you can become famous.

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Speaker 4: Think of Altido.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So if there's a camera there and you're feeling all

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Speaker 4: judicial and everything, then you act a little differently if

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Speaker 4: the camera pans on the bench. So there's just not

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Speaker 4: a good I get the transparency thing, but there's really

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Speaker 4: not a good upside to having that kind of transparency

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Speaker 4: if people want to see you trialy and come down

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Speaker 4: and sit in the audience.

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Speaker 3: Anything before we let you go, anything surprised you over

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Speaker 3: the last several days since they got him, arrested him,

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Speaker 3: you know, he showed up in the courtroom first time.

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Speaker 3: Anything we should be on the watch out for.

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Speaker 4: No. It's interesting. Utah has a very strict death penalty.

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Speaker 4: I was doing a little research on it, and the

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Speaker 4: aggravation factor is that he exposed others to the risk

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Speaker 4: of death or injury when he killed Charlie Kirk, And

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Speaker 4: that's what they're going to the whole aggravating circumstance on

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Speaker 4: to try to get the death penalty. In California, there

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Speaker 4: was a lot wider area of aggravation circumstances that you

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Speaker 4: can use, but this is they have to prove beyond

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Speaker 4: a reasonable doubt that he put other people's lives at

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Speaker 4: risk and proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the aggravating

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Speaker 4: circumstances outwigh mitigating, and that the death penalty is justified

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Speaker 4: and appropriate. And that's a pretty good standard. So it'll

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Speaker 4: be interesting to see if it plays out.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I got another question before we let you go,

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Speaker 3: all these years of watching people come before you, the

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Speaker 3: ones that are guilty, how often are the idiots? And

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Speaker 3: how often are they and how often are they too

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Speaker 3: smart for their own good? I think that's what this

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Speaker 3: kid's deal is. He's too smart for his own good.

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Speaker 3: He thinks he, you know, can fix the world and

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Speaker 3: get away with it and all that.

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Speaker 4: Oh, I had my share of well, i'd say most of.

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Speaker 2: Them idiots, most of our idiots, most.

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Speaker 4: Of my idiots. But I had a had a couple

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Speaker 4: of high publicity cases where the guy who was just

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Speaker 4: thought he was smarter than everybody else in the courtroom, right,

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Speaker 4: and it turned out.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, yeah, that's that's got to be something when

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Speaker 3: you when you're looking at an idiot who committed a crime.

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Speaker 3: You know, let's not talk about really hurting somebody, because

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Speaker 3: there's no excusing that. Well, you know, you try to

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Speaker 3: pull off a robin, a bank or whatever. You must

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Speaker 3: look at some of these people and think, God, dang it,

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Speaker 3: you had no shot in life.

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Speaker 2: You're a moron.

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Speaker 4: Well yeah, I mean most of them are like that,

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Speaker 4: particularly in Oakland. I mean that's that's just kind of

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Speaker 4: a way of life. I would I would have a

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Speaker 4: third category. And some of them are just pure evil.

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Speaker 2: Ah, that's a good one artist guy.

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Speaker 4: In the room. You can have the idiot and you've

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Speaker 4: got the ones that are just pure evil.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And that might be what this this shooter in

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Speaker 3: Utah is also, he might just be evil.

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Speaker 4: We talked about it before. The shark eyes, you know,

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Speaker 4: and if you look at his booking photo, he's got

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Speaker 4: those shark eyes again.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that is something you've talked to us about before. Hey,

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Speaker 3: Judge lair Ry, Larry Goodman, thanks for coming on the

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Speaker 3: air today.

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Speaker 4: Appreciate it, sure, Jack, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, if you if you didn't hear us talking about

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Speaker 3: that before, there are some people you look at, the

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Speaker 3: judge said, and cops will tell you this too. You

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Speaker 3: did you look at them or they look at you

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Speaker 3: and you can just see there's there's no soul in there.

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Speaker 3: For whatever reason, you know what, whatever's gone wrong Armstrong

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Speaker 3: and Getty