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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Steph.

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Speaker 1: I never told you protection of iHeart Radio and listeners.

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Speaker 1: You might have heard our recent episode we did where

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Speaker 1: Samantha dug into her identity and got a DNA report

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Speaker 1: UM and things against Samantha for being so open, but

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Speaker 1: that brought to mine a past episode we did correct, right. So,

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Speaker 1: if you've been listening to my journey, specifically when it

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Speaker 1: comes to Chinese find my identity as a Korean adopted,

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Speaker 1: a transracial adoptee living in the Southern State and trying

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Speaker 1: to kind of just come to terms with who I

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Speaker 1: am and trying to understand my past, you know that. Uh.

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Speaker 1: I have been digging and trying to find as many

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Speaker 1: resources as I can UM for a while now, and

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Speaker 1: one of that happily included the book All You Can

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Speaker 1: Ever Know, written by Nicole Chung, who after we were

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Speaker 1: like we're going to do this book, she was like,

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Speaker 1: I would love to come up if you want me

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Speaker 1: to come on, I can't. I was like, yes, please,

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Speaker 1: So she came on to talk about her memoir, which

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Speaker 1: is her experience as a transmational adoptee discovering her biological

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Speaker 1: family and come into terms with grief and death, with

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Speaker 1: loss of family members in her adoptive family. So beautifully written.

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Speaker 1: If you haven't read it, you should go read it

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Speaker 1: before you hit this or maybe after. UM and just

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Speaker 1: her experiences and her reminiscing about what it feels like

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Speaker 1: to be Asian in a very white world. UM and Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I thought that we would come back to visit it

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Speaker 1: because it definitely take me a moment. I think we

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Speaker 1: talked about the process I had to have in reading

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Speaker 1: this book and just really making sure I wasn't triggered

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Speaker 1: because we talked about that with the twenty three and

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Speaker 1: Me podcasts, but really trying to grasp what this felt

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Speaker 1: like and what this looked like in Unwrapped wing to

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Speaker 1: rediscover who I was and who I am. UM and

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Speaker 1: Nicole Chung going through that process as well, and just

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Speaker 1: writing it right. And she's been writing a lot. You

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Speaker 1: brought up some of the recent stuff she's written UM

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Speaker 1: in past episodes, so if you want to find more

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Speaker 1: of her work, it's amazing and it's out there. Also.

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Speaker 1: It was beautiful conversation for me to get to the

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Speaker 1: privilege to hear. But it does contain something that I

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Speaker 1: like sometimes keeps me up at night? Is that I

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Speaker 1: said because in my family's and how we talked about it,

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Speaker 1: But I used the word like real mother, which I

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Speaker 1: think about and regret to this day. No, no, I

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Speaker 1: and I know like it. It's nuanced. It changes based

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Speaker 1: on again your own situation. But I think about it,

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Speaker 1: it's like, oh, no, I sound terrible. So just just

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Speaker 1: note I have I ruminate on a listeners I do. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know what that brings to a bigger conversation that

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Speaker 1: hopefully we'll come back to. And I do want to

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Speaker 1: come back to in this conversation when we're talking about

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Speaker 1: out possible overturning of Roe v. Wade, which is the

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Speaker 1: abortion rights privacy for women that had happened in nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventy three, and the conversation and the part in which

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Speaker 1: they talk about adoption really you know, takes away the

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Speaker 1: burden of women not wanting their children essentially, or people

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Speaker 1: who don't want to actually raise children, and how weaponized

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Speaker 1: we are in this conversation and what that makes us

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Speaker 1: feel like. And then also when they do say there's

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Speaker 1: adoption as a as in you know, this is a

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Speaker 1: solution for not getting an abortion. Um and when they

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Speaker 1: come back with so, how many children have you adopted?

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Speaker 1: And a majority of the answer is none, and they

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Speaker 1: say in response, I have my own kids. And I've

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Speaker 1: heard that response so many times now and it's kind

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Speaker 1: of like a ha, gotcha. But for us adoptees, there's

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Speaker 1: so many triggering traumatic responses to this that made me

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Speaker 1: have to wither away my person and just like associate

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Speaker 1: which we've talked about previously from this conversation because of

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Speaker 1: that rhetoric, and Nicole and I talked a little bit

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Speaker 1: about what that looks like in comparison to why having

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Speaker 1: a personal connection on biological connection can be important as well. Right, right,

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Speaker 1: it was amazing conversation, So let's get into it. Please

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Speaker 1: enjoy this classic episode. Hey, this is Annie and Samantha,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to stuff I've never told your production of

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Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. So today it is a special episode.

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Speaker 1: And because of that, I'm not you're off the hook, Samantha.

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna ask a big question of the day,

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Speaker 1: but I have so many. You have the best questions,

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Speaker 1: um and usually somewhat related as opposed to my questions,

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Speaker 1: which is I'm just hungry. So let's talk about food,

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Speaker 1: So okay too, I can't. I love your questions. But

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Speaker 1: all right, keeping on going, we do have a very

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Speaker 1: special episode because it's time for another Smiinty book Club,

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Speaker 1: and today we are talking about Nicole Chung's book All

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Speaker 1: You Can Ever Know, a memoir, which was suggestion by Samantha. Yes.

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Speaker 1: It tells the story of Chung's experience with transracial adoption

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Speaker 1: as a Korean who was adopted into a white Catholic

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Speaker 1: family and raised in a very white town. The title

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Speaker 1: refers to something her adoptive mother told her about her

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Speaker 1: adoption and her birth family, that it may be all

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Speaker 1: you Can Ever Know, And it deals with themes of family, identity,

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Speaker 1: adoption and all of the complexities within those things. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and today is a special one because we got to

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Speaker 1: have an interview with the author and it was such

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Speaker 1: a great interview. Um, and I loved every moment of it,

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Speaker 1: So thank you, Nicole. But stick around for that because

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Speaker 1: it is a big portion of the show. We talked

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Speaker 1: about this book in depth and just kind of the

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Speaker 1: behind the scenes and just kind of some of the

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Speaker 1: thought processes with it. Yes, yes, Um, But briefly, we

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Speaker 1: did want to give an overview The plot essentially follows

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Speaker 1: Chung throughout her life growing up in Yes, a religious

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Speaker 1: family that believed her to be a gift from God

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Speaker 1: to your adulthood, and her decision to seek out her

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Speaker 1: birth parents as she starts a family of her own.

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Speaker 1: Her first pregnancy is intertwined with her making contact with

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Speaker 1: her birth family right. So, as a child, when Chung

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Speaker 1: asked about her adoption, her parents always told her the

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Speaker 1: same story, a series of events that were the will

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Speaker 1: of God that led them to finding her and adopting

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Speaker 1: her um. And she was born premature, so that is

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Speaker 1: a big portion of the plot in her life. Is

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Speaker 1: That's how I would say, that's strange to think of

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Speaker 1: someone's life as a plot, But I said, I mean,

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Speaker 1: every everyone's life is a stage age. So the adoption

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Speaker 1: happened very quickly, and it was a close adoption, which

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Speaker 1: meant that legally the birth parents were not supposed to

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Speaker 1: make contact with the birth child or the family right.

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Speaker 1: Chung's time in school was marked by loneliness and isolation.

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Speaker 1: Um the only she was the only non white child

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Speaker 1: in her class. Her adoptive parents were color blind, which

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Speaker 1: is the term you probably recognize if you've been listening

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Speaker 1: to our previous but clubs would also just you know,

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Speaker 1: paying attention to what's all the conversations happening row Um,

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Speaker 1: and in that way they did not give her the

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Speaker 1: tools to talk about racism or even really understand it

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Speaker 1: and her experiences with it. She writes about how in

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Speaker 1: many ways her adoptive parents were unprepared to raise a

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Speaker 1: Korean child. They also didn't have many answers for Chung

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Speaker 1: when she asked for any information about her birth family.

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Speaker 1: So this led her to wonder why her birth family

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Speaker 1: gave her up if she mattered to them at all,

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Speaker 1: what were they like if they thought about her at all?

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Speaker 1: She went searching for the information she could find in

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Speaker 1: her house, and she discovered a letter indicating her birth

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Speaker 1: mother had reached out to her, and her adoptive parents

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Speaker 1: had not told her. So some of the chapters I

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Speaker 1: actually told from the point of view of Cindy, who

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Speaker 1: we find out as the book goes on, is Nicole's

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Speaker 1: birth sister. Their birth parents had told Cindy and Um

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Speaker 1: their other half sister Jessica, that Nicole had died at birth.

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Speaker 1: As Nicole gets older, she becomes sort of an adoption

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Speaker 1: ambassador although it's kind of a theme throughout her life,

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Speaker 1: collecting stories and answering questions for people who are looking

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Speaker 1: at transracial adoption, and in doing so starts arriving at

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Speaker 1: questions of her own. She meets her husband and becomes pregnant,

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Speaker 1: and the questions get louder when she realizes she can't

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Speaker 1: really fill out the medical history. She starts the process

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Speaker 1: of reaching out to them, filing paperwork and scraps of

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Speaker 1: information as her pregnancy progresses, until just as her child

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Speaker 1: is born, she hears from her birth father and learned

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Speaker 1: she has a birth sister, Cindy, who was abused by

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Speaker 1: her birth mother. Cindy and her birth mother are estranged

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Speaker 1: and her birth parents are divorced. Um Nicole also learns

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Speaker 1: that yes, she has this step sister. Her birth father

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Speaker 1: especial regret at putting her up for adoption, explaining that

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Speaker 1: her birth mother had wanted a boy, that they didn't

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Speaker 1: have the money for sick child as Nicole was expected

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Speaker 1: to be, and later that she was abusive and he

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Speaker 1: believed adoption to be the best thing for Nicole. So

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Speaker 1: this clash with the story China told herself about her

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Speaker 1: birth family. UM and now it was complicated with abuse

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Speaker 1: and concerns that she was unprepared to be a mother herself.

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Speaker 1: But it's a beautiful story because she starts in a

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Speaker 1: relationship with Cindy, her sister, one that goes on to

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Speaker 1: be close and loving. Um. It starts from emails and

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Speaker 1: too shared photos, to phone calls and eventually meeting in person.

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Speaker 1: They sharing their lives with each other, and she does

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Speaker 1: go on to form a tentative relationship with her birth

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Speaker 1: father and his new wife, a relationship she does not

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Speaker 1: keep from her adoptive parents. And it's really beautifully written

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Speaker 1: and moving and Um, as I was reading it, Samantha,

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Speaker 1: I've heard echoes of so many things you've told me

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Speaker 1: that you've shared with me, and um I, it's also

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Speaker 1: so relatable to anyone because I related to it too,

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Speaker 1: And during this interview that we're about to share, it

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Speaker 1: was really beautiful for me to kind of just sit

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Speaker 1: back and listen to you bond and and have this

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Speaker 1: more in depth conversation because you do have those shared

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Speaker 1: experiences and and Nicole is very clear that you can't

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Speaker 1: like everybody's experience is different to their own life, but

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Speaker 1: they're just certain circumstances, um that even though I can

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Speaker 1: relate to, it was really lovely for me to to

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Speaker 1: kind of sit back and let you have that space,

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Speaker 1: let you both have that lovely conversation, right, I will say, yeah,

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Speaker 1: our stories definitely the beginning, and she talks a little

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Speaker 1: bit about origin stories and the beginnings, um that it

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Speaker 1: was different for her and I. She had the unusual

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Speaker 1: circumstances of being born in the US and her biological

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Speaker 1: parents being immigrants in the US, and then being adopted

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Speaker 1: after the fact, as opposed to where I was adopted

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Speaker 1: from Korea while I was at an orphanage and was

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Speaker 1: at a young age six seven years old before I

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Speaker 1: came to the US, So that was different. But the

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Speaker 1: whole internal monologue that she had growing up and seeing

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Speaker 1: her differences with the rest of our community was so

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Speaker 1: familiar and so too real and vivid for me that

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Speaker 1: it was really nice to have a moment just kind

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Speaker 1: of dissecting which what each other had experienced almost around

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Speaker 1: the same time, because she and I are similar in age,

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Speaker 1: but she was in closer to Portland, Ish and I

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Speaker 1: was in Georgia. But having that similarity with very different atmospheres,

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Speaker 1: it was comforting at the same time, it was very

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Speaker 1: shockingly honest. Yeah yeah, and we're so so glad um

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Speaker 1: that she reached out and we were able to do

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Speaker 1: this interview. So without further build up, let's get into

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Speaker 1: the interview. But first let's get into a quick break

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Speaker 1: for word from our sponsor. And we're back. Thank you sponsor.

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Speaker 1: So let's take it away. So we have someone very

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Speaker 1: special here today for our little book club I shouldn't

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Speaker 1: say little, should I for our gigantic book club with

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Speaker 1: our people's without smenty people's. Um, we have Nicole Chung,

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Speaker 1: author of all you can ever know. Yeah, I'm very

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Speaker 1: excited about this, so welcome Nicole. Yes, thank you so much.

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Speaker 1: I'm really glad to be here. Um, I'm not gonna lie.

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Speaker 1: When we started talking about our next book, I was

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Speaker 1: very excited to pick this one up because obviously is

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Speaker 1: very personal for me as an adoptee from Korea, so

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Speaker 1: on my Korean people. Yeah. Um, So having you even

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Speaker 1: respond when I put up our post about our book

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Speaker 1: club made me so excited. And so we want to

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Speaker 1: thank you for taking the time to sit down because

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Speaker 1: we are we're sitting down on the interwebs right, is

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Speaker 1: that this is what it's called the virtual down and

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Speaker 1: talking with us about your book. So if you don't mind,

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Speaker 1: can you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit

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Speaker 1: about your book? Sure, somebody's Nicole Chung. I'm the author

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Speaker 1: of the memoir all you can ever know. It's my

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Speaker 1: first book. I'm also the editor in chief of Catapult Magazine.

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Speaker 1: And I grew up in Oregon, small town, very white

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Speaker 1: in southern Oregon. I tell people it's like five hours

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Speaker 1: from Portland and six hours from San Francisco, just to

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Speaker 1: give you a sense. It is truly in the middle

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Speaker 1: of nowhere. And the book is about growing up adopted

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Speaker 1: in a white family in a very like white community,

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Speaker 1: and what happened when I grew up and decided to

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Speaker 1: search for my Korean birth family as an adult um

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Speaker 1: And this is a search that coincided with the birth

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Speaker 1: of my first child. So I mean it was it

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Speaker 1: was very strange to have those two things happening at

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Speaker 1: the same time, Like the family was just changing in

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Speaker 1: in so many ways and really like being redefined for me.

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Speaker 1: So I wanted to write about it, and that's where

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Speaker 1: this book came from. Even though your story and my

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Speaker 1: story are fairly different. It was so comforting to see

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Speaker 1: us having the similar conversations and similar thought process, especially

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Speaker 1: when we were children. Um. You you talk a lot

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Speaker 1: about in your book about realizing that you are different

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Speaker 1: and having we always know because obviously white Korean doesn't obvious, um,

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Speaker 1: but having people say it to our faces, and instead

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Speaker 1: of being in our comfort zone with our family where

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Speaker 1: we're isolated and being told you know, you're part of

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Speaker 1: the family or part of the family, which is nice

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Speaker 1: to hear, but then coming outside of that, having mean

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Speaker 1: little children the same things that you don't want to

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Speaker 1: talk about. You're like, well the hill did you just

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Speaker 1: say to me? And yeah, not not even just getting

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Speaker 1: it from kids, but from adults. I mean, like I

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Speaker 1: don't want to make assumptions about your experience, but like

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Speaker 1: I read about in the book, I mean, we had

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Speaker 1: exchanges in the grocery store with total strangers, and it

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Speaker 1: would come up with like substitute teachers calling role. So

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Speaker 1: it was definitely like this thing that was a just

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Speaker 1: a constant source of questioning and conversation and sometimes in

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Speaker 1: ways that felt really intrusive, you know, from people of

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Speaker 1: all ages. Like throughout my childhood, and as you point out,

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Speaker 1: like it's so different. The difference between like knowing, of

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Speaker 1: course you look different from your family, and then going

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Speaker 1: out of that safe space, if your home is a

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Speaker 1: safe space, like going out into the world and and

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Speaker 1: suddenly realizing like, I'm also different from all these people,

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Speaker 1: and like having them call attention to it in different ways. Right, Um,

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Speaker 1: And I didn't want to ask you because obviously for

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Speaker 1: me it was very personal and very vulnerable to see

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Speaker 1: it in writing in someone else's experience. Why do you

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Speaker 1: think it is important that you shared your story and

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Speaker 1: your experiences? Oh gosh, I mean, I just think we

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Speaker 1: need more adoption stories by adoptees in general. I mean certainly,

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Speaker 1: not just mine, and it's not alone. There are definitely

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Speaker 1: others out there that I think it's in dialogue with.

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Speaker 1: But like, by and large, the sort of mainstream conversation

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Speaker 1: like discourse. I know, we have probably like a love

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Speaker 1: hate relationship with that word. But the narrative, like the

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Speaker 1: overall mainstream adoption narrative, I think, is so dominated by

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Speaker 1: like adoptive parents who tend to be white, when like

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Speaker 1: most people in this country who are adopted is a

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Speaker 1: lot of us are people of color. There's a lot

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Speaker 1: of like industry voices, like adoption professionals, there's lawyers, you know,

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Speaker 1: social workers. You've got everybody in the mix, and sometimes

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Speaker 1: it feels like the voices that are missing are really

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Speaker 1: the voices of the adoptees, for whom it is like

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Speaker 1: a deeply personal, lived experience. And I wanted to tell

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Speaker 1: this story, you know, not because I think it's like

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Speaker 1: representative at all of like all adoption stories, all transracial adoptees,

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Speaker 1: not even all Korean adoptees. In fact, for various reasons,

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Speaker 1: my situation is really atypical because I wasn't actually born

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Speaker 1: in Korea, my birth parents immigrants. But you know, I

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Speaker 1: just really feel strongly that like we need more stories

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Speaker 1: by adoptees out there, you know. And I read so

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Speaker 1: many books as a kid, like in some cases looking

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Speaker 1: for myself, or families like mine, or just like multicultural,

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Speaker 1: multiracial families in general. And I think it's getting better,

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Speaker 1: but there certainly weren't, like you know, there's certainly what

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Speaker 1: wasn't the volume of those types of stories that I

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Speaker 1: would have wanted growing up and coming of age and

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Speaker 1: even moving into adulthood. So I mean, I just hoped

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Speaker 1: that it would be one more addition to different genres

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Speaker 1: that I think need expanding. I mean, I was in

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Speaker 1: college before I read my first memoir by an Asian

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Speaker 1: American woman, and so I think, I think there's just

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Speaker 1: like a lot of space for like a lot of

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Speaker 1: different types of stories, and it's it's just one more

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Speaker 1: that I hope means something to people. But that's the

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Speaker 1: thing is that it's not one more, is one added

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Speaker 1: because there's not enough representation in general. So we have representation,

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Speaker 1: but it's already so small for women of color and

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Speaker 1: specific by Asian women. But then even talk about the

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Speaker 1: economy of being an adoptee is even smaller and almost

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Speaker 1: of fetishized in a weird, weird save your way that

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Speaker 1: you needed a breakdown and that thing. I really appreciated

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Speaker 1: how open and vulnerable you were and willing to talk

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Speaker 1: about those situations. Um, but I didn't want to come

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Speaker 1: back because you are a writer. You're not just you

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Speaker 1: know this Korean roles chalking about you're a writer, you're

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Speaker 1: in and you've been a writer. It sounds like since

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Speaker 1: you're a child, like you're talking about how you had

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Speaker 1: to make up your own worlds and create your own

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Speaker 1: characters so you felt represented. So you created it um

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Speaker 1: for this book and for writing in general, what is

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Speaker 1: your process and writing? Oh my gosh, I barely remember

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Speaker 1: having a writing process, if I'm really honest. There are

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Speaker 1: huge swaths of this book I don't remember writing, like

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Speaker 1: I swear I did, but like it's just kind of

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Speaker 1: a big blur, you know. I started it in like

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Speaker 1: the months right before and then right after the twentie election,

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Speaker 1: like there were it was in a great time. I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is not a great time, but that was also

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Speaker 1: an not a great time. I remember putting it down

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Speaker 1: for three months and like barely opening it and feeling

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Speaker 1: like every time I opened it, this doesn't matter, and

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Speaker 1: like kind of closing it. So, I mean, it's always

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Speaker 1: kind of a fraud process, and that two kids, I've

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Speaker 1: got a full time job, and so a lot of

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Speaker 1: this was just kind of crammed in the margins. I

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Speaker 1: mean I would write like every evening for months on end.

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Speaker 1: I would spend at least half the weekend like writing.

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Speaker 1: Lots of days my husband would take the kids out

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Speaker 1: of the house, like on a Saturday, they'd be gone

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Speaker 1: all day I don't know what they did. They would

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Speaker 1: come back at night, I'd be in the same position.

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Speaker 1: He'd be like, did you eat? Did you drink? Like

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Speaker 1: having moved and I so, you know, I so appreciated

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Speaker 1: that I got that space at all, But it was

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Speaker 1: it was definitely not like this like beautiful tranquil writing

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Speaker 1: process with a lot of space and a lot of time.

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Speaker 1: There were no like playlists or candles burning. It was

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Speaker 1: very much just like, you know, oh my god, I

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Speaker 1: have thirty minutes. I've got to really use this thirty minutes.

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Speaker 1: But like, I mean, it is more involved in that.

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Speaker 1: Like there there was definitely like some I mean I

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Speaker 1: out it before a little bit because I had to

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Speaker 1: just sell it. I mean, if I'm honest, I don't

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Speaker 1: know if I would have outlined it otherwise. It wound

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Speaker 1: up looking really different than my outline. But I think

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Speaker 1: if you can, if you can outline a project, you

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Speaker 1: know you can kind of write that project. Turns out

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Speaker 1: your high school teacher was sort of right about that,

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Speaker 1: So I mean that helped me getting at a certain point.

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Speaker 1: Getting reads from friends or family really helped. You know,

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Speaker 1: people always have, especially when you read a memoir. Lots

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Speaker 1: of questions about like how your family read, if they read,

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Speaker 1: how they weighed in all of that, which we could

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Speaker 1: talk about if if you find it interesting. But I

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Speaker 1: mean that was also part of my process. It was

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Speaker 1: figuring out who to invite in and when, and then

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Speaker 1: like how to incorporate those things in. But yeah, it

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Speaker 1: was just a lot of like mining memories. It was

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Speaker 1: a fair amount of interviewing also family members, just to

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Speaker 1: make sure I got my facts right. And like, looking back,

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Speaker 1: I was fortunate to have certain sources, like not just

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Speaker 1: family lure or interviews, but like I've journaled my whole life,

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Speaker 1: you know, so I had like these really detailed entries

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Speaker 1: from around the time I was reaching you know, I

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Speaker 1: kept a journal specifically about my search for my birth family,

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Speaker 1: so I had like, in some cases whole conversations like

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Speaker 1: written down verbatim, which is great because I wrote this

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Speaker 1: book quite a few years after it happened, so I

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Speaker 1: was really fortunate to have that. But yeah, that's I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's a little bit about process. But truly, so much

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Speaker 1: of it is always just like sitting down and forcing

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Speaker 1: yourself to use the time that you have and giving

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Speaker 1: yourself breaks to know when you need to take a

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Speaker 1: step back and actually think about a problem. Like, there

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00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:33,600
Speaker 1: are definitely issues that come up writing where it doesn't

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Speaker 1: matter how long you sit and stare like at the

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Speaker 1: at the words of the screen, you might just need

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Speaker 1: to step back and get some space and think about

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Speaker 1: it without that pressure. Yeah, any are you taking notes?

401
00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:49,280
Speaker 1: And she loves to write pain fiction and she's I

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Speaker 1: think she won't let me read it yet, but uma,

403
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Speaker 1: my fan fiction would destroy you and I'd say that

404
00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:01,359
Speaker 1: it's devastating. She likes tragedy. I do, But yeah, so,

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Speaker 1: and I love how you said that you have to

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Speaker 1: give a step back. And I'm just wondering for writing

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Speaker 1: a memoir because as a writer, I'm sure you're you're

408
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Speaker 1: writing into a world of fiction as well as as

409
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Speaker 1: memoirs and such. Is their process different? Is it? How

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Speaker 1: do you do it in a healthy manner? Because I

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Speaker 1: can't imagine trying to process some of the life experiences

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Speaker 1: and I'm sure sure traumas that's within that. How do

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Speaker 1: you process and do that? It's funny, when I started

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Speaker 1: this book, I really thought I had done all the

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Speaker 1: processing that there was to do, or at least like

416
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Speaker 1: nine of it. I was like, I was very consciously

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Speaker 1: like not writing for say Catharsis or like I wasn't

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Speaker 1: writing to process. Certainly writing helps with that, But by

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Speaker 1: the time I decided to publish about it and have

420
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Speaker 1: it be hopefully like read by others, I was thinking about,

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Speaker 1: like what what does the reader need to know? Like

422
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Speaker 1: what do they need to know to understand the stakes?

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Speaker 1: Like what will they pull from this? What will they

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Speaker 1: take away? Because when you write a memoir, like it's

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00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,280
Speaker 1: not really about you anymore, it is like so much

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Speaker 1: about the reader, Like what relationship will they have to it?

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Speaker 1: You're hoping it's a good story, like first and foremost

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Speaker 1: that it actually draws people in and they want to

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Speaker 1: keep reading, But then like beyond that, you know, with memoir,

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Speaker 1: I think memoir is a form that justifies itself by

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Speaker 1: like through the question like what is in this for

432
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,359
Speaker 1: someone else? Like what can someone else who's not you,

433
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:24,440
Speaker 1: who's not deeply already like in to know with your experience?

434
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:26,479
Speaker 1: Like what do they get out of it? So I

435
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:28,359
Speaker 1: was I was thinking about that a lot, like what

436
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,480
Speaker 1: is the writer need to understand, like in order to

437
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:34,439
Speaker 1: care about this in order to like maybe reconsider some

438
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:37,679
Speaker 1: ideas they might have about adoption or about like you know,

439
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:42,119
Speaker 1: transitional adoption specifically, or about like multicultural multiracial families like

440
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:44,800
Speaker 1: mine and families that are built like not just through

441
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,199
Speaker 1: like marriage, birth but also adoption. Like what do they

442
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:49,959
Speaker 1: need to know to really like get the story, um,

443
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:52,679
Speaker 1: and to maybe re examine some of their ideas about it.

444
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:54,959
Speaker 1: So that was like very much what I was thinking.

445
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:58,879
Speaker 1: And and I think I also again like because it

446
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:00,879
Speaker 1: is so personal, and I'll so because there were so

447
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 1: many people in the story whose like stories overlapped with mine.

448
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:07,879
Speaker 1: I was thinking, um, you know, hopefully not in like

449
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:11,359
Speaker 1: a censoring way, but just like a realistic way, how

450
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,439
Speaker 1: I'm going to portray people as like fully human and

451
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 1: complex and in a respectful way, even if they make

452
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 1: choices that are clearly like questionable, or choices that like

453
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:23,000
Speaker 1: are fine, but what aren't what I would have done,

454
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:26,119
Speaker 1: you know, like making room for for the humanity of

455
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,639
Speaker 1: every other person in the story. I think that was

456
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,040
Speaker 1: also something that I thought about. I'm like worried about

457
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 1: to be honest a lot, right, And that actually brings

458
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 1: me to one of the quotes you read in your

459
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 1: one of your interviews is right, it took so long

460
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 1: for me to realize that love for my family didn't

461
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:43,920
Speaker 1: have to mean staying silent, and that I had to

462
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,440
Speaker 1: write to my anger. And for me as an adoptee,

463
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 1: I always have a fear that's saying I wasn't the

464
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:52,919
Speaker 1: perfect happy orphan adoptee UM would cause hurt and have

465
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 1: a lot of back lies. UM, and being completely honest

466
00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:00,680
Speaker 1: for and for you to write about such an operation. Again,

467
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,720
Speaker 1: like I say in this article, when you say that, UM,

468
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 1: you talk about how important it is to listen to

469
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:10,440
Speaker 1: the uncomfortable stories of adoptions as well as the good,

470
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:12,880
Speaker 1: happy ending ones. What advice do you have for people

471
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 1: who are scared to tell the uncomfortable story? Because you

472
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 1: even talk about getting an email being accused of being ungrateful,

473
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:23,359
Speaker 1: which so much. Yeah, I've heard that too, and I'm like,

474
00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:26,119
Speaker 1: oh my god, please know I love my family. But

475
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:31,120
Speaker 1: it happened and and things were handled wrong, and I'm

476
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,680
Speaker 1: growing from it and I'm still talking again. I'm still

477
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 1: daylish by it and I'm trying to unravel some things.

478
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 1: But what is your advice for people who are scared

479
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 1: to talk about it? Yeah? That's a really good question.

480
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess the first thing. I'm an editor myself,

481
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 1: Like that's my day job, and I love it. I

482
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 1: love working with writers. It's a great privilege to get

483
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 1: to do that. I think, like I never want a writer,

484
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:54,640
Speaker 1: regardless of their background or experience, to feel like they

485
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:58,399
Speaker 1: owe the world, like their trauma or their you know,

486
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 1: the hardest, darkest moments. It takes like certain things have

487
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 1: to happen to you, like as a person and then

488
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,159
Speaker 1: as a writer to get to a point where you

489
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:09,400
Speaker 1: want to tell those stories. And I guess the first

490
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,399
Speaker 1: thing I would say is you don't have to, like

491
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 1: if you're not ready, especially if you're not ready to

492
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 1: do it publicly, because like as well you all know,

493
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 1: there's such a difference between like working and stuff yourself

494
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 1: for working on it with your family, and that's hard enough.

495
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 1: And then like to take that and like bring it

496
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,359
Speaker 1: into at least some part of it into a public sphere.

497
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 1: It's not for everybody. It shouldn't have to be for everybody.

498
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,439
Speaker 1: I am like super grateful when writers are willing to

499
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:34,679
Speaker 1: do that because I've learned so much as a reader

500
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:39,480
Speaker 1: by like reading outside my experience, right, So, but like

501
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 1: you have to balance like what is good for you

502
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 1: personally and your family and those relationships, and then like

503
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:48,640
Speaker 1: what could help others. So I mean that's the first

504
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:50,919
Speaker 1: thing is that you don't owe it to anybody, but

505
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 1: if you want to, and like plenty plenty of people do.

506
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 1: And I've been asked by some plenty of adoptees like

507
00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 1: who are trying to figure out ways to tell these stories?

508
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 1: Like I mean I think just recognizing again that like

509
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:06,719
Speaker 1: it's hard if if writing is going to be your

510
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,680
Speaker 1: catharsis or like your only catharsis. So I would say,

511
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,919
Speaker 1: like making sure you've already done the work, and like

512
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 1: you know you have a good support system. I don't

513
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,679
Speaker 1: like tell people you should go to therapy, but like

514
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,920
Speaker 1: God does, we could all benefit from therapy, Like thank

515
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 1: God for therapy. So I mean I and I did.

516
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 1: I mean I went to I went to therapy, as

517
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 1: I wrote about in the book, like as a transverational uptee,

518
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:32,439
Speaker 1: like at the age of seven, eight nine, um, and

519
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,120
Speaker 1: I haven't been in continuously my whole life, but like

520
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,880
Speaker 1: I was really glad I was lucky to have at

521
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 1: that young age like an adoption competent therapist. Definitely have

522
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 1: run into some who aren't as knowledgeable about it. So

523
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 1: I mean to the extent that like people want to

524
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 1: write about it, I would just like see, like how

525
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:51,679
Speaker 1: like are you really okay? Are you ready to do this?

526
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,719
Speaker 1: And I try not to have that sound condescending, because

527
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:57,399
Speaker 1: you can be in the midst of real trauma and

528
00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 1: still be ready to write about it. You know, that's

529
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 1: not a call I can make. But for me, like

530
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,400
Speaker 1: there's a reason. But like my search happened when it did,

531
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,200
Speaker 1: and this book was published like almost ten years later,

532
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 1: like I couldn't actually I told you, I journaled about it,

533
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:15,160
Speaker 1: and that was for me that was kind of processing catharsis.

534
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 1: But like I could not have written this book while

535
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,879
Speaker 1: it was happening. It would have been like too soon.

536
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:24,359
Speaker 1: So I think just being really honest about where you

537
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,160
Speaker 1: are and and knowing like if you're emotionally psychologically ready

538
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 1: for that are like other things. And then my like

539
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 1: my other big thing was just making sure in terms

540
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,440
Speaker 1: of my family and those relationships. I did not want

541
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 1: the first time they ever learned that I had a

542
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 1: particular issue or problem or like you know, baggage. I

543
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 1: didn't want them to learn about it in an interview

544
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 1: in my book in an essay, like I wanted us

545
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:49,960
Speaker 1: to have had that discussion first. So I mean, this

546
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 1: is a privilege I had because I wasn't estranged from them,

547
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 1: because my parents like did love me. I think it

548
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 1: wasn't easy, but we were able to eventually have enough

549
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 1: conversations where I felt like, Okay, maybe parts of the

550
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 1: book would still be hard for them, or maybe they

551
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 1: wouldn't agree with other parts, but like it wouldn't be

552
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 1: a shock like we would have we would have done

553
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 1: that work already as a family, right, And I kind

554
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 1: of felt that with my sister too, and like other

555
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 1: people in the story, just like, yeah, if if people

556
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 1: were in the book, you know, if if I'm in

557
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:22,959
Speaker 1: touch with them, have a relationship with them, like I

558
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 1: wanted them to not be surprised by by what was shared.

559
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 1: That was just like a very important sort of ground

560
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 1: rule for me. I love that. I feel like that advice,

561
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 1: uh is pretty much covers for anyone who's trying to

562
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 1: write a memoir in general, especially if it's traumatic um

563
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 1: in any way. So thank you for that. And I

564
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 1: did want to go into the book and you you

565
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,959
Speaker 1: talked a little bit already about the reactions of your family,

566
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 1: and it looked like for the most part, your parents,

567
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 1: your adoptive parents, were supportive of your book and and

568
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 1: and um understanding, I know your father passed away before

569
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 1: you were able to publish it, is that correct now?

570
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 1: So I just wanted to know how those conversations went

571
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: down when you discussed the book, as you were talking

572
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,479
Speaker 1: about and even with your sister, your biological sister, how

573
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 1: did all those conversations go. Yeah. So the first time,

574
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 1: I mean I started telling everybody that I was thinking

575
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 1: about writing a book. When it was like I'm like

576
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 1: getting a proposal together, it's going to go out on submission,

577
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 1: it was very hard for me to believe it was

578
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 1: going to sell. So like I was like, you know,

579
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 1: I don't know, it may happen, it may not. Um,

580
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 1: So they take it with a grain of salt that

581
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,479
Speaker 1: like I'm thinking about this and everyone that you know,

582
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 1: I mean, I say it gave me their blessing. But

583
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 1: that's a little too reductive. They were basically okay, like

584
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 1: it's your life. My mom was an adoptive mom. She

585
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 1: was like, you know, as long as you don't write

586
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 1: anything bad about us, Like yeah, it's definitely it's not

587
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 1: going to be like a hit piece, like that's not

588
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 1: the goal. That would it be satisfying And it was funny.

589
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 1: She also said call my Mom was hilarious. She was like, like,

590
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 1: you're not famous, so like who's going to read it?

591
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 1: You know, which is like another it's just a very

592
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 1: mom thing. Um. I think she was picturing like, you know,

593
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 1: the celebrity memoir, right, and I mean that's true. I'm

594
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 1: not famous. People do not care about me individually. But yeah,

595
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 1: so what we talked about it so I I basically

596
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 1: again this goes back to my no surprises rule, but

597
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 1: I you know, even before I sold it, I wanted

598
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 1: them to notice a possibility m I told them when

599
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 1: I sold it. I told them when I was working

600
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 1: on it. And then it was like a lot of

601
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 1: silence for a while because like it's not very interesting

602
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 1: to talk about how you're struggling with your manuscript. And

603
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 1: so um, I think I brought it up again with everybody,

604
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 1: you know, like they'd ask every now and then. But

605
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 1: I mostly just like when I'm actually working on something,

606
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 1: I don't like to let people in, Like I'm like,

607
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 1: you'll know about it when it's published, or like if

608
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 1: I want to show you a draft beforehand. And that's

609
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: what I did, Like when I had a full, like

610
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 1: a full complete draft that my editor was also like

611
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 1: this is good. Like that's when I showed it to

612
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 1: my family and was just like open comment, reading period,

613
00:31:56,360 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 1: share all your thoughts and feelings with me. So I mean,

614
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 1: that's that's kind of how that went. My um my,

615
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 1: So my biological sister, like her story comes into this

616
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 1: so much. There's a lot I share that's like really

617
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 1: specific and personal like about her, And I told I

618
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 1: told her, I was like, you you're the one who

619
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 1: gets veto power, like this is so personal. Um, if

620
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 1: there is anything you want taken out, no questions asked,

621
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 1: we'll take it out. And so I mean she didn't

622
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 1: ask me to take anything out, but I absolutely would have.

623
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 1: That was just really important to me. Um. It was

624
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 1: like a little bit different like with my birth father,

625
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 1: with my adoptive parents, like I would have had a

626
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 1: conversation with them about stuff they really objected to. But

627
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 1: I mean, first of all, I didn't have to because

628
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 1: no one strongly objected, which was great. But also like

629
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 1: I mean this goes back to like I don't know,

630
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 1: there's this like great Lucille Clifton line. It's like it's

631
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 1: from a poem and and she says, like people want

632
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 1: me to remember their memories, but I keep remembering my own.

633
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 1: I might have mangled that somewhat, but I mean, a

634
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 1: memory is it is. It's a book, it's a work

635
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 1: built on memories, and it is so personal. Like my

636
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 1: mother and I might remember, say like a certain thing differently, um,

637
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 1: and when we do, or when she's not sure or

638
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 1: when I'm not sure, I try to acknowledge that in

639
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 1: the text, like I'm a big fan of those signals

640
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 1: and saying I think this, my mother says this, or

641
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 1: you know, neither one of us can totally remember, but

642
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 1: like this is what we think happened. Like I actually

643
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 1: like that, but but yeah, like it doesn't necessarily mean

644
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 1: I would like take it out. So it was a

645
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 1: different kind of negotiation. But but no one actually asked

646
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 1: me to remove anything. You know. I think my parents

647
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 1: were like, you got this year wrong, and like so

648
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 1: I changed the year. And my sister thought of a

649
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,479
Speaker 1: couple of things too that like she had told me

650
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 1: that like it turned out, you know, maybe I forget

651
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 1: what exactly it was, like sort of minor corrections, but

652
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 1: but nobody, nobody like quibbled with anything, like you know,

653
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 1: in terms of content. I mean, I hope that the

654
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 1: other people in the store, especially like my sister and

655
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 1: my parents, like they do feel, um, that it's true

656
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 1: and that it honors them, because that was something that

657
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:12,800
Speaker 1: I really wanted to do. Like I don't know, it's

658
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 1: it's like I just kind of wanted them to feel

659
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 1: like real and to feel fully human and I am

660
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 1: for people to have empathy with them and not just me,

661
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,400
Speaker 1: And I figured if I could do that, then then

662
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,799
Speaker 1: the book would be maybe doing them justice as well. Um.

663
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 1: But like this is going to look different for everybody

664
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:35,719
Speaker 1: of course, writing writing personal stories. It was just kind

665
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 1: of like how I approached it because because I you know,

666
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 1: I am in touch with my family, because these relationships

667
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 1: are really important to me, and because I also wanted

668
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:47,360
Speaker 1: to tell the truth and tell my truth. Um, you

669
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 1: know how to do that and how to negotiate that

670
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 1: when your story overlapped with other people's lives, right, and

671
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 1: you did a great job of intertwining those stories. It

672
00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:59,840
Speaker 1: was very beautiful and it flowed so well, um that

673
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,280
Speaker 1: it didn't take it out like for so many stories.

674
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:03,840
Speaker 1: When it does, it kind of takes you out. You're like,

675
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 1: what just happened? Where am I? But for you, your

676
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 1: story it was perfect. It kind of just was a

677
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 1: beautifully fleshed out, threaded story together. So it was amazing.

678
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:18,879
Speaker 1: But I do want to ask also, because your biological

679
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,840
Speaker 1: father was as a writer as well as well in

680
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,239
Speaker 1: the academic did you actually talk to him about your book?

681
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 1: Did he read it as well? Yeah, it's such a

682
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 1: it's just such a kick that my birth father turns

683
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:31,359
Speaker 1: out to be a writer, and like not just a writer,

684
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 1: but like primarily an essayist, like writing fiction. And he's

685
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 1: told me, he's like, you get this from me, you know,

686
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 1: And I think he's probably right because like nobody in

687
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 1: might adoptive family, you know, is a writer anyway. It's

688
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 1: it's just interesting that but yeah, so he he I did.

689
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 1: I told him at the same time I told my

690
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 1: sister and my adoptive parents, um, and then I sent

691
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 1: all of them the manuscript. I might have sent it

692
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:56,760
Speaker 1: to my sister like a week ahead of the others,

693
00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,760
Speaker 1: but like around the same time, so everyone had a chance.

694
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 1: My first father, you know, he's Korean and he's fluent

695
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 1: in English, but it's not his first language, and so

696
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 1: like he read it, okay, God. First of all, I

697
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:09,920
Speaker 1: think my adoptive parents took forever to read it, and

698
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 1: I was getting getting increasingly anxious the longer they held

699
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:15,399
Speaker 1: out to it. I was, funnily, I was like, it's

700
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:17,720
Speaker 1: been like four or six weeks. I hadn't really heard.

701
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 1: I was like, you know, what do you think? Like,

702
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:23,880
Speaker 1: I know, it's like probably a lot to read, but

703
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 1: it's not like warrant peace. It's like, you know, it's

704
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 1: just not that long. Can we talk about it please?

705
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 1: But so he actually took much longer than they did,

706
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 1: even and so that I did hear from him, he

707
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 1: again didn't ask me to change anything. He said he

708
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,280
Speaker 1: was proud. Um, I know it was like a difficult

709
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 1: thing for him to read it at points. Um, but

710
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 1: I think, I mean, out of everyone, he's probably I

711
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:51,440
Speaker 1: don't know. I think both he and my biological sister,

712
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:55,319
Speaker 1: I think they understood really like almost more than anybody. Why,

713
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 1: like why I wanted to write it down, just like

714
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 1: why that felt very important. Um. You know, again, this

715
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 1: is something that he does himself, and so I don't know,

716
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 1: Like I just think that part of it made sense

717
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 1: to him, like where I was, like in my adoptive family,

718
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:12,880
Speaker 1: I think there there was and still is in some corners,

719
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 1: this like whole question of like why in the world

720
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:17,720
Speaker 1: would you And like, I don't think that's a question

721
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 1: to the Korean side, I think like because both my

722
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:23,880
Speaker 1: father and my sister UM love to write, and like

723
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 1: that's how they remember and how they honor certain memories.

724
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 1: I just think I think they kind of instinctively understood that, right.

725
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:36,919
Speaker 1: I love that. UM. So I also wanted to ask

726
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:40,879
Speaker 1: because I know, as a person who is very open

727
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 1: about adoption for myself as well, I get a lot

728
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 1: of questions. I get a lot of people coming to me.

729
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 1: I'm also a social worker, so I have that kind

730
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 1: of you're actually an experts. Yeah, well not in adoption

731
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 1: but in child stuff. But that sounded really professional, didn't it.

732
00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:01,719
Speaker 1: Child stuff? That's how professional. This is why I'm no

733
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 1: longer in searching to play. But you, like you have

734
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,360
Speaker 1: now kind of touted as the expert. Um. You know,

735
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:09,360
Speaker 1: do you feel like this is something that is a

736
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:13,239
Speaker 1: fairly heavy responsibility since this is not just something that

737
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 1: you research or something that you studied. This is actually

738
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:20,840
Speaker 1: your life that you're basing your conversations on, your expertise

739
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 1: on I guess um that you continually have to keep sharing.

740
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,319
Speaker 1: Do you feel like it's kind of just a wait,

741
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 1: that's a really good question, And no one's ever actually

742
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 1: asked me that before, Like I forget, I forget what

743
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 1: it was. But like at some point, I think, like

744
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 1: a year or two ago, like right around the time

745
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 1: the book was actually coming out, like, there was a

746
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:43,799
Speaker 1: fellow adoptee, and I think she said something to me, like,

747
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 1: how does it feel to be like basically the spokesperson?

748
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 1: And I was like, I mean, I felt really uncomfortable.

749
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 1: And then I was like, oh God, is that what

750
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 1: adopted you think I'm trying to do? Like I'm really not.

751
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 1: I don't think I have the authority or the right,

752
00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 1: you know, as I've tried to stay over and over

753
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,359
Speaker 1: in a way that I hope doesn't sound like dodging responsibility,

754
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:06,280
Speaker 1: but like I can't and don't want to like speak

755
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 1: for like I mean really any adoptees but myself. And

756
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:12,359
Speaker 1: then you balance that against like the fact that like

757
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 1: we are underrepresented, like to some degree, anyone who reads

758
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:19,279
Speaker 1: my book will think that like my experience is I

759
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:21,399
Speaker 1: mean at least somewhat representative of a lot of us.

760
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 1: So like, what what's my responsibility there? Um? I knew

761
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:27,400
Speaker 1: when I wrote it, i'd be kind of feeling some

762
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:30,279
Speaker 1: of this pressure, like the rep sweats at the same time,

763
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:33,279
Speaker 1: like I had written other things about adoption before, and

764
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 1: I got feedback and I've gotten questions, and I felt like, again,

765
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 1: like just much more prepared for that than I would have, say,

766
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 1: ten years earlier. Um, And like in terms of some

767
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:44,719
Speaker 1: of the emails I get from people like the one

768
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 1: that you referenced earlier, you know, people saying I'm ungrateful

769
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 1: or saying that like they feel sorry for my adoptive parents. Um,

770
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 1: you know, and it gets I mean, I've gotten worse

771
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:58,160
Speaker 1: that would have destroyed me ten years ago. I don't

772
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 1: enjoy them now, but I am a to kind of

773
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:03,880
Speaker 1: like I wouldn't say struggled them off. But the vast

774
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,880
Speaker 1: majority of much more positive feedback is like, first of all,

775
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:09,520
Speaker 1: you know, like it sort of outweighs all that hearing

776
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 1: from adoptees means like everything to me, and I probably

777
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 1: hear from like a couple adopt these a week still,

778
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 1: so like that's really meaningful. I don't regret putting the

779
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 1: story out there, and I guess I don't feel too

780
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,439
Speaker 1: much pressure because to me, I've always felt like I'm

781
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,719
Speaker 1: just telling my story. It's only representative of me and

782
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 1: my family. Like every adoptee is an expert on their

783
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 1: own experience, you know, they're they're expert, They're the authority,

784
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 1: and that's why we need so many more stories, right,

785
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 1: But that's also why the pressure is kind of off

786
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 1: of me, because like maybe that's the cop out, but

787
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:46,359
Speaker 1: like I just I've never felt maybe some people view

788
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 1: me differently, but I have never assumed like or accepted

789
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 1: like that responsibility. I really this is like, this is

790
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:56,319
Speaker 1: like the beauty and the power of memoir is that

791
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,399
Speaker 1: it is so personal, like you're gesturing at something more

792
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 1: universal hopefully, but at the end of the day, I

793
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 1: can really only tell my own experience, and so no,

794
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 1: I don't feel it's a burden. I feel really privileged.

795
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:12,719
Speaker 1: I feel really, you know, lucky to have gotten to

796
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 1: to tell the story at all. And I feel so

797
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 1: so grateful whenever I hear, especially from like fellow adoptees,

798
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 1: that the book meant something to them, you know, but

799
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:25,439
Speaker 1: I I appreciate that that. I truly I don't really

800
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 1: think of myself as like a spokes person any more

801
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 1: than like every single one of us who ever talks

802
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 1: about it in any public way is turned into a

803
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 1: kind of ambassador for for the experience. Like you know,

804
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 1: as you mentioned yourself, if people know they're going to ask,

805
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 1: and like, like I wrote about in the book, I

806
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:48,360
Speaker 1: was only like twenty two and these prospective adoptive parents

807
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:50,920
Speaker 1: are asking me, like, should we adopt? Is it going

808
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:53,320
Speaker 1: to be? Okay? You know it didn't. I hadn't written

809
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:55,839
Speaker 1: a book yet, I hadn't written anything about adoption, but

810
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:58,719
Speaker 1: like I was still in that position. So and we

811
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:02,879
Speaker 1: all kind of share that just by having this experience. Yeah,

812
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 1: I will say, yeah, my well not my first, but

813
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:07,319
Speaker 1: one of the experiences that I remember clearly was in

814
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:09,760
Speaker 1: college when I was asked to talk to a family

815
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 1: who were considering it. So I was like, okay, what um.

816
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:17,919
Speaker 1: And of course that's before I realized all the things

817
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 1: that I need to figure out my own self. And

818
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 1: then living in a world where I was a social

819
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 1: worker and I saw the impact of foster care well

820
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 1: as um, some of the faulty systems that happened within

821
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 1: foster care and adoption. But yeah, that's kind of an

822
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:33,800
Speaker 1: interesting thing. Or you become like, oh, well, this is

823
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:37,040
Speaker 1: your life, so that means you know everything correct. Yeah,

824
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:38,759
Speaker 1: I mean when they started with us from such a

825
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 1: young age, though, they do as soon as people start

826
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 1: to notice you look different from your parents. Like, if anything,

827
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:47,239
Speaker 1: I got fewer questions in college because my parents were

828
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:50,359
Speaker 1: not around. But I mean I in a way like

829
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 1: we're sort of turned into these little spokespeople like at

830
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 1: a very young age, or transracial adoptees, because it's right there,

831
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:02,360
Speaker 1: like people really will just kind of like ask whatever.

832
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 1: It's kind of that whole like ownership of you've let that,

833
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:08,239
Speaker 1: you've put it out there, so therefore now we can

834
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:12,799
Speaker 1: ask you whatever we want. The type of level. Yeah, yeah,

835
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:14,839
Speaker 1: it has occurred to me too, like if people aren't

836
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 1: really curious, maybe if they read my book, they will

837
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 1: not send the next eight year old. Yeah. A few

838
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:23,400
Speaker 1: of the questions I've heard in interviews, I'm like, did

839
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:26,719
Speaker 1: you not read her book? Because she kind already inserting

840
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,799
Speaker 1: people are busy, they can't read everything we just talked

841
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 1: on this time, but not actually read the book so

842
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:35,760
Speaker 1: here you Go, which I'm sure it has happened many times,

843
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:38,359
Speaker 1: but yeah, also I did want to ask um kind

844
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:40,640
Speaker 1: of in reference to the book you talk about is

845
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:43,680
Speaker 1: saying where you first meet your sister Cindy, and we

846
00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 1: talked about shopping and cooking food and making recipes. One

847
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 1: of the things for me as an actual person who

848
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:52,440
Speaker 1: lived in Korea until I was six um six seven,

849
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 1: and like, I have a lot of memories about food.

850
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 1: And I know that's not necessarily your story, but kind

851
00:43:58,200 --> 00:43:59,920
Speaker 1: of like it seemed like you had a moment of

852
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:03,279
Speaker 1: bonding with your sister talking about food. Do you now

853
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 1: have a favorite Korean dish or do something that YouTube

854
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 1: talk about or make together or need that? And that's

855
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:12,719
Speaker 1: a weird question. I love food. No, it's okay, I

856
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 1: have to think about it. It's hard to pick a favorite.

857
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:17,680
Speaker 1: I've liked every Korean dish I've ever tried, and especially

858
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 1: my sister's because it's like home cooking and she made

859
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:23,839
Speaker 1: it for me. That sounds amazing. She makes like very

860
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 1: good everything. I don't know, I'm trying to think. I

861
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 1: don't know if I have like a clear favorite, but

862
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:31,440
Speaker 1: like every time I eat Korean food, even if it's

863
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:33,279
Speaker 1: just at a restaurant, it reminds me of her and

864
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:36,279
Speaker 1: it's very comforting and like it's not the same as

865
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:38,239
Speaker 1: like growing up in a Korean family where I ate

866
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:40,680
Speaker 1: it all the time, learned how to prepare it myself,

867
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:45,279
Speaker 1: like it always there's a strong childhood association, but it

868
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:47,840
Speaker 1: is like a very strong association with her, And we

869
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 1: still go to like the closest Asian grocery whenever we're together,

870
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 1: which like sadly hasn't been for a while, um, but

871
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:56,879
Speaker 1: like we'll always do at least one day where there's

872
00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:00,200
Speaker 1: a big shop and then like a big dinner make

873
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:02,800
Speaker 1: creon food for me. Like the day that my book published,

874
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:05,800
Speaker 1: I was I was staying with her in Portland and

875
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:09,279
Speaker 1: I was like, this is like amazing. I don't know,

876
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:12,040
Speaker 1: so I don't think it's like the same as it

877
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 1: is like for a lot of other people, but I do.

878
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 1: I do really associate it with like her and with family,

879
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 1: just like not quite with like childhood or home. Yeah,

880
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:23,839
Speaker 1: it's like so different, but you're making new memories, which

881
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 1: is amazing. We do have more of this conversation for you,

882
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 1: but first we have one more quick break for word

883
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:45,799
Speaker 1: from our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you sponsor. Let's

884
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 1: get back into it. Then you said you have two children,

885
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:51,720
Speaker 1: now if you kind of put that in their world

886
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:54,040
Speaker 1: as well, like bringing that kind of culture to them.

887
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:56,000
Speaker 1: I know you had referenced your daughter wanting to learn

888
00:45:56,040 --> 00:46:00,120
Speaker 1: Korean um and trying to become more part of that culture.

889
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:03,839
Speaker 1: Has that been a big part of their growing up?

890
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:06,840
Speaker 1: I guess yeah, it hasn't been as big as I

891
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:08,919
Speaker 1: would have liked it to be. Honestly, I think it's

892
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 1: just hard, like being adopted up. I feel like I

893
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 1: was always starting from like so far behind that it's

894
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:17,400
Speaker 1: like just it's not like I have like a goal

895
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:19,960
Speaker 1: of like pete Korean that like when I get there,

896
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:25,080
Speaker 1: I'll just feels right, Like I think I'll always feel

897
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 1: just a little bit shaky in the identity, and it

898
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:29,759
Speaker 1: does it like it is harder to pass on just

899
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:34,360
Speaker 1: because of that like total cultural separation. I mean that said,

900
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:37,120
Speaker 1: like I do enjoy times when my daughter and I

901
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:40,920
Speaker 1: will like you know, practice Korean or like make we'll

902
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:43,239
Speaker 1: try to make food together, Like I'm not very good

903
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:45,440
Speaker 1: at it, but you know, like there are and she

904
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 1: really likes and she also likes cooking with my sister,

905
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:50,000
Speaker 1: so like when my sister is here, like it's it's

906
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:53,279
Speaker 1: great to have someone who knows what they're doing. Um,

907
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 1: I mean, it is a part of their heritage and

908
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:57,400
Speaker 1: there I think they're very proud of it, you know.

909
00:46:58,000 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 1: And when I think about like what it means for

910
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 1: them to have connections to other parts of their culture,

911
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:04,720
Speaker 1: I mean, in a way, they're more connected to Korean

912
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:08,120
Speaker 1: and I guess maybe like the Lebanese part of their

913
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:12,120
Speaker 1: culture because of things like food, which is so I

914
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:14,920
Speaker 1: mean not that you can reduce a culture to its food,

915
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:18,239
Speaker 1: but it's just so, I mean, it's so wonderful to share,

916
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:23,359
Speaker 1: to pass on impact. You can hold onto that after

917
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:26,120
Speaker 1: you've lost so many other things. I think, like they

918
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:30,440
Speaker 1: do identify with that, and I know my older daughter, especially,

919
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 1: like is much more aware of things, strongly identifies as

920
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:36,239
Speaker 1: like you know, as Asian and American, as Korean, as

921
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 1: not white. But I don't know, I think they're their

922
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 1: understandings are definitely still evolving, and I try not to

923
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 1: speak too much about their personal like how they identify.

924
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:47,759
Speaker 1: I mean, that's their story to tell, but I do think,

925
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 1: I mean, I know it's like part of their life,

926
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:52,520
Speaker 1: and probably more so that it would have been like

927
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:55,919
Speaker 1: if I hadn't searched, and so in that sense, it's

928
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:59,160
Speaker 1: not like mission accomplished. It's just like, you know, that's

929
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:01,759
Speaker 1: like one more thing I think, think about. And they

930
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:04,000
Speaker 1: have these people in their lives to like my sister,

931
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:06,920
Speaker 1: like their cousin, um, you know, who they wouldn't have

932
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 1: had otherwise, and that's you know, those relationships are important

933
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:14,799
Speaker 1: for so many reasons. I love that. But yeah, you

934
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 1: did say something about identity, and actually I just posted

935
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:21,120
Speaker 1: recently on my own Twitter, I'm so cool. I'm not

936
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:23,719
Speaker 1: m about the fact that when I was as I'm

937
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:26,160
Speaker 1: reading your book, I'm having to unravel a lot, not

938
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:28,560
Speaker 1: just with the book, but just my whole life in

939
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 1: trying to figure out my identity again since honestly, even

940
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 1: though beforehand, yes, racism is always there, I've always known

941
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:37,319
Speaker 1: I'm a different race. I'm always known that I've been

942
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:40,000
Speaker 1: the only white kid, um not that's what I've had again,

943
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:43,919
Speaker 1: only Asian kids in a very white community, only person

944
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:46,360
Speaker 1: of color in a very white community. As well, growing

945
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:49,520
Speaker 1: up um and understanding that I had a lot of

946
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:51,920
Speaker 1: things to deal with and fighting so hard as a

947
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:55,799
Speaker 1: child to fit in and assimilate that I had to

948
00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:58,680
Speaker 1: almost and it wasn't because of anybody else other than

949
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:01,799
Speaker 1: my own insecurity is like hating myself for being a

950
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:04,800
Speaker 1: person of color, for being a girl that was not wanted,

951
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 1: you know, in this time frame or in this culture,

952
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:10,399
Speaker 1: and then trying to grow up and trying to figure

953
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 1: out which place do I sit, which way do I go?

954
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 1: You know. And one of the things that I've had

955
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:18,000
Speaker 1: this conversation and someone said to me, You're like, wow,

956
00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:20,040
Speaker 1: it's like a double imposter syndrome, and just she I'm

957
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 1: like what she's like, Not only are you trying to

958
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:25,560
Speaker 1: prove that your Asian and you don't know if your

959
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:28,560
Speaker 1: Asian community will accept you, you're also trying to prove

960
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:31,200
Speaker 1: you're not Asian to Asian for the white community at

961
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:33,640
Speaker 1: one point in time, so they'll you know that model

962
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:39,919
Speaker 1: minority can be a part of your identity, such my identity, UM.

963
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:43,799
Speaker 1: So on that. Have you ever had that experience as well,

964
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:47,560
Speaker 1: like trying to figure out and how have you gone

965
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 1: through it or have you been able to go and

966
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:52,400
Speaker 1: pass that? Yeah, I don't know if there's any getting pasted,

967
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:54,760
Speaker 1: which I hope there's not like real discouraging to people.

968
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:57,240
Speaker 1: But like by that, I just mean like it'll always

969
00:49:57,239 --> 00:49:59,200
Speaker 1: be part of your experience, even if like you get

970
00:49:59,239 --> 00:50:02,080
Speaker 1: to a point where I don't know you've done the

971
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:03,879
Speaker 1: work or you're at peace with it, or like you've

972
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:08,680
Speaker 1: moved beyond trying to like appease any other like individual

973
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:11,000
Speaker 1: or a group of people. I just think, like you

974
00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:14,319
Speaker 1: carry that with you, like that memory, and I think

975
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:16,160
Speaker 1: it's so hard to see when you're in the midst

976
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:18,440
Speaker 1: of it. Like I probably if I were still living

977
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:21,279
Speaker 1: in my very white hometown, I don't know how much

978
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:24,239
Speaker 1: harder it would have been to do this unpacking to

979
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:25,839
Speaker 1: figure it out. I don't know if I ever would

980
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:28,600
Speaker 1: have been able to, because like the white by default

981
00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:31,120
Speaker 1: framework was just I mean, that was just like my

982
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:33,919
Speaker 1: day to day, Like I had to be removed from

983
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:36,560
Speaker 1: it and experienced something else to like look back and

984
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 1: even begin to like unpack the impact and to think

985
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 1: about like ways like the scars I carried, the ways

986
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:46,400
Speaker 1: it was like you know, harmful, um, you know, the

987
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:49,120
Speaker 1: things that were often nobody's fault, but just like a

988
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:52,279
Speaker 1: way of how I experienced the world because I was

989
00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 1: the only one for so many years. I definitely I've

990
00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:58,440
Speaker 1: said before, I think that to some people trying to

991
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 1: action adoptees, and let's be honest, is an American adoptees

992
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:03,160
Speaker 1: because of the model minority myth, I think in some

993
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:05,640
Speaker 1: ways we are like to some white people like the

994
00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:09,520
Speaker 1: ultimate and like accessibility in terms of people of color, like,

995
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 1: but then I mean, like we're just so easily if

996
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:14,000
Speaker 1: they can relate to anybody, they can relate to us

997
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:17,920
Speaker 1: because you know, because model minority, because we grow up

998
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:20,840
Speaker 1: in white families, Like we're socialized in these ways because

999
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:24,759
Speaker 1: like because there is a lot of assimilation at work, um,

1000
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:26,960
Speaker 1: and you've got that proximity to whiteness, which is not

1001
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:30,239
Speaker 1: the same as having white privilege ourselves, but like there

1002
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:33,120
Speaker 1: is definitely like some and I've never really succeeded in

1003
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:35,399
Speaker 1: figuring it out for myself, but there is like some

1004
00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:40,200
Speaker 1: associated privilege, like in just in terms of the proximity

1005
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:43,160
Speaker 1: to whiteness and like having that comfort. I mean the

1006
00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:45,839
Speaker 1: flip side is it can also like make you really

1007
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:49,839
Speaker 1: unsure of yourself as like a Korean or Asian American, right,

1008
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:52,840
Speaker 1: And I've there were definitely like years really not so

1009
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:55,279
Speaker 1: much now, but like you know, I can think of

1010
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:57,520
Speaker 1: years where like an all white room would have felt

1011
00:51:57,560 --> 00:51:59,600
Speaker 1: like way more comfortable to me, say it, than like

1012
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:02,799
Speaker 1: an Asian American room. And you know, Goden not that

1013
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:04,040
Speaker 1: those are the only two races, but you know what

1014
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:07,280
Speaker 1: I'm saying, Like, for the purposes of my upbringing and identity,

1015
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:09,320
Speaker 1: like those are the two things I was caught between.

1016
00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:11,400
Speaker 1: And there are many years where like I would have

1017
00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:14,439
Speaker 1: not wanted to be white even but like that room

1018
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:16,480
Speaker 1: would have felt more comfortable, Like I would have felt

1019
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:19,920
Speaker 1: like I knew how to handle myself. So this is

1020
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:22,680
Speaker 1: a very long winded way of saying, Like I think

1021
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:27,200
Speaker 1: it's just ongoing, like um, the work of like processing

1022
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:29,440
Speaker 1: and dealing with that and thinking about what it means

1023
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:33,759
Speaker 1: and you know, like figuring out to like because we're

1024
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:35,319
Speaker 1: not the only people in the room, like what does

1025
00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:38,040
Speaker 1: solidarity look like? Like what is required of us? Like

1026
00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:41,520
Speaker 1: given our positioning and our proximity to whiteness, and like

1027
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:43,839
Speaker 1: whatever comfort we have or don't have with it, Like

1028
00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:46,720
Speaker 1: I mean that's like it's like taking it a step further.

1029
00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:49,560
Speaker 1: But before you can even think about like what what

1030
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:51,960
Speaker 1: solidity looks like as like an adopted Asian person in

1031
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:54,319
Speaker 1: this country. You know, you have to think you have

1032
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:57,920
Speaker 1: to have already done the work of like examining how

1033
00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:02,080
Speaker 1: how that affected you and your your worldview and your

1034
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:05,000
Speaker 1: biases and all of that. Yeah, it's fascinating and it's

1035
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:07,960
Speaker 1: all really hard. It is. It is so many things.

1036
00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:11,800
Speaker 1: Obviously I've made this on my show right now that

1037
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:14,000
Speaker 1: I'm asking all of the questions and I'm like, let

1038
00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:16,600
Speaker 1: me ask you this, Um, But I did have one

1039
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:19,360
Speaker 1: more and then, Annie, I promise I'm done, because I

1040
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:22,279
Speaker 1: do want to come back to the bond between you

1041
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:26,000
Speaker 1: and your sister and just how important it is that

1042
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:28,759
Speaker 1: we are able to see that type of bond, not

1043
00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:33,280
Speaker 1: only the fact that you guys reconnected in what seemed

1044
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:36,880
Speaker 1: like an impossible moment to connect and finding a kinship

1045
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:39,800
Speaker 1: in such a closeness. Um, just can you talk about

1046
00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:42,879
Speaker 1: your relationship and how it has obviously there's a lot

1047
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:48,200
Speaker 1: of healing in that and what that looked like for you. Yeah.

1048
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:50,799
Speaker 1: I mean, I think, like a lot of adoptees, when

1049
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:53,200
Speaker 1: I used to imagine, like maybe I'll search for my

1050
00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:56,520
Speaker 1: birth family someday, maybe we'll connect, I was always picturing

1051
00:53:56,560 --> 00:53:59,120
Speaker 1: like my birth parents. I mean I was I've also

1052
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:01,279
Speaker 1: always wanted to blink, so like it's kind of weird

1053
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:03,319
Speaker 1: in a way. I didn't think about birth siblings as

1054
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:06,440
Speaker 1: much as like a real possibility, but I didn't, Like

1055
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:09,399
Speaker 1: I was just so focused on like you know, I mean,

1056
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:11,560
Speaker 1: they're literally the people who made you, so I was.

1057
00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:14,000
Speaker 1: I guess I was sort of focused on that. But

1058
00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:17,440
Speaker 1: the reunion with my sister was just so unexpected in

1059
00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:19,920
Speaker 1: so many ways, Like it was not I thought of

1060
00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:22,240
Speaker 1: it as like an unlooked for gift, Like it really

1061
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:25,480
Speaker 1: it was such a surprise to me that like that

1062
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:28,800
Speaker 1: this would be i don't know, the greatest, the greatest

1063
00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:31,040
Speaker 1: thing that really came out of that whole experience for

1064
00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:33,720
Speaker 1: both of us, you know. And in terms of healing,

1065
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:36,919
Speaker 1: like I also had always thought of it as kind

1066
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:40,120
Speaker 1: of like maybe if there was any healing at all,

1067
00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:42,680
Speaker 1: it would be like in me finding answers to questions

1068
00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:45,680
Speaker 1: I'd always had, and in my birth parents like knowing

1069
00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:48,239
Speaker 1: that I was okay, and like maybe not having to

1070
00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:51,759
Speaker 1: like regret their choice if they had ever regretted it.

1071
00:54:52,239 --> 00:54:53,759
Speaker 1: I mean, this is also, I now know, like a

1072
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:56,480
Speaker 1: really simplistic way of looking at it, but like that's

1073
00:54:56,480 --> 00:54:58,920
Speaker 1: what I was thinking, Like if we're able to offer

1074
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:01,920
Speaker 1: each other any closure or healing at all, Like surely

1075
00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:04,440
Speaker 1: that's what it will be. I had not thought again,

1076
00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:08,040
Speaker 1: like what like what siblings could like need, um if

1077
00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:11,000
Speaker 1: they were in the picture. Um, Like I wouldn't presume

1078
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:13,200
Speaker 1: to say, like I've healed my sister, and it's it's

1079
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:15,520
Speaker 1: even like maybe a little too reductive to say she's

1080
00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:18,040
Speaker 1: healed me. But like we both really needed each other,

1081
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:21,960
Speaker 1: Like we both really needed for various reasons, like that

1082
00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:25,800
Speaker 1: kind of family connection that kind of like like support

1083
00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:30,240
Speaker 1: uh and mutual aid um, just like knowing that someone

1084
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:31,920
Speaker 1: was going to be in your corner no matter what,

1085
00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:34,239
Speaker 1: Like I get lost in cliche is sometimes when I

1086
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:36,520
Speaker 1: talk about it. But like I mean, I think we

1087
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:40,880
Speaker 1: both needed that that type of relationship, And it wouldn't

1088
00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:42,440
Speaker 1: have occurred to me that I could provide that for

1089
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:46,240
Speaker 1: somebody like I I don't know. I just I figured,

1090
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 1: like if I had siblings, they would have been fine

1091
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:50,360
Speaker 1: without me, like they've been without me their whole lives

1092
00:55:50,719 --> 00:55:53,080
Speaker 1: like that. In Cindy's case, she had no idea I

1093
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:57,359
Speaker 1: was alive, um, And so like I don't know. At

1094
00:55:57,400 --> 00:55:59,480
Speaker 1: so many points, I was like, are you sure, Like

1095
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:02,040
Speaker 1: why like why are you wasting time with me? Like

1096
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:04,480
Speaker 1: in a way, because like what I didn't know what

1097
00:56:04,560 --> 00:56:07,359
Speaker 1: I had to really offer, um, And it was really

1098
00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:10,000
Speaker 1: only after like meeting her in person and talking about

1099
00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:13,040
Speaker 1: like what our families and our upbringings were like, and

1100
00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:16,560
Speaker 1: like thinking about her life. Then you know, just like

1101
00:56:17,360 --> 00:56:19,759
Speaker 1: I started to wonder like if there was something that

1102
00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:23,600
Speaker 1: she needed that I could provide to So I don't know,

1103
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:26,800
Speaker 1: I mean that's how it started. We're several years on now,

1104
00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:30,040
Speaker 1: let's see, like at least twelve years, and we're still

1105
00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:32,640
Speaker 1: really close. I missed her a lot. I don't know

1106
00:56:32,640 --> 00:56:34,200
Speaker 1: what I'm going to get to see her because she

1107
00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:37,920
Speaker 1: lives across the country. Um. But you know, up until

1108
00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:40,520
Speaker 1: like this year, we tended to see each other at

1109
00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:43,000
Speaker 1: least once. Sometimes we were lucky, and like it was

1110
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:45,480
Speaker 1: twice a year. I don't know how to even express

1111
00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:47,840
Speaker 1: it in words. Sometimes, like I guess I'm not that

1112
00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:51,000
Speaker 1: good at a writer, but like she really is in

1113
00:56:51,120 --> 00:56:54,960
Speaker 1: so many ways, just like this steadfast um presence, and

1114
00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:58,160
Speaker 1: like she's so strong and she's so compassionate. She really

1115
00:56:58,239 --> 00:57:01,839
Speaker 1: is like like my hear in a lot of ways. Um,

1116
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:04,520
Speaker 1: So I just feel really fortunate that like this thing

1117
00:57:04,560 --> 00:57:06,440
Speaker 1: that I never would have expected to come out of

1118
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:08,759
Speaker 1: my search is what what came out of it. And

1119
00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:11,040
Speaker 1: not just for me, but again like for my kids,

1120
00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:13,560
Speaker 1: you know, she's just there, you know, she's just there,

1121
00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:16,000
Speaker 1: arent Cindy, like they have always known her. They don't

1122
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:20,480
Speaker 1: remember not knowing her. And like actually, like I don't know,

1123
00:57:20,520 --> 00:57:23,720
Speaker 1: both for both my niece and my kids, Like I

1124
00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:26,840
Speaker 1: think they like to ask questions and hear about the

1125
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:30,080
Speaker 1: story again because like I mean, for them, it's just

1126
00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:32,120
Speaker 1: the way it is. It's always been this way. They've

1127
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:34,440
Speaker 1: always had each other and like us in their lives.

1128
00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:36,800
Speaker 1: But like I think it's interesting to them how like

1129
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:39,080
Speaker 1: it wasn't necessarily going to be that way, Like if

1130
00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:42,880
Speaker 1: we hadn't both taken steps to kind of put our family,

1131
00:57:43,480 --> 00:57:45,720
Speaker 1: our family back together in this way, like you know,

1132
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:48,840
Speaker 1: they wouldn't know each other. So I don't know, I

1133
00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:52,240
Speaker 1: don't know, Like I I'm definitely rambling now. I love

1134
00:57:52,280 --> 00:57:57,520
Speaker 1: it feels so big. Yeah, I just feel really again,

1135
00:57:57,600 --> 00:58:01,200
Speaker 1: just really really um I'm just really thankful that like

1136
00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:04,160
Speaker 1: that's what happened, because it was not something I ever

1137
00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:06,600
Speaker 1: would have you know, I would have expected, And I

1138
00:58:06,680 --> 00:58:09,360
Speaker 1: love that you have a support system and through all

1139
00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:12,880
Speaker 1: of this became such a beautiful story of bonding. Um,

1140
00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:14,920
Speaker 1: it was beautiful. Like I said, it was written so

1141
00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:18,160
Speaker 1: well that I was just like, that's fantastic. It always

1142
00:58:18,200 --> 00:58:22,400
Speaker 1: just like this is a fiction. Thank you, I mean,

1143
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:24,760
Speaker 1: and thank you for reading it. I also I am

1144
00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:28,120
Speaker 1: conscious of how, like you know, I sometimes feel like

1145
00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:31,560
Speaker 1: adoption stories hit really close to the bone for me. Um,

1146
00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:33,600
Speaker 1: it's interesting. I kind of struggle more with it sometimes

1147
00:58:33,600 --> 00:58:35,960
Speaker 1: in fiction, like where it's like a plot device. I

1148
00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:38,760
Speaker 1: sometimes do better if it's nonfiction. But anyway, like I

1149
00:58:39,240 --> 00:58:41,880
Speaker 1: appreciate you spending time with it because I just feel

1150
00:58:41,880 --> 00:58:45,800
Speaker 1: like there's an extra emotional investment. Maybe maybe there's an

1151
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:48,880
Speaker 1: extra reward too with if you identify with any part

1152
00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:51,160
Speaker 1: of it. Did I felt seen and I loved that

1153
00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:54,000
Speaker 1: even though the story was different, there were still like

1154
00:58:54,080 --> 00:58:56,360
Speaker 1: parts of this it was like yes and and you.

1155
00:58:58,240 --> 00:59:00,800
Speaker 1: For the lack of better words, like not necessarily a

1156
00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:04,360
Speaker 1: happy ending, but things that made sense and coming together

1157
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:06,760
Speaker 1: for you does feel somewhat fulfilling for me as a

1158
00:59:06,800 --> 00:59:11,520
Speaker 1: person who doesn't have that open apportioned to my or

1159
00:59:11,840 --> 00:59:14,640
Speaker 1: that insight to that half of my life. So it's

1160
00:59:14,680 --> 00:59:17,320
Speaker 1: really nice to see, as well as being able to

1161
00:59:17,640 --> 00:59:20,959
Speaker 1: again feel represented. Like I told Annie a while ago,

1162
00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:23,280
Speaker 1: one of the only books that I've ever been able

1163
00:59:23,320 --> 00:59:25,600
Speaker 1: to read that had anything to do with anything about

1164
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:28,200
Speaker 1: me outside of like having at least a Chinese person

1165
00:59:28,240 --> 00:59:31,000
Speaker 1: in the Babysitters Club was just as long as We're

1166
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:36,120
Speaker 1: Together by Judy Blue and adopted Yes Asian girl, um.

1167
00:59:36,200 --> 00:59:39,240
Speaker 1: And it made me feel like, oh, wow, well, look

1168
00:59:39,560 --> 00:59:43,000
Speaker 1: there's someone else who they're treating as a normal child

1169
00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:46,960
Speaker 1: having you know, issues as an adolescent. This is beautiful.

1170
00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:50,480
Speaker 1: So to see more and more, it's so important and

1171
00:59:50,520 --> 00:59:53,040
Speaker 1: it's so wonderful to see. And yeah, I'm not gonna

1172
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:54,840
Speaker 1: lie I was. I was hesitant because I was afraid

1173
00:59:54,880 --> 00:59:56,880
Speaker 1: of the things that it may bring out of me.

1174
00:59:56,880 --> 00:59:58,720
Speaker 1: And I've had to work out so much as a

1175
00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:02,080
Speaker 1: social worker in this field, trying to advocate for kids

1176
01:00:02,560 --> 01:00:06,480
Speaker 1: who are in foster care and such. But seeing this story, um,

1177
01:00:06,520 --> 01:00:10,680
Speaker 1: not only because yes, transractional adoption is is different from

1178
01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:14,680
Speaker 1: the adoption within the US, and we know this um

1179
01:00:14,920 --> 01:00:17,720
Speaker 1: not just within the US, but within the cultures and

1180
01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:21,120
Speaker 1: what it looks like and again what it has this

1181
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:24,600
Speaker 1: whole fetish size fairy tale behind it, and that's what

1182
01:00:24,640 --> 01:00:26,560
Speaker 1: you see his representations. I'm like, oh god, what's wrong

1183
01:00:26,600 --> 01:00:30,680
Speaker 1: with me if I'm not that perfect story that came

1184
01:00:30,720 --> 01:00:33,360
Speaker 1: out like that. But to see something that's like, yeah,

1185
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:35,520
Speaker 1: this is the reality. It's not all bad, it's not

1186
01:00:35,600 --> 01:00:37,760
Speaker 1: all great, and this is how it became. It was

1187
01:00:37,800 --> 01:00:42,000
Speaker 1: a beautiful life to see that wasn't mine. That made sense.

1188
01:00:42,120 --> 01:00:45,160
Speaker 1: So thank you for writing, and thank you for coming on.

1189
01:00:45,240 --> 01:00:47,760
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna lie again. I've been so excited and

1190
01:00:47,840 --> 01:00:55,200
Speaker 1: kind of nervous. I really appreciate the invitation. Yeah, and

1191
01:00:55,240 --> 01:01:04,840
Speaker 1: thank you m Annie. Sorry, no drowning moment. I'm so sorry. No,

1192
01:01:05,120 --> 01:01:07,680
Speaker 1: this is so great. This is so great, and you

1193
01:01:07,680 --> 01:01:10,480
Speaker 1: you touched on like all of the things I read. Yeah,

1194
01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:13,520
Speaker 1: we were kind of about outline on how we were

1195
01:01:13,560 --> 01:01:19,000
Speaker 1: going to talk about the book. This is gonna be perfect. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1196
01:01:19,240 --> 01:01:22,240
Speaker 1: I guess I would just like to say that as

1197
01:01:22,320 --> 01:01:24,920
Speaker 1: someone who does right, I've never considered writing a memoir.

1198
01:01:25,440 --> 01:01:28,320
Speaker 1: But as a podcaster, we sometimes experienced that sort of

1199
01:01:28,360 --> 01:01:31,160
Speaker 1: vulnerability of people know a lot about us, but we

1200
01:01:31,240 --> 01:01:34,360
Speaker 1: don't know them, and so I almost feel a little strange.

1201
01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:37,280
Speaker 1: Asking me a personal questions about your life even though

1202
01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:40,840
Speaker 1: you w wrote the book M but I did appreciate,

1203
01:01:42,160 --> 01:01:46,360
Speaker 1: um how you painted the complexity of family and you

1204
01:01:46,440 --> 01:01:50,320
Speaker 1: talked about um like the origin stories we often tell

1205
01:01:50,360 --> 01:01:55,680
Speaker 1: ourselves and then questioning that and what that meant for you. Um,

1206
01:01:55,720 --> 01:02:00,600
Speaker 1: because I do think that even um, my dad wasn't adopted,

1207
01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:04,320
Speaker 1: but he wasn't raised by his parents, He wasn't officially adopted.

1208
01:02:04,760 --> 01:02:06,760
Speaker 1: And I didn't even know who my real grandparents were

1209
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:11,920
Speaker 1: untild well, I thought my other grandparents that they weren't

1210
01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:13,360
Speaker 1: related to me and I didn't know it. But like

1211
01:02:13,400 --> 01:02:17,840
Speaker 1: they are, these stories we tell and having to come

1212
01:02:17,840 --> 01:02:20,240
Speaker 1: to terms of just how complicated your feelings can be

1213
01:02:20,280 --> 01:02:25,120
Speaker 1: with family and why you tell them. Um. So I

1214
01:02:25,200 --> 01:02:30,200
Speaker 1: was it was lovely to see that nuance and complexity expressed. Uh.

1215
01:02:30,240 --> 01:02:32,960
Speaker 1: And I don't know if there's any piece of that

1216
01:02:32,960 --> 01:02:34,960
Speaker 1: that you feel like you can speak to or you

1217
01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:37,320
Speaker 1: want to expound on in terms of like writing like

1218
01:02:37,360 --> 01:02:41,640
Speaker 1: a personal story for like public consumption. You mean, yeah,

1219
01:02:41,680 --> 01:02:45,680
Speaker 1: And just like the kind of origin stories we tell ourselves,

1220
01:02:46,760 --> 01:02:49,560
Speaker 1: I'm obsessed with those, like I, UM, I don't know.

1221
01:02:49,640 --> 01:02:51,640
Speaker 1: We we can all think about those stories and our

1222
01:02:51,680 --> 01:02:54,200
Speaker 1: families that have been told so many times it's like

1223
01:02:54,280 --> 01:02:56,000
Speaker 1: you might have you probably have like no memory of

1224
01:02:56,000 --> 01:02:58,400
Speaker 1: it yourself, like probably many of them took place before

1225
01:02:58,440 --> 01:03:00,480
Speaker 1: you were born, but you're just like, yeah, that was

1226
01:03:00,520 --> 01:03:03,480
Speaker 1: like established fact, and like like there's just no questioning

1227
01:03:03,520 --> 01:03:07,040
Speaker 1: that stuff is like bedrock. Um. And I when I

1228
01:03:07,040 --> 01:03:08,680
Speaker 1: was writing the book, I was thinking about how like

1229
01:03:08,840 --> 01:03:11,960
Speaker 1: questioning that can feel like questioning someone's religion, you know,

1230
01:03:12,080 --> 01:03:14,479
Speaker 1: or like they're very just it's such a deeply held

1231
01:03:14,520 --> 01:03:17,440
Speaker 1: personal belief. And yet that I think if you're going

1232
01:03:17,440 --> 01:03:20,680
Speaker 1: to think about adoption or like any family topic with

1233
01:03:20,800 --> 01:03:23,320
Speaker 1: real complexity, you have to build in a little bit

1234
01:03:23,320 --> 01:03:26,760
Speaker 1: of space for questioning those like like the family lore,

1235
01:03:26,920 --> 01:03:29,440
Speaker 1: and for like thinking about the people who aren't there

1236
01:03:29,520 --> 01:03:32,280
Speaker 1: or whose voices maybe just aren't the loudest. But that's

1237
01:03:32,320 --> 01:03:34,960
Speaker 1: the other thing I've noticed in families, like without naming names,

1238
01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:37,920
Speaker 1: like I'm sure we can all think of people in

1239
01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:40,240
Speaker 1: the family who like it's sort of like their take

1240
01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:43,720
Speaker 1: on things ends up being the dominant take or like

1241
01:03:43,760 --> 01:03:45,760
Speaker 1: the people whose opinions are like kind of the loudest

1242
01:03:45,800 --> 01:03:48,600
Speaker 1: in the strongest, But that doesn't mean other people aren't

1243
01:03:48,640 --> 01:03:53,440
Speaker 1: having like wildly different experiences or might not have different opinions,

1244
01:03:53,520 --> 01:03:55,600
Speaker 1: and so I mean that's just like a factor in

1245
01:03:55,640 --> 01:03:58,920
Speaker 1: every family, whether or not adoptions involved, whether or not

1246
01:03:58,960 --> 01:04:01,800
Speaker 1: there's something like dramatic it, or whether there's estrangement. You know,

1247
01:04:01,880 --> 01:04:05,840
Speaker 1: there's always there's always other perspectives. So now I like

1248
01:04:05,920 --> 01:04:08,440
Speaker 1: to think about all that. Personally. I find origin stories

1249
01:04:08,480 --> 01:04:12,160
Speaker 1: fascinating because they are literally what make us, and like

1250
01:04:12,280 --> 01:04:14,400
Speaker 1: they form our world views in a lot of ways.

1251
01:04:14,560 --> 01:04:17,800
Speaker 1: And yet like so much of the like the biggest

1252
01:04:17,840 --> 01:04:20,320
Speaker 1: questions and like the hardest work and the most interesting

1253
01:04:20,360 --> 01:04:23,760
Speaker 1: writing also comes from like when you start to reconsider

1254
01:04:24,200 --> 01:04:26,720
Speaker 1: like those long held truths. I mean, I just I

1255
01:04:26,800 --> 01:04:30,400
Speaker 1: love that stuff, and so yeah, I mean I like

1256
01:04:30,480 --> 01:04:33,200
Speaker 1: to read it like beyond even beyond them more like

1257
01:04:34,000 --> 01:04:35,920
Speaker 1: it's sort of like themes I look for in general.

1258
01:04:36,440 --> 01:04:38,440
Speaker 1: I look for it in stories that I edit and publish.

1259
01:04:38,680 --> 01:04:41,080
Speaker 1: I just like I always love to see a writer

1260
01:04:41,280 --> 01:04:47,600
Speaker 1: asking those big questions are like challenging, like a dominant narrative. Yeah,

1261
01:04:47,680 --> 01:04:49,400
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's where a lot of the best,

1262
01:04:49,640 --> 01:04:54,240
Speaker 1: like the best stories wind up coming from. Annie Spine

1263
01:04:54,280 --> 01:04:58,280
Speaker 1: more notes for her fiction. I write other things and

1264
01:04:58,360 --> 01:05:02,480
Speaker 1: fan fiction. But I don't know, I don't believe you

1265
01:05:03,120 --> 01:05:05,120
Speaker 1: what's your fandom? Do you do you want me to

1266
01:05:05,320 --> 01:05:07,680
Speaker 1: You don't have to say no, no, no no. I

1267
01:05:07,840 --> 01:05:14,160
Speaker 1: write um primarily Star Wars original trilogy and Harry Potter. Yeah,

1268
01:05:14,920 --> 01:05:16,880
Speaker 1: and right now, the one I'm writing on right now

1269
01:05:16,960 --> 01:05:20,680
Speaker 1: is two hundred and fifty pages, okay, and all the

1270
01:05:20,800 --> 01:05:29,000
Speaker 1: stuff is so tragic. It is what I've discovered. She

1271
01:05:29,040 --> 01:05:30,640
Speaker 1: will always come up with, Oh my god, the things

1272
01:05:30,680 --> 01:05:32,959
Speaker 1: I've done to my characters. I'm so sad. I thought

1273
01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:37,800
Speaker 1: about it sometimes. I feel legitimate guilt. Sorry, keep going.

1274
01:05:37,840 --> 01:05:40,200
Speaker 1: I just wanted to push that in always telling people

1275
01:05:40,240 --> 01:05:46,080
Speaker 1: your hobbies. Thank you. I'm sure it's not without embarrassing me,

1276
01:05:46,480 --> 01:05:48,800
Speaker 1: not at all. I'm proud of what you do because

1277
01:05:48,840 --> 01:05:51,240
Speaker 1: I could not do it. I've written many of things,

1278
01:05:51,240 --> 01:05:53,320
Speaker 1: and they're all short stories because I'm like and I'm done.

1279
01:05:53,440 --> 01:05:56,960
Speaker 1: Short stories are so hard though, Like just the I'm like,

1280
01:05:57,000 --> 01:05:58,720
Speaker 1: how do you do it? How do you like create?

1281
01:05:59,520 --> 01:06:02,680
Speaker 1: I don't can't do beyond that because I'm like, I'm

1282
01:06:02,680 --> 01:06:05,560
Speaker 1: done now. It's such as I'm just like, how do

1283
01:06:05,600 --> 01:06:08,880
Speaker 1: you have the arc and the characterization and the setting,

1284
01:06:08,960 --> 01:06:11,120
Speaker 1: I mean, the basic building plots of the story in

1285
01:06:11,160 --> 01:06:14,160
Speaker 1: a very very small space, knowing you don't get anymore

1286
01:06:14,240 --> 01:06:18,200
Speaker 1: like that's it. I think that's actually magic. I feel

1287
01:06:18,200 --> 01:06:21,040
Speaker 1: like I know writer's best when I can get their

1288
01:06:21,040 --> 01:06:23,200
Speaker 1: short stories like that. I think that's why I love

1289
01:06:23,280 --> 01:06:25,880
Speaker 1: like Southern Gothic, because a lot of those writers start

1290
01:06:25,920 --> 01:06:29,040
Speaker 1: off with small essays. And I love that death because

1291
01:06:29,360 --> 01:06:31,320
Speaker 1: I like that mystery that it involts. Anyway, this has

1292
01:06:31,320 --> 01:06:34,600
Speaker 1: gone to it completely different. I'm sorry any questions that

1293
01:06:34,640 --> 01:06:37,360
Speaker 1: I just cut you off of. No, this relates a

1294
01:06:37,480 --> 01:06:40,320
Speaker 1: great segue. Um. Do you have any projects that you're

1295
01:06:40,320 --> 01:06:43,320
Speaker 1: working on that you're excited about? Oh gosh, I mean

1296
01:06:43,360 --> 01:06:45,880
Speaker 1: I'm always like working on like essays here and there.

1297
01:06:46,480 --> 01:06:50,960
Speaker 1: I've like started unfinished novels, and I have sold my

1298
01:06:51,040 --> 01:06:54,520
Speaker 1: second book, so I'm working on another work. It's I mean,

1299
01:06:54,560 --> 01:06:56,520
Speaker 1: I keep calling it like a memoir and essays. I

1300
01:06:56,520 --> 01:07:00,360
Speaker 1: think it'll feel I think it'll feel quite a written

1301
01:07:00,440 --> 01:07:04,000
Speaker 1: form than all. You can never know, but um, but yeah,

1302
01:07:04,080 --> 01:07:06,840
Speaker 1: it's it's it's going to be like essays revolving around

1303
01:07:06,880 --> 01:07:10,200
Speaker 1: like grief and class and my I mean, I actually

1304
01:07:10,200 --> 01:07:12,880
Speaker 1: sold it before my mother, my adopted mom passed away

1305
01:07:12,960 --> 01:07:16,320
Speaker 1: earlier this year, just three months ago. And it's strange

1306
01:07:16,360 --> 01:07:18,280
Speaker 1: to be writing about grief in the midst of this.

1307
01:07:19,000 --> 01:07:21,600
Speaker 1: This also, I wasn't actually anticipating when the books sold,

1308
01:07:21,920 --> 01:07:23,840
Speaker 1: but I mean, I think I have a lot of

1309
01:07:23,840 --> 01:07:27,120
Speaker 1: work to do before. I think it'll just take time. Um,

1310
01:07:27,240 --> 01:07:29,280
Speaker 1: but that is the next thing. It's been sold, so

1311
01:07:29,320 --> 01:07:32,520
Speaker 1: I do have to deliver it. Um. So yeah, it'll

1312
01:07:32,560 --> 01:07:36,200
Speaker 1: it'll be a while in coming. But that's very exciting

1313
01:07:36,600 --> 01:07:40,840
Speaker 1: um to read the book, not the process. Sorry, UM.

1314
01:07:40,840 --> 01:07:43,960
Speaker 1: And yeah you have. I've read a few essays have

1315
01:07:44,080 --> 01:07:48,640
Speaker 1: you as you were talking about um writing uh, doing

1316
01:07:48,680 --> 01:07:53,240
Speaker 1: grief and what would because I think people as you

1317
01:07:53,360 --> 01:07:55,880
Speaker 1: talk about it, it's cathartic for people as well as

1318
01:07:55,920 --> 01:07:59,040
Speaker 1: there's many writers who are going through some really tough times,

1319
01:07:59,040 --> 01:08:01,160
Speaker 1: whether it's a grief of a love more. Like you said,

1320
01:08:01,240 --> 01:08:05,480
Speaker 1: what is your advice on that? And how do you

1321
01:08:05,480 --> 01:08:08,080
Speaker 1: care for yourself? At the same time, Yeah, I feel

1322
01:08:08,120 --> 01:08:10,240
Speaker 1: much less qualified to give advice in this because I

1323
01:08:10,240 --> 01:08:13,120
Speaker 1: feel like I'm not It's honestly just been really hard

1324
01:08:14,120 --> 01:08:16,559
Speaker 1: because I don't have like with the first book, I

1325
01:08:16,600 --> 01:08:20,280
Speaker 1: had several years of removal from it, and this is

1326
01:08:20,320 --> 01:08:22,840
Speaker 1: all just really fresh and it's really raw, and in

1327
01:08:22,880 --> 01:08:25,639
Speaker 1: some ways like that means the emotions very easy to access,

1328
01:08:25,680 --> 01:08:28,080
Speaker 1: and in other ways it could just feel like a flood.

1329
01:08:28,160 --> 01:08:31,840
Speaker 1: Sometimes I can I find it seems very overwhelming. So

1330
01:08:31,920 --> 01:08:34,840
Speaker 1: like in terms of taking care of yourself, like I mean,

1331
01:08:34,880 --> 01:08:38,000
Speaker 1: I do, I give myself permission to take breaks, sometimes

1332
01:08:38,120 --> 01:08:41,240
Speaker 1: quite long ones. I recognized how much of this book

1333
01:08:41,240 --> 01:08:44,840
Speaker 1: will probably like take form what I'm not writing, so

1334
01:08:44,920 --> 01:08:46,640
Speaker 1: like when I when I do step back and go

1335
01:08:46,720 --> 01:08:49,800
Speaker 1: for a long walk, or like really think or look

1336
01:08:49,840 --> 01:08:53,559
Speaker 1: through photos or just like remember my parents. Um, like

1337
01:08:53,600 --> 01:08:55,800
Speaker 1: I think a lot of a lot of the work

1338
01:08:55,840 --> 01:08:59,240
Speaker 1: of this book will it'll have to be done like well,

1339
01:08:59,280 --> 01:09:01,320
Speaker 1: I'm not writing, which is which is not to say

1340
01:09:01,320 --> 01:09:04,200
Speaker 1: writing isn't still the job, because it's the job. But

1341
01:09:04,560 --> 01:09:06,880
Speaker 1: I'm learning as I get older, how much of writing

1342
01:09:07,000 --> 01:09:09,280
Speaker 1: is everything else that you do too, I mean, and

1343
01:09:09,320 --> 01:09:12,800
Speaker 1: specifically the time that you take just think and just

1344
01:09:12,920 --> 01:09:16,800
Speaker 1: be um and ask yourself questions and like you know,

1345
01:09:16,880 --> 01:09:19,920
Speaker 1: try to answer them. So much of that work is interior,

1346
01:09:20,400 --> 01:09:21,840
Speaker 1: you know, or you could actually do it with friends

1347
01:09:21,840 --> 01:09:24,599
Speaker 1: and family, but it's so like it takes place away

1348
01:09:24,600 --> 01:09:27,519
Speaker 1: from the computer screen and then hopefully you go back

1349
01:09:27,600 --> 01:09:29,680
Speaker 1: and you've got like a clearer vision and you've got

1350
01:09:29,680 --> 01:09:32,280
Speaker 1: more focus and you're feeling the punished and you can

1351
01:09:32,280 --> 01:09:35,320
Speaker 1: tackle like the next, the next thing. But it is

1352
01:09:35,320 --> 01:09:37,760
Speaker 1: it's a really different experience from writing the first book,

1353
01:09:37,760 --> 01:09:39,680
Speaker 1: and which was fast. I mean I wrote it in

1354
01:09:39,720 --> 01:09:42,240
Speaker 1: like ten eleven months. I think this will take longer

1355
01:09:42,280 --> 01:09:44,360
Speaker 1: and I think it will be harder. I joked about

1356
01:09:44,360 --> 01:09:46,439
Speaker 1: this on Twitter recently. I was like, I felt it

1357
01:09:46,479 --> 01:09:49,360
Speaker 1: really hard to revisit things I've written before, and like

1358
01:09:49,560 --> 01:09:51,960
Speaker 1: eventually I developed kind of a deep loathing for everything

1359
01:09:51,960 --> 01:09:54,000
Speaker 1: I wrote, like, let's say more than three years ago.

1360
01:09:54,400 --> 01:09:56,720
Speaker 1: So I'm not saying the book sex because buy the

1361
01:09:56,720 --> 01:09:58,280
Speaker 1: book and read it. But what I mean is like,

1362
01:09:59,240 --> 01:10:01,320
Speaker 1: as a writer, I do feel like I always have

1363
01:10:01,479 --> 01:10:04,040
Speaker 1: my best works ahead, Like I have to actually believe

1364
01:10:04,080 --> 01:10:07,439
Speaker 1: that in order to keep writing because it's hard. So

1365
01:10:07,640 --> 01:10:10,200
Speaker 1: um yeah, I mean I keep telling myself like, this

1366
01:10:10,240 --> 01:10:12,600
Speaker 1: is difficult, but like if you can do it, like

1367
01:10:12,640 --> 01:10:15,040
Speaker 1: I think it will mean something and I think, you know,

1368
01:10:15,360 --> 01:10:18,000
Speaker 1: I hope it can be. I hope it just builds

1369
01:10:18,040 --> 01:10:20,519
Speaker 1: on like what I've done. And again, you always just

1370
01:10:20,520 --> 01:10:24,000
Speaker 1: hope it means something to someone. Where can people find you?

1371
01:10:24,720 --> 01:10:29,439
Speaker 1: I'm at Nicole s J. Chump on both Twitter and Instagram. Yes,

1372
01:10:29,520 --> 01:10:32,200
Speaker 1: and that's how we found you online. Um, and yes

1373
01:10:32,280 --> 01:10:34,920
Speaker 1: you should also if you haven't already read her book

1374
01:10:34,960 --> 01:10:38,559
Speaker 1: all you can ever know. It's not just for adoptees, obviously.

1375
01:10:38,640 --> 01:10:44,639
Speaker 1: It is a beautiful story about relationships, love, finding yourself, childhood, children,

1376
01:10:44,800 --> 01:10:47,160
Speaker 1: all the things, all the good things in there. So

1377
01:10:47,360 --> 01:10:49,800
Speaker 1: I'm really thankful to you both for like reading the

1378
01:10:49,800 --> 01:10:52,600
Speaker 1: book and taking the time. It was my pleasure to

1379
01:10:52,640 --> 01:10:55,720
Speaker 1: be here. Thank you so much. And now you are

1380
01:10:55,760 --> 01:10:57,519
Speaker 1: also one of the people that I will call a

1381
01:10:57,560 --> 01:11:00,240
Speaker 1: close friend because this is what I do. I use

1382
01:11:00,320 --> 01:11:04,120
Speaker 1: the show to make friends with people that sorry checks out.

1383
01:11:04,240 --> 01:11:07,960
Speaker 1: I think that's fine. I'm gonna tell everyone this is

1384
01:11:08,000 --> 01:11:10,200
Speaker 1: my close friend Nicole. Yeah, we're gonna read her book.

1385
01:11:11,160 --> 01:11:13,720
Speaker 1: We've talked about like a while. I think I think

1386
01:11:13,720 --> 01:11:18,920
Speaker 1: it's a solid fun and that brings us to the

1387
01:11:19,080 --> 01:11:23,880
Speaker 1: end of this very special edition of book Club. So

1388
01:11:24,160 --> 01:11:26,479
Speaker 1: thank you so much Nicole for joining us. I cannot

1389
01:11:26,520 --> 01:11:29,479
Speaker 1: say how much this meant to me on a personal level.

1390
01:11:29,520 --> 01:11:32,160
Speaker 1: And and we do want to eventually come back and

1391
01:11:32,200 --> 01:11:37,080
Speaker 1: revisit the conversation of females and women, baby girls being

1392
01:11:37,120 --> 01:11:40,120
Speaker 1: adopted more so than boys and sons. In this whole

1393
01:11:40,160 --> 01:11:45,080
Speaker 1: conversation of why our son's preferred over daughters. And I

1394
01:11:45,120 --> 01:11:47,240
Speaker 1: know this has been in a conversation before in our

1395
01:11:47,280 --> 01:11:51,160
Speaker 1: podcast previously. I know the controversy of trains racial adoption

1396
01:11:51,200 --> 01:11:53,320
Speaker 1: has already been talked about, but kind of digging deeper

1397
01:11:53,479 --> 01:11:56,960
Speaker 1: up this value of you know, male or female and

1398
01:11:57,000 --> 01:12:00,160
Speaker 1: then the complexity of adoption how it gets intertwined. So

1399
01:12:00,200 --> 01:12:02,519
Speaker 1: we do want to talk about that too. For those

1400
01:12:02,520 --> 01:12:06,600
Speaker 1: who are like, wait, this is not specific to feminism,

1401
01:12:07,040 --> 01:12:09,960
Speaker 1: get it, um, but it's uh, it's it was such

1402
01:12:10,000 --> 01:12:12,479
Speaker 1: a personal thing for me and um. Having her as

1403
01:12:12,520 --> 01:12:17,000
Speaker 1: a writer who is a strong mother, sister, daughter, in

1404
01:12:17,160 --> 01:12:21,200
Speaker 1: playing this whole scenario her life out for the public

1405
01:12:21,400 --> 01:12:24,759
Speaker 1: has been a privilege to discuss with our So again,

1406
01:12:25,120 --> 01:12:27,120
Speaker 1: thank you Nicole for being a part of this. For

1407
01:12:27,120 --> 01:12:28,880
Speaker 1: those who stuck around and listen to the whole thing,

1408
01:12:28,880 --> 01:12:30,880
Speaker 1: I hope you did because it was really fun for

1409
01:12:30,960 --> 01:12:33,720
Speaker 1: us to do. For for me specifically, thank you for

1410
01:12:33,840 --> 01:12:36,760
Speaker 1: listening and kind of digging into what it is to

1411
01:12:36,800 --> 01:12:42,720
Speaker 1: see in this type of life and childhood. Yes, yes, absolutely,

1412
01:12:42,880 --> 01:12:46,800
Speaker 1: and cannot recommend it enough. It did occur to me

1413
01:12:46,880 --> 01:12:49,519
Speaker 1: that like, I don't know if it's made the final cut.

1414
01:12:49,560 --> 01:12:55,120
Speaker 1: But you kept bringing up my fan fiction and she asked,

1415
01:12:54,720 --> 01:12:57,559
Speaker 1: what fandoms are you writer? Do you write? I was

1416
01:12:57,600 --> 01:13:00,439
Speaker 1: like Harry Potter and Star Wars, which are both use

1417
01:13:00,479 --> 01:13:03,840
Speaker 1: adoption um as kind of a plot point, and you

1418
01:13:03,880 --> 01:13:06,240
Speaker 1: were what you helped me understand that better for my

1419
01:13:06,320 --> 01:13:11,000
Speaker 1: fan fiction, Samantha came to Leah and Luke. But yeah, yeah,

1420
01:13:11,160 --> 01:13:13,559
Speaker 1: so just in thinking about that, how often we do

1421
01:13:13,680 --> 01:13:20,639
Speaker 1: see that intermedia? Um? But yes, yes, uh so, thanks

1422
01:13:20,680 --> 01:13:23,840
Speaker 1: again to Nicole. If you have any recommendations for our

1423
01:13:23,880 --> 01:13:27,760
Speaker 1: next book club, we're all ears, thanks to anyone, to

1424
01:13:27,920 --> 01:13:31,040
Speaker 1: everyone who's already sent them. Um, we are keeping a list.

1425
01:13:31,040 --> 01:13:33,040
Speaker 1: We do you keep track, but keep them coming. You

1426
01:13:33,040 --> 01:13:35,320
Speaker 1: can email us at Stuff Media, mom Stuff at i

1427
01:13:35,439 --> 01:13:38,240
Speaker 1: heart media dot com, or you can find us on

1428
01:13:38,280 --> 01:13:41,360
Speaker 1: Twitter at Mom's Stuff podcast or on Instagram at stuff

1429
01:13:41,360 --> 01:13:43,600
Speaker 1: I've Never Told You. Thanks. It's always to our superproducer

1430
01:13:43,640 --> 01:13:46,839
Speaker 1: Andrew Howard. Thank you and thanks to you for listening

1431
01:13:47,240 --> 01:13:49,400
Speaker 1: Stuff I've Never Told You the protection of I Heart Radio.

1432
01:13:49,439 --> 01:13:51,320
Speaker 1: For a more podcast from I heart Radio, visit the

1433
01:13:51,320 --> 01:13:53,760
Speaker 1: I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

1434
01:13:53,800 --> 01:14:01,840
Speaker 1: to your favorite shows. Ye