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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight, or.

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Speaker 1: Shoot us an email at trust Me pod at gmail

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Speaker 1: dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust me, trust.

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Speaker 4: Me, trust me.

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Speaker 1: I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 4: I've never lived to you.

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Speaker 3: And we never have a live.

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Speaker 2: If you think that one person has all the answers,

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Speaker 2: don't welcome to trust Me. The podcast about Colts, extreme

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Speaker 2: belief and the abusive Power from two troubled teens who've

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Speaker 2: actually experienced it. I am Lola Blanc and I'm Megan

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Speaker 2: Elizabeth and today our guest is g Charles Wright. So

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Speaker 2: for Pride Month, we wanted to highlight some LGBTQ stories.

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Speaker 2: Today one of the stories is his. So he is

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Speaker 2: a casting director and he's a former Christian, and he's

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Speaker 2: going to talk to us about growing up Christian and

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Speaker 2: struggling with his sexuality, how he felt like he couldn't

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Speaker 2: be himself in the face of the all too common

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Speaker 2: religious stigma against the LGBTQ community and some of the

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Speaker 2: strict rules you had to go along with when going

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Speaker 2: to church.

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Speaker 1: We're also going to go on a fascinating tangent about

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Speaker 1: a natural disaster he was present for why he calls

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Speaker 1: his mom a psychopath, plus how he shed the influence

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Speaker 1: of his upbringing and finally accepted himself and to sexuality.

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Speaker 2: He is awesome. We record this a while ago. Actually,

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Speaker 2: we've been waiting for the right time, and the time

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Speaker 2: is now.

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Speaker 4: The time is now. I'm really excited about this one.

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Speaker 4: He's incredible.

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Speaker 2: It's true. It's true. Before we dive in with G Charles,

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Speaker 2: are wets call him G or Charles or G Charles.

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Speaker 2: I call him G Charles, G Charles. That's cool, I know, Okay.

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Speaker 4: I'm kind of jealous. I want people to call me MG,

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Speaker 4: but no one will. L Blanc.

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Speaker 2: L Blanc just sounds like the Blanc. You can call

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Speaker 2: me the Blanc if you want. Okay, Megan, tell me

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Speaker 2: your cultiest thing about.

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Speaker 4: Well, okay, well, it's kind of sad.

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Speaker 1: I'm reading his story right now about it's this school

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Speaker 1: in Missouri. It's called the Agape School, and it's closing.

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Speaker 1: It's a Christian boarding school that has been open for

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Speaker 1: years and years and years, and all of it's insane

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Speaker 1: abuse is now coming to light. So one mom talks

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Speaker 1: about going to visit her son and he had pink

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Speaker 1: eye because they had him rolling around an animal.

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Speaker 4: Shit.

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Speaker 2: No, yeah, my god, that is horrible.

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Speaker 1: So food was served on those trays like lunch trays

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Speaker 1: from middle school, but they would make them wet and

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Speaker 1: then put tortillas on them, so the tortilla was soggy

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Speaker 1: and then put like molded beans on top of the

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Speaker 1: tortilla to make it the grossest.

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Speaker 4: That was their food.

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Speaker 1: It was like, oh, supposed to be the grossest thing

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Speaker 1: it could possibly be.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Their website is still up. It's AGAPE Boardingschool dot org.

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Speaker 2: This is the right one, right, I me, it's gotta be.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a Missouri Yeah.

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Speaker 2: There are so many red flags on this website, Like

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Speaker 2: here are some of the who we work with. Boys

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Speaker 2: entering our program maybe defiant and rebellious, lazy or unmotivated,

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Speaker 2: especially in school withdrawn and angry. They think they know

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Speaker 2: it all and have no accountability. It says, teaches and

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Speaker 2: reinforces proper behavior, responsibility, and strong goals. In life, turning uncaring,

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Speaker 2: self centered boys and responsible and mature young men. It

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Speaker 2: sounds so hateful, even as just like on the face

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Speaker 2: of the website, like it sounds like they hate these kids.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean their their treatment of LGBT students

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Speaker 1: is abhorrent. And uh, I haven't gotten full stories yet,

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Speaker 1: but just a lot of people saying I was an

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Speaker 1: LGBT student there, and you're treated even worse than the

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Speaker 1: other students who are treated horribly.

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Speaker 4: So it's a mess, is that.

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Speaker 2: There are quotes saying that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm on Reddit right now, Okay.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, some of us. I haven't looked into it as

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Speaker 2: much as you, but everything I'm looking at just looks

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Speaker 2: like really fucking sad and horrible. There are some, I guess.

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Speaker 2: A guy named Robert Bucklan went to the school from

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Speaker 2: ages thirteen to eighteen. There are multiple multiple lawsuits coming out,

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Speaker 2: but one of his quotes says, you're just screaming for help.

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Speaker 2: He said, you can literally hear the blood curdling screams

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Speaker 2: from the kids downstairs in the restraining room. The restraining room. Lord,

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Speaker 2: oh my god.

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Speaker 4: He said.

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Speaker 2: There's letters I wrote home and in my file that

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Speaker 2: talk about how I wish I was dead and that

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Speaker 2: dead animals get treated better than we did. I talk

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Speaker 2: about physical abuse, sexual abuse. They instilled a type of

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Speaker 2: fear in you to not speak out, and they broke us.

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Speaker 2: It's just awful. There are so many stories like this.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's truly like it's amazing that there are

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Speaker 2: places like this that can get away with that for

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Speaker 2: so long, absolutely in the day and age. Like I

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Speaker 2: guess it makes sense if it's maybe a state that's

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Speaker 2: not you know, that doesn't value speaking up about your

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Speaker 2: experiences that much, or something like, you know, I'm sure

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Speaker 2: there are lots of these places all over the place,

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Speaker 2: but it's just like.

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Speaker 4: Hi, oh my.

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Speaker 1: Actually, my high school boyfriend got I don't know why

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Speaker 1: I'm laughing, but he got sent to a military school

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Speaker 1: because he was just so horribly behaved, and he did

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Speaker 1: end up scamming the system a lot by saying, like,

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Speaker 1: I have a dislocated disk, so he wouldn't do the

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Speaker 1: like arm lifting things that they'd make you do, and

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Speaker 1: they were punished.

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Speaker 4: They'd just make him do arm circles.

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Speaker 1: So he like broke me a letter once that I

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Speaker 1: was like, I had to do two hours arm circles

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Speaker 1: today and I was like, where are you two?

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Speaker 2: Of course of arm circles is still Oh, it's in difficult.

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Speaker 1: He came home a completely different person, but also still

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Speaker 1: himself a little bit because he had been able to

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Speaker 1: work it in his favor in a few ways that

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Speaker 1: I think kind of saved his.

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Speaker 4: Sense of self maybe, M if that makes sense, m

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Speaker 4: M yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean I just like, I'm continually amazed by how

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Speaker 2: many people think that punishment, like physical punishment and even

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Speaker 2: emotional punishment is a thing that is actually gonna help

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Speaker 2: a kid.

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Speaker 4: It's like, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Literally every psychologist is like, no, not a thing. And

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Speaker 2: this continues to be this like myth that so many

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Speaker 2: Americans have. Still I feel like, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I don't have children, but it would be hard to

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Speaker 1: discipline them and very frustrating.

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Speaker 2: So, you know, in any case, there was also sexual

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Speaker 2: abuse going on. I mean this, this, this was like

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Speaker 2: just a whole other level at this school.

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Speaker 4: It's awful, awful, awful, awful.

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Speaker 2: I'm glad they're finally getting you know, outed me too.

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Speaker 2: It's got the same name as this one church in La.

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Speaker 2: Have you been to it? Oh?

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Speaker 1: I love Agape in La.

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Speaker 2: I went once. Well, I went once as a kid

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Speaker 2: with my mom, and I was like, non denominational church,

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Speaker 2: this is awesome. And then I went once as an

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Speaker 2: adult because I was looking for a non denominational church

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Speaker 2: where it was like not really about the Bible or

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Speaker 2: Jesus or anything specific and more just about like uplifting community.

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Speaker 2: And I was immediately creeped out and left.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well you know because they had photos and a

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Speaker 2: cardboard cutout like portraits and a life sized cardboard cutout

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Speaker 2: of the found Yeah, everywhere, and there was one cardboard

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Speaker 2: cutout of him literally right above the atm.

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Speaker 4: Okay, that's that's kind of stupid.

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Speaker 2: I was like, whenever the like leader, there's like portraits

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Speaker 2: of the leader everywhere. It just like makes me uncomfortable

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Speaker 2: because I'm like, is this about what you're preaching or

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Speaker 2: is this about this person's race?

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Speaker 4: Right, it makes sense.

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Speaker 2: But I love the idea of a non denominational church.

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Speaker 2: I've been to like a Unitarian Universalist church or whatever,

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Speaker 2: and it was great. You know, they were talking about

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Speaker 2: like self betterment and helping our community exactly. Why not anyway,

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Speaker 2: different agape different a.

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Speaker 1: GOP different agbe Yes, yes, So let's let's go to

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Speaker 1: the interview.

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Speaker 2: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome Gee Charles Wright, also known as just

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Speaker 2: G to the show. Thank you so much for coming

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Speaker 2: on today, Ray.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. This is really fun. I'm a

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Speaker 3: fan of your show.

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Speaker 4: Well, yay, thank you.

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Speaker 2: So do you want to just start us at the

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Speaker 2: beginning of your religious upbringing? Tell us how it all began.

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Speaker 3: Well, here's the thing with me. I always knew I

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Speaker 3: was gay. I mean technic I'm a textbook bisexual, which

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Speaker 3: only makes things more confusing for you when you are

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Speaker 3: trapped in a world of religiosity and trying to figure

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Speaker 3: things out. So I am the son of a fallen

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Speaker 3: woman and a pent up Catholic man.

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Speaker 2: Define a fallen woman?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, what is a fallen woman? I think I might

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Speaker 4: be one.

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Speaker 2: I think we both.

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Speaker 3: I don't think we have them anymore. Okay, but just

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Speaker 3: in terms of like the thornbirds or something like that,

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Speaker 3: where you've got the My dad went to seminary. He

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Speaker 3: was going to be a Catholic priest. He was all in,

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Speaker 3: all in on it. Came from a Catholic family. He

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Speaker 3: was so super serious about Catholicism and then ended up

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Speaker 3: deciding he wasn't going to become a priest. Whatever he

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Speaker 3: was going to do is start teaching instead, he thought

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Speaker 3: he might want to go be a missionary in Africa.

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Speaker 3: And he and my mom met at Pasadena City College.

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Speaker 3: So if you ever drive by Pasadena City College, you

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Speaker 3: know that that is, in some small way, the birthplace

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Speaker 3: of g. Charles Wright. So they're like twenty they meet

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Speaker 3: my dad, super serious Catholic, and my mom. So my

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Speaker 3: dad's a narcissist and my mom is a sociopath. Really,

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Speaker 3: I don't even speak for anymore.

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Speaker 2: So much more I want to know about that. We're

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Speaker 2: just going to Glass I pass by.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the story is, I think was my parents were

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Speaker 3: like twenty years old, nineteen or twenty. Wow, they'd started

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Speaker 3: dating and they got pregnant. So they got married because

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Speaker 3: my dad is a Catholic, right, and my dad is

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Speaker 3: so into the church, like he's like as he knows

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Speaker 3: all these priests and stuff. So they got married with

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Speaker 3: my mom converting to Catholicism, without my mom converting to Catholicism, right,

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Speaker 3: Like they just fill out the because you know, at

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Speaker 3: the end of the day, everything is just a signature

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Speaker 3: on a contract. They get married real quick fun fact.

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Speaker 3: Not me, I'm not the kid. There's a miscarriage. They

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Speaker 3: stay together because my dad's Catholic. They don't get divorced.

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Speaker 3: I come along about two and a half years later.

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Speaker 3: Everything with my dad it's all the church. It's all

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Speaker 3: the church. My mom is really sort of there to

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Speaker 3: sabotage my dad, and my dad is really sort of

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Speaker 3: there to think he's rescuing my mom.

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Speaker 4: WHOA.

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Speaker 3: That's their dynamic in all of their relationships. They experience

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Speaker 3: no surprise to you that they were divorced before I

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Speaker 3: was seven. But during those formative years up until seven,

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Speaker 3: I was all in with my dad having to attend Mass.

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Speaker 3: I wasn't even allowed to go to Sunday.

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Speaker 1: School, right because Sunday school just was like not serious enough.

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Speaker 2: That's right, it's like too fun.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there wasn't Sunday school in our religion either. It

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Speaker 1: was very look down upon. The kids go to Sunday school,

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Speaker 1: right ill, right.

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. See we had our like Sunday school,

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Speaker 2: but it was incredibly boring, like there was nothing fun

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Speaker 2: about it, I guess, except for a couple of songs

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Speaker 2: that were slightly different from the adult songs, right, Okay.

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Speaker 3: It's really just a way to separate the kids, don't

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Speaker 3: they really kind of like the men and the women

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Speaker 3: even kind of separate a little.

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Speaker 4: Was that in the Mormon church, Lola, does that happened?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, wow, there.

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Speaker 2: Was three hours of churches, different meetings for everyone.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So that's kind of how it was with this

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Speaker 3: Catholic stuff. So I would have to go to my

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Speaker 3: with my dad to that. I was doctrinated into the

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Speaker 3: Now I lay me down to sleep, I prayed the

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Speaker 3: Lord my soul to keep if I should die. Before

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Speaker 3: I wait, I pray the Lord my soul take. I

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Speaker 3: still remember it. I had to say that every night.

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Speaker 3: I had to kneel at my bed and clasp my

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Speaker 3: hands and pray to God. Also in my mom's psychopath, right,

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Speaker 3: so sociopath psychopath. So I'm getting completely mentally fucked by

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Speaker 3: my mom all day, and then my dad will come

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Speaker 3: home and hear all the horrible things my mom would

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Speaker 3: say about me, and then my dad would would beat

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Speaker 3: me and like full on, you know, the same, the

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Speaker 3: whole Catholic thing, like not even you know, like pull

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Speaker 3: your pants down, hitting me with the shoe, then giving

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Speaker 3: me his big Catholic lecture and then locking me in

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Speaker 3: my room. And it's the I say all that to

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Speaker 3: say this, I'm really great in bed. So anyway, it's

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Speaker 3: a great Catholic. It's a great Catholic. Anyway. So then

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Speaker 3: my mom divorces my dad. My mom is having a

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Speaker 3: series of affairs. This is a whole other thing about

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Speaker 3: my sociopath mom. My mom had affairs with all of

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Speaker 3: my friends fathers. Wow, but only my friend's, not my

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Speaker 3: brother's friends, who literally literally destroyed five of my friend's families.

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Speaker 3: And then they would then the families would move away. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and the families would move away all on our street.

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Speaker 3: And then the family would move away, and I'd lose

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Speaker 3: my friend. And then I'd have tried and make a

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Speaker 3: new friend. But now the words out and nobod wants

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Speaker 3: to be a friend. And when my brother was born.

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Speaker 3: An another old chestnut that my mom still loved to

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Speaker 3: joke about at the holiday table every year until I

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Speaker 3: stopped talking to her seven years ago, which was how

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Speaker 3: at the age of four and five and six, my

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Speaker 3: mother would just lock me in the garage all day

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Speaker 3: because she couldn't handle taking care of two children. I

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Speaker 3: had a little my brother had just been born, and

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Speaker 3: so then I would sit in the garage and then

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Speaker 3: my dad would come home. He would open the garage,

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Speaker 3: pull his car in, and there I would be sitting

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Speaker 3: in the garage. And then my dad would think, what

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Speaker 3: horrible thing must this child have done to my wife?

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Speaker 3: And or yeah, yeah, so the real crazy narcissist and

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Speaker 3: psychopathic behave.

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Speaker 1: Why do you think she never did anything with your

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Speaker 1: brother's friend? Did she have like friends? Did she have

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Speaker 1: an obsession with you? Like?

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Speaker 2: Was there a deeper yes, seems like there's some kind

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Speaker 2: of vendetta there.

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Speaker 3: Total vendetta there. My brother still talks to my mom,

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Speaker 3: and it is to his own detriment, you know, that's

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Speaker 3: his thing. But he was always favored, yeah, by my mom,

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Speaker 3: and I was always ridiculed. And I believe that that

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Speaker 3: is because I was a very feminine gay boy and

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Speaker 3: my brother is a very textbook male like cis gender

303
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Speaker 3: straight male guy. Right. She kind of loved that. Anyway,

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Speaker 3: So my mom divorces my dad. She was also my

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Speaker 3: dad worked two jobs in order worked at a he

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Speaker 3: was a school teacher, and then he was also a

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Speaker 3: work part time at a liquor store to you know,

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Speaker 3: keep things going. My mom started having affair with the

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Speaker 3: guy who owned the liquor store.

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Speaker 2: Damn, your mom got around, She's all.

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Speaker 3: Over the place. It goes on. This is a whole

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Speaker 3: nother podcast, but anyway, so my mom divorces my dad. Now,

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Speaker 3: of course, my dad's free Catholic. This divorce cripples my

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Speaker 3: father because he has been divorced, he has also been

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Speaker 3: excommunicated from the Catholic Church. So my dad, when I'm

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Speaker 3: at the age of about seven, my dad does this

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Speaker 3: one eighty on the Catholic church. He stops shaving. He

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Speaker 3: was a very like shave your face, suit and tie guy.

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Speaker 3: He stops shaving, grows a beard, starts wearing sandals all

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Speaker 3: the time. And I know what you think, but that's

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Speaker 3: not where this is going. He just he's just like,

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Speaker 3: starts wearing Hawaiian shirts and corduroy pants and moves to

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Speaker 3: the beach and kind of starts his life over and

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Speaker 3: leaves the and is so broken about having been really

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Speaker 3: excommunicated from the church that he had given his entire

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Speaker 3: life to. Right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, of course.

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Speaker 3: So then my dad gets with the woman that would

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Speaker 3: become my stepmom. They basically just start a whole new

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Speaker 3: life fifteen minutes away from where I live, and I

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Speaker 3: rarely see him, and he's very he's never a real present.

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Speaker 3: He's a narcissist. He's all about that anyway. So that

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Speaker 3: goes on, and then I'm stuck with my mom, and

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Speaker 3: then my grandma moves in with us to help take

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Speaker 3: care of me. And my grandma is like an Evangelical

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Speaker 3: Protestant Christian. She loves to watch all of the TV evangelists.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, you poor thing, you have it coming

338
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Speaker 1: in all directions.

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Speaker 3: For real, all directions. I already know that I hate

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Speaker 3: myself for being who I am, because that has been

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Speaker 3: clearly shown to me that I'm trash. And I live

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Speaker 3: in Orange County and Huntington Beach at this point, so

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Speaker 3: there's a lot of Christians. So what happens is all

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Speaker 3: of these you know, well meaning Christian families want to

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Speaker 3: take me under their wing because they know what kind

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Speaker 3: of a horrible home life I have, so they will

347
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Speaker 3: take me with them to their churches. And while we're

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Speaker 3: driving to their churches, I get to also hear about

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Speaker 3: how shitty, you know, my life is and how much better.

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Speaker 4: They are, you know, Oh, we know yeah, yeah, yeah, you.

351
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Speaker 3: Know that thing. Right. So, as a young boy, I'm

352
00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:11,200
Speaker 3: getting shuffled around to like your Lutheran and your Presbyterian

353
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Speaker 3: and you're you know that that kind of thing. And

354
00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:15,520
Speaker 3: then as you know, this is oh so this is

355
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Speaker 3: in the nineteen seventies, and then by the nineteen eighties,

356
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Speaker 3: your Methodist, your Lutheran, your Protestant churches, right, really start

357
00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:29,480
Speaker 3: to disintegrate as so many of the children, the grown

358
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Speaker 3: children from those those families move to evangelical megachurches more

359
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Speaker 3: of a prosperity gospel and a very you know, elitist thing.

360
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Speaker 3: You know, it's there's so many more you know, loopholes

361
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Speaker 3: and stuff like that, so exact right, this isn't your

362
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Speaker 3: father's Christian church kind of thing that. Hey we can

363
00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:51,000
Speaker 3: play guitars, yeah, and right.

364
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Speaker 2: Right right, it's cool.

365
00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:55,960
Speaker 4: Have you guys been watching The Righteous Gemstones. It's my

366
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Speaker 4: favorite show. Oh my god, did you see that Joel Olstein.

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Speaker 1: They just found six hundred thousand dollars and has hidden

368
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Speaker 1: oh yeah.

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Speaker 4: Hidden trummer.

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Speaker 3: A plumber was doing some work in one of the yeah,

371
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Speaker 3: one of the bathrooms or something, to open up a wall. Yeah,

372
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Speaker 3: bags of money. Six hundred thousand dollars.

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Speaker 2: What a shocker. Yeah, you mean people like that are

374
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Speaker 2: motivated by money and hide it away.

375
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Speaker 3: I've never heard of such thing.

376
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Speaker 2: Wait, so your mom is not religious at all anymore?

377
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Speaker 3: Right, my mother was never religious.

378
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Speaker 2: But she's not even she's not going to church. But

379
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Speaker 2: your grandma's watching this TV stuff, and then now your

380
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Speaker 2: neighbors are randomly taking you to different churches.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, we watched a lot of Jim and Tammy

382
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Speaker 3: Faye Baker. Oh nice, we watched a lot of Jan

383
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Speaker 3: and Paul Crouch, which were the TBN network out out

384
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Speaker 3: of Orange County.

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Speaker 2: Lucky you yeah, co quality content?

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah. Then I start high school in nineteen

387
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Speaker 3: eighty and there are Bible studies going on at lunchtime

388
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Speaker 3: at my high school. I mean, can you imagine? No,

389
00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:02,520
Speaker 3: so Bible studies going on, and I'm still so hopped

390
00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:05,520
Speaker 3: up on God. I know that everything about me is wrong.

391
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Speaker 3: I'm basically my own one man gay conversion therapy camp.

392
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Speaker 4: Great.

393
00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:17,720
Speaker 3: I'm trying to pray the gay away at because I'm

394
00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:20,680
Speaker 3: hoping that if I can become a better person, then

395
00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:27,840
Speaker 3: my parents will actually loving so spoiler alert, they never

396
00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:33,800
Speaker 3: do so anyway, it turns out that the power was

397
00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:38,560
Speaker 3: within me all along. So just love myself, Dorothy just

398
00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:42,119
Speaker 3: very very Wizard of Us one of my favorite movies

399
00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:44,520
Speaker 3: growing up. And I don't know if I mentioned obviously

400
00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:49,919
Speaker 3: I was gay. So then I fall into these Bible

401
00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:54,240
Speaker 3: studies at lunch, and that's what leads me really to

402
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,080
Speaker 3: religion for the first time. I had attended these churches

403
00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:00,280
Speaker 3: with people as a kid, but I was just kind

404
00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:02,480
Speaker 3: of there. And honestly, for the most part, between the

405
00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:06,000
Speaker 3: churches I used to have to attend and stuff like that,

406
00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:10,679
Speaker 3: I was really just like fodder for gay pedophiles, you know.

407
00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:14,480
Speaker 3: That's I was constantly being hit up by grown men.

408
00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:17,880
Speaker 3: Luckily nothing ever happened to me, but that was clearly

409
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Speaker 3: going on.

410
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Speaker 2: Like when you were being carted around, Like where would that,

411
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Speaker 2: Where would people hit on you?

412
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Speaker 3: There's always some old guy who's sort of like the

413
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Speaker 3: youth minister or youth pastor guy who likes to take

414
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Speaker 3: the kids on trips and stuff.

415
00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:33,000
Speaker 4: Oh oh god, Oh.

416
00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:34,440
Speaker 3: There's always it's always them.

417
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Speaker 2: Terrifying.

418
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:37,280
Speaker 3: Yeah. So then I get into high school. It's nineteen

419
00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:40,560
Speaker 3: eighty nineteen eighty one, and I start doubling down. Now

420
00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:44,080
Speaker 3: I'm actually reading the Bible. I'm feeling like this could

421
00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:47,600
Speaker 3: be the way that I kind of make my parents

422
00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:50,760
Speaker 3: love me, or find a way to accept my parents.

423
00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:53,560
Speaker 3: And I have an uncle who is only ten years

424
00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:56,280
Speaker 3: older than me. It was very close with me growing up.

425
00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:58,480
Speaker 3: He was like a big brother, really present for me.

426
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Speaker 3: He is an evangelical Christian. The two adults in my

427
00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:04,600
Speaker 3: life for this uncle and my grandma, who are the

428
00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:07,159
Speaker 3: only ones who pay any attention to me and support me.

429
00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:09,800
Speaker 3: And it's very clear that these two are not going

430
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:12,560
Speaker 3: to be done with my sexual orientation. So I start

431
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:14,240
Speaker 3: feeling like this is a great way for me to

432
00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:16,159
Speaker 3: become more like my uncle, because I know this is

433
00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:19,879
Speaker 3: what my uncle does, and he's really great and he

434
00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:22,879
Speaker 3: always has fun friends. They always seem supportive. And now

435
00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:26,080
Speaker 3: I'm hanging out with all these Christians and everybody's so

436
00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:30,840
Speaker 3: nice and very welcoming. I don't feel quite as anxious

437
00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,680
Speaker 3: and uptight as I normally do around people because they're

438
00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:37,199
Speaker 3: also they are so happy to see me, right, So

439
00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:39,800
Speaker 3: I become part of a group, and it, of course,

440
00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:42,600
Speaker 3: you know, makes everything about the whole high school experience

441
00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,520
Speaker 3: a real fucking shit show for me, and that is

442
00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:49,680
Speaker 3: what leads me to Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa, which

443
00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:53,160
Speaker 3: was an enormous megachurch. It's one of the first megachurches.

444
00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:56,840
Speaker 3: It started in Costa Mesa by with this pastor Chuck Smith,

445
00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:59,480
Speaker 3: and by the time I show up there, the church

446
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:02,760
Speaker 3: had been open for maybe about fifteen years or so.

447
00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:06,680
Speaker 3: Their big thing was youth movement. They had a lot

448
00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:11,400
Speaker 3: of youth Bible studies where the youth pastors were dudes,

449
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:14,919
Speaker 3: like surfer dude, guys who talked like you know people

450
00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,879
Speaker 3: talk in my area. Nobody was like trying to, like,

451
00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:23,720
Speaker 3: you know, grab my dick, and it made me feel

452
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:25,919
Speaker 3: like a bro. Like I was like, oh, maybe I

453
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,440
Speaker 3: could just be this, you know. And they and there

454
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:32,439
Speaker 3: was very youth centric and everyone dressed very casually, and

455
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,400
Speaker 3: it was very It was a much more casual atmosphere

456
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,919
Speaker 3: than all of these very staunch, rigorous churches I've been to.

457
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:43,919
Speaker 3: And then on Saturday nights, the church would host these concerts.

458
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:45,679
Speaker 4: Oh my God, did you get to lift your hands?

459
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:49,800
Speaker 3: I mean all the time. Oh, I walked I walked down,

460
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:51,760
Speaker 3: I walk down. They they do a thing where you're

461
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,399
Speaker 3: ready to accept Jesus into your life as your Lord

462
00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:58,439
Speaker 3: and Savior, and I went down and I became born again,

463
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:04,040
Speaker 3: and I would these Christian rock concerts on Saturdays, and

464
00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:06,280
Speaker 3: that became kind of my life. And then on Sundays

465
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,159
Speaker 3: I would go to church. And then I had this

466
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:12,200
Speaker 3: group of friends that bought me. They that were a

467
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:14,520
Speaker 3: little older than me at my high school, who were

468
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:17,119
Speaker 3: sort of like my Christian mentors, and they bought me

469
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,760
Speaker 3: a Bible all that, and we would go to church.

470
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,719
Speaker 3: We started going to Calvary Chapel Coasta, Mesa, but then

471
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,359
Speaker 3: they felt like that was too big. It seemed to

472
00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:28,719
Speaker 3: be all about money at some point, so we started

473
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:32,240
Speaker 3: going to another Calvary chapel that was in Seal Beach

474
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,400
Speaker 3: that was hosted out of a high school auditorium because

475
00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,440
Speaker 3: they did not have an actual church. So I would

476
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,120
Speaker 3: drive out there with them, and that became my Sunday ritual,

477
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:46,160
Speaker 3: was going driving out to church with them in Seal Beach,

478
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:49,399
Speaker 3: and then afterwards we would go have breakfast. And it

479
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,600
Speaker 3: was so great because I wasn't at home where everything

480
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 3: was horrible. But inside right I'm just gnawing away inside

481
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:00,680
Speaker 3: of me because it's like I know I have secret

482
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 3: that nobody knows about and if they find out, it's

483
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 3: all over for me. Oh and then at some point,

484
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:11,240
Speaker 3: I think by the time I graduate high school. After

485
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,920
Speaker 3: I'm out of high school and into college, I stopped

486
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:18,680
Speaker 3: going to church, but it's all still there, right, I'm

487
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 3: still praying every night. I'm acting out in irresponsible ways

488
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:27,159
Speaker 3: because I'm so pent up and full of hate. And

489
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:29,239
Speaker 3: of course all of this is happening as I go

490
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,680
Speaker 3: through puberty and the AIDS epidemic begins, right yeah.

491
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:34,680
Speaker 1: And people are saying like, this is because God hates

492
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:35,160
Speaker 1: gay people.

493
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:37,159
Speaker 4: Yeah right, yeah, like that.

494
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:40,480
Speaker 1: Was that was the scientific explanation for like three years.

495
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 4: It is just, oh, it just God hates gay people.

496
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah. So I was like, I'm fucked anyway. So

497
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,200
Speaker 3: that was kind of my life, and it probably wasn't

498
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 3: until oh my gosh, I think I was in my

499
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 3: early thirties before I finally stopped praying at night and

500
00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 3: started to embrace my atheism. I am there's no surprise

501
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,439
Speaker 3: that I am an atheist, but my road to atheism

502
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:09,240
Speaker 3: was a long and complicated affair, and it wasn't until

503
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,040
Speaker 3: I kind of embraced that that I was able to

504
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:14,240
Speaker 3: really start living my life authentically.

505
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm always kind of jealous, even though this is

506
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 2: really stupid of churches with with like youth, like rock

507
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:23,919
Speaker 2: bands and stuff. So I'm like, Mormon church is so

508
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:28,719
Speaker 2: fucking boring, Like it is just an organ and everyone

509
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 2: talks really slow and they droned along, and I was like, oh, man,

510
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:35,520
Speaker 2: I wish I could like be up there dancing right

511
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 2: God in my body. You know that seems fun.

512
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,880
Speaker 3: That's why all of these megachurches are so popular, right, Yeah.

513
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 1: They tell you God loves for you to like dance

514
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 1: and go to concerts and that you should be super rich.

515
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:47,640
Speaker 4: Yes, I'm men.

516
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 2: I'm yeah yeah, way way more fun.

517
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 4: I'm so down for that completely.

518
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, no, I get that appeal completely, especially especially

519
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 2: given all of the other factors going on in your life.

520
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 2: At what point did you sort of accept your sexuality

521
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:07,119
Speaker 2: internally and then externally. I guess because thirties team to

522
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:09,119
Speaker 2: thirties that there's quite a big gap there, Like what

523
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:10,640
Speaker 2: sort of happened in between?

524
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 3: Oh gosh. I started going to therapy when I was

525
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,480
Speaker 3: in my mid twenties, so I think I was maybe

526
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 3: twenty five, and I stayed in therapy until I was

527
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:24,920
Speaker 3: thirty three, and I talked a lot with my therapist

528
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:33,360
Speaker 3: about everything except that I'm now eight years I really

529
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:35,879
Speaker 3: am sort of a textbook bisexual, so I would just

530
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,639
Speaker 3: focus on women. I would just talk about my my

531
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 3: romantic relationships with women, which just some for some reason,

532
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:46,359
Speaker 3: never seemed to work out. And that was the whole thing.

533
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 3: And then I ended up having to stop therapy because

534
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 3: I ended up starting my new career in casting. So

535
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,400
Speaker 3: I worked as a casting director. Once I started working

536
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 3: in casting, you know, I was thirty three years old

537
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,439
Speaker 3: and I was starting from the bottom as an intern.

538
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 3: So I'm sort of a late bloomer in just about

539
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 3: every aspect of my life. I think because of the

540
00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:10,359
Speaker 3: arrested development of my religious childhood relatable. Yeah, so I'm

541
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 3: thirty three and I'm starting where a lot of twenty

542
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 3: three year olds start. I knew I had to kind

543
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,719
Speaker 3: of double down. So it didn't really allow me working

544
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,199
Speaker 3: and casting as sort of an all consuming career. You

545
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 3: don't really have the ability to leave work early one

546
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:27,960
Speaker 3: day a week to go to your therapy session and

547
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,359
Speaker 3: all that jazz. So I stopped after eight years and

548
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 3: just dive into work. I would not have been able

549
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 3: to take even that chance on myself to start over

550
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 3: in a career that I was passionate about and to

551
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 3: live part of my life authentically. Had I not spent

552
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:46,240
Speaker 3: eight years in therapy, for sure, right. It allowed me

553
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 3: to focus on that, and I just kind of focused

554
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 3: on casting and worked and worked and worked and worked.

555
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 3: And then so I'm thirty three at the age of

556
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 3: thirty seven, I was, I guess two thousand and four.

557
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 3: I think I was thirty seven. I was in Thailand

558
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 3: for the Christmas holiday in two thousand and four with

559
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:05,920
Speaker 3: my friend Melanie and this souther guy who was friend

560
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 3: of hers, and we were there during I don't know

561
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 3: if you remember this, but in two thousand and four,

562
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:13,400
Speaker 3: there's huge tsunami. Yup, yes, oh my god, and I'm

563
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,479
Speaker 3: I'm in Thailand on this tiny little resort island with

564
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 3: no cars. It's just like a little resort island called

565
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 3: Kopeepe Island because everything in Thailand has really dirty names

566
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 3: if you're an American with an arrested development. So I'm

567
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 3: on Peepee Island and the tsunami hits and we've become

568
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 3: a shipwrecked on this island.

569
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 2: Wait, can you can you just walk us through that experience?

570
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 2: Really fast, because that's wild.

571
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 3: Well, it was a life changing experience, as you might. Oh,

572
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 3: so I don't like to travel. I don't do a

573
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 3: lot of traveling. I'm pretty you know, I'm pretty tense,

574
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 3: pretty uh, you know, I'm still pretty locked up kind

575
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 3: of dude. But my friend Melanie lives to travel.

576
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 4: She said, it's not going to be a big deal.

577
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 2: Let's go a tsunami.

578
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 4: My god, we'll get out.

579
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 3: I had just gone through a period of my life

580
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 3: where I had four very close family members and friends

581
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 3: all pass away, and I got a promotion at work,

582
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 3: and she says, you want to go on this trip

583
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 3: to Thailand. I'm going with this my friend Billy and

584
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 3: his wife, and his wife is from Thailand and they

585
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 3: go there fairly regularly. And I thought, well, honestly, I've

586
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:23,479
Speaker 3: no desire to go to Thailand, but if you're going

587
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 3: to go, like that would be the way to go

588
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 3: with someone who is from Thailand, right, like to really see,

589
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 3: really to really see the place. Sure, So at the

590
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 3: last minute, the wife can't come, so it was just us.

591
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 3: It was just us three and we went and it's

592
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 3: whatever it is. We were there for like a week

593
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 3: already and we'd moved around a bit, and it literally

594
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 3: the tsunami happened the morning after I had finally started

595
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 3: to relax into my vacation. I need when it comes

596
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 3: to vacations, like I need a lot of time because

597
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 3: it takes me a long time to just sort of

598
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 3: get into it. Yeah, yes, this happens, and it's obviously

599
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 3: just life changing situation where Melanie and I it forged.

600
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 3: It forged a lifelong friendship between my friend Melanie and

601
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 3: I who are still extremely close.

602
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, that'll do it.

603
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 3: That'll do it. And we basically were there. We were

604
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:17,240
Speaker 3: very fortunate that we were in by happenstance we hit.

605
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 3: We were in our rooms at the time the tsunami happened,

606
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 3: and our rooms were in a one of only two

607
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 3: or three cement and steel hotel structures on this otherwise

608
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 3: resort island of cabanas and bungalow. Wow, all of those

609
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 3: cabanas and bungalows, which were much more sought after, were

610
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 3: completely dissolved.

611
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 1: Dude, the fuck.

612
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 3: And our building was a three story building. Melanie was

613
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 3: on the second floor. I was on the third floor.

614
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 3: First floor gets completely demolished, second floor gets flooded, out,

615
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 3: I got a little spray, A little spray of water

616
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 3: hit the sliding glass door onto our balcony.

617
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 2: Wow.

618
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 3: And we were all packed because we were getting ready

619
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 3: to leave that morning to go to another island, so

620
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 3: we had all our stifle packed. The tsunami hit. We'd

621
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 3: already gone out early in the morning, had breakfast and

622
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 3: done a little shopping, and we'd just come back. We're

623
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 3: chilling in our rooms and when the tsunami hit, so

624
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 3: Melanie came up to our room, and then we had

625
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 3: a place to stay. And we started clearing out rooms

626
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 3: and making places for other people who were abandoned, giving

627
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 3: them rooms and helping people within our you know, in

628
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 3: our building. And that's kind of what we did while

629
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 3: it was all going on. And then the next day

630
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 3: a Red Cross had shown up and set up a

631
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 3: trearch center. There were a lot of doctors and nurses

632
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 3: who were just vacationing on the island. We all went

633
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 3: out in the morning and just went out to find

634
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 3: the people who had been like abandoned or wrecked someplace

635
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 3: and helped bring them into the trearch center.

636
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I cannot believe that you were there.

637
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 2: Did you watch the movie the Impossible.

638
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 3: No, I can't. I really can't bring myself to watch it.

639
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 2: It's incredible, but it's really rough.

640
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's isn't it like Naomi Watson ew

641
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 3: And McGregor or something like that, and it's about a

642
00:31:57,840 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 3: family stuck in that situation.

643
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 1: Well, I will tell you, g Charles, I feel so

644
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 1: almost like triggered in a good way about your story

645
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,479
Speaker 1: because there's so many similarities, like to the little sibling

646
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 1: that's the favorite, and you know, my dad coming home

647
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 1: and I'm in trouble but I haven't even done anything.

648
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 4: It's not fair. I will tell you.

649
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 1: I was also on a cruise when not seen on

650
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 1: me hit, Well, you weren't on a cruise. I was

651
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 1: on a cruise and that wave I think affected us

652
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 1: because we almost fucking tipped over.

653
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 4: TV's falling out of the thing, really shattering everywhere.

654
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 1: And I'm a very anxious person who's like I'm not

655
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 1: going anywhere, I'm not getting on a plane, and everyone's

656
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 1: like it's fine, and I was.

657
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 4: Like, it's not fine.

658
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 1: So it's just a little funny asside. Yeah, yeah, that's interesting.

659
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 3: And so it's coming back from that. So I have

660
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 3: my entire life suffered from what is now referred to

661
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 3: as c PTSD, meaning complex PTS or complex So right,

662
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 3: so I came back from that with a lot more PTSD.

663
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 2: I can imagine Jesus, and it.

664
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 3: Kind of flipped a switch in my brain. The next

665
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 3: year is like two thousand and five, and I was

666
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 3: on a vacation to Chicago and I was there for

667
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 3: like seven or eight days. I went there to meet

668
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 3: up with this woman that I had met at a

669
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 3: friend's wedding earlier in that year, and I went there

670
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 3: to meet up with her. I'm coming back to my

671
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 3: hotel one afternoon from a day of being outside seeing

672
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 3: and my hotel every time I would come back to

673
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 3: I've been there for like eight, you know, like eight days,

674
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 3: because as I mentioned, it takes a long time for

675
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:30,959
Speaker 3: me to kind of relax into a vacation. Yeah, and

676
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 3: I'm also trying to get on the horse again, like

677
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 3: I'm trying to tell I was like, if I don't

678
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 3: start taking trips and going places, I'll never leave my house.

679
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 3: So I come back to my Usually I come back

680
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:43,480
Speaker 3: to my hotel and the lobby's dead. There's you know,

681
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 3: nobody hanging out there. I come back one evening, it's

682
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 3: like a Friday night. Lobby is packed. There is some

683
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 3: sort of thing happening. There's all these people dressed very

684
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 3: nicely and stuff, and there's a man standing at the

685
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 3: door in a little tuxedo and he's staying next to

686
00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 3: this like a poster for some sort of show. And

687
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 3: I walk up and he goes, Hi, are you here

688
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 3: for the drag show? And I said, no, I'm a

689
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:08,840
Speaker 3: guest here at at the hotel. What's going on? And

690
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 3: they said, oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I thought you were.

691
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:13,719
Speaker 3: I thought you were here for the AIDS benefit for

692
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 3: the drag show. And I said, well, oh, well I

693
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:18,920
Speaker 3: can't be. I don't have anything to do. And you know,

694
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:20,759
Speaker 3: what is this thing? So they had just had like

695
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,800
Speaker 3: this big, like you know, hundreds of dollars a seat

696
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:27,239
Speaker 3: benefit and that had just ended, and then they were

697
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 3: going to do a late show of the drag show

698
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 3: that was twenty dollars you know, for us for US

699
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:37,359
Speaker 3: poors su and so I was like, yeah, why not?

700
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 3: So I paid my twenty bucks. I'd never been to

701
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 3: a drag show. I'm terrified of of course, terrified of

702
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 3: gate gay men, right because it is I am one.

703
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:50,319
Speaker 3: So I go to this thing and I'm sitting at

704
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:52,279
Speaker 3: this table with all these strangers I don't know, and

705
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 3: the place is just and again, it's sort of like

706
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 3: going to those Bible studies when I was in high school,

707
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 3: where it's like I was in this room with all

708
00:34:58,239 --> 00:34:59,840
Speaker 3: these people who were just really happy to see me,

709
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 3: and everybody was just having fun, and I was like, Wow,

710
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 3: this really feels just just really feels great. And I

711
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,720
Speaker 3: watched the show was super fun, and then afterwards everybody

712
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 3: just kind of went back out into the lobby and

713
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,719
Speaker 3: the bar and we were all just talking and just

714
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:18,160
Speaker 3: talking to some guys just literally that's all I did.

715
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:20,359
Speaker 3: I was just talk talked to a couple of gay

716
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 3: guys and we're just talking about life and and just

717
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:26,399
Speaker 3: hearing them talk about their lives as their lives was

718
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:29,479
Speaker 3: such a wake up call to me about the fact

719
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 3: that I didn't have a life, and that really kind

720
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 3: of triggered me. And it was like, you know, this

721
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:36,919
Speaker 3: guy I was talking I was just told this friend

722
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:39,480
Speaker 3: to one of my gay friends the other night, and

723
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:41,920
Speaker 3: I said, I was, I'm there, I'm talking to this

724
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 3: guy and he's telling me about his husband and how

725
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 3: long's they been together? And he asked me, you know,

726
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 3: if I was, you know, if I was in a relationship,

727
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 3: and I said no, and then he goes, well have

728
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 3: you been or you know, who do you date? What's

729
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 3: going on? And I started to realize that although I

730
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 3: had never really been a in a relationship with a guy,

731
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 3: I had had a a friend for twelve years. It's

732
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 3: my friend who stopped talking to me after I told

733
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 3: him I was changing my name.

734
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 4: I mentioned that to you, right, yeah, this is before

735
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 4: we started recording. But you wanted to go by.

736
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 3: G right right, I was changing my name, and yeah,

737
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:17,280
Speaker 3: he was not having it. So then I realized, holy crap,

738
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,399
Speaker 3: I was in love with that guy for twelve years,

739
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,839
Speaker 3: which is and our relationship was very tumultuous because I was.

740
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 3: I was so in love with him, and I had

741
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 3: no idea how to express that except through negativity and

742
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:34,240
Speaker 3: pushing people away, because that's what that's what I was taught.

743
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:36,719
Speaker 3: And that's when it kind of hit me. I was like,

744
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 3: holy shit, Like that's where my emotional core is, That's

745
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 3: where my love was with this guy. So it really

746
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 3: kind of awakened me to that. And I had what

747
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:52,799
Speaker 3: I call my gay epiphany there in Chicago, and it

748
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 3: was on the heels of a lot of epiphanies I

749
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 3: was having about myself post tsunami. That was where it

750
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 3: all flip for me, Like I had come back from

751
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 3: that tsunami and everyone was taught you know, people love

752
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 3: to tell you that you were saved from that because

753
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:09,360
Speaker 3: God has a plan for you.

754
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:12,319
Speaker 4: I hate it. I fucking hate it. It's so mean

755
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 4: to the people who died.

756
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 2: Oh, never mind all of those symptoms, yeah, right.

757
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:18,959
Speaker 3: And all I kept thinking about was all of those

758
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 3: broken people that we were carrying down. I was like,

759
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 3: you're telling me that God spares me and not all

760
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 3: of these other people. This is I think of religion

761
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 3: really as as being thinly veiled selfishness or narcissism. Interesting,

762
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 3: It's all about you and how you are so special

763
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 3: that God God shines down on you, but not all

764
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 3: of these these other these other people.

765
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:44,920
Speaker 2: Right, We're in this special group and no one else

766
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 2: gets the privileges that we get because we're in this

767
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 2: special group.

768
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 3: Like yeah, And so that was my big wake up

769
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 3: to like, uh no, And in my mind, the way

770
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:56,920
Speaker 3: my mind worked was this is just my luck. I

771
00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 3: survive a one in a you know, bajillion chance of

772
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:03,759
Speaker 3: something happening, and the reward for me is I just

773
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 3: get to go back to my dumb fucking life. I

774
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 3: was like, no, no, this is great. I literally just

775
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 3: went to hell and back, and my reward for it

776
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:14,879
Speaker 3: is just getting to fucking you know, the same shit

777
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:16,799
Speaker 3: I was already doing. You know, like some people win

778
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 3: the lottery, and I was like, oh, my life great.

779
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:19,919
Speaker 4: Yeah.

780
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:22,759
Speaker 2: The third friend that you're with was he okay, oh,

781
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 2: so you.

782
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 3: Know, you learn a lot about people. Let's just clarify,

783
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 3: not my friend he was.

784
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 4: He was.

785
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 3: I thought he was becoming my friend. And you learn

786
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 3: a lot about people in a life or death situation,

787
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 3: just as we are doing now really with this pandemic,

788
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 3: because you really get to there are people that you

789
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 3: thought you knew and then you now see them completely

790
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:48,279
Speaker 3: falling apart in crazy fucking ways. Yeah, right, because of

791
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 3: because of COVID nineteen and and the lockdowns and stuff,

792
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 3: and you're like, wow, this is where you're really at

793
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 3: when the shit hits the fan. Yeah, And that was

794
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 3: this guy lost his mind. He's really horrible. And what

795
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 3: it told me a man who already has a lot

796
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 3: of trust issues, because when you grow up not being

797
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 3: able to trust your parents, you realize, very cool, you

798
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:13,440
Speaker 3: can't trust anybody. Yeah, and then that's the albatross that

799
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 3: you carry around your neck. I was like, wow, when

800
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 3: we get back, I'm not hanging out with this guy

801
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,240
Speaker 3: at all. And of course, you know, he's really horrible.

802
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:23,240
Speaker 3: And then he ended up screwing over my friend Melanie

803
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:24,960
Speaker 3: on some stuff when we got back. Oh, you know,

804
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 3: he's not a good guy. This was all earned in Thailand.

805
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:31,359
Speaker 2: Was he like survival instincts like only me kind of things?

806
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:35,839
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, and his survival instincts only me, which when

807
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:38,760
Speaker 3: people do tend to be like that, their survival instincts

808
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 3: only me are actually not survival instincts because that's not

809
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 3: how you survive, right, So it was really just about

810
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:49,360
Speaker 3: him and what he was really doing was destroying everything,

811
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 3: so instead of actually trying to survive by helping. Yeah,

812
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:57,799
Speaker 3: there was all of these epiphanies I was having about

813
00:39:57,800 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 3: myself and my life and where I kind of fit

814
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 3: into life. That really kind of opened my eyes and

815
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,400
Speaker 3: so that was like I was like, oh, yeah, okay,

816
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 3: this is I have to start doing some more work

817
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 3: on myself. I have to this is what I've learned

818
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 3: about me and my relationship to other people and how

819
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:18,239
Speaker 3: I handle things. I was very happy with the way

820
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 3: I kind of conducted myself and handled myself in that

821
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:23,879
Speaker 3: worst case scenario. Are the things I wish I could

822
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:29,319
Speaker 3: have done differently, Yes, but I would say given my shortcomings,

823
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 3: I think I stepped up to the plate pretty well. Yeah.

824
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 3: So I had this big gay epiphany. I came home

825
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:39,879
Speaker 3: from that trip to Chicago, and I, at the age

826
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:42,680
Speaker 3: of the ripe old age of about thirty eight years old,

827
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:46,400
Speaker 3: I came out to everybody, Wow, to myself, to everybody.

828
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:48,799
Speaker 3: I even wrote a letter to that guy that I

829
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:51,480
Speaker 3: had been in love with and just to say, you know, hey,

830
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:53,880
Speaker 3: I think this is where I was, This is what

831
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:56,440
Speaker 3: I was feeling during a time when I didn't know

832
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 3: what my feelings were right, and I just wanted to

833
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:02,279
Speaker 3: say that. So, you know, I did all of that

834
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 3: kind of stuff and really just started trying to live

835
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 3: my life for you know, who I am and that

836
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,319
Speaker 3: kind of thing. And then at the age of forty eight,

837
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 3: ten years later, I stopped talking to my mom on

838
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 3: Mother's Day. Whoa nice after the Mother's Day thing, and

839
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:22,879
Speaker 3: I was like, you know what, this is the one

840
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:26,920
Speaker 3: toxic relationship I have not voided myself of in the

841
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 3: last ten years, and it's the one that really stands

842
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:31,719
Speaker 3: in my way of being able to make a life

843
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:35,040
Speaker 3: for myself. It was easily one of the most difficult

844
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:38,720
Speaker 3: decisions I've ever made, and I was racked with guilt

845
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 3: about it for many years. But now it's I think

846
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 3: it's been about seven years or so, seven or eight years,

847
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 3: and I'm fine. I'm fine with it.

848
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:46,440
Speaker 1: Yeah.

849
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so hard for people to cut off familial

850
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:54,319
Speaker 2: familial relationships. We feel this obligation, like, but it's my family. Like,

851
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:56,760
Speaker 2: I don't know if you were like, maybe there's something

852
00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:59,360
Speaker 2: there that underneath you know.

853
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:01,840
Speaker 3: You're constantly trying to get them to be the parent

854
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,839
Speaker 3: that you need them to be. They will never be that, right,

855
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 3: you know. She's just continues the same cycles of abuse

856
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 3: over and over again. And I was like, I'm still

857
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 3: trying to recover myself. Yeah, and every time I'm with

858
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 3: her it's more abuse and more abuse.

859
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:22,440
Speaker 2: Well, in that case, congratulations, and I commend you on

860
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:25,240
Speaker 2: cutting out your mother because that sounds like the healthy

861
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:25,799
Speaker 2: thing to do.

862
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you feel free completely? Do you still have

863
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:32,920
Speaker 1: the stuff in you that you can't disintegrate.

864
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,439
Speaker 3: I don't know that anyone ever feels free. I do

865
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:40,360
Speaker 3: feel like there's stuff that I'm still absolutely still working through.

866
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:43,799
Speaker 3: There were periods of my career where I just put

867
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:48,240
Speaker 3: everything about my emotional well being on the back burner

868
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:51,279
Speaker 3: while I just kind of kept trying to work. Yeah,

869
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 3: I'm really good at working.

870
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:55,240
Speaker 2: I can relate.

871
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 3: I always managed to kind of rise to the top

872
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:04,360
Speaker 3: of whatever thing I was doing right, and I would

873
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:07,279
Speaker 3: just sort of focus on that and everything else around

874
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:09,239
Speaker 3: me I would sort of ignore, and I would just

875
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:10,759
Speaker 3: kind of rise to the top and rise the top,

876
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 3: and so I feel like I had a I feel

877
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:15,400
Speaker 3: like I had a pretty good career as a casting director.

878
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:19,719
Speaker 3: I'm assuming I still have one, and we'll find out

879
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 3: after this podcast. No, I'm still doing work on myself.

880
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:26,880
Speaker 3: I see a therapist every week and a gay men's

881
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:30,359
Speaker 3: relationship coach every week. Now these are things I've only

882
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:36,040
Speaker 3: started doing again recently. The pandemic lockdown really opened my

883
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 3: eyes to some more things about myself, because I am

884
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 3: sort of an isolated person who tends to keep friends

885
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:45,799
Speaker 3: at bay so that people think I'm always fine. And

886
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 3: that I handle things well. And that left me in

887
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 3: the pandemic being alone with my dogs all the time,

888
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 3: which I used to think was great, like that was

889
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 3: my dream. Yeah, And then it turns out that that

890
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:01,400
Speaker 3: in reality, I don't want to move away to the

891
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:03,680
Speaker 3: woods and live by myself. Off of.

892
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 1: I came to that conclusion, myself is like yeah, same.

893
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:12,040
Speaker 3: So I started like thinking like, gosh, I feel like

894
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 3: I'm so alone. You know, I work in show business,

895
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 3: so I feel like I have a thousand friends. And

896
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:18,400
Speaker 3: I was like, I've got I've got like a thousand friends,

897
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:21,480
Speaker 3: and nobody's checking in on me. I'm checking in on

898
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 3: a few people, but nobody's checking back in on me.

899
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:27,920
Speaker 3: And I started to think about like, okay, well what

900
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:30,280
Speaker 3: is that. And I'm like, well, I don't have a thousand friends.

901
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:35,080
Speaker 3: I have thousands of acquaintances, right, And those acquaintances are

902
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 3: you know, on a hierarchy of you know, close acquaintances

903
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:41,319
Speaker 3: and business acquaintances and stuff like that. Right, So I thought, well,

904
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 3: I've got all these great acquaintances. I can't really expect

905
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:48,400
Speaker 3: them to behave like my close friends. They're my acquaintances.

906
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 3: And everybody right now is going through their right, their

907
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 3: own stuff. Yeah, So I thought, well, who are who

908
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:56,879
Speaker 3: are my close friends? And I figured, well, I've got

909
00:44:56,880 --> 00:44:59,480
Speaker 3: about four of them. So I started reaching out to

910
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:02,839
Speaker 3: those friends and really telling them, really for the first

911
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:05,800
Speaker 3: time in my life, like how well I'm not doing

912
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:09,480
Speaker 3: and how depressed I was and how despondent I was,

913
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 3: and that in turn, I was like, I need to

914
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 3: be a better friend to my friends in order for

915
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:18,799
Speaker 3: my friends to see what I need. Yeah, And that

916
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:21,799
Speaker 3: ended up being fantastic for me and all of my

917
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 3: close friendships. It has made me a better friend, which

918
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:28,440
Speaker 3: I think makes me a better person. I am getting better,

919
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 3: I'm my friend relationships are better, and it's helped me

920
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 3: to make a couple new friends along the way. So

921
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:41,640
Speaker 3: that's been great for a guy who has been stuck

922
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 3: in the cult of the Christian religion, which is you know,

923
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 3: which is of course compromised of about a thousand different cults. Yes,

924
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:55,960
Speaker 3: overall it's just all a cult and kind of breaking

925
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 3: out of that and finding myself and it's a you know,

926
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 3: it's a daily thing. The two of you go through

927
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 3: this as well.

928
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:05,120
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, for me, it's it's slightly different, it's

929
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 2: less I feel like the religious beliefs are finally gone.

930
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 2: But I really relate to a lot of what you

931
00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:13,880
Speaker 2: said about keeping everyone sort of at arm's length or

932
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 2: not really telling people how you're doing. And I don't

933
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:18,239
Speaker 2: know if that has anything. It probably just has to

934
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:20,759
Speaker 2: do with other fucked up shit from my childhood. But

935
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:25,440
Speaker 2: like I do definitely like whatever, it's all an ongoing struggle. Yeah,

936
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:29,239
Speaker 2: I was curious, is there a particular like leader or

937
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:33,279
Speaker 2: preacher or pastor or anyone that you hear in your

938
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:35,759
Speaker 2: head or that you like had a hard time sort

939
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:37,880
Speaker 2: of ridding yourself of the influence.

940
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 3: I had a hard time relieving myself of the influence

941
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:45,920
Speaker 3: really of Pastor Chuck Smith at Calvary Chapel. I very

942
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:50,279
Speaker 3: distinctly remember going to see him speak one evening. It

943
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 3: was like a Wednesday night Bible study or something like that.

944
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 3: It was, you know, and it was a big deal

945
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:59,080
Speaker 3: to go see Pastor Chuck, and I was super excited.

946
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:01,320
Speaker 3: And this is you know, this is like maybe nineteen

947
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:04,239
Speaker 3: eighty two. These are the things I remember from that.

948
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 3: He had just come back from a trip to Israel,

949
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:09,840
Speaker 3: where he was talking about how amazing his trip to

950
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:12,520
Speaker 3: Israel was and how he spent so much time with

951
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 3: all of these Jewish people, and how the Jews were

952
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:22,319
Speaker 3: so were so amazing and so fantastic, and they had

953
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:25,960
Speaker 3: such a community and such a such a zeal for

954
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:28,880
Speaker 3: the Old Testament, but it was such a shame that

955
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:32,080
Speaker 3: they were all going to go to hell, yeah, for

956
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:36,400
Speaker 3: not believing in Jesus. And I was like, God, that

957
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:41,920
Speaker 3: really is those poor Jews. And then talking about how

958
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 3: AIDS had come about because gay men were fucking chimpanzees

959
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:52,239
Speaker 3: in Africa. Oh my god, how destitute gay people are

960
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:55,640
Speaker 3: and degenerates, and how that is now killing so many

961
00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:59,440
Speaker 3: people that, of course could be you know, could be

962
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 3: good peace people if only they would give their life

963
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:06,719
Speaker 3: to Jesus. And like that, I mean I still remember that,

964
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 3: and that's like nineteen eighty one or something, and like

965
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 3: that was like those stuck with me, like like that

966
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 3: was true, right, and because it especially the gay stuff,

967
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:20,480
Speaker 3: and I was like, I'm fucked because I've got this

968
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:23,919
Speaker 3: secret and uh, and I don't want to I don't

969
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:28,400
Speaker 3: want to fuck a chimpanzee. I mean, I'd settle for

970
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:30,200
Speaker 3: a hand job in the men's room from this cute

971
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 3: guy who's sitting twos over, and I had not even

972
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:41,799
Speaker 3: considered Chimpanzee as an Africa and just all of those

973
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:46,120
Speaker 3: people with that rhetoric that is constantly being taught to you,

974
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:48,040
Speaker 3: and then it had really been taught to me even

975
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 3: from an early age, and I had felt I really

976
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:53,160
Speaker 3: had felt like I had moved like my father was

977
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:55,239
Speaker 3: really horrible, and so for me, I was like, I

978
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:56,759
Speaker 3: was really happy not to be a part of the

979
00:48:56,760 --> 00:48:59,760
Speaker 3: Catholic Church, and I was I could see the Catholic

980
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 3: Church for you know, being you know, nothing, nothing less

981
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:07,719
Speaker 3: than just a witch's cabal of of you know, of

982
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:08,280
Speaker 3: de Siede.

983
00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:10,919
Speaker 4: Now you sound like my parents.

984
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:18,880
Speaker 3: I still believe that's true. But yeah, I had felt

985
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 3: like I felt like I was in the right place,

986
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:23,839
Speaker 3: but that I was so wrong, like I was so

987
00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:25,560
Speaker 3: full of sin. You know. It's that whole thing that

988
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:28,640
Speaker 3: you know, we are, that we ourselves are so unworthy

989
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:31,440
Speaker 3: and full of sin, and that the only out we

990
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:35,239
Speaker 3: have is to uh is to accept Jesus Christ. And

991
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:37,200
Speaker 3: you know, none of it really if you sit down

992
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:38,839
Speaker 3: and you break break it down, of course it didn't.

993
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 3: The logic isn't even there, none of it, none of

994
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:45,640
Speaker 3: it makes sense, So uh Yeah, so getting past all

995
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 3: of that was really really hard, really hard for me.

996
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 3: And I see it in my I see it in

997
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 3: my family. I have a I have a half brother

998
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:57,800
Speaker 3: that's fifteen years younger than me. That that I don't

999
00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:00,319
Speaker 3: see was my dad from my dad's second marriage, and

1000
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:03,319
Speaker 3: I remember seeing him really wrestling with a lot of

1001
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:05,960
Speaker 3: a lot of religious stuff too, because my dad was

1002
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 3: such a deep, dark, angry ex Catholic but who's still

1003
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 3: believed in God. Did you know the great thing about religion,

1004
00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:16,800
Speaker 3: it's kind of like the law. When you hire a

1005
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:20,840
Speaker 3: lawyer to get you off if you break the law.

1006
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:23,319
Speaker 3: You know, it's like, well, here's the law, and now

1007
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 3: the lawyer is going to look for any loopholes that

1008
00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:31,919
Speaker 3: can get you excused for breaking the law, right, right,

1009
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:34,799
Speaker 3: And that's exactly what all of these Christians, well all

1010
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:37,640
Speaker 3: of these religions do. Yeah, here's the law, and then

1011
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:40,480
Speaker 3: we all try to work on different loopholes that we

1012
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:41,480
Speaker 3: think we can find.

1013
00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:44,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, they all find different things to like obsess on

1014
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 1: to you know, like my family's very obsessed with the

1015
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:50,000
Speaker 1: laws of not cutting your hair for women and covering

1016
00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:52,879
Speaker 1: yourself in whatever, but not obsessed with the law where

1017
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:56,480
Speaker 1: it says like be joyful and whatever, because it's just

1018
00:50:56,600 --> 00:50:57,240
Speaker 1: so weird.

1019
00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:01,799
Speaker 2: I'm like, why, yeah, alcohol versus caffeine? And can your

1020
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:03,520
Speaker 2: shirt go to your shoulders or does it have to

1021
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:05,319
Speaker 2: go to your elbows or does it have to go to.

1022
00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:09,399
Speaker 1: Like obesity wasn't a sin in my religion, but everything else,

1023
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 1: you know, and like I don't think anything should be

1024
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:13,759
Speaker 1: a sin, but it was just interesting that we all

1025
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:16,799
Speaker 1: had to eat our feelings and then that was fine.

1026
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:19,440
Speaker 2: Okay, right, a couple of things, Yeah, a couple of

1027
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:22,440
Speaker 2: things should be a sin, probably, but yeah, yeah, not

1028
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:23,600
Speaker 2: the majority of it.

1029
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:25,440
Speaker 4: It just glutton me, you know whatever.

1030
00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:28,040
Speaker 1: Like that was the one thing that was fine because

1031
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:31,839
Speaker 1: I don't know why, but that my whole family.

1032
00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:35,840
Speaker 2: Was bully Mick like, you know, yeah versus Gwen what's

1033
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:37,640
Speaker 2: her face? Megachurch lady?

1034
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:39,279
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, what was it called?

1035
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:40,120
Speaker 2: The way down?

1036
00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:41,880
Speaker 4: The Way Down on HBO, Gwen Shamblain.

1037
00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:44,239
Speaker 2: I was gonna say, yeah, so whereas that's the sin

1038
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:45,359
Speaker 2: that she fixates on.

1039
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:48,440
Speaker 3: The most interesting Okay she had like.

1040
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:53,520
Speaker 1: A church of anorexiat Yeah basically yeah, yeah, I think

1041
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:56,719
Speaker 1: it is so inspiring how far you've come and how

1042
00:51:56,760 --> 00:51:59,719
Speaker 1: much it seems you've just like continued to discover yourself

1043
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:03,919
Speaker 1: and unpack new layers and become a better person and grow.

1044
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:05,240
Speaker 2: I just think that's really awesome.

1045
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:08,760
Speaker 1: I hope every person struggling with their sexuality and religion

1046
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:12,799
Speaker 1: can listen to this iconic episode because you really lay

1047
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:13,600
Speaker 1: it out well.

1048
00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:16,040
Speaker 3: Thanks, it's you know, like having listened to a bunch

1049
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:19,959
Speaker 3: of your episodes and stuff and your own journeys. It's

1050
00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:24,799
Speaker 3: you know, the mainstream of Christian religion. A lot of

1051
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:27,960
Speaker 3: people sit in that and think, well, I'm not part

1052
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:32,320
Speaker 3: of Megan's cult or Lola's cult, yeah, or this particular

1053
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:36,879
Speaker 3: guest cult, like you know, God Bless America. So it's like, well,

1054
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:40,160
Speaker 3: it's it's still a cult, right, And all of these

1055
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:43,040
Speaker 3: cults are really just all these religions which I think

1056
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:46,799
Speaker 3: of are really just cults. They're all really businesses. If

1057
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:49,759
Speaker 3: you look at like the like the Lutheran Church, now

1058
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:55,839
Speaker 3: of course welcomes LGBTQYA parishioners. Well, of course they do,

1059
00:52:56,040 --> 00:53:00,600
Speaker 3: because nobody else is going to the Lutheran Church anymore.

1060
00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:03,879
Speaker 4: They all left right to.

1061
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:07,000
Speaker 3: Go off to the mega churches or to whatever other

1062
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:09,640
Speaker 3: whatever other church, and they were left with a bunch

1063
00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:12,440
Speaker 3: of real estate that they were paying on and a

1064
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:14,719
Speaker 3: lot of churches. Their business was going under. Oh well,

1065
00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:17,399
Speaker 3: I guess now we better. Oh now, hey, guess what,

1066
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:20,920
Speaker 3: We've got women pastors, and you can you can, if

1067
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:21,919
Speaker 3: you're gay, you can come.

1068
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:22,920
Speaker 2: How convenient?

1069
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:28,360
Speaker 3: How and then right for their wallets, and I feel

1070
00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:31,920
Speaker 3: like and it just makes me furious they all changed

1071
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:35,920
Speaker 3: their stories when the business model starts to falter.

1072
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:38,839
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Mormons did not allow black people to hold

1073
00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:42,480
Speaker 2: the priesthood until like nineteen seventy something. Y's sick and

1074
00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:44,799
Speaker 2: then they're like, oh, I guess people aren't into this,

1075
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:47,560
Speaker 2: we should probably change that. Same with polygamy. They only

1076
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:50,040
Speaker 2: got rid of it because they realized that they had

1077
00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 2: to to exist. Like, yeah, this stuff is all arbitrary.

1078
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:56,000
Speaker 3: I'm really shocked at how at how much the Catholic

1079
00:53:56,120 --> 00:54:00,400
Speaker 3: Church really continues to double down on women's report active

1080
00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:04,680
Speaker 3: rights and homophobia and all of those things. I'm really

1081
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:08,880
Speaker 3: I'm really surprised that they they're not that they're not

1082
00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:11,040
Speaker 3: trying to flip the script a little bit, but I

1083
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:13,120
Speaker 3: guess they're still powerful enough worldwide.

1084
00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:14,919
Speaker 4: Yeah, they scared everyone enough.

1085
00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:18,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's really the the you go there to get

1086
00:54:18,560 --> 00:54:19,600
Speaker 3: away from those things.

1087
00:54:19,640 --> 00:54:21,720
Speaker 1: So I will say that I saw that the pope

1088
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:23,319
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago or I don't know when,

1089
00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:26,120
Speaker 1: but was like, if UFOs are real, it does not

1090
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:29,359
Speaker 1: mean Jesus wasn't also real. And I was like, oh shit,

1091
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:32,600
Speaker 1: the Catholic Church knows we're about to meet UFOs and

1092
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:34,720
Speaker 1: we're like setting the stage.

1093
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:37,000
Speaker 4: So yeah, it's pretty crazy.

1094
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:40,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, is there anything else that you'd like to add?

1095
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:45,000
Speaker 3: Well, having grown up in the flip flopping around of

1096
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:49,360
Speaker 3: these Christian cults, having lived in a in a cult

1097
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:52,880
Speaker 3: of one in my house with my mom and my grandma,

1098
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:55,680
Speaker 3: who you know, the big rule was, don't talk to

1099
00:54:55,719 --> 00:54:58,000
Speaker 3: anybody about what we do in the house, don't talk

1100
00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:00,920
Speaker 3: about our personal lives to anyone that you know, don't

1101
00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:03,839
Speaker 3: have your friends over. I feel like I've just been

1102
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:07,319
Speaker 3: through the real ringer on all of these things and

1103
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:10,680
Speaker 3: coming out of it as a fucking daily struggle. The

1104
00:55:10,719 --> 00:55:14,239
Speaker 3: best decisions I've made in my life have been the

1105
00:55:14,239 --> 00:55:18,480
Speaker 3: ones where I've taken a chance on myself and I

1106
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:21,040
Speaker 3: did that. I did that for myself at thirty three,

1107
00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:24,000
Speaker 3: when I started over with a career that I had

1108
00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:26,520
Speaker 3: an opportunity to jump on that. A few years earlier,

1109
00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:28,759
Speaker 3: I would have been I was still too afraid to

1110
00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:32,080
Speaker 3: take a chance on myself with you know, coming out

1111
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:38,160
Speaker 3: and being honest about who I am and was from

1112
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:40,719
Speaker 3: a sexual orientation standpoint was a big one for me.

1113
00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 3: I feel like I cover like three or four of

1114
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:48,440
Speaker 3: the alphabet Mafia letters. And really just doing that and

1115
00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:51,879
Speaker 3: then just continuing to work myself into be honest with

1116
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:54,560
Speaker 3: my friends has been a big deal for me because

1117
00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:58,680
Speaker 3: when you grow up being raised by narcissists or sociopaths,

1118
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:03,280
Speaker 3: a lot of the behavior you learn in interpersonal communications

1119
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:07,480
Speaker 3: and with yourself are narcissistics of course, of course behavioral patterns,

1120
00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:13,080
Speaker 3: And then you find yourself in relationships where I'm positive

1121
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:16,680
Speaker 3: that half of the relationships I've been in are with

1122
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:19,719
Speaker 3: people who think they were in the relationship with the

1123
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:24,840
Speaker 3: narcissist because of the way that I behaved right interesting.

1124
00:56:24,440 --> 00:56:24,520
Speaker 2: And.

1125
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:27,719
Speaker 3: So then it became a big thing like, well, am

1126
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:32,080
Speaker 3: I am I the narcissist and really trying to know

1127
00:56:32,320 --> 00:56:34,719
Speaker 3: I think we all know that if you're having that

1128
00:56:34,800 --> 00:56:38,040
Speaker 3: conversation with yourself, you're not right.

1129
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:38,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, but.

1130
00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:43,640
Speaker 3: But yeah, and so really figuring out, okay, well, what

1131
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:46,239
Speaker 3: are those things that I was doing and why and

1132
00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:49,960
Speaker 3: working through them just to make myself, to make myself,

1133
00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:52,480
Speaker 3: not even so much a better person, but to make

1134
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:57,279
Speaker 3: myself my person, to just be me. I find makes

1135
00:56:57,320 --> 00:57:01,280
Speaker 3: it easier for me to accept my friends, to accept others.

1136
00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:05,160
Speaker 3: It helps all of my relationships to get stronger. It

1137
00:57:05,239 --> 00:57:08,040
Speaker 3: helps me in my teaching, like I in addition to casting,

1138
00:57:08,080 --> 00:57:11,640
Speaker 3: I run an audition technique studio that I've been doing

1139
00:57:11,640 --> 00:57:14,720
Speaker 3: for like eighteen years, and I find that the stuff

1140
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:18,640
Speaker 3: that I teach about auditioning for actors, all of it

1141
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:22,080
Speaker 3: because acting is so much like acting as human behavior,

1142
00:57:22,360 --> 00:57:25,040
Speaker 3: so so much of the stuff that I drill in

1143
00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:27,600
Speaker 3: my classes is really the same stuff I have to

1144
00:57:27,680 --> 00:57:32,800
Speaker 3: drill as a human being, just living authentically and specifically

1145
00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:36,600
Speaker 3: as myself. So and I feel like for me to

1146
00:57:36,640 --> 00:57:39,160
Speaker 3: be a good teacher, I have to continue to be

1147
00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:43,320
Speaker 3: an even better student, and that's kind of what I

1148
00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:46,320
Speaker 3: strive to be every day. I went on my first

1149
00:57:46,400 --> 00:57:48,840
Speaker 3: date yesterday in two years.

1150
00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:50,840
Speaker 2: Wow, Congress.

1151
00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:53,360
Speaker 3: It was an hour and a half long, was very short.

1152
00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:54,680
Speaker 3: I'll never go out with him again.

1153
00:57:54,680 --> 00:57:57,400
Speaker 2: But it was still big steps.

1154
00:57:57,680 --> 00:58:00,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, big steps, big steps, but it was but it

1155
00:58:00,720 --> 00:58:03,400
Speaker 3: was good. It was good that I did it, And yeah,

1156
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:06,440
Speaker 3: just trying to just trying to connect on that level

1157
00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:08,240
Speaker 3: now for myself is a big step.

1158
00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:11,120
Speaker 1: Do you mind if I ask what living authentically and

1159
00:58:11,160 --> 00:58:14,120
Speaker 1: specifically it looks like a little bit more clearly, just

1160
00:58:14,120 --> 00:58:16,880
Speaker 1: for my own knowledge. Lola's an actress, so she probably

1161
00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:18,800
Speaker 1: gets it. I don't understand it, and I want too

1162
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:20,680
Speaker 1: so badly, and I want our listeners to get it

1163
00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:21,040
Speaker 1: as well.

1164
00:58:22,120 --> 00:58:26,640
Speaker 3: So so just living authentically and specifically is is being

1165
00:58:26,680 --> 00:58:30,920
Speaker 3: specific about what I want for myself in the different

1166
00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:34,280
Speaker 3: aspects of my life. What do I want from my relationships,

1167
00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:36,320
Speaker 3: what I want from my friend my friendships, what do

1168
00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:39,440
Speaker 3: I want from a romantic partner? What are the things

1169
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:44,280
Speaker 3: about me that I love? And focusing on those things

1170
00:58:44,760 --> 00:58:48,840
Speaker 3: instead of just focusing on the things I hate about myself?

1171
00:58:48,840 --> 00:58:51,680
Speaker 3: Like I'm really like, I was asked by my relationship

1172
00:58:51,720 --> 00:58:53,520
Speaker 3: coach to come up with a list of things that

1173
00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:56,640
Speaker 3: I like about myself, and I was. I thought I

1174
00:58:56,720 --> 00:59:00,400
Speaker 3: was really impressing him by coming up with ten. And

1175
00:59:02,520 --> 00:59:05,080
Speaker 3: because because in coming up with ten things I liked

1176
00:59:05,080 --> 00:59:07,120
Speaker 3: about myself, it may come as no surprise to either

1177
00:59:07,120 --> 00:59:08,800
Speaker 3: of you, I came up with fifty things I don't

1178
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:13,160
Speaker 3: about myself, and so he was encouraging me to come

1179
00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:15,520
Speaker 3: up with twenty and I said, well, I think I'm

1180
00:59:15,560 --> 00:59:19,440
Speaker 3: going to need your help coming up with those. So

1181
00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:22,880
Speaker 3: really like that, like what do I want from all

1182
00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:25,959
Speaker 3: of these aspects of my life? And what do I give?

1183
00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:31,120
Speaker 3: And just really focusing, so trying to focus on giving

1184
00:59:32,240 --> 00:59:35,880
Speaker 3: and on receiving, because if you're like me, who like you, guys,

1185
00:59:35,880 --> 00:59:40,360
Speaker 3: when we're so drawn to the narcissists in our lives

1186
00:59:39,360 --> 00:59:44,640
Speaker 3: through our religious upbringings, I tend to find that I

1187
00:59:44,720 --> 00:59:47,400
Speaker 3: will with the narcissist. I will put up and put

1188
00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:49,840
Speaker 3: up and put up and put up until I blow up. Yep.

1189
00:59:50,880 --> 00:59:53,800
Speaker 3: And then I blow up and I get angry, and

1190
00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:57,160
Speaker 3: then I get angry, and then I feel shame because

1191
00:59:57,200 --> 00:59:59,680
Speaker 3: I lost my temper and got angry. And then I

1192
00:59:59,720 --> 01:00:03,760
Speaker 3: come back to that narcissist and I apologize for my behavior.

1193
01:00:04,160 --> 01:00:05,720
Speaker 2: Oh.

1194
01:00:05,760 --> 01:00:10,760
Speaker 3: And so working through that and understanding that I can

1195
01:00:10,960 --> 01:00:16,960
Speaker 3: apologize for my behavior and still hold them accountable for theirs,

1196
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:21,480
Speaker 3: and quite frankly, distancing myself from those people. Those are

1197
01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:23,680
Speaker 3: not the people I want in my life. They are

1198
01:00:23,840 --> 01:00:26,760
Speaker 3: so much fun and so exciting to begin with. And

1199
01:00:26,800 --> 01:00:31,960
Speaker 3: when you feel like you can help those people. It's

1200
01:00:32,080 --> 01:00:34,920
Speaker 3: very attractive. Yeah, because I'm always trying to I'm always

1201
01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:36,680
Speaker 3: trying to find people that I can help because I

1202
01:00:36,680 --> 01:00:38,480
Speaker 3: feel like I spent so much of my life trying

1203
01:00:38,520 --> 01:00:43,600
Speaker 3: to help my mom and that was sort of my

1204
01:00:43,720 --> 01:00:47,600
Speaker 3: dad's emo. So yeah, so just trying to trying to

1205
01:00:47,640 --> 01:00:49,360
Speaker 3: find a way to work around that and just be

1206
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:51,640
Speaker 3: authentic with myself. Hey, this is what I like to do.

1207
01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:54,080
Speaker 3: These are the things I like to do. What are

1208
01:00:54,120 --> 01:00:57,040
Speaker 3: some things outside of my comfort zone that I should

1209
01:00:57,080 --> 01:01:01,800
Speaker 3: be trying in an effort to expand my horizons. I

1210
01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:04,640
Speaker 3: try something and if it's still not comfortable, that's fine,

1211
01:01:04,840 --> 01:01:07,640
Speaker 3: but maybe I find something new that I enjoy. So

1212
01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:10,080
Speaker 3: that's that's kind of my journey. That's kind of my

1213
01:01:10,160 --> 01:01:13,040
Speaker 3: journey now is just is just trying to step out

1214
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:15,479
Speaker 3: of my comfort zone but also accepting the things about

1215
01:01:15,480 --> 01:01:18,680
Speaker 3: myself that that do make me comfortable. I find that

1216
01:01:18,960 --> 01:01:21,120
Speaker 3: because I do like to I do like my alone time.

1217
01:01:21,160 --> 01:01:24,760
Speaker 3: I'm sort of an extroverted introvert. You would probably not

1218
01:01:24,840 --> 01:01:26,440
Speaker 3: know that by the way I run my mouth on

1219
01:01:26,520 --> 01:01:31,480
Speaker 3: this podcast, and I'm I'm fully aware that I'm doing that.

1220
01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:34,960
Speaker 2: No, you're not you're so engaging.

1221
01:01:35,040 --> 01:01:37,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I but yeah, So for me, it's like

1222
01:01:37,920 --> 01:01:41,200
Speaker 3: I really like alone time, but I have to I

1223
01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:44,600
Speaker 3: have to temper that because I like my alone time

1224
01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:48,560
Speaker 3: so much that before I know it, it is become isolation.

1225
01:01:50,000 --> 01:01:53,480
Speaker 3: And that's when I fall into depression and my anxieties

1226
01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:56,160
Speaker 3: get the best of me, and I stop, I stop

1227
01:01:56,200 --> 01:01:58,959
Speaker 3: being present in my own life. So I'm really trying

1228
01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:03,120
Speaker 3: to be aware of when I need downtime, taking that

1229
01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:07,480
Speaker 3: downtime and accepting it instead of hating myself for taking it,

1230
01:02:08,440 --> 01:02:11,400
Speaker 3: really taking it and then getting off the couch and

1231
01:02:11,480 --> 01:02:15,320
Speaker 3: getting back outside again and doing stuff. And that's difficult

1232
01:02:15,360 --> 01:02:18,760
Speaker 3: to do right now, of course, but trying to do

1233
01:02:18,880 --> 01:02:19,800
Speaker 3: as much of it as I.

1234
01:02:19,720 --> 01:02:23,400
Speaker 2: Can sounds great. It sounds like you're It's such a

1235
01:02:23,400 --> 01:02:26,120
Speaker 2: hard balance to strike between listening to what you want

1236
01:02:26,320 --> 01:02:28,560
Speaker 2: and actually pursuing what you need and what's uncomfortable.

1237
01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:30,920
Speaker 1: That's why we need help. That's why we need therapists

1238
01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:32,600
Speaker 1: and coaches.

1239
01:02:32,120 --> 01:02:32,880
Speaker 2: And good friends.

1240
01:02:32,920 --> 01:02:36,439
Speaker 4: Friends, and isolation does not work.

1241
01:02:36,560 --> 01:02:39,000
Speaker 3: It helps that I don't have any kids, because I

1242
01:02:39,040 --> 01:02:44,640
Speaker 3: can focus a lot on myself, and so I'm able

1243
01:02:44,680 --> 01:02:46,680
Speaker 3: to do a lot of work on me because I don't.

1244
01:02:46,720 --> 01:02:49,240
Speaker 3: I don't have any responsibilities. So then then taking care

1245
01:02:49,240 --> 01:02:52,880
Speaker 3: of a couple of dogs, which is you know, well.

1246
01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:54,680
Speaker 2: Those are children, that counts.

1247
01:02:55,120 --> 01:02:57,800
Speaker 3: It is an insturmountable task on some days just to

1248
01:02:57,840 --> 01:03:00,240
Speaker 3: take care of dogs. And of course dogs are much

1249
01:03:00,280 --> 01:03:04,240
Speaker 3: easier to take care of them, right, right, and they

1250
01:03:04,240 --> 01:03:05,280
Speaker 3: are far more forgiving.

1251
01:03:05,560 --> 01:03:12,960
Speaker 1: Thank you Jesus, Well, thank you so much for coming on.

1252
01:03:13,200 --> 01:03:14,320
Speaker 4: We learned a lot, I think.

1253
01:03:14,680 --> 01:03:16,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I really appreciate you sharing your story.

1254
01:03:16,920 --> 01:03:18,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks a lot, and I really appreciate you having

1255
01:03:18,920 --> 01:03:20,840
Speaker 3: this podcast. It's really been great to listen to and

1256
01:03:20,880 --> 01:03:24,080
Speaker 3: it's helped me tremendously. Just listening to other people's stories

1257
01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:24,800
Speaker 3: is really helpful.

1258
01:03:24,880 --> 01:03:26,040
Speaker 4: I agree, that's awesome.

1259
01:03:26,520 --> 01:03:28,919
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening and have a great day.

1260
01:03:29,160 --> 01:03:33,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks, thanks Megan, Thanks love well.

1261
01:03:33,480 --> 01:03:36,480
Speaker 2: Since g Charles Erman G Charles was not a member

1262
01:03:36,600 --> 01:03:40,360
Speaker 2: of a cult, technically we're gonna go off topic here.

1263
01:03:40,400 --> 01:03:42,400
Speaker 2: We're going a little side journey.

1264
01:03:42,600 --> 01:03:44,040
Speaker 4: Let's get a little side quest.

1265
01:03:44,440 --> 01:03:48,760
Speaker 2: So, based on this super fascinating story that he told

1266
01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:52,760
Speaker 2: us about being present for that tsunami, I guess I'm

1267
01:03:52,800 --> 01:03:56,920
Speaker 2: wondering if you ever been involved in any kind of

1268
01:03:56,960 --> 01:03:58,040
Speaker 2: like natural disaster.

1269
01:03:58,280 --> 01:04:02,320
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, the and Over a tornado. They just

1270
01:04:02,400 --> 01:04:04,920
Speaker 1: had another huge one. But my family lives in Andover,

1271
01:04:05,040 --> 01:04:08,560
Speaker 1: and I think it was like nineteen ninety four, one

1272
01:04:08,600 --> 01:04:11,720
Speaker 1: of the biggest tornadoes ever went right through and we

1273
01:04:11,800 --> 01:04:17,320
Speaker 1: saw it. It was petrifying lots of tornadoes. Being from Kansas, so.

1274
01:04:17,640 --> 01:04:20,400
Speaker 2: You saw it as in like from your home.

1275
01:04:20,840 --> 01:04:24,360
Speaker 1: Well, we were eating at the Red Lobster in Wichita,

1276
01:04:24,560 --> 01:04:29,400
Speaker 1: so we quickly drove back to Andover and it was

1277
01:04:29,520 --> 01:04:31,840
Speaker 1: just one of the scariest things that's ever happened to me.

1278
01:04:32,080 --> 01:04:35,200
Speaker 1: And then on that same note, I was actually on

1279
01:04:35,240 --> 01:04:40,360
Speaker 1: a cruise ship when the tsunami and Indonesia happened, and

1280
01:04:41,120 --> 01:04:45,600
Speaker 1: our ship almost tipped over, And I've always wondered was

1281
01:04:45,680 --> 01:04:48,480
Speaker 1: that connected, But I don't know because we were.

1282
01:04:48,320 --> 01:04:50,520
Speaker 4: Like just off the coast of Mexico, so how would

1283
01:04:50,560 --> 01:04:51,200
Speaker 4: that make sense.

1284
01:04:51,280 --> 01:04:56,000
Speaker 1: But we were having the roughest day at sea, and

1285
01:04:56,040 --> 01:05:00,040
Speaker 1: then at dinner time I ran upstairs to grab something

1286
01:05:00,200 --> 01:05:03,840
Speaker 1: and our ship went one way and then just rolled

1287
01:05:04,040 --> 01:05:07,000
Speaker 1: all the way the other way, and like glass was breaking,

1288
01:05:07,120 --> 01:05:09,800
Speaker 1: TVs were following out of the things.

1289
01:05:09,480 --> 01:05:11,520
Speaker 4: And I was just like, we're gonna die.

1290
01:05:11,720 --> 01:05:13,640
Speaker 1: And then when we docked that morning, there had been

1291
01:05:13,680 --> 01:05:14,800
Speaker 1: this huge tsunami.

1292
01:05:14,920 --> 01:05:16,640
Speaker 4: So I don't know how that.

1293
01:05:16,680 --> 01:05:18,080
Speaker 2: Is so fucking scary.

1294
01:05:18,160 --> 01:05:19,520
Speaker 4: It was awful. What about it?

1295
01:05:19,560 --> 01:05:24,320
Speaker 2: That's like my biggest Yeah, one of my biggest fears.

1296
01:05:24,600 --> 01:05:27,960
Speaker 2: I guess, well, we had tornado warnings in Michigan a lot,

1297
01:05:28,040 --> 01:05:31,000
Speaker 2: but I was never really close enough to one. I guess, like,

1298
01:05:31,440 --> 01:05:35,360
Speaker 2: we did have a really gnarly storm one night that

1299
01:05:35,480 --> 01:05:39,480
Speaker 2: was like tornado adjacent. And I remember, you know, we

1300
01:05:39,480 --> 01:05:41,440
Speaker 2: were on a farm, like in the middle of nowhere.

1301
01:05:41,520 --> 01:05:44,200
Speaker 2: So we have all this like hay in our pasture

1302
01:05:44,440 --> 01:05:48,200
Speaker 2: and and we have a barn, and I think my

1303
01:05:48,280 --> 01:05:51,400
Speaker 2: parents were gone, They're out of town. So I had

1304
01:05:51,400 --> 01:05:55,920
Speaker 2: this like great aunt or someone staying with us already nightmare, Yes,

1305
01:05:56,040 --> 01:05:57,800
Speaker 2: I already like didn't feel that comfortable with. And then

1306
01:05:57,800 --> 01:05:59,840
Speaker 2: I come down. The wind is blowing so hard that

1307
01:05:59,880 --> 01:06:02,160
Speaker 2: doors are locked and they're just blowing right open anyway,

1308
01:06:03,080 --> 01:06:05,800
Speaker 2: and it's like just my, you know, just this like woman,

1309
01:06:05,840 --> 01:06:08,240
Speaker 2: I don't really know there and I was like freaking out.

1310
01:06:08,560 --> 01:06:13,600
Speaker 2: And in the morning, the barn was gone. The barn

1311
01:06:13,800 --> 01:06:19,000
Speaker 2: was completely collapsed, and we had a full sized trampoline

1312
01:06:19,040 --> 01:06:21,360
Speaker 2: that was ripped to shreds. There was no trampoline left

1313
01:06:22,920 --> 01:06:27,240
Speaker 2: it really was quite sad. It's our ship was destroyed.

1314
01:06:27,480 --> 01:06:29,080
Speaker 4: Wow, not the trampoline.

1315
01:06:29,640 --> 01:06:33,400
Speaker 2: They took the trampoline. And then I remember sometimes we

1316
01:06:33,400 --> 01:06:36,120
Speaker 2: would see these well almost looked like mini tornadoes. It

1317
01:06:36,200 --> 01:06:37,959
Speaker 2: was just like, I guess, like the little dust bowl

1318
01:06:38,000 --> 01:06:39,920
Speaker 2: or whatever. But they always scare the shit out of me.

1319
01:06:40,080 --> 01:06:42,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, those aren't fun, but that's it.

1320
01:06:42,280 --> 01:06:44,920
Speaker 2: I mean earthquakes, I like never feel earthquakes in LA.

1321
01:06:45,080 --> 01:06:47,200
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm immune to feeling earthquakes.

1322
01:06:47,280 --> 01:06:49,840
Speaker 1: Well, not gone, what I'm sure you'll feel the big

1323
01:06:49,880 --> 01:06:52,080
Speaker 1: one that you know is coming for us.

1324
01:06:52,120 --> 01:06:57,240
Speaker 2: All yeah, well I'll be dead, so that's fine.

1325
01:06:58,480 --> 01:07:01,960
Speaker 1: Every Los Angeles just like b plann like, we'll obviously

1326
01:07:02,160 --> 01:07:06,680
Speaker 1: just be dead, so it's fine.

1327
01:07:06,840 --> 01:07:10,200
Speaker 2: Oh it's not not fun. Oh my god, that podcast

1328
01:07:10,280 --> 01:07:12,240
Speaker 2: the big one when it came out, fucking scared the

1329
01:07:12,280 --> 01:07:16,920
Speaker 2: ship out. Yeah it's not okay, But don't worry, guys,

1330
01:07:16,960 --> 01:07:19,720
Speaker 2: there will be plenty more natural disasters in the coming

1331
01:07:19,800 --> 01:07:26,200
Speaker 2: years thanks to climate change. Whoop wo okay, alright, all right, well.

1332
01:07:26,040 --> 01:07:30,880
Speaker 1: Thanks for spending another really cheerful end of the episode

1333
01:07:30,240 --> 01:07:32,400
Speaker 1: that we can't.

1334
01:07:32,120 --> 01:07:33,720
Speaker 4: Wait to see you here next week.

1335
01:07:34,200 --> 01:07:37,360
Speaker 1: Remember to follow your gut watch out for red flags

1336
01:07:37,520 --> 01:07:40,480
Speaker 1: and never ever checks

1337
01:07:42,400 --> 01:07:42,520
Speaker 3: Hi