WEBVTT - Raising Half a Billion Dollars to Fight AIDS 0:00:00.640 --> 0:00:04.000 But We Loved is a production of iHeart Podcasts and 0:00:04.040 --> 0:00:08.240 the Outspoken Podcast Network. Hey, this is Jordan with a 0:00:08.280 --> 0:00:11.840 quick note. After this episode, we just have two more 0:00:11.960 --> 0:00:15.160 before our season officially ends, and I have two things 0:00:15.200 --> 0:00:18.919 to ask you. First, if you haven't already, go follow 0:00:18.960 --> 0:00:22.560 me on Instagram or TikTok at your underscore again solve 0:00:23.239 --> 0:00:28.840 that's JR underscore g O n s A l v S. 0:00:29.480 --> 0:00:31.840 That way we can keep in touch and you can 0:00:31.920 --> 0:00:35.199 stay with me on my journey. And two, for our 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:39.000 season finale episode, I want to hear from you, so 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:42.000 send me a voice note on Instagram or email it 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:45.400 to but We Loved at gmail dot com and tell 0:00:45.440 --> 0:00:48.560 me what the show means to you. As always, I 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:51.080 couldn't do this without you, and thank you so much 0:00:51.080 --> 0:00:53.280 for the support. Now let's get into the show. 0:00:54.240 --> 0:00:57.640 In nineteen eighty four, myself and seven of my pals, 0:00:57.640 --> 0:00:58.200 seven of my. 0:00:58.200 --> 0:01:00.800 Friends, gay friends, friends. 0:01:00.640 --> 0:01:04.120 All involved in the theater a little bit. Somehow. We're 0:01:04.160 --> 0:01:08.120 all at brunch and we all started talking about what 0:01:08.560 --> 0:01:13.000 we were hearing stories about, and rather than be concerned 0:01:13.040 --> 0:01:18.720 about how we might be at risk, we were pushing 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:21.440 it away. How it was the older gay man. 0:01:21.680 --> 0:01:22.520 It felt far away. 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:26.679 It felt far away. That was nineteen eighty four. By 0:01:26.760 --> 0:01:30.280 nineteen ninety four of the eight of us four were 0:01:30.280 --> 0:01:34.880 dead and two, including myself, were HIV positive. 0:01:41.200 --> 0:01:43.759 As a gay kid, growing up religious and in the South, 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:46.200 I thought being gay was the worst thing I could 0:01:46.240 --> 0:01:49.920 ever be. Now, as a journalist, I'm trying to unlearn 0:01:50.000 --> 0:01:53.640 that by seeking out our history, and what I found 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:58.800 are people and stories full of courage, perseverance and love 0:01:59.480 --> 0:02:02.840 in this so we'll meet Tom Viola, one of the 0:02:02.880 --> 0:02:07.040 most important people in the fight against AIDS. Over the 0:02:07.080 --> 0:02:10.560 course of his career, he's raised nearly half a billion 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:13.960 dollars to combat the crisis. We'll learn how he got 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:17.520 involved and how, in addition to fighting the AIDS crisis, 0:02:18.000 --> 0:02:21.120 he was living it too. For my Heart podcast, I'm 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:48.200 Jordan and Solves and this is what we loved. I 0:02:48.240 --> 0:02:52.640 remember my first time hearing about PREP. Prep is the 0:02:52.680 --> 0:02:56.720 groundbreaking drug that is ninety nine percent preventable against HIV 0:02:56.960 --> 0:03:00.320 according to the federal government. I was fresh out of 0:03:00.360 --> 0:03:03.320 the closet and new to San Francisco, where i'd moved 0:03:03.320 --> 0:03:06.920 for my first job. I was really lucky to have 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:11.359 found this unbelievably confident group of gay friends who had 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:15.800 zero issues talking about sex. That was the opposite for me, 0:03:16.680 --> 0:03:22.320 growing up devoutly catholic. I felt embarrassed and shameful when 0:03:22.360 --> 0:03:26.079 friends would even bring up the topic, and frankly, I'd 0:03:26.160 --> 0:03:30.520 judged other gay men for being promiscuous. But I had 0:03:30.520 --> 0:03:33.480 a friend at the time who, in his own words, 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:38.760 described himself as a quote self proclaimed slut. I'd never 0:03:39.200 --> 0:03:41.680 even heard of this before, and when he said it, 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:46.880 my cheeks turned cherry red. I remember asking, aren't you 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:52.680 scared of HIV? I asked that because I was scared 0:03:52.680 --> 0:03:55.800 of it. He was far more informed than me on 0:03:55.880 --> 0:03:59.360 the topic and seemed to accept that sex was a 0:03:59.480 --> 0:04:03.080 natural part of his own life. He patiently asked me 0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:07.680 if I had ever heard of PREP. His explanation literally 0:04:07.800 --> 0:04:11.880 changed my life. My next guest, Tom Viola, has been 0:04:11.920 --> 0:04:14.920 one of the most important figures in the fight to 0:04:15.080 --> 0:04:19.000 drive access to PREP and to end the AIDS crisis. 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:22.440 For thirty six years, Tom was the leader of Broadway 0:04:22.520 --> 0:04:26.440 Cares Equity Fights AIDS, one of the most important AIDS 0:04:26.480 --> 0:04:30.880 nonprofits in America. Over the course of his career, he 0:04:31.040 --> 0:04:34.760 led the Broadway community in raising nearly half a billion 0:04:34.839 --> 0:04:39.279 dollars for the cause, helping save the lives of countless people. 0:04:40.120 --> 0:04:44.120 After a storied career defined by the AIDS crisis, he 0:04:44.200 --> 0:04:48.520 retired on December thirty first, twenty twenty four. But before 0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:52.080 becoming a leading voice for gay rights, he was a 0:04:52.120 --> 0:04:55.000 closeted young man in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. 0:05:00.920 --> 0:05:06.120 I was a quiet kid. So I was raised in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:08.840 south of the city, in sort of a nineteen sixties suburb. 0:05:09.200 --> 0:05:11.719 So the boys that I played with when I was 0:05:11.760 --> 0:05:15.320 particularly younger, we grew up together, and I can remember 0:05:16.240 --> 0:05:19.440 very distinctly and thought about this in a long time 0:05:19.880 --> 0:05:22.440 that one of the games we played when we got 0:05:22.440 --> 0:05:26.240 to be like a little more closer to being adolescents 0:05:26.400 --> 0:05:31.680 was a game that goes called Smear the Queer. And 0:05:31.720 --> 0:05:33.800 that's where we would all be in somebody's backyard and 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:37.039 somebody would have like a volleyball, and somebody would throw 0:05:37.080 --> 0:05:39.560 it up in the air, and then whoever caught the 0:05:39.600 --> 0:05:42.920 ball would run and everybody else would run after him 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:48.840 to tackle him, or hence the name supposedly Shmear the Queer. 0:05:49.279 --> 0:05:53.440 And I even at that, you know, as like again 0:05:53.520 --> 0:05:57.240 probably like fifth sixth you know, pre ad asolescent kid. 0:05:58.160 --> 0:06:02.120 I got that that wasn't so whether that was having 0:06:02.160 --> 0:06:05.640 a sense that I was gay, I certainly didn't know 0:06:05.640 --> 0:06:09.039 what that was about at all, but I felt separate. 0:06:09.600 --> 0:06:14.760 Well, that leads so perfectly into my next question, At 0:06:14.800 --> 0:06:18.080 what point did you know that you were gay? 0:06:19.080 --> 0:06:23.120 You know, I I knew, I knew what piqued my interest. 0:06:23.200 --> 0:06:25.360 I don't know that it was necessarily sexual interest at 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:27.760 that time. I got up early Saturday morning when I 0:06:27.760 --> 0:06:30.200 was a little kid, like literally at seven or eight 0:06:30.240 --> 0:06:34.120 in the morning, to watch Tarzan Wow, and I had, 0:06:34.200 --> 0:06:38.280 I know, was about Johnny Weismuller in his you know, 0:06:38.680 --> 0:06:42.040 very sexy long class. And one of the kids I 0:06:42.080 --> 0:06:45.480 grew up with his name was down And when we 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:49.920 were about in eighth grade, what began as wrestling with 0:06:50.000 --> 0:06:54.680 each other turned into more than wrestling with each other, 0:06:55.720 --> 0:07:00.080 and that continued, you know, that was like seventh eighth grade. 0:07:00.160 --> 0:07:02.560 And then at about right before we went into ninth grade, 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:04.279 he literally looked at me and he said, we can't 0:07:04.279 --> 0:07:07.559 do this anymore. Wow. You know, we're going into high school. 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:10.360 We can't do this anymore. Wow. And I remember sort 0:07:10.360 --> 0:07:14.040 of being like, what does high school have to do. 0:07:14.080 --> 0:07:15.960 With this, were you rejected? 0:07:16.520 --> 0:07:18.600 Yes, I mean I realized now as I even just 0:07:18.640 --> 0:07:21.920 say it and sort of felt the conversation again. Yeah, 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:25.400 it felt like what I would now say was like 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:30.160 someone breaking up with me. And what I really made 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:34.160 a point of doing in both high schools I went 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:36.360 to with the freshman sophomore and then the second one 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:41.480 junior in particular junior and senior year, was making sure 0:07:41.560 --> 0:07:47.600 I was always able to pass. I sort of kept 0:07:47.920 --> 0:07:52.480 everybody at bay because meanwhile, I'm seeing kids, even back 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:55.480 in the seventies when I was in high school, early seventies, 0:07:56.040 --> 0:07:59.360 who were having a horrible time because it was clear 0:07:59.440 --> 0:08:03.000 they were gay, even if people didn't recognize it like 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:05.600 they do now. And I was determined that would never 0:08:05.640 --> 0:08:10.640 be me. And that's a lot of stress, stress, self hatred, 0:08:10.720 --> 0:08:11.119 and shame. 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:12.960 Tell me more. 0:08:13.240 --> 0:08:16.320 I remember there was an article in Time magazine about it. 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:19.840 I can still see the cover. It was called the Homosexuals, 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:22.680 so this is maybe like nineteen seventy one, seventy two, 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:26.800 and on the cover was a handsome young man sort 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:29.520 of in shadow and you couldn't really see a face, 0:08:29.720 --> 0:08:33.680 but just a silhouette. And I remember reading this in 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:39.400 the living room at home and being horrified, Wow that 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:42.920 even reading this sort of found me out. 0:08:44.240 --> 0:08:47.560 So you went to the University of Cincinnati to study 0:08:47.640 --> 0:08:50.280 musical theater. Is that where you came out? 0:08:50.840 --> 0:08:53.200 You know, it was where we all first kind of 0:08:53.760 --> 0:08:56.800 began to figure out what that was. You would see 0:08:56.840 --> 0:09:00.840 the freshman class of any musical theater program in and 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:03.080 you would look across the guys and you would literally 0:09:03.120 --> 0:09:12.000 think of some of them gay by May they would, 0:09:12.080 --> 0:09:14.760 And I'm sure that I was one day that somebody 0:09:15.000 --> 0:09:20.440 looked at and went gay by May. So that's where 0:09:21.559 --> 0:09:25.280 I I really came into my own and came out 0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:28.240 to my friends, and you know, worked summer Stock and 0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:30.560 you know, all the all of that really came together. 0:09:31.040 --> 0:09:33.040 And also where I really knew I wanted to come 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:36.200 to New York City. Both I thought to be an actor, 0:09:36.280 --> 0:09:38.240 but you know what the truth was, I wanted to 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:42.679 come to the city to be gay. You and well, 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:46.640 but i'd been I visited when I was sixteen with 0:09:46.720 --> 0:09:49.320 a friend of mine and we were sort of supposed 0:09:49.320 --> 0:09:51.719 to be staying with these nuns who were friends of 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:54.120 one of our mothers. And these nuns more or less 0:09:54.120 --> 0:09:56.880 gave us keys to these little rooms and said, have 0:09:57.040 --> 0:10:01.720 had boys. And so we just ran around for six days. 0:10:02.000 --> 0:10:04.160 But you know, we also split up at times to 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:06.760 just like explore on our own. And when we did that, 0:10:06.800 --> 0:10:08.280 one time I had sex. 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:09.240 Wow. 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:13.480 I was hanging around somewhere, like in around Macy's or something, 0:10:13.520 --> 0:10:16.600 and I was just kind of cruising, cruising but looking 0:10:16.640 --> 0:10:19.680 in windows, just sort of just getting them. And I 0:10:19.800 --> 0:10:24.040 realized that this maintenance worker was sort of looking at me. 0:10:24.040 --> 0:10:28.320 I'm a sixteen year old kid, and he indicated that 0:10:28.360 --> 0:10:31.280 I should follow him, and I did. 0:10:31.800 --> 0:10:34.880 You automatically knew exactly. 0:10:34.280 --> 0:10:36.800 Exactly what he wanted. I'd been doing it in Pittsburgh. 0:10:37.120 --> 0:10:40.679 And he took me into some building and we ended 0:10:40.760 --> 0:10:44.880 up in some warehousey room. And I mean, it's nuts 0:10:45.280 --> 0:10:46.760 when I think is sort of some of the you know, 0:10:46.960 --> 0:10:48.880 fact I could have what could have happened, you could 0:10:48.920 --> 0:10:52.760 have would have shout it. But I was thrilled with 0:10:52.920 --> 0:10:54.960 the even as much as the sex. 0:10:55.920 --> 0:10:58.840 The adventure of that well, and it seems like it 0:10:58.960 --> 0:11:00.960 was also a form of connection. 0:11:01.559 --> 0:11:06.640 It was because I remember talking with him. Yeah, it was. 0:11:07.360 --> 0:11:11.640 Well, So you moved to New York after college, and 0:11:11.960 --> 0:11:15.840 from what I've understood about this time, period. It seems 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:18.600 like it was yeah, just anything goes. 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:22.240 Yeah, let's put it this way. Anything that went you 0:11:22.240 --> 0:11:27.120 could find this is after yes, exactly. This isn't the 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:31.080 time period of the seventies, you know it was, I 0:11:31.120 --> 0:11:32.720 mean it was extraordinary. 0:11:33.080 --> 0:11:35.280 How did you meet other gay people on the street. 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:38.120 On the street all the time, there was sort of 0:11:38.120 --> 0:11:39.600 the walk pause, look. 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:42.200 Let's go wow an energy exchange. 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:45.040 Oh yeah yeah. And you know, and I what the 0:11:45.080 --> 0:11:47.800 thing I did love at that time were the baths, 0:11:48.080 --> 0:11:50.760 because it was no nonsense. You got sort of to 0:11:50.800 --> 0:11:51.559 the point. 0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:53.720 And these are bath houses. 0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:56.400 Yeah, whether it was the Saint Mark's baths or the 0:11:56.400 --> 0:11:58.920 club baths or the Everard baths. 0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:01.040 It explained one of them, because I think for my 0:12:01.200 --> 0:12:03.120 generation they don't really exist. 0:12:03.200 --> 0:12:07.400 They were like clubhouses with all kinds of lockers and 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:09.720 then all kinds of little cabins, little rooms where you 0:12:09.800 --> 0:12:11.920 could rent one or the other. And then if you 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:14.560 had a room, either you have sex there with somebody 0:12:14.559 --> 0:12:18.040 who came in, or crews around until somebody invited you in. 0:12:18.080 --> 0:12:19.960 And I know that there were people who weren't and 0:12:20.040 --> 0:12:22.920 would spend like the weekend there. I remember there was 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:25.800 a particular snow day. This is maybe like in nineteen 0:12:25.840 --> 0:12:28.840 seventy eight, lived on seventy first Street. Huge snow, the 0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:32.760 city is like buried and absolute standstill. And I called 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:35.840 a friend of mine, my friend Jimmy, who lived on 0:12:35.960 --> 0:12:38.000 seventieth Street, a block away from me, and I said, 0:12:38.120 --> 0:12:39.839 you know what he said, I said, let's get that 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:41.640 to the club bass. I said, you know it is 0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:45.680 going to be jammed, okay, because there's nothing anybody can do, 0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:50.560 but they'll get there. That was open, and that was open, 0:12:50.720 --> 0:12:56.600 and I was right. I mean, so yeah, it was, 0:12:57.920 --> 0:12:59.680 you know, a free for all. 0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:01.479 And what about friendship? 0:13:01.600 --> 0:13:03.480 What about That's how I made a lot of friends 0:13:03.640 --> 0:13:05.400 where the sex would wear off and you're, you know, 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:08.040 and you would just be palsed because you realize you 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:08.640 liked each other. 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:11.920 I want to ask about you coming out to your parents, sure, 0:13:12.040 --> 0:13:17.360 because I mean two Catholic parents, that's a big deal. 0:13:17.880 --> 0:13:21.440 Yes, it was a big deal. And see when I 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:24.440 left home to go to school, I never really came back. 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:27.920 I'll bet I never spent three days in a row. 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:31.320 After I left to go to CCM as a freshman. 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:34.280 Probably the next time I spent any more time was 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:36.520 that I was after my dad died and we were 0:13:36.559 --> 0:13:39.200 moving everybody out of the house. I just had very 0:13:39.240 --> 0:13:41.640 little connection to it. I mean, I always felt a 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:45.360 little bit separate from my family, even in that way, 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:49.800 because so much of my life was separate from them. 0:13:50.280 --> 0:13:55.600 And then finally I guess I was twenty four, I think, 0:13:56.880 --> 0:14:03.000 and I began to just be embarrassed almost that I 0:14:03.160 --> 0:14:09.679 was sort of closetly pretending not to be something that 0:14:09.720 --> 0:14:13.079 I wasn't to them. So I really decided that I 0:14:13.080 --> 0:14:15.920 should tell them, and I was really nervous about it 0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:20.160 because my father and I had a not great relationship. 0:14:21.000 --> 0:14:23.680 I always felt like a disappointment to him. He'd been 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:27.800 a big jock. I was not what he bargained for, 0:14:29.160 --> 0:14:31.680 and rather than try and dig in or find out 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:34.760 what he had gotten, he really kind of just stepped away. 0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:37.880 And I told him, now, you know whatever that you no, 0:14:38.080 --> 0:14:43.440 I'm gay. And this would have been in like seventy eight, 0:14:43.520 --> 0:14:46.520 seventy nine, so this is preates. So they weren't. We 0:14:46.560 --> 0:14:49.800 didn't jump to worrying about that. But my father sort 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:51.720 of did what I expected him to do, which is 0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:54.600 kind of just shut down about it, and my mother 0:14:54.680 --> 0:14:58.000 sort of went right away to it being sort of 0:14:59.040 --> 0:15:02.640 stereotypically almost her fault. It's just something I said. No, no, no, 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:04.960 this actually has very little to do with either of you. 0:15:05.600 --> 0:15:09.120 This is really just who I am, how I felt 0:15:09.160 --> 0:15:12.080 all my life, even as a little kid. I've known 0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:16.920 this for a long time, how you did. And then 0:15:17.120 --> 0:15:18.160 we kind of just moved on. 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:23.720 When we come back, Tom hears about AIDS for the 0:15:23.720 --> 0:15:34.160 first time. Tom was officially out and living in New 0:15:34.240 --> 0:15:37.400 York and New York City in the seventies was like 0:15:37.440 --> 0:15:41.560 a playground for gay men across the country. Music, fashion, 0:15:41.600 --> 0:15:45.720 and nightlife centered around sex, and for many gay men 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:49.400 it was the first time they felt permission to express 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:53.480 their sexuality. But right as the party of the nineteen 0:15:53.560 --> 0:15:58.640 seventies climax and a new decade began, a mysterious disease 0:15:58.840 --> 0:16:03.200 killing gay men began to circulate. I wonder if you 0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:07.880 can talk about the first time that you heard about AIDS. 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:10.480 Oh, I can tell you exactly. At a boyfriend at 0:16:10.480 --> 0:16:13.320 the time, we were living together on seventy first Street, 0:16:14.080 --> 0:16:17.000 and my friend who I mentioned before about the bath house, Jimmy, 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:20.600 lived across the street. So Bob and I and Jimmy 0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:23.640 and a mutual friend of ours friend, a woman Fran 0:16:24.080 --> 0:16:26.080 used to get up early, you know, together and go 0:16:26.120 --> 0:16:30.240 to breakfast most mornings. And it was July third, and 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:34.240 we'd gone to the Greek coffee shop at seventy second 0:16:34.400 --> 0:16:37.240 West End and we'd we used to buy the papers 0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:41.560 to post the news and the Times share them, and 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:46.200 I think Jimmy maybe had that article that said rare 0:16:46.200 --> 0:16:49.960 cancer in homosexuals, I think was the headline, and he 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:55.040 passed did you read this? And I read it and 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:58.400 just kind of thought, oh, what's that mean? And I 0:16:58.440 --> 0:17:00.840 looked at Jimmy and I said to me, the only 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:03.920 gay disease. It's going to kill you, as if one 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:06.080 of your knickknacks on a high shelf falls off and 0:17:06.160 --> 0:17:08.159 hits you in the head. And that was about as 0:17:08.240 --> 0:17:11.360 much as we sort of paid attention to it at 0:17:11.359 --> 0:17:15.359 that time. But that was the beginning of it in 0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:19.800 sort of working its way into our lives. Because the 0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:26.480 story that really exemplifies sort of where it fell in 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:29.440 for me in those first year, a couple of years, 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:34.000 and then ten years hence was in nineteen eighty four, 0:17:34.760 --> 0:17:38.720 myself and seven of my pals, seven of my friends 0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:42.400 gay friends, all involved in the theater a little bit. Somehow, 0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:46.400 We're all at brunch and we all started talking about 0:17:47.000 --> 0:17:51.080 what we were hearing stories about, and rather than be 0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:57.040 concerned about how we might be at risk, we were 0:17:57.080 --> 0:17:59.960 pushing it away. How it was the older gay man 0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:03.480 with those gay men in their forties who've been partying 0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:07.159 too hard in the village. You know, it was gay 0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:11.439 men who There were all kinds of reasons why we 0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:14.240 really were sure it wasn't our circle. 0:18:14.400 --> 0:18:15.960 Of It felt far away. 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:19.840 It felt far away. That was nineteen eighty four. By 0:18:19.920 --> 0:18:23.440 nineteen ninety four of the eight of us, four were 0:18:23.480 --> 0:18:28.600 dead and two were HIV positive. And by ninety four, 0:18:29.160 --> 0:18:31.280 I mean, I was already doing the work with proday 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:33.080 Care Secuit. If I'd say it's but believe me, we 0:18:33.080 --> 0:18:33.600 were in it. 0:18:34.119 --> 0:18:38.560 Well, it's interesting because Tom, this is happening at a 0:18:38.600 --> 0:18:42.920 time when there's so many different ways that gay people 0:18:43.000 --> 0:18:45.520 are getting involved in the fight against AIDS. You have 0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:49.880 people really involved in protests, you have people really involved 0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:54.800 in policy. You kind of chose this other very critical 0:18:54.880 --> 0:18:58.800 route fundraising, and so I wonder if you could talk 0:18:58.840 --> 0:19:03.080 about like what made you choose that route or how 0:19:03.119 --> 0:19:05.720 it shows you rather well, I mean I love the theater. 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:08.760 I love the activity of the theater. I enjoyed the 0:19:09.200 --> 0:19:12.160 sense of family it created, and even beyond just I 0:19:12.160 --> 0:19:15.280 did some work as an actor, you know, something off Broadway, 0:19:15.640 --> 0:19:18.040 Way way off Broadway, and you know, regional theater and 0:19:18.040 --> 0:19:19.920 dinner theater, but I didn't have any kind of acting 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:22.600 creative amount to anything. But then I was doing a 0:19:22.640 --> 0:19:24.640 lot of freelance writing and had a lot a much 0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:27.560 better quality of break as a freelance writer than I 0:19:27.560 --> 0:19:30.360 did as an actor, like a playwright. No, as an 0:19:30.400 --> 0:19:33.040 art you're doing a lot of magazine articles. And one 0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:34.560 of the jobs I got that was a pen for 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:37.880 hire was high for an eight week gig at actress 0:19:37.920 --> 0:19:41.320 Equity to write some pamphlets for them and a ridiculous 0:19:41.320 --> 0:19:45.360 staff manual, and that, literally, who would have known, got 0:19:45.440 --> 0:19:47.600 my foot in the door. I had been working very 0:19:47.600 --> 0:19:51.200 closely with an actress, a brilliant actress named Colleen Dehurst, 0:19:51.480 --> 0:19:55.240 who was very involved in the creation of Equity. Fight say, 0:19:55.280 --> 0:19:58.960 it's in this extraordinary road that my life kind of 0:19:59.000 --> 0:19:59.840 got dropped onto. 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:04.679 Tom had been working as the assistant to the legendary 0:20:04.720 --> 0:20:08.600 Broadway actress Colleen Dewhurst. She was the president of the 0:20:08.640 --> 0:20:13.600 major labor union representing actors and stage managers called Actors Equity. 0:20:14.160 --> 0:20:17.680 They had put together a council focused on the response 0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:21.960 to AIDS called Equity Fights AIDS. Colleen asked Tom to 0:20:22.080 --> 0:20:26.600 lead that committee. Separately, producers in the business founded their 0:20:26.600 --> 0:20:31.240 own response to the crisis, called Broadway Cares. That organization 0:20:31.600 --> 0:20:35.360 was led by Roger McFarlane, who would become Tom's business 0:20:35.359 --> 0:20:39.280 partner and mentor when the groups merged in ninety two. 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:45.400 Broadway was being badly affected by AIDS. Stage actors, choreographers, 0:20:45.480 --> 0:20:50.199 and dancers were dying. Tom's work was to fundraise for 0:20:50.280 --> 0:20:53.800 people in the industry who needed financial help because of 0:20:53.800 --> 0:20:59.240 their diagnosis. Without work, many of these entertainment professionals couldn't 0:20:59.280 --> 0:21:04.000 pay for treatment, some couldn't afford meals, and others didn't 0:21:04.000 --> 0:21:06.320 even have the money to pay for their own funerals. 0:21:07.000 --> 0:21:11.520 Tom's organization filled in the gap. The work felt fulfilling 0:21:11.560 --> 0:21:14.320 for Tom. He was really good at it and it 0:21:14.440 --> 0:21:15.919 kept him very busy. 0:21:17.240 --> 0:21:19.760 I know people who were like nearly thrown out of 0:21:19.760 --> 0:21:22.000 their apartments, you know. I know people who were in 0:21:22.000 --> 0:21:27.800 the hospital and I had no place necessarily where they 0:21:27.800 --> 0:21:31.600 could land afterwards. I know people who needed meals, who 0:21:31.640 --> 0:21:35.720 couldn't work, who needed emergency financial assistance. I knew people 0:21:35.760 --> 0:21:38.159 whose families were not going to pay for their funerals. 0:21:38.520 --> 0:21:41.280 You know, there were hundreds of clients, and at that 0:21:41.400 --> 0:21:44.879 time they were dying. I got a note one time 0:21:45.800 --> 0:21:48.960 from a guy, Nick Pippen was his name, and he'd 0:21:49.000 --> 0:21:51.720 been a dancer, and this is probably maybe nineteen ninety 0:21:51.720 --> 0:21:55.000 one or something, and Nick had gotten very sick and 0:21:55.280 --> 0:21:59.200 debilitated and unable to work and then sick but got 0:21:59.240 --> 0:22:02.240 back to us apartment and he wrote me a note 0:22:02.400 --> 0:22:05.800 that just literally sent to the office, No, he left 0:22:05.800 --> 0:22:09.119 it on my desk, that just said this, you have 0:22:09.240 --> 0:22:14.960 made this atheist believe again in angels. And Nick died 0:22:15.040 --> 0:22:16.440 soon soon afterwards. 0:22:17.040 --> 0:22:19.080 Because for a lot of these guys, when they would 0:22:19.520 --> 0:22:23.720 get a disease like this, your insurance is what covers you. 0:22:23.560 --> 0:22:26.359 Yeah, or insurance that wasn't covering you, you know what 0:22:26.359 --> 0:22:29.960 I mean, because they believe me. There were insurance companies 0:22:30.000 --> 0:22:33.480 who were not interested in doing this, and a lot 0:22:33.520 --> 0:22:37.040 of folks just weren't insured. I mean, you know, they'd 0:22:37.080 --> 0:22:40.359 end up in in the hospital under it as a charity. 0:22:40.200 --> 0:22:42.040 Very bad debtor charity case. 0:22:42.080 --> 0:22:44.560 Or if you can't work anymore because you're too sick. 0:22:44.400 --> 0:22:49.040 Yeah, you lose your Yeah. So you know, cobbling together 0:22:49.160 --> 0:22:51.920 insurance was part of what the Actors Fund did. Well, 0:22:52.000 --> 0:22:53.320 that's what it still does. 0:22:53.720 --> 0:22:56.199 You know, at that time kind of leading up to 0:22:56.440 --> 0:23:00.760 nineteen ninety five, it seems to be getting worse and worse, 0:23:01.000 --> 0:23:04.240 like the statistics around death keep at that time. 0:23:04.320 --> 0:23:08.679 Yes, it was horrific, and those few years particularly, I 0:23:08.680 --> 0:23:11.280 mean the eighties were a little bit different because there 0:23:11.320 --> 0:23:13.920 was a sense and you know, I mean I have 0:23:14.000 --> 0:23:15.679 a lot of friends who were in Act Up and 0:23:15.720 --> 0:23:19.879 we funded Act Up, and there was an energy and 0:23:20.480 --> 0:23:22.560 the demos that were being done, and you know that 0:23:23.200 --> 0:23:25.840 to all of that. And then finally, I know that 0:23:26.720 --> 0:23:31.679 in After the Night ninety one, ninety two, ninety three, 0:23:32.040 --> 0:23:36.920 people were we were we were just exhausted by it. 0:23:36.960 --> 0:23:38.800 And you had raised a lot of money by that point. 0:23:38.880 --> 0:23:43.119 Oh yeah, yeah, we had for that time, but people 0:23:43.160 --> 0:23:47.439 were really really worn out. 0:23:47.880 --> 0:23:51.200 I wonder for you, do you have a memory of 0:23:52.359 --> 0:23:55.040 what the most emotional moment was for you? 0:23:55.480 --> 0:23:58.200 I mean, I remember Bob's funeral very well. 0:23:58.359 --> 0:23:59.480 That was your partner. 0:23:59.600 --> 0:24:02.080 Yeah, I mean we were together for ten years. We 0:24:02.080 --> 0:24:05.399 weren't really living together, like as partners in that last 0:24:06.240 --> 0:24:10.439 couple of years, but I was his caretaker, so it 0:24:10.560 --> 0:24:13.880 felt like that. I mean, you know I was when 0:24:13.880 --> 0:24:18.600