1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'Shea. I was a 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: CIA officer stationed around the world in high threat posts 3 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 1: in Europe, Russia, and in Asia. 4 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 2: And I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, the Middle East 5 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 2: and in war zones. 6 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:17,759 Speaker 3: We sometimes created conspiracies to deceive our adversaries. 7 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: Now we're going to use our expertise to deconstruct conspiracy 8 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: theories large and small. 9 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 2: Could they be true? Or are we being manipulated? 10 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:33,199 Speaker 1: This is mission implausible. Well, today's guest is Will Summer. 11 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:35,559 Speaker 1: Will is a senior reporter at the Pullwark Or. He 12 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:39,239 Speaker 1: writes the False Flag newsletter about right wing media and 13 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 1: the MAGA fringe. He's also worked previously for The Daily 14 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:46,479 Speaker 1: Beast and The Washington Post. He's the author of Trust 15 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:49,199 Speaker 1: the Plan, The Rise of QAnon, and The Conspiracy The 16 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:52,200 Speaker 1: Unhinged America. So Will, let's talk a little bit about 17 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 1: someone You've written about, someone who's actually quite important in 18 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: our nation security space now that I never thought would 19 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: be Dan Bongino. He's the FBI deputy director who was 20 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:07,760 Speaker 1: a right wing radical and conspiracy theorist with his own podcast. 21 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:12,960 Speaker 4: I'm telling you there could be some national security problems here. 22 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:18,760 Speaker 4: Because ladies and gentlemen, nobody knows how much material people 23 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 4: have on Jeffrey Epstein, who was videoed where those videos are. 24 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 5: I was told by. 25 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 4: Someone a long time ago, a very knowledgeable reporter, and 26 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:29,680 Speaker 4: so my information, I'm not hiding me. 27 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 5: Oh you're hiding up for some foreign government you're protecting 28 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 5: I'm not protecting anyone. 29 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 4: I'm only telling you what I was told that some 30 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:43,320 Speaker 4: governments around the world may have some material that's related 31 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 4: to the Epstein thing. 32 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 5: Bill Clinton was knee deep in this. Man. I have 33 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 5: a very very good source. 34 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 4: He was on the plane with Bill Clinton and Epstein 35 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 4: on one of Epstein's planes when Bill Clinton was on 36 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 4: the plane with some women who, according to my source, 37 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 4: looked under age, like I killed himself, and now nobody's 38 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 4: gonna know. 39 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 5: My buddy was on the plane. 40 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 4: He didn't see anything directly, but there was like apparently 41 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 4: some area in the back of the plane where everybody 42 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 4: went to go whatever, do their thing. I've told this 43 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 4: story a thousand times, and it's amazing how because it's 44 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 4: the Dan Bongino Show, where we've been right about just 45 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:28,080 Speaker 4: about everything, everyone in the media ignores it. 46 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:30,359 Speaker 5: Even though this source is still out there. 47 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 1: But he seems to be having a hard time squaring 48 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:37,399 Speaker 1: his new work overseeing the FBI workforce with his previous 49 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 1: fan base who he told he was going to destroy 50 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:40,800 Speaker 1: the FBI. 51 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 6: You know, just the age that were in Deputy director 52 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 6: FBI Director Dan Bongino doesn't seem that crazy, but then 53 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:49,359 Speaker 6: you think about it, you go, wow, that's really crazy. 54 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:52,639 Speaker 6: I mean, I you know, being in DC, I used 55 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 6: to hear him on like he would call in the 56 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 6: local talk radio. He was this ex Secret Service agent. 57 00:02:57,240 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 6: You talk about how awful it was working in the 58 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:01,800 Speaker 6: Obama administrator. And so I thought, all right, I'll never 59 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 6: hear of this guy again. I guess I was wrong. 60 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:06,119 Speaker 6: So this is a guy now obviously he's working under 61 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 6: Cash Btel. He's his podcaster. Famously, he couldn't take over 62 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:13,079 Speaker 6: the FBI until his podcast ad sponsorships run out. I mean, 63 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 6: so a real serious situation here, and now he has 64 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 6: this he just has all this pressure on him because, 65 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 6: like Cash Battel, he was saying, you know, the FBI 66 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 6: is a bunch of crooks, the Democratic deep state is 67 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 6: run amuck. All these people should be indicted. And now 68 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 6: that he's in charge, he hasn't indicted anybody. I mean, 69 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 6: some of these conspiracy theorist thought they were going to 70 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:34,400 Speaker 6: get fifty thousand indictments and now no one's been busted. 71 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 6: So the heat is kind of on for Dan Vongino. 72 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 3: Well, Dan Vongina's problem is he trusted the plan right 73 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 3: from cue and I so, but trust the planet. I'll 74 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 3: be I got to pay them their due. Some of 75 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 3: the stuff came true insofar as Trump's back, right, I mean, 76 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 3: we haven't seen the Adrina chrome or people are not 77 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 3: getting older because they're like killing babies and things like that, 78 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 3: but they haven't been arrested for that either. So for 79 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 3: me just to what was the plan and if they're 80 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 3: trusting it, where should we be with the plan now? 81 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 6: So, I mean, you know, in the QAnon case, they 82 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 6: love the phrase trust the Plan, and then sort of 83 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:17,720 Speaker 6: more broadly in Trump is you know, there's maybe like 84 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 6: a slightly more watered down version of that, but basically 85 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:24,239 Speaker 6: it's the idea that these democrats, this cabal of people 86 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:27,480 Speaker 6: in Hollywood and banking and finance, Yeah, they're running the 87 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,159 Speaker 6: world and they're drinking children's blood and all this stuff, 88 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 6: and that ultimately, you know, if only we could get 89 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 6: in office. If only Trump could control the FBI and 90 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 6: the Justice Department, then all the secrets would be unveiled. 91 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 6: And what we're seeing is we don't have the mythical 92 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 6: Epstein client list. The JFK files haven't revealed much of anything. 93 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:50,160 Speaker 6: All this stuff, and in Dan Bongino's case, they thought 94 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 6: he was gonna You know, this is the guy who's 95 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:54,160 Speaker 6: saying the FBI's out of control. We got to root 96 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:57,600 Speaker 6: and vine perform it. And now he's just tweeting all 97 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 6: the time. I'm working really hard. You can't quite see 98 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:02,719 Speaker 6: what I'm working on. But just again, as you said, 99 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:04,839 Speaker 6: trust the plan is basically what he's asking people to 100 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 6: keep doing forever. 101 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 1: For example, one of the guys that they had made 102 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 1: into a boogeyman that they're going to go after is 103 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 1: this FBI agent named Stephen Jensen, who was appointed to 104 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 1: lead the Washington Field office recently under Bongino and Patel, 105 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 1: and he oversaw the investigations of January sixth. So to 106 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:23,839 Speaker 1: Bungino's Maga faithful, he's a demon who went after the 107 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:26,279 Speaker 1: Proud Boys and all these other kind of things. He's 108 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:29,159 Speaker 1: trying to tweet it away, but do you see this 109 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:30,839 Speaker 1: causing a real problem for him? 110 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 6: I do. I mean, as you said, this Stephen Jensen 111 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 6: guy is agent who in the broader world I had 112 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 6: never heard of him. But if you're a January sixth 113 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 6: person or like, really follow that, cause this was a 114 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:45,160 Speaker 6: key FBI guy in terms of the January sixth response, 115 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 6: which I think for normal people would say, oh, good 116 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:49,839 Speaker 6: for you, But in this case they see him as 117 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 6: sort of like a devil figure. And the idea that 118 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:54,920 Speaker 6: he's been promoted now to run the Washington Field office 119 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 6: is crazy. There's this whole universe of like ex FBI 120 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 6: whistleblowers such as it is, people who were talking how 121 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 6: much they hate Naga inside the FBI, and that now 122 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 6: these people have podcasts and they do media appearances, and 123 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:10,159 Speaker 6: they say Longino and Cash Mattel are throwing us under 124 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 6: the bus. They're not really gonna in this case expose 125 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 6: the truth about J six and how we were all innocent. 126 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: So Margo's going to destroy Maga. Naga is not Maga enough. 127 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 3: You can never get like too far. If Dan Dongino 128 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:25,840 Speaker 3: in his I'll use the word ilk. 129 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 2: I love that word. 130 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:28,720 Speaker 3: It's like, I'm not sure what an ilk is but 131 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 3: Damigino in his ILK who were saying that they had 132 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:37,279 Speaker 3: the inside scoop. If they become establishment, are they leaving 133 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 3: the space open from QAnon guys coming and say, oh, 134 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:44,480 Speaker 3: they've been they've been turned, or they've been you know, 135 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 3: sort of recruited by the deep state. 136 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 7: I gave up everything for this. I mean, you know, 137 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 7: my wife is struggling everything. 138 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 5: And I'm not a victim. 139 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 7: I'm not Jim Coleman. 140 00:06:56,839 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 5: It's fine. 141 00:06:57,360 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 7: I did this, and I'm proud I did it. But 142 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:02,280 Speaker 7: I think we're there for tea and crumpets. Well, I mean, 143 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 7: Cash is there all day. We share our offices are linked. 144 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 7: He turns on the faucet. 145 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 2: I hear it. 146 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 7: He's there at he gets into like six o'clock in 147 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 7: the morning. He doesn't leave till seven at night. You know, 148 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 7: I'm in there at seven thirty in the morning. You know. 149 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 6: He uses the gym. 150 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 7: I work out in my apartment, but I stare at 151 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 7: these four walls all day in DC. You know, by 152 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 7: myself divorce from my wife, not divorce, but I mean 153 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 7: separated divorce. And it's hard. I mean, you know, we 154 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 7: love each other and it's hard to be a part. 155 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 7: People ask me all the time, you know, do you 156 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 7: like it? I say no, I don't, but I didn't 157 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 7: the President asked me to do this to like it. 158 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 7: You know, you nobody likes going into an organization like 159 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 7: that and having to change things and make big, bold changes. 160 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 7: But you know, I was at one of our facilities 161 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 7: yesterday down in Winchester, and a woman who worked there, 162 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 7: very nice, said, you know, I used to watch your show. 163 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 2: I miss you. 164 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 7: I said, you know, I miss me too. You know, 165 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 7: part of you, part of you dies a little bit 166 00:07:57,120 --> 00:07:59,239 Speaker 7: when you see all this stuff from behind the scenes. 167 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 3: And does that leave room on the far right for 168 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 3: like a new version of Q and one point two 169 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 3: or now that they're in, you know, they can control 170 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 3: their own crazies and it's not going to happen. 171 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 2: There's no nothing gets to the right of them. So 172 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 2: what's your sense on that. 173 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 3: Is there going to be a new sense of conspiracy 174 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 3: theories with these guys now at the center of it? 175 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 2: Or no, once they're in, it's over. 176 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 6: Yeah. I mean, I do think people like Dan Bongino 177 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 6: and Cash Reteller are at risk of being outflanked on 178 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 6: the right with people saying you've gone Washington, you're going 179 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 6: to these Georgetown cocktail parties already. In the case of 180 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 6: Pam Bondi, for example, she tried to win over these 181 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 6: right wing influencers with her Epstein Binder. Then it turned 182 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:43,199 Speaker 6: out to all the old information people started saying, maybe 183 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 6: Bondi is part of the cover up. You look at 184 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 6: someone like RFK, maybe like the ultimate hero to anti vaxers, 185 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 6: and he even grudgingly has to say, well, I guess 186 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 6: two kids are dead, Maybe you should vaccinate your kids 187 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 6: for measles, and suddenly they're flipping out at him. So 188 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 6: there's really no satisfying these people on the right because 189 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 6: I think a lot of it is decades of right 190 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 6: wing media. They've been told like you can kind of 191 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,200 Speaker 6: make your own reality. We saw in the Fox News 192 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 6: lawsuit the emails saying, oh my gosh, if we admit 193 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 6: the election wasn't stolen, we're going to lose all our audience. 194 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 6: So I think Bongino as like a hybrid right wing 195 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 6: media guy and politician. He has to. He's very conscious 196 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:21,320 Speaker 6: of this, and I think that's why he keeps tweeting 197 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:21,839 Speaker 6: about it. 198 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: It's interesting to me to see that Telca Gavard and 199 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:27,680 Speaker 1: Radcliffe and Bongino, and they continue to tweet and have 200 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 1: this sort of public face, which is really unusual. We've 201 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 1: never seen previous CIA or d and I directors or 202 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,680 Speaker 1: FBI people constantly out there trying to have a public 203 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 1: face as well as do the work. So it's really interesting. 204 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 1: And you follow right wing media, and so I think 205 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 1: a lot of us are just learning about how big 206 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:47,719 Speaker 1: it is and how much of it's based on podcasts 207 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 1: and all these alternative media. And I see now that 208 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: some Democrats are going on these kind of like gro 209 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 1: podcasts and stuff. What is your sense of that and 210 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 1: where that's going the right wing media and how to 211 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 1: best engage with it. 212 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 6: Yeah, I think it's a real challenge for Democrats. The 213 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 6: idea that you know, I thought such a useful dample 214 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 6: during the election was that these podcasts like Joe Rogan 215 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:10,680 Speaker 6: or Theo Vaughn were reaching people who did not really 216 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 6: actively seek out you know, let me load up the 217 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 6: New York Times or sit down and watch CNN, but 218 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 6: who brushed up against media, brushed up against the news 219 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 6: or politics. And so they're listening to Joe Rogan because 220 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 6: they like comedy or UFC or whatever and then he'll 221 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 6: casually say, you know, well, I think Democrats did this 222 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 6: conspiracy theory or something, and they go, okay, I guess 223 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 6: so and so. In that way, I think Democrats have 224 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 6: really struggled. And you know, even the sort of progressive 225 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 6: YouTubers or people on Twitch or whatever, their content is 226 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 6: often also about how much they hate the Democratic Party. 227 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 6: And so I talked to this guy who's kind of 228 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 6: like a hip hop YouTuber named Adam twenty two, who's 229 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 6: very successful, very like normy Democrat, but this is also 230 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 6: a guy who films adult films with his wife and 231 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:52,959 Speaker 6: posts them and all this other kind of unsavory stuff. 232 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:54,840 Speaker 6: I mean, I think several of his co hosts just 233 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 6: caught Rico charges and this is the He's desperate to 234 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 6: become like the liberal Joe Rogan. But at the same time, 235 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 6: for Democrats, that's going to mean making some compromises. Maybe 236 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 6: it's a good idea, maybe it's a bad one, but 237 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 6: that's kind of a I think when people say we 238 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 6: need the liberal Joe Rogan, that's often what that's going 239 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 6: to look like. 240 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:15,599 Speaker 1: We're going to continue in just a moment, we'll be 241 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: right back. 242 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:34,840 Speaker 3: So I'm ashamed to say, I watched an entire episode 243 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 3: of Tucker Carlson recently. 244 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 2: And the reason I did that is there was a 245 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 2: former colleague of John and I a CIA officer, who 246 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 2: was on it, and I wanted to see sort of 247 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 2: like what was going to say it. One of the 248 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 2: things I thought was really interesting coming out of this 249 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 2: is squaring the circle as to how it is that 250 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 2: former right wing guys who claimed they knew about QAnon 251 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 2: who are now establishment figures who aren't coming down in 252 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 2: the One of the things be forward by Tucker Carlson 253 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 2: is that he claims he knows senior politicians in the 254 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:09,680 Speaker 2: US and Congress and in the Senate who supported Trump 255 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 2: and supported some of these right wing conspiracy theories, and 256 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 2: when they go into a skiff, which is one of 257 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 2: the rooms that protected from eavesdropping, they go into the 258 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 2: skiff with some CIA officers alone, and when they come out, 259 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 2: they're different, and. 260 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 3: So he's he's basically Tucker Carlson was saying that basically 261 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 3: we're brainwashing people inside of these skiffs, and it's an 262 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 3: interesting way of squaring the circle so that the conspiracy 263 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:40,960 Speaker 3: he's now spun is that these aren't bad guys, but 264 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 3: these are guys who were actually been captured by the 265 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 3: d state. 266 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 2: We need to free them. 267 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 3: It was interesting to wat Check, the CIA officer, who 268 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 3: knows what goesana this is in methods. 269 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 1: We should change the name from skiff to truth rooms. 270 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: They went into a room and they were different. 271 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 3: I guess I'm just utterly gobsmicked by the inventiveness of 272 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 3: the right, and I was wondering if you could go 273 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 3: into like, you know, do you think there are any 274 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 3: limits on. 275 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 2: Where they can't go? 276 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 3: I would have thought it was like Nazis or JFK 277 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 3: Junior coming back, but it's I can't seem to see it. 278 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:16,719 Speaker 2: Across long time. 279 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 3: I know, I know, I know, but you're you're an 280 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 3: expert with q andon, So what's your sense of that 281 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 3: are there any limits? Because I worry about authoritarianism and 282 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 3: losing our democracy, so. 283 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 6: Of course, yeah, no, I mean, I to be frank, 284 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 6: I don't think there are like really any obvious limits 285 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 6: that people are bumping up against. I think the there 286 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 6: is kind of this challenge now that Trump people are 287 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:37,680 Speaker 6: in office that we've underlined with Bongino and many others, 288 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 6: where there is like a baseline level of reality that 289 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 6: these appointees realize they need to operate in in an 290 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:46,959 Speaker 6: rfk's case, because Okay, we can't just keep having more 291 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 6: kids die, so I'm going to have to reel it 292 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:51,199 Speaker 6: back in a little. And then that's causing people to 293 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 6: flip out. But at the same time, you know, you 294 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:56,080 Speaker 6: mentioned the Hitler kind of revisionism, and this kind of 295 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 6: goes into the whole world of like bro podcasts too. 296 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 6: The idea that Tucker is from to this guy, this 297 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 6: guy who gets martyr made, guy who gets out there 298 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 6: and says, I'm working on a podcast about World War 299 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 6: Two and my big discovery is that Churchill is the 300 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 6: main villain of World War Two. And you listen to 301 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 6: it and it's like, well, you know, I wouldn't even 302 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:14,440 Speaker 6: put him at you know, top five, top ten, you know, 303 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:17,199 Speaker 6: I mean, even in the most kind of crazy idea. 304 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 6: But there is kind of this whole sale kind of 305 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 6: on the right, this attempt to sort of like reimagine 306 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 6: history and and and you know, and and in that 307 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 6: way kind of our shared reality. So I think up 308 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 6: until I think the when we see this with the 309 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 6: tariffs too, it's such a wide ranging thing where this, oh, 310 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 6: we're going to restructure the whole economy. I mean, so 311 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 6: there is kind of a sense to I think, make America, 312 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 6: and a lot of that involves, you know, remaking what 313 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 6: we understand to be the world and our country. 314 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 1: And frankly, that's not unusual what Jerry and I lived 315 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 1: in places overseas, former communist countries, or we're author darian governs. 316 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 1: Crafting a false history or crafting a false narrative for 317 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 1: people to believe is something you do to keep power 318 00:14:57,200 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 1: and to control your people. So that's not that unusual, 319 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 1: at least with a more simple question, how did you 320 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 1: come up with a name for your newsletter the false Flag? 321 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 6: The false flag? Yeah, well, you know, it's funny. I mean, 322 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 6: I was brainstorming about what I wanted the newsletter be about. 323 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 6: I mean, it's about writing media, the fringe, conspiracy theories 324 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 6: and often you know these days, how that stuff plays 325 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 6: out in the world we live in and the government, 326 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 6: and so in that way, I mean, false flag obviously 327 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 6: is a big kind of byword on the right or 328 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 6: by phrase, because they think everything that happens in the 329 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 6: world is a false flag event, or that there's a 330 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 6: shadowy force behind it. Things are not as they seem 331 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 6: and so given that that's the world we're living in 332 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 6: now and that kind of thinking is informing what happens, 333 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 6: I figure I go with it, you know, And it's 334 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 6: kind of it's evocative, kind of hopefully catchy, a little punchy. 335 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 2: So where we go? One we go? 336 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 7: All? 337 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 3: I think that was a really you know, it's a 338 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 3: little long for a bumper sticker, but it's still pretty cool. 339 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 3: But are they going? 340 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 6: All? 341 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 2: Do you see any fracturing with looking back? 342 00:15:56,160 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 3: Historically way you have extreme political movements, they often begin 343 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 3: to fracture into different people try to take control of it. 344 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 3: So are you seeing fracturing on the right now that 345 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 3: they're facing reality? And or as long as we have 346 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 3: the figure of Trump as the central figure, that the 347 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 3: messiah like figure, they can all sort of rarely around 348 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 3: that that's not happening or not happening yet. 349 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 2: So what's your sense of that? 350 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 6: You know? And this is maybe a bit of good 351 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 6: news that I see so much fracturing and factionalization, all 352 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 6: this stuff that I mean, I could fill a newsletter 353 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 6: twice a week with examples of backfighting or backfighting and 354 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 6: all this scheming. Yeah, I mean, I do think it's 355 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 6: easy to be a united movement when you're out of power, 356 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 6: whether it's business Wall Street types who want lower taxes 357 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 6: versus like religious zealots or anti vaccine people, you can 358 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 6: all kind of unite together. But then when you're in office, 359 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 6: you actually have these policies, let's say in the case 360 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 6: of tariffs, that are going to infuriate business people, but 361 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 6: you know, perhaps these work where blue collar people want it. 362 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,440 Speaker 6: I mean, all this stuff is you know, we're seeing 363 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 6: people splitting. It's just a couple off the top of 364 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 6: my head. I mean, now that even Republican appointed judges 365 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 6: are starting to restrain Trump on immigration, I'm seeing a 366 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 6: lot of attacks on the Federalist society, who, of course 367 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 6: were very involved in stocking the judiciary with Republicans. So 368 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 6: a lot of people on the writer are saying, you know, 369 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 6: I think the federal society, you know, there are a 370 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,879 Speaker 6: bunch of deep staters and stuff, which for people, you know, 371 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 6: perhaps liberals, I mean great, you know, if you want 372 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:24,200 Speaker 6: to go after the Federalist society who handed them the judiciary, 373 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:27,160 Speaker 6: that sounds like a great idea. Or attacks on Amy 374 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 6: Cody Barrett, all this kind of stuff. So I do 375 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 6: think there is like a huge amount of fracturing. I 376 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 6: think we're seeing a lot of people who maybe got 377 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 6: into trump Ism because they were sick of wokeism or 378 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:40,160 Speaker 6: pronouns in bio, these things that I think in retrospect 379 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:43,680 Speaker 6: they're coming to realize we're minor annoyances that suddenly they're 380 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 6: realizing like, wait, who have I thrown in with? Who 381 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:48,119 Speaker 6: are these nuts who are now running the country. 382 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, the term that Jerry used there was a QAnon 383 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,120 Speaker 1: term just for people who don't realize it. And one 384 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:55,879 Speaker 1: person who famously said it publicly was Michael Flynn, a 385 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:59,199 Speaker 1: former army general, three star general, who Jerry and I 386 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:00,080 Speaker 1: know very well. 387 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 2: He was selling merch with that. 388 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: There was so much So where is he now and 389 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 1: why hasn't he been brought in? And how is he 390 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 1: responding to the new people in the Trumpet mission? Is 391 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: he even supportive of is he staying away from it? 392 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:12,400 Speaker 1: Is he just trying to make money? 393 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:13,199 Speaker 2: What's what's he up to? 394 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 6: Well, you guys are gonna love this one. So Michael 395 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 6: Flynn is he was a hero in the q and 396 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:20,640 Speaker 6: On community. But all these things, you know, they eat 397 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 6: their own and so really, just in the past week, 398 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 6: or two. Michael Flynn has really been targeted by QAnon 399 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:29,679 Speaker 6: and conspiracy theorists who say he is a deep stater. 400 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,159 Speaker 6: They're looking at his brother, who I believe was in 401 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 6: the military still was yes and was like somehow involved 402 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 6: in the military response to January sixth, and they're saying, 403 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 6: maybe he allowed Jerry six to happen to make Trump 404 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 6: people look bad. So Michael Flynn has been, you know, 405 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 6: spending the past couple of weeks basically taking shots from 406 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 6: these right wingers who were saying, you're in the deep 407 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 6: state too, and and so they're really you know, once 408 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 6: I went to this q no On convention and he 409 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:57,639 Speaker 6: was kind of holding up quilt. You got to tell 410 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:00,479 Speaker 6: us that, oh my god, I got kicked out. And 411 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 6: so they folding up Qan on quilts and selling him 412 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:06,400 Speaker 6: for thousands of dollars. And so he was their hero, 413 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 6: and now they're really turning on him. 414 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:27,359 Speaker 2: Let's pause for a second. We'll be right back. So 415 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:29,439 Speaker 2: q and on Ink is there still money to be 416 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:29,959 Speaker 2: made in this? 417 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:32,879 Speaker 6: I think there is. You know, it's in some ways 418 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:35,440 Speaker 6: we don't see the cues anymore. We don't hear people 419 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 6: saying where we go on we go all. In part 420 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:41,240 Speaker 6: that's because Q after the election said after twenty twenty 421 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:44,920 Speaker 6: said the brand has become tarnished. People have figured out 422 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:48,200 Speaker 6: that we're nuts. So stop saying Q and on specific stuff. 423 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:50,880 Speaker 6: Let's keep talking about Democrats eating kids, keep talking about 424 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:55,680 Speaker 6: the stolen election. Just don't say QAnon because that makes 425 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,880 Speaker 6: people of normally people have figured out that that's that's 426 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 6: for lunatics. And so but I think, you know, this 427 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 6: kind of thinking like we're talking about, it became a 428 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 6: lot broader and now it's you know, an article of 429 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 6: faith in the GOP that you need to be skeptical 430 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 6: of vaccines, or that the twenty twenty election was stolen, 431 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 6: or that Ukraine is part of this kind of like 432 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 6: international cabal. And so I think in that way, I 433 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:18,200 Speaker 6: think there's like a huge amount of money to be 434 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:22,359 Speaker 6: made and you can still sell pills and sell nutritional 435 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 6: supplements or there's a whole lot of money still out 436 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 6: there for them. 437 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:27,680 Speaker 1: As you look at that group out there, one of 438 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 1: the things it's clear and politicians have done this forever, 439 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 1: but it seems to be very prevalent amongst this right 440 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 1: wing MAGA group is they use fear to push things 441 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 1: how does it work. On one hand, that they were 442 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:42,119 Speaker 1: willing to push this kind of fear. For example, there 443 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:44,639 Speaker 1: was outside of Dallas they were building this mosque and 444 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 1: they're using it in Texas politically, Oh my gosh, Sharia City. 445 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 1: Oh my god, Muslims are coming. They're going to kill 446 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 1: us against this bro tough guy culture. So part of 447 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 1: the MAGA thing in charge is we don't care. We're tough, 448 00:20:57,160 --> 00:20:59,399 Speaker 1: you know, we listen to these pro podcasts and stuff. 449 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 1: On the other hand, oh no, a mosque is being built. 450 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: Heaven's to Betsy, Like, how does that work together? 451 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean that's a great point. I mean, you know, similarly, 452 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 6: you have these situations where it's like I go into 453 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 6: the city, I got to keep my head on a swivel, 454 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 6: you know, and we all managed to survive, you know, 455 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 6: going into the city the otherwise. But yeah, I mean, 456 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 6: in this case, you're talking about this thing called Epic City, 457 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,920 Speaker 6: which is shaping up to be a very typical Dallas 458 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:26,879 Speaker 6: ex serb. Except it's being organized by Muslims who are 459 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:30,239 Speaker 6: affiliated with this mosque. And it looks like, you know, 460 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:32,479 Speaker 6: it hasn't even broken ground, So I can't even say 461 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:34,360 Speaker 6: it looks like this, but it seems to be I'm 462 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 6: from Texas. It looks like one of a million sort 463 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 6: of suburban housing developments. But Republicans have absolutely lost their 464 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 6: minds over it, including John Corn and the Senator, Ken Paxton, 465 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,680 Speaker 6: the Attorney General, and Greg Abbott the governor, are basically 466 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 6: competing with each other to violate these people's First Amendment rights. 467 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 6: And say, I think there's something like ten investigations now 468 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 6: into this operation. I asked Greg Abbat's people, I said, 469 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 6: can you just what is the crime here that's being alleged? 470 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 6: What is the basis of the investigation? And it's, oh, well, 471 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 6: maybe they raised money to build buildings, but they hadn't 472 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,160 Speaker 6: built the building yet, so that might be securities fraud. 473 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 6: I mean, this kind of like Penny Anti stuff. But 474 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 6: it's I think it's very clear that they just do 475 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:19,879 Speaker 6: not want a Muslim community happening in Texas. And this 476 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,440 Speaker 6: has become like a realistic on Fox News talk radio. 477 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 6: It's become a cause to let on the right. 478 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 3: And so I get that people are suspicious and don't 479 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:31,159 Speaker 3: like foreigners getting involved, their foreign cultures getting involved in 480 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 3: our politics, But explain to me, at least from their 481 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 3: point of view, why it is that it's okay if Russians. 482 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:40,440 Speaker 8: Do this, right? 483 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 3: I mean, so we have as former CIA officers, we 484 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:48,479 Speaker 3: dealt a lot with conspiracy theories and conspiracies, and this 485 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 3: is a real conspiracy, right. I mean, the Russian government 486 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 3: was subsidizing through a cutout right wing podcasters, you know, 487 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 3: and you know Tim Pool, Benny Johnson, and that's okay. 488 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,919 Speaker 3: But I guess George Soros, who's an American citizen, if 489 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 3: he supports something that's not okay, on is one is. 490 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 2: Nefarious and one is the other one isn't. 491 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 3: So at least could you explain to me from their 492 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 3: perspective why it's okay? 493 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:20,160 Speaker 2: Or do you just explain it away by Russia? Russia 494 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 2: Russia hoax? But so what is the rationale or how 495 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 2: did they view that? 496 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 6: Yeah, I'm so glad you guys brought that up. You know, 497 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 6: obviously john has the experience with Russia, And when you 498 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 6: brought that up, I said, oh, man, I would love 499 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 6: to talk about tenet media. This case square Timpoole and 500 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:37,399 Speaker 6: Benny Johnson and Dave Rue money. They're taking huge amounts 501 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 6: of money. In Tim Poole's case, I believe it was 502 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,679 Speaker 6: one hundred thousand dollars per video. Just imagine if we 503 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 6: finished this video and then you got to check clear 504 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 6: for one hundred thousand dollars. 505 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:52,639 Speaker 2: It's crazy. You do exactly Maybe you know well, but you. 506 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:54,360 Speaker 6: Know, it's so funny. There is this aspect. I think 507 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 6: even some liberals they say, oh my gosh, we went 508 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 6: so overboard with the Russia stuff. Sometimes Russia really did 509 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,920 Speaker 6: do stuff, you know, and continues to And as someone 510 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 6: who tries to live in reality as much as I can, 511 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:07,359 Speaker 6: you also have to acknowledge that. Like, I think it 512 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:09,400 Speaker 6: became a kind of a knee jerk thing among Democrats 513 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 6: to say, oh, you know that Russian stuff was made 514 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:12,920 Speaker 6: up too, but it wasn't a lot of it. I 515 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 6: don't know, I'm not an expert, but like, but you 516 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:16,360 Speaker 6: look at it, and so I mean, in the case 517 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 6: of this Tempoole situation, this was personally for me very 518 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,879 Speaker 6: satisfying because I had been watching this YouTube channel Tenet Media, 519 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 6: and I was saying, I don't quite understand why this exists. 520 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 6: It's these popular right wing YouTubers and they kind of 521 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,879 Speaker 6: made a collective on YouTube, but it's very not successful 522 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 6: and are getting hundreds of views per video, and then 523 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,400 Speaker 6: the FBI came out and said, hey, we have this indictment. 524 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:39,879 Speaker 6: This is all upfront for our tea. And so for 525 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,880 Speaker 6: me it explained a lot of things. And it's also 526 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 6: I mean, these people are, you know, in the case 527 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 6: of Timpoole, Benny Johnson, these people are successful right wing 528 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:51,160 Speaker 6: figures without Russia. But the idea that perhaps they were doubling, 529 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 6: maybe tripling their incomes because of these payments, it was 530 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 6: very interesting to me. In Tim Poole's case, he has 531 00:24:56,600 --> 00:25:00,080 Speaker 6: some compounds out in western Maryland and West Virginia, and 532 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 6: he had already a skater and so he had started 533 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,119 Speaker 6: taking he buying local skate parks and this kind of 534 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,239 Speaker 6: stuff really kind of like impresario type things. And then 535 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 6: suddenly the Russian money gets turned off, maybe related, maybe not, 536 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:13,679 Speaker 6: and somebody's saying, oh, I have to pull back on 537 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 6: all my businesses. 538 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 2: You know. 539 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,359 Speaker 6: And so for me it's just interesting seeing the dynamics 540 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 6: of this. And you are often left wondering, really when 541 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,199 Speaker 6: someone makes a move that seems odd to be like 542 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,120 Speaker 6: very pro Russia or on kind of a specific Russian 543 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:29,360 Speaker 6: issue that has no kind of valence in the United States. 544 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 6: You wonder, like what's going on here. 545 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:37,239 Speaker 3: Like like with Ed Martin, right, district attorney for at 546 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:42,199 Speaker 3: least potentially for Washington, DC, just slipped his mind. You 547 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,399 Speaker 3: mentioned RTE slipped his mind that he had been on 548 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:49,399 Speaker 3: RT Russian television over one hundred and fifty times and 549 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,960 Speaker 3: forgot to mention it to the Senate. And it's still 550 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 3: not clear how much he got paid. 551 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:57,160 Speaker 6: Right, Yeah, I mean that's a great example. And now 552 00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:59,159 Speaker 6: he's one of the top law enforcement figures in the 553 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:01,679 Speaker 6: country and then as a DC resident, and it's truly 554 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:05,200 Speaker 6: bizarre seeing him tweet. You know, it's, Oh, this guy's 555 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:09,119 Speaker 6: selling pro Palestine merchant Georgetown. Oh I'm looking into this. 556 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 6: I mean, that's not a crime. You know, all these examples, 557 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 6: I mean, this is a we have a legitimate crime 558 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,479 Speaker 6: problem in DC, and that Trump people were more than 559 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 6: happy to talk about up until the election. And now 560 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:21,639 Speaker 6: it's it's all these culture work things. 561 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,879 Speaker 1: What is the right way to look at sort of 562 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 1: the maga's view of Jews. They're attacking universities claiming they're 563 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: anti Semitic, but they also seem to promote a lot 564 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:33,399 Speaker 1: of nasty Nazi stuff. 565 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 6: Yeah, they do yeah, and you know, this is an 566 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 6: interesting case. I think there's a lot unfortunately, particularly among 567 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,640 Speaker 6: like younger skewing right wing media right now, I think 568 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:46,040 Speaker 6: the energy is really much more towards anti Semitism than 569 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:50,119 Speaker 6: towards you know, supporting Jews or not or Israel. You know. 570 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 6: I think we can look at Ben Shapiro, for example, 571 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,880 Speaker 6: in the Daily Wire, which are obviously very pro Israel 572 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 6: and yet have really been going through a lot of 573 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,840 Speaker 6: business struggles. In the case, he had this person named 574 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,359 Speaker 6: Candice Owens, who is like a very successful host, and 575 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 6: then she started making all these anti Semitic remarks. She 576 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:09,159 Speaker 6: came up with wackaduke because she you know, Macrone in 577 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,440 Speaker 6: France his wife is secretly trans and all this stuff, 578 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:16,160 Speaker 6: and she's been hugely popular with that, and ultimately they 579 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 6: fired her roughly a year ago, and she's continued to 580 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 6: be very popular while the Daily Wire has all these 581 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,960 Speaker 6: business issues. Or you know, I'll tune into like Stephen Crowder, 582 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,120 Speaker 6: a guy who is very much kind of like, you know, 583 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 6: not making waves of his own. He'll kind of go 584 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 6: whichever direction the right wing is going. I just tuned 585 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 6: in one random day and he was doing this like 586 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 6: insane anti semitic skit where a Jewish guy won't hire 587 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:39,679 Speaker 6: a guy once he finds out he's Jewish. I mean 588 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:41,680 Speaker 6: he was was like what and this is like Daily 589 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 6: Stormer type stuff. But now these days on the right, 590 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 6: and I think particularly in kind of like the Manisphere world, 591 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:48,159 Speaker 6: it's becoming very common. 592 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 8: We're gonna stop here today and will we turn next 593 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 8: week with more of our conversation with will Summer here 594 00:27:55,240 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 8: on Mission Implausible. Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, 595 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 8: Jerry O'shay, John Seipher, and Jonathan Sterr. The associate producer 596 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:14,000 Speaker 8: is Rachel Harner. Mission Implausible is a production of honorable 597 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 8: mention and abominable pictures for iHeart Podcasts.