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Speaker 2: Is there people sitting out there going, oh, I've listened
Speaker 2: to that person religiously I follow on Instagram and how
Speaker 2: dare you?
Speaker 3: It might be working for you right, And that's wonderful, But.
Speaker 2: I also think that a lot of folks who are
Speaker 2: suffering as a result of believing it works for one
Speaker 2: hundred percent of people for the rest of their lives.
Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Psychology Podcast. Today we welcome
Speaker 1: my buddy Dan Lerner to the podcast. Dan is an
Speaker 1: in demand speaker, author, strengths based performance coach, and instructor
Speaker 1: of one of the most popular undergraduate courses at New
Speaker 1: York University. Dan's expertise and positive psychology helps people lead thriving,
Speaker 1: successful lives. He works with students, artists, athletes, and numerous
Speaker 1: Fortune five hundred companies and executives around the world, whether
Speaker 1: it is speaking, coaching, teaching, or writing. Dan and Jack's
Speaker 1: intellect with motivation, science with compassion and makes change both
Speaker 1: exciting and fun. In this episode, Dan and I have
Speaker 1: a podcast improv Jam. We talked about so many topics
Speaker 1: that were of mutual interest. As positive psychologists, we both
Speaker 1: have a deep interest and appreciation for human potential and
Speaker 1: how we can cultivate it through education. We also discussed
Speaker 1: the important components for long lasting friendship and how to
Speaker 1: find a healthy community in this day and age of
Speaker 1: echo chambers. We also hope you enjoyed the conversation about personality, leadership,
Speaker 1: the self help industry, and mental health as much as
Speaker 1: we did. So, without further ado, I'll bring you the
Speaker 1: great Dan Leerner.
Speaker 4: My Man, Scott Barry Kaufman.
Speaker 1: How are you, brother, Daniel Lerner. It's great to have
Speaker 1: you on the Psychology Podcast.
Speaker 4: Man, it is an honor and a pleasure.
Speaker 1: Let me tell you this is going to be an
Speaker 1: improv jam today, Dude.
Speaker 4: I'm ready.
Speaker 2: Let's let's improve it up. Who knows what could happen?
Speaker 2: Who knows going to be?
Speaker 4: It's going to be. It's crazy.
Speaker 1: Now, you're like really high objectively on both aspects of extraversion.
Speaker 4: Whatever gave you that idea.
Speaker 1: Because both one aspect is assertiveness and the other aspect
Speaker 1: is enthusiasm, and you embody both of those things. But
Speaker 1: how do you self identify? Like when you think to yourself,
Speaker 1: You're like, yeah, I'm an extrovert. You know.
Speaker 4: Look, I've done lots of work in an extraversion introversion.
Speaker 4: I've taught it, I've thought a lot about it.
Speaker 2: I've observed as many people as I could, and it's
Speaker 2: been an amazing tool or maybe guide to helping me
Speaker 2: understand other folks and how to interact with them and
Speaker 2: try to try to really understand their preferences when.
Speaker 4: It comes to communication styles.
Speaker 2: And for me, I know that I am an extrovert,
Speaker 2: There's no question about it, okay, But I am also
Speaker 2: very aware that I need some serious downtime. It's funny
Speaker 2: because you know, you and I are you and our
Speaker 2: friends and you know this. There have been times where
Speaker 2: I just am not ready to respond. They need a
Speaker 2: little time. I'm a little drained. I may have been
Speaker 2: I may have been ex troverting hard that day or
Speaker 2: that week.
Speaker 1: So they're human.
Speaker 4: I'm human, that's right.
Speaker 2: And as you know, everyone has, it's a preference extraversion introversion,
Speaker 2: and there are times when we need a little bit
Speaker 2: of the other.
Speaker 4: You know. That's and that's that some of us need
Speaker 4: one percent.
Speaker 2: I had a colleague I used to work with amazing guy,
Speaker 2: this sort of celebrity chef guy.
Speaker 4: And he was the most extroverted person I know. Right.
Speaker 2: He would stand on a table to make a point, right,
Speaker 2: and it was loud, you know, and it was great.
Speaker 4: And that was him.
Speaker 2: And even with him, I am sure there were times
Speaker 2: where he's like, I need to breathe, and that might
Speaker 2: have been for two minutes instead of twenty or two
Speaker 2: hours or a day. But everyone has it. For me,
Speaker 2: It's who I've been for a long time. I'm comfortable
Speaker 2: with it, and a lot of the work that I
Speaker 2: do plays to it, right. And I would also give
Speaker 2: a lot of the friends that I have like you.
Speaker 2: When you and I get together, we are very extroverted together.
Speaker 2: You need your time, I need my time, right, But
Speaker 2: that's where that's my comfort zone. Go great, and I
Speaker 2: think better when I speak out loud. I I get
Speaker 2: more energy when I'm able to share verbally as opposed
Speaker 2: to writing. Whi's one of the things I always found
Speaker 2: fascinating about you. I kind of want to turn this
Speaker 2: around to you because you're someone who has this podcast
Speaker 2: and you have been You're amazing in conversation with folks
Speaker 2: with me, with the guests, you have with the people
Speaker 2: I've seen you with in social interactions, But you also
Speaker 2: have that you know, thumper of a book, transcend in
Speaker 2: all these other books where you have sat quietly and
Speaker 2: thought and processed well. So you know, I'd like to
Speaker 2: know your perspective on your own extraversion and introversion, your
Speaker 2: tendency's preferences, so on and so forth.
Speaker 1: Oh, I have a lot of enthusiasm for things that
Speaker 1: I have enthusiasm for. I think I have more domain
Speaker 1: specific enthusiasm than the Big five can capture because I
Speaker 1: have a lot of non enthusiasms. I don't you have
Speaker 1: domain general enthusiasm, Dan, But I feel like I'm more
Speaker 1: to me specific. And for assertiveness, I again, I think
Speaker 1: it's very domain specific. Like I have a lot of
Speaker 1: grit and a lot of a lot of like uh yeah,
Speaker 1: well that's consciousness is a different demean but a lot
Speaker 1: of assertiveness for like when I really need to or
Speaker 1: when I really need to to say something or do something.
Speaker 1: But I feel like I mostly just have this very
Speaker 1: kind of carnishing, this sort of zen way of being
Speaker 1: with people until until I need to up up the dial,
Speaker 1: turn turn up the dial, ass you know, But I
Speaker 1: don't know if that's my default. I don't know if
Speaker 1: you know, but I think that is your default. You know,
Speaker 1: there's like this like constant.
Speaker 5: Like go go, go, go go energy that you bring,
Speaker 5: you bring to every situation, and I think that's super interesting,
Speaker 5: and well, it's a heck a lot of fun hanging
Speaker 5: out with you, that's for sure.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Right back at you, man, right back at you.
Speaker 3: You know, it's funny.
Speaker 2: I think that's one of the things that I mean,
Speaker 2: i'd be curious to know how yours developed over the years, right,
Speaker 2: Like how you've been able to cultivate, to curate a
Speaker 2: life and a lifestyle that allows you to to bring
Speaker 2: whichever is most appropriate to the four.
Speaker 4: I would also.
Speaker 2: Say what you mentioned before about a general enthusiasm. A
Speaker 2: lot of people will ask me that and they'll say,
Speaker 2: you know, you always have you always enthusiastic, you always energetic,
Speaker 2: And I'm like, hell no, you know, you just don't
Speaker 2: see me when I'm.
Speaker 1: Not enthus don't see me at my worst.
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, I mean, you don't want to see me
Speaker 2: my worst. But you know, look, you asked me this
Speaker 2: question because you and I are interacting and people ask
Speaker 2: me this question when we are interacting, But when I'm
Speaker 2: maybe by myself or a home alone or something, I'm
Speaker 2: not like bouncing off the walls.
Speaker 4: I'm like you do. I'm kind of laid back now.
Speaker 2: But people get me fired up. So people tend to
Speaker 2: think this is how I am you. However, as I said,
Speaker 2: you have this context and but people let me just say,
Speaker 2: and this may well be edited out. Scott Berry Coffin
Speaker 2: away from them from the psychology podcast wild Man, wild Man, Wow,
Speaker 2: local and super super engaged and engaging and like super social.
Speaker 2: It's really cool to see. I highly encourage you to
Speaker 2: find him. It's appropriate, don't stalk him orny if you
Speaker 2: get the chance to hang out with him.
Speaker 4: There's a lot more.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of Scott break off in there, and
Speaker 2: every little bit of it is awesome.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Dan, I really appreciate you saying
Speaker 1: that our friendship goes way back and we have so
Speaker 1: many mutual interests. One mutual interest of ours is education
Speaker 1: and helping to mentor young minds. Tell people a little
Speaker 1: bit about yourself, I should say, and your interests in
Speaker 1: helping young people thrive.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I'll give you the real short version
Speaker 2: of how I got here. As Scott said, one of
Speaker 2: our interests that we share is education. For the last
Speaker 2: ten years, I've taught, of course called I've co taught
Speaker 2: of course called the Science of Happiness along with my
Speaker 2: very good friend doctor Alan schlector at NYU, and we
Speaker 2: teach about thousand students a year about well being, not
Speaker 2: only the opportunities for well being. We tend to think
Speaker 2: of happiness and relationships and meaning and purpose and passion
Speaker 2: and things like that, but we also spend quite a
Speaker 2: bit of time on the challenges. All right, Alan's adolescent
Speaker 2: child now lesson psychiatrist?
Speaker 4: What stress?
Speaker 2: What's anxiety? What's depression? What is mental illness? What does
Speaker 2: therapy look like? So we don't want to ignore the hurdles.
Speaker 2: But I got into this because I was really interested.
Speaker 4: In performance and peak performance.
Speaker 2: My parents who both professional musicians, classical musicians. I spent
Speaker 2: ten years in the music business as an agent, and
Speaker 2: I got really interested in two main things. One is
Speaker 2: why when you take two people seemingly equal potential, one
Speaker 2: could really shoot to the moon and the other one
Speaker 2: could either have a rocky road and or potentially really
Speaker 2: never realize their potential. But the other one was that
Speaker 2: everyone we represented was at ICM, was successful. Everyone's making money,
Speaker 2: everyone has their name in lights. Everyone is achieving at
Speaker 2: a level which is pretty exceptional around the world. Some
Speaker 2: of them are really fulfilled, and someone in them were
Speaker 2: remarkably unfulfilled and unhappy. And I really wanted to know
Speaker 2: what divided, what's separated the two. So I went back
Speaker 2: to school to study performance psych and positive psych. And
Speaker 2: I think the theme that's run through everything is that
Speaker 2: I'm fascinated by human beings. That I think everyone has
Speaker 2: a unique potential, and that whether it's a performer or
Speaker 2: an athlete, or an executive, or a student, or just
Speaker 2: someone I run into on a subway or in a bar,
Speaker 2: I'm fascinated to know what makes them unique and where
Speaker 2: they are in the process, and if I can help,
Speaker 2: that makes my day.
Speaker 1: So it's your extraversion interacting with your openness to experience.
Speaker 2: A thank you for Thank you for the diagnosis, doctor Coffin.
Speaker 1: I appreciate that this makes for an interesting combination. That's wonderful.
Speaker 1: Your social curiosity is such a great character strength of yours.
Speaker 1: You spend ten years in the talent industry from the
Speaker 1: musical talent. That's classical music, right.
Speaker 4: That is, it's classical music. My parents both classical musicians.
Speaker 2: We may even get this later because it's one of
Speaker 2: the reasons Scott and I are such close friends.
Speaker 4: My father was in the Pittsburgh Symphony. My mom was
Speaker 4: an opera singer.
Speaker 2: I represented opera singers, conductors, directors, those kind of folks
Speaker 2: here in New York, well, based in New York, but
Speaker 2: around the world.
Speaker 4: Yeah, what was that like?
Speaker 1: Did you enjoy that? Oh?
Speaker 4: Man, I loved it. It was amazing.
Speaker 2: I mean, look, I love music more than maybe anything
Speaker 2: any other pursuit or field or art form. And I
Speaker 2: think most things are art forms. I see sport as
Speaker 2: an art form. I see business as an art form,
Speaker 2: but music is something that is It is my path
Speaker 2: to transcendence more frequently than anything else. So to be
Speaker 2: able to work with young talent, which is what I
Speaker 2: specialized in. When I say young in classical music and
Speaker 2: opera terms, we're talking like mid twenties or so.
Speaker 4: It was amazing, like hit on everything.
Speaker 2: I love helping other people in a field that I
Speaker 2: loved looking at audience and audience isn't thinking. Man, just
Speaker 2: wait until you hear this person in a couple of
Speaker 2: years as they're building up, like this entire audience is
Speaker 2: going to be like right, So being able to bring
Speaker 2: that to the world and individuals was really very very special,
Speaker 2: very special. Yeah, it was a wonderful decade.
Speaker 1: How long have you been really interested in talent then? Like,
Speaker 1: even like going back before that, have you been long
Speaker 1: fascinated with why some people are great, why some people aren't?
Speaker 1: Has that been an interest of yours for a long time?
Speaker 4: Yeah? I think so.
Speaker 2: I mean I think even in high school and college,
Speaker 2: I was fascinated by other people around me what it
Speaker 2: was that made them special, and not saying.
Speaker 4: That anyone was better than another. There was no hierarchy.
Speaker 2: It was simply that guy's you know, fresh and lacrosse player,
Speaker 2: and she's playing the violin, and he's a mathematics major
Speaker 2: and she's studying anthropology, and what is it that makes
Speaker 2: them so unique as human beings?
Speaker 4: And how are they going to realize it? Right?
Speaker 2: So having these conversations was always just a source of
Speaker 2: great pleasure for me to be able to listen, but
Speaker 2: also to help if I could. I found early on
Speaker 2: that a lot of people come just to come to
Speaker 2: me just have these conversations and come run something by
Speaker 2: I've been thinking about something and or conversations that I
Speaker 2: know that and still today I know they're not sharing
Speaker 2: things that they share with me with a lot of
Speaker 2: other people. So if I can do that resource fantastic.
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm giving back in a wonderful way.
Speaker 2: You know, which you do a lot too. I mean,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna I could turn everything around you Scott, because
Speaker 2: you have a classical music background too. You know you
Speaker 2: have a history.
Speaker 4: I yes, sing us something, What's hey, what's your favorite opera? Aria?
Speaker 2: I want to know that if you could stand on
Speaker 2: the stage of the net and sing any.
Speaker 4: Aria, what would it be? And why.
Speaker 2: Love?
Speaker 4: Don't stop there, baby, don't stop there? The words.
Speaker 2: God has just sung an aria from an Arita, I
Speaker 2: guess from Don Giovanni.
Speaker 4: He is seducing a woman at a window and it is.
Speaker 2: The cout the roll across a little little bit, you
Speaker 2: go different, differ, different characters.
Speaker 6: The legle lech me oh sam, the words.
Speaker 4: Yeah, man, we should just sing this whole podcast.
Speaker 1: I would have to remember the words. But that's a
Speaker 1: that was that's a laparello.
Speaker 4: Yeah exactly, that's right. And you know what, you'd make
Speaker 4: a marvelous laprello. Think about you. You know what, Lepre
Speaker 4: is there basically to help.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean he does some pretty unsavory things which
Speaker 2: you don't, but he is a tremendous when it comes
Speaker 2: to I am here to help this guy, and he
Speaker 2: pretty much stops it nothing until the end.
Speaker 1: I love that character.
Speaker 4: Hell raises up and he runs away.
Speaker 1: He runs right, So he's so funny in that scene.
Speaker 1: It's so funny. He's like, yeah, I'm out of here,
Speaker 1: but Don's on his own now. Well, but you know,
Speaker 1: I also would love to play the role of Don Giovanni.
Speaker 1: That would be fun too. I'd love to play that
Speaker 1: role as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well you would not be the first person to
Speaker 2: do both roles.
Speaker 4: They're interesting.
Speaker 2: Well, you play a lot of roles, Scott, I mean,
Speaker 2: how did you end up in all these different roles?
Speaker 2: You coach people, you write, you do podcasts, you teach,
Speaker 2: you do research, and I only hit about thirteen percent
Speaker 2: of your overall of what it is you do.
Speaker 1: What percentage are appropriate to discuss?
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I might ask you some questions later
Speaker 2: as we get increasingly comfortable here that your listeners might.
Speaker 4: Go oh, I had no idea.
Speaker 2: I really I've always wanted to ask Scott what's one
Speaker 2: thing he's never shared on air that he that he's
Speaker 2: ready to share. And we may or may not get
Speaker 2: to that.
Speaker 4: We'll see what happens. He happens.
Speaker 2: But you know, but it's fascinating, Scott, because I think
Speaker 2: we're an age of like of specialization, and you have
Speaker 2: managed to get involved in so many different parts of
Speaker 2: work and life and the world and your field and
Speaker 2: things beyond your field and stretching you know, our field.
Speaker 4: Have you done that?
Speaker 1: Oh, boy, sacrifices, sacrifices. I don't have.
Speaker 4: Children, say more like, what have you sacrifice? Boy?
Speaker 1: I mean, I think there's a certain kind of a
Speaker 1: single pointed mindedness to a lot of this that I've
Speaker 1: had for many, many years of my just relentless desire
Speaker 1: to redefine intelligence. And when I have a book project,
Speaker 1: I go so so deep into it, you know, and
Speaker 1: that flow state is just really so intense that I
Speaker 1: can I could spend days and days and uh forget
Speaker 1: to respond to people's emails or oh, I know, forget
Speaker 1: to return them.
Speaker 4: Call for forgive you to give you for that too.
Speaker 1: We understand. Yeah, no, I think that, like, like I
Speaker 1: said earlier, very domain specific enthusiasm. So if I if
Speaker 1: I go into something a project, I just really want
Speaker 1: to put my my all into it, and well that
Speaker 1: takes a lot of sacrifice. I mean, it takes a
Speaker 1: lot of real single minded focus. I'm on something over
Speaker 1: and over and over and could be related to just
Speaker 1: as well OCD symptoms as well. But let's be more charitable.
Speaker 4: Put to good use though, put to good use.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, what's the common thread? If you were say,
Speaker 2: you know what, what's the common thread here?
Speaker 4: For what?
Speaker 2: It is that you're doing everything you do and that's
Speaker 2: and that's and we're not going to go there yet.
Speaker 2: But even the things that you might not have shared
Speaker 2: with your listening audience, right, you don't have to imagine
Speaker 2: anything there. There's nothing untoward people. What's what's the thread
Speaker 2: that runs throughout?
Speaker 1: Well, we're doing this live, not live, but we're doing
Speaker 1: this recorded.
Speaker 2: Thank goodness, because I was like this is live, I
Speaker 2: would have warm pants.
Speaker 4: Okay, go ahead now.
Speaker 1: No, I mean I think there's this major thread is
Speaker 1: is human potential and and wanting to inspire people to
Speaker 1: be better and to make the choice in their life
Speaker 1: that lead them to growth, and also just for society
Speaker 1: to broaden their notion of what human potential looks like,
Speaker 1: not limit it so narrowly to IQ tests or not
Speaker 1: limit so much to one slice of a person, even
Speaker 1: like physical attractiveness. I think is we can reduce people
Speaker 1: to that and not really appreciate their finer qualities, you know,
Speaker 1: and still looking deeper at a human. Yeah, multidimensionality, baby,
Speaker 1: thank you for.
Speaker 2: Adding that baby to the end. Well you're doing You're
Speaker 2: doing a bang up job, man.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's all about multidimensionality.
Speaker 4: I was going to ask you what you've sacrificed, but hey,
Speaker 4: your show.
Speaker 1: Oh you know, I was I need to think about that.
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe I've sacrificed relationships. That's possible, really spending
Speaker 1: as much time and relationship on romantic relationships as I
Speaker 1: perhaps could have. Maybe I've sacrificed tenure at a university
Speaker 1: because I really value that independence so fiercely, the independence
Speaker 1: to have flow. So I probably have not taken jobs
Speaker 1: that I could have taken these sorts of things. Sure,
Speaker 1: but what I've gained is ormants. You know that you
Speaker 1: think about the difference between what I've given up, and
Speaker 1: what I've gained, I mean, I have such high quality friendships,
Speaker 1: yourself included, just to have such a great support structure
Speaker 1: of authors in a network who I really appreciate, and
Speaker 1: so there's just there's just so much gained by really
Speaker 1: getting sticking to your principles and sticking to your values
Speaker 1: and sticking to the things in your life that you
Speaker 1: know are right for you, and being ruthless about that is.
Speaker 1: I think it's tough, but it's a meaningful right.
Speaker 2: Ruthless is an interesting work, yes, because at least I
Speaker 2: tend to connect with the things that are that are
Speaker 2: not as savory, you know that things that we might
Speaker 2: not admire, cut throat so and so, so and so forth.
Speaker 2: But being ruthless for your principles, for your values, for
Speaker 2: what's meaningful is a very different way of putting it.
Speaker 4: I love that you phrased it that way.
Speaker 1: It can be ruthless. Sometimes you can have a million
Speaker 1: people asking things from you and being ruthless in terms
Speaker 1: of like if it's really not a line, just be
Speaker 1: like nope, no no no no no no no no
Speaker 1: no no no no no no see of nopes.
Speaker 4: Madeline Cohn History of the world.
Speaker 2: Right, No, no, no, no, no, no, yes no no
Speaker 2: no no no.
Speaker 1: No, yes, that's so funny.
Speaker 2: What is your thread? My thread for everything I'm doing? Yeah,
Speaker 2: oh man, it's really just like I said, I.
Speaker 4: Love helping people.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're a ball of love.
Speaker 2: Well, you know I have that on my business card. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Dan Lerner since nineteen seventy one, one big ball of love.
Speaker 2: That's you know, that's how I describe myself.
Speaker 1: Ha ha, that's what I see.
Speaker 4: Any well, you know I appreciate that, man.
Speaker 2: It's it brings me great joy to see other people
Speaker 2: living great lives. And if I can help, like.
Speaker 4: I said, it's exactly what I'll do. You know.
Speaker 2: I think that the struggle of the sacrifice, one of
Speaker 2: the struggles for me is managing time that way. Because
Speaker 2: you have a bunch of folks and you really want
Speaker 2: to be helpful for everyone.
Speaker 4: How do you do it? You know?
Speaker 2: I saw a bunch of students yesterday, and I was
Speaker 2: talking to a colleague the other day and they said, yeah,
Speaker 2: I have office hour, keep it to an hour, do
Speaker 2: it once a week. Many students get in there, They
Speaker 2: get in there. I think I met with six students yesterday,
Speaker 2: each one on one. The promise I make before every
Speaker 2: semester or the first class of every semester is I,
Speaker 2: you know, if you reach out to me, because there
Speaker 2: are five hundred sudents in the classroom, if you reach
Speaker 2: out to me, I will take you out for coffee.
Speaker 2: And it usually ends up being like an hour at
Speaker 2: least and maybe a walk. And so yesterday, you know,
Speaker 2: you teach until ten forty five and then you meet
Speaker 2: with students until like four forty five because you want
Speaker 2: to have these conversations and they're wonderful, and you get
Speaker 2: home and you like literally collapse.
Speaker 4: Because it's a lot.
Speaker 2: It's a lot to be able to try to give
Speaker 2: and you don't regret it, but you do sort of
Speaker 2: find yourself wondering what do I do now? You know,
Speaker 2: my family's out of town right now. They have been
Speaker 2: for a number of months. My son, as you know,
Speaker 2: is a performer, so they travel a lot. And so
Speaker 2: for me, I don't have to worry about not coming
Speaker 2: home to family right now, but what happens when they
Speaker 2: are And I'm like, how much time am I going
Speaker 2: to spend with this? How much more time am I
Speaker 2: going to spend in conversation? With somebody, I'm always like
Speaker 2: the last person to leave a conversation because I love them.
Speaker 4: Meanwhile, I know.
Speaker 2: I have other things I should probably be doing, writing,
Speaker 2: prepping for so it's really about a balance. But yeah,
Speaker 2: ultimately it's about giving up ourselves.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, that's that's very kind of you. That's very
Speaker 1: kind of you. Do you ever feel like students feel
Speaker 1: entitled to your time?
Speaker 2: I guess I tend to frame it differently, and I
Speaker 2: can it's a great question, and I can totally see
Speaker 2: how and why you're asking. I mean, you've been teaching
Speaker 2: for longer than I have, right and in university, so
Speaker 2: you had a huge array of experience with students.
Speaker 4: You know. It's interesting.
Speaker 2: I met with a student yesterday for I think the
Speaker 2: fifth time this semester, and every time we've met, he's
Speaker 2: had some really good questions, and they've usually been about
Speaker 2: himself and other relationships, and particularly a relationship with his parents.
Speaker 2: And I was probably spent five hours with him this semester.
Speaker 2: And one could look at that as entitled, well, you know,
Speaker 2: I need my time with you, and they if I'm
Speaker 2: going to take my time with you, he might think.
Speaker 2: But the story told me yesterday, like Scott, I held
Speaker 2: him back, but like when he walked away, like I
Speaker 2: went to tears. I mean what he shared with me
Speaker 2: about the culmination of our conversations about how he would
Speaker 2: speak to one of his parents, who he who had
Speaker 2: been really challenging his entire life, who had been I'm
Speaker 2: not gonna use word abusive, but had been incredibly demanding,
Speaker 2: over demanding to the point where it really hurt their relationship,
Speaker 2: and the way the conversation he had with me when
Speaker 2: he told me I sat and talked to my dad
Speaker 2: on zoom they live in another country, said my father.
Speaker 2: By the end he was in tears and my mother
Speaker 2: was holding him, and he was saying, I totally hear
Speaker 2: where you're coming from. I will be I'm going to
Speaker 2: do my best to be a better father. I'd never
Speaker 2: thought about it that way. I thought, Man, you know,
Speaker 2: if it takes a measly five hours to get to
Speaker 2: a point where this kid is so excited to go
Speaker 2: home and see his parents in the way he hadn't
Speaker 2: been in a long time, worth every second. So I mean,
Speaker 2: do some students feel like there's like indulgence.
Speaker 4: Going on there?
Speaker 2: Yeah, there are some, But I figured they wouldn't ask
Speaker 2: me if they didn't need a near and uh so
Speaker 2: there you go. Could I ask for anything better than
Speaker 2: this kid to have a better relationship with his parents
Speaker 2: after nineteen years?
Speaker 4: Not much so not in that regard.
Speaker 2: There's certainly students who are like, I deserve an A
Speaker 2: plus and i'd beat the paper. I'm like, you actually
Speaker 2: deserve like, you know, like a TA would grade it
Speaker 2: and be like, I don't want this be and I
Speaker 2: look at it and I'm.
Speaker 4: Like, you actually deserve like a seme minus.
Speaker 2: So I think there's an entitlement in terms of grading
Speaker 2: and expectation of what they deserve in certain other ways.
Speaker 2: But I kindly set them straight in a way where
Speaker 2: it's let's help you get better at this.
Speaker 1: Have you read Coddling of the American Mind by Jonathan Hyde?
Speaker 7: Yeah?
Speaker 4: And Greg it's been in a number of years. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Does that resonate with your experience in the class or
Speaker 1: do you see the issue differently?
Speaker 2: Well, I'll tell you what, because we're jamming here, I'd
Speaker 2: love to know what your thoughts are on that jamming
Speaker 2: away you tap, I don't know about you, like you're
Speaker 2: you're you're teaching too and you're teaching a mighty big
Speaker 2: class right now, and you always have for you know,
Speaker 2: top big classes.
Speaker 4: You have a lot of experience with students. How does
Speaker 4: that resonate for you?
Speaker 2: What's your experience with students and what are your thoughts
Speaker 2: in relation to that material? Are you dodging the bullet No,
Speaker 2: I'm I'm I'm tossing you back the bullet pillow.
Speaker 4: Here's the speaking pillow. Now it's yours.
Speaker 1: He's dogs in the bullet Okay, yeah you are. But
Speaker 1: you know, I love the point that they make about
Speaker 1: students increasingly suffering mental illness on campus, more so in
Speaker 1: the past ten years, and a certain fragility there among
Speaker 1: the students that we have never seen before. Do I
Speaker 1: agree one hundred percent with the framing of you know,
Speaker 1: we need to just teach more anti fragility classes, you know,
Speaker 1: like tough love. You know, I don't know if that
Speaker 1: fits my style of the way in which I like
Speaker 1: to address the issue. I like to also include a
Speaker 1: healthy dose of validating their experiences. I always find that
Speaker 1: goes a long way.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 1: Then a sort of spirit upon which a lot of
Speaker 1: people who read that book really the reason why they
Speaker 1: love the book is a lot of them, are, you know,
Speaker 1: like to make fun of the kids, you know, in
Speaker 1: a way of like, look those liberal snowflakes, right, I mean,
Speaker 1: that's not a compassionate lens to ring to the table
Speaker 1: in my point of view. And we have to be
Speaker 1: honest at a very large proportion of people like that
Speaker 1: book for that reason, so that they can be like, haha,
Speaker 1: see you look, so finally someone called out these idiots, right,
Speaker 1: But I don't think that's the spirit upon with which
Speaker 1: Heighten and Wukianov really really mean it. I think annoying
Speaker 1: both of them, They really would like to see greater
Speaker 1: mental health among the students. The question is what is
Speaker 1: the right balance of validating experience versus permission laying them overstep,
Speaker 1: you know, everything in ways that they don't learn or grow.
Speaker 1: You know, what point do you show tough love, you
Speaker 1: know sometimes in which is ultimately good for their growth?
Speaker 1: And I think that's that's an interesting line. I don't
Speaker 1: know exactly precisely what that line is, but I know
Speaker 1: when I see it, it's like other things, you know,
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, it's a supreme court.
Speaker 4: How are you doing?
Speaker 1: I know, when a student is asking for so many
Speaker 1: accommodations that they don't need.
Speaker 4: I know that, right, Yeah, now I'm with you.
Speaker 2: Look, the challenge too, is every student's different in terms
Speaker 2: of their needs. And I always I always look at
Speaker 2: these students who might fall into the category of being
Speaker 2: coddled as here's students who have the opportunity to grow up?
Speaker 2: How is this student? Where is their opportunity?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 2: And how do you how do you provide that for them?
Speaker 2: How do you speak to them? How do you share feedback?
Speaker 4: Even? What are the questions you need to ask to
Speaker 4: better understand that student? Right? Why might they be a
Speaker 4: little fragile? The ability to help.
Speaker 2: One student mature a little bit, or improve a little bit,
Speaker 2: or become less fragile, or develop more resilience, I'd rather
Speaker 2: sort of put it that way.
Speaker 4: Resilience is going to be very different from another.
Speaker 1: Yes, I mean, what do you do with a student
Speaker 1: who has zero resilience? The every single slightest thing they
Speaker 1: fall apart? You know, what do you do with that
Speaker 1: kind of student? You know, it's like, you know, let's
Speaker 1: say you give me the easiest homework assignment and they're like, oh,
Speaker 1: it caused me so much stress. I couldn't do it.
Speaker 4: It's I was.
Speaker 1: Like, okay, well, what do you want me to do
Speaker 1: about that?
Speaker 4: You know?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's that that kind of Honestly, that
Speaker 2: kind of responds from a student. If I heard that
Speaker 2: from a student, and I certainly have. My tendency is
Speaker 2: go directly to tell me about your experience here in college,
Speaker 2: what's working for you? You know, like coming more about
Speaker 2: why you ended up here, and I want to know.
Speaker 1: As opposed to how are you here?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Well, hey, I mean students, Like, that's the thing a
Speaker 2: college students, man, you know, they knew where every meal
Speaker 2: was coming from in high school, not all of them,
Speaker 2: but many of them.
Speaker 4: You knew where you were eating.
Speaker 2: You knew in your class with the bell literally wrung.
Speaker 2: Do you remember those days when you'd be sitting in
Speaker 2: class and the bell would ring.
Speaker 4: You're like, oh, time to go next class.
Speaker 2: And by the way, if I'm not there, the hall
Speaker 2: monitor is gonna catch me and I'm gonna get in trouble. Right, Like,
Speaker 2: there's everything is so structured, and you go to college
Speaker 2: and it's like, yeah, you can go to class and
Speaker 2: I go to class.
Speaker 4: I don't know, you know, you can eat whatever you
Speaker 4: want whenever you want wherever you.
Speaker 2: Want, you know you can. You don't know who you're
Speaker 2: gonna be sleeping with. I mean roommates, of course, roommates,
Speaker 2: But like now, the point is, like everything is, everything
Speaker 2: is wide open, and that is a stress and do
Speaker 2: itself right.
Speaker 4: So it's always been that way. So I'm not using
Speaker 4: that as an excuse.
Speaker 2: When we were in college, you know, lo those many
Speaker 2: years ago, when you know, when my parents took me
Speaker 2: to college and the horse and buggy, it was no different.
Speaker 2: But there are factors right now that are clearly really challenging.
Speaker 2: And I think and I don't think every instructor thinks
Speaker 2: about it this way.
Speaker 4: I mean, I guess how fam this way.
Speaker 2: I don't think every university instructor thinks about it this way,
Speaker 2: but I certainly think and nor should they.
Speaker 4: I'm not saying they should.
Speaker 2: Part of my job is to help a student as
Speaker 2: a human being, not just as a vessel for information.
Speaker 2: But look, if you look at the data, it's emerging
Speaker 2: over the last decade on empathy period in the workplace,
Speaker 2: even right empathetic leaders. There's a huge benefit to having
Speaker 2: empathetic leaders when it comes to retaining employees overall, well
Speaker 2: being and happiness. Productivity create creativity. Empathetic leaders matter in
Speaker 2: a huge way. And so from from me as a
Speaker 2: as an instructor, I guess I think I'm a leader
Speaker 2: and it's important for me to be empathetic. And so
Speaker 2: I'm going to be here to listen and look, you
Speaker 2: can do this class. You can take this class.
Speaker 4: You don't take this class.
Speaker 2: I had a student who failed twice, right, I was like, dude,
Speaker 2: you just failed happiness twice. You know, Look a lot
Speaker 2: of still happiness in life. So I don't mean to
Speaker 2: make light, but it's I'm still here for you. You know
Speaker 2: you want to come back take it again. I'm going
Speaker 2: to give you those papers with tons and tons of feedback.
Speaker 2: You want to rewrite them, rewrite them. That's the opportunity.
Speaker 2: Might be a pain in the ask to you, but tough.
Speaker 2: You know I'm still here. Let's do it. If you're down.
Speaker 1: So, wow, that's your class hard.
Speaker 4: I don't think it's hard.
Speaker 2: I mean students are supposed to have something like forty
Speaker 2: five hours of total work. I believe in a four
Speaker 2: course load. That's before you spend time with friends, before
Speaker 2: you might have your job or your second job. To
Speaker 2: pay college before you're playing your sport or a part
Speaker 2: of your club. I don't think it's hard. I think
Speaker 2: that it's not easy, but it can be challenging provided
Speaker 2: you take on the opportunities that we try to present.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 2: You can look, anyone can write a reflection paper on
Speaker 2: a gratitude journal, or on use of character strengths.
Speaker 4: Or food, mood or sleep.
Speaker 2: But if you really want to dig in, spend time
Speaker 2: thinking about what you're grateful for and why. If you
Speaker 2: really want to spend dig in and spend time thinking
Speaker 2: about about how you're putting a character strength to use
Speaker 2: throughout the week, it's gonna take a bit more time.
Speaker 2: It's also gonna be more meaningful and hopefully more enduring,
Speaker 2: have more of an impact on that student. So I
Speaker 2: don't think we don't see our job out on myself
Speaker 2: to make it hard. We see you to make an
Speaker 2: opportunity for students who want to work hard to not
Speaker 2: learn the information, but to create change that they're looking
Speaker 2: to create.
Speaker 1: I wish I could take your class, Dan, you can,
Speaker 1: you're invited, Thank you. I don't know if i'd pass.
Speaker 1: It sounds hard.
Speaker 2: Man, Come on, bet hey, you know but this is
Speaker 2: one of the things, Scott, is that you are one
Speaker 2: of the people I know who knows the change takes
Speaker 2: time and takes hard work. So I see you doing
Speaker 2: these things, you know, setting a course for meditation for yourself,
Speaker 2: getting off of social media for a certain amount of time,
Speaker 2: getting involved in practices, working out or other exercises that
Speaker 2: are beneficial for well being. And when you lay into
Speaker 2: the man, you don't you don't go halfway, steal with
Speaker 2: both hands, like get it done and there it is
Speaker 2: all in one hundred percent, one hundred percent.
Speaker 4: Thanks. You're like the ideal student.
Speaker 2: Oh man, you'd be amazing, you know, or or alternatively
Speaker 2: you could come and teach it.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about friendship. Yeah, what do you think is
Speaker 1: the secret sauce of a good friendship?
Speaker 4: Well, you know, it's funny.
Speaker 2: One of the things I thought of before we started
Speaker 2: today is how you and I met. If you're cool
Speaker 2: with that, it's worth it's worth sharing. I mean on
Speaker 2: grinder there we were naked and the Ganges and I
Speaker 2: looked over at him and I thought, who is that?
Speaker 4: Very very now?
Speaker 2: We met over at a dinner where we were both
Speaker 2: invited guests.
Speaker 1: Yep, correct, correct.
Speaker 4: And we had been sort of shunned to the end
Speaker 4: of the table.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, and yeah, yeah, I'll just I'll leave it
Speaker 2: at that for right now. And I was like, oh,
Speaker 2: everyone else is so far away, but there's this guy
Speaker 2: sitting across from me.
Speaker 4: How you doing? What's going on? Man? How are you here?
Speaker 2: And long story short, Scott at that point was running
Speaker 2: the imagination in institude pen and told me a bit
Speaker 2: of a story, which I'm sure ninety eight percent of
Speaker 2: your listeners know because it's an amazing story and who
Speaker 2: could forget that story? And so when Scott wanted to
Speaker 2: study intelligence, he wanted to go to Carnegie Mellon his
Speaker 2: way in was to audition for the voice department.
Speaker 4: Would you like to take it from there?
Speaker 1: No? No, No, I want to get to how we are,
Speaker 1: how we met and everything.
Speaker 2: He said, Yeah, I auditioned for the voice department. I
Speaker 2: got in as an opera singer. And I was like,
Speaker 2: wait a second, A, that's amazing. B who's your teacher,
Speaker 2: Scott said, Mimi Lerner. I said that's my mom, And
Speaker 2: that's it, that's my mom.
Speaker 4: I was like, all right, man, the world's too small.
Speaker 2: And I think Scott might have loved my mom as
Speaker 2: much as I did, and actually, for what I can gather,
Speaker 2: she loved.
Speaker 4: Him, maybe even more than she loved me. But that
Speaker 4: was it.
Speaker 2: And you know, it's interesting because I was thinking about this, like,
Speaker 2: what was it?
Speaker 4: There are a few people.
Speaker 2: In life I can literally count them on one hand
Speaker 2: in my entire life where you knew you were going
Speaker 2: to be friends when the first five minutes, and I
Speaker 2: mean friends like, oh, maybe'll hang out. I'm like, oh,
Speaker 2: that like brothers, We're gonna be good friends for a
Speaker 2: really long time.
Speaker 4: Brothers exactly. Scott always says, you know, we both say
Speaker 4: my brother from another mother. And so there are goarly.
Speaker 2: Some essential elements that well, elements of French characteristics of
Speaker 2: friendship set that we can put down the list proximity,
Speaker 2: shared interests, so.
Speaker 4: On and so forth. But the secret sauce.
Speaker 2: Is an interesting one, you know, And I think if
Speaker 2: we could really know exactly if that secret sauce is,
Speaker 2: that would be on the front page of The York
Speaker 2: Times for the next three hundred and seventy five years.
Speaker 4: Maybe yeh, But I'd be curious, what do you think
Speaker 4: the secret sauce is?
Speaker 2: Because you are so tight and you have a couple
Speaker 2: of friends who you're really tight with, and I have
Speaker 2: a couple friends I'm super tight with.
Speaker 7: What is it?
Speaker 1: Well, I think we underestimate the value of similarity. As
Speaker 1: much as I talk about universal love and how we
Speaker 1: need to overcome tribalism, I think when it comes to friendship,
Speaker 1: I think the ones I'm closest with are those that
Speaker 1: are dialed into a similar frequency as me, similar set
Speaker 1: of values. Some people would look down upon the fact
Speaker 1: that I don't really have that many close close friends
Speaker 1: who have very different values from me. They may say, oh,
Speaker 1: that's it, or hypocritical of me, considering I preach universal love.
Speaker 1: But I'd say, well, I think I do show universal
Speaker 1: love to those with very different values than me, but
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that they earned the right to be my
Speaker 1: good friend. Like I think there is something to say
Speaker 1: for similarity and worldview and sense of humor. I think
Speaker 1: that we really underestimate the value of sharing someone's sense
Speaker 1: of humor with someone else. You know, we both get
Speaker 1: really dirty in our sense of humor when we're hanging
Speaker 1: out with each other, when the microphones off of us,
Speaker 1: when the microphones off of us, think Bob Saget.
Speaker 4: People think Bob Saget. Yeah, yeah, yeah, not full house
Speaker 4: Bob Saget. Yeah, like you know the Aristocrats, it's Bob Saget.
Speaker 4: I'll leave it at that. You've seen that movie, right,
Speaker 4: I did?
Speaker 1: I saw that movie?
Speaker 2: Okay, good, all right, yes, all right, people, you should
Speaker 2: all go see that unless you have sensitive ears, in
Speaker 2: which case you should stay as far away as possible.
Speaker 4: I'm sorry. Yes, we have filthy, dirty sensites of humor.
Speaker 4: Go on, yes, right.
Speaker 1: I think that's underestimated in a friendship.
Speaker 4: I was going to say, I want to hear what
Speaker 4: you want to say next.
Speaker 1: I want to hear what you say.
Speaker 2: What I was going to say, I want to hear
Speaker 2: what you want to say.
Speaker 1: Oh I see, oh us, well, I mean, but building
Speaker 1: up from friendship to community, what does it mean to
Speaker 1: find a healthy community? What's an unhealthy community?
Speaker 2: Dan?
Speaker 1: What are the characteristics of an unhealthy community?
Speaker 4: Oh? That's that's such an interesting one.
Speaker 2: I'd like to think that there was a time we
Speaker 2: were having conversations, and maybe that's part of friendship too,
Speaker 2: when you have a back and forth, just to take
Speaker 2: a step back to the previous topic, you know, I
Speaker 2: was so interested to hear about your life, and you
Speaker 2: were seemingly equally or at least doing a really good
Speaker 2: job of pretending to be interested in you know what
Speaker 2: my love was like too.
Speaker 1: Yeah I was not pretending, but yeah.
Speaker 2: Oh I know, Oh you're break it to me now.
Speaker 2: Actually again, I don't give a peep about you. I
Speaker 2: just you know, yeah, I just think you're very handsome.
Speaker 2: So I think, community wise, and to your point also
Speaker 2: about how we get super tight with people who might
Speaker 2: have shared values. I think there was a time when
Speaker 2: community you could have lots of different people with lots
Speaker 2: of different values, and you could have conversations and they'd
Speaker 2: be civil, and there would be there would be back
Speaker 2: and forth, there'd be a dialogue a community. It's sort
Speaker 2: of like it seems increasingly everyone needs to agree on
Speaker 2: almost everything or you are no longer in that community
Speaker 2: in a way. And I'm not just talking politically, I'm
Speaker 2: talking about socially, right, how were thinking about equality in
Speaker 2: our commun There's there is such a little room for
Speaker 2: discussion about that that it's almost like we shy away,
Speaker 2: especially in our professional lives. I've certainly had dinner table
Speaker 2: conversations in my community that has gone awry, and.
Speaker 3: Some folks you don't see as much, but certainly a professional.
Speaker 2: Live the risk is huge taking a misstep, and so
Speaker 2: whether we are consciously doing it or not, I think
Speaker 2: a lot of the way we call it today community
Speaker 2: but professionally but also personally is am I able to
Speaker 2: say things without fear of repercussion. So I think that
Speaker 2: that has led to unhealthiness in the way that we
Speaker 2: form communities. I'd like to think of healthy communities being
Speaker 2: able to push back and have a healthy debate about something,
Speaker 2: but that's ever more challenging, especially in the day of
Speaker 2: recording and video, and you know, it's it's a very
Speaker 2: touchy thing, very touchy thing. So who can blame you
Speaker 2: for staying closer to people who might share this values
Speaker 2: closer and close and making the circle of trust a
Speaker 2: little smaller and building the walls a little bit higher,
Speaker 2: whether you're conscious about it or not.
Speaker 4: Unfortunately, that takes away from our ability to grow.
Speaker 1: It really does, it really does. I'd like to, you know,
Speaker 1: mix and match different communities, not necessarily bring them all together,
Speaker 1: but be a part of communities that perhaps wouldn't be
Speaker 1: a part of each other.
Speaker 4: Right right, But it's funny.
Speaker 2: You and I were having us the other day and
Speaker 2: I said, certain, I asked if you'd ever seen Woody
Speaker 2: Allen Zelig. Not that I should be talking about Woody
Speaker 2: Allen for this conversation, right, but like the ability to
Speaker 2: sort of meld into different places is I think it's
Speaker 2: such an amazing skill and you have that in spades.
Speaker 4: Thanks man. How do you do that?
Speaker 2: I mean, for the folks listening out there who are
Speaker 2: interested in I'd love to expand my suite of communities
Speaker 2: to be able to be involved in other things and
Speaker 2: learn from other folks and be a part of that.
Speaker 4: How do you do it? You know? You just do it.
Speaker 1: You just do it, You be, you be among people.
Speaker 1: You do it, you do it. You're a very high
Speaker 1: in social exploration. I feel like someone could say anything
Speaker 1: to you and you would turn it into a question.
Speaker 1: So I'd be like, oh, Dan, your face looks like
Speaker 1: a I don't know whatever a pancake that got And
Speaker 1: you'd be like, oh, oh, tell me, why do you
Speaker 1: think that? You know? I feel like someone could say
Speaker 1: something crazy to you, right, and you'd be like, oh,
Speaker 1: why do you think that? I mean, I feel like
Speaker 1: I could see that I could see you responding to
Speaker 1: someone that way, you know, like for you punch them,
Speaker 1: at least you ask a question first.
Speaker 2: No, you're right, but I think I've honed it over
Speaker 2: the years, over the past really five years, more than ever.
Speaker 2: I mean, there were times before I was like, you know,
Speaker 2: I wasn't I want to ask a questions, but it.
Speaker 3: Was hard to ask a question when it was so
Speaker 3: where was.
Speaker 2: Borderline offensive what someone was saying, You're not I'm not
Speaker 2: learning anything from this, you know, tell me more about that,
Speaker 2: Tell me why you think the way you think, so
Speaker 2: on and so forth, because that's the.
Speaker 4: Only way you're going to have that dialogue.
Speaker 2: Plus, when people talk about things they feel they feel
Speaker 2: like they're more understood right as frankfully they are, And
Speaker 2: we're not going to change our mind. We're just shooting
Speaker 2: to understand them, if I understand it correctly.
Speaker 1: So, yeah, humans are humans to that again, humans are humans.
Speaker 4: Yes, humans are humans. Humans are humans.
Speaker 2: But I would say, if there are folks out there
Speaker 2: who are looking to expand their communities, that's it.
Speaker 4: That's to get curious. What do you stand to.
Speaker 2: Learn from this person or this community, Like that's all
Speaker 2: you know, I'll say that for another time, but tart
Speaker 2: getting used to asking those questions where you want to
Speaker 2: know more as opposed to trying to tell them what
Speaker 2: you think.
Speaker 1: Yes, I love it. Well, what do you think about
Speaker 1: the self help industry?
Speaker 2: Well, you're just gonna drop that one on me, like
Speaker 2: out of nowhere. You couldn't have been like have the
Speaker 2: Yankees these days?
Speaker 4: I know you have some strong opinions. I do. I
Speaker 4: do self out community.
Speaker 2: Man, this is one where I really want to turn
Speaker 2: it back to you, not dodge a bull, because I'm fascinated,
Speaker 2: also because and frankly because I'm a little afraid about
Speaker 2: what I'm going to say.
Speaker 4: How do we Where do we go from here?
Speaker 2: I mean, I'll say it, But do you want to
Speaker 2: you want to like lay down the groundwork on this one?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 1: I want to hear your thoughts on it?
Speaker 4: Okay? Can I use found language on this podcast? Yes?
Speaker 4: Of course, of course. There's no reason to resort the
Speaker 4: foul language. No reason.
Speaker 2: No reason people swear because they don't they don't know
Speaker 2: the words to use to express what they're trying to
Speaker 2: really say. I think I just think words matter. I
Speaker 2: do you think words are some my favorite things in life? Yes,
Speaker 2: So I'm going to avoid as much as I love
Speaker 2: and I won't say it dropping a good f bomb.
Speaker 4: Fuck it just feels good. Uh. You know, I don't
Speaker 4: have to go there.
Speaker 2: I am not a huge fan of self help industry,
Speaker 2: but I think, WHOA.
Speaker 1: That's controversial, so controversial?
Speaker 4: Look at me getting all controversial. I'm not a big fan,
Speaker 4: I know. Look at this. How many people just turned
Speaker 4: off your show forever? Oh, that's got very coffin.
Speaker 2: I loved him for all seven hundred and seventy three
Speaker 2: episodes until he asked Dan Learner about self help.
Speaker 4: I will never listen to him again. Ever, how can
Speaker 4: he have that man on the What's self Hope?
Speaker 5: Dan?
Speaker 4: You know, here's the thing I say when I say that, Scott.
Speaker 2: You know who's gonna call me after this podcast drops,
Speaker 2: Tucker Carlson. Tucker Carlson's be like, hey, I heard you,
Speaker 2: Scott Very coffann episode on self help.
Speaker 4: I'd love to have you on the show. That's that's
Speaker 4: how controversial it is.
Speaker 2: No, Tucker, I'm just gonna say you right now, not
Speaker 2: going into show so self. I look at self help
Speaker 2: from a historical and efficacious way.
Speaker 4: I guess right, But I.
Speaker 2: Think it's really important in the spirit of understanding it,
Speaker 2: to get a sense of what it is, right, because
Speaker 2: if you just use the word self help, there is
Speaker 2: nothing wrong with helping yourself, right, There's nothing wrong someone
Speaker 2: pursuing materials or individuals that they think will be helpful
Speaker 2: in their quest to.
Speaker 4: Have greater well being.
Speaker 2: The challenge I have is that nobody has one self
Speaker 2: help book on their shelf, right, they have forty, and
Speaker 2: then as soon as they're done with that one, maybe
Speaker 2: thirty days after because they've tried to do whatever that
Speaker 2: self help or told them to do for thirty days
Speaker 2: and realized it didn't work, and now it's time to
Speaker 2: go on to the next one.
Speaker 4: They'll buy another one.
Speaker 2: I am challenged by self help because ninety five percent
Speaker 2: of it is built to be sold rather than to
Speaker 2: be I think, and marketed to sell as many as possible, right,
Speaker 2: rather than to be genuinely helpful and employing science in
Speaker 2: a way that would be beneficial for folks. You know,
Speaker 2: when you start a book with this book will help
Speaker 2: every individual who reads it, or a session with everyone
Speaker 2: here will walk out of here a better person. You're
Speaker 2: setting the tone for people to potentially be less happy
Speaker 2: than they were when they walked in the first place,
Speaker 2: or read that book in the first place.
Speaker 3: What's wrong with me?
Speaker 4: You know? Everyone else supposed to be helped by this.
Speaker 4: Why am I not being helped? Why is it not
Speaker 4: working for me?
Speaker 2: I felt great when I went to that week long workshop,
Speaker 2: you know, and I felt quack for another week or
Speaker 2: two afterwards, And now here I am again. I need
Speaker 2: to go to another workshop.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 2: I think it's praying on people's on people's unappiness. It's
Speaker 2: preying on people's lack of fulfillment and rather than being
Speaker 2: effective too often not always, depending on how we're defining it.
Speaker 2: It's an industry that basically built to have you buy
Speaker 2: more and more and more.
Speaker 4: What are your thought? I can go on, man, but
Speaker 4: I want to know what you think?
Speaker 1: Well, so what's a better approach? So how do you
Speaker 1: help without the self help?
Speaker 2: I guess I would take the word easy out. I
Speaker 2: take the word everyone out. I take the word or
Speaker 2: term seven days or seven things or thirty days you
Speaker 2: know out. I think that getting help more often than not,
Speaker 2: not every time, there are people sitting out there going.
Speaker 2: But I bought so and So's book, Right, I went
Speaker 2: to this world shop.
Speaker 4: I feel great. There are folks out there who benefit.
Speaker 3: Don't get me wrong, but real work is hard.
Speaker 2: Most of the time. Real change is hard. So being
Speaker 2: able to sit if one has the means or of
Speaker 2: one has the resource one on one or even in
Speaker 2: a group setting where they are going on a regular
Speaker 2: basis with a professional who's been trained in a mental
Speaker 2: health professional.
Speaker 4: I think that that's it.
Speaker 2: And it's not easy, and it's not thirty days, and
Speaker 2: it's not standing in a room and jumping up and
Speaker 2: down that might be helpful and you know it might
Speaker 2: be part of your one's path, And it's not reading
Speaker 2: a book and deciding that's the one thing.
Speaker 4: I think.
Speaker 2: It's about a process in which you are working with
Speaker 2: individual or a group has been trained specifically to help
Speaker 2: people with well being. Right that that is where I
Speaker 2: would go. He's got hard discussions. It's it's about realizing
Speaker 2: that it's.
Speaker 4: Not all good.
Speaker 2: You can't necessarily manifest everything in the next thirty days.
Speaker 2: Right that there is no course of miracles which by
Speaker 2: the end of which you will be bulletproof. If you
Speaker 2: drink that coffee, and because your atomic habits will awaken the.
Speaker 3: Giant within right, let's strike and string them together all day.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, right, this.
Speaker 4: Is you know, yeah, they are, they are.
Speaker 2: But look, we have to take into consideration with the science, says,
Speaker 2: and if someone is spouting and saying there is no downside,
Speaker 2: you better believe that there is.
Speaker 4: And so I think it goes back to those therapies
Speaker 4: like are we doing the work?
Speaker 2: Are we really asking the questions? So I won't go
Speaker 2: deeper into certain individuals. But if you look at the
Speaker 2: science supporting a lot.
Speaker 3: Of it got a bullshit, but it is eye catching.
Speaker 2: It is definitely eye catching, right for like the anti
Speaker 2: vax campaigns, right, Like the science is bullshit, but hey,
Speaker 2: it's been made into something that's super is glitterally, so
Speaker 2: I'll stick with it, right, rather than look deeper the science.
Speaker 1: Okay, Well that's you know, that's what makes you different.
Speaker 1: It seems like you care about evidence based Yeah, and
Speaker 1: that's not everyone really cares about that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly. And look, I guess there's some things that work.
Speaker 2: I've always said, and I when people ask me what
Speaker 2: I think about some of my Tony Robbins, I'm like,
Speaker 2: I think the man is them with charismatic human beings
Speaker 2: I've ever seen in my life. And if people come
Speaker 2: to him and he can help them, that is amazing.
Speaker 2: There's no research supporting what he does. Why because you're
Speaker 2: not going to get a hundred percent because no research
Speaker 2: will give you a hundred percent. And once you drop
Speaker 2: at one hundred percent, your marketing power goes. Now, look
Speaker 2: his interventions. Look, maybe they're seventy two percent effective for
Speaker 2: a certain population.
Speaker 3: That's a really impressive number. Right, Maybe you are.
Speaker 2: Feeling better for the next three to six months, that's
Speaker 2: really impressive. But I want to know which groups, and
Speaker 2: I want to know who it's right for, and I
Speaker 2: want to know how long, and I want to know
Speaker 2: how to follow.
Speaker 4: Up, you know.
Speaker 2: So I don't mean to take anything away because there
Speaker 2: are people sitting out there going, oh, I've listened to
Speaker 2: that person religiously.
Speaker 4: I follow them on Instagram, and how dare you?
Speaker 3: It might be working for you, right, and that's wonderful, But.
Speaker 4: I also think there are lot of folks who.
Speaker 2: Are suffering as a result of believing it works for
Speaker 2: one hundred percent of people for the rest of their lives.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a great point.
Speaker 1: It's a really great point. How do you how you
Speaker 1: add that nuance while still making while still inspiring people
Speaker 1: and giving them hope to at least try things is tricky,
Speaker 1: but yeah, I know it's wonderful too.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: I really like I really like a lot of your points.
Speaker 4: The world needs a book from you, Dan, Okay, tell me.
Speaker 2: Uh any any book in particular?
Speaker 4: I can it? Can I do it in crayon?
Speaker 1: We need to write a book. You sounded a little bit.
Speaker 1: You started sounding a little bit like John Stewart, and
Speaker 1: I don't know how to why. I think that your
Speaker 1: tonality eth started and he's he's very he's a very
Speaker 1: smart guy. He's a very smart guy.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, I'm not as smart John Stewart, but
Speaker 2: but I'm good with with with imitations.
Speaker 4: So yeah, who can you do? I think I can
Speaker 4: do some John Stewart. I can do some Uh, I
Speaker 4: can do some Bill Clinton, A people.
Speaker 2: I can do a Barack Obama. So no, no, no,
Speaker 2: I mean I can't put me on the spot like that.
Speaker 2: I'm good with accents.
Speaker 4: But it was almost like coy podcast earlier.
Speaker 2: So that's true. Yeah, that's true. No, I think I
Speaker 2: froze on that one. I can do better impressions. Cut
Speaker 2: that cut that, but I do I do very very
Speaker 2: good ros in the accents you said, I do very
Speaker 2: very well.
Speaker 4: So, but a book, I write a.
Speaker 2: Book, like you know, the question is on what something
Speaker 2: I've struggled with for some time.
Speaker 4: But this may be one of the topics. I'm passionate
Speaker 4: about that.
Speaker 2: Because you know, just like you and I are passionate,
Speaker 2: bate helping people, passionate about things that are hurting people.
Speaker 1: You should write a book on taking on the self
Speaker 1: help industry. That that should be the book. You should
Speaker 1: just go all in thought about it. We'll talk, we'll
Speaker 1: talk well written, talk more about that.
Speaker 4: I have a title.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so maybe good good?
Speaker 3: But you had, I mean you had what is his
Speaker 3: name from the Quick Fix on who was terrific?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 2: I mean I think he did a nice job of
Speaker 2: addressing a certain part of that one.
Speaker 7: In that industry too, Jesse singall or exactly exactly exactly yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 7: I'd like to see. It's from the side of and
Speaker 7: what do we do right? Yes, this is a problem.
Speaker 4: What do we do? Yes, some of it's good.
Speaker 2: How do we understand what's good and what can how
Speaker 2: can people understand what works for them? And what are
Speaker 2: the questions they might want to ask and what are
Speaker 2: some things they can do. Knowing this is not the
Speaker 2: end all be all, let me take a little bit
Speaker 2: of Dave, ask me a little bit of someone else,
Speaker 2: and let me do some therapy on the side, Like
Speaker 2: you know, how do we do it?
Speaker 4: What's right for me?
Speaker 1: That's right for me. That's that's the million dollar question.
Speaker 1: Self actualization is where it's at my man, that that's
Speaker 1: my that's my it's my jam.
Speaker 4: I've heard of that about you. I've heard of that.
Speaker 2: Hey, Hey, thank Scott.
Speaker 3: You should write a book on self actualization.
Speaker 4: Thanks Dan, that's a good idea. Yeah, see, good ideas.
Speaker 6: Man.
Speaker 2: I knew you had it in you can't wait, can't wait.
Speaker 2: If you know what that book is going to be,
Speaker 2: it's going to be transcendent. I'm very excited for it
Speaker 2: to come out.
Speaker 1: Thanks, Thanks, Thanks buddy. Well, our time has come to
Speaker 1: an end here today, but we have fifty six more
Speaker 1: topics that we were hoping to discuss, so I'll have
Speaker 1: to bring you back on and we should do some
Speaker 1: We should periodically have an ongoing series with me and
Speaker 1: you on this podcast. What do you think?
Speaker 4: I think it's an amazing idea. I'd love to do that. Man.
Speaker 2: You know, the more time I hang out with you
Speaker 2: better at conversations are always amazing. And any opportunity to
Speaker 2: do that and share that and hear from you and
Speaker 2: have this conversation, I would beyond welcome.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot more topics to cover. Thanks for
Speaker 1: coming on today and doing the podcast improv jam with me.
Speaker 2: Ah, thank you for having me my brother. Thank you
Speaker 2: to everyone who's listened as well.
Speaker 4: Have a great one.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to this episode of The Psychology Podcast.
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