1 00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: From Meat Eaters World News headquarters in Bozeman, Montana. This 2 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:19,439 Speaker 1: is Col's Week in Review with Ryan cow Klan. Here's Cal. 3 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: What is happening all you? 4 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:22,760 Speaker 2: Uh? 5 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 1: You know Cal the Wild Cow's we can review fans 6 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: As promised, I have my friend Eric Crawford of Trout 7 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: Unlimited on the on the horn with us to go 8 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: through this incredibly huge, diverse topic of what right now 9 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: is a question a proposal of how and why removal 10 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: of the four Snake lower Snake River dams, uh would 11 00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 1: make sense and and wh and and kind of like 12 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 1: the to how we could get those things out of 13 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: there and account for the things that we talked about 14 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: on the last podcast, which would be we want to 15 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 1: have healthy outgoing salmon and steelhead and healthy incoming salmon 16 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 1: and steelhead, so returning fisheries to a healthier state. We 17 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:27,959 Speaker 1: want to figure out the big question mark of those 18 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: are hydro electric dams. They're creating power. How do we 19 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 1: replace that power? Shipping component which there's a port I 20 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 1: think our furthest Inland port four hundred and sixty five 21 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: miles from the ocean, so you can take an ocean 22 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: going ship all the way to Lewiston, Idaho, four hundred 23 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 1: and sixty five miles river miles inland through this system 24 00:01:55,080 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 1: of locks that would also go away at the four dams. 25 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: So how do you replace the shipping benefits capabilities that 26 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: are currently in place. And then one of the things 27 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 1: that came out of this trip to Lewiston with with 28 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 1: Eric Crawford that I, you know, just didn't quite have 29 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 1: any real understanding of, is this United States government obligation 30 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 1: to the Nez Perce people too with old to uphold 31 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 1: their end of a treaty, a federal agreement document between 32 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 1: the sovereign nation of the Nez person and the United 33 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 1: States Government that says there's going to be salmon in 34 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 1: the river for the people. And one of the amazing 35 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:03,920 Speaker 1: fascinating thing that I learned speaking with Chairman Wheeler of 36 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:10,359 Speaker 1: the Nezbrus tribe is that document the intent of that 37 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 1: document is to be upheld as if it were the 38 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 1: time of the signing of that treaty, which to me, 39 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: I would interpret that to mean that it's not just 40 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:31,080 Speaker 1: salmon in the river, it's wild salmon in the river. 41 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 1: So we're not talking hatchery. Fish is like an add 42 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 1: on thing, a placeholder maybe, but when you're talking about 43 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: that treaty, you're talking about wildfish. So, Eric, what do 44 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 1: you do for Trout Unlimited? 45 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 2: Yeah? 46 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 3: Thanks, Ryan, I am the Snake River campaign director for 47 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 3: Trout Unlimited, so oversea our broader campaign within the region 48 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 3: to remove the four Lower Snake River dams and then 49 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 3: ultimately recover wild salmon a steelhead to the Snake River 50 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 3: basin while restoring a free flowing river in the Lower 51 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 3: Snake Corridor. 52 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:19,160 Speaker 1: And so that the way you look at it is 53 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 1: it is your job to promote the removal of those dams. 54 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. 55 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, that definitely is accurate, with a little bit of 56 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:34,160 Speaker 3: a caveat that we Travel Limited really support a comprehensive solution. 57 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 3: So addressing all those issues that you just brought up, transportation, energy, irrigation, recreation, 58 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 3: none the least upholding, you know, holding the federal government 59 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 3: responsible for their obligations for treaty rights for the tribes 60 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 3: throughout the Columbia basin physically, you know, as we learned 61 00:04:56,279 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 3: last week, how important those fish are to the Nez 62 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 3: Perce tribe. And so all of that wrapped into one 63 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:09,920 Speaker 3: in various aspects, whether it's outreach and engagement with local 64 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 3: interests representing the agricultural sector, the irrigation sector. Not only 65 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 3: our membership within to you are grassroots grasstops, but then 66 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 3: also all the way from local electeds up to congressionals. 67 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:29,920 Speaker 3: So a very broad swath of duties that I helped 68 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 3: direct and oversee and participate in in my role as 69 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 3: director of the campaign. 70 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 1: And yeah, I got a little foggy brain here today, folks. 71 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:44,559 Speaker 1: But if you're fuming already listening to this, I did 72 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 1: forget the irrigation component, which is a huge, huge point 73 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 1: of concern for a lot of folks in the lower 74 00:05:54,680 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: of the Lower Snake River dams. And I say lower 75 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 1: of the Lower because that's really where the significant irrigation 76 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:05,279 Speaker 1: withdrawal comes out of. 77 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 3: Correct, Yeah, that's that's correct, Ryan. It's down to the 78 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:15,600 Speaker 3: Ice Harborpool. There's about sixty thousand irrigated acres of agriculture 79 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 3: down there that there needs to be a solution of 80 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:23,159 Speaker 3: how do you get that water onto those crops in 81 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:25,279 Speaker 3: a different system than what it is today, you know, 82 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 3: a reservoir system to a free flowing river system down there, 83 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 3: So a whole caveat of services that need to be replaced. 84 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:37,280 Speaker 3: And I mean, in reality, the good news is is 85 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 3: that there is a very considered effort by the federal 86 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 3: government now through what is called the Six Sovereigns Agreement 87 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:51,719 Speaker 3: and specifically US government commitments to replace the majority of 88 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 3: those services. So we're seeing that happening currently and so 89 00:06:56,800 --> 00:07:00,159 Speaker 3: hopefully we'll continue to see progress in that aspect. And 90 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:03,799 Speaker 3: really this is the first time and really the history 91 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 3: of the Lower Snake River Dam, so about almost fifty 92 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 3: years you know, plus or minus a couple since the 93 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:13,679 Speaker 3: completion of Lower Granite Dam, which is the upper dam 94 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 3: in the hydro system, that that conversation has really changed 95 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 3: about not just breach and not just about fish, replacement 96 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 3: of services and really tying it all together to put 97 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 3: our best foot forward in the region. 98 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 1: And how has your best foot forward been received so far? 99 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 3: Well, I mean, there definitely are there definitely are folks that, 100 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 3: at least in my conversations, that you know, want to 101 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 3: stick their head in the sand and just hope that 102 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 3: it goes away. You know, this discussion about breach just 103 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 3: goes away, and that we can just maintain the status 104 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 3: quo it as it is. There are others that are 105 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 3: interesting and engaging, cautiously but really those conversations have changed 106 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 3: tenfold since. You know, there was a progression of effort 107 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 3: here within the region, within the country to breach these 108 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 3: four Lower Snake River dams, starting all the way back 109 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 3: in twenty nineteen when Represented Mike Simpson. 110 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 2: Of Idaho had made, you know. 111 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 3: A little bit of a promise committed to restoring wild 112 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:34,840 Speaker 3: sam and steelhead in the basin. That was during a 113 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 3: conference in Boise, Idaho, and that really got the conversation 114 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 3: going that ogs now we really do have the attention 115 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 3: of Congress or at least one Congressman. And then over 116 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:50,319 Speaker 3: the next couple of years you really saw the conversation 117 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 3: start to mature, and then ultimately Representative Simpson released a proposal, 118 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 3: the Northwest Han Transition Proposal, which was the thirty three 119 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 3: billion dollar proposal to move the region away from the hydrosystem, 120 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:14,719 Speaker 3: reaching the four Lower Snake River dams, providing the mechanism 121 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 3: or the idea of funding those replacement services, but also 122 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 3: economic inputs from towns throughout the base and Lewiston here 123 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 3: at the confluence of the Snake and clear Water all 124 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 3: the way down to the Tri Cities and the Pacific 125 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 3: Northwest lab investments and new energy development. It really was 126 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 3: a bold proposal that came out and it kind of 127 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 3: fell flat on its face. It was kind of surprising 128 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 3: that other senators and or representatives in the Northwest didn't 129 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 3: really lob onto. What we saw is that Senator Patty 130 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:55,200 Speaker 3: Murray of Washington, Governor Jay Insley also took a lead 131 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 3: in a leadership role in this discussion and re evaluated 132 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 3: kind of what Representative Simpson had brought out and ultimately 133 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 3: put forth their own recommendations, one acknowledging that the only 134 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 3: real way to recover sam the cel it in the 135 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 3: basin is going to be breached those dams, but we 136 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 3: need to replace those services. Fast forward today, as I noted, 137 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 3: what's referred to as the six sovereigns Agreements, which is 138 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 3: the State of Oregon, State of Washington, the Yakama Nation, 139 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 3: then first Tribe, the Confederate Tribes of the I Matila, 140 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:33,080 Speaker 3: and the Confederate Advans of the Warm Springs all reached 141 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 3: an agreement with the federal government to stay the litigation 142 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 3: and the Lower Snake and worked up a whole bunch 143 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 3: of agreements and commitments again to move this conversation forward 144 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 3: that was supported by the current administration, the Biden administration, 145 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 3: and so that's really where we are today. And we've 146 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 3: seen this really move along in a positive fashion and 147 00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:00,680 Speaker 3: replacing services. With that being said, we are still in 148 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:03,559 Speaker 3: a situation that you know, time is of the essence 149 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:11,559 Speaker 3: these fish, salmon, schnook salmon both spring summer falls, steelhead, 150 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 3: and sake. I just don't have the time. The clock 151 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:16,319 Speaker 3: is ticking. 152 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 2: You know. 153 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 3: All those species are listed under the endangered Species list, 154 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:23,200 Speaker 3: starting all the way back in ninety one with saki 155 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:28,560 Speaker 3: and completing in ninety seven with the listing of steelhead 156 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 3: in the basin, and they remain there today with real 157 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:38,560 Speaker 3: noticeable change or any kind of ability to get them 158 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 3: off the list. Right And as you mentioned in the intro, 159 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 3: you know, this is really about recovering wild salmon, a steelhead. 160 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,960 Speaker 3: Those are the species that are listed. You know, we 161 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 3: can talk about actual production and why it's there and 162 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 3: why it ends up being you know, a placeholder for 163 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 3: those wild stocks, but at the end of the day, 164 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 3: we're really trying to over those wild stocks, you know, 165 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 3: into a into an incredible basin of habitat with huge 166 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:12,440 Speaker 3: loss of wilderness, including the Frank Church and the Selwey 167 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 3: bitter Root, intact habitat. Everything is there waiting for them 168 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:20,679 Speaker 3: to come back. It's just that right now, with the 169 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 3: hydro system as it is, despite all the mitigation efforts 170 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 3: and band aids that have been placed on the hydro system, 171 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 3: we just can't get them, get them recovered. 172 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 1: And so I just want to ask you again, like 173 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 1: when you say that habitat is in place, that upstream 174 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 1: spawning habitat is what you're referring to, as well as 175 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:47,200 Speaker 1: like the ability for the fish to travel because it 176 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 1: is a free flowing river above if you take like 177 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: Dworshack out of it and some old mining impoundment things 178 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:59,679 Speaker 1: like thinking of like the Yankee Fork type of yeah situation, 179 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:07,959 Speaker 1: fishcam freely travel up and downstream once they get above 180 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 1: Lower Granite. 181 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 3: Yeah that's that's yeah, that's correct. And yeah, so lower 182 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 3: granted it's about seventeen miles approximately downriver from the Idaho border, 183 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 3: I know, Washington border. Once they get over Lower Granite 184 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:27,719 Speaker 3: and those fish have already passed, we're just going to 185 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 3: talk about adults. For instance, those fish are going to 186 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 3: pass the four Lower Columbia dams and then get over 187 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 3: the four Lower Snake river dams and then once they're 188 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:40,840 Speaker 3: into that at Idaho habitat, and for that matter, portions 189 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 3: of southeast Washington and northeast Oregon also have large expanses 190 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 3: of available habitat, but Idaho in particular, really right now 191 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 3: it's the gold standard and habitat for cold water fisheries 192 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 3: on the west coast distribution of Pacific salmon. About forty 193 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 3: eight percent of all available cold water habitat in the 194 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:06,559 Speaker 3: range of Pacific salmon in the lower forty eight exists 195 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 3: in the Snake River basin. And even the state of 196 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 3: Idaho acknowledges that, you know, despite some of these impoundments 197 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 3: like door Shaft, about sixty two percent of that habitat 198 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 3: and Idaho is still intact and accessible for these fish. 199 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 1: And that's not really by coincidence. I mean, there's a 200 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: crazy history of all sorts of different mining operations in 201 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 1: these tributaries, which which are would would be the spawning habitat, logging, 202 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 1: grazing in some of the like these high alpine meadows 203 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 1: that you in personal experience, you're walking along and you go, 204 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 1: holy shit, look at the size of that fish. 205 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 2: Yeah. 206 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, And so like there's been a lot of create 207 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 1: changes to grazing patterns along some of those high alpine meadows, 208 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 1: or a switch from one set of livestock to another, 209 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 1: some rehabilitation stream bank, really rehabilitation and heavily logged and 210 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 1: mined areas, changes in those mining and logging practices and cash. 211 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: I think it was like during the Obama administration where 212 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 1: that area was circled on the map as a cold 213 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 1: water reserve in North America. 214 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 3: Right, yeah, I think that that that's accurate, and it's 215 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 3: you know, the highest coldest cold water habitat in the 216 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 3: lower forty A, you know, and that's why we trod 217 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 3: and limit are so adamant about, Hey, this is the 218 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 3: last best place to really restore and recover wild something 219 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 3: on its in the Snake River. And despite all those 220 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 3: you know, extractive and land use practices that has a 221 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 3: historically happened on the landscape, it shows that these fish 222 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 3: are incredibly resilient and at times can be tolerant to 223 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 3: those type of impacts. The one thing that they're not 224 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 3: tolerant and resilient to is the hydro system. But you know, 225 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 3: if we can get there, get them back, you know, 226 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 3: trout unlimited, we we have a very large water and 227 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 3: habitat restoration program across you know, the United States, but 228 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 3: even specifically here in Idaho with a lot of effort 229 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 3: going on in the upper Salmon drainage is specifically restoring 230 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 3: the Yankee Fork, a lot of work with our partners 231 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 3: on the Lem High which is a tributary there to 232 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 3: the Salmon River rate at Salmon, Idaho, all kind of 233 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 3: creating this perfect environment in addition to everything else that's 234 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 3: still wild and exile and intact for when we get 235 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:07,399 Speaker 3: these dams out, and it ends up being a totality 236 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:10,400 Speaker 3: of the life, life's history of a of a salmon. Right, 237 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 3: not only are we you know, trying to restore a 238 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:16,679 Speaker 3: migration corridor, but at the same time we're providing you know, 239 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 3: the habitat for quality, red red building and rearing of 240 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 3: juveniles all the way up through the entire left history. 241 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 3: And so that's what's really important to recognize is that, 242 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 3: you know, this really is the sweets for restoration of 243 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:34,680 Speaker 3: the species. 244 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a pretty unique situation where there's a literal 245 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:43,440 Speaker 1: line on the map where you're like, okay, above here, 246 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: we're as good as things get. 247 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, And I mean it's no different than you know, 248 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 3: a human driving out of the city. Right, It's just 249 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 3: like you're in Boise, Idaho. Both of you and I 250 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 3: have spent a considerable amount of time there, and you 251 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:04,119 Speaker 3: think about the city when you're there, but jeez, you 252 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 3: drive what an hour north or northeast and you're in 253 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:12,120 Speaker 3: some of the wildest country in the lower forty eight. 254 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 3: And that's kind of the analogy with these fish. It's 255 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:17,959 Speaker 3: just like, hey, we can drive out of they can 256 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 3: swim out of the industrialized Columbia and Lower Snake and 257 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:25,880 Speaker 3: get into you know, the best of the best of habitat. 258 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: You got to talk about kind of the beliefs out 259 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:36,199 Speaker 1: there that are part of the narrative to be like 260 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:41,639 Speaker 1: highly skeptical of the efficacy of removing dams, right, And 261 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 1: you know, just today, you know, there was a fellow 262 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 1: rode in talking about Core of Engineers information saying that 263 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: even with the removal of the Lower four Snake River dams, 264 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:02,120 Speaker 1: we could only see an increase of about fourteen percent 265 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 1: of current runs. And current runs are you know, way 266 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 1: below historical historical numbers, which were you know, very very high. 267 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:18,880 Speaker 1: So if that's true or untrue, we should definitely cover 268 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: but Also, I think it gets into the bigger question 269 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,160 Speaker 1: of just like if, k if we go through all 270 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:34,960 Speaker 1: this work and these things are producing clean, affordable energy, 271 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:36,879 Speaker 1: how do we know it's going to be worth it? 272 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:38,160 Speaker 2: Yeah? 273 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 1: And how do we quantify worth it? 274 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:41,920 Speaker 2: Well? 275 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 1: Yeah? 276 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 3: And I mean when you when you try to quantify 277 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,359 Speaker 3: something like this, you have to look at no different 278 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,200 Speaker 3: than what you know, probably the core of engineers is 279 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:55,680 Speaker 3: doing right now. You have to look at all aspects 280 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 3: of what these fish presa provide to the region. This 281 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 3: isn't just about providing fish for fisheries in Idaho. You know, 282 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:09,640 Speaker 3: the entire Columbia system would benefit by renewed, renewed fisheries, 283 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 3: and so you look at the cultural, social, economic, and 284 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 3: ultimately biological values associated with these with these renewed runs. 285 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 3: And so you know, many times we place value in 286 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 3: the form of monetary value, but sometimes things cannot be measured. 287 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 3: I would never be able to articulate the social cultural 288 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 3: value with a dollar figure of what these fish provide 289 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 3: to say, the nez perstribe and its members in the 290 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 3: Upper Basin, or the Yakamas or the warm Springs or 291 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 3: the Yumatillas. I can look simply at some things I 292 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 3: have a friend in Chalice, Idaho and Central Idaho that 293 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:57,959 Speaker 3: historically Chala saw pretty good runs of chinook and then 294 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 3: also steelhead, and their runs have really been cut short lately, 295 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 3: even on hatchery returns, which all these fisheries are based on. 296 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:10,359 Speaker 3: Right now, he owns a sporting good shop has for 297 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:15,200 Speaker 3: twenty years there the bent rod and he greg now 298 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 3: really doesn't carry that much fishing gear relating to salmon 299 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 3: and steelhead. It's all more of outdoor recreation broadly, you know, 300 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 3: hiking and camping and stuff. And so you look at 301 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 3: like little things like that and how that the trickle 302 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:36,640 Speaker 3: economics of what those mean to river communities like Challice 303 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:39,440 Speaker 3: and some of the other ones and riggins, and you 304 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 3: can put a dollar figure on that. There's been a 305 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 3: number of economic studies in relationship to sam and steelhead fisheries, 306 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,400 Speaker 3: specifically shin At fisheries in Idaho, and it's pretty staggering 307 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 3: of what the economic inputs are just in Idaho. The 308 00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:01,159 Speaker 3: value of the electricity, I mean, the reality is the 309 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 3: grid is going to need more energy regardless. Those lower 310 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:09,159 Speaker 3: Snake River dams produce on average about nine hundred and 311 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 3: sixty megawatts of energy is what they contribute. The real 312 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:16,480 Speaker 3: value is on demand, so when it's super hot or 313 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 3: super cold, you know they can produce energy. But at 314 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,159 Speaker 3: the same time, we're faced with the dilemma that we 315 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,639 Speaker 3: need more energy in the Northwest, and so why not 316 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:31,680 Speaker 3: invest in another source outside of the hydra system that 317 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 3: we can utilize and you know, put ourselves better off 318 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 3: into the future while still recovering these fish. And so 319 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 3: it's really hard to place those values on there. 320 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 2: The other part of that. 321 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 3: You know, is well are they going to restore the fish? 322 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,120 Speaker 3: I think, you know, everybody needs to be aware that 323 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 3: the core of engineers has a vested interest. 324 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 2: In these dams. 325 00:22:56,480 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 3: It is very readily apparent know that they don't want to, 326 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 3: i think, admit that they're salmon killers or take credit 327 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 3: for the impacts of the intra system to the cultural 328 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 3: resources of the tribes throughout the region and these salmon populations. 329 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 3: I was at Lower Granted last week with a tour 330 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:23,439 Speaker 3: with the nez Perse and it oftentimes is disturbing how 331 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 3: much misinformation or stretching of the truth and facts actually 332 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 3: is represented by core engineers. Folks multiple other ways to 333 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:37,160 Speaker 3: get that information. Again, the core has a vested interest 334 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:40,160 Speaker 3: in keeping those dams. You can look at the Fish 335 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 3: Passes Center, which is a conglomeration of various entities and 336 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 3: agencies both state and federal, that put out what's called 337 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 3: the Comparative Survival Study. It's an almost thirty year data 338 00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 3: set of SAM and Steelhead survival through the hydro system 339 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 3: and evaluating all the different band aids have been put 340 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 3: forth as mitigation efforts, and everything comes. 341 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:10,920 Speaker 2: Back to the reality. 342 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 3: The hydro system and the dams in the hydro system 343 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 3: are the largest mortality factor of SAM and as Yila 344 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 3: and the Snake River basin. And I think, you know, 345 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 3: it's you got to keep it in the context. You know, 346 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 3: we were just talking about door Shack and some of 347 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:31,160 Speaker 3: the impacts throughout the basin, you know, and right now 348 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 3: the bar is not to recover to historical numbers. 349 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:37,120 Speaker 2: The bar in. 350 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:44,639 Speaker 3: Reality is actually pretty low. You know. Noah, North America 351 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 3: are a National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration could ben the 352 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 3: KLUBBIA Basin Partnership Task Force through the late teens of. 353 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:56,880 Speaker 2: Twenty. 354 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 3: I guess twenty twenty one is when they they finished 355 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:05,119 Speaker 3: up with their final report. And for example, if we 356 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,520 Speaker 3: look at spring summer Chanook and the Snake Over Basin. 357 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 3: You know, right now, we're averaging for wild returns anywhere 358 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 3: from about seven thousand to ninety five hundred in the 359 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 3: entire basin historically, with the available habitat that is there now, 360 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:26,159 Speaker 3: it was estimated that a million spring and summer chinook returned. 361 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:32,959 Speaker 3: But what the Columbia Basin Collaborative, our partnership came up 362 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:37,200 Speaker 3: with is low, medium and high end goals. And even 363 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 3: the high end goal, which is one hundred and fifty 364 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 3: nine thousand native origin or wild spring summer chinook, is 365 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:49,239 Speaker 3: only sixteen percent of that historical value. So we're not 366 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 3: like reaching for the stars. It is based on the 367 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 3: assumption that that is what you would need to have 368 00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 3: healthy and abundant fishery or populations that can support both 369 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 3: tribal and recreational fisheries. So you've really got to keep 370 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:08,879 Speaker 3: it in context, right, Yeah. 371 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 1: Which is hard, right because it's like, you know, like 372 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:17,160 Speaker 1: that email I brought up, it's very much like, well, 373 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:21,159 Speaker 1: only fourteen percent, and then on the other side of 374 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 1: the table, it's like, holy shit, fourteen percent would be huge. 375 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:29,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah, exactly. 376 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's reality, it's a massive project. There's a 377 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 1: ton of unknowns, lots of things have to happen, and 378 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:46,040 Speaker 1: there's four more dams below this area. Yeah right, just 379 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:48,160 Speaker 1: for the returns that I'm talking about. 380 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,360 Speaker 3: Yeah on the Columbia. Yeah that that aren't even part 381 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,120 Speaker 3: of this equation. They're they're not even they're not part 382 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 3: of the discussion whatsoever. They actually contribute an immense amount 383 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 3: of power to the overall Northwest grid and are really important. 384 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 3: The lower Snake dams not as much, and there's a general. 385 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 2: Consensus that that power can replace. 386 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:14,879 Speaker 3: You know, and I and I think you know people, 387 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,920 Speaker 3: people have to go into this wide eyes, wide open. 388 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,119 Speaker 3: I mean, I am not naive to this situation. I 389 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 3: live here on the Polue where all this grain is produced, 390 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 3: you know, that is transported through the hydrosystem. 391 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 2: Although I'm not a customer. 392 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:37,160 Speaker 3: Of BPA, I am not naive to the impacts that 393 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 3: these into a change in electricity production would have. And 394 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,159 Speaker 3: so I yeah, I am not you know, somebody that 395 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 3: is foreign to all these conversations. It's something that I 396 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 3: take very seriously as a community member. Why I represent 397 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:57,360 Speaker 3: try to unlimited but then also looking to recover these 398 00:27:57,359 --> 00:27:59,640 Speaker 3: fish and the benefits that come with them. I think 399 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,359 Speaker 3: that people really have to take a bigger deep dive, 400 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 3: you know, which is really difficult at times to get 401 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:11,439 Speaker 3: the most after it and correct information. Last year, I 402 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:15,879 Speaker 3: guess it was, or it was last year or twenty 403 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 3: twenty two, Noah came out with a paper, position paper 404 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:23,879 Speaker 3: that acknowledges the only way that we're going to recover 405 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:28,959 Speaker 3: these fish. His breach of the four lower Snake River dams. 406 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:34,919 Speaker 3: That is kind of that is based on the wide 407 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:39,600 Speaker 3: amount of scientific data that is out there. It really 408 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 3: puts to bed, you know, the scientific argument that hey, 409 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 3: you know, hey, we need. 410 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 2: To study more. 411 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 3: And I hear that all the time, Well we need 412 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 3: to study this, we need to study that. Hey look 413 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:53,720 Speaker 3: at look at the sea lions down below Bonaville, look 414 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 3: at you know, Caspian turns or the other avian predators 415 00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 3: down on the Lower Columbia's always look at something else, 416 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:02,239 Speaker 3: you know, don't look here at the real problem. Look 417 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 3: at something else. 418 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 2: And try to fix that first. 419 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 3: And we've been doing it for almost fifty years and 420 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 3: it hasn't been successful. 421 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 1: And and those those predator species are growing also, they're 422 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 1: they're benefiting from I mean we saw it firsthand, right, 423 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:25,720 Speaker 1: It's like you create this big turbid pool that a 424 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 1: bunch of disoriented fish gets shot out of a cannon basically, 425 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 1: and the birds and the walleye and the small mouth 426 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 1: pass or you know, lined up, ready, ready for the 427 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 1: food food train. 428 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. 429 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 3: The only reason that those those predators are successful is 430 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 3: because the system is highly modified, you know, to their 431 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 3: favor and to a disadvantage of salmon and steelhead. 432 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 1: So I mean, I still can't get over the fact that, 433 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 1: like we're sitting there in the viewing window at Littwer granted, 434 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 1: and you know there's a thirty and shinook going upstream 435 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 1: with two walleye. 436 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, and as I told you, like that is really 437 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 3: a that is a really recent phenomena five years ago. 438 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 2: You do go down there. 439 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 3: And you'd be hard pressed to see a walleye. And 440 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,560 Speaker 3: so now, I mean as we saw, I mean there 441 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 3: wasn't just two, you know, there were several. As we 442 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 3: sat there and watched that we're trying to make their 443 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 3: way up, you know. And so I mean, yeah, I 444 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 3: mean it's it's a heavily modified system. 445 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,360 Speaker 1: People are just so goofy too, Like I can't wrap 446 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:42,720 Speaker 1: my head around the pike minto situation. I mean, I 447 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:47,240 Speaker 1: don't think we're going to destroy pike mino, which is 448 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 1: a native fish and I swear to God makes great savice. 449 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 1: But we're actively with a reward system suppressing pike mino. 450 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 1: Well you know, there's no limits on small my pass 451 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,719 Speaker 1: or Walleye, but we're not incentivizing anybody to go in 452 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 1: there and and take those fish. It's just, you know, 453 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 1: it's just odd to me. We also got Channel cap 454 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 1: in there, right. 455 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Channel Cat yeah in the mix. So 456 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:22,160 Speaker 3: uh yeah, and as our was it Jim? Was that 457 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 3: that our pike minow? 458 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 1: Yeah? 459 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 2: From Jim from Florida. 460 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 3: You know, as he said, you know he uh you know, 461 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 3: even he saw a scene a different and uh in 462 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 3: catch rates of pike minnow a guy that in retirement 463 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 3: travels from Florida and he say comes up in May? 464 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 2: Is that what he said? May? And through September? 465 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 3: Yeah right, and uh, camp's balilo and grantede just to 466 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 3: take advantage of the pike Minnow reward program. Uh in 467 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 3: his retirement years to stay active. And you know what 468 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 3: you tell us May? Yeah, yeah, got about a thou 469 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:01,479 Speaker 3: I was in pike Mino last year, I think he's 470 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 3: what he told us, and that translates to about ten 471 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 3: thousand dollars in a re award system, and then this year, 472 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 3: you know, he has three hundred. I think pike Mino 473 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 3: is what he told us, And I mean and he 474 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,160 Speaker 3: you know, kind of blames it on you know, Walleye 475 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 3: that you know, there aren't those younger year classes and 476 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 3: so you know, not only are walle impacting salmonds, but 477 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 3: they're also impacting other native species. So you know, none 478 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 3: of the least you know, pike Mino that have that 479 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 3: reward program. 480 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 2: But you know, I. 481 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 3: Often see lamprey in the in the stomach contents earlier 482 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 3: in the season when am seats are out migrating, and yeah, 483 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:44,280 Speaker 3: it's it's kind of pretty crazy situation. 484 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, and boy, the lamprey deals something we got to 485 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 1: get more into because that's just like such a unique deal. 486 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 1: Everybody thinks of, you know, invasive lamprey in the Great Lakes, 487 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 1: but this is a native native fish, right and it's 488 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 1: coming all the way, yeah, coming all you know, it's 489 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 1: spawning in the mountains, going all the way out to 490 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 1: the ocean and returning and it's it's just wild to see. 491 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 1: And that was because of the fat oil content that 492 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 1: was a huge, huge resource for native peoples in that 493 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:31,640 Speaker 1: river system. 494 00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:36,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, and still you know, it's significant, no longer a 495 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 3: significant portion of their diet, but culturally still significant, you know, 496 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:43,600 Speaker 3: particularly the nets erst as as we learned. 497 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:50,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, and their stories about lamp prey are that because 498 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:54,360 Speaker 1: it is so fatty and so oily, it was the 499 00:33:54,480 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 1: preferred prey for predator species, and they would focus on 500 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 1: the lamprey going out and would ignore the salmon smolt 501 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:12,439 Speaker 1: going out, which was a really interesting you know observation 502 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,400 Speaker 1: oral history tidbit that we picked up. I thought that 503 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 1: was really cool because really that's the role, a huge 504 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:24,520 Speaker 1: part of the role other than providing interest and recreation 505 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:30,040 Speaker 1: and revenue of the current hatchery program, right is people 506 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 1: predate on hatchery fish let the wildfish go. 507 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. 508 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 3: So yeah, all fisheries within the snaker of the basin, 509 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:43,640 Speaker 3: with a little bit of an exception, are based off 510 00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 3: of mitigated hatchery returns. 511 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:47,520 Speaker 2: Yes. 512 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 3: Incidentally, wildfish may be encountered and caught but cannot be retained. 513 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:55,799 Speaker 3: All of this is based on hatchery returns and so 514 00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 3: people often get those numbers conflated. You know, we have 515 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:03,920 Speaker 3: some representatives to the west of me that like to 516 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:07,799 Speaker 3: promote you know, historical runs, and some of that is 517 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:12,719 Speaker 3: misinformation from the US Army Corps engineers and how they 518 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 3: represent fish returns and they conflate both hatchery and wild 519 00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:21,120 Speaker 3: stocks together and like to occasionally talk about how we're 520 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:25,799 Speaker 3: seeing historical runs and returns. Well, you know, you ask 521 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,880 Speaker 3: any any angler in the system and they'll tell you 522 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,720 Speaker 3: right away that you know, a one for spring spring chinook, 523 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:36,960 Speaker 3: a one one daily limit on spring chinook is not 524 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:42,239 Speaker 3: a historical return really provides are they any opportunity for anybody. 525 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:45,440 Speaker 3: But with the exception, you know, we were able to 526 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:49,560 Speaker 3: go fall Chaduk fishing, and because of life life history 527 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:53,520 Speaker 3: and survival of faul Chinook and the limited amount of 528 00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:57,400 Speaker 3: habitat now that they actually have available to them, you 529 00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:02,839 Speaker 3: can actually harvest and add intact, intact fish in your 530 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,919 Speaker 3: three fish daily limit as we saw when we were out. 531 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:11,200 Speaker 3: And so that is kind of the exception. No fisheries 532 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,920 Speaker 3: on snake over Saki, all steelhead fisheries are based on 533 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:19,719 Speaker 3: how to returns, and so again it really you know, 534 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:24,120 Speaker 3: you can get super focused and just really think about 535 00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 3: your tiny little window of opportunity if your steelhead angler 536 00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:31,200 Speaker 3: and not really pay attention at these you know, well, 537 00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:33,480 Speaker 3: what are the wild stocks doing? You know, what are 538 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:36,440 Speaker 3: lamprey doing? You know who else benefits from these fish? 539 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:41,200 Speaker 3: And it really is an incredible opportunity and story that 540 00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:42,960 Speaker 3: these fish provide to the region. 541 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:49,320 Speaker 1: Heck yeah, yeah, you know, I'd off the air listeners. 542 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:53,000 Speaker 1: We were talking about an uncle of mine. He's dying 543 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:56,799 Speaker 1: of cancer. And I had just come back from this 544 00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:00,279 Speaker 1: trip with with Eric and we managed to catch had 545 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:08,759 Speaker 1: a huge chinook. I took a couple of flays over 546 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:13,280 Speaker 1: here and and he was able he's you know, lifelong 547 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:17,000 Speaker 1: outdoors mun and was able to show him the picture 548 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 1: and he goes, holy shit. And I was able to 549 00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:27,720 Speaker 1: get a few bites some of that big chinook salmon 550 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:29,879 Speaker 1: down the other night. So that was that was pretty cool. 551 00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,360 Speaker 1: So that yeah, that that fish is still still providing. 552 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:33,719 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. 553 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,680 Speaker 3: And I said something similar when that fish finally got 554 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:40,160 Speaker 3: close to the boat with as large as it. 555 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 1: Was, Yeah yeah, yeah, and four hundred and sixty five 556 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,520 Speaker 1: miles from the ocean, it's just like such an amazing, 557 00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:50,560 Speaker 1: amazing animal. 558 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:53,120 Speaker 3: Right, yeah, yeah, And that's the you know, that's really 559 00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:56,279 Speaker 3: the crazy thing about it. Yeah, we encountered it and 560 00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:59,319 Speaker 3: you're able to catch it at you know, approximately four 561 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:02,799 Speaker 3: sixty five of river miles from the Pacific. But you know, 562 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,560 Speaker 3: it already made one trip out as a small spent 563 00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:09,719 Speaker 3: you know, anywhere three to five years, which judged by 564 00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:12,200 Speaker 3: that the size of that fish it was on that 565 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,600 Speaker 3: you know, cuss of being a five five ocean fish 566 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:19,200 Speaker 3: and five year old fish, and so it you think 567 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 3: about how much time it's spent in the out in 568 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,280 Speaker 3: the ocean and back probably. 569 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:25,800 Speaker 1: Up in southeast Alaska. 570 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,959 Speaker 2: And yeah, and yeah, dodged. 571 00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:35,239 Speaker 1: Quite a few flashers and herring being drifted out there, 572 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:38,759 Speaker 1: as well as some nets and yep, and then all 573 00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:45,520 Speaker 1: the orcas and pinna pads and ah managed to go through. 574 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:51,359 Speaker 3: Eight dams, managed to yeah, wits, managed to go. 575 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,080 Speaker 1: Through all the way out all the way back in so. 576 00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:57,440 Speaker 3: Yep, and then slipped up with old Ryan Callahan. 577 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:06,520 Speaker 1: Yep. Yeah. Yeah, it's wild, it really is. There's a 578 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:11,560 Speaker 1: good conversation going around right now. It seems like people 579 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:17,160 Speaker 1: are by and large a little more willing to kind 580 00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:22,000 Speaker 1: of be at the table, but kind of where where 581 00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:24,960 Speaker 1: are we at is this a like if we had 582 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:27,439 Speaker 1: a call to action today, what would it be. 583 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:33,319 Speaker 3: Yeah, the call to action is really to engage with 584 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:39,520 Speaker 3: congressional your congressional representation, both Housing and Senate. And the 585 00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:43,479 Speaker 3: reason being is that these fish are these dams are 586 00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:48,919 Speaker 3: congressionally authorized. We're congressionally authorized in the nineteen forty Safe 587 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:52,879 Speaker 3: Rivers and Harbors Act and need to be congressionally authorized 588 00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:57,680 Speaker 3: for removal. All this effort really right now that we 589 00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:02,160 Speaker 3: see with the administration and the US government agreement with 590 00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:06,960 Speaker 3: the six sovereigns is in preparation to really get that authorization. 591 00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:12,840 Speaker 3: But congressmen and women need to know that people support 592 00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:16,040 Speaker 3: recovery of salmon and steelhead in the basin. Again, this 593 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:20,920 Speaker 3: isn't just about you know, Idaho fish. These fish provide 594 00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:26,840 Speaker 3: an opportunity throughout the entire Columbia below the snake and 595 00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,640 Speaker 3: out into the ocean fisheries. They're not just an Idaho resource. 596 00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:34,960 Speaker 3: They're you know, really an American resource that shouldn't be 597 00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:38,080 Speaker 3: taken for granted. As you noted that that false chinook 598 00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:41,520 Speaker 3: you know, probably was in in southeast Alaska at one 599 00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:44,400 Speaker 3: point in time, but at the same time those fall chinook, 600 00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:47,640 Speaker 3: they stay fairly close to the coast, and some go south, 601 00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:50,320 Speaker 3: you know, all the way to northern California, and others 602 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:55,399 Speaker 3: go north. Each of these species have different ocean life 603 00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:57,840 Speaker 3: fisheries that take them all the way up into the 604 00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:03,560 Speaker 3: Gulf of Alaska all the way back and providing opportunity everywhere. 605 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,719 Speaker 3: And that really has been going on, you know, really 606 00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:12,200 Speaker 3: since the advent of civilization. I you know, we had 607 00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,680 Speaker 3: an interaction with an individual at Lower Grantede, you know, 608 00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:22,040 Speaker 3: that claimed that this land these fish belonged to somebody else, 609 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,680 Speaker 3: you know, and didn't really understand why the nett Pers 610 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:29,520 Speaker 3: wanted are all back. And I reminded him, as I've 611 00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:33,319 Speaker 3: been taught by Charmy Wheeler the next Perst tribe, that 612 00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:38,279 Speaker 3: there is documented history of the nest person being here 613 00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:42,200 Speaker 3: for sixteen thousand years, so you know, they really were 614 00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:45,719 Speaker 3: the first ones here. And so you know, and that's 615 00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:51,279 Speaker 3: really this real long story of the opportunities that these 616 00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:54,520 Speaker 3: fish provided for the various cultures. 617 00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:58,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and I'm not jumping over that's an 618 00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,920 Speaker 1: amazing fact. You know. The I always want to say 619 00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,200 Speaker 1: Bonner's ferry, but it was Glenn's ferry, right. 620 00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:09,000 Speaker 3: Is Yeah, Yeah, Now you say that I'm not sure 621 00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:12,880 Speaker 3: there is documentation within the snake right here that is 622 00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:14,640 Speaker 3: sixteen thousand years. 623 00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:20,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, sixty five hundred, I believe, which is unreal. Right, 624 00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:23,440 Speaker 1: Like as far as like first peoples on the continent, 625 00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:27,480 Speaker 1: right we always talk like Beringia the land bridge and 626 00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:29,560 Speaker 1: those numbers don't drive. 627 00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:33,320 Speaker 2: Well, no they don't, not with that historical record. 628 00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:38,959 Speaker 1: Yeah, Chairman Wheeler did point out that He's like, that's 629 00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:44,759 Speaker 1: just where they stopped digging right right there. There could 630 00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:46,480 Speaker 1: be a lot more to the story, and I'm sure 631 00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:51,920 Speaker 1: there is. But you know that like food security, food sovereignty, 632 00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:58,600 Speaker 1: that one fish, three of us eight on really just 633 00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:02,080 Speaker 1: one flay. I cooked two flays, but we ate one 634 00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:05,080 Speaker 1: file a piece of a file. At the other night, 635 00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:10,959 Speaker 1: Tyler Emmett and read more, they both got a couple 636 00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:15,640 Speaker 1: of flays a piece. Jason producer Jason Rari got a 637 00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:19,959 Speaker 1: couple of flays. I have more in the freezer right now. 638 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:25,120 Speaker 1: Like one fish provides a lot, and I didn't you know, 639 00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:27,800 Speaker 1: I didn't make stock out of the bones or anything 640 00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:30,680 Speaker 1: like that. We scraped all the burger off, but there 641 00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:33,360 Speaker 1: still was more to be done with with that fish 642 00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:35,319 Speaker 1: if you wanted to do it. So, I mean, it's 643 00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:38,560 Speaker 1: it's a lot of return for one of those fish, 644 00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:41,480 Speaker 1: and I think about that a lot. You know, it's 645 00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:44,919 Speaker 1: especially when they're in numbers. You know, we always used 646 00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:48,400 Speaker 1: to joke in the guiding days when we'd have people 647 00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:49,919 Speaker 1: be like, yeah, I just want to learn to fly 648 00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:53,680 Speaker 1: cast well enough to catch fish in Alaska, and we'd 649 00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:57,240 Speaker 1: be like, well, you're there, because the thing, the dirty 650 00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:01,560 Speaker 1: secret about Alaska is there's so many fish you don't 651 00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:05,279 Speaker 1: need to be great at fishing. Yeah, yeah, And so 652 00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:11,960 Speaker 1: providing that like food opportunity in these rivers that are accessible, 653 00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:15,439 Speaker 1: there's so much public land right down to the river's edge, 654 00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:24,120 Speaker 1: the river is public. You're providing people with some real independence, 655 00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:28,440 Speaker 1: way life type independence if we can get these returns 656 00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:30,520 Speaker 1: back high enough, right. 657 00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:36,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, and even right now, Ryan, Really it's people kind 658 00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:40,520 Speaker 3: of misunderstand this whole what we're fishing on. You know, 659 00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:43,439 Speaker 3: I tried to articulate it earlier, but you know, these 660 00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:47,880 Speaker 3: are mitigated hattery returns, mitigated for the impacts of the 661 00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:52,359 Speaker 3: lower snake to produce opportunity. That's what hatchery fisher here 662 00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:59,040 Speaker 3: for is opportunity. And even in low run years, you know, 663 00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:04,520 Speaker 3: these are so heavily regulated and managed that when there 664 00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:08,560 Speaker 3: are opportunities for seasons, I highly encourage people to get 665 00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:11,200 Speaker 3: out there and fish for these hatchery stock. 666 00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:12,640 Speaker 2: One. 667 00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:17,760 Speaker 3: They provide incredible table fair, you know, and as we talked, 668 00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:20,600 Speaker 3: I mean you could live off sam in the entire year, 669 00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:24,360 Speaker 3: competitive on you know, these runs and the cycle of runs, 670 00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:28,879 Speaker 3: and they are incredible table fair. And so this isn't 671 00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:32,200 Speaker 3: about like, oh, let's just let all those close down 672 00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:35,440 Speaker 3: the fisheries and that'll help them recover. Well that's not 673 00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:40,480 Speaker 3: the case, not the case at all. Those fish are 674 00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:45,880 Speaker 3: there mandatory mitigation from Congress of all people to the 675 00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:49,920 Speaker 3: Northwest Power apt to provide opportunity and take advantage of 676 00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:51,480 Speaker 3: that opportunity when it's available. 677 00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:58,360 Speaker 1: It's so crazy too, because it's so highly hands on manipulated, 678 00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:07,120 Speaker 1: Like the effort involved beyond the fish doing what fish 679 00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:12,880 Speaker 1: do is pretty insane. Like the fish ladder system, the 680 00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:20,600 Speaker 1: willingness to truck fish pipefish into a truck truck fish 681 00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:27,560 Speaker 1: above below dams. It is a hands on. They're damn 682 00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:31,640 Speaker 1: near close enough to have like a barcode on each 683 00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:32,800 Speaker 1: fish that you could scam. 684 00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:37,080 Speaker 3: Well, I mean they almost literally have a barcode on 685 00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:40,120 Speaker 3: each fish in the form of either code or buyer 686 00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:44,440 Speaker 3: tag from hatchery fish, and another portion of wild and 687 00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:47,480 Speaker 3: hatchery fish have passive integrated tags. And that's why we 688 00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:53,080 Speaker 3: you know, your point, so heavily managed. It is insane 689 00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:58,440 Speaker 3: to know how well managers fisheries managers throughout the basin 690 00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:04,239 Speaker 3: this basin particular, can predict run numbers, can update run 691 00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:09,000 Speaker 3: numbers through the course of the system. Never mind, here 692 00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:12,920 Speaker 3: in Idaho they do genetic stock indexing on all wildsown 693 00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:19,600 Speaker 3: onits so spring, summer, schnook, and the steelhead stocks that 694 00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:24,200 Speaker 3: they can trace these individuals back to a specific drainage 695 00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:28,239 Speaker 3: because of historical genetic data that they have. The same 696 00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:34,600 Speaker 3: thing occurs tracing back individuals to hatchery parentage through fin 697 00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:40,160 Speaker 3: clips and genetics. And that's the thing, I mean, this 698 00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:45,399 Speaker 3: is what we've come to to manage this population is technology, 699 00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:51,759 Speaker 3: genetics and band aids. And we know enough about the system, 700 00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:55,000 Speaker 3: We know enough about the mortality factors to know what 701 00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:58,320 Speaker 3: direction we need to go, and that really. 702 00:47:58,120 --> 00:47:59,400 Speaker 2: Is the removal of those fish. 703 00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:02,680 Speaker 3: But in the meantime, you know, yep, take advantage of 704 00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:07,880 Speaker 3: the opportunities as they exist. I mean, you know, the 705 00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:10,920 Speaker 3: last Sunday, we were you know, out there with shoot 706 00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:16,479 Speaker 3: one hundred plus other other friends, right, and you really 707 00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:20,480 Speaker 3: saw what what these fish mean to some of these communities. 708 00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:24,359 Speaker 1: Oh for sure. And you know that's where we talk 709 00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:29,160 Speaker 1: about there's going to be a massive cost associated with 710 00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:37,000 Speaker 1: everything if we're transitioning away from hydro power to replace 711 00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:45,120 Speaker 1: it with small scale nuclear reactors, wind solar. Big cost 712 00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:50,600 Speaker 1: on a lot of levels involved with that. Beefing up 713 00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:58,600 Speaker 1: rail or trucking to compensate for the shipping of goods 714 00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:04,759 Speaker 1: on barges. A lot of costs associated with that. The irrigation, 715 00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:08,880 Speaker 1: what that's going to look like. Are there going to 716 00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:17,680 Speaker 1: be new wells pumps, you know, aqua bypass projects. Lots 717 00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:21,760 Speaker 1: of cost associated with that. But one of the things 718 00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:24,839 Speaker 1: that is like amazing to me and truly intriguing about 719 00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:27,880 Speaker 1: the story is the tribe then Espers. They get a 720 00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:33,600 Speaker 1: lot of money to run these hatcheries, and they're the 721 00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:36,279 Speaker 1: first ones in line saying like, yeah, it'd be great 722 00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:37,239 Speaker 1: to shut these things down. 723 00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:41,720 Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, I mean they're they're dedicated to the recovery, right, 724 00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:48,200 Speaker 3: And just to backup about the cost, you know, I 725 00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:51,480 Speaker 3: think the listeners would be naive to think that this 726 00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:55,240 Speaker 3: cost there is zero cost right now as a system 727 00:49:55,320 --> 00:50:00,520 Speaker 3: is operated. The systems, you know, incredibly expensive to run, 728 00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:05,839 Speaker 3: you know, incredible upfront investments in building these dams and 729 00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:11,480 Speaker 3: continue operation and maintenance of these dams. It's estimated that 730 00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:16,400 Speaker 3: twenty four billion dollars has been put forth in various 731 00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:21,839 Speaker 3: mitigation efforts because of these dams. A full third of 732 00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:28,080 Speaker 3: rate payers bills go towards mitigation efforts, and so really 733 00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:29,840 Speaker 3: at the end of the day, it comes back to 734 00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:34,239 Speaker 3: reimagining how we spend this money. Can we transition what 735 00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:38,360 Speaker 3: these expenses are today to something different in the future, 736 00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:41,200 Speaker 3: And I think the answer is yes, yes we can 737 00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:45,920 Speaker 3: while still benefiting from recovered population of sam in the 738 00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:46,479 Speaker 3: seal head. 739 00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:49,120 Speaker 1: Pretty cool. I think, you know, one of the largest 740 00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:54,400 Speaker 1: hurdles here is just the not knowing what it really 741 00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:59,960 Speaker 1: looked like, right Like, there's a lot of little speak 742 00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:01,799 Speaker 1: with a bunch of people that we did in all 743 00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:05,279 Speaker 1: the communities and conversations that I've had outside of that, 744 00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:07,960 Speaker 1: you know, you get all these like oh yeah, but 745 00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:14,560 Speaker 1: what if and it's not like a real firm this 746 00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:16,760 Speaker 1: is what I'm hanging my hat on type of statement. 747 00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:20,719 Speaker 1: I think it's just really a little placeholder to just 748 00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:23,200 Speaker 1: kind of be like, well, how many fish are we 749 00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:27,600 Speaker 1: talking about? Because you know, if it was like if 750 00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:30,000 Speaker 1: there was a way to just like properly equate it 751 00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:34,680 Speaker 1: and be like, okay, historical looked like this in this system, 752 00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:36,760 Speaker 1: that fishing hole that you go to all the time 753 00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:40,440 Speaker 1: would look like this from time to time, right, or 754 00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:43,200 Speaker 1: that trip up to Alaska or that scene out of 755 00:51:43,239 --> 00:51:48,440 Speaker 1: the National Parks documentary or whatever, like, this is what 756 00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:51,000 Speaker 1: it would look like at certain times of the year. 757 00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:55,680 Speaker 1: People would you know, if you could guarantee that, like, 758 00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:58,000 Speaker 1: people would be like, oh, now, I get it type 759 00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:00,239 Speaker 1: of thing. But you know, we're just so far removed 760 00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:02,520 Speaker 1: from that in that system. 761 00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:03,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. 762 00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:07,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, And you know, as we you know, previously talked, 763 00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:10,880 Speaker 3: I mean, there's no guarantees of mother nature. It doesn't 764 00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:13,480 Speaker 3: it doesn't matter what species you're talking about. There's just 765 00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:19,080 Speaker 3: no guarantees. Yeah, in this equation. The one guarantee that 766 00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:22,560 Speaker 3: is out there is that if you do remove those dams, 767 00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:27,440 Speaker 3: replacing all the services associated with it, you have removed 768 00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:33,320 Speaker 3: that mortality factor that is guaranteed. Right how mother nature reacts, 769 00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:39,920 Speaker 3: We have you know, somewhat of a historical reference now 770 00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:44,040 Speaker 3: with the removal the Elwah Dam over on the Olympic Peninsula, 771 00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:47,839 Speaker 3: the current removal of the Klimate dams in northern California 772 00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:52,480 Speaker 3: and southern Oregon, that'll show us and are continually showing 773 00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:54,680 Speaker 3: us that, boy, you get out of the way of 774 00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:59,040 Speaker 3: these salmon the steelhead and they will rebound. The river 775 00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:04,120 Speaker 3: will will cleanse itself and recover itself in due time, 776 00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:08,480 Speaker 3: the ecosystem will heal itself and be as robust as 777 00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:11,640 Speaker 3: it was once was before man got in the way. 778 00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:16,400 Speaker 3: And so we do have those track records in those examples, 779 00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:21,000 Speaker 3: even here on the West coast, that that will prove that, 780 00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:23,440 Speaker 3: you know, there is a lot of opportunity here in 781 00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:23,840 Speaker 3: the Snake. 782 00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:28,680 Speaker 1: And so one more time for us, Eric, if folks 783 00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:32,239 Speaker 1: want to learn more, do some of their own research. 784 00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:34,879 Speaker 1: Read up on you know, kind of the high level 785 00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:37,960 Speaker 1: things that we hit on today, like where's the best 786 00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:38,560 Speaker 1: place to go? 787 00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:41,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, so we try to limit it. Of course, have 788 00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:44,520 Speaker 3: a sneaker of a campaign landing page. It's to you 789 00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:49,000 Speaker 3: dot org for slash Lower Snake. I'd encourage you also 790 00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:55,160 Speaker 3: to look at the Columbia Basin Partnership Paskforce final Phase 791 00:53:55,160 --> 00:53:59,000 Speaker 3: two report that really lines out a lot of this 792 00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:06,320 Speaker 3: conversation lines out the quantitative goals for various fish stocks 793 00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:10,200 Speaker 3: throughout the Columbia Basin. You know, do your own research, 794 00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:12,440 Speaker 3: you know, don't just take take. 795 00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:15,879 Speaker 2: My word for it. I encourage everybody to come to their. 796 00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:19,319 Speaker 3: Own conclusion, you know, with with or write about right 797 00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:23,360 Speaker 3: amount of data and information from both sides of it. Again, 798 00:54:23,719 --> 00:54:27,080 Speaker 3: I live here, uh, you know, I am ground zero 799 00:54:27,239 --> 00:54:32,440 Speaker 3: for this conversation. And and don't take it lightly, you know. Yeah, 800 00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:34,720 Speaker 3: I'm an avid angler. I work for Drod un Limited. 801 00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:38,560 Speaker 3: We're all about recovering wild wild sam in the Steelhead. 802 00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:42,799 Speaker 3: And but at the same time, I walk into this conversation, 803 00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:46,080 Speaker 3: in every conversation with my eyes wide open and know 804 00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:50,080 Speaker 3: and listen to what somebody sitting across the table is 805 00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:54,640 Speaker 3: telling me and how it may impact their livelihood, may 806 00:54:54,719 --> 00:54:58,040 Speaker 3: impact their family member or friend. They know, at the 807 00:54:58,120 --> 00:55:00,160 Speaker 3: end of the day, Ryan, this is you know, know, 808 00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:05,680 Speaker 3: we're all in this together. It's not it's not us 809 00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:08,520 Speaker 3: as them's it's we, you know. And that's kind of 810 00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:11,960 Speaker 3: what I remind myself we in the region. I have 811 00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:15,799 Speaker 3: to come to this together and be respectful in those 812 00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:19,759 Speaker 3: conversations and and really move forward with the remedy. The 813 00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:24,080 Speaker 3: remedy is not behind us. We cannot continue to rely 814 00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:27,080 Speaker 3: on mitigation efforts and band aids for the impact of 815 00:55:27,160 --> 00:55:30,880 Speaker 3: the system. We've got to look to the future for 816 00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:31,840 Speaker 3: better Northwest. 817 00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:35,680 Speaker 1: Heck. Yeah, well, thanks a much for coming on. I 818 00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:38,839 Speaker 1: know you'll you'll keep us up updated as new things 819 00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:44,920 Speaker 1: pop up. Still still a pretty long runway. 820 00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:47,839 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, very long, very low. 821 00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:53,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's a great conversation and hopefully folks know 822 00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:56,840 Speaker 1: a little bit more about some of the folks that 823 00:55:56,880 --> 00:56:01,240 Speaker 1: are at the table and the interests involved. At top 824 00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:05,000 Speaker 1: of that, will have a col in the Field episode 825 00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:08,560 Speaker 1: coming out on YouTube where you get to see some 826 00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:11,400 Speaker 1: of this firsthand and we've got some great access. And 827 00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:17,640 Speaker 1: again big big thanks to uh everybody there in the 828 00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:20,839 Speaker 1: in the Lower Snake System and the Nest Brust Tribe 829 00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:25,200 Speaker 1: and Trout Unlimited for letting us run around check stuff out. 830 00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:30,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks for coming in, uh you know, uh experiencing 831 00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:32,120 Speaker 3: it anytime. 832 00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:34,480 Speaker 1: Uh, that's all we got for you, guys. Thank you 833 00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:37,640 Speaker 1: so much for listening. Remember to write in to ask 834 00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:40,640 Speaker 1: Cal that's a s k C a L. That's Askcal 835 00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:43,520 Speaker 1: at themeeater dot com and let me know what's going 836 00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:46,040 Speaker 1: on in your neck of the woods, and definitely let 837 00:56:46,120 --> 00:56:50,160 Speaker 1: me know what questions you have on this subject. We're 838 00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:53,320 Speaker 1: going to get into it as needed and again and again, 839 00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:56,759 Speaker 1: I promise, because it's a fascinating one. If you have 840 00:56:57,440 --> 00:57:01,719 Speaker 1: specific questions for Eric Craft, let me know. We can 841 00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:03,960 Speaker 1: always get him back on or we can compile those 842 00:57:04,040 --> 00:57:06,360 Speaker 1: and and answer him on the on the podcast to 843 00:57:07,040 --> 00:57:08,600 Speaker 1: thanks again, We'll talk to you next week. 844 00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:13,840 Speaker 3: M hmmmmmm mm hm 845 00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:22,760 Speaker 2: Hm