1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,680 Speaker 1: Topics featured in this episode may be disturbing to some listeners. 2 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: Please take care while listening. 3 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 2: It's a deep, dark secret, and fortunately oftentimes we're able 4 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:18,919 Speaker 2: to find content and actually talk with the suspect and 5 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:20,079 Speaker 2: get an admission. 6 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was mere. 7 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:41,920 Speaker 1: I'm Andrea Gunning. This is Betrayal, Episode five, Beyond Wildest Imagination. 8 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 1: We ended up staying in Utah for more than a week. 9 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 1: I'm not complaining. It's a beautiful place to wake up 10 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 1: and start work every day. Another woman from the Salt 11 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: Lake City area had reached out to us and we 12 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: wanted to meet her. Mandy had listened to Jennifer Faceon's 13 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: story in season one. 14 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 4: She wrote, the same time Jennifer was going through her trauma, 15 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 4: I was going through mine. He was my. 16 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 1: Fairy tale, the love of my life, and I was blindsided. 17 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:17,400 Speaker 1: To say the least, I lost everything. Hearing Jen's story 18 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:20,480 Speaker 1: helped me not feel so alone and gave me more strength. 19 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:25,279 Speaker 1: I can't say enough thank you. So we invited Mandy 20 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:28,040 Speaker 1: to our airbnb to meet Ashley. When you're in a 21 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: small club that no one wants to belong to, it's 22 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 1: comforting to meet someone else who's been through it. 23 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:35,959 Speaker 4: Here's Mandy speaking with Ashley. 24 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 5: What was it about listening to her story that, Like, 25 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 5: was it just the whole betrayal, Like just the fact 26 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 5: that you just knew nothing about the person that you 27 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 5: were supposed to know everything about. 28 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 6: Yeah, I think that's what drew me to it was 29 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 6: that it was like that betrayal. But what really got 30 00:01:54,280 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 6: me and what made me even write in was Spencer 31 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 6: sounded like my husband. 32 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 4: Oh my gosh. 33 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 1: In season one of Betrayal, Jennifer Fason told the story 34 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 1: of a fairy tale marriage to her college sweetheart, Spencer Heron. 35 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: He appeared to be a picture perfect husband and caring 36 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:18,519 Speaker 1: high school teacher. When he was arrested, Jennifer was shocked 37 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:21,359 Speaker 1: to learn the reality was her husband had been sexually 38 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 1: assaulting one of his students and conducting dozens of affairs 39 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:28,360 Speaker 1: during their marriage. His excuses and lack of accountability made 40 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 1: Jennifer realize her husband was a complete stranger. 41 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 6: And so then I felt like I connected even more 42 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 6: with Jen What about you? 43 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 4: The same, the exact same, the exact same. 44 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:43,800 Speaker 5: Really, Yeah, listening to Spencer talk, it's just it's infuriating, 45 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 5: And I felt the exact same way. 46 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 6: I feel like, too, there's going to be some shit 47 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 6: ads that believe him because he is so believable. And 48 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 6: then I felt like that was my husband for the 49 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 6: last fourteen years. 50 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 5: The things that he would say really since that things 51 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 5: were happening, because there was things happening before that I 52 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 5: didn't understand, and explanations that he would give me. 53 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:11,640 Speaker 4: I would be like, Okay, yeah, that makes sense. 54 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 5: Totally makes sense that we're losing the house and you 55 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:16,239 Speaker 5: did this and you didn't talk to me about it. 56 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 1: Since Ashley and Mandy were both emboldened to share their 57 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:22,640 Speaker 1: own stories after Jen shared hers, we gave Jenna. 58 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 7: Call I have you on speaker because you're with Ashley 59 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 7: and Andy, and Mandy has a very similar story to Ashley, 60 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 7: but they both as you know, Ashley wrote into the 61 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 7: show and so did Mandy. 62 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 4: It's how we found her. 63 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 8: Oh wow, thanks you guys. 64 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 5: Hi, it is so nice to talk to you. 65 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 9: You guys too, And I'm really really sorry about what 66 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 9: you have gone through. 67 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 4: You're sweet. 68 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 7: Jen. 69 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, we're sorry too, girl. 70 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 6: I'm sorry that you went through it, but I'm grateful 71 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 6: that you shared your story with us. 72 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 10: Well. 73 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 9: I was just you know, looking for anybody who had 74 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 9: been in some sort of sitution situation that could relate. 75 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 9: I mean, they're not all the same, but you do 76 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 9: really feel alone out there and wonder, you know, does 77 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 9: anyone else go through this. 78 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 4: I'm so grateful for you sharing your hardship. 79 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 8: Thank you. I wish I was there with you. 80 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 4: Guys, I wish though too. We love you John. 81 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 1: As bad as it was, Ashley had a little time, 82 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 1: a few hours to process what her husband had done. 83 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 4: Mandy had none at all. 84 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:36,160 Speaker 5: I met Michael through a mutual friend I worked with. 85 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:40,599 Speaker 5: We started talking on Facebook one day and that's how 86 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:44,479 Speaker 5: we started dating. And he was the absolute love of 87 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 5: my life. He was the sweetest guy ever. We started 88 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 5: dating exclusively at the end of twenty twelve, and then 89 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:53,160 Speaker 5: we got married in twenty fourteen. 90 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:56,040 Speaker 4: It's great. Our marriage was great. I loved it. 91 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:58,919 Speaker 1: Mandy had shared with me that Michael and his father 92 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 1: were in business together but had a falling out in 93 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 1: twenty fifteen. It was an acrimonious split that left Michael 94 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:07,040 Speaker 1: feeling angry and underappreciated. 95 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 5: His dad took away the whole business, like went behind 96 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 5: his back. It was a really low blow and that 97 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 5: really affected Mike. That when I got pregnant with Sophie. 98 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,039 Speaker 5: He was like, we'll be fine, I'll find another job. 99 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 5: He was always into like programming and stuff like that, 100 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:29,719 Speaker 5: so he decided that he wanted to do three D 101 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 5: design stuff. 102 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:35,160 Speaker 4: He was down in that basement all the freaking time. 103 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 1: Mike spent so much time alone in the basement that 104 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 1: Mandy thought something nefarious was going on. 105 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:44,919 Speaker 4: Maybe he was having an online affair. When he would leave. 106 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 5: I would go and look at the computer and at 107 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 5: the history, and there would be like a regular porn site, 108 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 5: and I was like, whatever, I don't care about that. 109 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:54,159 Speaker 5: But it wasn't like excessive, you know. 110 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 1: When their daughter, Sophie was born, Michael re engaged with 111 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: the family for a while, then checked out again. 112 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 4: He just wasn't there. He was just never there. 113 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:07,599 Speaker 5: Even my mom was like, something's going on with him. 114 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 5: He's being so weird, and I'm like, I know, I 115 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 5: don't know what it is. Every time I bring it 116 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 5: up or try to talk to me, gaslights me. I 117 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:18,599 Speaker 5: don't know what to do. Then all this other stuff 118 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 5: was happening, like one one of the cars got repossessed, 119 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:24,599 Speaker 5: and then he short sold the house, and then he 120 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 5: couldn't afford to pay the payments of the short cell, 121 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 5: so we had to go move in with his mom. 122 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 4: It was just like all boom boom, boom boom. 123 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:37,839 Speaker 1: They lost everything in rapid succession. Mandy didn't have close 124 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: family support. It was scary. 125 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 4: She wrote it out. 126 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:43,920 Speaker 1: For a while, and eventually Michael found a job at 127 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 1: a serial factory. Mandy made extra money working at a 128 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: local paper company. Michael's mother watched Sophie while they were 129 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: at work. 130 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 5: It was seeming like life was kind of getting a 131 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:58,039 Speaker 5: little bit more normal again. He seemed to be pulling 132 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:01,799 Speaker 5: himself out even more. He was actually going and doing 133 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 5: things with us, and so I was really hopeful. 134 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 1: During that period of optimism, Mandy was confronted with a 135 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 1: shocking dose of reality. 136 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 5: I worked four to midnight. I had just gotten to 137 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 5: work and my phone rang. I was like, well, I'm 138 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 5: not work. 139 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 4: I can't answer the phone, you know. So I ignored it, 140 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 4: and then they called. 141 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 5: Right back, and then they called right back again, and 142 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 5: then they called right back again, and I was like, okay, 143 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 5: obviously this is an emergency, you know. So I go 144 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 5: announswer my phone and it's this guy and he says 145 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 5: that he's a detective and that they're at my mother 146 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 5: in law's house. 147 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 1: Who incidentally, one week before the detective repeatedly called Mandy 148 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: at work. Two police officers were canvassing her neighborhood. 149 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 5: One day, we were about ready to take Sophie to 150 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 5: the park and this random older Toyota Corolla car pulls 151 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:57,559 Speaker 5: up with these two people in it. 152 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 4: They get out and I mean they parked like right 153 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 4: in front of his mom's house and they see us 154 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 4: and they're like hi. 155 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 5: They're super friendly and they're like how are you guys, 156 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 5: and really good and they're like. 157 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 8: Do you live here? And we're like, oh, yeah, we 158 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 8: live here. 159 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 5: And they're like, oh well, we're just with the police 160 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 5: department and we're looking for this guy and they show 161 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 5: a picture of this like hispanic guy. I'm all, no, 162 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 5: I haven't seen anybody. And he's like, so, who all 163 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 5: lives here? And we all introduce ourselves and then he's 164 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 5: like your husband's here and I'm like yeah. 165 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 4: He's like look, can you go get them? 166 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 5: And I was like sure, And so they introduced themselves 167 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 5: and ask him the same question, show him the picture 168 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:38,199 Speaker 5: and he's like, no, I haven't seen anything, and. 169 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 4: They're like, okay, thanks. 170 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 1: Now a detective said he needed to come and pick 171 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 1: her up at work. 172 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 4: I was like, oh my god. And so I'm like 173 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 4: did I do something? Like I'm all like freaking out, 174 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 4: like what did I have like this unpaid ticket? And 175 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 4: they need to come to my. 176 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 5: House like I was all these thoughts were and they like, 177 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 5: just give us where you're at and we're gonna come 178 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 5: right now. I saw FBI on their vests and stuff, 179 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 5: and I was, Okay, this isn't anything that I could 180 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 5: have done, Like I know, I haven't you know what 181 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 5: I mean, Like that's crazy. He's like, Mandy, I'm not 182 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 5: gonna sugarcoat anything. I'm just gonna tell you we're serving 183 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 5: the search warm because your husband's been looking at downloading 184 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 5: childhorn on the dark web for the past two years. 185 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:22,959 Speaker 5: I just started screaming. I remember, just dropped him my 186 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 5: knees and started screaming. 187 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: Nothing made sense, and yet it suddenly all made sense. 188 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:33,199 Speaker 1: The long hours in the basement, his complete withdrawal from 189 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: the family. 190 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 11: Was hard to hear that. It was so embarrassed. I 191 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:45,119 Speaker 11: was so ashamed. I was so frustrated. I felt so stupid. 192 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 5: I mean, life was already not like it was before, 193 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 5: but everything changed from there. 194 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 4: I still struggle with it. 195 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 12: I gave him all of me. I gave him everything. 196 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 12: I never trusted another man like that, and then to 197 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 12: do that, to do that like that is to me. 198 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 4: The worst thing you could do. Those are children. I 199 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 4: can't even trust you with our child. 200 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: Her house resembled a scene out of Law and Order, 201 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 1: except it was her real life and Olivia Benson wasn't 202 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:23,839 Speaker 1: making an appearance. 203 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:26,719 Speaker 4: As soon as we pulled down his street. 204 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 5: The big huge Rvy, it's like bigger than an Arvy, 205 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 5: just blocking the whole driveway. 206 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:35,599 Speaker 4: They're pulling out computers. 207 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 1: The two police officers who were there the week prior, 208 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 1: supposedly looking for a drug dealer. 209 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 5: That guy was just a big guy. They just were 210 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 5: coming there to make sure Michael was there so they 211 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 5: didn't have to send in all these people and him 212 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 5: not be there. 213 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:04,319 Speaker 4: Former Utah US attorney John Hubert mister. 214 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 13: Gibbs, who was part of an international ring is stretch 215 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 13: from Korea through the United States and beyond using bitcoin 216 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 13: and anonymizing efforts to hide what they were doing on 217 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 13: the dark web and through hard work, detective work, cyber 218 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 13: sleuthing they were able to find mister Gibbs and an 219 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:26,720 Speaker 13: effect a search worn on his home in Utah and 220 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 13: confirmed that he was part of this conspiracy. 221 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 1: This website was one of the largest and most vile 222 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 1: child sexual assault websites in the world. Among those arrested 223 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 1: was a US Border Patrol agent, former Homeland Security agent, 224 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 1: and assistant high school principal. 225 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 5: They looked to everything, every nook and connie of that house, 226 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:51,559 Speaker 5: and I had to just stand there and watch him 227 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 5: do it. The detective was asking me all sorts of 228 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 5: questions too, while I'm standing there. 229 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:00,680 Speaker 4: Was he downstairs? There a lot? 230 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 5: Did he hide out a lot from you? Is there 231 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 5: any other computers? Any other devices? They took every device 232 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 5: except my phone. They didn't even ask to see my 233 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:11,839 Speaker 5: phone or anything. They took everything else. 234 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:17,079 Speaker 1: Michael's arrest shattered Mandy. She simply could not bear it. 235 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 1: Their small family that she loved so much went up 236 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 1: in flames. Mandy and her daughter continue to live with 237 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 1: Michael's mother, but Mandy struggled. 238 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 4: The first month. I couldn't even eat because I was 239 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:31,439 Speaker 4: just sick. 240 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 5: I was sick that that man could have done those things. 241 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 12: I just completely lost myself. I don't even want to 242 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 12: make excuses. I'm so ashamed of the way that I 243 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:47,679 Speaker 12: handled it. I could have been stronger. 244 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 4: She turned to an old dependency to ease the pain. 245 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 4: I was just so angry. 246 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 5: I wanted to be angry for a really long time, 247 00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 5: and alcohol just fueled that anger. 248 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 4: I feel like it was good to go through that 249 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 4: because I. 250 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 5: Don't want to carry that anger around anymore. That's exhausting. 251 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 5: I went to treatment. I was in treatment for a whole. 252 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 1: Year while Mandy's got help for substance abuse. Michael's case 253 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 1: moved forward. Eventually he was granted release on unsecured bond, 254 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 1: no bail. His release meant he would move back to 255 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 1: his mother's house, and that Mandy and her daughter needed 256 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 1: to find somewhere else to live. A close friend, the 257 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 1: father of Mandy's other daughter, offered them a place to stay, 258 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:35,679 Speaker 1: and they've become much closer through this awful experience. 259 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 4: I was on Sophie's birthday. 260 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 5: Actually it's like one in the morning, and he was 261 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:43,840 Speaker 5: trying to get me to like let him see Sophie, 262 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:47,440 Speaker 5: and I was like absolutely not, like no, and all 263 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 5: of a sudden, Michael just walks in the back door 264 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 5: he's totally pasted, and he's like. 265 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 8: You need to talk to me right now, blah blah blah. 266 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 5: So his roommate picks up the phone calls the police. 267 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:01,440 Speaker 5: He had shoved me too because I talk to him, 268 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 5: and so at that point at least come and they 269 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:07,320 Speaker 5: took him back to Joe. He still got released again 270 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 5: after that, but that was on house arrest. 271 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 4: Michael tried to convince Mandy that the content he downloaded 272 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 4: wasn't that bad. He never tells me the truth. 273 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 5: It's always it wasn't even that much, or it was 274 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 5: I didn't even look at it. 275 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 4: It wasn't even stuff that I looked at. What else. 276 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 5: They weren't like little kid little kids. It's like, you know, 277 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 5: like younger girls. It was only a couple things in there. 278 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 5: A lot of the other stuff was like adult stuff. 279 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 10: You know. 280 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 5: It was because I was taking so much adderall and 281 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 5: that made me just like really compulsive and want to 282 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 5: download all this stuff. 283 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 13: Mister Gibbs had one hundred videos of some of the 284 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 13: most deviant conduct that you could imagine and hopefully never 285 00:14:52,080 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 13: have to imagine. Egregious, disgusting, violent videos of young earls 286 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 13: who were bound and raped, in front of the camera, 287 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 13: and you have one hundred videos and thirty images of 288 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 13: that type of conduct. 289 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 4: I tried so long to understand and to reason. I 290 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 4: have to tell you. 291 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: When I sat at John Huber's office, I saw the 292 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 1: description of the images that Mandy's husband was looking at. 293 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: They were in the sentencing memorandum. I got through too. 294 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 1: I don't know. Up until this point, I was existing 295 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: in ignorance that I just couldn't conceive this awful reality. 296 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 1: We've been focusing so much on the families and their trauma, 297 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: but now the violence was right in front of me. 298 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 4: I couldn't help a cry. 299 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 1: It really is as bad as John said. Other revelations 300 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 1: in the document offered insight into Michael's defense of his behavior. 301 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: During his evaluation, he claimed that his abuse of Adderall 302 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 1: had caused weird sexual behaviors and a weird impulse to 303 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 1: forward and collect. And this is a direct quote from 304 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 1: the sentencing memorandum. Whatever drove the defendant's highly devian acts, 305 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 1: one thing is clear. The Adderall didn't make him do it. 306 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 1: After all, the defendants stopped taking Adderall eight months before 307 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 1: law enforcement appeared at his doorstep seized his personal cell 308 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 1: phone and found many sickening videos and images plainly kept 309 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 1: by him. There were a few other details worth noting 310 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 1: in the report. The evaluator requested treatment for meth addiction. 311 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 1: The finding was that there was a paraphilic disorder, but 312 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 1: it was not pedophilia but fetishistic disorder. And the last 313 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 1: and most disturbing, some of the victims in his video 314 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 1: collection were the same age as his toddler daughter. 315 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 5: I didn't want to know the details of it. A 316 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 5: totally other nightmare that I don't want to live. 317 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:07,399 Speaker 1: You know, Michael's sentence was meaningful, forty eight months in 318 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:08,199 Speaker 1: federal prison. 319 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 4: Still you could say he caught a break. 320 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:13,920 Speaker 1: The government wanted sixty months, and it could have gone 321 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:17,160 Speaker 1: as high as eighty four. When Mandy last heard from him, 322 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,160 Speaker 1: he was in a halfway house, preparing to re enter society. 323 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:24,159 Speaker 1: We've been talking a lot about justice and how perpetrators 324 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 1: of c SAM were prosecuted and sentenced. 325 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 4: I wanted to take a step back. 326 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 1: And meet some of the people on the ground who 327 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:33,399 Speaker 1: chase down the leads generated by the National Center for 328 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 1: Missing and Exploited Children. The people who go on those raids, 329 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 1: a lot of them are part of the Internet Crimes 330 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:42,400 Speaker 1: Against Children Task Force or i CAAQ. For sure, there's 331 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:46,359 Speaker 1: at least one in every state. IICAC members include federal, state, 332 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 1: and local law enforcement. Detective Rue from the Riverton Police Department, 333 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 1: he's a part of IKAK. The task force investigates and 334 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: develops responses to Internet crimes against children. These individuals are 335 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: unsung heroes. Their purpose for existing is to keep kids safe, 336 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:06,440 Speaker 1: and as we learn, it's often at great personal cost. 337 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 1: While in Utah, I wanted to visit with them. 338 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 2: I'm Alan White, I'm the Utah Internet Crims Against Children 339 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:17,199 Speaker 2: task Force Commander for the State of Utah. It's out 340 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 2: of control. Just back at the commander's meeting. All task 341 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 2: forces are receiving so many cyber tip referrals from the 342 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:30,160 Speaker 2: National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, processing twenty six 343 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:34,199 Speaker 2: million cyber tips annually. In Utah, we're on track to 344 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 2: see four thousand of those tips. 345 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 1: The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children is a 346 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 1: private nonprofit that receives most of the tips about child 347 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 1: sexual abuse material. Some tips come from individuals, but most 348 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:51,400 Speaker 1: come from social media companies. The Center then contacts local 349 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: law enforcement or the state's ICAC team who follow up 350 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 1: on those tips. 351 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 2: The case agents determine is that going to be a 352 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:00,919 Speaker 2: knock and talk or do we do a full search 353 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 2: warrant and take a tactical team up to the door 354 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:06,959 Speaker 2: and serve a search warrant. In some cases it's more educational. 355 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 2: It may indicate that it's more of a teenager, and 356 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 2: we'll try to focus that interaction more on education. We 357 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:17,639 Speaker 2: were out doing a knock and talk a couple of 358 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 2: weeks ago and it ended up being. 359 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 14: A six year old little girl with a YouTube account and. 360 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:26,679 Speaker 2: There was a legal content on it. 361 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:28,959 Speaker 4: Google had flagged the account and shut it down. 362 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:31,920 Speaker 1: This six year old girl was taking images of herself 363 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 1: and posting them online, and they were concerning enough to 364 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 1: trip whatever algorithm is in place a flag seesam. Her 365 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:41,240 Speaker 1: parents had no idea what their daughter was doing. 366 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 2: They have a phone, they have a camera, they have 367 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 2: a video recorder, they have email. It's a small computer, 368 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 2: and we're giving these smart devices to our children with 369 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 2: unfettered access, and they can manipulate those devices a lot 370 00:19:58,000 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 2: better than. 371 00:19:58,840 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 15: Some of the adults. 372 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:03,719 Speaker 1: That case was an exception, but an opportunity to educate 373 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: her parents. Most of the tips Ikak receives are of 374 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 1: people deliberately creating or downloading child sexual abuse imagery. Alan 375 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:15,040 Speaker 1: has seventeen years in the field and he's seeing the 376 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 1: damage CCM offenders cause. 377 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 2: I started this work back in two thousand and six, 378 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:26,360 Speaker 2: and I've had different thoughts throughout the years, but as. 379 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:32,360 Speaker 14: Prevalent as it is, and the amount of manipulation these 380 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:37,639 Speaker 14: suspects due to their families, I've had suspects say in 381 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:39,880 Speaker 14: an interview, I wondered when you were going to show 382 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 14: up their families and the ones they love the most. 383 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:49,879 Speaker 14: They're collateral victims and it destroys these families and we 384 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 14: get to witness the beginning. 385 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:56,159 Speaker 15: Of that destruction when we make contact with these people. 386 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 4: This type of work takes a toll. 387 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 2: Watching the video to write a description, and that's the 388 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:06,720 Speaker 2: absolute worst. 389 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:07,120 Speaker 15: Part of the job. 390 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:11,639 Speaker 3: It's emotional, it's not easy. 391 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 2: The day to day is so I'm thinking of images 392 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 2: and videos in my mind that I've experienced, and it's 393 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 2: beyond your wildest imagination. What motivates me saving kids, the 394 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:34,959 Speaker 2: children we rescue is enough motivation that I'm still in 395 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:36,639 Speaker 2: the game. I want to be on the team that 396 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 2: continues to protect children. 397 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:42,200 Speaker 1: There have been days when Alan literally left, walked out 398 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 1: and said, I'll be back tomorrow, but I can't do 399 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:53,199 Speaker 1: any more today. You tell State Attorney General Sean Reyes 400 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: acknowledged how tough it gets for his officers. 401 00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:02,160 Speaker 16: When I came in, we instituted mandatory therapy and support 402 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:06,720 Speaker 16: so they could access, you know, mental behavioral health specialists 403 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:11,440 Speaker 16: who specialize also in kind of battlefield trauma. When you're 404 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:14,920 Speaker 16: dealing with the kind of stuff that my agents have 405 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 16: to see, especially in the dark Web, that's like the 406 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 16: seventh ring of Dante's Hell, like it's the worst of 407 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 16: the worst, the worst. You actually have to prove how 408 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:29,399 Speaker 16: evil you are by posting or showing and demonstrating certain 409 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:32,200 Speaker 16: acts that are so heinous and despicable that I don't 410 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 16: even try to think about them when I go home. 411 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 2: The women and men that do this work, they're every 412 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 2: day superheroes. 413 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 15: They really are. 414 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,160 Speaker 4: Alan introduced us to some of them around the office. 415 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 2: This is the ICAC team back here, but we're doing it. 416 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,360 Speaker 2: We're starting with a tour and then I'll disappoint them. 417 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 2: So we're starting with the high point. 418 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 4: We'll report back. 419 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:03,199 Speaker 2: We have five full time agents. One agent that's a 420 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:06,920 Speaker 2: forensic examiner. This is our Hawaiian museum. If you want 421 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,120 Speaker 2: to take a peek in here. This is a kolu hi. 422 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:16,200 Speaker 1: I met Akolu de la Santos. His office was a 423 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 1: little slice of Hawaiian heaven. Instead of a door, I walked. 424 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 4: Through hanging beads into groovy music. Wow, a lot of 425 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 4: come on in. 426 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,440 Speaker 15: Just take gander. Warm fire right. 427 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:28,920 Speaker 4: There, a fire burned on the wall. 428 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 1: It was on a TV monitor, but still it gave 429 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 1: the space great atmosphere. 430 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:39,199 Speaker 15: Just the representing my culture and my family and stuff. 431 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 15: I'm from your fiftieth state. That's pretty much it. 432 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 4: That's not all of it. He is creating Functuay for 433 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:48,160 Speaker 4: his mind. 434 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:50,159 Speaker 15: I like it like this just because, you know, the 435 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 15: stuff that we deal with just every day. We have 436 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 15: to escape every once in a while, and I like 437 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 15: to put up stuff that makes me feel comfortable. 438 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,639 Speaker 1: Culu is a big guy, six foot five, and he 439 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 1: looks like a professional bodybuilder, but he only cares about 440 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:05,920 Speaker 1: one thing. 441 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:11,639 Speaker 15: I have four kids, three grandkids, and my motivation just 442 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 15: for being here is them. I want to step in 443 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,399 Speaker 15: and be that guy to you know, when the predator 444 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 15: opens the door and they're expecting a thirteen year old girl. 445 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 15: It's a three hundred pounds Polynesian guy that they're looking at. 446 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 1: Even the biggest and the strongest among them concern Alan. 447 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 1: He keeps tabs on everyone, making sure that they are 448 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:35,440 Speaker 1: coping mental wellness. 449 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 15: That's my biggest fear. 450 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 3: That's what keeps me up at night. 451 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 2: I get emotional talking about it. But yeah, throughout the day, 452 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 2: throughout their work, we try to keep one foot in 453 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:56,160 Speaker 2: reality regardless of what we're doing. Yea, this is Sade. 454 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 2: He's one of the supervisors. I command it. 455 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:01,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, to meet you guys, it's me. 456 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:06,399 Speaker 10: Yah, sorry, I'm she works out. 457 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:10,879 Speaker 15: That's that's my form of therapy. It works for me. 458 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 10: I do it every morning before I come in morning. 459 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:17,640 Speaker 1: Sete did the forensic work on Jason Litton's electronics. 460 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 10: Yeah, we assisted with forensics, running the phone in the 461 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:24,680 Speaker 10: computers and yeah, that's that's what I did in that case. 462 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:25,640 Speaker 15: I remember that. 463 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, that was a bad guy. 464 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:29,919 Speaker 4: But he also goes out into the field. 465 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,159 Speaker 1: He talked about what can happen when they gather a 466 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 1: family together and inform them that someone in the house 467 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,359 Speaker 1: has been downloading illegal content. 468 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:42,160 Speaker 10: Which is just about almost always figure out just by 469 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,119 Speaker 10: standing there. It's the person who doesn't want to make 470 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 10: eye contact with you. 471 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 2: Or sinking in the sofa slowly. 472 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:53,920 Speaker 8: Is it a mixture of mom, dad. 473 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:57,919 Speaker 2: Or alls often males. There's been three emails that I 474 00:25:57,920 --> 00:25:59,200 Speaker 2: can think of off the top of my head. 475 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:00,640 Speaker 15: It's rares. 476 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:02,200 Speaker 3: It's a female. 477 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:04,119 Speaker 4: Can you tell us your name for the record? 478 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,440 Speaker 15: Yeah, that's an outlie comments building. 479 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:13,400 Speaker 1: I was like, this topic has a lot of darkness. 480 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 1: It's shrouded in pain. But meeting the people at IKAC 481 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,399 Speaker 1: was like letting the light in. There are people who 482 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,680 Speaker 1: really care about their community and are making it safer 483 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:27,240 Speaker 1: in whatever way they can. I've been keeping up with 484 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,680 Speaker 1: the status of Michael Gibbs prison sentence. I was floored 485 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,199 Speaker 1: to find out that he was out early. So I 486 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 1: was wondering how Mandy was navigating his re entry and 487 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 1: boundaries with their daughter. 488 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 10: How are you? 489 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:40,920 Speaker 17: I am so good good? 490 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:43,720 Speaker 5: Yeah, from like when I last saw you, I'm doing 491 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 5: a lot better. 492 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:46,440 Speaker 18: What's going on with your acts? 493 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 5: He is out and he is staying with his mom. 494 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 5: He also has a new girlfriend who has three children. Wow, 495 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:04,200 Speaker 5: that's a that's a lot, right, that's a lot. Yeah, 496 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 5: So the interactions we have are usually between like his 497 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:16,160 Speaker 5: mom post grandma, and it's weird and super uncomfortable. 498 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,160 Speaker 18: What's happening with custody. 499 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 5: I have full custody of her. He has no desire 500 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 5: to have full custody of her. He doesn't want to 501 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 5: be a full time dad, nor does he think that 502 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 5: I'm a bad mom. So he got to see Sophie 503 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 5: and now basically he's off my back. 504 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 4: Michael asked Mandy for visitation as soon as she had. 505 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 5: Gotten out of prison and was in the halfway house. 506 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:42,159 Speaker 5: He was making it sound like as soon as he 507 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:45,439 Speaker 5: was out of the halfway house, he's done, Like I 508 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:45,879 Speaker 5: served my. 509 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 4: Time for a mother. It's an agonizing situation. 510 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:53,879 Speaker 5: It's something that I battle with all of the time. 511 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,199 Speaker 5: Do I keep her from seeing him because of what 512 00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 5: he did? All these questions like what is right? And 513 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 5: I wish that somebody could just tell me, Mandy, like 514 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 5: this is what you need to do, and this is 515 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 5: what's right, and this is what's safe, and this is 516 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:12,879 Speaker 5: what's good. But nobody tells me that, Like there's nobody 517 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:14,919 Speaker 5: that's going to sit down and tell me that I feel. 518 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:19,200 Speaker 5: So I just do what I think is right and 519 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 5: what I feel like is safe for so and what's 520 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 5: safe for me? 521 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:26,159 Speaker 18: That's me angry that you guys don't have something to measure, 522 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:27,400 Speaker 18: do you know what I mean? 523 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,240 Speaker 5: I know, I wish there was a manual. I wish 524 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,560 Speaker 5: I could read and like make sense of like how 525 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,440 Speaker 5: I don't know. I don't know. And the only way 526 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 5: that I can treat it is like a child when 527 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 5: he's around my child, he needs to be supervised like 528 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 5: a child. That's just that, and I feel safe when 529 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 5: that's happening. I mean, I trust his family entirely, you know, 530 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 5: I just don't trust him, and then that also makes 531 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 5: me like start questioning other things, and if I think 532 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 5: too much about it, then I'm like in full blown 533 00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 5: panic attack. So I try to just be like, Okay, 534 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,960 Speaker 5: there's so many adults there. We're fine. It's fine. She's 535 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 5: she's safe, she's happy. I know she's safe. That he 536 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 5: doesn't get to have sleepovers with her, and he won't 537 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,080 Speaker 5: and he doesn't try. 538 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 18: Have you seen any change in his behavior. 539 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 5: He's doing great, obviously. He has a new girlfriend in 540 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:24,040 Speaker 5: New life, and I get to meet her, which is awesome. 541 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 5: I'm super excited to meet her, and conversations with her. 542 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 18: Sounds like their kas on how did that actually make 543 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 18: you feel? 544 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 5: I'm horrified for her. I've asked him point blank many times, 545 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 5: like does she know, like she has three girls? Does 546 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 5: she know? And he says that she does. 547 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 18: Isn't he on the secondfender list? 548 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 17: Now? 549 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 4: Yeah? 550 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 17: Yeah? 551 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 5: So I don't know. I don't know if she knows. 552 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 5: It's not coming from a source of jealousy or anger 553 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 5: or like upset. I'm not trying to harm or hinder 554 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 5: him from having his life, but that the same time, 555 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 5: I'm feeling this obligation of some sort and like, how 556 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 5: much of it is my place? 557 00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 1: Right? 558 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 5: Because she's charming as fuck? 559 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 18: Are you just taking it day by day? 560 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 5: Or oh girl, that's like literally all I can ever do. 561 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 18: If you could say one thing to the Mandy that 562 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 18: just found out this news at were what would you 563 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:21,480 Speaker 18: say to her? 564 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 17: I would just hug her for a really long time. 565 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 17: I would just tell her that I was going to 566 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 17: be okay, that no matter what, it was going to 567 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 17: be okay, because that's all she just needed to hug. 568 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 17: Just yeah, Because there's nothing you can do about any 569 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 17: you can't change any of it, and there's going to 570 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 17: be so many hard days, so many, so many. I 571 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 17: didn't think that I was going to be able to 572 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 17: get through, but. 573 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 18: I hear you are. 574 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 17: Yeah. 575 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,479 Speaker 1: Just about when we've wrapped up this episode, heard from Mandy. 576 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 1: She had an update about visitation with her daughter. 577 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:07,200 Speaker 5: Last time we had talked, you had asked me if 578 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 5: I had heard from the probation officers, and up to 579 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 5: that point I had not heard anything. So it was 580 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:18,600 Speaker 5: maybe a week after we had talked last I got 581 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 5: a message from Mike and he was like, hey, when 582 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:25,000 Speaker 5: Sophie was here last time she had hung out with 583 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 5: Mike's mom. They had went back to the house and 584 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 5: Mike was there with her and Fran was there, which 585 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 5: was you know, like, as long as there's another adult, 586 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 5: I felt fine with that. 587 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 1: Fran is her daughter's grandmother and Mike's mother. Mandy wants 588 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 1: her daughter to spend time with Fran and trust her 589 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:44,240 Speaker 1: to supervise visits with Michael. 590 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 5: But I guess his probation officer had showed up during 591 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 5: that point to like do a check it or job. 592 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 5: So she called me and she's like, he can't even 593 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 5: be around Sophia until his therapist approves it. So I 594 00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:01,360 Speaker 5: was just super fresh because I'm like, I'm trying to 595 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 5: do everything right and like safe, and I don't know 596 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 5: if he knew and isn't telling me. I feel like 597 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 5: he's not being honest. After I got off the phone 598 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:14,960 Speaker 5: with her, I called him right back and I was like, 599 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 5: you have to know. This is part of your probation 600 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 5: and stuff. You have to know these things. 601 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 18: It's insane to me that he doesn't know that he 602 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 18: can't be around children. 603 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 5: Well, that's the thing, isn't asking her? I was like, 604 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 5: did he know this or is this something that you 605 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 5: guys just decided And she was like, well, you know, 606 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,600 Speaker 5: there's just requirements like she would not give me. I'm like, yeah, 607 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 5: I under that, and she was like, yeah, that works 608 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 5: up with this therapist. 609 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 18: So for a point of clarity, the probation officer told 610 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 18: you that Mike can't even be around your daughter, not 611 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:54,320 Speaker 18: even supervised visits. 612 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:58,360 Speaker 5: No, no, not yet, not until you've reached this point 613 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 5: with his therapist and not sure how often they meet. 614 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:03,600 Speaker 5: I know that that's part of his probation as well. 615 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 5: But whenever she gets to the point where she feels 616 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 5: that's copathetic, so I have to talk to her therap 617 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:12,880 Speaker 5: like that, I'd have to talk to them. I was 618 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 5: just talking to the probation officer and she said she 619 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 5: would keep me informed. 620 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 1: You can understand Mandy's frustration. She's trying to protect her 621 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:25,680 Speaker 1: daughter and she can't trust her ex husband. It feels 622 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:30,680 Speaker 1: like another betrayal. And let's face it, spouses aren't viewed 623 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 1: as victims by the law, but the weight of the 624 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 1: world is on them to continue to protect their kids. 625 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:42,959 Speaker 1: I wanted to look into this for Mandy. What's the 626 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,920 Speaker 1: process to find out what your ex husband, a convicted 627 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 1: FELA can and can't do. So our team did some 628 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 1: research and talked with the people who work on probation 629 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 1: supervision in Utah, and it took some time. If you're 630 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 1: not a lawyer or aren't familiar with the court system, 631 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 1: it's overwhelm and it's hard to know where you can 632 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 1: access all this information. 633 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 4: Here's what we learned. 634 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,680 Speaker 1: Anyone could obtain the parameters of an offender's release by 635 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 1: requesting the sentencing document from the clerk of the court. 636 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:16,600 Speaker 1: The forums are online, but there is a charge for 637 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 1: the copy. According to the US Court's Probation and pre 638 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 1: Trial Services District of Utah, the defendant, Michael Gibbs is 639 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,839 Speaker 1: restricted from contact with individuals who are under eighteen years 640 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 1: of age without adult supervision, and the probation office approves 641 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 1: a supervisor. The treatment provider, that is, whoever is providing 642 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:43,160 Speaker 1: mental health treatment the therapy that Mandy referred to must 643 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:44,879 Speaker 1: also approve the choice. 644 00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:45,399 Speaker 4: Of a supervisor. 645 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,680 Speaker 1: At the time of me taping this podcast, no one 646 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 1: had been approved as a supervisor for Michael to have 647 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:58,239 Speaker 1: visitation with a minor child. On the next episode of 648 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,920 Speaker 1: a trial, I just bald and broke down and told her. 649 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 1: She said, if you don't report this, I'm gonna report this, 650 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,759 Speaker 1: and I was like, oh fuck, it's go time. 651 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:17,839 Speaker 4: If you would like. 652 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:19,839 Speaker 1: To reach out to the Betrayal Team, email us at 653 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,680 Speaker 1: Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal Pod at 654 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:24,920 Speaker 1: gmail dot com. 655 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:26,000 Speaker 4: To report a. 656 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,279 Speaker 1: Case of child sexual exploitation, called the National Center for 657 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 1: Missing and Exploited Children's cyber Tipline at one eight hundred 658 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:34,000 Speaker 1: the Lost. 659 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,000 Speaker 4: If you or someone you know is worried about. 660 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:40,000 Speaker 1: Their sexual thoughts and feelings towards children, reach out to 661 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:41,239 Speaker 1: Stop It Now dot org. 662 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:43,799 Speaker 4: In the United Kingdom, go to Stop it Now dot 663 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 4: org dot UK. These organizations can help. 664 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:50,279 Speaker 1: Are grateful for your support, and one way to show 665 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 1: support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts 666 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,279 Speaker 1: and don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five star 667 00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 1: reviews go a long way. A big thank you to 668 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,920 Speaker 1: all of our listeners. The Trail is a production of 669 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:05,320 Speaker 1: Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group and partnership 670 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,760 Speaker 1: with iHeart Podcasts. The show was executive produced by Nancy 671 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:12,560 Speaker 1: Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning, 672 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 1: written and produced by Kerry Hartman, also produced by Ben Fetterman, 673 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:21,799 Speaker 1: Associate producer Kristin Melcurie. Our iHeart teams, Ali Perry and 674 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:25,960 Speaker 1: Jessica Kriintech. Special thanks to our talent Ashley Linton, Alan 675 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:29,200 Speaker 1: White and the Utah KAC task Force, and special thanks 676 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:33,240 Speaker 1: to Mandy Hale and production assistant Tessa Shields. Audio editing 677 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:37,280 Speaker 1: and mixing by Matt Alvecchio. Trail's theme composed by Oliver Bains. 678 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:41,240 Speaker 1: Music library provided by my Music and For more podcasts 679 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:44,640 Speaker 1: from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 680 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:45,799 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts.