WEBVTT - Not Lost Chat: Paradise City (Pico Iyer & Reggie Watts) 0:00:15.316 --> 0:00:22.596 Pushkin. By the time you hear this, I will be 0:00:22.636 --> 0:00:27.916 in an airplane exiting the United States. It will be 0:00:27.956 --> 0:00:34.316 my first non work trip since August. The irony at 0:00:34.356 --> 0:00:37.036 the heart of this season of Chat episodes is that 0:00:37.396 --> 0:00:40.716 I've been talking to travelers, but I've been stuck at 0:00:40.756 --> 0:00:46.356 my desk. While I've been talking to people who've traveled 0:00:46.356 --> 0:00:54.076 all over Ghana, India, Naples, Bora, Bora, I haven't gone 0:00:54.076 --> 0:01:00.396 further than Exit four on the Jersey Durmpike. Mostly I've 0:01:00.396 --> 0:01:05.476 spent my days in New York oh mule with blueberries, laptop, laptop, laptop, 0:01:05.996 --> 0:01:10.956 over priced salad, laptop, meeting laptop, some elaborately made dinner 0:01:11.036 --> 0:01:15.356 as a form of procrastination, laptop washing the dishes on 0:01:15.396 --> 0:01:21.876 good days. Bed. Now there's some positive things about not traveling. 0:01:22.516 --> 0:01:26.036 My laundry is done, my credit card bills are pretty low. 0:01:26.916 --> 0:01:29.476 For the first time, I've been able to respond to 0:01:29.516 --> 0:01:34.276 spontaneous invites to dinner with friends, and I could finally 0:01:34.276 --> 0:01:38.076 buy hair products over three point four ounces. But to 0:01:38.116 --> 0:01:43.196 be honest, I was starting to become homesick. Not in 0:01:43.236 --> 0:01:45.196 the I miss my own bed kind of way, because 0:01:45.196 --> 0:01:47.996 I did not miss my bed, but in the I'm 0:01:48.036 --> 0:01:51.716 sick of my home kind of way. I've done every chore, 0:01:52.196 --> 0:01:55.796 visited every local shop, walked every inch of my local park, 0:01:56.956 --> 0:02:01.316 streamed and schemed. But after being at home for a 0:02:01.356 --> 0:02:06.476 few months, my feet were beginning to itch in a 0:02:06.516 --> 0:02:12.116 metaphorical sense, because honestly, my feet haven't been cleaner. Yes, 0:02:12.396 --> 0:02:14.996 Over the course of this season, my guests have talked 0:02:14.996 --> 0:02:17.916 about travel as a means of self development, as a 0:02:17.956 --> 0:02:21.476 means of understanding humanity, as a means of escape, as 0:02:21.516 --> 0:02:24.756 a way of learning, and my instinct to travel could 0:02:24.876 --> 0:02:28.396 be a bit of all those things. Or maybe I 0:02:28.396 --> 0:02:30.796 don't need to overthink it. Perhaps I'm just one of 0:02:30.836 --> 0:02:36.476 those people who is genetically predisposed towards wonderlust. Or maybe 0:02:36.716 --> 0:02:40.956 the answers at my next destination. If it is, I'll 0:02:40.956 --> 0:02:45.556 be sure to let you know anyway. I have my 0:02:45.596 --> 0:02:48.596 ticket in my blazer. I booked a window seat. I'm 0:02:48.716 --> 0:02:50.996 prepared to yield the armrest to the person in the 0:02:50.996 --> 0:02:54.396 middle seat if needed. I have plans for my destination, 0:02:54.516 --> 0:02:57.476 whe they're not too specific. I won't turn my nose 0:02:57.556 --> 0:03:00.356 up at a tour, nor will I overthink what I'm doing. 0:03:00.916 --> 0:03:03.316 In short, I'm going to try to deploy all the 0:03:03.356 --> 0:03:07.676 knowledge I've gained this season, and yes, I might try 0:03:07.716 --> 0:03:11.116 to finagle a dinner. I might too. In the meantime, 0:03:11.356 --> 0:03:14.676 we have an excellent valdictory episode of Not Lost Chat 0:03:14.756 --> 0:03:18.356 for you. Today. Celebrated travel writer Pico Iyer is here 0:03:18.476 --> 0:03:22.596 to talk about paradise and musician, comedian and performance artist 0:03:22.636 --> 0:03:25.996 Reggie Watts stops by enlists what he thinks of when 0:03:26.076 --> 0:03:35.916 he thinks of me. Ragmatism, practicality, preparedness, helpfulness, flexibility, dynamicism. 0:03:36.276 --> 0:03:45.676 I feel seen when Not Lost Chat returns Welcome back 0:03:45.716 --> 0:03:48.796 to Not Lost Chat. I'm Brendan Francis Nunham. Later in 0:03:48.836 --> 0:03:52.156 the show, performance artist and musical savant Reggie Watts comes 0:03:52.196 --> 0:03:56.036 by to answer your travel questions. But first I speak 0:03:56.036 --> 0:04:00.836 with the doyenne of contemporary travel writers, Pico Iyer. My 0:04:01.036 --> 0:04:03.756 editor warned me that that word was a little too precious, 0:04:03.796 --> 0:04:07.436 but I think it's perfectly accurate for Pico. He has 0:04:07.436 --> 0:04:11.916 written fifteen books about everything from the Cuban Revolution to globalism. 0:04:11.996 --> 0:04:14.876 Some of his best sellers include Video Nighting, Catman Do 0:04:15.276 --> 0:04:18.436 and the Art of Stillness, and he also writes on 0:04:18.516 --> 0:04:22.916 average a hundred articles a year for various publications including 0:04:22.916 --> 0:04:26.236 The New York Times, The Financial Times and others. Plus 0:04:26.556 --> 0:04:29.236 and this is my favorite part of his bio. He 0:04:29.316 --> 0:04:32.356 splits his time between a Benedictine hermitage in Big Sir, 0:04:32.516 --> 0:04:36.676 California and an apartment with his wife in suburban Kyoto. 0:04:37.756 --> 0:04:40.596 And here you thought having separate bedrooms was the secret 0:04:40.596 --> 0:04:44.716 to alarm relationship. Pico's most recent book is The Half 0:04:44.756 --> 0:04:48.116 Known Life in Search of Paradise, and in that book 0:04:48.276 --> 0:04:51.676 he travels around to ten places across the world, places 0:04:51.716 --> 0:04:56.716 like Iran, North Korea, Northern Ireland, Cashmere. And if you're 0:04:56.756 --> 0:05:00.276 getting the sense that these aren't the typical places travelers 0:05:00.236 --> 0:05:03.476 associated with paradise, you're not alone. I had the same feeling, 0:05:03.796 --> 0:05:06.156 and when I met with Pico, I asked him about it. 0:05:06.196 --> 0:05:08.116 I said, you know, if I didn't know any better, 0:05:08.156 --> 0:05:11.116 I would assume you we're being cheeky about the search 0:05:11.156 --> 0:05:14.476 for paradise. You're absolutely right. I mean, I've been lucky 0:05:14.556 --> 0:05:16.916 enough to be traveling a long time, and so of 0:05:16.956 --> 0:05:19.876 course when you step into a travel agency, everywhere is 0:05:19.876 --> 0:05:23.036 presented as Shangola or Paradise. And when I was young, 0:05:23.116 --> 0:05:27.556 I would go to Bali and later the Tahiti the Seychelles, Antarctica, 0:05:27.676 --> 0:05:30.636 all the places that are commonly thought of as paradise, 0:05:31.156 --> 0:05:35.396 and what's paradise for the visitor often isn't for the local. 0:05:35.676 --> 0:05:37.756 If I were to ask one of them, what's your 0:05:37.916 --> 0:05:40.196 notion of paradise? So they say, oh, yeah, paradise is 0:05:40.196 --> 0:05:43.076 Santa Monica, It's New York City, It's that place across 0:05:43.076 --> 0:05:46.036 the ocean. If I go to somewhere that really does 0:05:46.116 --> 0:05:49.916 feel very content and self contained and unfallen, what do 0:05:49.996 --> 0:05:52.196 I have to offer to it? I only corruption. I 0:05:52.236 --> 0:05:55.196 am the serpent in the garden of Eden. And of 0:05:55.236 --> 0:05:58.756 course everybody's sense of paradise is different. So probably the 0:05:58.756 --> 0:06:01.316 best way of answering your question is this book rose 0:06:01.356 --> 0:06:05.956 out of the pandemic, and twenty hours after lockdown was 0:06:05.996 --> 0:06:08.796 announced in California, my eighty eight to old mother was 0:06:08.836 --> 0:06:12.476 raised into the hospital in an ambulance, losing blood very quickly. 0:06:12.796 --> 0:06:15.236 And when she came back, I flew through these three 0:06:15.276 --> 0:06:18.156 ghost down airports from my little apartment to Japan to 0:06:18.156 --> 0:06:20.276 be with her. So there I was sitting with my 0:06:20.316 --> 0:06:22.836 mother who was wavering between life and death and the 0:06:22.876 --> 0:06:26.276 whole world in this state of anxiety and lockdown and 0:06:26.676 --> 0:06:29.756 I was thinking, well, the only paradise I would really 0:06:29.756 --> 0:06:32.316 believe in is one that happens in the middle of 0:06:32.356 --> 0:06:34.516 real life and in the face of death. In other words, 0:06:34.796 --> 0:06:37.476 given that life is always going to throw difficult things 0:06:37.476 --> 0:06:39.476 at us, how can we find our paradise in the 0:06:39.476 --> 0:06:42.996 midst of that difficulty? And so, as you said, I 0:06:43.036 --> 0:06:46.196 thought back onto the places of conflict and the many 0:06:46.196 --> 0:06:49.476 war zones I'd been to, and I thought, maybe there 0:06:49.556 --> 0:06:54.116 is a durable paradise that can outlast even the harshest 0:06:54.116 --> 0:06:57.876 forms of reality. The book begins in Iran, and you 0:06:57.876 --> 0:07:00.836 know there's an oppressive regime there. There isn't a hot war, 0:07:00.876 --> 0:07:04.036 although there have been really intense protests of late. But 0:07:04.116 --> 0:07:05.796 there's a couple of reasons you went there. Because it 0:07:05.916 --> 0:07:09.796 also the origin of the word paradise, if understanding you, 0:07:09.996 --> 0:07:15.796 also comes from Persian culture, exactly so. And also I 0:07:15.876 --> 0:07:18.916 think the second reason is it's a perfect way of 0:07:18.956 --> 0:07:22.916 seeing conflicting visions of paradise, because, of course, as you 0:07:22.916 --> 0:07:27.876 are suggesting, the oppressive ayatold Us who rule Iran, maintained 0:07:27.916 --> 0:07:31.036 that paradise belongs only to the faithful, and the place 0:07:31.076 --> 0:07:35.036 called Zachar's paradise in South Tehran is actually a graveyard, 0:07:35.036 --> 0:07:36.916 one of the largest in the world, with one point 0:07:36.916 --> 0:07:40.876 five million dead bodies there. And meanwhile, as the protests 0:07:40.956 --> 0:07:44.956 remind us, so many of the citizens of Iran constructing 0:07:44.996 --> 0:07:49.116 their own paradise behind closed doors, which is a very secular, 0:07:49.276 --> 0:07:52.276 worldly place of sex and drugs and rock and roll. 0:07:52.796 --> 0:07:57.116 And then both sides meanwhile quoting from the Sufi poets 0:07:57.156 --> 0:08:00.516 that they learned in high school or elementary school, who 0:08:00.756 --> 0:08:04.196 remind us that the only paradise you can find is within, 0:08:04.396 --> 0:08:07.836 which I think at some level everybody knows. But as 0:08:07.836 --> 0:08:11.916 you say, Iran doesn't sound like a honeymoon location. But 0:08:12.236 --> 0:08:14.196 as soon as I got there, though I'd been studying 0:08:14.196 --> 0:08:18.076 it for thirty years, every hour of the next sixteen 0:08:18.116 --> 0:08:20.716 days was full of surprises. And one of the surprises 0:08:21.316 --> 0:08:24.196 is that if you're staying in a garden hotel in 0:08:24.356 --> 0:08:27.596 the desert city of YaST and you step out after 0:08:27.716 --> 0:08:30.756 nightfall and there are sweet smelling flowers all around, and 0:08:30.796 --> 0:08:33.916 there are fairy colored lights in the trees, and you're 0:08:33.996 --> 0:08:36.716 lead to this beautiful divan and you stretch out, and 0:08:36.756 --> 0:08:40.036 an elegant way it brings you slices of sweet watermelon 0:08:40.356 --> 0:08:42.316 and a pot of strong tea, and all around you 0:08:42.396 --> 0:08:46.396 the beautiful, soft eyed people exchanging murmurs. My heavens, it's 0:08:46.436 --> 0:08:48.916 as close to an earthly paradise as anything I've seen. 0:08:48.956 --> 0:08:52.316 And the Iranians or the Persians, for thousands of years 0:08:52.316 --> 0:08:54.796 have been building gardens that are meant to be a 0:08:54.836 --> 0:08:58.116 replica of paradise and an enticement to the paradise of 0:08:58.156 --> 0:09:02.076 the afterworld, and to this day they're as idyllic as 0:09:02.116 --> 0:09:05.156 anywhere I've seen on earth. You also mentioned as another 0:09:05.396 --> 0:09:08.716 fascinating detail is in your notes you would refer to 0:09:08.756 --> 0:09:12.276 Ara as paradise in case your notebooks were reviewed when 0:09:12.316 --> 0:09:14.916 you left, or in case your emails were being read, 0:09:14.956 --> 0:09:17.716 and so you had to kind of veil Run as 0:09:17.796 --> 0:09:21.276 paradise in your communications. Yes, I had to become as 0:09:21.396 --> 0:09:25.516 veiled and complex as a society around me. So because 0:09:25.836 --> 0:09:28.556 I think the first day I arrived there, I arrived 0:09:28.556 --> 0:09:30.116 in the holy city of my shard, and it was 0:09:30.116 --> 0:09:32.476 so surprising. I wanted to tell my friends back in 0:09:32.476 --> 0:09:35.476 the US, so I went online, no problem sending emails. 0:09:35.836 --> 0:09:39.356 By the third day my email account was completely blocked. 0:09:39.436 --> 0:09:43.716 So I was positive that some poor lackey in Tehran 0:09:43.876 --> 0:09:46.636 was being asked to read my every email at the 0:09:46.676 --> 0:09:48.556 same time as my email was blocked. I could go 0:09:48.596 --> 0:09:51.436 down to the hotel computer and send emails at any time, 0:09:51.836 --> 0:09:54.236 but realizing that somebody was reading them, I thought it 0:09:54.236 --> 0:09:56.676 was prudent to say this is the most wonderful place 0:09:56.716 --> 0:09:59.956 on earth. And so in that culture where everything is 0:09:59.996 --> 0:10:04.036 taking place between the lines and beneath the words, I 0:10:04.156 --> 0:10:07.236 quickly realized I had to be the same, and I 0:10:07.276 --> 0:10:10.076 had to pretend to be something that I wasn't. It 0:10:10.156 --> 0:10:14.076 was a most interesting, sophisticated, rich place I've ever been, 0:10:14.196 --> 0:10:17.156 the number one destination of my life. But I did 0:10:17.156 --> 0:10:20.156 always feel that somebody was looking over my shoulder, and 0:10:20.316 --> 0:10:23.076 it was wise to be vigilant. And when you say 0:10:23.116 --> 0:10:25.156 it's the most interesting place you've ever been, that is 0:10:25.276 --> 0:10:29.036 high praise, since you spend a lot of your life traveling. 0:10:29.956 --> 0:10:33.476 On that point about traveling, how if at all, do 0:10:33.516 --> 0:10:37.876 you think that you're living betwixt and between places affects 0:10:37.876 --> 0:10:41.476 your view of paradise, Well, it changes in my relation 0:10:41.516 --> 0:10:43.876 to home, Because you're absolutely right. I grew up in 0:10:43.876 --> 0:10:47.916 the passageways and criss crossings between cultures as the child 0:10:47.956 --> 0:10:51.556 of Indian parents born and growing up in England, moving 0:10:51.556 --> 0:10:54.476 to California at seven, and then from the age of nine, 0:10:54.516 --> 0:10:57.956 commuting back and forth every few weeks between England and California, 0:10:57.996 --> 0:11:00.676 and now living in Japan for thirty five years on 0:11:00.676 --> 0:11:04.836 a tourist visa. The space in between is my home, 0:11:04.876 --> 0:11:07.476 and I'm very comfortable there, with one foot inside and 0:11:07.516 --> 0:11:10.436 one foot outside. When a little boy, I was the 0:11:10.516 --> 0:11:13.636 only dark skinned kid in all my classes in England, 0:11:13.836 --> 0:11:17.196 So I never guessed then that what was so unusual 0:11:17.596 --> 0:11:19.876 at that time would be the norm. I think if 0:11:19.916 --> 0:11:22.876 I go to a classroom in San Francisco, I bet 0:11:23.556 --> 0:11:26.316 forty percent or maybe more of the kids would be 0:11:26.476 --> 0:11:28.796 just as in between as I am, and have lots 0:11:28.796 --> 0:11:32.116 and lots of cultures inside them and around them. And 0:11:32.156 --> 0:11:34.636 I think that's the great beauty of this new century. 0:11:35.556 --> 0:11:37.836 I do think, as you say, it's not a paradise 0:11:38.316 --> 0:11:41.036 for many people. It's a purgatory, not being able to 0:11:41.036 --> 0:11:44.276 define themselves in a clear way. For me, it just 0:11:44.396 --> 0:11:47.276 reminded me that home had nothing to do with any 0:11:47.276 --> 0:11:50.516 physical location. It had to be what lives inside me, 0:11:51.156 --> 0:11:54.956 my mother, my wife, the songs that go through my head, 0:11:54.996 --> 0:11:57.196 the books I carry around with me, wherever I go. 0:11:57.676 --> 0:12:01.156 And I'd always felt that, But actually, when I speak 0:12:01.156 --> 0:12:03.956 of purgatory, this book came out of the lockdown, as 0:12:03.996 --> 0:12:08.436 I was saying, and that was an in between time, essentially, 0:12:08.516 --> 0:12:11.116 like the in between spaces where I've lived, And in 0:12:11.156 --> 0:12:13.836 that in between time, I was thinking, and I'm sure 0:12:13.876 --> 0:12:16.756 many other people were thinking, Well, this is a time 0:12:16.796 --> 0:12:19.236 of uncertainty. We can't go anywhere, we don't know what's 0:12:19.236 --> 0:12:21.596 coming over the horizon. How can we make it as 0:12:21.636 --> 0:12:24.116 close to paradise as possible? How can we make ourselves 0:12:24.396 --> 0:12:29.876 warm and cozy in this state of anxiety and unsettledness. 0:12:30.276 --> 0:12:32.516 I wonder when you're going to places to write about them, 0:12:32.836 --> 0:12:34.956 there is a certain amount of fantasy. Do you arrive 0:12:34.996 --> 0:12:38.196 with an assignment. You arrive to pay attention, but you 0:12:38.276 --> 0:12:42.236 don't have to get too involved in the mundane. And 0:12:42.276 --> 0:12:44.676 I'm wondering if that, in a way it gives some 0:12:44.716 --> 0:12:48.876 sort of artificial feeling of you know, you're unburdened by 0:12:49.036 --> 0:12:51.796 certain mechanics of life because you are just always kind 0:12:51.796 --> 0:12:55.196 of on assignment and adrift. Well, you're right, I mean, 0:12:55.236 --> 0:12:59.116 the tourist is always carrying an artificial paradise around with 0:12:59.236 --> 0:13:02.436 him and there's this dis equilibrium because we arrive in 0:13:02.556 --> 0:13:04.956 Bali and as you say, we imagine we can do 0:13:04.996 --> 0:13:08.156 anything we want. We're free of obligation, we're on holiday, 0:13:08.396 --> 0:13:10.556 and the people were meeting at desperately trying to make 0:13:10.596 --> 0:13:13.836 a living. So I've always felt that the traveler is 0:13:13.916 --> 0:13:18.516 living in a sort of false paradise of projections and illusions. Yes, 0:13:19.356 --> 0:13:22.796 you visit Kashmir, which you describe one point as the 0:13:22.796 --> 0:13:25.836 paradise that's shone in your mother's heart, and that is 0:13:25.876 --> 0:13:27.996 such a beautiful chapter. I don't know if that's why 0:13:27.996 --> 0:13:30.636 it in such a beautiful chapter in this book, but 0:13:30.716 --> 0:13:34.396 I do think the duality of the water versus the 0:13:34.516 --> 0:13:38.636 land there, versus the political situation versus the hope, and 0:13:38.756 --> 0:13:42.116 tourism's role. Could you speak about Kashmir and how it 0:13:42.156 --> 0:13:45.036 fits into your kind of search for paradise. Yeah, no, 0:13:45.156 --> 0:13:50.156 that's so beautifully, said Brendon. I mean you caught it perfectly. So, Yes, 0:13:50.196 --> 0:13:53.076 as you said, I grew up on my mother's remembrances 0:13:53.076 --> 0:13:56.396 from nineteen forty one of the lake under the snow 0:13:56.436 --> 0:13:59.316 caps and the fields full of alpine flowers, and it 0:13:59.436 --> 0:14:01.636 was a magical place for her growing up in Bombay, 0:14:02.116 --> 0:14:04.356 And when finally I made it there a few years ago, 0:14:04.436 --> 0:14:07.516 I stayed on as every traveler does, on a houseboat 0:14:07.876 --> 0:14:11.196 on lake, and there was a lotus pond right outside 0:14:11.276 --> 0:14:13.996 my window, and there was no sound but the whir 0:14:14.236 --> 0:14:18.556 of Kingfisher's wings, and people would paddle slowly past, bringing 0:14:18.756 --> 0:14:22.516 curries right to the doorstep or beautiful intricate carved boxes, 0:14:22.756 --> 0:14:26.396 and couldn't have been more peaceful and heavenly, so long 0:14:26.556 --> 0:14:29.996 as I screened out the fact that, just as you said, 0:14:29.996 --> 0:14:33.716 ten minutes away on land, there were five hundred thousand 0:14:33.756 --> 0:14:37.436 soldiers keeping an uneasy piece in a violent and occupied 0:14:37.476 --> 0:14:40.516 place that for seventy years has been fought over by 0:14:40.876 --> 0:14:44.316 India in Pakistan. And again that's part of the hazard 0:14:44.356 --> 0:14:46.916 of being a paradise. Everyone wants to claim you, and 0:14:47.236 --> 0:14:50.236 there are lots of people fighting over the same territory. 0:14:50.236 --> 0:14:53.636 And so I thought, well, this is it's a paradise, 0:14:53.676 --> 0:14:57.756 so long as I ignore the reality for the Cashmirius, 0:14:57.796 --> 0:15:02.356 which is a very tragic reality. In that chapter, you 0:15:02.436 --> 0:15:04.476 also you describe a lot of the people you meet 0:15:04.516 --> 0:15:06.476 and what you learn from them, and I think a 0:15:06.596 --> 0:15:10.556 more personal kind of do our that one has to 0:15:10.596 --> 0:15:13.996 exist with in order to find peace. I think the 0:15:14.076 --> 0:15:17.956 character he encountered. His name is Johnny, is that correct? Yes, yes, yes, 0:15:18.116 --> 0:15:20.716 And can you talk a little bit about his story 0:15:20.836 --> 0:15:23.796 and how he ended up there and found his way there. 0:15:24.076 --> 0:15:27.076 So Johnny is a British tour guide and I had 0:15:27.116 --> 0:15:29.916 been told by my magazine edit he's the guy you 0:15:29.916 --> 0:15:32.556 should make contact with and should show you around Kashmir. 0:15:32.636 --> 0:15:36.356 And indeed he was. He knew everyone and everywhere, and 0:15:36.476 --> 0:15:38.996 in the course of our days together he told me 0:15:39.076 --> 0:15:42.476 how twenty five years earlier, as a very very young traveler, 0:15:42.636 --> 0:15:46.676 he'd come to Kashmir with his girlfriend and they stayed 0:15:46.716 --> 0:15:51.116 on the houseboat called the Dream Palace, and one night 0:15:51.556 --> 0:15:54.996 he woke up and his girlfriend couldn't breathe, and he 0:15:55.076 --> 0:15:58.076 did everything he could, and she was dead at the 0:15:58.116 --> 0:16:02.836 age of probably twenty three. And every traveler's nightmare, and 0:16:02.956 --> 0:16:05.916 in a very difficult foreign place, there's your girlfriend. Not 0:16:05.956 --> 0:16:08.876 only is she dead, but the police take him to 0:16:08.916 --> 0:16:11.676 be the number one suspect if it was not a 0:16:11.756 --> 0:16:15.636 natural death. And so suddenly his time in the paradise 0:16:15.636 --> 0:16:18.596 of Kashmir involves going to the police station, going to 0:16:18.636 --> 0:16:21.636 the coroner's office, making the most difficult phone call of 0:16:21.676 --> 0:16:25.196 all to his girlfriend's parents back in England. I mean, 0:16:25.276 --> 0:16:29.796 just a devastating thing. And then finally he went back 0:16:29.916 --> 0:16:33.316 to England. And I imagined, after all that the one 0:16:33.356 --> 0:16:35.276 place in the world he would never want to see 0:16:35.316 --> 0:16:38.516 again is Kashmir. But of course I met him in Kashmir, 0:16:38.796 --> 0:16:42.076 and in fact, as soon as Kashmir opened to visitors 0:16:42.116 --> 0:16:45.836 again after some turmoil, he was the first professional talk 0:16:45.876 --> 0:16:50.396 guide operator to go back. And he felt he wanted 0:16:50.396 --> 0:16:52.716 to help Kashmir, which is a region he'd always loved, 0:16:53.076 --> 0:16:56.156 but he also thought he could only repair his heart 0:16:56.516 --> 0:16:59.076 by going to the place where his heart had been shattered. 0:16:59.676 --> 0:17:02.836 And it also spoke, as you perfectly pointed out, to 0:17:02.876 --> 0:17:05.836 this duality that on the one hand, I, who was 0:17:05.876 --> 0:17:08.996 traveling there with Johnny, was like Johnny, trying to revise 0:17:09.276 --> 0:17:12.436 this place which had suffered so much over seventy years 0:17:12.436 --> 0:17:16.516 of war. On the other hand, a tourists can only 0:17:16.636 --> 0:17:19.716 have a good time in Kashmir by sort of a 0:17:19.836 --> 0:17:22.436 time is pretending that the war doesn't exist and sitting 0:17:22.436 --> 0:17:25.916 out on the lake in this stillness of this paradise 0:17:26.036 --> 0:17:29.316 lem setting. So as you said, it's a very complex 0:17:29.356 --> 0:17:33.556 hornetsness but Johnny really moved me by his resolve to 0:17:33.676 --> 0:17:35.836 go into the place that had been so difficult and 0:17:36.116 --> 0:17:38.276 really come through it the other on the other side, 0:17:38.276 --> 0:17:42.916 and now introduce many other people to Kashmir. Yes, I 0:17:42.916 --> 0:17:45.716 think what's also interesting about that it's a side. Now. 0:17:45.836 --> 0:17:48.196 Sometimes when I'm travel writing, I would almost ignored the 0:17:48.236 --> 0:17:51.356 travel guide. I would almost be chagrined that, Okay, here 0:17:51.396 --> 0:17:52.996 I am with someone who's going to kind of open 0:17:53.076 --> 0:17:55.636 up this place for me, and somehow it'll kind of 0:17:55.716 --> 0:17:59.116 taint the wisdom of this ancient place and not at all, 0:17:59.636 --> 0:18:02.196 you know, you wouldn't have encountered him otherwise, this character 0:18:02.756 --> 0:18:05.596 that's not a native of Kashmir but still has wisdom 0:18:05.596 --> 0:18:08.876 and can still give you insight into a place. Yeah, 0:18:09.156 --> 0:18:11.396 thank you. That's an interesting perception, and it was very 0:18:11.516 --> 0:18:15.596 deliberate on my part that in almost every chapter here, 0:18:15.796 --> 0:18:17.756 I am, as you pointed out, in the hands of 0:18:17.796 --> 0:18:21.316 a guide, usually local or a driver, and I wanted 0:18:21.716 --> 0:18:24.076 to make sure that I'm always in the passenger's seat, 0:18:24.396 --> 0:18:26.076 because part of the point of the book, and I 0:18:26.076 --> 0:18:28.676 think part of the point of travel is that, especially 0:18:28.716 --> 0:18:30.476 when I was younger, I assumed I was in the 0:18:30.596 --> 0:18:33.316 driver's seat. I was on top of everything. I could 0:18:33.316 --> 0:18:36.236 control everything, I could plan my day, and I knew everything. 0:18:36.556 --> 0:18:39.196 And the beauty of travel is it completely upends that. 0:18:39.596 --> 0:18:41.796 And I'm at the mercy of all kinds of things 0:18:41.836 --> 0:18:45.156 I can't begin to understand. And I'm very much metaphorically 0:18:45.156 --> 0:18:48.196 and in this case literally in the passenger seat. And 0:18:48.276 --> 0:18:52.116 so one reason that I gave this book the title 0:18:52.156 --> 0:18:58.156 The Half Known Life, is that was it the half 0:18:58.196 --> 0:19:02.116 known world I keep forgetting? And I think one of 0:19:02.156 --> 0:19:06.236 the reasons I gave that title is that I feel 0:19:06.236 --> 0:19:09.476 the amount that we really know is tiny, as if 0:19:09.516 --> 0:19:12.356 we're in a little tent up in the Himalayas, and 0:19:12.436 --> 0:19:14.716 maybe there are a couple of lanterns and we have 0:19:14.756 --> 0:19:17.716 a flashlight, but it's a small pocket of light in 0:19:17.756 --> 0:19:21.276 this vast darkness of the heavens above, pockmarked with stars 0:19:21.476 --> 0:19:25.036 and the silvery mountains around, And basically the field of 0:19:25.036 --> 0:19:27.676 our knowledge is tiny compared with everything we don't know. 0:19:27.796 --> 0:19:30.356 And we are in the passenger seed. We are at 0:19:30.356 --> 0:19:32.436 the mercy of the elements, and at the mercy of 0:19:32.476 --> 0:19:34.756 the guides and the locals who are showing us around. 0:19:34.956 --> 0:19:38.756 And so yes, I think in my other books, I 0:19:38.836 --> 0:19:43.916 was nearly always describing just traveling alone unguided through cities 0:19:43.956 --> 0:19:46.436 I couldn't make head nor tail of. But here having 0:19:46.476 --> 0:19:50.516 the guides in almost every chapter was really essential. Yeah, 0:19:50.636 --> 0:19:52.756 as a reader, I respond to it because I know 0:19:52.836 --> 0:19:55.236 what it's like to happen the back of an uber 0:19:55.436 --> 0:19:58.156 give myself over to someone like that. I trust you 0:19:58.196 --> 0:20:01.156 as my guide, but it seems more honest or authentic 0:20:01.196 --> 0:20:03.196 in a sense that you are a passenger and then 0:20:03.236 --> 0:20:06.276 I am joining you. In a way. It makes for 0:20:06.316 --> 0:20:08.996 a different sort of reading experience. You know, I was 0:20:09.316 --> 0:20:11.436 having dinner with the companion as I was preparing for 0:20:11.476 --> 0:20:13.956 this and trying to explain what the book is about. 0:20:14.516 --> 0:20:17.476 I think that's why it's fitting this book is called 0:20:17.476 --> 0:20:20.556 the subtitle I'll let you know because you might not remember. 0:20:22.436 --> 0:20:26.356 The subtitle is They Have Known Life in search of Paradise. 0:20:26.756 --> 0:20:31.036 It's about the search, and ultimately there is the fact 0:20:31.036 --> 0:20:34.036 that we just have to live in this in between 0:20:34.116 --> 0:20:37.356 the tension of the darkness and the light of knowing 0:20:37.356 --> 0:20:40.236 and not knowing? Am I wrong in that? I mean? 0:20:40.396 --> 0:20:42.596 Is that part of the reason it remains of search? 0:20:43.036 --> 0:20:46.796 There's there's no discovery, beautifully said, and I really my 0:20:46.916 --> 0:20:48.996 heart goes out to trying to explain what this book 0:20:49.076 --> 0:20:51.796 is about, because it's impossible to most people. I think 0:20:51.836 --> 0:20:53.636 it's just an enigma. It's one of the harder books 0:20:53.636 --> 0:20:57.156 to characterize deliberately, but exactly what you said. And I 0:20:57.196 --> 0:21:00.116 think the search for paradise is actually what gets in 0:21:00.156 --> 0:21:02.796 the way of our finding the paradise. That it's our 0:21:02.876 --> 0:21:05.996 notions of paradise or our longing for something that we 0:21:06.076 --> 0:21:09.756 don't have, that keeps us from seeing what we do have, 0:21:10.476 --> 0:21:12.716 which may be the closest to paradise we get. And 0:21:12.756 --> 0:21:16.916 so that's why this climatic moment, which in fact I 0:21:17.476 --> 0:21:20.236 don't fully describe in the book. But I'm in Varnasi, 0:21:20.356 --> 0:21:24.796 which is, as many people know, the most chaotic, terrifying, 0:21:24.996 --> 0:21:30.236 intense place in often chaotic, terrifying, intense India. For those 0:21:30.316 --> 0:21:33.716 who don't know Varanasi, as I understand it is, people 0:21:33.916 --> 0:21:37.996 want to have their loved ones bodies burned there. Over years, 0:21:38.036 --> 0:21:40.796 it's become like lower the or a magical place that's 0:21:40.796 --> 0:21:44.316 supposed to be a crossing ground and the auspicious place 0:21:44.676 --> 0:21:49.076 in which a traditional Hindu can enter the afterworld. That's right, 0:21:49.116 --> 0:21:51.356 you burn the ashes and you put them into the river. 0:21:51.436 --> 0:21:54.076 There there are flames burning to the north and south, 0:21:54.676 --> 0:21:57.756 reducing dead bodies to ash. There are people racing through 0:21:57.796 --> 0:22:01.316 the narrow lanes carrying stretchers to commit the corpses to 0:22:01.396 --> 0:22:04.676 the flames and the Holy waters, or naked ascetics walking 0:22:04.716 --> 0:22:07.356 around who live in graveyards and drink from skulls to 0:22:07.756 --> 0:22:10.556 show their indifference to right and wrong. And there are 0:22:10.556 --> 0:22:13.076 people bathing in the Holy waters and drinking from them, 0:22:13.236 --> 0:22:17.196 although there are there three thousand times beyond the maximal 0:22:17.316 --> 0:22:20.516 level found to be safe for consumption by the who, 0:22:20.756 --> 0:22:23.756 so as in this mad scene. I'm an one hundred 0:22:23.796 --> 0:22:27.036 percent Indian and Hindu by births, and even I'm freaked 0:22:27.036 --> 0:22:30.676 out by this. And suddenly I heard somebody call my name, 0:22:30.996 --> 0:22:35.916 and it was two Tibetan Buddhist monks, one older Tibetan 0:22:35.956 --> 0:22:38.316 and one an American monk whom I knew from New 0:22:38.396 --> 0:22:43.476 York City. And as I surveyed this sort of psychedelic commotion, 0:22:44.236 --> 0:22:47.836 the American monk said, isn't this gorgeous? This is the 0:22:47.876 --> 0:22:50.876 whole thing. This is reality, This is life and death 0:22:50.916 --> 0:22:53.716 and everything in between. This is exactly what we have 0:22:53.836 --> 0:22:56.356 to grasp This he might as well have been saying, 0:22:56.756 --> 0:22:59.796 is paradise. This is where we have to find our paradise, 0:23:00.116 --> 0:23:02.516 right in the middle of the chaos and the death 0:23:02.836 --> 0:23:06.876 and the stuff that we can't begin to comprehend. And 0:23:06.916 --> 0:23:11.156 I thought that was almost exactly what the book was about. 0:23:11.236 --> 0:23:14.956