WEBVTT - Confusion Reigns for Foreign Companies Operating in China 0:00:04.280 --> 0:00:07.640 Well, welcome back to Stephanomics and these mini episodes giving 0:00:07.680 --> 0:00:09.880 you a taste of the conversations here at the New 0:00:09.880 --> 0:00:14.360 Economy Forum in Singapore. And today I wanted to have 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:20.239 a conversation with Kendra Schaeffer, who has a really interesting 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:24.560 perspective on current debates about the future of China and 0:00:24.600 --> 0:00:27.560 the future of U S China relations as the head 0:00:27.560 --> 0:00:33.840 of tech policy research at a Beijing based policy consultancy Triviaan. Kendra, 0:00:34.920 --> 0:00:37.839 start by explaining a little about you, because you're just 0:00:37.920 --> 0:00:41.440 your own sort of recent personal history is kind of interesting. 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:45.520 You're based in Beijing until very recently. Yeah, absolutely, thanks 0:00:45.520 --> 0:00:47.840 for having me. So I just left Beijing a couple 0:00:47.880 --> 0:00:50.599 of months ago. I actually went to college in Beijing 0:00:51.080 --> 0:00:53.920 in two thousand and two. I kind of intended to 0:00:53.960 --> 0:00:56.240 just stay there, you know, for a year and then 0:00:56.280 --> 0:00:59.200 go back. I was a nerd kid. I started my 0:00:59.240 --> 0:01:01.800 career as a developed for actually, and then I've just 0:01:01.880 --> 0:01:03.880 been there for the last twenty years and my my 0:01:03.960 --> 0:01:06.240 career kind of went from you know, I was there 0:01:06.319 --> 0:01:08.640 right at the beginning of the Internet boom, and my 0:01:08.680 --> 0:01:11.480 career went from development to to tech policy research and 0:01:11.520 --> 0:01:14.800 a bizarre series of twists and turns. So yeah, I've 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:17.760 been there for for most of the COVID outbreak and 0:01:18.160 --> 0:01:21.600 just just kind of stepped out. And you must have 0:01:21.680 --> 0:01:24.319 this sort of interesting phenomena recently where those people who 0:01:24.360 --> 0:01:28.200 have managed the academics and China experts who have been 0:01:28.240 --> 0:01:30.720 able to be in China recently for one reason or another, 0:01:30.720 --> 0:01:33.360 they're so rare they get sort of mobbed by people 0:01:34.160 --> 0:01:36.640 for the kind of more recent take on on on 0:01:36.680 --> 0:01:39.600 things in China. Has that been your experience this week 0:01:39.640 --> 0:01:42.640 and in the last few weeks, Yeah, it absolutely has. 0:01:42.760 --> 0:01:46.040 I mean that's been you know, exacerbated by US China tentions, 0:01:46.080 --> 0:01:49.400 but it's also been exacerbated by a kind of axodus 0:01:49.400 --> 0:01:54.400 of China experts from China during the COVID pandemic um 0:01:54.480 --> 0:01:56.840 and so nobody has been able to really get back. 0:01:56.840 --> 0:02:00.560 I mean, US China travel cross border dial has really 0:02:00.600 --> 0:02:02.560 taken a nose dive in the last couple of years. 0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:05.160 So yeah, there's a lot of interest in what it's 0:02:05.240 --> 0:02:08.280 really like on the ground over there, particularly since you know, 0:02:09.040 --> 0:02:11.560 China's kind of gone off on on this you know, 0:02:11.600 --> 0:02:14.040 other timeline with COVID than the rest of the world. 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:17.120 So people are very interested in what's happening, and you 0:02:17.160 --> 0:02:20.000 are day to day, of course, also observing what's happening 0:02:20.040 --> 0:02:24.120 in the in the tech policy space and giving kind 0:02:24.120 --> 0:02:26.440 of daily up to you and your team might imagine 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:29.480 are updating your clients and talking to people in a regular, 0:02:29.880 --> 0:02:32.920 regular basis and how is your how is your business 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:34.640 done over the last few years, I guess is one 0:02:34.639 --> 0:02:37.920 way of putting it. Well, yeah, so basically what we 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:40.760 do is, you know, my tech team spends all day 0:02:40.800 --> 0:02:43.639 digging around in in Chinese tech policy documents and kind 0:02:43.639 --> 0:02:47.280 of trying to explain Beijing's motivations for you know, some 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:50.000 of the things that have happened, particularly in the last 0:02:50.000 --> 0:02:53.680 couple of years. And so business is booming. It's never 0:02:53.720 --> 0:02:56.560 a dull day, especially considering we've seen you know, the 0:02:56.600 --> 0:02:59.800 twentieth Party Congress, We've seen the tech crackdown, We've seen 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:02.680 you know, all of these companies kind of get hit 0:03:03.000 --> 0:03:06.359 fire hosed with new regulations coming out of Beijing. We've 0:03:06.360 --> 0:03:08.560 seen you know, censorship increase. So there's just been a 0:03:08.600 --> 0:03:11.280 lot of a lot of things to follow, and there's 0:03:11.320 --> 0:03:14.639 been significant interest in those things. And you were saying 0:03:14.680 --> 0:03:17.280 to me that, you know, one of the distinguishing features 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:20.560 of the consultancy is everybody there reads at least one 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:24.519 big pile of very boring policy documents every morning when 0:03:24.520 --> 0:03:27.840 it comes out. So we spend you know, I mean, 0:03:27.880 --> 0:03:29.960 we spend a couple hours a day just digging through 0:03:29.960 --> 0:03:32.840 the latest releases from the various government agencies. But not 0:03:32.919 --> 0:03:36.480 just that, also you know blogs from you know, policy 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:41.040 advisors and you know, other kind of micro moves from 0:03:41.120 --> 0:03:43.240 from Chinese think tanks and that kind of stuff, to 0:03:43.280 --> 0:03:45.280 really kind of get a sense of these these little 0:03:45.320 --> 0:03:48.040 steps forward. Whereas the media tends to focus on the 0:03:48.040 --> 0:03:50.560 big headlines, right, big big new movements, we kind of 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:54.400 track what's happened after those issues are not headlines anymore. 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:55.960 But a lot of people listening to this podcast, I 0:03:55.960 --> 0:03:59.000 imagine they're kind of fairly interested. I hope they're fairly 0:03:59.040 --> 0:04:02.160 interested in the global economy, um, but then maybe not 0:04:02.880 --> 0:04:06.760 focused necessarily on what's happening in business or tech policy 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:09.680 at any given time. When we hear that headline, you know, 0:04:09.760 --> 0:04:12.640 the tech crackdown. What do you think has actually been 0:04:12.680 --> 0:04:15.840 going on over the last couple of years with what 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:18.800 we consider to be the tech crackdown in China? Yeah, 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:22.120 I mean that's a fascinating topic. It's pretty much all 0:04:22.120 --> 0:04:25.000 anybody wanted to hear about last year, right, And because 0:04:25.000 --> 0:04:28.880 I think it's surprised so many investors. Um. But to 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:33.680 be perfectly frank, it probably shouldn't have. Ultimately, what is 0:04:34.200 --> 0:04:36.599 there was a lot of things going on. Number One, 0:04:36.680 --> 0:04:39.880 for the last fifteen years really maybe twenty years, since 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:44.000 China's big tech companies really started to develop. Um. You know, 0:04:44.200 --> 0:04:49.320 the state has struggled with figuring out where big tech 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:52.200 fits into the socialist market economy. Right. I mean, when 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:55.160 you really think about it, it's fascinating because big tech company, 0:04:55.240 --> 0:04:57.360 the emergence of big tech companies is the first time 0:04:57.760 --> 0:05:02.640 that Beijing has ever had to deal with with big, private, 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:07.160 domestic firms that are not state owned enterprises, right, And 0:05:07.240 --> 0:05:09.039 so the state has kind of not really known what 0:05:09.080 --> 0:05:11.480 to do with big tech in that regard. And for 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:14.320 the first fifteen years of tech company development, to be 0:05:14.400 --> 0:05:17.960 perfectly frank, tech firms were very dismissive of regulators. And 0:05:18.040 --> 0:05:19.680 you have a similar issue in the States, right, They 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:22.520 kind of brushed off a lot of regulatory authority and pressure. 0:05:22.960 --> 0:05:25.880 We kind of conceptualized that as the central government came 0:05:25.920 --> 0:05:28.719 after big tech. It's not really what happened. You know, 0:05:28.839 --> 0:05:33.839 you basically had a multitude of regulators going after, you know, 0:05:34.000 --> 0:05:37.279 concerned about a multitude of issues in the tech space. 0:05:37.320 --> 0:05:39.920 So that included things like the Central Bank was worried 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:43.920 that fintech platforms were being regulated like tech companies and 0:05:44.000 --> 0:05:46.719 not like banks, but they were basically behaving like banks, 0:05:46.800 --> 0:05:50.560 or at least by like financial institutions. Um. You know, 0:05:50.839 --> 0:05:55.599 you you had transport regulators and market regulators concerned about 0:05:56.160 --> 0:06:00.000 low levels of compliance legal compliance in the right hailing sector. 0:06:00.480 --> 0:06:04.400 You had the Ministry of Education concerned that ed tech 0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:07.840 companies were you know, overcharging parents and kind of making 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:10.960 it more expensive to have kids in a time when 0:06:11.000 --> 0:06:13.920 the population is declining. And so all of these things 0:06:13.920 --> 0:06:17.200 have been bubbling under the surface for you know, over 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:22.800 a decade um and then you know, as the state's 0:06:23.000 --> 0:06:27.280 priorities and their vision for the future digital economies started 0:06:27.279 --> 0:06:31.040 to solidify under Shijin Ping's government, you know, there was 0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:35.120 this growing concern that the state needed to step in, 0:06:35.160 --> 0:06:38.080 that all these regulators needed to step in and put 0:06:38.120 --> 0:06:42.640 these tech companies forced them to get in line with 0:06:42.720 --> 0:06:46.240 state directed goals, and so there was kind of a 0:06:46.279 --> 0:06:50.280 green light signal from the central government that these regulators 0:06:50.279 --> 0:06:54.600 could now go after you know, tech companies across this 0:06:54.640 --> 0:06:57.719 whole range of issues, and it just created a tidal 0:06:57.760 --> 0:07:01.120 wave of kind of pent up regular ship that I'll 0:07:01.160 --> 0:07:04.680 just crash down on tech companies at the same time. Uh, 0:07:04.720 --> 0:07:07.719 And that's kind of what investors experienced last year when 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:10.680 we see in the National Party Congress. Obviously the takeaway 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:13.240 that I think anyone who paid any attention at all 0:07:14.680 --> 0:07:18.960 had saw the headline, you know, she jumping consolidating his power. 0:07:19.360 --> 0:07:24.720 That's raised question marks about whether policy going forward will 0:07:24.760 --> 0:07:27.960 be driven by kind of considerations of what's best for 0:07:28.000 --> 0:07:30.560 the economy or much more about what's best for she 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:33.760 and what's best for for the for the government, and 0:07:33.760 --> 0:07:37.720 it's continued control. If when you look at in technology, 0:07:37.720 --> 0:07:40.800 it was a key part of China's future growth is 0:07:40.800 --> 0:07:44.320 going to be innovation in that sector. Does one see 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:50.560 the same kind of concern that she's increasingly iron grip 0:07:50.960 --> 0:07:55.720 could start slowing China's innovation or getting in the way 0:07:55.760 --> 0:08:00.600 of its growth. Yes, So the critical issue there is 0:08:00.680 --> 0:08:05.080 really that the state wants to encourage innovation, but innovation 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:09.320 along the lines of state directed goals. Right, The idea 0:08:09.600 --> 0:08:12.880 is really become that tech companies and particularly I'm talking 0:08:12.880 --> 0:08:17.400 about platform companies here UM, should be on board with 0:08:17.680 --> 0:08:23.120 leveraging their capital and directing their resources towards UH solving 0:08:23.240 --> 0:08:28.000 what the Chinese government tends to call bottleneck or chokehold technologies. Right, 0:08:28.120 --> 0:08:32.400 so the messages listen, tech platforms, we don't want you 0:08:32.400 --> 0:08:35.400 guys disrupting pizza delivery or whatever it is you're doing 0:08:35.600 --> 0:08:38.640 that's not helping the state. We want you to leverage 0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:42.400 your capital UH to develop high end chips, which were 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:46.480 you know, UM currently struggling to China currently struggling to 0:08:46.520 --> 0:08:49.240 develop that industry. We want you to leverage your capital 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:53.640 towards AI, towards you know, certain elements of blockchain development UM, 0:08:53.760 --> 0:08:56.959 and those are the goals that the state sees will 0:08:57.000 --> 0:08:59.960 help it develop its digital economy. That I should still 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:02.520 back a little bit because one of the fascinating pieces 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:04.320 of the digital economy, the way that the state has 0:09:04.360 --> 0:09:06.640 kind of framed it is that the growth of the 0:09:06.640 --> 0:09:11.560 digital economy in China is you know, many times faster 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:16.120 than the growth is the real economy. But their vision 0:09:16.160 --> 0:09:19.800 for the digital economy doesn't really include or platforms just 0:09:19.840 --> 0:09:22.640 kind of developing whatever they want, right, So that's really 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:26.800 that's really the issue. They want to put platform companies 0:09:27.200 --> 0:09:30.200 on a trellis and then have them develop on the 0:09:30.280 --> 0:09:33.880 trellis that the party has established. Does that make sense? Yeah? 0:09:33.920 --> 0:09:35.800 I mean I think a lot of governments would look 0:09:35.800 --> 0:09:37.920 at that and say, yeah, of course, we like to 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:42.480 have all the innovation or being super valuable useful things, 0:09:42.840 --> 0:09:45.800 and not in these things that seem rather frivolous or 0:09:45.920 --> 0:09:50.400 distracting from your knowledge of the way innovators work. I mean, 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:53.480 is how plausible is it that the government is just 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:55.960 going to be able to encourage innovation in some areas 0:09:55.960 --> 0:09:58.079 and not others. No, I mean, I think that remains 0:09:58.120 --> 0:09:59.839 to be seen. You know, I think about the answer 0:09:59.840 --> 0:10:03.880 to question, I'd be a bazillionaire. But you know, what 0:10:04.000 --> 0:10:07.440 we have seen as a response from platform companies indicating 0:10:07.640 --> 0:10:10.920 at least nominally that they are trying to get on 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:14.160 the boat. So we've seen platform companies go into chip design. 0:10:14.440 --> 0:10:17.760 We've seen platform companies go into you know AI. We've 0:10:17.800 --> 0:10:21.319 seen also seen a lot of moves by platform companies 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:27.160 to uh create platforms that help solve other domestic problems. 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:31.080 So for example, food security issues or rural revitalization, right 0:10:31.120 --> 0:10:34.520 kind of bringing jobs to the countryside, to to um 0:10:34.559 --> 0:10:38.560 you know, increase wealth in the farming population. So those 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:41.800 are all state directed priorities. And just to be clear, 0:10:41.840 --> 0:10:44.240 sorry when you say platform companies, what kind of companies? 0:10:44.760 --> 0:10:47.319 And Ali Baba video you know, you know d D 0:10:47.840 --> 0:10:50.160 So you know we've seen a lot of movements from 0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:54.800 those companies too to at least nominally follow that path. 0:10:55.480 --> 0:10:58.480 Whether or not that results in innovation down those passes 0:10:58.640 --> 0:11:01.800 is a question mark. But I you know, I think 0:11:01.840 --> 0:11:05.440 it's a little bit silly to say that state direction 0:11:05.520 --> 0:11:08.880 has not resulted in innovation in China. UM. You know, 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:15.040 it has in many cases, and so there's you know, 0:11:15.080 --> 0:11:18.160 there's a there's a possibility that they do succeed. The 0:11:18.200 --> 0:11:20.880 other thing that you have advantage point on it was 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:25.719 obviously relevant to this is US China relations and how 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:29.000 that's playing out on the ground. I mean, it feels 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:31.360 on the outside as if there's an enormous tension at 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:34.839 the moment between sort of the direction that politicians are 0:11:34.880 --> 0:11:39.240 moving in UM, whether it's what Congress people say about 0:11:39.240 --> 0:11:42.880 Taiwan or even what the administration says about wanting to 0:11:42.920 --> 0:11:47.040 prevent China from getting cutting edge chips and what businesses 0:11:47.480 --> 0:11:52.760 feel is realistic or desirable in the way of decoupling 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:54.679 from China. You know, I hear it again and again, 0:11:54.760 --> 0:11:57.680 companies saying, well, we hear this. You know, we're thinking about, 0:11:57.720 --> 0:11:59.959 you know, diversifying some of our supply chains, but when 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:02.920 not pulling out of China, and we are, if anything, 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:06.720 trying to you know, still continue to build our relationships there. 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:09.559 You're on the ground, or you were until recently, but 0:12:09.600 --> 0:12:13.680 you're still talking to um clients who are asking you 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:17.320 for the latest in China. Have you seen any let 0:12:17.400 --> 0:12:20.960 up in the number of US or global companies who 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:25.640 are investing in China and making long term plans for 0:12:25.760 --> 0:12:28.360 business in China. Well, I think you're I think you're 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:31.360 spot on there. Um. What we're really seeing is that 0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:33.959 companies are in a holding pattern. Part of the reason 0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:36.400 is US China relations That's half of it. But I 0:12:36.480 --> 0:12:39.800 actually think the bigger driver is china zero COVID policies, 0:12:40.160 --> 0:12:43.360 because the zero COVID situation for tech manufacturing is just 0:12:43.520 --> 0:12:46.200 out of control. You know, you have factories that are 0:12:46.320 --> 0:12:50.080 are trying to produce hardware that are just getting caught 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:52.480 up in lockdowns every two weeks. And you know, I 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:54.360 don't I don't know if you've been following this, like 0:12:54.440 --> 0:12:56.839 Fox can issue in Jung Joe, there was a COVID 0:12:56.840 --> 0:13:00.360 outbreak at the factory. Factory got locked down and most 0:13:00.400 --> 0:13:02.280 of the workers and we're tracking this right now, most 0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:06.760 of the workers fled. They just went home, right and 0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:10.920 and and just you know, they walked because no transportation 0:13:10.960 --> 0:13:13.080 would take them because they weren't supposed to be you know, 0:13:13.160 --> 0:13:15.800 on public transport if they were you know, under lockdown. 0:13:15.960 --> 0:13:18.160 People just picked up their bags and said, you know, 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:21.920 forget this, and they walked back to their hometowns. Right. 0:13:21.960 --> 0:13:24.800 I mean, it's just been it's been crazy that kind 0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:26.760 of stuff, you know. And then there was issues at 0:13:26.800 --> 0:13:29.600 the you know, Tesla factory and Shanghai. I mean there's 0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:33.800 just been worker protests and so it's really more that 0:13:33.920 --> 0:13:37.000 issue that I think is the immediate threat. What we're 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:40.120 hearing is that, you know, the same thing you're hearing 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:43.720 UM companies are looking to diversify outside of China to 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:48.880 mitigate risk both zero COVID and US China tension risk. Uh, 0:13:48.920 --> 0:13:53.560 they don't want to leave because there are few options 0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:57.000 and in some cases they literally have no other choice 0:13:57.240 --> 0:14:00.200 because the supply chain in China is so much or 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:05.120 for certain industries ship building for example, UM, that there's 0:14:05.160 --> 0:14:07.760 just nowhere else on on planet Earth they can go, 0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:10.080 you know, continue to do business at the same scale 0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:12.600 and continue to produce at the same scale. So they 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:15.440 don't want to leave UM and are are concerned about 0:14:15.480 --> 0:14:18.560 being driven out, but definitely are trying to hedge hedge 0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:20.680 that risk. But the other thing we're hearing is that 0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:25.760 in many cases, you know, a duplicate supply chain would 0:14:25.800 --> 0:14:28.640 require ten years to build in the cases of many 0:14:28.640 --> 0:14:32.960 of these companies. So you've just got you know, people 0:14:33.000 --> 0:14:36.600 are just doing their best to hedge their bets, but 0:14:36.760 --> 0:14:39.640 are largely still dependent on China. I guess finally people 0:14:39.640 --> 0:14:42.400 will be interested to know whether you have any plans 0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:43.960 to go back. I think you'll live it. You're now 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:49.320 living in Portland, UM, which must feel pretty different after 0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:52.200 all those years in Beijing. But you know, if there 0:14:52.280 --> 0:14:55.920 was a m if you were presented with a sort 0:14:55.960 --> 0:14:59.600 of compelling reason to to go back to beiging to live, 0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:01.800 would you would you consider that? Or do you think 0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:04.640 or is it becoming a bit more difficult to be 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:10.160 an American focused on China Chinese tech policy. Oh, I'd 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:13.240 absolutely go back given half a chance. I mean, I've 0:15:13.280 --> 0:15:16.840 got a big network of friends and obviously our our 0:15:16.880 --> 0:15:20.680 clients and and uh, you know, work friends over in Beijing, 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:23.760 and and I still, you know, deeply love it there. Um, 0:15:23.800 --> 0:15:27.560 but zero COVID has made it very difficult to remain 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:29.360 right when you can't get in and out of the country, 0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:31.120 especially when you travel as much as I do. It's 0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:33.320 a little bit difficult. So, I mean, my plans are 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:35.200 just to wait and see what happens with zero COVID. 0:15:35.800 --> 0:15:37.800 As soon as the restrictions start to let up, I'll 0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:40.440 I'll reassess. I've spoken to a number of people who 0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:45.160 do feel more vulnerable as US citizens in China now, 0:15:45.240 --> 0:15:48.240 just not that that that they personally would be under threat, 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:50.880 but that they could potentially be caught up in something 0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:53.600 larger or a diplomatic spat. But that's not something that 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:57.320 concerns you particularly well. I Mean, the issue essentially for 0:15:57.320 --> 0:15:59.280 for me is that you know, I like to be 0:15:59.400 --> 0:16:01.560 right in the middle of the action, regardless of any 0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:04.280 of that stuff. Um, it's definitely the tensions on the 0:16:04.280 --> 0:16:08.920 ground have the kind of feeling of being there as 0:16:08.920 --> 0:16:13.080 American has definitely changed. It's most certainly changed since I 0:16:13.120 --> 0:16:15.360 got there in two thousand and four, when everyone was 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:18.600 very excited to, you know, meet an American. And now 0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:20.160 you know, they ask you where you're from and you 0:16:20.160 --> 0:16:25.000 say the US and they don't. So but I think 0:16:25.040 --> 0:16:27.160 that's happening on both sides of the ocean, right, I mean, 0:16:27.200 --> 0:16:30.080 you essentially have a media environment both in the U 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:32.160 S And China that is kind of painting the other. 0:16:32.280 --> 0:16:34.600 You know, in the US, it's like China's this big, 0:16:34.600 --> 0:16:38.640 evil authoritarian state and the kind of number one adversary 0:16:38.720 --> 0:16:40.840 of of the U S. And you know, in China 0:16:40.880 --> 0:16:43.600 you're hearing things like, you know, the US is a 0:16:43.640 --> 0:16:46.920 hegemonic power that doesn't want to share with you know, 0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:49.880 anybody else except people that believe as they believe. And 0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:52.760 so there's this kind of you know, downward spiral of 0:16:53.080 --> 0:16:59.400 um communication, misscommunication and you know, negative conversation about the other, 0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:02.560 which is a very unfortunate situation to be in. And 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:04.879 I have definitely felt that over there. But you know 0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:07.240 that said on a day to day basis, people are people, 0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:15.000 and you know that's true all over the world, Kendra Scheffer, 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:18.719 thank you so much. Thank you. Well, that's it for 0:17:18.720 --> 0:17:22.119 this mini episode of Stephonomics from the New Economy Forum 0:17:22.400 --> 0:17:25.480 in Singapore. We will be back with more but in 0:17:25.520 --> 0:17:37.800 the meantime. Thanks to Yang Yang for producing this episode.