WEBVTT - Empire State of the South 0:00:03.279 --> 0:00:06.119 You are listening to you waiting on reparations at production 0:00:06.280 --> 0:00:11.280 of My Heart Radio. Somebody helped me. I'm depressed because 0:00:11.280 --> 0:00:13.080 when Daddy gets to try to plant and sends it's 0:00:13.119 --> 0:00:15.600 all the way to holiday and then exotic plates always 0:00:15.600 --> 0:00:17.800 in the blowing lines, doesn't any kid? And Marla Candon 0:00:17.840 --> 0:00:20.119 Planet ended all the rays of places. I'm probably not okay, 0:00:20.960 --> 0:00:23.759 cart but not restating the far away from where the 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.560 Hiltons live and the headling Bill the crabs butter because 0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:28.760 my will to live is minimal. Should gold the twenty 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:32.240 six years old? Isn't it pitiful? But because just truly 0:00:32.280 --> 0:00:34.199 the cruel squiler, if you did it right, could at 0:00:34.240 --> 0:00:38.120 truth to be something beautiful. I don't have nothing this week, 0:00:38.560 --> 0:00:42.239 yo yo, I just I just want to spit though, 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:44.760 make you feel ship walking in my big black boots. 0:00:44.920 --> 0:00:47.080 That's the steel tip was a wooden puppet. I just 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:49.239 want to be a real kid or whatever. As long 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:51.479 as I boy being and Neil lived like Neil did, 0:00:51.600 --> 0:00:53.600 I'll be moving faster than you see. You don't know 0:00:53.680 --> 0:00:55.880 if his computers are a master in my cheek. Keep 0:00:55.920 --> 0:00:58.280 guessing I'll be sweating like the pastor when he preached 0:00:58.320 --> 0:01:00.840 and got him pay attention like his I'm a teacher. 0:01:00.880 --> 0:01:03.240 Now you kids, don't pass or I'll whip your at 0:01:03.560 --> 0:01:06.080 and know my white friends sack because the crypto crash. 0:01:09.400 --> 0:01:17.640 All right, dad, Hey, what's good? What's good? People? I'm 0:01:17.720 --> 0:01:23.520 dope knife lingua franca. We are waiting on reparations. Man, Harry, 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:27.360 that ship up, so it's good with you, yo? Nothing. 0:01:27.959 --> 0:01:30.840 I mean I heard there's some wild ship going up 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:33.800 in Athlete. So I think I've spoken in recent episodes 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:37.920 about the uptick and gun violence. He had a recent shooting. 0:01:38.160 --> 0:01:41.960 I may have referenced that suspect it's fifteen years old. 0:01:42.520 --> 0:01:44.640 I suspected who have killed a thirty eight year old 0:01:44.680 --> 0:01:48.560 man with an a R fifteen. Um, I'm getting calls 0:01:48.840 --> 0:01:53.960 like every day from people who like mothers whose houses 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:55.920 got shot up in them and their seven kids are 0:01:55.920 --> 0:02:00.040 now homeless as they're seeking to move somewhere safer. And 0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:04.280 then Sunday, UM, I got a uh. It was informed 0:02:04.360 --> 0:02:09.240 that there was a an attempted robbery at a local 0:02:09.360 --> 0:02:14.560 pool UM the like a splash pad like aquatic recreational 0:02:14.760 --> 0:02:18.000 facility UM about a ten minute walk from my house. 0:02:18.639 --> 0:02:20.400 UM where a guy showed up with a rifle and 0:02:20.400 --> 0:02:22.480 trying to steal the cash box and then upon leaving 0:02:23.240 --> 0:02:27.360 h car jack someone at gunpoint. Um. And then when 0:02:27.400 --> 0:02:30.280 the police arrived, um, they shot him. They shot him 0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:33.280 to death. And so that is like that all transpired 0:02:33.320 --> 0:02:37.200 in the park where I walk every day, UM, Sunday 0:02:37.720 --> 0:02:41.840 and so. And you know, I've been speaking with people 0:02:42.040 --> 0:02:46.640 who work in the like with the homeless community also 0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:49.200 very near my house. They believe this man may have 0:02:49.320 --> 0:02:55.760 been a part of that community. Um. Um his he 0:02:55.919 --> 0:02:58.120 went by, his name has been released, but he but 0:02:58.400 --> 0:03:01.760 but in the like a homeless community, like he went 0:03:01.840 --> 0:03:05.600 by like a um, like a moniker. Until they're trying 0:03:05.600 --> 0:03:08.040 to confirm that this was the person they think it 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:10.160 was because they haven't they hadn't seen this guy around, 0:03:10.760 --> 0:03:13.200 you know, he wasn't around yesterday. They won't really where 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:17.359 is he? And so um you know, I I uh 0:03:17.800 --> 0:03:22.400 kind of issued a statement about the situation. UM. You know, 0:03:22.600 --> 0:03:25.560 there's two ways to answer the question did this have 0:03:25.680 --> 0:03:27.679 to happen? And if you look at the facts of 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:31.040 the immediate context that he was armed with the rifle 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:34.560 that he you know, assaulted several people, um and had 0:03:34.600 --> 0:03:37.000 a standoff with the police, the short answer would be yes, 0:03:37.200 --> 0:03:38.560 if you look at the fact that he may have 0:03:38.640 --> 0:03:41.200 been homeless, and you know, look at all of the 0:03:41.480 --> 0:03:43.520 all of the things in his life that led him 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:46.480 to that point that he's gonna rob the cash box 0:03:46.560 --> 0:03:51.880 from a children's like uh like uh, pool and steal 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:54.120 a car like you know, you're not living your best 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:56.400 life if you got to that point, and that everything 0:03:56.640 --> 0:04:00.200 every support he may have had or lacked is a 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:03.360 matter of public policy, like you know, And any opportunity 0:04:03.400 --> 0:04:05.400 he may have had her lacked, any stability he may 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:08.160 have had her lacked, are all choices that governments make. 0:04:08.600 --> 0:04:10.240 And imagine it's going to be pretty hard for them 0:04:10.280 --> 0:04:13.560 to put together exactly what what when we're wrong. And 0:04:13.680 --> 0:04:17.680 that's really a broader policy prescription that I've argued previously 0:04:17.760 --> 0:04:19.320 for and I feel like I'm or just from this 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:21.760 scenario as well, is that we do not have a 0:04:21.839 --> 0:04:25.760 comprehensive system of reporting on collecting information about the folks 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:27.880 that end up in our jails or end up interacting 0:04:27.880 --> 0:04:30.880 in the criminal justice system, about the life circumstances that 0:04:30.960 --> 0:04:34.400 brought them to the point of criminal activity. And imagine 0:04:34.440 --> 0:04:36.040 what we could do with that information if we had 0:04:36.080 --> 0:04:40.000 a quantifiable if we had a database of like, uh, 0:04:40.160 --> 0:04:42.799 you know, interviews with every person that ends up getting 0:04:42.800 --> 0:04:44.600 picked up by the cops and so is sitting in 0:04:44.680 --> 0:04:47.800 jail and and say, huh, we have a remarkable pattern 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:50.840 of people that dropped out of high school, or of 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:54.640 people that had substant abuse issues, or people that were homeless, 0:04:55.320 --> 0:04:58.440 like and could like use that data to say maybe 0:04:58.839 --> 0:05:03.120 we should invest in house thing so that yeah, you're 0:05:03.120 --> 0:05:04.600 stopping for you even get to that point. And so 0:05:06.080 --> 0:05:08.640 I've just had that. Really it's been waiting on me 0:05:08.640 --> 0:05:10.200 a lot, and and then and it comes and it 0:05:10.240 --> 0:05:12.840 actually comes to them. It brings us to the topic 0:05:12.920 --> 0:05:15.720 of this episode. UM interview that I did a few 0:05:15.720 --> 0:05:19.360 weeks ago with my friend and journalist and writer pal 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:23.000 Matt Polver, we talked about neoliberalism and the fact that 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:26.440 every like every other part of the social safety net 0:05:26.640 --> 0:05:30.680 underneoliberalism gets the ax, housing gets the accent. You know, 0:05:31.279 --> 0:05:35.200 um uh, well, you know the various for benefit programs 0:05:38.000 --> 0:05:41.440 is up for grabs, up for privatization, except or and 0:05:41.720 --> 0:05:46.200 even not even except and even um uh security forces. 0:05:46.720 --> 0:05:49.840 You know that that that's that's the last standing I 0:05:49.880 --> 0:05:52.120 guess social safety net, if you game call it that 0:05:53.960 --> 0:05:57.560 safety net for so long though, does it even necessarily 0:05:57.640 --> 0:06:01.240 qualify as the safety net anymore? And so fucking tight rope. Yeah, 0:06:01.320 --> 0:06:07.400 it's like thinking that it's it's tight together like band 0:06:07.440 --> 0:06:11.400 aid bandages, right right right? Yeah? And so I, um, 0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:14.080 you know, everyone thinks I'm a compaiter and stuff, and 0:06:14.160 --> 0:06:17.720 that might you know, be accurate sometimes, but in this 0:06:17.839 --> 0:06:20.240 regular scenario, going back to the scenario, this dude, I 0:06:20.440 --> 0:06:23.000 feel I feel terrible for the police officer that had 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:27.640 to shoot this man. Are unraveling of a social safety 0:06:27.680 --> 0:06:29.440 net put him in the position where he had to 0:06:29.680 --> 0:06:32.800 kill someone. Like no, but I don't want that for anybody. 0:06:32.960 --> 0:06:35.560 Then I'd of doubt they want that for themselves. And 0:06:35.720 --> 0:06:38.000 so um. In this episode we kind of talk about 0:06:38.040 --> 0:06:41.880 the the like what neoliberalism is, how we see it 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:45.840 manifest particularly in Atlanta and in Atlanta hip hop and 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:50.880 so um, I'm just also reflecting, uh, the last couple 0:06:50.880 --> 0:06:53.080 of days on how we're seeing it here in Athens, 0:06:53.120 --> 0:06:55.480 how we see that, how we see it everywhere, um, 0:06:56.600 --> 0:06:59.200 and and how it directly impacts you know, you think 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:03.320 very sister systemically about you know, these systems of power 0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:06.599 and like capital, etcetera. But like the way it impacted 0:07:06.680 --> 0:07:10.160 what man's life that ended on Sunday because he was 0:07:10.240 --> 0:07:13.280 so desperate he stole forty bucks out of a cash 0:07:13.320 --> 0:07:15.920 box at a children's playground. Yeah, and it's like nobody, 0:07:17.040 --> 0:07:19.160 nobody really is going to ever get to know, like 0:07:19.480 --> 0:07:23.160 what his full story was. No, no one will ever 0:07:23.280 --> 0:07:26.560 know his his whole story. I doubt that you know, GB. 0:07:26.680 --> 0:07:30.400 I will do an investigation determined, the Georgia Verreau Investigation 0:07:30.440 --> 0:07:32.800 will do an investigation determined the shooting was justified to 0:07:32.880 --> 0:07:35.960 close the book on it and walk away, because context, 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:38.320 like the idea of like, oh, the context of which 0:07:38.360 --> 0:07:41.520 this thing happened is so limited to like the the 0:07:41.960 --> 0:07:46.520 the immediate contacts and what happened, and and loses all 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:49.680 of the full context that actually explains both why it 0:07:49.800 --> 0:07:54.800 happened and how it could be prevented. So well, ladies 0:07:54.800 --> 0:07:57.560 and gentlemen, we're going to be back with that interview 0:07:57.600 --> 0:08:07.960 with Matt Polver right after the jump. So we are 0:08:08.040 --> 0:08:12.440 here with uh Matt pulverum a writer that's based here 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:16.280 in Athens, Georgia. Um. So not thanks for joining us. 0:08:16.320 --> 0:08:20.239 Tell us a little bit about who you are, Matt Pulver. 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:24.520 I'm a writer and UH researcher here in Athens, Georgia. 0:08:24.800 --> 0:08:26.840 I'm happy to have you on here. UM. I've loved 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:29.560 a lot of the work that you've done, both on 0:08:29.760 --> 0:08:32.480 you know, local pieces of history, but then particularly this 0:08:32.600 --> 0:08:36.160 piece UM you wrote in two Douz sixteen I believe 0:08:36.600 --> 0:08:40.880 UM Empire State of the South, UM, which talks a 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:45.319 little bit about neoliberalism, talks a lot about neoliberalism and 0:08:45.640 --> 0:08:47.640 the ways that it's impacted in Lennon hip Hop and 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:49.880 so usually on the show we look at specific pieces 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:54.120 of policy, housing policy, policing, labor, but this week we're 0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:56.400 gonna be looking at sort of a bundle of policy 0:08:56.480 --> 0:09:00.720 choices made under the common framework of neo liberals liberalism. 0:09:01.400 --> 0:09:03.520 And how have you seen that impact Atlanta and then 0:09:04.320 --> 0:09:08.480 UM consequently consequently UM Atlanta and hip Hop. But to 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:10.400 start out to make sure we and our listeners are 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:15.080 beginning from a similar foundation, let's talk about what neoliberalism 0:09:15.280 --> 0:09:18.959 is before discussing some of its manifestation manifestations in the 0:09:19.040 --> 0:09:23.840 city Atlanta. So, how would you define neoliberalism? Yeah, I mean, 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:28.880 I'm okay, so neo liberalism, what ner? What neoliberalism isn't 0:09:29.440 --> 0:09:34.360 uh for me? Is UM new liberalism, like liberal like 0:09:34.520 --> 0:09:36.400 the way in the States we talked about you know, 0:09:36.720 --> 0:09:39.440 the Democrats are liberals and and and the neoliberal would 0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:42.959 be just like a new liberal right the way to 0:09:43.000 --> 0:09:45.320 the segment the words you would just be like oh sure, 0:09:45.520 --> 0:09:49.079 like if you are new and you are to the left. 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:55.280 Actually more specific than that, confusingly, it's it's a conservative 0:09:56.800 --> 0:09:59.719 raft of policies. I mean it's it's basically, you know, 0:09:59.800 --> 0:10:04.640 it's hyper capitalism. Um. You know, it's liberal liberalism in 0:10:04.720 --> 0:10:06.959 the in the old school uh sense, the more sort 0:10:06.960 --> 0:10:08.920 of European sense of the word, where you know, the 0:10:09.000 --> 0:10:14.199 liberalization of of markets, um, making basically the extension of 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:19.719 of of capitalist logic two virtually anything and everything. So 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:24.360 typically how I think about it, you know, in the 0:10:24.480 --> 0:10:26.200 last thirty years, you can think of it as maybe 0:10:26.280 --> 0:10:30.920 like you know, Reaganomics or or Faturism, um that didn't 0:10:30.920 --> 0:10:35.439 gets adopted by uh liberals so called you know the 0:10:35.559 --> 0:10:39.560 Clinton I sort of democratic party, but it begins, I mean, 0:10:39.600 --> 0:10:43.440 it's a conservative project. It's you know, it's uh, it's 0:10:43.960 --> 0:10:48.079 the encroaching or or the sort of the devouring of 0:10:49.559 --> 0:10:53.000 the nation state and the functions of the nation state 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:57.280 by capital. So you know what does that mean. It 0:10:57.320 --> 0:11:00.600 means like you know, privatizing uh in fort rupture privately 0:11:00.800 --> 0:11:07.000 you know, water, privatizing education, public housing. UM, it's the 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:10.959 you know, ultimately what it is is sort of the 0:11:11.080 --> 0:11:16.959 erasure or at least the dinution of national sovereignty, uh 0:11:18.400 --> 0:11:23.280 at the behest of of you know, globalized capital um, 0:11:23.880 --> 0:11:26.240 you know, after neo liberalism. Mean you know, so so 0:11:26.320 --> 0:11:29.240 what you know does two things you know, sort of 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:31.280 inside the country. What it does is it it's it's 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:34.480 Welfairer form under Clinton. It's it's attempts to privatize education, 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:38.280 privatized infrastructure, privatized prisons, private size, privatize the military, all 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:44.000 these big uh huge federal outlays that that investors look at, 0:11:44.960 --> 0:11:47.120 uh all the you know the world overlook at and 0:11:47.280 --> 0:11:49.559 and just you know, lick their chops that you know, 0:11:49.640 --> 0:11:51.320 there's so much money to be made if you if 0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:55.000 you made every student a a customer basically, So you 0:11:55.080 --> 0:11:58.000 do that sort of internally and then externally sort of 0:11:58.040 --> 0:12:03.280 on the global scale, you now have uh multinational you 0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:09.280 know or even sort of post national sort of corporate 0:12:09.440 --> 0:12:13.800 entities and banks and flows a capital that uh that 0:12:15.600 --> 0:12:18.839 that override national sovereignty, you know, so then you have 0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:21.559 things like the NAFTA zone, and then you had you know, 0:12:22.240 --> 0:12:25.800 the Transpacific Partnership that was you know scuttled, but you know, 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:30.360 we'll probably come back in some form. Uh. But but yeah, 0:12:30.400 --> 0:12:34.120 but simply it's it's it's the shrinking of government, um 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:37.920 and the sort of the ultimate devouring of government. And 0:12:38.040 --> 0:12:44.480 it's and it's uh, you know, and it's actions by capital. 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:47.040 It's hyper capitalism to put it, to put it in 0:12:47.160 --> 0:12:51.840 a sort of a word. And so if yeah, totally, 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:53.960 totally And in the piece you talk a little bit 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:58.200 about how, for example, with like free enterprise zones, which 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:02.480 um Clinton I Democrats termed empowerment zones to kind of 0:13:02.559 --> 0:13:06.040 give it more by fire, sup by in and it 0:13:06.160 --> 0:13:09.400 sometimes has the sheen of like, oh, expanding liberties, giving 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:13.120 people more options, lifting people up by like giving more 0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:17.760 people access to markets, when really it's it seems like 0:13:17.840 --> 0:13:22.360 it's giving markets more control over human lives than um 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:27.199 than like enduring you know, uh, ensuring rights through how 0:13:27.400 --> 0:13:31.320 like strong strong forms of government, right, because I mean, 0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:36.959 you know, you know, capital is not beholden to you know, 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:40.319 say what you want about about the state of you know, 0:13:40.440 --> 0:13:45.280 American democracy and the ability to to alter its course. 0:13:45.640 --> 0:13:49.280 You know, citizens, Uh, there's still an avenue for that. 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:52.240 Capital doesn't doesn't have to give two ships about you 0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:55.520 and doesn't you know. So it's it's a it's an 0:13:55.679 --> 0:14:00.800 entirely different arrangement, um when you when you invite capital 0:14:00.840 --> 0:14:03.719 and to be uh more and more the sort of 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:07.079 the sole arbiter of people's fates. That's you know, where 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:10.360 they have no say whatsoever, you know in the end. Yeah, 0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:13.880 So in your in your PSU, you say that, um, 0:14:14.640 --> 0:14:18.319 neoliberal globalization doesn't make the many nations into one, but 0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:21.200 each into many, which I found really interesting because by 0:14:21.400 --> 0:14:23.800 the definition just gave it sounds like, oh, you know, 0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:28.040 it's with like NAFTA or like TPP like globalization. It's 0:14:28.120 --> 0:14:31.960 like you know, raising borders making us all uh citizens 0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:35.880 of this one global like community. So can you talk 0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:37.760 us a little bit about this idea of actually the 0:14:37.800 --> 0:14:42.200 way that neal liberal neoliberal globalization sort of creates more 0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:48.840 borders and because further fragments and segments society in certain ways. Yeah, yeah, 0:14:48.840 --> 0:14:50.680 I mean I think this is I feel like this 0:14:50.840 --> 0:14:55.760 is an under studied, under analyzed uh component of of 0:14:56.280 --> 0:14:59.480 neoliberal globalization because yeah, I mean I think we have 0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:02.560 this sort of you know John Lennon utopia is sort 0:15:02.560 --> 0:15:09.560 of in our minds. Uh yeah, yeah right. And it 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:11.840 does do that. I mean, it does connect you know 0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:16.280 that it does connect London to New York, to Rio 0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:23.680 to Beijing. There are nodes um of capital that do 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:29.400 exist in in in a large sort of global apparatus 0:15:29.600 --> 0:15:31.880 or or a network. You know that that is real 0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:37.480 um and and it and it does erase um the 0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:40.840 the power of borders in a lot of ways, especially 0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:44.000 for capital, not not not for people, um, ask anybody 0:15:44.040 --> 0:15:49.640 on the southern border of this country. But um. But 0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:53.320 it it either you might think of it as a 0:15:53.440 --> 0:15:57.480 sort of replacing or moving the those sort of earthtwhile 0:15:58.920 --> 0:16:04.560 national borders um into into the nation state itself. So 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:13.080 um it starts to bisects and segment um nation states 0:16:13.120 --> 0:16:17.280 that that used to be more whole or unitary um. 0:16:17.560 --> 0:16:24.240 While simultaneously connecting um nodes of of capital power metropolis 0:16:24.400 --> 0:16:28.200 is you know uh uh and and the various sort 0:16:28.200 --> 0:16:30.960 of capital flows and supply chains. You know it does. 0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:34.680 There is this connecting of the world, but then also 0:16:34.840 --> 0:16:40.960 this simultaneous um dividing of of you know, cities and 0:16:41.120 --> 0:16:45.160 and and cities from rural areas. Um. You know, there's 0:16:45.200 --> 0:16:47.560 a oh God, I forgive his name, but there's a 0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:52.080 there's a British thinker who or writer who has this 0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:55.800 conception of of the anywheres in the sumwhares then anywhere 0:16:55.880 --> 0:17:00.200 is are sort of the cosmopolitans um who you know 0:17:00.360 --> 0:17:03.720 might live in or near a big metropolis in the 0:17:03.840 --> 0:17:06.520 States or or anywhere across the world, and they are 0:17:06.560 --> 0:17:08.399 in a way more connected to each other than they 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:11.840 are to their um sort of countrymen, for lack of 0:17:11.880 --> 0:17:15.639 a better way of saying, fellow citizens. UM. And I 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:19.639 think that's uh, that's honestly, I think that's that's how 0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:24.000 we partially diagnosed the political crisis here in the States 0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:28.480 and in Britain, Brexit, uh, India, you know, all over 0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:31.800 the world, these you know, these anywhere's, these sort of 0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:38.920 people who um are um you know, engaged in you know, 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:42.679 the knowledge economy and can sort of could could easily 0:17:42.680 --> 0:17:48.959 plug themselves into London or Beijing or or Lapoor or someplace, 0:17:49.359 --> 0:17:53.200 and and the somewheeres who who are who are still 0:17:53.320 --> 0:17:57.880 rooted in place, um in anyway. And so in Atlanta, 0:17:58.000 --> 0:18:02.639 we we you know, we see m UM, especially during 0:18:02.680 --> 0:18:07.840 the nineties, we see a heightened a manifestation of this 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:11.520 where you see these UM borders that are that are 0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:18.840 increasingly determinative, you know, of of of someone's fates or 0:18:19.000 --> 0:18:23.080 people's fates UM inside the old nation state. If that, 0:18:23.200 --> 0:18:26.000 if that, if that makes any sense. Yeah, let's get 0:18:26.040 --> 0:18:29.720 into specifically how we see this manifest physically and like 0:18:29.800 --> 0:18:33.679 the geography of Atlanta, perhaps starting off with thinking around 0:18:34.119 --> 0:18:40.920 UM like housing policy. UM. So in the piece, you 0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:44.040 speak a little bit about back when they were preparing 0:18:44.119 --> 0:18:48.520 for the Olympic Games, uh, things they needed to make 0:18:48.560 --> 0:18:51.080 the city look nice for all those influx of people 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:54.000 that were coming, and what some of the impacts were 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:57.320 on what that then meant for the way in the 0:18:57.359 --> 0:19:03.320 city got redeveloped UM in that time. Yeah, I mean 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:06.959 it's Atlanta provides a really interesting way to look at, 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:11.200 you know, the twentieth century where you have in FDR 0:19:11.880 --> 0:19:14.800 comes to Atlanta to commemorate Techwood Homes right there in 0:19:14.840 --> 0:19:18.439 the in the middle of Atlanta at the first public 0:19:19.000 --> 0:19:23.200 housing for for Atlanta and white white Americans at the 0:19:23.280 --> 0:19:29.760 time UM and then in UM Techwood Homes becomes the 0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:35.520 first public housing uh project demolished by the City of 0:19:35.560 --> 0:19:39.920 Atlanta on their way to demolishing all all public housing 0:19:39.960 --> 0:19:41.840 stock in the city of Atlanta. Atlanta becomes the first 0:19:41.880 --> 0:19:48.680 major American city two demolish all housing UM to pursue 0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:53.199 uh what you know, to replace it with what they 0:19:53.280 --> 0:19:57.520 called a diversified real estate company. The head of the 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:03.200 U Atlanta Housing at Thorne talked about uh connecting the 0:20:03.240 --> 0:20:06.320 projects with quote the world of modern real estate, capital 0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:12.920 and finance, UM, privatizing thing basically or semi privatizing, right exactly, 0:20:12.960 --> 0:20:15.199 the idea of like with like empowerment. So I was like, oh, 0:20:15.280 --> 0:20:18.960 we're modernizing, you know they of Atlanta. It sounds so 0:20:19.200 --> 0:20:22.840 like like grand and like uplifting in a certain sense. 0:20:22.920 --> 0:20:26.479 But it's like, who was it lifting ultimately living capital? 0:20:26.600 --> 0:20:28.880 It's not it's not really like looking at the people 0:20:28.920 --> 0:20:32.880 are living in these homes, etcetera. Yeah, I mean, yeah, 0:20:32.960 --> 0:20:34.679 it's a it's a it's a pretty story that they 0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:37.160 can they can tell UM. But I mean if you look, 0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:38.920 if you look at where you know tech what Holmes 0:20:39.000 --> 0:20:42.440 used to be, Uh, it was right smack dab there 0:20:42.520 --> 0:20:45.960 next to Georgia Tech, right where Centennial Park is right 0:20:46.320 --> 0:20:50.399 against the edge of it. Uh that was just fantastically 0:20:52.240 --> 0:20:54.879 valuable real estate that was right in the middle of 0:20:55.200 --> 0:20:58.439 of their little Olympic stuff they wanted to do. Uh. 0:20:58.520 --> 0:21:02.320 It was also uh you know, it's where uh poor 0:21:02.359 --> 0:21:04.520 folks lived. And then they didn't They wanted to, you know, 0:21:04.600 --> 0:21:07.520 get the city all gussied up for for their little 0:21:07.560 --> 0:21:12.119 twirl on the international stage. So it served these you know, 0:21:12.200 --> 0:21:14.879 these multiple purposes. We get get rid of those uh 0:21:15.440 --> 0:21:19.399 that blight of of of the poor people who have 0:21:19.480 --> 0:21:23.120 been left behind by the city. Um, and also clear 0:21:23.200 --> 0:21:27.960 the way for for capital. Um also turns it turns 0:21:28.119 --> 0:21:32.439 each of those public housing residents into you know, they 0:21:32.560 --> 0:21:34.040 either get a voucher or just have to make it 0:21:34.119 --> 0:21:37.800 on their own. And it turns into uh profit bearing 0:21:38.400 --> 0:21:42.440 customers now and and and listen, no one saying that 0:21:42.920 --> 0:21:48.040 that the the twentieth century public housing model was perfect. Um. 0:21:48.240 --> 0:21:50.400 There were certainly things that probably you know, they needed 0:21:50.400 --> 0:21:56.080 to be done, but uh, you know it was. I 0:21:56.160 --> 0:21:57.800 think it's honestly its best to think of it. It's 0:21:57.800 --> 0:22:01.040 like urban renewal. It's the there's no less there's no 0:22:01.160 --> 0:22:07.760 less trauma in demolishing every single home of people in 0:22:07.840 --> 0:22:11.240 public housing in Atlanta. That's no less traumatic than than 0:22:11.320 --> 0:22:13.960 what happened in the you know, forties fifty sixties during 0:22:14.080 --> 0:22:19.200 urban renewal. Um. It's it was actually perhaps even on 0:22:19.240 --> 0:22:22.159 a larger scale. Yeah. I mean, you say what you 0:22:22.240 --> 0:22:25.000 want about public housing and like its quality and what 0:22:25.600 --> 0:22:29.520 um having these condensed pockets of poverty than me and 0:22:29.600 --> 0:22:32.080 for the quality of life people living there with regards 0:22:32.080 --> 0:22:35.760 to crime, etcetera, qualities of schools, But like displacing those 0:22:35.800 --> 0:22:38.400 folks and mass it's certainly gonna be traumatic, no matter 0:22:38.960 --> 0:22:43.520 no matter how well they're living where they are. For sure. Well, yeah, 0:22:43.520 --> 0:22:46.480 I mean because it's not it's not done. The residents 0:22:46.520 --> 0:22:50.080 are not the ones with agency. I mean, you know, 0:22:50.240 --> 0:22:53.120 it's it's it's one thing. If you know, it's it's 0:22:53.160 --> 0:22:57.119 a it's done from above, just like urban renewal was. 0:22:57.760 --> 0:23:00.280 You know, there have been renewal that that bill uh 0:23:00.920 --> 0:23:04.000 a lot of those projects. Um returned again and said, 0:23:04.040 --> 0:23:07.040 you know, like you know, we need this land over here. UM, 0:23:07.240 --> 0:23:09.120 so here, we're gonna put you all over We're gonna 0:23:09.160 --> 0:23:12.239 take your houses, uh, knock them down, burn them down, 0:23:12.280 --> 0:23:14.680 put you in this public housing over here. Fifty years later, 0:23:14.760 --> 0:23:16.359 Oh no, we need that land over there. We need 0:23:16.440 --> 0:23:18.560 that public housing land. Sorry about that. We're gonna push 0:23:18.560 --> 0:23:20.480 you out, you know, and now give you Section A 0:23:20.600 --> 0:23:24.479 vouchers or whatever, and uh, good fucking luck. Like they did. 0:23:24.560 --> 0:23:27.920 They didn't, they didn't track anybody they you know, for years. 0:23:27.960 --> 0:23:30.960 I used to I talked to some researcher at Georgia 0:23:31.000 --> 0:23:32.920 State back when I was writing this and you know, 0:23:33.000 --> 0:23:37.879 and asked, does anybody know where those people ended up? No, 0:23:38.720 --> 0:23:41.600 because that wasn't that wasn't even an afterthought. They don't care. 0:23:42.080 --> 0:23:44.560 They needed the length and then and they needed those 0:23:44.600 --> 0:23:48.080 folks out of the way until they did it, you know, period. 0:23:48.119 --> 0:23:56.399 That that's what happened. So how do we see the 0:23:56.440 --> 0:24:01.840 impacts of particularly neo liberal housing policy manifest like in 0:24:02.040 --> 0:24:05.800 hip hop music from Atlanta as particularly in the PC 0:24:05.880 --> 0:24:08.200 speak about a number of music videos that, like in 0:24:08.320 --> 0:24:11.160 the visuals that are presented kind of tell the tell 0:24:11.320 --> 0:24:14.960 the story of of um of a lot of the 0:24:15.000 --> 0:24:18.359 impacts of policies such as these. Yeah, I mean, you 0:24:18.440 --> 0:24:21.600 know you'll see it in in in visuals um where 0:24:21.680 --> 0:24:26.000 you have, you know, because when you what you end 0:24:26.080 --> 0:24:28.800 up with are these little, you know, smaller and smaller 0:24:28.880 --> 0:24:33.320 sort of pockets of you know, especially as the sort 0:24:33.359 --> 0:24:37.199 of the wealthy infill has happened in cities like Atlanta, 0:24:37.240 --> 0:24:40.720 where everybody's come back in the upperly mobile, you know, 0:24:40.920 --> 0:24:44.120 folks have come back in and throwing their weight around. 0:24:44.960 --> 0:24:47.200 You have these you know, smaller and smaller pockets of 0:24:47.280 --> 0:24:51.560 intense wealth and intense poverty, and they're sort of, you know, 0:24:51.840 --> 0:24:55.280 very close to each other. It's it's very um uh 0:24:56.920 --> 0:25:02.560 a sort of a chaotic patch work of you know 0:25:02.680 --> 0:25:05.879 of of and you see it also in places like Detroit. Um. 0:25:06.240 --> 0:25:11.000 I think Danny Brown, Detroit rapper uh has wrapped about this. Um. 0:25:11.680 --> 0:25:13.439