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Speaker 1: I started to realize that not being an expert isn't

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Speaker 1: a liability, it's a real gift.

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Speaker 2: If we don't know something about ourselves at this point

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Speaker 2: in our life, it's probably because it's uncomfortable to know.

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Speaker 1: If you can die before you die, then you can

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Speaker 1: really live.

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Speaker 2: There's a wisdom at death's door.

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Speaker 1: I thought I was insane.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I didn't know what to do because there

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Speaker 2: was no internet.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, man, I'm like, I feel like everything

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Speaker 1: is hard. Hey, y'all, my name is Kat. I'm a

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Speaker 1: human first and a licensed therapist second. And right now

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Speaker 1: I'm inviting you into conversations that I hope encourage you

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Speaker 1: to become more curious and less judgmental about yourself, others,

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Speaker 1: and the world around you. Welcome to you Need Therapy.

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Speaker 1: Hi guys, and welcome to the latest episode of Unied

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Speaker 1: Therapy podcast. My name is Kat. I'm so glad you're here,

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Speaker 1: especially especially today. This is This is gonna be a

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Speaker 1: good one. So if you're wondering about our four Horsemen series,

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Speaker 1: don't worry. I have not forgot about it. It is coming.

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Speaker 1: The third part will be coming out next Monday. But

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Speaker 1: I wanted to share this episode with you as soon

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Speaker 1: as possible, because it was just that good and I

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Speaker 1: didn't want to keep it to myself any longer. So

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Speaker 1: our guest is Laura Tremaine, and she's an OG blogger.

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Speaker 1: Like OG, she was in the beginnings of blogging, when

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Speaker 1: blogging was like an actual blog, and she has turned

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Speaker 1: into an author who writes about friendship, anxiety, motherhood, and marriage.

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Speaker 1: And she's about to release a new book called The

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Speaker 1: Life Council, all about friendship, which we can all relate to.

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Speaker 1: Right hopefully we all have friendships, or we're looking for friendships,

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Speaker 1: or we want to improve our friendships. And I seriously

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Speaker 1: loved getting to talk to Laura. It was such a

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Speaker 1: refreshing conversation. I learned so much. I learned so much

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Speaker 1: from this book before I even got to talk to her,

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Speaker 1: so many questions, and it was just really cool to

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Speaker 1: see her perspective on friendship in what she's learned through

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Speaker 1: the ups and the downs, not just one or the

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Speaker 1: other of her own relationships. So if you want to

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Speaker 1: hear more or get more of Laura after this conversation,

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Speaker 1: you can find her on Instagram Laura dot Tremaine. I

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Speaker 1: will put all of the links to her stuff in

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Speaker 1: the show notes, so you can just click it and

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Speaker 1: find her. And if you want your own copy of

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Speaker 1: The Life Counsel, which I highly recommend, you can pre

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Speaker 1: order it now or you can get your own copy

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Speaker 1: on April fourth. So I hope you enjoyed the conversation

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Speaker 1: I had with Laura as much as I enjoyed it.

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Speaker 1: And let's not keep you waiting any longer. Here is

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Speaker 1: my conversation with Laura Tremaine. All Right, guys, welcome back.

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Speaker 1: I am super excited, and I'm also trying to look

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Speaker 1: for a new way to say super excited because I

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Speaker 1: say it so often. But I am excited about this

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Speaker 1: week's guest. I just learned the right pronunciation of her name.

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Speaker 1: Actually I didn't ask you about your last name, but

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Speaker 1: we're gonna see if I get it right, because and

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Speaker 1: you guys might be like, why would you have to

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Speaker 1: ask that? But if you ever have met somebody named

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Speaker 1: lau r A, that's how you spell it right. Yes, okay,

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Speaker 1: if you ever meet somebody named Laura, you really should

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Speaker 1: ask them if they go by Laura or Laura because

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Speaker 1: a lot of times it's Laura and you would think

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Speaker 1: it's Laura. I know that because somebody in my life's

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Speaker 1: named that, so I asked, and it's Laura. So welcome

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Speaker 1: Laura Tremaine. I pronounced the last name right.

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Speaker 2: Yes, you did it perfect, and actually thank you for

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Speaker 2: asking about the first name. I don't even think about

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Speaker 2: it that much anymore, but so many people in my life,

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Speaker 2: including my husband, pronounce it wrong.

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Speaker 1: That is so wild to me. I think maybe I

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Speaker 1: also always want to get somebody's name right because my

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Speaker 1: first name is Catherine or Kat and so you can't

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Speaker 1: really pronounce that wrong. But my last name is Defada,

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Speaker 1: and it rarely is pronounced correctly. It's usually Defata, which

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Speaker 1: brings up a whole nother realm of childhood trauma for me.

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Speaker 1: So I just like to get things right. So anyway, welcome.

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Speaker 1: I'm excited you're here.

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Speaker 2: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

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Speaker 1: So Laura has written a new book called The Life Council,

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Speaker 1: and I read the book. I loved it, and I

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Speaker 1: will be honest. I went into this book being like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I'll read this so I can help other people. And

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Speaker 1: as I started reading it, it was in the very beginning,

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Speaker 1: we'll get to this I'm kind of getting ahead of myself.

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Speaker 1: In the very beginning, there's something that I read that

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, you are reading this

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Speaker 1: book for yourself right now, and you can also read

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Speaker 1: it to gain knowledge to help other people. But there's

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Speaker 1: part that really hit me, and it seemed kind of minuscule,

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Speaker 1: but to me it made a really big deal. So

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Speaker 1: I want to talk all about that. I'm very excited

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Speaker 1: about it. But before I ask all my burning questions,

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Speaker 1: can you give us like a cliffs note version of

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Speaker 1: kind of like who you are and what led you

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Speaker 1: to this specific book.

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Speaker 2: Sure, my name's Laura Trevade. As established, we have that cleared.

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Speaker 2: I'm an author, now I'm a podcaster. I'm a mom.

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Speaker 2: I live in Los Angeles and have lived here for

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Speaker 2: twenty three years almost. But I grew up in a

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Speaker 2: really small town in Oklahoma, and so growing up in

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Speaker 2: a small town and now living in one of the

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Speaker 2: largest cities on the globe, those two things like really

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Speaker 2: inform a lot of what I talk about. And I

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Speaker 2: worked in reality TV when I first moved to LA

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Speaker 2: straight out of college. I worked in film and television

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Speaker 2: production for a long time, and then when I started

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Speaker 2: my family. It was like the height of mommy blogging era.

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Speaker 2: And I had moved to Los Angeles to become a writer.

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Speaker 2: That's what I always wanted to do. But then, you know,

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Speaker 2: I got sidetracked into production and writing jobs and the

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Speaker 2: entertainment industry are really hard to come by, and so

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Speaker 2: I had not actually been a writer for the whole

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Speaker 2: of my twenties. So now here I was with like

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Speaker 2: a baby on my lap, and I started a mommy

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Speaker 2: blog and I loved it. I loved blogging. It opened

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Speaker 2: so many doors for me. I could just like, we

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Speaker 2: could do a whole show just about how I feel

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Speaker 2: like women changed the Internet and changed the world in

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Speaker 2: that time. But you know, the Internet started to change,

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Speaker 2: social media became a bigger deal, Blogging started to fade out,

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Speaker 2: and so then I moved to podcasting, which was also

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Speaker 2: becoming really popular. And you know, it was also very

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Speaker 2: active on social media. In all of those areas, like

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Speaker 2: first blogging, then social media, then podcasting, the topic of

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Speaker 2: friendship came up all the time. Now partially it came

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Speaker 2: up because I was writing about being lonely. So one

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Speaker 2: of the things that I wrote about in my earliest

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Speaker 2: blogging days was once I had left film and television

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Speaker 2: and was home with a baby. I went through a

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Speaker 2: really lonely time period. I felt like I didn't have

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Speaker 2: any friends here in LA and this like huge, big city.

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Speaker 2: I did everything I could to make friends and it

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Speaker 2: just fell flat. Like I was really lonely, and I

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Speaker 2: was writing about that a little bit on the internet.

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Speaker 2: So you know, it's not a coincidence. I guess that

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Speaker 2: this friendship topic kept coming up, but like with readers

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Speaker 2: and then eventually listeners and followers on social like it

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Speaker 2: just kept coming up that adult friendship was so much

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Speaker 2: harder than we expected, and that it was a thing

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Speaker 2: people didn't talk about honestly. You know, people got really

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Speaker 2: honest about the work of marriage or the struggles of parenthood.

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Speaker 2: Like there's things that we talk about candidly now that

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Speaker 2: we didn't used to. Friendship is not one of them.

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Speaker 2: Like people don't talk about friendship because because it feels like, well,

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Speaker 2: friendship is sort of an unending resource. There's all these

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Speaker 2: people we could be friends with or not, or it

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Speaker 2: doesn't seem like a thing that has to have all

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Speaker 2: this intention or work to it, like theoretically, but that

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Speaker 2: is not how it's been in my adulthood, like, friendship

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Speaker 2: has been a huge, huge area that I've had to

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Speaker 2: work on and go through hard times with and then

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Speaker 2: also enjoy because I have wonderful, amazing friends in my life.

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Speaker 2: And so I just like, as I was talking about

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Speaker 2: it online, I wrote my first book about connection with

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Speaker 2: other people, and then this book felt like the next

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Speaker 2: natural step. My first book was called Share Your Stuff.

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Speaker 2: I'll go first, was about sharing yourself in order to

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Speaker 2: connect with others, and then this felt like the next

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Speaker 2: natural thing. The Life Counsel, which was written as a

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Speaker 2: way to sort of think about the friendships in your

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Speaker 2: life and you know, sort of elevate these relationships instead

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Speaker 2: of taking them for granted or feeling the lack or

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Speaker 2: I really wanted to talk about so many angles of friendship.

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Speaker 2: So here we are with the Life Counsel.

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Speaker 1: Well, and you did. There's so so many Like I

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Speaker 1: kept being like, oh, this is good, and then like

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Speaker 1: I turned the page and there's another paragraph. I'm like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is another thing that comes up. And this is

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Speaker 1: another thing that comes up. And as you're talking just now,

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Speaker 1: I was kind of thinking about, like, well, why is

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Speaker 1: it easy to talk about the struggles in this area,

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Speaker 1: in this area, in this area, and specifically like romantic partners,

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Speaker 1: like whether it's a lack of that or there are

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Speaker 1: struggles in the marriage. Yeah, people aren't then talking about

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Speaker 1: like I don't have friends, and it almost in my head.

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Speaker 1: I was like, I wonder why that is. And the

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Speaker 1: first thing that popped up is, well, that might be embarrassing,

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Speaker 1: which is tied to shame of like there's shame in

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Speaker 1: that because you said, like there's like an abundance, like

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Speaker 1: there's so many people and you can have so many friends.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you're only looking for one partner, and your

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Speaker 1: partner's only looking for one partner. But when it comes

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Speaker 1: to friends, you shouldn't have a problem with that because

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Speaker 1: people can have as many as they want. And then

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Speaker 1: why wouldn't you be in a circle. And I always

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Speaker 1: think about how weird it is that you grow up

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Speaker 1: and you have automatic friends. It's like your parents' kids

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Speaker 1: or your cousins, and then the people in your class,

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Speaker 1: and then the people on your soccer team, and then

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Speaker 1: college it's like the people in the club that you're

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Speaker 1: part of or the sorority that you're in, and then

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Speaker 1: you grow up and then I guess sometimes it's like

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Speaker 1: the people at work, But then in the pandemic it

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Speaker 1: was like, well, you're at home by yourself, and so

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Speaker 1: you go through this like, well, you have these automatic

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Speaker 1: plugs of friends, and then as an adult, we don't

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Speaker 1: have that as much unless we're going out and doing

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Speaker 1: all these things. But it's not as easy. And the

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Speaker 1: other struggle I see is I might start here and

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Speaker 1: I have these automatic friends, but what happens when I

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Speaker 1: grow and I change and I'm morph and I learn

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Speaker 1: more about who I am and I take off my masks.

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Speaker 1: But then like, should I still be friends with these

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Speaker 1: people because I met them when I was three and

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Speaker 1: that's like such a nice story, and like those people

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Speaker 1: might not I might not even like them. I think

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Speaker 1: we're gonna get to that. I'm getting ahead of myself,

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Speaker 1: but I want to go backwards. It's because in the

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Speaker 1: beginning of the book, or more towards the beginning, do

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Speaker 1: you have these archetypes of the types of friends, and

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Speaker 1: then you had these philosophies. So I want you to

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Speaker 1: tell us what the philosophies are and how you came

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Speaker 1: up with yours, Like what is a friendship philosophy, and

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Speaker 1: how did you develop the ones that are in the book,

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Speaker 1: Like where did those come from?

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Speaker 2: I made them up completely, But it was after thinking

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Speaker 2: about this, like I said, for a decade. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I didn't just you know, it wasn't a gimmick for

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Speaker 2: the book. It was like I had to really, as

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Speaker 2: I was working on my own friendships, think about what

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Speaker 2: mattered here. And for me, it's easier to work from

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Speaker 2: a sort of an established set of rules, almost like

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Speaker 2: these are my friendship rules. And that was helpful for me.

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Speaker 2: It was it's this whole thing, the whole book is

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Speaker 2: helpful for personalities that like a framework. You know, some

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Speaker 2: people don't think like this, their brain doesn't work like this.

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Speaker 2: But for me, when I felt like I was swimming

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Speaker 2: in the sea of loneliness, when I wasn't really sure

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Speaker 2: how to make this work, because like you said, I

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Speaker 2: had friendships served up to me on a silver platter

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Speaker 2: when I was growing up. I grew up in this

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Speaker 2: small town. Everybody knows everybody. I went to college. I

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Speaker 2: was in a sorority, you know. I had family friends

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Speaker 2: and summer camp friends, and I had all these different

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Speaker 2: areas where I didn't have to try very hard because

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Speaker 2: we were part of some kind of institution or community

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Speaker 2: already that just sort of forced you together. So when

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Speaker 2: you're at school or at church or whatever your life

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Speaker 2: looks like, and you're with people for chunks of time

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Speaker 2: every single day or every single week, you're sort of

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Speaker 2: just friends by proximity. It can be about connection, but

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Speaker 2: it can also just be like, well, we're all here

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Speaker 2: all the time together, like we know each other. And

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Speaker 2: so when I got to adulthood and I moved to

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Speaker 2: Los Angeles and didn't know anybody when I moved here,

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Speaker 2: I had never had to like work that muscle. I

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Speaker 2: had never had to be like can we be friends?

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Speaker 2: Like are we friends?

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Speaker 1: Like?

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Speaker 2: I had never done the weird like friendship, dating, dance

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Speaker 2: kind of thing. I didn't even know you had to

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Speaker 2: do it. I had only experienced, like your friends with

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Speaker 2: the people around you. And so when I found myself

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Speaker 2: without a consistent people around me, I was in a

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Speaker 2: career that changed every few months, Like I'd work on

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Speaker 2: a TV show for a few months and then it

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Speaker 2: would change and be a different show. So there was

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Speaker 2: no like structure like that I had had previously in

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Speaker 2: my life, and now in you know twenty twenty three

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Speaker 2: where a lot of people work from home, where jobs

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Speaker 2: and careers look really untraditional. In some ways, people are

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Speaker 2: feeling the same thing of like, oh, you have to

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Speaker 2: like ask people to be friends. I mean you have

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Speaker 2: to like make an effort, you have to make plans,

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Speaker 2: you have to check in on one another, you have

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Speaker 2: to do these things. That becomes my very first friendship philosophy,

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Speaker 2: which is friendship is a to do, which is something

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Speaker 2: I had to learn that it's chure, feel like or

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Speaker 2: task or all these have like negative connotations to them,

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Speaker 2: but it's actually a thing for me on my to

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Speaker 2: do list. I still handwrite my to do list every day,

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Speaker 2: and I have a list of things I need to

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Speaker 2: do for work. I have a list of things I

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Speaker 2: need to do in my personal life. I'm a mom,

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Speaker 2: so you know, personal life stuff. And then I have

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Speaker 2: a list for relationship or connection and it's like, remember

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Speaker 2: to check in with Julie, Remember Ashley's birthday is coming up,

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Speaker 2: you know, text someone back, call someone that I haven't

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Speaker 2: talked to in a while, like all these different things.

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Speaker 2: Because if I do not put those things on a

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Speaker 2: literal to do list, they won't get done.

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Speaker 1: That was really helpful to me because I share I

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Speaker 1: think a similar part of personality where I just forget

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Speaker 1: I'm personally not very organized in my mind or in

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Speaker 1: my life and lifestyle. And so I used to think

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Speaker 1: it was this like, oh, like this flaw in me

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Speaker 1: where I'm like, you didn't remember that, or you can't

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Speaker 1: remember for that, or why don't you remember so and

290
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Speaker 1: so saying that she was flying out to this place

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Speaker 1: on Wednesday at this time, when she was getting in

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Speaker 1: it this time, and everybody else remembers it, like why

293
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Speaker 1: didn't you check in with that person to see how

294
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Speaker 1: their flight went? Why didn't you check in with that

295
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Speaker 1: person after their little kid had this appointment? And then

296
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Speaker 1: I realized I always say like, I'm not very thoughtful.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if that's what it is, though, No,

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Speaker 1: I think it's that's not what it is. Being thoughtful

299
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Speaker 1: takes a little bit of effort for me, like it

300
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Speaker 1: is a to do, Like I want to be thoughtful,

301
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Speaker 1: and I do think about people, but I don't think

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Speaker 1: in that way. My brain isn't organized that way. So

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Speaker 1: when I was reading that, I was like, oh, this

304
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Speaker 1: is a thing that like a lot of people probably

305
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Speaker 1: have to do, and it doesn't have to be a

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Speaker 1: bad thing. It's just this is how my brain works.

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Speaker 1: So if I want to show up in this way,

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Speaker 1: then you're gonna have to do this thing right.

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Speaker 2: Like I can tell that you care about the people

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Speaker 2: in your life. You care about your friends, you hold

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Speaker 2: them in your heart, but it's not translating to action

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Speaker 2: sometimes and you're calling that being thoughtless, but that's not thoughtless.

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Speaker 2: You just need like a device to sort of translate

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Speaker 2: what's in your heart and how you feel for them

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Speaker 2: into some kind of an action. And I did too.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think that there's a tinge of shame

317
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Speaker 2: here and you're even sharing it about yourself that we

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Speaker 2: expect this to be natural. If you're not naturally good

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Speaker 2: at this, then you're a bad person. You know. People

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Speaker 2: feel this way also about parenthood or whatever. If you're

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Speaker 2: not naturally nurturing. Well, a lot of people are not

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Speaker 2: naturally nurturing. They have to teach themselves to translate how

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Speaker 2: they feel to their little baby. They have to teach themselves.

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Speaker 2: The same is true in friendship or in any kind

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Speaker 2: of relationship. And so I wanted to speak to that

326
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Speaker 2: because it isn't natural to me, I am very easily distracted.

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Speaker 2: I can go weeks and just be in the busyness

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Speaker 2: of my life like head down, I'm working, i'm momming,

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Speaker 2: I'm doing my life, and I'll look up and be like, well,

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Speaker 2: I haven't even I haven't talked to my friends and

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Speaker 2: live weeks and sometimes that's just a season, but sometimes

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Speaker 2: that's not showing them that I care. And I actually

333
00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:10,439
Speaker 2: went through friendship struggles that taught me this philosophy, like

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Speaker 2: friendship is it to do? I had friends basically say

335
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Speaker 2: to me like, you have to text me back? Yeah,

336
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Speaker 2: like ooh, this is what relationship is.

337
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Speaker 1: Yeah. And I always used to say, this is coming

338
00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:23,360
Speaker 1: up for me right now. I didn't even think about

339
00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:26,040
Speaker 1: this before. I don't like talking on the phone, like

340
00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:30,800
Speaker 1: I hate it, hate it. I feel trapped. I literally

341
00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:34,040
Speaker 1: can't wear earpod things air pods because they don't stand

342
00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:35,640
Speaker 1: my ears. So I can't be hands free and doing

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Speaker 1: something else. I'm connected to something. I don't like talking

344
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Speaker 1: on the phone. I used to say, oh, that's just me,

345
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Speaker 1: and like, so I'm not gonna call you, and so

346
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Speaker 1: I have all of these friends from that. I really

347
00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:49,920
Speaker 1: do love that. I just don't live near them anymore,

348
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Speaker 1: whether it's from college or they moved away or whatever,

349
00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:57,080
Speaker 1: and those relationships so much space gets in them. Not

350
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Speaker 1: because I like literally don't care about what they're doing,

351
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Speaker 1: but I don't like talking on the phone, so I

352
00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:06,400
Speaker 1: just don't do it. I will ignore phone calls, which

353
00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:09,000
Speaker 1: is my own thing. But what I've noticed with one

354
00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:12,680
Speaker 1: specific friend is if I schedule a phone call, hey

355
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Speaker 1: I'm free this time, I think also it happened is

356
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Speaker 1: something with like when I have things to do, I

357
00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:20,119
Speaker 1: don't want to be interrupted, and like how long is

358
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Speaker 1: this phone call gonna take? My friend i'n't talked to

359
00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,359
Speaker 1: her in three months. But anyway, but when I schedule

360
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Speaker 1: these phone calls, then I will do them. And it's

361
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Speaker 1: worked to schedule them, and it's worked for me to

362
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Speaker 1: be on them. But I never regret a long phone

363
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Speaker 1: call with a good friend. I don't think I've ever

364
00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:36,560
Speaker 1: regretted that. And so I'm feeling that right now as

365
00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:39,280
Speaker 1: I instead of making an excuse of like, well, I

366
00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:41,879
Speaker 1: just don't like talking on the phone, friendship is work,

367
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Speaker 1: and if I want to maintain these friendships, I need

368
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Speaker 1: to acknowledge that those parts of me. It kind of

369
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Speaker 1: reminds me when when people are like, well, I'm just honest,

370
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Speaker 1: and so I'm just gonna say whatever, and I'm like, well,

371
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Speaker 1: that's not an excuse for being mean. So it's not

372
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Speaker 1: an excuse for not keeping in touch with people. I

373
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Speaker 1: just have to put in the work.

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Speaker 2: Two things about that. One is you could find a

375
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Speaker 2: way that does work better for you, Like if you

376
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Speaker 2: would prefer to do zoom or FaceTime, or I use

377
00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:09,080
Speaker 2: an app with my friends called Voxer that I love

378
00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:11,520
Speaker 2: a ton. It's a voice messaging app and you go

379
00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:14,720
Speaker 2: back and forth. So yeah, if you could find one

380
00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:16,919
Speaker 2: of these ways that works better for you, because I

381
00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:20,040
Speaker 2: don't think you have to like completely diuting yourself to

382
00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:23,960
Speaker 2: keep up your relationships, So find a way that works

383
00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:27,440
Speaker 2: better for you, or you know, break it down into

384
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Speaker 2: chunks so it's not a three hour phone call every time,

385
00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:32,240
Speaker 2: Like you know, you're just gonna you have thirty minutes,

386
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Speaker 2: so let's do as much as we can in thirty

387
00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:37,960
Speaker 2: minutes to catch up or whatever. Or you can accept

388
00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,359
Speaker 2: that's not a friendship that you're going to be able

389
00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:44,000
Speaker 2: to foster because that the only way she communicates is

390
00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:45,920
Speaker 2: phone calls or whatever. I mean, you really have to

391
00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:49,040
Speaker 2: weigh those out. But for me, I bought in for

392
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Speaker 2: a while. There's like this sort of idea online of

393
00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:55,840
Speaker 2: like you don't have to be available to everyone, You

394
00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,359
Speaker 2: don't have to text everyone back. The phone is not

395
00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:01,520
Speaker 2: the boss of you if you're an introvert, or your

396
00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:04,640
Speaker 2: or your anxiety kicks up, or all these different things.

397
00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:06,760
Speaker 2: And I bought into that as like a self care

398
00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:09,600
Speaker 2: thing for a long time, Like it's self care to

399
00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:12,600
Speaker 2: not have to text everyone back, and that's fine. I

400
00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:14,800
Speaker 2: was free to do that. You know what, that also

401
00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:16,119
Speaker 2: did hurt my friendships.

402
00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:19,080
Speaker 1: Uh amen, I am so glad you said that.

403
00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:21,800
Speaker 2: And I'm not poo pooing the self care idea. There's

404
00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:24,360
Speaker 2: a lot of good that comes out of those conversations

405
00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:27,160
Speaker 2: that you know, women didn't have for centuries and now

406
00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:29,800
Speaker 2: we're able to speak like that. But there is a

407
00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:33,359
Speaker 2: tipping point of okay, but are we putting up so

408
00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:37,400
Speaker 2: many boundaries that now we're lonely because we're protecting ourselves

409
00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:37,840
Speaker 2: too much.

410
00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:41,679
Speaker 1: It goes from like you have no boundaries to you

411
00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:44,760
Speaker 1: have these rigid boundaries, and we need to have like

412
00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:48,639
Speaker 1: have boundaries, but have flexibility. And I think in a

413
00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:51,119
Speaker 1: lot of things that are coming up lately in the

414
00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:53,439
Speaker 1: world is we have to like swing the pendulum all

415
00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:55,560
Speaker 1: the way to one side to get somebody to listen.

416
00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:59,119
Speaker 1: So we have to go extreme to like no is

417
00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:02,920
Speaker 1: a is a complete sentence and ignore your like kind

418
00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:05,119
Speaker 1: of what you're saying. But then we need to realize,

419
00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:07,840
Speaker 1: like sometimes people need to hear more than just no,

420
00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,879
Speaker 1: And yeah, you can have the ability to say I

421
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,679
Speaker 1: don't have to pick up that phone call, but also

422
00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:19,080
Speaker 1: ask yourself some questions like am I avoiding? Am I

423
00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:22,879
Speaker 1: being too rigid? All of that. So I'm so glad

424
00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:23,480
Speaker 1: that you said that.

425
00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:26,480
Speaker 2: And that's just the first friendship philosophy. Ye're four more.

426
00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:28,320
Speaker 1: Yes, Okay, go to the next one because I could

427
00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:29,160
Speaker 1: stay on that for an hour.

428
00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:33,399
Speaker 2: The next one is believe the best. And I'm going

429
00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:36,160
Speaker 2: to guess in your practice that you have to talk

430
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,159
Speaker 2: around this idea a lot. It is so easy, in

431
00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:42,040
Speaker 2: our own insecurities or with our own baggage or whatever,

432
00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:46,520
Speaker 2: to tell ourselves these stories of like, well, they secretly

433
00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:50,720
Speaker 2: don't like me, they're ghosting me, they're being mean, they're

434
00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:53,679
Speaker 2: trying to embarrass me in front of other people at

435
00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:56,159
Speaker 2: you know, girls' night out or whatever we tell ourselves

436
00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:58,520
Speaker 2: all these stories. I'm not saying that our stories are

437
00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:01,480
Speaker 2: one hundred percent false. They're oftentimes they are rooted in something,

438
00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,760
Speaker 2: and we need to listen to our own instincts. And

439
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:08,920
Speaker 2: also we have to start in our friendships with believing

440
00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:12,080
Speaker 2: the best of one another. I have to believe that

441
00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:14,560
Speaker 2: you were not trying to hurt my feelings. Now, maybe

442
00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:16,280
Speaker 2: you did hurt my feelings and we still need to

443
00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:19,040
Speaker 2: talk about it, but I have to start that conversation

444
00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:21,480
Speaker 2: from a place of believing that you didn't mean to

445
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,080
Speaker 2: that you're not trying to hurt me, that you're a

446
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,439
Speaker 2: good person, you know, and we just had a weird moment.

447
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:30,439
Speaker 2: I need to believe the best about you because I

448
00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,439
Speaker 2: really need you to believe the best about me, because

449
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:35,199
Speaker 2: I am also going to hurt your feelings or I

450
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:37,120
Speaker 2: am going to forget to text you back for two

451
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,560
Speaker 2: months or whatever I'm going to do. And even if

452
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:43,359
Speaker 2: we have to address whatever happened in our friendship, we

453
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:45,840
Speaker 2: have to start from this believing the best of one another.

454
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:48,800
Speaker 2: My own anxieties and insecurities get in the way of

455
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:50,760
Speaker 2: that because I start to think, well, I don't believe

456
00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:52,920
Speaker 2: the best of other people. They're not trying as hard

457
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,639
Speaker 2: as they could. They are being mean to me, like whatever,

458
00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:58,960
Speaker 2: all these different things that I say, and that takes

459
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,840
Speaker 2: the friendship. It's not assuming the best of one another

460
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:04,679
Speaker 2: is not helping our relationship.

461
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,440
Speaker 1: So it's like poison I talk about I do talk

462
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:10,840
Speaker 1: about that a lot, the assumption of positive intent of

463
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,399
Speaker 1: and sometimes it's true sometimes people don't have positive intent,

464
00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:16,600
Speaker 1: and there's time and a place to have that conversation.

465
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:19,720
Speaker 1: But with the people that we're in close relationships with

466
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 1: or that we're beginning or creating close relationships, wires get crossed.

467
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:27,359
Speaker 1: And if I take the lens that I have seen

468
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,280
Speaker 1: the world through and my experiences and my beliefs about myself,

469
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:34,840
Speaker 1: whether they're positive or negative, and I assume that like

470
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,640
Speaker 1: the negative parts, and I assume that everybody's looking through

471
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:42,280
Speaker 1: that same lens, I can really really really really mess

472
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 1: up a hard conversation or a confrontation which can be

473
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:52,199
Speaker 1: very healthy if we don't start that conversation like what

474
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:54,600
Speaker 1: you're saying, like believing the best, Like, hey, my feelings

475
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:59,200
Speaker 1: were hurt and I know that that probably wasn't your intention,

476
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 1: and so talk to me about what you said. So

477
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,159
Speaker 1: I can understand where our wires got crossed because in

478
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,240
Speaker 1: my history, this is what that meant, and this is

479
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:08,760
Speaker 1: the story that I ended up making up in my head.

480
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 1: And I don't think that story is true. Like that

481
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:13,639
Speaker 1: is so important, so important.

482
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,080
Speaker 2: I mean, we can sometimes we learn that people don't

483
00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,960
Speaker 2: have the best of intentions. Unfortunately, sometimes we do learn that.

484
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,720
Speaker 2: But I want to start from a place of believing

485
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:25,480
Speaker 2: the best and then maybe occasionally you find out information

486
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,280
Speaker 2: that that's not true. I'd rather it go that direction

487
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 2: than starting believing the worst. And they have to constantly

488
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 2: prove to me that they have good intentions.

489
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:34,119
Speaker 1: And defend them.

490
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 2: That's not Yeah, that's not the right dynamic.

491
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't want to be friends with

492
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 1: somebody who I have to constantly defend myself to exactly.

493
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 2: So that's the second friendship philosophy. The third one is

494
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:58,040
Speaker 2: just go. This is especially apt post pandemic life, where

495
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:03,439
Speaker 2: we have all trained ourselves to go to someone's birthday dinner,

496
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 2: to someone's wedding that is sort of on an annoying weekend,

497
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 2: to not go to their little ceremony about their work promotion.

498
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,400
Speaker 2: I don't know, there's so many opportunities for us to go.

499
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:19,440
Speaker 2: And this goes back a little bit to the self

500
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,680
Speaker 2: care conversation. We have given ourselves all kinds of permission

501
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:25,199
Speaker 2: to not go, like, oh I have to get my

502
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,440
Speaker 2: eight hours of sleep. Oh I have to like really

503
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:33,200
Speaker 2: stick within my very exact budget. I am an introvert,

504
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,880
Speaker 2: so I can't expend that much energy. Like all these

505
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:39,159
Speaker 2: ways that the self care movement has taught us to

506
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:44,439
Speaker 2: not go has deeply affected our communities and our culture

507
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,439
Speaker 2: and our relationships. And sometimes I don't know where this

508
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 2: got lost in the shuffle, part of its pandemic, part

509
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,959
Speaker 2: of its internet. Sometimes you just have to go. You

510
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 2: are not in the mood to go to this birthday dinner,

511
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,200
Speaker 2: you don't like the restaurant, you don't like the person's husband,

512
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 2: you are tired, it's their birthday, and you need to

513
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 2: suck it up and go. This is what relationship is,

514
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 2: and not at the total expense of yourself all the time.

515
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 2: But it's the same conversation as earlier of like the

516
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:13,639
Speaker 2: pendulum has swung too far to be like we're just

517
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 2: missing each other's lives.

518
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,399
Speaker 1: I have this conversation kind of often with clients, is

519
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 1: there's a thing called grace. But when we give ourselves

520
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 1: grace in every single moment of every single second of

521
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 1: our life, that's not grace. That's just not being a

522
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 1: human with responsibilities, yes, and doing hard things and so yeah,

523
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 1: sometimes you just have to I feel as a therapist,

524
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:41,200
Speaker 1: I can't say this anymore. But I also feel like

525
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 1: that's hurting us. It's like sometimes we just have to

526
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:47,120
Speaker 1: suck it up and we have to find ways, Like

527
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 1: if that's gonna take a lot of emotional energy to

528
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:53,919
Speaker 1: go to my friend's birthday and xyz okay, and I

529
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 1: might need to go to that, So I'm going to

530
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 1: go to that, and then I might need to find

531
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:02,040
Speaker 1: some time or ways to soothe myself after that. Yes,

532
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 1: like that's okay, Like it's okay to have because then

533
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 1: we're gonna get in the situation where like we are

534
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 1: stuck in our homes and we have no resiliency, like

535
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 1: we have no ability to I mean, are we ever

536
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 1: gonna go to a job interview? Or are we ever

537
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 1: gonna go on a if we're single, are you ever

538
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 1: gonna go on a first date? Because our anxiety and

539
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,399
Speaker 1: are all these things instead of saying I have anxiety

540
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 1: or I'm nervous or I get uncomfortable in these situations.

541
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:34,160
Speaker 1: Those aren't always stop signs. Sometimes they're like a hey,

542
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 1: slow down. You might need something to help you do

543
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,879
Speaker 1: this thing, but it doesn't necessarily mean you can't do

544
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:41,400
Speaker 1: this thing.

545
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:47,159
Speaker 2: And for me, why this became an actual friendship philosophy,

546
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,720
Speaker 2: not just like a directive yeah, is because I found

547
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 2: myself weighing pros and cons sometimes in a way that

548
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:57,679
Speaker 2: felt like icky to me, Like I don't want to

549
00:27:57,720 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 2: weigh the pros and cons of Like is this bird

550
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 2: day dinner worth it? I just keep using that as

551
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,680
Speaker 2: an example, but like is this event worth it? And

552
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,119
Speaker 2: this one's not? And like if I don't get sleep

553
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 2: on this night, can I, you know, do is she

554
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,679
Speaker 2: a good enough friend to sacrifice sleep for whatever? I

555
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 2: kept finding myself like weighing, like doing a pro and

556
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,400
Speaker 2: con list sometimes, and then I was like, you know what,

557
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 2: this is not how I want to be in relationship

558
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 2: if it is within my ability to go financially availability, Like,

559
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 2: if if it is available to go, I'm going to

560
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 2: just go. That's why it became a friendship philosophy. I

561
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 2: don't want to constantly be it takes up brain space.

562
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 2: It takes up heart space to be like scoring and

563
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 2: well you know these different things.

564
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, you talked about this in your book in the

565
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 1: beginning about how like we're the most connected, yes, the

566
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 1: most yet the most lonely ever we've ever been. And

567
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 1: I think this has to play a role in that.

568
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 1: And I used to say this all A'SI people to say, like,

569
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 1: what do you specialize in, Like what clientele is your

570
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,479
Speaker 1: I would say loneliness, Because no matter what it is,

571
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 1: no matter literally what it is when people come in,

572
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 1: when we get down to the bottom of it, most

573
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 1: of the time it's there's some kind of loneliness, whether

574
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 1: that's within our own relationship with ourself, with God, with

575
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 1: other people, it's loneliness. And this has to be a

576
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 1: huge part of that where we are sacrificing so much

577
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 1: connection with other people for comfortability, and at times it's

578
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 1: it is what we need and that's the hard thing.

579
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 1: And I was joking with somebody, I was like, it's

580
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 1: really hard to be somebody a therapist specifically, who was

581
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 1: hosting a podcast and who is trying to help people

582
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 1: and find ways to get people to see the content

583
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 1: so they can be helped without sacrificing integrity because the

584
00:29:54,200 --> 00:30:00,040
Speaker 1: stuff that people grab onto and reshare and like and

585
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 1: save and buy, it's this really polarizing information. And I

586
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 1: was when I was with my client, I was like,

587
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 1: you know what, I really would love to write a

588
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 1: book called it depends, because that's the answer I need

589
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 1: to like trademark that, Like that's the answer to most

590
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 1: questions that people ask in my office. Should I do this?

591
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 1: Can I do this? Does this make me a bad friend?

592
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 1: Does this make me a good person? Do you think this?

593
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 1: It depends? And our world is so like obsessed with

594
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 1: having a right or a wrong do this or don't

595
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 1: do that, And when we have this self care conversation,

596
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 1: it's the same thing. It's don't do it, protect yourself,

597
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 1: protect your sleep, all of that, and it's like, okay,

598
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 1: but it depends. Sometimes we need to do that. And

599
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 1: that's why I like that the philosophies that you said,

600
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 1: like you made these up for yourself. These don't have

601
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,239
Speaker 1: to be everybody's like tried and true, like you have

602
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 1: to live by these like it might depend.

603
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 2: Right, it does depend. I do think as a podcaster

604
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 2: and as a writer, I am sharing my own self

605
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 2: and life and philosophies. I'm not a therapist like you.

606
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 2: I'm not like educated in these things. I'm just sort

607
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 2: of sharing the things i'm learning, the things that are

608
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 2: working for me, the things that are not. And I

609
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 2: have just come to at this point, now, fifteen years

610
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 2: into this or whatever, I have to trust that people

611
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 2: are going to hear the messages they need to hear. Yeah,

612
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 2: and so if they glom onto one sentence that I said,

613
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 2: or one meme that I shared or whatever, that I

614
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 2: didn't actually mean for that to be like the main pointah,

615
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 2: but maybe that was something they needed to hear. And

616
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 2: so if if they heard this like protect your sleep

617
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 2: at all costs, and they go overboard with that, which

618
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 2: has happened, maybe actually they were coming out of a

619
00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 2: season where they are exhausted and they needed that permission

620
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 2: to protect their sleep at all costs. And so they

621
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 2: do that for six months and they feel better in

622
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 2: their body and in their spirit because they sort of

623
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 2: had that light bulb moment of oh my gosh, I

624
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 2: can say no to things and I can be in

625
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 2: bed at nine every night, and this is going to

626
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 2: change how I feel. And then I'm glad that they

627
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 2: feel that way. And that's amazing, but also that doesn't

628
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 2: mean it has to be for a lifetime.

629
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes, I'm glad you said that. I'm really

630
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 1: glad you said that that, like that is true that

631
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 1: I think something I need to work on, because I

632
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 1: can get really frustrated and I am working on this,

633
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 1: and everybody's listening to this podcast is like, yeah, we know, Kat,

634
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 1: you have this whole thing. I can go on a

635
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 1: tangent on this forever, but I need to give that

636
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 1: grace that when somebody's pulling that message that is being

637
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 1: pulled to them because they're looking at it through the

638
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 1: lens of their eyes and not my eyes and not

639
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 1: their neighbor's eyes. So thank you for that. I need

640
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 1: to get to this fourth philosophy because it is the

641
00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 1: one that literally punched me in the gut real bad.

642
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 2: Okay, So the fourth philosophy is like every Selfie. Now

643
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 2: I have to give credit where credit is due. This

644
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 2: comes from a poem by David Gate that opens the

645
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 2: book with permission. I love him. I found him on

646
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 2: Instagram and he has a poem that contains this line

647
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 2: like every selfie. And when I got to that line,

648
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 2: it punched me in the gut because I realized that

649
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 2: we have sort of, weirdly in our own minds become

650
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 2: like culture critics. We have been like I am going

651
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 2: to withhold my like or comment because this girl posts

652
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 2: too many selfies, or because this is like too sexy

653
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 2: for this moment, what is she doing? Or because we're

654
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 2: just like, oh my gosh, she's so insecure and needs

655
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 2: this affirmation. I'm not going to give it to her.

656
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 2: I don't want to subtly encourage her. Yeah, yes, you

657
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:09,439
Speaker 2: know who that's poisoning. It's not poisoning her, it's poisoning you. Yes,

658
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:14,400
Speaker 2: Like every selfie is just And I felt this in

659
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:17,800
Speaker 2: my bones because my whole message and both of my books,

660
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:20,240
Speaker 2: on my podcast everything, my whole message is to share

661
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 2: your stuff. Like I really think that women, as we

662
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 2: get older, we share less and less of ourselves for

663
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 2: all kinds of valid and valid reasons, and so I'm

664
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 2: constantly encouraging people to share. So when I noticed that,

665
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:36,400
Speaker 2: I was like weird when people shared, Like when I

666
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 2: was like, I mean, why'd they share that? Like, in

667
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 2: my mind, I'm thinking that that is opposite how I

668
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 2: really want to walk in this world, Like I truly

669
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 2: deeply want to encourage people to share themselves, not necessarily online,

670
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 2: in life, So who am I to judge how they're

671
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 2: doing it. It doesn't mean that we can't have thoughts

672
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 2: and opinions like maybe we think this is a little

673
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:01,840
Speaker 2: bit sexy for Instagram. I'm like, I don't know. And also,

674
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 2: liking everyone's selfies is the lowest possible bar to encourage

675
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 2: one another, the lowest like that's not texting back, that's

676
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 2: not asking them to coffee. It is the lowest bar,

677
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 2: and we often can't even meet that. And I was like,

678
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 2: this is it this. I'm taking the just like the

679
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 2: just go philosophy, I'm taking the pros and cons. I'm

680
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 2: not weighing this decision. I'm not going to think about

681
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 2: do I really like this picture or not. No, I'm

682
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 2: just going to like every selfie that comes through my

683
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 2: feed of someone I love. It's not an influencer, it's

684
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:40,720
Speaker 2: not a whatever, it's.

685
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 1: Somebody what I care about. Oh yeah, okay, I am

686
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:47,880
Speaker 1: gonna admit this that I am. I am that person,

687
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:50,799
Speaker 1: like I am the one that's like ooh, like they

688
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 1: just posted a picture like this yesterday or here we

689
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 1: go again, or I don't know. I was withhold. I

690
00:35:56,680 --> 00:36:00,320
Speaker 1: was withholding that. So I actually shared that little clip

691
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:04,239
Speaker 1: of the poem that was in that part to my

692
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 1: Instagram the other day when I was reading it, because

693
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 1: I just was like, we have this has to be

694
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 1: somewhere like people, I have got to share this and

695
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 1: we have to talk about this. And then I highlighted

696
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 1: under it where you said it can feel inauthentic when

697
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 1: you don't really like what they are putting out, but

698
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 1: does it matter? And that I was like does it?

699
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 1: And that's where you go in and talk about like

700
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 1: when did we become these like culture critics, Like if

701
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 1: there's a chance to cheer your friends on, you need

702
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 1: to take it. And that part, because I think that's

703
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:34,719
Speaker 1: what I always thought about, is like I don't want

704
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:36,239
Speaker 1: to like it if I don't really like it, or

705
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 1: like if my friend asked if I like their outfit

706
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:43,320
Speaker 1: and I don't, but their style is not my style,

707
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,279
Speaker 1: so I wouldn't like why would I say? Now, It's

708
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 1: one thing if they're like does this match and they

709
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:51,400
Speaker 1: can't figure something out, they're asking for help versus you know,

710
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:53,319
Speaker 1: when somebody just needs a little bit of like hmm,

711
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 1: so they can walk out the door. Its like, no, yeah,

712
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 1: you look cute, Like, why would I not encourage them

713
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:00,319
Speaker 1: if I could? Like, why would I not do that?

714
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:02,959
Speaker 1: Because it doesn't really matter if our styles are the same.

715
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:05,919
Speaker 1: It doesn't really matter if I would post that, because

716
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:08,719
Speaker 1: we're different people. So why would I not encourage my

717
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:11,400
Speaker 1: friend to be my friend? Like be who she is?

718
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:15,839
Speaker 2: And maybe they are posting because they have some insecurities

719
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:20,320
Speaker 2: and they want this affirmation. Maybe it is slightly annoying

720
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 2: in that way, but who cares. If they need the affirmation,

721
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 2: give it to them. What are you going to do?

722
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:29,400
Speaker 2: Teach them a lesson that they shouldn't They should just

723
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:33,359
Speaker 2: sit alone in their own insecurity over here. No, that

724
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:36,920
Speaker 2: is not how I want to be in friendship. Whether

725
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 2: they need the affirmation or you just don't like the

726
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:42,760
Speaker 2: way they act online or even in person. This doesn't

727
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,760
Speaker 2: always have to go down online. Even though the directive

728
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 2: is like every selfie, it's it's bigger than that. It's

729
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 2: broader than that. I think that again, culturally, it became

730
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 2: like inauthentic to be like, oh my god, you look

731
00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 2: so cute. Like that became like a joke and I

732
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 2: was like, no, that's not a joke. That is how

733
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 2: women often greet one another. That is our bonding ritual

734
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 2: is to be like, you look great, you look so

735
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:12,400
Speaker 2: pretty today. I love seeing you, great new haircut. Whatever.

736
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:16,479
Speaker 2: That does not feel inauthentic to me. It's couched as

737
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 2: being phony sometimes, like we see like the joke of that,

738
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 2: it is not phony to me to say to a

739
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 2: friend when I see them, like, you look fantastic now,

740
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 2: I am not actually assessing them to be like do

741
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:32,399
Speaker 2: they literally look better than the last time I saw them?

742
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 2: It does not matter. This is a way for me

743
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 2: to say I'm happy to see you.

744
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that that's a good point because there's

745
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 1: a difference in the like mean girl situation where you're like,

746
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:46,880
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I love your vest, and then behind

747
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:48,920
Speaker 1: their back they're like, oh my gosh, your vest was disgusting.

748
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:51,799
Speaker 1: Like that's not what we're doing. You're not liking it

749
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 1: and the gossiping about it. You're just liking it and

750
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:57,840
Speaker 1: moving on And adding that point where you said that

751
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 1: liking a post is like the lowest form, Like it's

752
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:05,719
Speaker 1: not like you're giving this huge speech and proclamation about them.

753
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:09,840
Speaker 1: You're just like liking something that they wanted people to see. Yeah,

754
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 1: this just really threw me, Like I think that. I

755
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 1: put the book down after and I was like, we'll

756
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 1: get back to this later because I got to sit

757
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,879
Speaker 1: with this one, and I can tell you since then,

758
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:23,239
Speaker 1: I've been like like happy. I'm like, oh, she like that,

759
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:25,360
Speaker 1: like that like that, And I think there is a

760
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 1: there's a difference in like liking this influencer's post or

761
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:32,160
Speaker 1: this person that famous person you don't know or whatever,

762
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:35,360
Speaker 1: and like liking a person that you're really is in

763
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 1: your circle. Like there's a difference in that.

764
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 2: And do you notice that it feels good?

765
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 1: Oh my god, yeah yes, because you know what doesn't

766
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 1: feel good. What doesn't feel good is when I see

767
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 1: my friend's stuff and I look at it, I read it,

768
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 1: and then I move and I'm like should I should?

769
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 1: I not? Should? I? Like? What if? That? That doesn't

770
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 1: feel good? That's the pros and conso lists that you're

771
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 1: talking about.

772
00:39:57,480 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 2: I don't I think, I say in the book, I

773
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,880
Speaker 2: know longer, like hover my finger over the like button.

774
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 2: I know longer, like think about it. I like the person,

775
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:10,840
Speaker 2: so I like their stuff now, you know. Obviously the

776
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 2: caveats here is if they're posting something you like disagree with,

777
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 2: like an article or something. But when we're talking about

778
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 2: selfies their pictures, I'm not gonna not like their family

779
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 2: photo on vacation because I'm a little bit jealous. So

780
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:27,880
Speaker 2: I'm withholding that like because I'm annoyed because they go

781
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:30,560
Speaker 2: on three vacations a year and I don't go on any. Yeah,

782
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:32,799
Speaker 2: that is only hurting you. It has nothing to do

783
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:33,239
Speaker 2: with them.

784
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:37,280
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, oh my gosh, okay. So also what I did?

785
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:38,759
Speaker 1: I did this. I wanted to ask you about this.

786
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:40,959
Speaker 1: I you know how in the book you talked about

787
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 1: how did you post on Instagram like do you notice

788
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 1: if people like your stuff?

789
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 2: Yes?

790
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 1: So I was like, oh, I want to see what

791
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:50,800
Speaker 1: people are going to say to me. So I posted

792
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 1: that it was very interesting to me, and I want

793
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 1: to hear what it was like for you, because it

794
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 1: sounds like we got a little different feedback. I said.

795
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:01,879
Speaker 1: I gave options of like do you notice? The thing

796
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:06,280
Speaker 1: said like, do you notice if people like or interact

797
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 1: with the stuff you're putting online? And I said yes, no,

798
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 1: where it depends. And then a separate box said why

799
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 1: or why not? And I think that it depends thing

800
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 1: kind of made the my scientific data a little different.

801
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,239
Speaker 1: But I noticed a lot of people were like no,

802
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:25,879
Speaker 1: and was like I don't care, blah blah blah blah lah,

803
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:29,760
Speaker 1: probably doesn't mean anything this, that and whatever. And I

804
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:31,920
Speaker 1: found I got like annoyed with that a little bit

805
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:33,839
Speaker 1: and was like, why is this annoying to me when

806
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 1: people say they don't notice or they don't care, because

807
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:41,880
Speaker 1: I know for a fact sometimes it's personal, so and

808
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 1: maybe these people have just like they're just really self

809
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:46,800
Speaker 1: assured great like I do. I'm not like saying everybody's lying.

810
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 1: And I think that it depends. Thing was a big

811
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:53,920
Speaker 1: deal because it's true. Sometimes people were saying, like I

812
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 1: don't always see my friend's posts, so I assume that

813
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:59,279
Speaker 1: my posts because of the algorithm, doesn't always show up

814
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 1: in their feed. So, oh, I can't always take it personally.

815
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:06,400
Speaker 1: But when I know somebody saw something, or if I

816
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:11,280
Speaker 1: sent somebody something directly, or I like, sometimes people are

817
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:14,279
Speaker 1: not liking something because they do not agree with your

818
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 1: lifestyle or not even just like like an article that's

819
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 1: like a very dividing political belief or something like that.

820
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:24,880
Speaker 1: It's like something about your life personally or something that

821
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 1: somebody's excited about and it's that whole thing of they

822
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 1: just want attention, Like I would never post that about myself,

823
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 1: and so you people withhold that sometimes it is personal.

824
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 1: So a question that I was wondering is for these

825
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 1: people that were like, no, no, no, no no. Is

826
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:40,960
Speaker 1: your answer no because you want it to be no?

827
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 1: Or is your answer no because it really is no

828
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 1: because I want to not care. I really do want

829
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 1: to be like, oh, other people's opinions don't matter, and like,

830
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:52,280
Speaker 1: I don't care if people think about me. But sometimes

831
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 1: I'm like, she saw that and she didn't like it.

832
00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:58,439
Speaker 1: And I will be the first person who admit I don't.

833
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:00,080
Speaker 1: I'm not the kind of person that looks at my

834
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:02,400
Speaker 1: story and looks everybody who's looking at my story. But

835
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 1: sometimes I'm like so and so I don't think like

836
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:07,879
Speaker 1: that thing that I put up, And I'll go back

837
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:11,319
Speaker 1: and I'll look and they haven't liked it. And I

838
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:14,000
Speaker 1: do take that personally because I know for a fact

839
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:16,800
Speaker 1: that they saw it. So I make up a story

840
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:19,680
Speaker 1: that of course they did it on purpose. Anyway. All

841
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:22,280
Speaker 1: that to say, what was the feedback that you got

842
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 1: and was it similar or was it different?

843
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 2: So this informed this whole section of the book. I

844
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 2: was asking questions, and I host these kind of conversations

845
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:34,880
Speaker 2: on Instagram. I've been doing this for years, and when

846
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,720
Speaker 2: I was writing the book, I did friendship specific ones

847
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:43,440
Speaker 2: and I asked this question, do you notice when people

848
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:45,879
Speaker 2: don't like or comment on your stuff? And I did

849
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 2: not give them yes, no, maybe, or it depends. I

850
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:52,359
Speaker 2: just ask the question, And like I said, I host

851
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 2: conversations on Instagram at least once a month, if not more,

852
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 2: where people DM me and I share their dms. It's

853
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:00,239
Speaker 2: kind of just one of the things that I do online.

854
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:03,800
Speaker 2: Never in all of my years of doing this online

855
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:07,120
Speaker 2: have I gotten such a swift, like immediate, like two

856
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:14,200
Speaker 2: hundred dms right away, and also like wide range of answers.

857
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:17,680
Speaker 2: So I did get people who were like, absolutely not,

858
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:20,360
Speaker 2: you cannot pay attention to who likes your stuff. And

859
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 2: sometimes it was grounded in like real things, like you're saying,

860
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:26,960
Speaker 2: like the algorithm is the worst. And sometimes it was

861
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:29,359
Speaker 2: like I just refuse to think about it. Sometimes it

862
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:32,399
Speaker 2: was like self righteous. And then there were a lot

863
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 2: of people who were like yes, and they had some

864
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 2: really sad story around it, like my sister in law

865
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 2: likes everyone in my family's posts, but will not like mine,

866
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 2: and and I've noticed obviously. And then there was a

867
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:49,080
Speaker 2: big middle that is meeting what you're saying, which is

868
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:53,040
Speaker 2: mostly like I try not to notice or care because

869
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:55,200
Speaker 2: I know the algorithm is wonky, and because I know

870
00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 2: people have online you know, different online etiquette or habits,

871
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 2: but I do care, And that is to me who

872
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:06,040
Speaker 2: I wanted to speak to the people who know. We

873
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 2: know there's a lot of factors here. We know sometimes

874
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:10,839
Speaker 2: you're scrolling at the stoplight and that's going to keep

875
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 2: you from like liking our comedy, you know what I mean.

876
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:15,799
Speaker 2: Like people are multitasking or people or whatever, and it's

877
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:18,359
Speaker 2: not always personal. We know that factually, we know that.

878
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:22,640
Speaker 2: And also we know that it hurts our feelings when

879
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 2: one particular friend or family member or whatever consistently refuses

880
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 2: to engage with anything that you post, and it makes

881
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 2: us worry, like is it personal that she hide me?

882
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 2: Did she secretly block me?

883
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:36,239
Speaker 1: Like?

884
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 2: Does she secretly hate me? Is she judging what I'm posting?

885
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 2: We spin out in our heads about it, and then

886
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 2: it does affect our real life relationship, and you know what,

887
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:49,360
Speaker 2: it also affects is how we post in the future.

888
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:53,600
Speaker 2: And this is what got my wheel spinning on it

889
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:57,799
Speaker 2: is I'm like, if you posted a selfie and nobody

890
00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:01,960
Speaker 2: in your hundreds of friendsless, like, you're going to stop

891
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:06,840
Speaker 2: posting selfies, which goes to my whole argument. All of

892
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:10,560
Speaker 2: the work I'm doing is leading to us. Why we

893
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 2: get smaller inside ourselves, why we stop sharing ourselves, why

894
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 2: we become less of our vibrant self. And one of

895
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 2: these things is because of the reaction or unreaction that

896
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 2: we get when we do share. Yeah, this is a

897
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 2: bigger conversation. It's not just about selfies. It's bigger.

898
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:34,320
Speaker 1: Yeah. And as you were saying that, I was thinking

899
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:37,000
Speaker 1: one of the reasons I think I get so like

900
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 1: wound up about. I want people to have the permission

901
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:42,360
Speaker 1: to admit if they notice or not, and if it

902
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 1: bothers them, because that's going to influence how I respond

903
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:49,319
Speaker 1: to my friends if I know it hurts me, if

904
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 1: I start to notice that. Okay, I try not to

905
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:55,319
Speaker 1: read into it, but sometimes I really do. I don't

906
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:57,359
Speaker 1: want my friends to do that, and I don't want

907
00:46:57,360 --> 00:46:59,879
Speaker 1: my friends to have to have to even think about that.

908
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:03,319
Speaker 1: So I'm going to like the post. I'm just going

909
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:05,360
Speaker 1: to do it. So that's I think one of the

910
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:07,799
Speaker 1: reasons I'm like, yeah, know that that can be a

911
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:10,719
Speaker 1: painful thing because if you say it doesn't matter, then

912
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:12,840
Speaker 1: you're not going to do anything differently. But if we

913
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 1: acknowledge that sometimes it does, then we can change our

914
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 1: behavior and then we can actually have all that connection

915
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:19,439
Speaker 1: that you're talking about.

916
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:23,160
Speaker 2: And that's why it's a core friendship philosophy. I have

917
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:26,239
Speaker 2: five friendship philosophies. Of all the ways that we think

918
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 2: and are in friendship, these five are the most I'm

919
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:33,960
Speaker 2: holding deer right now, and this is number four, because

920
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:37,160
Speaker 2: I do think it matters that much, even with people

921
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 2: who pretend like it doesn't matter, like you're saying, I'm

922
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:42,600
Speaker 2: sure people listening to this are going to come out

923
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:45,160
Speaker 2: with like, well, I am never online, so this doesn't

924
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 2: apply to me or whatever, and I'm like, Okay, I think,

925
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 2: but that's what I mean about. It's bigger than the

926
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:55,400
Speaker 2: actual selfies or it's bigger than the people that you

927
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:57,080
Speaker 2: want to roll your eyes at. I mean, we all

928
00:47:57,120 --> 00:47:59,360
Speaker 2: have feelings. I'm not trying to take away your opinions

929
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:03,840
Speaker 2: by telling you to like every selfie. But if you

930
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:06,319
Speaker 2: do for one week like you said you were doing,

931
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:08,279
Speaker 2: if you just try, I'm just gonna like all my

932
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 2: friend's stuff for one week and see how it feels

933
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:14,960
Speaker 2: in your body and spirit, and see if you notice

934
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:18,600
Speaker 2: a difference when you open the app to like your

935
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:22,960
Speaker 2: generosity of liking and how cute and your darling and

936
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:26,400
Speaker 2: I love this and all of that. It's not inauthentic.

937
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:28,880
Speaker 2: See if it feels different to you to be that

938
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:31,360
Speaker 2: way online than to just be like a troll.

939
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:35,439
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm controlling my friends and it does, Like that's

940
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 1: so crazy, Like I'm less annoyed. Yeah, because I'm not

941
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:41,640
Speaker 1: sitting there being like, let me judge what deserves my

942
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:42,560
Speaker 1: heart and what doesn't.

943
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:44,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, you'll enjoy social media more.

944
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:48,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, Oh dear God. Okay, all right, so I want

945
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,120
Speaker 1: to definitely finish these philosophies. So can you tell us

946
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:51,320
Speaker 1: the fifth one?

947
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:55,640
Speaker 2: The fifth one is probably the most controversial, but I

948
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:58,400
Speaker 2: am really passionate about this. Your spouse is not your

949
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:02,920
Speaker 2: best friend, and I know that we have become a

950
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:06,279
Speaker 2: culture who marries their best friend. I know that that

951
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:11,200
Speaker 2: is the utmost romantic thing we could possibly say or do.

952
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:16,640
Speaker 2: But if you put all of those eggs in that

953
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:22,000
Speaker 2: one relationship basket. It will leave you a little bit wanting. Probably,

954
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:26,360
Speaker 2: you will get a little bit lonely. You will be disappointed.

955
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:30,320
Speaker 2: You will feel that not all of your the different

956
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:32,600
Speaker 2: cups and buckets that we have in our heart are

957
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 2: filled because one person cannot fulfill all the things. Now

958
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:41,040
Speaker 2: I've been married for fifteen years. My husband is amazing.

959
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:44,480
Speaker 2: He is my partner, he is my co parent, he

960
00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 2: is my lover. He's my first call with any news

961
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:51,760
Speaker 2: good or bad. Like he is the most important person

962
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:54,960
Speaker 2: in my life. But I don't call him my best friend.

963
00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:59,280
Speaker 2: I have best friends, girlfriends. I have a longtime guy

964
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:01,480
Speaker 2: from the third grade that's one of my best friends. Like,

965
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 2: I have best friends that totally fill different chambers of

966
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 2: my life, and they deserve those titles. Not Jeff, my husband.

967
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:14,520
Speaker 2: He gets the husband title, He gets the most important

968
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:18,400
Speaker 2: person title. But I want to go laugh with my

969
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:21,680
Speaker 2: friends in a different way. I communicate with them differently.

970
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:25,080
Speaker 2: I found that when I tried to make him my

971
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:27,040
Speaker 2: best friend early in our marriage, which now feels like

972
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:29,359
Speaker 2: a long time ago, because it was when I tried

973
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 2: to make him my best friend. You know what this

974
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:34,919
Speaker 2: was this was an epitome of my lonely years, and

975
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:37,839
Speaker 2: I was like, no, Like, I have to have girlfriends.

976
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:41,480
Speaker 2: I have to have girls' nights out, weekend girls trips.

977
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:46,040
Speaker 2: I have to fill that side of my personality in

978
00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:48,680
Speaker 2: my heart. I have to admit that I don't get

979
00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 2: that from him, and I don't want to force him

980
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:54,879
Speaker 2: to try and fit into that box. Like I can't

981
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:57,480
Speaker 2: try to make him connect in the way that I

982
00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:02,200
Speaker 2: need to connect with girls. It's just different. And it

983
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:05,560
Speaker 2: freed up my marriage when I stop trying to make

984
00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:07,759
Speaker 2: him my best friend, when I could be like, he's

985
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:11,239
Speaker 2: my partner, he's the best, but I have best friends. Yes,

986
00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:11,960
Speaker 2: they're different.

987
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:16,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you probably feel very similar about that

988
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:20,120
Speaker 1: that I feel with my partners, my other half kind

989
00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:23,200
Speaker 1: of thing of I'm like, when you do that, you

990
00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:26,400
Speaker 1: are then relying on this person to fill all of

991
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:28,480
Speaker 1: these things and do all these things that I don't

992
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:31,560
Speaker 1: know that they have the ability to do. And you

993
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:33,840
Speaker 1: can be really close to somebody, you can be the

994
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:39,040
Speaker 1: closest to somebody that you can ever humanly imagine, and

995
00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 1: them not be the other half of your soul. And

996
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:44,080
Speaker 1: so I like that because what you're doing here is

997
00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:47,279
Speaker 1: you're giving people permission. They don't have to agree with

998
00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:49,719
Speaker 1: your this philosophy that you've come up with, but you're

999
00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:52,600
Speaker 1: actually giving people permission to say, I need a little

1000
00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:56,399
Speaker 1: bit more. And sometimes the world says this person should

1001
00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:58,640
Speaker 1: complete you, and they're supposed to do everything, and they're

1002
00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:00,440
Speaker 1: supposed to be able to laugh like this and do

1003
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:02,640
Speaker 1: this and have these conversations and d d da da

1004
00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:05,480
Speaker 1: da da. But sometimes that's just not the truth. And

1005
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:07,640
Speaker 1: that you can have like the most perfect partner that

1006
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:10,920
Speaker 1: you can imagine if perfect existed, and them not fill

1007
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:13,320
Speaker 1: all and check all those boxes. So you're saying like, hey,

1008
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:15,279
Speaker 1: you don't have to sit there and say, well, my

1009
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:17,279
Speaker 1: husband's my best friend, so I'm not going to go

1010
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:18,839
Speaker 1: out and to go to that party and this and

1011
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:19,799
Speaker 1: that because he's all I need.

1012
00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:20,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not.

1013
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:22,640
Speaker 1: It's literally not no.

1014
00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:25,960
Speaker 2: And also it doesn't do justice to sort of his

1015
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:28,799
Speaker 2: personality or what his strengths are. Yeah, to try to

1016
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:31,480
Speaker 2: make him in the image of what I need a

1017
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:34,759
Speaker 2: best friend to be like with my best friends, and

1018
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:37,440
Speaker 2: part of this is personality preference of what we need

1019
00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:39,360
Speaker 2: in different areas of our life. But like you know,

1020
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:43,400
Speaker 2: with my best girlfriends, we like dissect all the minutia

1021
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:45,480
Speaker 2: of whatever it is we're dissecting, you know what I mean,

1022
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:48,800
Speaker 2: Like we will talk for three hours about something. Okay,

1023
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:52,120
Speaker 2: well my husband that's not his gig, Like, he's not

1024
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:55,000
Speaker 2: the way to do that. And when I went through

1025
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:57,319
Speaker 2: a time period of I'm like, why won't you do

1026
00:52:57,400 --> 00:53:01,279
Speaker 2: that connecting ritual with me? That's how I can It

1027
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:05,120
Speaker 2: isn't fair to make him do that when he's like, well,

1028
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:07,480
Speaker 2: that's not how I connect, Well, why do we have

1029
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:09,640
Speaker 2: to default to the way that I need to connect.

1030
00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:13,080
Speaker 2: I'm going to try and find that particular connection in

1031
00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:15,560
Speaker 2: the other amazing friends I have in my life and

1032
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:18,640
Speaker 2: then let the strength of my bond with my husband

1033
00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:22,600
Speaker 2: be what it is, which is something else. And I

1034
00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:25,160
Speaker 2: think this can be true if you're not partnered. This

1035
00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:27,000
Speaker 2: can be true with other things. You know, if your

1036
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:30,400
Speaker 2: sister is your best friend, but she's your sister, I mean,

1037
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 2: what an amazing title that is. She doesn't have to

1038
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:35,839
Speaker 2: be your sister and your best friend. Or when people

1039
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:37,560
Speaker 2: say like my mom is my best friend or whatever,

1040
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:39,919
Speaker 2: my child is my best friend that has its own

1041
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:44,000
Speaker 2: problematic issues, like maybe this is your life and maybe

1042
00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:47,640
Speaker 2: this particular philosophy doesn't resonate with you because you have

1043
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:50,480
Speaker 2: found the complete package in one other person, and so

1044
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:52,719
Speaker 2: if it doesn't work for you, then just lose this

1045
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:56,759
Speaker 2: philosophy altogether. But talking about it, I do want to

1046
00:53:56,840 --> 00:53:59,759
Speaker 2: like point out to people, if you're not completely fulfilled

1047
00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:03,480
Speaker 2: in this way in your marriage, it doesn't mean there's

1048
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:04,680
Speaker 2: something wrong with your marriage.

1049
00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:07,560
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes, and that I think that's the permission

1050
00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:09,959
Speaker 1: that like, this doesn't mean I did it wrong. Yes,

1051
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:13,719
Speaker 1: So kind of to wrap this up because you know

1052
00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:16,960
Speaker 1: I have I'm trying to count, but like eight other

1053
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:21,400
Speaker 1: things I wanted to ask you, that's like gonna happen today.

1054
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:24,359
Speaker 1: So that's just a little just for anybody listening who

1055
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:27,120
Speaker 1: thought that this part was interesting or fascinating. This is

1056
00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:30,000
Speaker 1: like the beginning of the book, like the first Well.

1057
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:32,400
Speaker 2: Tell me what else on that list? Like you really

1058
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:33,160
Speaker 2: want to get to.

1059
00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:36,080
Speaker 1: Well, I wanted to get to all the archetypes, but

1060
00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:38,359
Speaker 1: I don't know what I was thinking. But then I

1061
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:40,680
Speaker 1: also had things down here that I wanted to talk

1062
00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:43,360
Speaker 1: that I thought were really interesting. How you talk about

1063
00:54:43,719 --> 00:54:45,279
Speaker 1: towards I think this is all towards the end, But

1064
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:48,080
Speaker 1: like when you have issues with always being the initiator

1065
00:54:48,120 --> 00:54:50,080
Speaker 1: of a friendship, like what do you do and if

1066
00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:52,120
Speaker 1: you want to share something with somebody but don't want

1067
00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:54,920
Speaker 1: to be too much, what do you do? And also

1068
00:54:55,120 --> 00:54:58,040
Speaker 1: just tips and tricks and your advice on how to

1069
00:54:58,040 --> 00:54:59,839
Speaker 1: make friends as an adult. We'd kind of talked about

1070
00:54:59,840 --> 00:55:02,839
Speaker 1: that because those are things that I hear over and

1071
00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:08,719
Speaker 1: over with clients, and also friendship endings like which you

1072
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:10,720
Speaker 1: talk about that, and I just I liked the empty

1073
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:14,160
Speaker 1: chair part of your archetypes too, So those are like

1074
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:15,520
Speaker 1: seven other podcasts.

1075
00:55:16,719 --> 00:55:19,279
Speaker 2: There's a lot in this book. It's it's actually not

1076
00:55:19,360 --> 00:55:22,480
Speaker 2: that long of a book. It's in terms of pages,

1077
00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:25,280
Speaker 2: but there's a lot of material.

1078
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:29,000
Speaker 1: Yes, no, there really is. They're really and good materials.

1079
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:32,640
Speaker 1: So anybody listening who's like this philosophy thing is fascinating.

1080
00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:35,120
Speaker 1: There is so much more stuff in there, and it's

1081
00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:36,840
Speaker 1: not You're not going to be sitting there reading the

1082
00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:38,879
Speaker 1: book for four months. You'll you can have it done

1083
00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:41,239
Speaker 1: in a day, two days, depending on how you read,

1084
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:43,520
Speaker 1: depending on if you have to set it down and

1085
00:55:43,560 --> 00:55:46,920
Speaker 1: go reevaluate your whole philosophy on how you engage on

1086
00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:50,279
Speaker 1: social media. But to kind of wrap this part, up.

1087
00:55:50,719 --> 00:55:53,319
Speaker 1: What would you say to somebody who's listening to these

1088
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:56,480
Speaker 1: philosophies as like, oh, like I like that idea of

1089
00:55:56,600 --> 00:56:00,479
Speaker 1: having friendship philosophies, Like, what would you say to somebody

1090
00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:02,680
Speaker 1: who's who's like I want to keep some of these

1091
00:56:02,719 --> 00:56:05,080
Speaker 1: that you that they've heard, and like, how do I

1092
00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:07,960
Speaker 1: add or how did you? How do I come up

1093
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:11,040
Speaker 1: with these? And once I come up with them, how

1094
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:12,640
Speaker 1: do I commit to them for my whole life?

1095
00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:16,160
Speaker 2: Well, I'll answer that first part. First, No, don't go

1096
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:20,440
Speaker 2: into any of this reading about the life Council philosophies.

1097
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:23,200
Speaker 2: Never should it be commit to for the rest of

1098
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:26,200
Speaker 2: your life. Like let yourself change. That's one of my

1099
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:30,800
Speaker 2: huge mantras that I always preach. You are not lost

1100
00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:34,719
Speaker 2: and let yourself change. Those are two really important things

1101
00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:37,759
Speaker 2: that we should always sort of hold dear. It doesn't

1102
00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:40,279
Speaker 2: make you flaky, I mean, hopefully you don't change like

1103
00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:44,319
Speaker 2: week to week, but let yourself evolve and grow and

1104
00:56:44,719 --> 00:56:47,040
Speaker 2: you know all of those things. So as you're thinking

1105
00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:49,960
Speaker 2: about what part of these philosophies resonate with you or

1106
00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:52,440
Speaker 2: what your own might be, know that it's not this

1107
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:55,759
Speaker 2: is not a lifetime commitment. Hopefully things will change for

1108
00:56:55,800 --> 00:56:59,000
Speaker 2: you in different eras of your life. But the other

1109
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:01,560
Speaker 2: thing about finding your own friendship philosophies, because these are

1110
00:57:01,640 --> 00:57:03,759
Speaker 2: mine that I would love for you to adopt, but

1111
00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:07,480
Speaker 2: also to find your own is my favorite practice of

1112
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:13,680
Speaker 2: all time, which is just paying attention, noticing and mindfulness.

1113
00:57:14,239 --> 00:57:18,280
Speaker 2: It is not like the biggest chore of your life

1114
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:21,640
Speaker 2: to just start noticing next time you're out with your friends,

1115
00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:23,640
Speaker 2: next time you're texting with your friends, next time you're

1116
00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:26,840
Speaker 2: scrolling your phone, noticing what your thoughts are. And this

1117
00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:31,240
Speaker 2: is like the basis of mindfulness of being like, huh,

1118
00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:35,000
Speaker 2: I don't like the way she acts in friendship. I

1119
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:38,080
Speaker 2: don't like the way she acts. Why don't I like it?

1120
00:57:38,120 --> 00:57:40,640
Speaker 2: And sort of asking yourself, Okay, well, it's because she

1121
00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:43,720
Speaker 2: always flakes last minute, she always cancels plans. So maybe

1122
00:57:43,760 --> 00:57:47,760
Speaker 2: one of my friendship philosophies is don't cancel unless there's

1123
00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:51,920
Speaker 2: an emergency notice for yourself, like, oh, I feel really

1124
00:57:51,960 --> 00:57:55,920
Speaker 2: alive when I'm with this person. Why what is it

1125
00:57:55,960 --> 00:57:57,840
Speaker 2: about her that makes me feel alive? Do we have

1126
00:57:57,880 --> 00:58:01,000
Speaker 2: a spiritual connection? Is she extra fun me? Do I

1127
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:04,240
Speaker 2: feel like I can trust her? Whatever? If you're investigating yourself,

1128
00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:06,680
Speaker 2: why then maybe you might think, you know, one of

1129
00:58:06,680 --> 00:58:11,080
Speaker 2: my friendship philosophies is that I seek out people who

1130
00:58:11,080 --> 00:58:13,440
Speaker 2: are different than me. If you feel like that's lighting

1131
00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:16,400
Speaker 2: you up after this interaction, just taking if you're going

1132
00:58:16,440 --> 00:58:18,600
Speaker 2: to take a week to notice what it feels like

1133
00:58:18,680 --> 00:58:21,640
Speaker 2: to like every selfie in your feed, take like maybe

1134
00:58:21,640 --> 00:58:24,959
Speaker 2: a month to just notice. You don't have to carve

1135
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:27,560
Speaker 2: out philosophies and write them down and post them, but

1136
00:58:27,800 --> 00:58:34,760
Speaker 2: just noticing what habits or people or dynamics or interactions

1137
00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:39,000
Speaker 2: really work for you and why, because then you can

1138
00:58:39,040 --> 00:58:42,840
Speaker 2: say I want more of that. So let's say that

1139
00:58:42,880 --> 00:58:46,120
Speaker 2: you go against your better judgment you go to the

1140
00:58:46,120 --> 00:58:48,480
Speaker 2: birthday party even though you're supposed to be self caring,

1141
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:51,720
Speaker 2: and then you go and you come home and you're like,

1142
00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:57,440
Speaker 2: I'm so glad I went. Then you might be like, okay, well,

1143
00:58:58,040 --> 00:59:01,880
Speaker 2: maybe I always go to birthdays. Maybe you don't want

1144
00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:03,800
Speaker 2: to commit to all of the just go, but you're like,

1145
00:59:04,040 --> 00:59:07,840
Speaker 2: I am really going. I really love celebrating friends, and

1146
00:59:07,880 --> 00:59:10,320
Speaker 2: so this is going to be something I'm gonna make

1147
00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:13,600
Speaker 2: a real effort towards. Or maybe you come home from

1148
00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:17,000
Speaker 2: that night and you're like, I shouldn't have gone, I'm exhausted,

1149
00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:20,480
Speaker 2: those people bug me, you know whatever, and then you

1150
00:59:20,520 --> 00:59:24,560
Speaker 2: can say, why didn't I like that? If your answer

1151
00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:27,400
Speaker 2: is I don't feel good when I leave that group

1152
00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:30,960
Speaker 2: of people, you have to notice that you have to

1153
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:32,880
Speaker 2: pay attention to that instead of being like, well, now

1154
00:59:33,160 --> 00:59:36,280
Speaker 2: i'm this, but this is my group of friends. Well okay,

1155
00:59:36,280 --> 00:59:37,600
Speaker 2: well but they don't make you feel good.

1156
00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:40,320
Speaker 1: Well I think that's important because I could say I

1157
00:59:40,320 --> 00:59:42,160
Speaker 1: didn't like that, and I could see I shouldn't go

1158
00:59:42,200 --> 00:59:44,840
Speaker 1: to things if I'm tired. But really, it's no, that

1159
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:47,680
Speaker 1: group of people makes me feel like a lower version

1160
00:59:47,720 --> 00:59:51,440
Speaker 1: of myself. Yes, it's not that you shouldn't have gone that.

1161
00:59:51,480 --> 00:59:52,960
Speaker 1: Those are probably not your people.

1162
00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:56,000
Speaker 2: Or maybe you had too many drinks and you came

1163
00:59:56,040 --> 00:59:58,960
Speaker 2: home and you were like, I should have only had

1164
00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:03,439
Speaker 2: one drink or none because I feel gross. I said

1165
01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:06,520
Speaker 2: something I didn't mean to, you know whatever, and so

1166
01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:08,240
Speaker 2: something that's just about you. It has nothing to do

1167
01:00:08,280 --> 01:00:09,800
Speaker 2: with the group of people. It has nothing to do

1168
01:00:09,840 --> 01:00:14,480
Speaker 2: with the birthday. It was you shouldn't drink anymore for now,

1169
01:00:14,600 --> 01:00:16,160
Speaker 2: you know, like that's going to be your new friendship

1170
01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:20,280
Speaker 2: philosophy because it's affecting your relationships that's what makes it

1171
01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:23,520
Speaker 2: a friendship philosophy versus like a life change necessarily of like, gosh,

1172
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:26,720
Speaker 2: I don't love myself when I drink because I damage

1173
01:00:26,720 --> 01:00:30,840
Speaker 2: my relationships, I say stupid stuff, I'm not my best self.

1174
01:00:31,200 --> 01:00:34,320
Speaker 2: So my new philosophy for right now is to not

1175
01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:38,080
Speaker 2: drink at social gatherings whatever. So then it's not about

1176
01:00:38,080 --> 01:00:40,640
Speaker 2: the friends or the people. It's about your own behavior,

1177
01:00:41,440 --> 01:00:43,520
Speaker 2: which is a lot of these philosophies are about your

1178
01:00:43,560 --> 01:00:47,160
Speaker 2: own behavior, right, like what makes you feel good and

1179
01:00:47,200 --> 01:00:50,880
Speaker 2: what doesn't. It's not always about like controlling the other people.

1180
01:00:51,080 --> 01:00:54,280
Speaker 2: It's certainly not about like deeming other people toxic. That

1181
01:00:54,400 --> 01:00:56,640
Speaker 2: drives me nuts that we deem people we don't like

1182
01:00:56,680 --> 01:00:58,960
Speaker 2: as toxic. You can just be like, yeah, they're just

1183
01:00:58,960 --> 01:00:59,640
Speaker 2: not my vibe.

1184
01:01:00,200 --> 01:01:01,960
Speaker 1: Yeah I don't like them. That I don't have to

1185
01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:02,760
Speaker 1: demonize them.

1186
01:01:02,920 --> 01:01:05,200
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I don't have to like block them and

1187
01:01:05,240 --> 01:01:07,640
Speaker 2: cut them out of my life. So that's a thing.

1188
01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:10,640
Speaker 2: Just because they're i don't know, snarky or something, does

1189
01:01:10,680 --> 01:01:13,720
Speaker 2: it make them a toxic human. So it's just a

1190
01:01:13,880 --> 01:01:19,160
Speaker 2: lot of noticing, which this sounds simple, almost too simple,

1191
01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:22,040
Speaker 2: But we go through a lot of life not really

1192
01:01:22,160 --> 01:01:25,000
Speaker 2: examining what's actually going on because this has been our

1193
01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:28,120
Speaker 2: friendship group for a long time, because this is our habit,

1194
01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:31,400
Speaker 2: because it's just the way we do it. And sometimes

1195
01:01:31,400 --> 01:01:33,000
Speaker 2: you have to be like, well, I don't know that

1196
01:01:33,080 --> 01:01:35,760
Speaker 2: this is working for me. I have a million friends

1197
01:01:35,760 --> 01:01:39,120
Speaker 2: and still feel lonely. Something here is not clicking. I

1198
01:01:39,160 --> 01:01:41,920
Speaker 2: have to pay attention to what that is, or you

1199
01:01:41,920 --> 01:01:44,640
Speaker 2: know the opposite, like I don't have very many friends,

1200
01:01:44,680 --> 01:01:47,760
Speaker 2: I don't know very many people. What part of that

1201
01:01:47,920 --> 01:01:48,320
Speaker 2: is on me?

1202
01:01:49,160 --> 01:01:53,360
Speaker 1: Yeah? Uh okay, Well I have so many conversations for

1203
01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:55,760
Speaker 1: you about your life, about all this stuff about friendship,

1204
01:01:56,040 --> 01:01:58,520
Speaker 1: and if anybody's listening and they're like, oh well, I

1205
01:01:58,560 --> 01:01:59,800
Speaker 1: wanted to get it to those other things that you

1206
01:01:59,840 --> 01:02:02,600
Speaker 1: man Where and when can people buy your book?

1207
01:02:02,800 --> 01:02:06,360
Speaker 2: The book comes out April fourth. I'm very excited about it,

1208
01:02:06,760 --> 01:02:09,760
Speaker 2: and you can go to the lifecuncilbook dot com and

1209
01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:11,960
Speaker 2: it has more about the book. It has pre order

1210
01:02:12,040 --> 01:02:15,520
Speaker 2: bonuses if you're able to order it before it comes out.

1211
01:02:15,560 --> 01:02:20,960
Speaker 2: It's available in every format. It's coming out simultaneously in hardcover, paperback, ebook,

1212
01:02:21,040 --> 01:02:24,040
Speaker 2: and audiobook, which I read myself because I'm a podcaster,

1213
01:02:24,320 --> 01:02:26,840
Speaker 2: so I'm reading it to you. Yeah, I would love

1214
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:28,360
Speaker 2: it if people would buy it, and that I really

1215
01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:31,800
Speaker 2: hope that it starts conversations in their own friendship groups.

1216
01:02:31,960 --> 01:02:33,800
Speaker 2: Like that's I dream for this book, that they would

1217
01:02:33,800 --> 01:02:35,200
Speaker 2: read this book and then they would take it to

1218
01:02:35,240 --> 01:02:38,080
Speaker 2: their friends and be like, Hey, who are we on

1219
01:02:38,080 --> 01:02:40,840
Speaker 2: one another's life council? Or Hey, do you think maybe

1220
01:02:40,880 --> 01:02:44,360
Speaker 2: our friendship group could use a little inspiration. I don't know,

1221
01:02:44,920 --> 01:02:47,080
Speaker 2: like I really want it to spark those kind of conversations.

1222
01:02:47,440 --> 01:02:49,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I will say, like you talk about this

1223
01:02:49,720 --> 01:02:53,000
Speaker 1: in the book, but the way you've developed the life council,

1224
01:02:53,040 --> 01:02:56,240
Speaker 1: the architect types, like the different kinds of friends is

1225
01:02:56,560 --> 01:02:59,600
Speaker 1: really nice because it helps and it sounds like this

1226
01:02:59,640 --> 01:03:01,520
Speaker 1: is the point, but it really has helped me look

1227
01:03:01,560 --> 01:03:04,560
Speaker 1: at so that this friend is lacking something. It's that

1228
01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:07,400
Speaker 1: this I'm just not looking at what this friend offers me.

1229
01:03:08,000 --> 01:03:10,440
Speaker 1: And if I look at this council of God, I

1230
01:03:10,440 --> 01:03:12,400
Speaker 1: can say, oh my gosh, this look what you do

1231
01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:15,760
Speaker 1: so well, look what I appreciate you so much for

1232
01:03:15,840 --> 01:03:18,880
Speaker 1: this versus you don't do all the things. My husband's

1233
01:03:18,880 --> 01:03:19,440
Speaker 1: my best friend.

1234
01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:21,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's yeah, it's very much that like you can

1235
01:03:21,720 --> 01:03:24,720
Speaker 2: have a friend that seems like it's on the shallow

1236
01:03:24,800 --> 01:03:28,640
Speaker 2: side because they're very fun and you do fun things.

1237
01:03:28,720 --> 01:03:31,040
Speaker 2: But like she never really wants to have a heart

1238
01:03:31,080 --> 01:03:33,560
Speaker 2: to heart, and so you think, well, this, I'm not

1239
01:03:33,600 --> 01:03:37,080
Speaker 2: that close to this person. That's not true. She is

1240
01:03:37,120 --> 01:03:42,000
Speaker 2: providing fun in your life. What a benefit. So accepting

1241
01:03:42,040 --> 01:03:44,920
Speaker 2: that she's never gonna have a heart to heart with you, like,

1242
01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:47,880
Speaker 2: that's just that's not the nature of that friendship. You're

1243
01:03:47,880 --> 01:03:50,320
Speaker 2: gonna have a heart to heart with Sally over here

1244
01:03:50,360 --> 01:03:52,640
Speaker 2: who doesn't like to go out very often. So you

1245
01:03:52,720 --> 01:03:54,800
Speaker 2: have a fun friend and you have a deep friend,

1246
01:03:55,040 --> 01:03:57,760
Speaker 2: and both of those things, like brings so much to

1247
01:03:57,960 --> 01:04:01,680
Speaker 2: your life, and you bring something to their life. It's

1248
01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:05,439
Speaker 2: giving prole permission to be who they are and lean

1249
01:04:05,480 --> 01:04:08,200
Speaker 2: into their strengths because you want people to do that

1250
01:04:08,280 --> 01:04:08,600
Speaker 2: to you.

1251
01:04:08,680 --> 01:04:13,240
Speaker 1: Also, well it's allowed, and well this is an experiment,

1252
01:04:13,280 --> 01:04:14,960
Speaker 1: I guess because it hasn't been that long. But I've

1253
01:04:14,960 --> 01:04:18,400
Speaker 1: been thinking about this. But in my own life, I've

1254
01:04:18,440 --> 01:04:21,400
Speaker 1: recently been like, i feel like I'm stretched too thin

1255
01:04:21,440 --> 01:04:24,160
Speaker 1: because I'm always I've always been somebody that has had

1256
01:04:24,200 --> 01:04:27,200
Speaker 1: a lot of friends in different circles and can be

1257
01:04:27,200 --> 01:04:29,720
Speaker 1: friends with a lot of different kinds of people. But I

1258
01:04:29,760 --> 01:04:33,880
Speaker 1: in my head was like before previously in my life,

1259
01:04:33,960 --> 01:04:37,080
Speaker 1: I have to be the same kind of friend to everybody,

1260
01:04:37,160 --> 01:04:39,720
Speaker 1: Like I have to offer the same kind of friendship

1261
01:04:39,800 --> 01:04:42,040
Speaker 1: because that's who I am to every single person I'm

1262
01:04:42,040 --> 01:04:44,320
Speaker 1: friends with. But then I got to a point that

1263
01:04:44,400 --> 01:04:45,520
Speaker 1: I was like, well, I guess I have to cut

1264
01:04:45,520 --> 01:04:47,520
Speaker 1: all these friends out of my life because I can't

1265
01:04:47,520 --> 01:04:49,160
Speaker 1: do that, and I feel exhausted and I feel like

1266
01:04:49,160 --> 01:04:50,840
Speaker 1: I'm being a bad friend because I can't keep up.

1267
01:04:51,600 --> 01:04:54,920
Speaker 1: And this was a nice confirmation. That's like, sometimes I

1268
01:04:54,960 --> 01:04:57,040
Speaker 1: get to be the deep, heart to heart friend. Sometimes

1269
01:04:57,040 --> 01:04:59,640
Speaker 1: I get to do that, and sometimes I get to

1270
01:04:59,640 --> 01:05:02,280
Speaker 1: be some body's fun friend who will laugh and talk

1271
01:05:02,320 --> 01:05:06,600
Speaker 1: about pop culture, gossip and this kind of stuff and

1272
01:05:07,240 --> 01:05:09,280
Speaker 1: go and try these new restaurants and I don't have

1273
01:05:09,360 --> 01:05:11,959
Speaker 1: to ask you about every single part of your life

1274
01:05:12,000 --> 01:05:15,920
Speaker 1: and remember every single detail. And it has been a

1275
01:05:15,960 --> 01:05:16,680
Speaker 1: game changer.

1276
01:05:17,080 --> 01:05:20,160
Speaker 2: Do you hear that? That was your friendship philosophy before

1277
01:05:20,160 --> 01:05:23,720
Speaker 2: it changed. Your friendship philosophy was I have to be

1278
01:05:23,840 --> 01:05:26,959
Speaker 2: the same type of friend to everyone, and there's nothing

1279
01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:31,160
Speaker 2: wrong with that. You obviously valued like fairness, you valued equality.

1280
01:05:31,240 --> 01:05:34,360
Speaker 2: You didn't want one person to, you know, feel outranked

1281
01:05:34,400 --> 01:05:37,200
Speaker 2: by the other or whatever. That was a friendship philosophy

1282
01:05:37,200 --> 01:05:39,400
Speaker 2: that was rooted in goodness. Like, I can tell why

1283
01:05:39,440 --> 01:05:42,160
Speaker 2: you're talking about it. I want to be consistent. It's

1284
01:05:42,240 --> 01:05:44,320
Speaker 2: part of my identity to be the same type of

1285
01:05:44,320 --> 01:05:47,560
Speaker 2: friend to everyone. So that was a friendship philosophy that

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01:05:47,560 --> 01:05:50,560
Speaker 2: you already had. But now you're like, yeah, that doesn't

1287
01:05:50,600 --> 01:05:51,440
Speaker 2: work for me anymore.

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01:05:51,560 --> 01:05:54,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh okay, Well, thank you so much for this conversation.

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01:05:55,000 --> 01:05:57,400
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for this book. I'm just gonna

1290
01:05:57,440 --> 01:05:59,840
Speaker 1: carry it around with me everywhere I go. But yeah,

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01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:01,640
Speaker 1: thank you so much for all of this. I'm excited

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01:06:01,640 --> 01:06:04,400
Speaker 1: for your book to come out. I've already mentioned it

1293
01:06:04,400 --> 01:06:05,960
Speaker 1: to some of my clients. I'm like, I'm reading this

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01:06:05,960 --> 01:06:07,080
Speaker 1: book and I think you should read it.

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01:06:08,120 --> 01:06:10,400
Speaker 2: Oh good, Thank you so much for that. That means

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01:06:10,400 --> 01:06:10,840
Speaker 2: a lot to me.

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01:06:10,960 --> 01:06:13,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I say that honestly. I wouldn't be saying that.

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01:06:13,920 --> 01:06:15,640
Speaker 1: I would find a different way to skirt around that,

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01:06:16,360 --> 01:06:18,880
Speaker 1: So I really mean it. We know where we can

1300
01:06:18,880 --> 01:06:22,440
Speaker 1: find your book. What about your podcast and Instagram? All that?

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01:06:22,480 --> 01:06:23,440
Speaker 1: Can you throw that out?

1302
01:06:23,720 --> 01:06:26,560
Speaker 2: You can find everything at Laura Tremaine dot com. My

1303
01:06:26,800 --> 01:06:29,920
Speaker 2: podcast is called ten things to tell you it is weekly.

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01:06:30,200 --> 01:06:32,080
Speaker 2: And then my favorite place to be and where I

1305
01:06:32,080 --> 01:06:35,080
Speaker 2: host a lot of these conversations is on Instagram where

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01:06:35,120 --> 01:06:36,840
Speaker 2: I am Laura dot Tremaine.

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01:06:37,080 --> 01:06:39,520
Speaker 1: Okay, beautiful. We'll put all that in the show notes

1308
01:06:39,520 --> 01:06:41,200
Speaker 1: for you guys listening, so you can just click on

1309
01:06:41,280 --> 01:06:44,000
Speaker 1: it if you are in a hurry and don't have

1310
01:06:44,040 --> 01:06:45,840
Speaker 1: a pen and a paper, or I guess you would

1311
01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:47,600
Speaker 1: be writing that down on your phone. You would have

1312
01:06:47,600 --> 01:06:51,720
Speaker 1: been like her Instagram is okay anyway, be in the

1313
01:06:51,720 --> 01:06:54,400
Speaker 1: show notes. So thank you and good luck on this launch.

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01:06:54,800 --> 01:07:00,640
Speaker 2: Thank you, E