1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:03,480 Speaker 1: Body times, but Joseph's gotten more. 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 2: I've spoken extensively about my viewing habits relative to television 3 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 2: and YouTube in particular, because that's really what I watch 4 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 2: most of the time, and it shouldn't. I don't know. 5 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:23,919 Speaker 2: Maybe it does surprise some people when I tell them 6 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 2: that I don't watch true crime programs. It's not something 7 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 2: I said, you know, it's like you you do it 8 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 2: a lot, which I do, and I'm not complaining. I 9 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 2: love all of my colleagues that I work with, and 10 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:42,879 Speaker 2: I love discussing cases in the forensic aspects and those 11 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 2: sorts of things. But if you're going to give me 12 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:53,519 Speaker 2: a choice between watching the history documentary and watching something 13 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 2: having to do with a case, I need My mind 14 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 2: needs a break. It really does. As you work at 15 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 2: you know, you kind of work at this level where 16 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:06,959 Speaker 2: all these new cases are coming in. However, I will say, 17 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 2: we're right at the end of the semester at Jacksonville 18 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:15,959 Speaker 2: State and as you know, and teach forensics. So I 19 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 2: had a bunch of my students that came to me 20 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:27,319 Speaker 2: and said, Professor Morgan, have you watched the new Jean 21 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 2: Benet documentary? And I told them flatly, no, I haven't 22 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:37,119 Speaker 2: and I really have no desire to watch it. Well, 23 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 2: I told that to my wife and she looked at 24 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 2: me and she said, we need to watch it. And 25 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 2: I was like, okay, Well, we lay in our bed 26 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 2: and we've got this gigantic television that is in our 27 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 2: room hanging off the wall, and so I have to 28 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 2: look over my toes to watch TV. And we got 29 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 2: into the first episode, and I'm not going to say 30 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 2: I was riveted or fascinated, but I was at least 31 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 2: mildly intrigued because I really wanted to see this thing 32 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 2: from the perspective of is there a different narrative out there? 33 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 2: Because the Lord knows this tale has been told over 34 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 2: and over and over and over again. And I came 35 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:31,839 Speaker 2: away with kind of a new understanding, and I got 36 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 2: to give props where props are due as kind of 37 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:42,799 Speaker 2: an adjacent here. My interest in this case has ebbed 38 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:46,359 Speaker 2: and flowed over the years. But after I watched the documentary, 39 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 2: I came across an article that was written in Buzzy 40 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 2: and they broke this thing down into the seventeen points. 41 00:02:56,600 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 2: That of information that came out in the article is 42 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 2: written by from the perspective of the author who thinks 43 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 2: that she didn't that she never knew that were revealed 44 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 2: to her. So I kind of wanted to get with 45 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 2: my buddy Dave and break this down and talk a 46 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:19,239 Speaker 2: little bit about the background of the case and maybe 47 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 2: a different perspective. Either way, we'll walk our way through 48 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 2: it as best we can, because there's a lot to 49 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 2: kind of analyze here. But I've got the best in 50 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 2: the business to help me walk through it, with my 51 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 2: friend Dave Mac. I'm Josephcott Morgan and this is Bodybodies. Dave. 52 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 2: I don't know who watched it first. I know that 53 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 2: you watched it. I watched it. I don't know if 54 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 2: that necessarily matters. But Kim and I, Kim and I 55 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 2: watched it all on once, okay, which is hard for 56 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 2: me to do. It really is. It's like, I hang on, 57 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 2: I need a break. But we sat there and we 58 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 2: watched every episode because it's like when I get breaks 59 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 2: in time, if I don't do something in the immediate, 60 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 2: it ain't gonna get done. And I'm bad to watch 61 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 2: television stuff and never finish it. There's only a few 62 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 2: things that I'll watch all the way. The conclusion as 63 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 2: far as series goes, and it's just, you know, it's 64 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 2: just one of those things that I knew that I 65 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 2: had to sit there and make my way through it, 66 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:37,040 Speaker 2: and some stuff already knew to a great degree. I've 67 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:39,840 Speaker 2: been covering the autopsy report for years and years now. 68 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 2: But what was your kind of your takeaway, if you will, 69 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 2: after you know, your your kind of gut reaction to 70 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 2: it after watching this thing. 71 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 1: To be very honest, I've avoided a lot of the 72 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:56,480 Speaker 1: coverage just because it has been done so much and 73 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: there's been so much written as fact that turned out 74 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: to be fiction about the case of John Bene Ramsey 75 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 1: and her murder. And there are parts of this case 76 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 1: that have always bothered me like they have millions of 77 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 1: others that I haven't devoted time to watching anything new. 78 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 1: But for some reason, when this thing popped up on Netflix, 79 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: I watched it. I was amazed at a few things 80 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 1: I didn't know. One of the biggest things I found 81 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 1: out was about the actual layout of the house. That 82 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 1: was kind of surprising to me. And we'll get into that, 83 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 1: but just to give you an idea a little review, 84 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:38,360 Speaker 1: you and I just being the age R, we've been 85 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 1: covering this case for a long time. Okay. I actually 86 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: found out in talking to some of the people on 87 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:46,840 Speaker 1: our show, on the Nancy Gray Show, some of the 88 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: newer employees that are professionals and do a great job, 89 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:54,920 Speaker 1: they don't remember it. They only know it as John 90 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: Bana Ramsey, as little girl was killed, and they never 91 00:05:57,440 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: solved it. They don't remember the case like you and 92 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: I do. Like many of you listening to this podcast, 93 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:07,359 Speaker 1: you remember how it was covered. Younger people don't. 94 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,239 Speaker 2: That's how we Yeah, and let me tell you this. 95 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 2: This is what's so fascinating about what I said earlier 96 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:16,159 Speaker 2: is the fact that none of my students were born 97 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:19,840 Speaker 2: this case happened, and you just think about that. That's 98 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:24,720 Speaker 2: it's kind of like the well, it's kind of like 99 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:30,040 Speaker 2: if when we were kids, if we in college and 100 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 2: we started asking maybe if we had a professor of 101 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 2: forensics or police science or whatever, we'd say, well, tell 102 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 2: us about the Black Dahlia case. Nobody, you know, I 103 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 2: guess there's still people alive that had an attachment the 104 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 2: Black Dalia case. They'd be ancient by now. You know 105 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 2: what is it about this case that continues to resonate? 106 00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 2: And you know that that my college students at Mudel 107 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 2: College have an interest in. 108 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 1: This is the twenty eight years. We're coming up on 109 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 1: the twenty eight twenty anniversary anniversary. 110 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, the day after Christmas in nineteen ninety six day. 111 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:19,239 Speaker 1: And that's the thing. So December twenty six, nineteen ninety six, 112 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 1: five point fifty two am, Patsy Ramsey calls nine to 113 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 1: one one to report her daughter missing from the home 114 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 1: that they lived in, and there's a ransom note. Ransom notes, 115 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: oftentimes do not occur like this. They rarely are very long, 116 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 1: and they most assuredly are not written at the place 117 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 1: of the kidnapping because the individuals committing the kidnapping want 118 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 1: to kidnap the individual and get out of the premises, 119 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: so they don't wake anybody else that could stop them. 120 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 1: They don't sit down at the bar and start writing 121 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 1: out a long note and practicing it. So there were 122 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 1: things about this case that immediately drew attention. But again, 123 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: you've got a little girl. And I believe one of 124 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 1: the reasons this John b And and Ramsey case got coverage 125 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 1: the way that it did one is that it happened 126 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 1: during what is usually a slow news time between Christmas 127 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: and New year's people are at home, they're on vacation, 128 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: or they're off for the holidays with extra time, and 129 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 1: so there's not a lot of news breaking. And this did. 130 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 1: And as you had families together for the holidays, they 131 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: focused in on this little girl. 132 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 2: Holy they it smokes. I had not thought it. Only 133 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 2: a news guy would come up with that, because for me, 134 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 2: I didn't. I'm just having this moment right now. I know. 135 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 2: I guess other people have thought about it. It's not 136 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 2: something that my brain's not wired like yours is, because 137 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 2: if you but no, what I'm saying, brother, is that 138 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:04,559 Speaker 2: you know what it's like to be at radio station, 139 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 2: television station during the holidays. Everything is kind of it's 140 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 2: kind of put on autopole, it isn't it. 141 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: It's a skeletal shift. And when you've got a news 142 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 1: story like this that people come in. This is a 143 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 1: story that got attention because of the videos that existed 144 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: of the little girl. If you remember, whenever a story 145 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 1: is told on television, in particular on news, there has 146 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 1: to be what is called b roll, that is footage 147 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 1: of the individual that runs while the newscasters are reporting 148 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 1: what took place. Well, oftentimes you don't have a lot 149 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 1: of video. You have still pictures, you know, especially if children, 150 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: you have family pictures and things like that. But in 151 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 1: this particular case, you had the specter of a little 152 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 1: girl who was made up to look like a young woman. 153 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:57,839 Speaker 1: And to be honest with you, in some of the 154 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 1: videos on stage, they were sexual lifes pictures of little girls, 155 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 1: and that was part of the attraction of the case. 156 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 1: It was almost like the freak show, the side show. 157 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 1: Here's that. You know, you have little girls dressing up 158 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 1: and doing routines. You've got the cowgirl, You've got the 159 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: dinner party. You've got all these different looks in the hair, 160 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:20,840 Speaker 1: of the makeup and all of that going into it. 161 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:23,439 Speaker 1: And every time they told the story, they had video 162 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 1: to run. They had new video to run of Jean 163 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:29,960 Speaker 1: Benet Ramsey. That's why the case got the attention that 164 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:33,719 Speaker 1: it did, because there was so much video of this 165 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 1: little girl. You're seeing her on stage and then you 166 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:41,319 Speaker 1: find out she was murdered the day after Christmas. 167 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, first off, I remember because I was working 168 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 2: with them in Atlanta when this went down. Of course, 169 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 2: I'm you know, we've got our own cases that we're 170 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 2: dealing with. Uh, Coloradom might as well have been on 171 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 2: Mars for me, you know, I mean from just a 172 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 2: practitioner standpoint, And you know, I'd had I'd had cases 173 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 2: involving the little kids that had gotten brutally killed over 174 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:16,319 Speaker 2: the years, and I guess when I compare it professionally, 175 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 2: I'm thinking it's a tragedy. I'm sad that it happened. 176 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 2: But the thing that kind of always infuriated me about 177 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:30,679 Speaker 2: the case is that I had had kids that were 178 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 2: killed and never made it through one or two news cycles, right, 179 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:38,080 Speaker 2: And I always and the you know, the cynic in 180 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 2: me always said, well, yeah, the kids that you had 181 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,239 Speaker 2: that never made it through one or two news cycles, 182 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 2: they were lower socioeconomic kids. They there was not that 183 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 2: that you know, that whatever that weird area around the 184 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 2: case was, you know, relative to that, there soon forgot. 185 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 2: And you know, there, unless you've got family that just 186 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 2: stays on, stays on it and they're begging, they're pleading, 187 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 2: you know, for help, it's going to disappear, you know, 188 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 2: out of the news cycle. And that didn't happen here. 189 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 2: And then there's that salacious aspect. One more confession I 190 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 2: have to make here is that the first time that 191 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 2: I remember seeing the videography of gen Berenet in life, 192 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 2: at these at these things, the pageant things. I never 193 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 2: seen a thing like in my life. I really I was. 194 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 2: I was shocked. I think a lot of people were, 195 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:37,720 Speaker 2: you know, and it takes quite a bit to shock me, 196 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 2: but I saw it and I was like, dude, this 197 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 2: is this is like bordering on like soft porn, you know, 198 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 2: in a way, and it was I found it. I 199 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 2: hate the word offensive because people use that. It just 200 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 2: it shocked me, I think to a great degree because 201 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 2: I'm just thinking, Okay, You've got a young girl walking 202 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 2: around with all of this makeup on her face and 203 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 2: the hair done up, and she's in a bathing suit 204 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 2: in public amongst all of this, and I had to know, 205 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:18,680 Speaker 2: I had to assume that it wasn't just like fellow 206 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 2: competitors that were in the room. There were going to 207 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 2: be other people and you've literally got all of these 208 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 2: people that are there. I would assume that people could 209 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 2: walk in off the street or you, yeah, donate to something. 210 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 2: You never know who's going to be in a room. 211 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 1: Like that, Dave, and it's ripe for predators. One thing 212 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 1: that came out of the John Banay Ramsey murder and 213 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:44,440 Speaker 1: investigation was all of a sudden, there was this huge 214 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 1: spotlight on these beauty pageants for children, and while they 215 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 1: did exist, it wasn't something a lot of people knew 216 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:57,199 Speaker 1: about because well, it's expensive. You mentioned the socioeconomic group 217 00:13:57,840 --> 00:13:59,439 Speaker 1: of some of the individuals you were talking about that 218 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 1: didn't even make it through two news cycles. Well, imagine here. 219 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 1: Now we've got rich people who are charting up their 220 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 1: own little girls, putting them on stage, and it's expensive 221 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 1: to do. They travel, they do lessons, they have choreographers 222 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 1: and singing teachers and all that. I mean, there is 223 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: a whole business built up around this. And I believe 224 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 1: after the death of John Bna Ramsay, after the coverage 225 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 1: of her murder, that the television show Toddlers and Tierras was. 226 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 1: I believe that was born out of that. 227 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 2: And yeah, it took off like a rocket ship. 228 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: Because that show was launched in two thousand and nine. 229 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 1: I looked it up. 230 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm glad you did, because I got to tell 231 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 2: you I was I a Kim and I in the 232 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 2: wake of all that was Jean Benet because you know, 233 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 2: by the time at that show premiered, and I think 234 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 2: it was like, I don't know, I can't remember what 235 00:14:57,080 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 2: network it was on. Was it Discovery or something, I 236 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 2: have no idea, but yeah, TLC and you know, and 237 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 2: I was thinking about how obscene, how obscene i'd found 238 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 2: it earlier. And I'm not approved, don't get me wrong, 239 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 2: but we're talking about babies here, yeah, you know, and 240 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 2: the fact that this was going on and that there 241 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 2: was a and you had other things that came came 242 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 2: came down the pike after that. 243 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 1: You gotta remember, a show becomes a hit when it 244 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 1: has a star, when it has a breakout star, whether 245 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 1: in this case with Honey Boo Boo came out. 246 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 2: I was about to say the same thing Tyler Santierras. 247 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 1: She was the star and her mom, you know, they 248 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 1: all made that and got their own show. And going 249 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 1: back to Jehan Bna Ramsay, Now that was our first 250 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 1: peak behind the curtain. I didn't know anything about those 251 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 1: pageants until I knew there were pageants for kids. I did, 252 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 1: you know, at the local level, you'll have them, you know, 253 00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 1: at your local gym or whatever where you know, and 254 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 1: the girls go up there. But I didn't know it 255 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 1: was a whole industry built up around. 256 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 2: I mean, you've always had You've always had these pageants 257 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 2: like you know, Miss Little Miss Fourth of July or 258 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 2: anything like that, and little girls kind of parade out 259 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 2: there and that sort of thing, and somebody selected. But no, 260 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 2: this is on a different this is a different level. 261 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 2: You're not I don't know how to describe it, and 262 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 2: I'm probably wrong for even attempting to, but it just 263 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 2: it's like, I don't know, you know, are you Are 264 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:35,359 Speaker 2: you trying to get your kid to get a sponsorship, 265 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 2: you know, to sell items? Is there a way that 266 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 2: you're gonna cycle back into this so that you're making money, 267 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 2: because it goes to this idea that you have to 268 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 2: be really wealthy to do this the extent all of 269 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 2: the lessons. Look, my kids took dance lessons, and just 270 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 2: that in and of itself is very expensive and it's 271 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 2: a commitment. We're not talking about simply dance, Dave. We're 272 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 2: talking about performance. We're talking about vocal lessons. We're talking 273 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 2: about the ability to go out and strut about on stage, 274 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 2: and then a child's ability to You've got some guy 275 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:16,920 Speaker 2: in a tuxedo, which is kind of creepy to me too, 276 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:21,399 Speaker 2: with the you know, the televangelist hair, and he's standing 277 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:23,879 Speaker 2: there in the tuxedo and he's got the microphone and 278 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 2: he's asking these little girls questions, you know, that sort 279 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 2: of thing, and it's it's this huge production. I don't know, 280 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:33,639 Speaker 2: it was just it was very odd to me, the 281 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 2: whole set of circumstances. And so from an investigative perspective, 282 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:43,199 Speaker 2: when this thing, you know, you know, you begin to 283 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:47,399 Speaker 2: peel the onion here, my mind automatically goes to that. 284 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:51,360 Speaker 2: And I think probably a lot of people, I'm sure 285 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 2: a lot of people, because I've talked to other people 286 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:58,160 Speaker 2: in law enforcement investigations who kind of had the same 287 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:05,919 Speaker 2: opinion that I did that who could have been occupying 288 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:10,680 Speaker 2: the spaces in those audiences that would want to harm 289 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 2: a young girl like this? Who is it that's out 290 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 2: there that would have done this, Who would have the 291 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:20,919 Speaker 2: nerve to do it, Who would have been able to 292 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 2: plan something like this? And what even made it even 293 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 2: more chilling, is it in a town like Boulder that's 294 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 2: not a gigantic place, you still had out there somewhere 295 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:45,399 Speaker 2: someone that had the intestinal fortitude to go into a 296 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 2: home and take a little girl out of her bed 297 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 2: than into the basement where she is assaulted and choked 298 00:18:55,800 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 2: out the cord with a highly complay Not so Dave 299 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 2: as you remember, You and I made the trip up 300 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:22,880 Speaker 2: to Nashville back in May twenty twenty four where we 301 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 2: went to crime con. Oh yeah, and we've been to 302 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 2: a couple of them together. Now, we did Orlando, then 303 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 2: we did We've done Nashville, and David, I had something happen. 304 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 2: Orlando was pretty pretty amazing, you know, because of the 305 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 2: Idaho case and speaking, but you know, I had something 306 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:48,120 Speaker 2: that was equally amazing and it kind of came out 307 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:52,159 Speaker 2: of the blue both of these. While while was a 308 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 2: crime con in Nashville back in May. First off, I 309 00:19:57,080 --> 00:19:59,880 Speaker 2: got asked by Ashley Banfield if I would join her 310 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 2: on for an interview. And just so folks understand, when 311 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:09,479 Speaker 2: you're when you're you do things in media, you develop 312 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:13,120 Speaker 2: relationships with certain people, with certain presenters. Uh. I love 313 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:16,159 Speaker 2: that about the British. They use the term presenter with 314 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 2: certain presenters and if you are reliable in what you do, 315 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:24,679 Speaker 2: they'll call you to do other things. And so actually 316 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 2: people reached out to me and asked me if I 317 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 2: would join her, you know, for an interview. And then 318 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 2: as I approached, I looked over and I saw Katherine Ramslin, 319 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 2: who I've known. I've known Katherine for a long time. 320 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 2: We've actually been on panels before at Ducane University where 321 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:48,959 Speaker 2: doctor Cyril Wack was and they wanted me to talk 322 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:53,119 Speaker 2: about serial killers. Well, Catherine, as you can imagine, doesn't 323 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 2: say anything about Idaho. Because Coburger went to school there, 324 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 2: doesn't mean that she, you know, has some kind of 325 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 2: side knowledge, but she wants to stay clear of that, 326 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 2: as I can imagine. 327 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,679 Speaker 1: But just to be very clear on Ramdlin, BTK was 328 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 1: her big thing, but she also was a teacher at 329 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 1: the college where Coburger attended in Pennsylvania, and they do 330 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,920 Speaker 1: know one another, which yeah, they do. Why she stays 331 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: out of Idaho just. 332 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, listen, I can't blame her. I wouldn't touch that 333 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 2: with a vaccinated crowbar. If I were her, she'd be 334 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 2: wise to stay away from it. And I think that 335 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:34,400 Speaker 2: she's and she's a pretty bright lady, and she's exercised 336 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,159 Speaker 2: that to this point. So it's tough to be in 337 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 2: that position. I can't imagine, because everybody's after for an interview, 338 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 2: so I sat down and we didn't talk about Coberg. 339 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 2: We talked about something else, relative serial Killers with Ashley Banfield. 340 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 2: That same day, I got asked to join a panel 341 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:58,160 Speaker 2: that night, and again I was surprised, Dave, because on 342 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:04,120 Speaker 2: that panel I found myself seated next to John Ramsey. 343 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,880 Speaker 2: I've never met the man. I never have. So that 344 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:12,159 Speaker 2: panel was with Court TV. It was myself, Julia Grant, 345 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 2: and Vinnipolitan and here I am. And immediately I sent 346 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 2: you the picture I think I did just a while ago, 347 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:26,880 Speaker 2: and I'm immediately John Ramsey is immediately to my right, 348 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:30,919 Speaker 2: and so and you know, I talked to him directly, 349 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 2: you know, not before the thing, but during the interview process, 350 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:38,439 Speaker 2: and spoke to him and you know, and talked about, 351 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:42,359 Speaker 2: you know, the possibility of DNA playing into the resolution 352 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:48,199 Speaker 2: in his daughter's, uh, his daughter's homicide case. I was 353 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 2: kind of shocked when that happened. I had no idea 354 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 2: that some kind of documentary was going to be coming out. 355 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 2: But you know, just reflectively, you have these little moments 356 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 2: in time that kind of you know, present them. So 357 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 2: health did I tell you, Dave, I don't remember Again 358 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 2: my kind of a weird connection the night that she died, 359 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,439 Speaker 2: I was on duty, uh at the m's office as 360 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 2: an investigator, and we started getting phone calls from all 361 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 2: over the country and it was I mean, we had 362 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 2: calls coming in from New York Fox. Obviously CNN, which 363 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 2: was in Atlanta at the time, doesn't exist anymore. And 364 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 2: then local news media they wanted to know information about 365 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 2: her death. And the thing about it is it wasn't 366 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 2: reported because she's a hospice patient. So that's how we 367 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:39,160 Speaker 2: found out that she had passed away. 368 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 1: Okay, so wait a minute, very just if you're in 369 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 1: hospice care, it doesn't get reported like a normal Deathitely. 370 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 2: The hospice hospice nurse handles everything souper and nuts theready 371 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,440 Speaker 2: know that you have terminal diagnosis, so you go under 372 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:58,120 Speaker 2: into hospice care, and so the hospice nurse actually winds 373 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 2: up signing the death certificate, which is kind of interesting 374 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:04,400 Speaker 2: little thing that takes place, and everything is pre prepared, 375 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 2: you know, funeral services and all that stuff, and it's 376 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 2: not even reportable, you know, to to the corner of 377 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 2: the medical examiner and mini jurisdictiones. It certainly wasn't in Atlanta, 378 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 2: So we started getting this scuff. So I've had these 379 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:22,679 Speaker 2: kind of weird, kind of you know, little involvements with 380 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 2: the case. I appeared on a program we'd see in 381 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:31,159 Speaker 2: CNN when Como was still there, and we taped for 382 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 2: an entire day, and that was actually in response to 383 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,360 Speaker 2: do you remember the thing that CBS did and they 384 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:41,639 Speaker 2: wound up getting sued. 385 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:43,680 Speaker 1: For where they pointed finger at the brother. 386 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, they wound up and sued for like seven hundred 387 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 2: million dollars or something, and they had to know that 388 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 2: that was coming. But CNN did a thing. They asked 389 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 2: me to be on a panel with that, and I 390 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 2: was with a guy that's one of the responding officers. 391 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,399 Speaker 2: He's retired now, the elderly gentleman, and then to a 392 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 2: writer and a reporter that day, and I remember sitting 393 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 2: there and talking about DNA with Como all those many 394 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:13,919 Speaker 2: years ago, you know, when that case actually happened. They 395 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,240 Speaker 2: actually flew me up to New York to take that thing. 396 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 2: So I've had these, you know, these kind of weird 397 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 2: little peripheral things that have gone on. It's not a 398 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,200 Speaker 2: case that I have necessarily sought out. As a matter 399 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 2: of fact, it's one of the things that I've kind 400 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:36,680 Speaker 2: of fled from because of I think the biggest thing 401 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 2: for me is knowing what I know of the dead 402 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:43,440 Speaker 2: and how I've always felt that there was a real 403 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:46,680 Speaker 2: disservice on the part of the media about these other 404 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 2: cases that are out there, these people that don't have 405 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 2: these kinds of means and their precious little angel gets killed, 406 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,879 Speaker 2: and don't they don't get the same coverage. I always 407 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,120 Speaker 2: found that very I think, you know, at one point 408 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:00,080 Speaker 2: in time, I think there's probably more now, but thin 409 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 2: at one point time I've done account. It's like there's 410 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 2: been like twenty six different books at one point time 411 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 2: that we're written about John, but that number is probably 412 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 2: gone up by this point toime. I'm thinking, how much 413 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 2: can you say? You know? 414 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,680 Speaker 1: How much we remember that? There were so many odd 415 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,879 Speaker 1: things taking place. You had the wealthy family that seems 416 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,119 Speaker 1: to have it all. You know, they have the money, 417 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:24,120 Speaker 1: they have the means, and then they have the sidebar 418 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 1: thing of doing the toddlers and doing the kitty pageant shows, 419 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:30,879 Speaker 1: and I mean that's an odd little thing anyway. And 420 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 1: then of course you have a child that well, okay, 421 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 1: you have the nine to one one called with the 422 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:40,160 Speaker 1: ransom note, Joe, That in and of itself is going 423 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:42,720 Speaker 1: to be an eye catcher because now we have all 424 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 1: of it. You know, how many times do we do 425 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:48,159 Speaker 1: stories where a child is kidnapped or taken and murdered 426 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 1: and we don't have a note, we don't have anything 427 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 1: we have this child was in this place and now 428 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:58,280 Speaker 1: they're not even in the case of oh his name 429 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 1: is Mark Klass Class's dad. You know, when Polly was 430 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,440 Speaker 1: stolen out of her bedroom in the middle of the night, 431 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:08,400 Speaker 1: right and there was no ransom note left and uh, 432 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 1: and it got a lot of coverage because nobody believed him, 433 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 1: every thought he was lying. No child gets stolen in 434 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,399 Speaker 1: the middle of the night from a slumber party. You know. 435 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:21,640 Speaker 1: This guy's obviously did you know? And I always felt 436 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,119 Speaker 1: bad for Marc Class because of the way that was covered. 437 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 1: But this case, Joe, this case, the Jean Benet Ramsey 438 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 1: case has not been covered in that way. There have 439 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,640 Speaker 1: been certainly people pointing fingers, but you don't hear it. 440 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 1: You don't hear it the way you would think. Look, man, 441 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 1: we've got a six year old stole that is kidnapped 442 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 1: allegedly the night of you know, on December twenty sixth. 443 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 1: The phone call comes in before six am. They're up 444 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 1: and packing to go on a trip. They had a 445 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 1: planned trip to go to visit family up in Michigan. 446 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 1: I believe Michigan and things I learned from watching this 447 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,679 Speaker 1: Netflix special that we were talking. But Joe, let's just 448 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 1: start with there were seventeen detailed facts that this reporter 449 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:08,639 Speaker 1: was talking about new things. There are things they were 450 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 1: unaware of about the John beIN a Ramsey case. I 451 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:16,200 Speaker 1: found it fascinating too, And it's the first one talking 452 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 1: about the nine to one one call that Patsy Ramsey 453 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 1: makes about her daughter being kidnapped and the ransom note. 454 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 1: I really have problems with both. I didn't believe her 455 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:32,959 Speaker 1: nine one one call at all. Even now, all these 456 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:34,640 Speaker 1: years later, I listened to it, and I still don't 457 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 1: believe it because it doesn't make sense from what you 458 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,959 Speaker 1: and I have based on history, based on the stories 459 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 1: we've covered. It doesn't make sense from this very beginning, 460 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 1: does it to you? Well? 461 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 2: It is. It is certainly bizarre, I'd have to say. 462 00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 2: And I think in addition to that, when police do 463 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 2: arrive out there, it's not from Jump Street and that's 464 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 2: that's where everything, that's where it's at the at that moment, Tom, 465 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 2: you're either gonna meet with success or you're gonna meet 466 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 2: with failure at that point in time, and the police, 467 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:31,480 Speaker 2: to their everlasting discredit, treated they they did the worst 468 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 2: thing that you can possibly do. They treat it like 469 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 2: it is actually a kidnapping or what they believe is 470 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,240 Speaker 2: you know, how many how many kidnappings do the Boulder 471 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 2: Police Department handle with notes? Just let that sink in 472 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 2: just for a second. So if somebody is trying to 473 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 2: feeds you information, okay, and you're gullible enough to buy 474 00:29:55,800 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 2: into that, if you don't have any kind of experience, 475 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 2: if you don't walk in assuming that everybody in the 476 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 2: location is guilty to begin with, you're gonna have a problem. 477 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 2: You're gonna have a problem. And and when they got there. 478 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 2: I love the phraseology here because you know, in the 479 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 2: author's point, she actually alludes to the fact that, and 480 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 2: this was her phraseology that this retired retired police officer stated, 481 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 2: we did a cursory search what you did in the house, Joe, Yeah, 482 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 2: I know if if you're telling me you've got a 483 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 2: six year old that has been kidnapped, dude, it ain't 484 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 2: gonna be a cursory search. I'm flipping beds over, I'm 485 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:42,240 Speaker 2: looking everywhere because if I'm asking, if I'm asking family, 486 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:45,960 Speaker 2: where did you look? You know how? And what what 487 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 2: is this weird house that you live in? It's so 488 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 2: oddly designed with it's got like a butler's entrance and 489 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 2: all a staircase and adjacent staircase. It kind of winds 490 00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:00,040 Speaker 2: around in all these funky ways and everything where it 491 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 2: was that you've looked. 492 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 1: The reason is like that, and the house was added 493 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 1: on to it was built, and then it was added 494 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 1: on too over a period of time, which gave it 495 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 1: a really odd build. But it also gives me something else, Joe, 496 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 1: because of the odd nature of the structure, because of 497 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: the staircases going in different areas and rooms not part 498 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 1: of the plan since it was all you would have 499 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 1: to know your way around this house to actually be 500 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 1: able to find where you're going to get the child, 501 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 1: to find your way back out, all the while trying 502 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 1: not to wake everybody up. Kind of important to know 503 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:38,800 Speaker 1: your way around the house, and to be honest with you, 504 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 1: even now after looking at it, looking at diagrams and 505 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,040 Speaker 1: everything else that I've seen in the daylight, I still 506 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 1: could not find my way to the the It's flowers 507 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:50,480 Speaker 1: for Algernon Man. I would not beat the mouse on 508 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: that maze. 509 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:55,320 Speaker 2: No, No, there's no way I could not. I could 510 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 2: not make my way through this place, even when I 511 00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 2: was in when I had a top mental acuity, when 512 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,680 Speaker 2: I was a younger guy, being able to kind of 513 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 2: make my way around, because it is like a maze 514 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 2: in their day. You've got all these odd twisting turns, 515 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 2: You've got points of entrance and exit. And it would 516 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 2: seem as though that whoever was involved in this case, 517 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 2: and I'm talking about the perpetrator, would have to have 518 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 2: a very specific knowledge of how you know, the the 519 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 2: groundwork is kind of laid out here because it's not 520 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 2: something you just kind of blind listen. You know, if 521 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 2: you if you live in a sixties ranch style home, 522 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 2: you know, like many of us do. It doesn't take 523 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 2: a rocket scientist kind of navigate your way through one 524 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,280 Speaker 2: of those homes. You know, it's a box, all right, 525 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,280 Speaker 2: and you've got a central hallway that other rooms you 526 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 2: know kind of you know, exit off of that ain't 527 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 2: what we're talking about here. We're talking about multiple floors. 528 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:05,520 Speaker 2: You've got multiple ways to access these floors, and then 529 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 2: once you even arrive at the floor, it seems disorienting 530 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 2: in in that environment as well. So yeah, for me, 531 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:19,760 Speaker 2: it was that that's an odd bit of of it's 532 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 2: a it's an odd bit of information coming in. And 533 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:25,720 Speaker 2: then just going back just for a second about this 534 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 2: so called cursory evaluation at the scene. How how how 535 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 2: is it that you know you can justify looking for 536 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 2: a six year old, but yet you're not ripping this 537 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,480 Speaker 2: place of shreads to try to see if she could 538 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 2: be anywhere else? Is it simply based upon this note 539 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 2: that has been left that I think was found on 540 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,720 Speaker 2: one of the treads of the stair of staircase immediately 541 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 2: adjacent to the kitchen. For me, I want I'm not 542 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 2: going to believe anything my lying eyes, as Nancy says, 543 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 2: my lion eyes are telling me I have to physically 544 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 2: physically explore the space and try to understand it. Because 545 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 2: like it or not, that house, even if it is 546 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:17,120 Speaker 2: a kidnapped location and it's not a homicide David, is 547 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:21,439 Speaker 2: crim scene. This is a crime scene and should be 548 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:27,319 Speaker 2: managed in the same way as if you had a 549 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:31,480 Speaker 2: multiple homicide in there because every bit of particulate evidence 550 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:35,480 Speaker 2: that might be in there. And to further exacerbate the situation, 551 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:40,719 Speaker 2: the family was not removed from the house. Not only 552 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 2: let me double down on that. Not only were they 553 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:48,719 Speaker 2: not removed, they invited friends over. They invited friends over 554 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 2: to this location during his time. And listen, I know 555 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,600 Speaker 2: everybody needs support, and I know that everybody. You know 556 00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:59,800 Speaker 2: you're grieving and you're worried, and you know there's another 557 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 2: place that that can be done. You need to release 558 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 2: this environment or the police need to take control of 559 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 2: the scene. And one of the first things that you 560 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 2: do this is like crime scene investigation one oh one. 561 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,920 Speaker 2: You remove everybody that has nothing to do with this 562 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 2: case out of that environment. You might allow them to 563 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,920 Speaker 2: grab a coat, but you go with them as they're 564 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:28,400 Speaker 2: grabbing a coat, give me the keys. You know, because 565 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 2: at this point, the family's not necessarily under suspicion. You 566 00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 2: know that this is a central point. They've called it in. 567 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:39,880 Speaker 2: Their child is missing, so you don't necessarily This is 568 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,840 Speaker 2: an interesting question, do you need a warrant at this 569 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,600 Speaker 2: point in time to search the house? I'm thinking probably not, 570 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 2: because this is why if if this is a kidnapping. 571 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 2: You're not looking at this from the perspective of a 572 00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:03,359 Speaker 2: homicide scene. And the one difference now this is this 573 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:07,680 Speaker 2: comes down to child welfare. This is an emergent situation. 574 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:11,000 Speaker 2: You're doing everything you can in order to try to 575 00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:14,040 Speaker 2: find this child that might be in this massive home. 576 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:17,399 Speaker 2: And listen, I don't I don't know that everybody out 577 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,359 Speaker 2: there fully appreciates how big this thing is and how 578 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:37,839 Speaker 2: complex it is. That she was assaulted. You know, she's 579 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 2: got this rather ghastly injury. You think about the injuries 580 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:51,040 Speaker 2: certainly to to her to her neck. But just so 581 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:54,920 Speaker 2: that if for those that haven't read her her autopsy report, 582 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,239 Speaker 2: I'll go ahead and kind of give you the thumbnail. 583 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:01,360 Speaker 2: It's they list this as cranial cerebral rama, which means 584 00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:05,319 Speaker 2: that you have the cranium okay, the skull itself, and 585 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:10,120 Speaker 2: then as a result of the cranium being fractured, this 586 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:16,360 Speaker 2: travels through to the brain, the cerebral okay, the cerebraulm. 587 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:19,480 Speaker 2: So it's, uh, this is how it's it's kind of 588 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:21,480 Speaker 2: laid out. Let me lay this out for for all 589 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:27,799 Speaker 2: of our friends. So it's subsection ROM numberal two it's 590 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:33,680 Speaker 2: cranial cerebral injuries. Subsection a scalp contusion, which means there's 591 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:38,359 Speaker 2: an overlying bruise okay, of the scalp, and then b 592 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:43,360 Speaker 2: there's a linear comminuted fracture of the right of the 593 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 2: right side of the skull. See linear pattern contusions of 594 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:54,640 Speaker 2: the right cerebral hemisphere. Okay. So what they're saying is 595 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:58,640 Speaker 2: it's this underlying contusion on the surface the right aspect. 596 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:03,200 Speaker 2: If you'll put your your fingertips go to the top 597 00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:06,200 Speaker 2: of your head and move them slowly down directly above 598 00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:11,719 Speaker 2: superior to your right ear, that's where this insult is 599 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:16,759 Speaker 2: going to be. So right cerebral hemisphere. She's got a 600 00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:22,480 Speaker 2: sub arachnoid and subdural hemorrhage, says subdura. The dura is 601 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:26,560 Speaker 2: the sack that our brain floats around in. And for 602 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,360 Speaker 2: those that have never seen a dura, I'll tell you 603 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 2: what it looks like. It looks a lot like a 604 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:38,799 Speaker 2: placenta in my mind. And it's the brain stays contained 605 00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:43,880 Speaker 2: within the dura sack and it's it's essentially brain is 606 00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:47,479 Speaker 2: bathed in cerebral spinal fluid, okay, and it also acts 607 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:50,600 Speaker 2: as a shock absorber. So if you if you bounce 608 00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:54,920 Speaker 2: your head off of something, your brain is not merely 609 00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,960 Speaker 2: bouncing off of these bony walls of your skull. Okay, 610 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:02,319 Speaker 2: so you've got this zact this fluid filled that your 611 00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,080 Speaker 2: brain is contained in inside of the hard outer shell 612 00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:09,359 Speaker 2: of your of your of your skull. So she's got 613 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:13,719 Speaker 2: a subdural hemorrhage, which means that's beneath the dura and 614 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:16,239 Speaker 2: the brain. And then you have a suberractnoid and the 615 00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:19,359 Speaker 2: iractnoid surface is actually the inner surface of your brain. 616 00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:24,719 Speaker 2: So this hemorrhage translates, it goes into the brain essentially. 617 00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:30,600 Speaker 2: And then she's got small contusions to the tips of 618 00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:36,880 Speaker 2: the temporal lobes, which means the temporal the lower you know, 619 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,640 Speaker 2: below the top of the head. You know where your 620 00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:45,120 Speaker 2: temporal bone is, So there was contusion in there as well, Dave, 621 00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,920 Speaker 2: So this is this a very nasty injury that she sustained. 622 00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:51,560 Speaker 2: It would have been a tremendous amount of force that 623 00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,520 Speaker 2: she was subjected to with whatever this object is. And 624 00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:58,520 Speaker 2: they they never really came up with a solid answer 625 00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:01,759 Speaker 2: about what had generally this And yeah, I guess you 626 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:05,000 Speaker 2: could look at it and say that there's a potential 627 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:09,399 Speaker 2: that a mag light and if you're not familiar back 628 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:14,920 Speaker 2: in ninety six, back in ninety six, they had mag lights. 629 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:19,400 Speaker 2: I wish I still had one that are massive, and 630 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,160 Speaker 2: that the cops stopped carrying them. And do you want 631 00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:26,520 Speaker 2: to know why stop cops stopped stopped carrying them? Cops 632 00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:33,799 Speaker 2: carried them because you they can be used as a 633 00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:36,839 Speaker 2: bludgeoning device and it's very convenient. So if you're having 634 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:40,799 Speaker 2: a fight with a prisoner or suspect, there are There's 635 00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:44,200 Speaker 2: one particularly infamous case out of I can't remember the 636 00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:48,520 Speaker 2: guy's name, saved my life out of Detroit, and this 637 00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:52,279 Speaker 2: guy was literally what we were what we used to 638 00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:55,400 Speaker 2: refer to as being brained. He was brained by a 639 00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:58,960 Speaker 2: cop with this mag light. And I could get that 640 00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:01,799 Speaker 2: guy's name, but there was major lawsuit that resulted from 641 00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:04,680 Speaker 2: that case, and that involved a mag light. He's beaten 642 00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:08,240 Speaker 2: with a flashlight and it creates a really nasty injury, 643 00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:11,040 Speaker 2: and he was beaten multiple times. He had, you know, 644 00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:15,560 Speaker 2: his skull or scalp was literally split open in multiple 645 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:18,600 Speaker 2: locations because of the lacerations that you know, and then 646 00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:21,880 Speaker 2: he had all these communicating injuries that worked. So you 647 00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:26,920 Speaker 2: think about in ninety six, that type of flashlight existed 648 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:30,359 Speaker 2: back then, and apparently the Ramsays had one in their home. 649 00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:33,279 Speaker 2: You know what else could generate this kind of this 650 00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:37,280 Speaker 2: kind of insult. Well, I guess if you're thinking cylindrical, 651 00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:40,239 Speaker 2: the first thing that pops to mind for me could 652 00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:43,319 Speaker 2: be like maybe a baseball bat, you know, that would 653 00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:46,120 Speaker 2: generate this kind of this kind of energy. The thing 654 00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:49,600 Speaker 2: about it is is that with mag lights, dependent upon 655 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:53,000 Speaker 2: how it's utilized. If if you look down the shaft 656 00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:55,560 Speaker 2: of an old mag light, it's actually textured. It's got 657 00:41:55,560 --> 00:42:00,680 Speaker 2: almost a diamond pattern to it, and when you strike 658 00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:04,120 Speaker 2: strike a surface like the skin with a mag light 659 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:08,400 Speaker 2: or anything that's textured, it actually translates that pattern to 660 00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:12,200 Speaker 2: the overlying skin. So you would shave the hair, and 661 00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:14,160 Speaker 2: you know, we shave the hair and the Morgan. We 662 00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:18,400 Speaker 2: take pictures of these things, of these little insults, because 663 00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:22,920 Speaker 2: it it physically connects this event, you know, with all 664 00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:24,200 Speaker 2: that's left behind. 665 00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:28,040 Speaker 1: With a case like this, I had no idea. I 666 00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:36,759 Speaker 1: really didn't. Now I'm trying to for a case that 667 00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:39,040 Speaker 1: has gone on for twenty eight years that we still 668 00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:44,840 Speaker 1: don't have an answer. We now have the Bolder Police 669 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:50,800 Speaker 1: Department that has been rightly so run over the coals. 670 00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:54,960 Speaker 1: They did a horrible job from the very beginning. Everything 671 00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:57,799 Speaker 1: about the setup was wrong, the very from the nine 672 00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:00,560 Speaker 1: to one one call until today. You know that you 673 00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:03,280 Speaker 1: cannot make up for what they did in the first 674 00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:06,200 Speaker 1: hours of this case. I don't know how you could 675 00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:10,360 Speaker 1: ever get based on what happened with her body, Joe 676 00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:13,319 Speaker 1: and the common sense factory. You I learned early on 677 00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:14,880 Speaker 1: that you have to take that out that you know, 678 00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:17,799 Speaker 1: it's just facts. It's not what you think, it's not 679 00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:20,080 Speaker 1: what you think you might have had. You actually have 680 00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:22,239 Speaker 1: to have real facts. So I can think all day 681 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:25,920 Speaker 1: long that Patsy Ramsey sat at the kitchen table and 682 00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:27,759 Speaker 1: wrote that note and practiced it and wrote it. And 683 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:29,799 Speaker 1: if I can't prove it, I can't bring that up 684 00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:30,319 Speaker 1: against her. 685 00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:33,360 Speaker 2: I get that that, you know, that's supposition is not 686 00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:35,319 Speaker 2: worth a gunpowder blow to hell unless. 687 00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:38,080 Speaker 1: You Yeah, and now we've got the strangling and we've 688 00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:42,120 Speaker 1: got the destruction of her skull to this little six 689 00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:46,279 Speaker 1: year old child. Yeah, what about the DNA, Joe, There's 690 00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:50,160 Speaker 1: got to be DNA in here that that somehow it 691 00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:52,759 Speaker 1: tells us somebody other than the Ramseys had something to 692 00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:53,680 Speaker 1: do with this, right. 693 00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:57,759 Speaker 2: Yeah, there is foreign DNA and you know they did 694 00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:04,120 Speaker 2: do they did swabs. Obviously I'm both well the occupants 695 00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:07,000 Speaker 2: of the home. I don't Here's the thing. I don't know. 696 00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:10,400 Speaker 2: I really wonder if, first off, okay, here's something I 697 00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:13,000 Speaker 2: want to throw out to you. Man. Do they have 698 00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:15,040 Speaker 2: the names of everyone that was in that home? 699 00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:17,760 Speaker 1: Wow? Probably? 700 00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:19,840 Speaker 2: I mean that you know you're talking about you know, 701 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:24,400 Speaker 2: we're gonna have cookies Christmas leftover cookie cookies, Christmas cookies 702 00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:29,000 Speaker 2: and coffee while we're sitting around. And here's another thing. 703 00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:32,200 Speaker 2: Let's just say, and this is one of the biggest 704 00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:34,919 Speaker 2: things relative to DNA, and they talk about destruction of DNA. 705 00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:41,080 Speaker 2: If you've got a group of people that are hovering about, 706 00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:43,279 Speaker 2: you know what people like to do when they get 707 00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:47,240 Speaker 2: stressed out, dave I know I do, particularly if I 708 00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:49,160 Speaker 2: can't go out and go for a walk. You know 709 00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:53,080 Speaker 2: what I'm going to do. I'm gonna eat. I'm gonna 710 00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:57,600 Speaker 2: eat and drink coffee. I'm gonna sit around wring my hands, 711 00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:03,480 Speaker 2: talk to myself, talk to other people. They went into 712 00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:07,400 Speaker 2: that kitchen. What if that note was written in the kitchen, 713 00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:11,200 Speaker 2: which some people claim that it was. Well, now you're 714 00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:18,200 Speaker 2: introducing you're introducing foreign DNA into this environment, and you 715 00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:21,480 Speaker 2: might be eradicating anything else that's there. I want everybody 716 00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:25,719 Speaker 2: right now to think about the position you get in 717 00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:30,480 Speaker 2: when you write something on a hard surface. Do you stand? 718 00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:34,360 Speaker 2: Do you stand? Do you sit upright as you write 719 00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:39,560 Speaker 2: and just merely extend your hand and write something down? No, 720 00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:41,880 Speaker 2: you don't do that. You know what you do? You lean? 721 00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:44,239 Speaker 1: You lean. 722 00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:47,400 Speaker 2: Even the oldest images that we have of scribes. You 723 00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:49,840 Speaker 2: think about the monks that are translating the Bible. You 724 00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:52,400 Speaker 2: remember those images, those beautiful images that they'll have the 725 00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:55,160 Speaker 2: boks and they're sitting there and they're at their table 726 00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:58,880 Speaker 2: and they've got their quill and they're writing. They're leaned 727 00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:01,759 Speaker 2: over and very poor writing conditions, and they're generating as 728 00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:06,319 Speaker 2: beautiful calligraphy. You lean when you write. If you even 729 00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:08,960 Speaker 2: go to the bank, our younger listeners are I going 730 00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:12,080 Speaker 2: to remember this? You and I. You go to the 731 00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:15,080 Speaker 2: central desk there that's got that that attached pen that 732 00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:17,680 Speaker 2: never works right, You've got a deposit slip. 733 00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:18,200 Speaker 1: What do you do? 734 00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:21,120 Speaker 2: Well? You lean your if your right hand generally you'll 735 00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:24,920 Speaker 2: lean your left arm on the table, you'll put your 736 00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:30,280 Speaker 2: left hand on the surface of what you're writing, secured 737 00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:33,279 Speaker 2: in place. Then with your right hand. This is and 738 00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:35,640 Speaker 2: of course it would be the reverse of this, but 739 00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:39,120 Speaker 2: you're writing like this. There's multiple points of contact along this. 740 00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:44,520 Speaker 2: So just for me, thinking about an individual being in 741 00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:49,799 Speaker 2: this being in this environment, you know, and you've got 742 00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:53,239 Speaker 2: people coming in and they're they're eating Christmas cakes and 743 00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:56,920 Speaker 2: cookies and drinking coffee. How many years? How many how 744 00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:00,560 Speaker 2: long did they in dwell that space? It was everybody 745 00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:04,239 Speaker 2: was everybody's DNA collected that had anything to do with 746 00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:08,239 Speaker 2: that environment, I don't know. And then even if you 747 00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:11,520 Speaker 2: do collect it, are these and I'm doing air quotes 748 00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:14,759 Speaker 2: here friends? Are these true friends that you would have 749 00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:17,239 Speaker 2: over I don't know. Maybe you guys all played canasta 750 00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:20,160 Speaker 2: once a night, once a week together. I have no idea, 751 00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:24,680 Speaker 2: y'all got right? Is there going to be a significant deposition. 752 00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:26,080 Speaker 1: There? 753 00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:29,040 Speaker 2: Jen, I don't know. I'm sorry, we'll say sorry, I 754 00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:30,720 Speaker 2: have to play sorry grandkids. 755 00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:32,279 Speaker 1: Or the Game of Life at the Game of like, 756 00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:33,280 Speaker 1: I hate that game. 757 00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:37,480 Speaker 2: Day but anyway, playing it every day? 758 00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:38,680 Speaker 1: Baby? Uh? 759 00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:42,879 Speaker 2: You know, you think about that environment in there, and 760 00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:46,399 Speaker 2: what's it? Was it possible that people could have come 761 00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:49,800 Speaker 2: in there? Again, this goes back to our earlier comments 762 00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:56,319 Speaker 2: about securing the scene, brother securing the scene, which is 763 00:47:56,360 --> 00:48:01,560 Speaker 2: a miserable, miserable failure, you know when you think about that. 764 00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:07,680 Speaker 2: Here's another thing I really wonder thinking about contact DNA, 765 00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:10,640 Speaker 2: and there's other areas I kind of want to explore this, 766 00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:16,080 Speaker 2: but I'll see you about contact DNA. Let's say you're 767 00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:20,640 Speaker 2: not gloved. You're not gloved, and I don't care if 768 00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:25,080 Speaker 2: you're talking about carrying a six year old. These stairs 769 00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:31,000 Speaker 2: look really steep to me. Okay, So as you're progressing 770 00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:35,560 Speaker 2: down this twisting staircase and all of this sort of thing, 771 00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:42,640 Speaker 2: and you're toting the body of a child, you have 772 00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:47,960 Speaker 2: to maintain your balance. Are their handrails leading down to 773 00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:52,360 Speaker 2: the basement, right, Well, we know that there's doorknobs. Remember 774 00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:56,880 Speaker 2: they talked about one door was locked, cops went to it, 775 00:48:56,880 --> 00:48:59,040 Speaker 2: it was locked, they didn't try to get into it. 776 00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:02,480 Speaker 2: Remember that that was early on this thing. So that 777 00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:05,240 Speaker 2: means that there are doorknobs that would have been touched. 778 00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:06,680 Speaker 1: Wow. 779 00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:11,000 Speaker 2: Where those doorknobs collected, Where the doors collected I've collected 780 00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:15,920 Speaker 2: doors before. Really, Oh yeah, yeah, I've Yeah, I've been 781 00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:19,080 Speaker 2: a help with it, you know, I'll help take doors down. 782 00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:23,319 Speaker 1: You've got the entire area from her bedroom to where 783 00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:26,680 Speaker 1: her body was found. Yeah, and every possible way to 784 00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:29,440 Speaker 1: get there all would have to have been checked, should 785 00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:33,720 Speaker 1: have been checked. Four good grief? 786 00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:39,120 Speaker 2: Okay, And I listen, And you can't not you the 787 00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:42,880 Speaker 2: universal You cannot make the argument that, well, there's a 788 00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:46,000 Speaker 2: different time. No, we didn't know what we know about DNA. 789 00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:49,960 Speaker 2: That's a load of crap, you know, I'll tell you 790 00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:53,520 Speaker 2: what we did know about. We knew about fingerprints. So 791 00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:56,279 Speaker 2: if you if you even at a at a rudimentary level, 792 00:49:56,280 --> 00:50:00,000 Speaker 2: if you treated this as if DNA did not exist, 793 00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:02,960 Speaker 2: you're looking for Layton prints, which you and I can 794 00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:04,960 Speaker 2: both agree on the fact that that was always our 795 00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:08,319 Speaker 2: fallback position early on, prior to DNA. We always look 796 00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:12,400 Speaker 2: for fingerprints. Who touched those door knobs in that location, 797 00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:19,040 Speaker 2: who touched the rails? Were their foreign prints associated with 798 00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:24,359 Speaker 2: anybody that could have entered into that environment. I mean, 799 00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:26,960 Speaker 2: I think that that's a simple question that should be 800 00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:29,600 Speaker 2: asked and certainly should be answered. You know, for me, 801 00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:33,000 Speaker 2: at least all the possible points because we think about 802 00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:38,480 Speaker 2: points of contact. And one of the best examples I 803 00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:41,640 Speaker 2: can give to people relative to looking for latent prints. 804 00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:45,319 Speaker 2: And I do this exercise with my students. They feel 805 00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:48,439 Speaker 2: so foolish when they do it. I take a little 806 00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:51,240 Speaker 2: bit of statistic prodect. But I'll set up a chair 807 00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:55,919 Speaker 2: in the in front of the classroom and I'll pick 808 00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:58,239 Speaker 2: one student and it has to be a student that 809 00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:04,080 Speaker 2: owns a car. Demonstrate to us how you get in 810 00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:06,799 Speaker 2: the car, and I'll critique them about how they get 811 00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:08,319 Speaker 2: in the car and then what they do when they 812 00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:11,960 Speaker 2: get in the car. Or I will also throw out 813 00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:15,040 Speaker 2: a scenario. You're getting in your friend's car. What do 814 00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:17,840 Speaker 2: you do to get into their car? And you would 815 00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:21,319 Speaker 2: not believe how many points of contact there are just 816 00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:25,400 Speaker 2: getting into a motor vehicle. That the places you have 817 00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:27,480 Speaker 2: to touch, because most of us don't think about that. 818 00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:31,920 Speaker 2: If you've got like a low sports car, for instance, 819 00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:35,440 Speaker 2: you literally have to swing yourself inside of the car. 820 00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:37,799 Speaker 2: People don't think about grabbing the roof or grabbing the 821 00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:40,680 Speaker 2: interior handle because most people don't want to just free 822 00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:43,880 Speaker 2: fall into a sea, so you brace yourself. Same principle 823 00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:47,640 Speaker 2: here if you're carrying an unconscious child or even a 824 00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:50,239 Speaker 2: dead child. At this point in time, you're gonna have 825 00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:55,960 Speaker 2: to balance yourself regardless of how light this individual might be. Okay, 826 00:51:56,600 --> 00:52:00,319 Speaker 2: so just fingerprint evidence, and then of course we can 827 00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:03,279 Speaker 2: go to the next level and talk about DNA. Was 828 00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:06,399 Speaker 2: what was secured? That's the big That's what this all 829 00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:09,680 Speaker 2: comes down to. What was secured at that point. I 830 00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:11,680 Speaker 2: don't know who did this, but I know that there 831 00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:16,040 Speaker 2: was a catastrophic failure when it comes to security of 832 00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:16,560 Speaker 2: the scene. 833 00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:20,680 Speaker 1: We know when you're talking about DNA, Joe, A lot 834 00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:26,560 Speaker 1: of us followed the OJ Simpson trial and all of 835 00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:29,759 Speaker 1: the testimony about DNA. We learned a lot. I say 836 00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:32,759 Speaker 1: we as a people, you know, the population learned a 837 00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:35,440 Speaker 1: lot about DNA. We learned a lot about what can 838 00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:38,960 Speaker 1: be done with DNA. And in the time after the trial, 839 00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:42,319 Speaker 1: it was a regular occurrence on TV shows dealing with 840 00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:46,880 Speaker 1: police working detectives about DNA. This happened two years after 841 00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:49,920 Speaker 1: all of the DNA stuff became a matter of public 842 00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:52,760 Speaker 1: record in the American population. I mean, O. J. Simpson 843 00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:56,640 Speaker 1: is a trial ended in ninety five. But the whole 844 00:52:56,640 --> 00:53:01,920 Speaker 1: thing here is that regardless of all of that, we 845 00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:06,520 Speaker 1: have a child who was taken from her bedroom, was 846 00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:11,800 Speaker 1: beaten strangled, and her dead body was left behind. Then 847 00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:17,680 Speaker 1: a ransom note that's a short novel is left behind 848 00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:20,680 Speaker 1: asking for a very specific amount of money that amounted 849 00:53:20,719 --> 00:53:25,040 Speaker 1: to John Ramsey's bonus that year. We have police on 850 00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:27,759 Speaker 1: the scene from the nine to one to one call 851 00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:32,160 Speaker 1: from Pantsy Ramsey, the mother, and yet nobody bothers to 852 00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:36,319 Speaker 1: secure the scene. Nobody stops new people from coming in, 853 00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:41,560 Speaker 1: nobody searches the entirety of the house. And then after 854 00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:47,880 Speaker 1: hours of being on site, the police person responsible for 855 00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:50,719 Speaker 1: the scene says, hey, John, why don't you take a friend, 856 00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:52,719 Speaker 1: y'all go look and see what you can find, see 857 00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:56,000 Speaker 1: if there's anything missing from this house. And John Ramsey 858 00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:59,480 Speaker 1: goes directly to his daughter's body. He then destroys any 859 00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:03,600 Speaker 1: evidence that was left behind by picking her up and 860 00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:06,719 Speaker 1: carrying her and in front of everybody, laying her down 861 00:54:06,719 --> 00:54:09,120 Speaker 1: in the living room. Might think, and he did. 862 00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:12,920 Speaker 2: And when you say destroy, I'm not neither one of 863 00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:15,480 Speaker 2: us are actually saying a purpose. 864 00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:17,200 Speaker 1: To destroy it. No, No, it's. 865 00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:23,000 Speaker 2: Just the fact that anytime you touch, you touch any 866 00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:26,759 Speaker 2: surface on a body like this, you're going to compromise it. 867 00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:32,560 Speaker 2: And of course that's one of the big problems, compromised evidence, 868 00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:37,239 Speaker 2: compromised physical evidence, the inability to suss this thing out 869 00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:39,839 Speaker 2: load these many years later, and I can tell you this, 870 00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:42,600 Speaker 2: the further down the road that we go, the more 871 00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:48,759 Speaker 2: complex this gets. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is 872 00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:49,759 Speaker 2: Bodybounes