1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:24,116 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey, it's doctor Laurie Santos here. The science says 2 00:00:24,116 --> 00:00:26,436 Speaker 1: that giving a dollar away can make you feel happier 3 00:00:26,476 --> 00:00:28,596 Speaker 1: than spending on yourself, and if you're in the mood 4 00:00:28,596 --> 00:00:31,196 Speaker 1: to make every dollar you donate count this holiday season, 5 00:00:31,396 --> 00:00:34,516 Speaker 1: the Happiness Lab has teamed up with GiveDirectly dot org. 6 00:00:34,836 --> 00:00:36,996 Speaker 1: If we all pull together, we can make a huge 7 00:00:37,036 --> 00:00:39,636 Speaker 1: difference to one African village in twenty twenty four. 8 00:00:39,716 --> 00:00:42,196 Speaker 2: Kibobo, I think is a great place if people want 9 00:00:42,476 --> 00:00:47,196 Speaker 2: somewhere to support people there are living in really desperate situation. 10 00:00:47,556 --> 00:00:48,996 Speaker 2: They lack almost everything. 11 00:00:49,196 --> 00:00:52,596 Speaker 1: Rory Stewart from GiveDirectly dot org says money from Happiness 12 00:00:52,676 --> 00:00:55,396 Speaker 1: Lab listeners will go directly to the people of Kebobo 13 00:00:55,556 --> 00:00:57,876 Speaker 1: in Rwanda, who'll be loved to decide on their own 14 00:00:57,956 --> 00:00:59,996 Speaker 1: how to best spend it to improve their lives. 15 00:01:00,276 --> 00:01:02,476 Speaker 2: Getting a little bit of cash is what will allow 16 00:01:02,556 --> 00:01:05,076 Speaker 2: you to fix your house, buy a cow which could 17 00:01:05,076 --> 00:01:08,036 Speaker 2: provide milk for your family, get a relative who's ill 18 00:01:08,196 --> 00:01:11,716 Speaker 2: to the local hospital. These things that are genuinely life transforming. 19 00:01:12,076 --> 00:01:13,996 Speaker 1: So if you can spare just a few bucks and 20 00:01:14,076 --> 00:01:16,036 Speaker 1: want to join me and other fans of the show 21 00:01:16,116 --> 00:01:18,276 Speaker 1: to help the folks in Cabobo, then go to this 22 00:01:18,396 --> 00:01:23,076 Speaker 1: website give directly dot org slash happiness. That's give directly 23 00:01:23,356 --> 00:01:26,716 Speaker 1: dot org slash happiness. Just a few dollars can make 24 00:01:26,716 --> 00:01:34,516 Speaker 1: a huge difference, Happy Giving. I'm doctor Laurie. 25 00:01:34,316 --> 00:01:37,156 Speaker 3: Santos and I'm Tim Harford and this. 26 00:01:37,116 --> 00:01:40,196 Speaker 1: Is a crossover episode of my podcast The Happiness Lab. 27 00:01:40,436 --> 00:01:44,476 Speaker 3: And my podcast Cautionary Tales. Laurie, is really great to 28 00:01:44,476 --> 00:01:46,916 Speaker 3: be working with you on a couple of crossover episodes. 29 00:01:46,916 --> 00:01:48,836 Speaker 3: So what did you want to cover on this one? 30 00:01:49,076 --> 00:01:51,396 Speaker 1: I thought it'd be fun to talk about holidays and rest. 31 00:01:52,356 --> 00:01:54,756 Speaker 3: Okay, I better warn you that we're all about learning 32 00:01:54,756 --> 00:01:58,036 Speaker 3: from stories of catastrophe on Cautionary Tales, Laurie, So go 33 00:01:58,116 --> 00:01:58,876 Speaker 3: on do your worst. 34 00:01:59,316 --> 00:02:02,076 Speaker 1: Sure. The Happiness Lab is all about the science of 35 00:02:02,116 --> 00:02:04,276 Speaker 1: happiness and how our minds tend to lie to us 36 00:02:04,316 --> 00:02:06,876 Speaker 1: about the sorts of things that make us happy. And 37 00:02:06,876 --> 00:02:08,876 Speaker 1: one of the biggest ways our lying minds fool us 38 00:02:08,956 --> 00:02:11,516 Speaker 1: is when it comes to our free time. The Happiness 39 00:02:11,516 --> 00:02:13,916 Speaker 1: science is super clear about the well being benefits of 40 00:02:13,956 --> 00:02:16,796 Speaker 1: taking a break, but many of us still struggle to 41 00:02:16,836 --> 00:02:19,396 Speaker 1: do that. It's why I pick one day each year 42 00:02:19,476 --> 00:02:22,396 Speaker 1: to surprise the overloaded students in my Happiness class at Yale. 43 00:02:23,236 --> 00:02:25,236 Speaker 1: When they arrive at the lecture hall, thinking it's time 44 00:02:25,236 --> 00:02:28,236 Speaker 1: for class, they're handed a permission slip telling them surprise, 45 00:02:28,396 --> 00:02:30,956 Speaker 1: today's rest day, so they need to head off and 46 00:02:30,996 --> 00:02:33,796 Speaker 1: do something fun instead. The students often look a little 47 00:02:33,796 --> 00:02:36,036 Speaker 1: shell shocked when they file out of the hall, but 48 00:02:36,116 --> 00:02:38,636 Speaker 1: many of them report back that they've loved their unexpected 49 00:02:38,676 --> 00:02:41,636 Speaker 1: time off. My students wind up hanging out with friends 50 00:02:41,716 --> 00:02:44,516 Speaker 1: or exploring somewhere new on campus with someone they met 51 00:02:44,556 --> 00:02:47,756 Speaker 1: leaving class. Some of them even say that this unexpected 52 00:02:47,756 --> 00:02:50,676 Speaker 1: time affluence moment was one of their most memorable days 53 00:02:50,676 --> 00:02:53,316 Speaker 1: at Yale. I think I'm teaching these young scholars a 54 00:02:53,396 --> 00:02:57,076 Speaker 1: valuable life lesson, but I've definitely gotten some pushback. Who 55 00:02:57,076 --> 00:02:59,916 Speaker 1: does Laura Santos think she is letting hundreds of students 56 00:02:59,916 --> 00:03:02,476 Speaker 1: skip class they're paying a lot for their education. 57 00:03:03,636 --> 00:03:06,476 Speaker 3: Well, I think you're very wise, Laurie, But what I'm 58 00:03:06,516 --> 00:03:09,996 Speaker 3: hearing is a story in which they all live happily 59 00:03:10,196 --> 00:03:13,516 Speaker 3: ever after, and that's not quite how we do things here. 60 00:03:14,156 --> 00:03:33,676 Speaker 3: On Cautionary Tales. 61 00:03:36,676 --> 00:03:39,556 Speaker 1: Tim, you promised me a cautionary tale about holidays and rest. 62 00:03:39,796 --> 00:03:43,956 Speaker 3: Indeed did you ever hear the sad tale of Saint 63 00:03:44,116 --> 00:03:49,156 Speaker 3: Lubbock's Day. Uh No, want to be honest, I've had 64 00:03:49,156 --> 00:03:52,436 Speaker 3: I Until recently, Saint Lubbuck's Day was a jokey name 65 00:03:52,516 --> 00:03:55,916 Speaker 3: for public holidays in the UK. There is no Saint Lubbock. 66 00:03:56,476 --> 00:03:59,436 Speaker 3: Sir John Lubbock was the politician who in the eighteen 67 00:03:59,476 --> 00:04:03,956 Speaker 3: seventies proposed a law closing the banks for four mondays 68 00:04:03,956 --> 00:04:07,156 Speaker 3: a year in spring and summer. He knew that on 69 00:04:07,276 --> 00:04:11,916 Speaker 3: these bank holidays other businesses would probably close too, and 70 00:04:11,996 --> 00:04:14,996 Speaker 3: if he got his way, the British working classes would 71 00:04:14,996 --> 00:04:17,036 Speaker 3: get an extra day off to go to the beach. 72 00:04:17,236 --> 00:04:18,276 Speaker 1: That sounds pretty good to me. 73 00:04:18,836 --> 00:04:21,396 Speaker 3: It sounds great, although of course there were all the 74 00:04:21,436 --> 00:04:26,076 Speaker 3: objections you might expect from commercial interests. Victorian Britain, remember, 75 00:04:26,516 --> 00:04:30,276 Speaker 3: also gave us the character of Ebenezer Scrooge, the man 76 00:04:30,316 --> 00:04:33,676 Speaker 3: who grumbled on Christmas Eve to his hard working employee 77 00:04:33,716 --> 00:04:38,076 Speaker 3: Bob Cratchett. You'll be wanting the whole day off tomorrow, 78 00:04:38,316 --> 00:04:43,036 Speaker 3: I suppose. But the laws passed, the new holidays were introduced, 79 00:04:43,156 --> 00:04:47,276 Speaker 3: and for almost a century all was well. And then 80 00:04:47,876 --> 00:04:53,116 Speaker 3: in nineteen sixty four Lubbock's Bank holidays came back to 81 00:04:53,196 --> 00:04:57,236 Speaker 3: bite the British on their backsides. The first bank holiday 82 00:04:57,276 --> 00:04:59,276 Speaker 3: of the year was damp and dismal. 83 00:05:00,156 --> 00:05:02,236 Speaker 1: I mean, is that all that unusual in the UK? 84 00:05:03,236 --> 00:05:06,356 Speaker 3: Not really, Lourie, But on this particular day the bad 85 00:05:06,396 --> 00:05:11,076 Speaker 3: weather caused trouble in the small coastal town of Clacton 86 00:05:11,116 --> 00:05:15,156 Speaker 3: on Sea. The baby boomers were teenagers then, with money 87 00:05:15,156 --> 00:05:18,436 Speaker 3: in their pockets and some worried no sense of how 88 00:05:18,516 --> 00:05:22,796 Speaker 3: to behave. Unable to sunbathe on the beach, the bank 89 00:05:22,876 --> 00:05:29,076 Speaker 3: holiday visitors decided instead to fight. The battle lines were sartorial. 90 00:05:29,356 --> 00:05:33,556 Speaker 3: The mop topped, suit wearing Italian scooter riding mods took 91 00:05:33,596 --> 00:05:37,796 Speaker 3: on the greasy haired, leather clad bikers the rockers. The 92 00:05:37,836 --> 00:05:41,196 Speaker 3: clashes fed a paranoia amongst grown ups that bed sired 93 00:05:41,236 --> 00:05:47,116 Speaker 3: a generation of hooligans, spoiled, entitled and rebellious, and thanks 94 00:05:47,156 --> 00:05:50,596 Speaker 3: to bank holidays, able to descend en mass to normally 95 00:05:50,716 --> 00:05:58,076 Speaker 3: genteel resort towns to wreak havoc. On subsequent holiday mondays, 96 00:05:58,276 --> 00:06:03,036 Speaker 3: more riots erupted, politicians weighed up rushing through new laws, 97 00:06:03,716 --> 00:06:09,116 Speaker 3: were detention camps the answer or punishment floggings. The news 98 00:06:09,156 --> 00:06:12,716 Speaker 3: papers were in little doubt that the nation was only 99 00:06:12,796 --> 00:06:18,996 Speaker 3: another bank holiday away from anarchy. One headline almost reddished 100 00:06:18,996 --> 00:06:23,516 Speaker 3: the prospect, saying the break from work had become a 101 00:06:23,636 --> 00:06:28,316 Speaker 3: day of terror. On the final bank holiday of the summer, 102 00:06:28,916 --> 00:06:33,436 Speaker 3: police leave was canceled. Officers instead gathered by an Air 103 00:06:33,476 --> 00:06:37,236 Speaker 3: Force base outside London, where the Royal Air Force would 104 00:06:37,276 --> 00:06:41,196 Speaker 3: fly them to wherever violence flared next to reinforce the 105 00:06:41,356 --> 00:06:43,556 Speaker 3: doubtlessly outnumbered local police. 106 00:06:44,036 --> 00:06:46,276 Speaker 1: I love this story, Tim, but is there a lesson 107 00:06:46,316 --> 00:06:48,276 Speaker 1: in there about how to lead more fulfilling lives? 108 00:06:49,116 --> 00:06:54,076 Speaker 3: Uh? Not really, It was just this weird moment in history. 109 00:06:54,476 --> 00:06:58,396 Speaker 3: Everybody lost their minds about teenage fashion easters fighting on 110 00:06:58,476 --> 00:07:01,756 Speaker 3: bank holidays, and then everything was fine again. 111 00:07:02,596 --> 00:07:05,276 Speaker 1: In that case, the story might be a cautionary tale, 112 00:07:05,516 --> 00:07:08,156 Speaker 1: but it doesn't really work for the Happiness Lab. Do 113 00:07:08,196 --> 00:07:10,716 Speaker 1: you have any other tales of disaster that actually teach 114 00:07:10,796 --> 00:07:12,836 Speaker 1: us something about being happier and less stressed? 115 00:07:13,596 --> 00:07:16,956 Speaker 3: Yes, Laurie. Let me take you back to a sunday 116 00:07:17,156 --> 00:07:21,396 Speaker 3: in the nineteen twenties in the Soviet Union. If you 117 00:07:21,516 --> 00:07:25,596 Speaker 3: stand outside a factory, peering through the window or pressing 118 00:07:25,676 --> 00:07:29,356 Speaker 3: your ear to the door, you see nothing and hear nothing. 119 00:07:30,156 --> 00:07:34,996 Speaker 3: The factories are empty, the tools lie idle the machines, 120 00:07:35,116 --> 00:07:40,076 Speaker 3: what few machines there are are silent. Sunday is a 121 00:07:40,196 --> 00:07:45,836 Speaker 3: day of rest for everyone. But this won't do. Russia 122 00:07:45,916 --> 00:07:50,476 Speaker 3: had been a backward nation, a poor agricultural economy full 123 00:07:50,476 --> 00:07:54,956 Speaker 3: of illiterate peasants exploited by an inbred nobility. But the 124 00:07:54,996 --> 00:07:59,916 Speaker 3: brave new Soviet Union it needed to industrialize fast, Like 125 00:07:59,956 --> 00:08:04,276 Speaker 3: the British and the Americans. Workers were cheap, but machines 126 00:08:04,596 --> 00:08:08,476 Speaker 3: were expensive. To let them gather dust each Sunday just 127 00:08:08,516 --> 00:08:14,116 Speaker 3: seem absurd. Not that anyone wanted to abolish rest days naturally, 128 00:08:14,196 --> 00:08:19,516 Speaker 3: not the brave Soviet laborer, whose sweat lubricated the wheels 129 00:08:19,516 --> 00:08:23,316 Speaker 3: of industrial progress, must be allowed to regain his strength 130 00:08:23,356 --> 00:08:29,716 Speaker 3: from time to time. So what could be done? Enter 131 00:08:29,836 --> 00:08:34,716 Speaker 3: an economist named Yuri Laren. In May nineteen twenty nine, 132 00:08:35,276 --> 00:08:40,476 Speaker 3: Laren proposed a brilliant, bold, and extremely odd plan to 133 00:08:40,636 --> 00:08:44,836 Speaker 3: reshape the calendar. And since Laren worked for Joseph Stalin, 134 00:08:45,396 --> 00:08:49,876 Speaker 3: that brilliant, bold and extremely odd plan soon became the 135 00:08:49,916 --> 00:08:54,556 Speaker 3: new reality for Soviet workers. When the workers arrived at 136 00:08:54,596 --> 00:08:58,196 Speaker 3: the factory gates, each was handed a slip of colored 137 00:08:58,236 --> 00:09:03,596 Speaker 3: paper green, orange, purple, red, or yellow what did the 138 00:09:03,636 --> 00:09:07,676 Speaker 3: color signify. It signified which day off you'd get to 139 00:09:07,716 --> 00:09:13,316 Speaker 3: take for the rest of your working life. September twenty ninth, 140 00:09:13,436 --> 00:09:17,036 Speaker 3: nineteen twenty nine, was scheduled to be the Soviet Union's 141 00:09:17,316 --> 00:09:22,596 Speaker 3: final Sunday. After that, a five day working week. Everyone 142 00:09:22,636 --> 00:09:25,396 Speaker 3: would get a day off every five days. The green 143 00:09:25,436 --> 00:09:28,436 Speaker 3: slip workers would get one day off together, the orange 144 00:09:28,436 --> 00:09:31,276 Speaker 3: slip workers would get another, and so on. And of 145 00:09:31,316 --> 00:09:35,236 Speaker 3: course that meant that on any given day, four out 146 00:09:35,316 --> 00:09:38,796 Speaker 3: of five workers would show up for work. The factories 147 00:09:38,796 --> 00:09:41,956 Speaker 3: and the machines could operate three hundred and sixty five 148 00:09:42,076 --> 00:09:46,556 Speaker 3: days a year. Yuri Laren system was named near Prevka, 149 00:09:46,916 --> 00:09:52,636 Speaker 3: the continuous work week. Outside the Soviet Union, newspapers published 150 00:09:52,636 --> 00:09:56,676 Speaker 3: cartoons depicting Saturday and Sunday being shot. 151 00:10:00,716 --> 00:10:03,836 Speaker 1: You can see the appeal of Neprevka, especially to a 152 00:10:03,876 --> 00:10:07,316 Speaker 1: Soviet economist in the nineteen twenties. It seems like a 153 00:10:07,316 --> 00:10:10,596 Speaker 1: great idea, as long as you see to abstract notions 154 00:10:10,716 --> 00:10:15,476 Speaker 1: and avoid the rather gnarly specifics of real people. Before Nipreva, 155 00:10:15,636 --> 00:10:18,876 Speaker 1: Soviet workers would have taken Saturday and Sunday off, but 156 00:10:18,996 --> 00:10:21,876 Speaker 1: many only got to rest on Sundays. Switching to the 157 00:10:21,916 --> 00:10:25,156 Speaker 1: continuous five day week made things more equal and gave 158 00:10:25,236 --> 00:10:28,596 Speaker 1: many workers even more rest days and continuous work meant 159 00:10:28,596 --> 00:10:32,036 Speaker 1: those valuable machines and factory floors would no longer stand 160 00:10:32,076 --> 00:10:34,556 Speaker 1: idle for days at a time. They could now be 161 00:10:34,716 --> 00:10:38,276 Speaker 1: used all year long. But the problem with the idea 162 00:10:38,316 --> 00:10:40,676 Speaker 1: becomes kind of obvious when you take a second to 163 00:10:40,676 --> 00:10:44,276 Speaker 1: think about real people's lives. If everyone was resting on 164 00:10:44,316 --> 00:10:47,116 Speaker 1: different days, how could a sports team meet to play 165 00:10:47,116 --> 00:10:50,596 Speaker 1: a morning game or acquire get together to sing. What 166 00:10:50,676 --> 00:10:52,876 Speaker 1: if one person was a yellow and their spouse was 167 00:10:52,916 --> 00:10:55,476 Speaker 1: a green, What is there for us to do at 168 00:10:55,476 --> 00:10:58,036 Speaker 1: home if our wives are in the factory, our children 169 00:10:58,076 --> 00:11:01,636 Speaker 1: at school, and nobody can visit us, complained one worker. 170 00:11:02,316 --> 00:11:06,556 Speaker 1: What Indeed, Tim's tale of Niprevka has something important to 171 00:11:06,596 --> 00:11:09,636 Speaker 1: teach us about time off today. Yes, taking time to 172 00:11:09,676 --> 00:11:12,236 Speaker 1: rest in play is important, but it's also just as 173 00:11:12,276 --> 00:11:15,116 Speaker 1: important to make sure you have time off when everyone 174 00:11:15,116 --> 00:11:19,276 Speaker 1: else is resting and playing warring mods and rockers. Notwithstanding, 175 00:11:19,956 --> 00:11:22,276 Speaker 1: these days, we talk a lot about making sure we 176 00:11:22,316 --> 00:11:25,316 Speaker 1: have some me time, But could we be undervaluing the 177 00:11:25,356 --> 00:11:29,236 Speaker 1: importance of having some we time. We'll find out when 178 00:11:29,236 --> 00:11:31,716 Speaker 1: the Happiness Lab crossover with cautionary tales. 179 00:11:31,876 --> 00:11:43,876 Speaker 3: Comes back from the brink, We're Back. Yuri Larin's Neprevka 180 00:11:43,916 --> 00:11:48,956 Speaker 3: project seems like a historical curiosity, but modern writers have 181 00:11:49,076 --> 00:11:51,476 Speaker 3: started to pick up on the story and to draw 182 00:11:51,596 --> 00:11:54,676 Speaker 3: lessons from what was one of the most extraordinary attempts 183 00:11:54,956 --> 00:11:59,116 Speaker 3: ever made to reform the calendar. Writing in The Atlantic 184 00:11:59,196 --> 00:12:03,556 Speaker 3: in twenty nineteen, Judith Shulevitz pointed to the plight of 185 00:12:03,676 --> 00:12:08,156 Speaker 3: low income workers who had their hours set unpredictably and 186 00:12:08,156 --> 00:12:13,156 Speaker 3: at short notice by a capricious, seeming algorithm. The hours 187 00:12:13,356 --> 00:12:17,636 Speaker 3: might be too short to pay the bills or exhaustingly long, 188 00:12:18,476 --> 00:12:22,236 Speaker 3: but they might also be in a prevca hours reasonable 189 00:12:22,356 --> 00:12:29,156 Speaker 3: enough when viewed in isolation, but desynchronized. This desynchronization makes 190 00:12:29,236 --> 00:12:33,836 Speaker 3: it impossible for people to socialize with friends, to join clubs, 191 00:12:33,916 --> 00:12:38,196 Speaker 3: or participate in community activities, or even to see their 192 00:12:38,276 --> 00:12:44,676 Speaker 3: own partners. The economist Heather Boushi, in her book Finding Time, 193 00:12:45,396 --> 00:12:49,316 Speaker 3: scrutinizes the plight of these workers. Although some people are 194 00:12:49,356 --> 00:12:53,676 Speaker 3: compensated very well for working unusual hours, and others find 195 00:12:53,716 --> 00:12:57,516 Speaker 3: that those hours fit perfectly with their own needs, that's 196 00:12:58,396 --> 00:13:03,196 Speaker 3: not typical. The majority of workers with a non standard schedule, 197 00:13:03,756 --> 00:13:07,956 Speaker 3: are making less money than average. They're all so likely 198 00:13:07,996 --> 00:13:11,196 Speaker 3: to be working in these jobs, not by preference, but 199 00:13:11,276 --> 00:13:15,076 Speaker 3: because they couldn't find anything with more normal hours, and 200 00:13:15,156 --> 00:13:18,876 Speaker 3: the experience can be grim. You have to show up 201 00:13:18,956 --> 00:13:23,356 Speaker 3: whenever the boss says to show up, often at short notice. 202 00:13:23,436 --> 00:13:26,196 Speaker 3: If you say you're not available, that's a mark against you, 203 00:13:26,676 --> 00:13:29,996 Speaker 3: and soon enough you might find yourself looking for another job. 204 00:13:30,996 --> 00:13:33,636 Speaker 3: To see an example of just how much trouble these 205 00:13:33,716 --> 00:13:39,716 Speaker 3: capricious schedules can cause, let's meet Jeannette Navarro, a Starbucks barista. 206 00:13:40,316 --> 00:13:46,196 Speaker 3: Navarro loved being a barista. Upbeat, determined, and persistent. Navarro 207 00:13:46,356 --> 00:13:49,876 Speaker 3: had charmed her way into the job, was dealing with 208 00:13:49,916 --> 00:13:53,116 Speaker 3: a three hour commute across San Diego on the bus, 209 00:13:53,436 --> 00:13:56,116 Speaker 3: and was looking to provide some stability for her four 210 00:13:56,196 --> 00:14:00,436 Speaker 3: year old son, Gavin. But the hours at Starbucks just 211 00:14:00,596 --> 00:14:04,556 Speaker 3: kept changing with just a few days notice, thanks to 212 00:14:04,596 --> 00:14:08,916 Speaker 3: a scheduling algorithm design to move staff into precisely the 213 00:14:09,196 --> 00:14:13,596 Speaker 3: right place at precisely the right time. From the point 214 00:14:13,596 --> 00:14:19,996 Speaker 3: of view of the business, Particularly dreaded was cloapening when 215 00:14:20,036 --> 00:14:23,116 Speaker 3: your shift had you closing the Starbucks branch at night 216 00:14:23,996 --> 00:14:27,036 Speaker 3: and also opening it the next morning just a few 217 00:14:27,076 --> 00:14:32,556 Speaker 3: hours later. Tiring at the best of times, extremely exhausting 218 00:14:32,636 --> 00:14:35,636 Speaker 3: if you also have a long commute, and if you're 219 00:14:35,636 --> 00:14:39,076 Speaker 3: trying to get childcare both for a late night and 220 00:14:39,236 --> 00:14:44,196 Speaker 3: an early morning, a nightmare. In a powerful article in 221 00:14:44,396 --> 00:14:50,076 Speaker 3: New York Times, reporter Jody Cantor showed the unpredictable scheduling 222 00:14:50,276 --> 00:14:54,676 Speaker 3: playing havoc with Jeanette's life. She was endlessly trying to 223 00:14:54,716 --> 00:14:58,916 Speaker 3: find weekend or evening childcare for Gavin at short notice, 224 00:14:59,396 --> 00:15:03,316 Speaker 3: which meant calling in favors and putting relationships under strain. 225 00:15:04,076 --> 00:15:07,836 Speaker 3: Jeanette was living with her aunt, but after one too 226 00:15:07,916 --> 00:15:12,236 Speaker 3: many arguments, she moved in with her boyfriend instead. The 227 00:15:12,316 --> 00:15:17,676 Speaker 3: boyfriend had been supportive, but he too lost patience. Jeanette's 228 00:15:17,676 --> 00:15:20,876 Speaker 3: need for last minute childcare was making it impossible for 229 00:15:20,996 --> 00:15:23,996 Speaker 3: him to realize his own dreams of going back to school. 230 00:15:24,876 --> 00:15:28,756 Speaker 3: As for Jeannette's hopes of completing her own degree, it 231 00:15:28,836 --> 00:15:29,876 Speaker 3: was simply impossible. 232 00:15:30,956 --> 00:15:33,916 Speaker 1: Canter's piece was published in twenty fourteen. It made a 233 00:15:33,996 --> 00:15:38,956 Speaker 1: huge splash and immediately prompted Starbucks to change its scheduling policy. But, 234 00:15:38,996 --> 00:15:42,436 Speaker 1: as Kanter explained in her article, almost every major retailer 235 00:15:42,476 --> 00:15:46,436 Speaker 1: and restaurant gene uses some variant of the same scheduling software. 236 00:15:48,316 --> 00:15:51,116 Speaker 1: Today's low income workers all over the Western world are 237 00:15:51,116 --> 00:15:55,316 Speaker 1: coping with scheduling that's so antisocial it makes Naprevka seem 238 00:15:55,396 --> 00:15:59,796 Speaker 1: positively humane in comparison. But what's even stranger is that 239 00:15:59,796 --> 00:16:03,116 Speaker 1: today there's also a group of privileged people, folks with 240 00:16:03,156 --> 00:16:06,356 Speaker 1: more autonomy over their time than ever before, who are 241 00:16:06,356 --> 00:16:10,716 Speaker 1: somehow managing to inflict a kind of Napreevka on themselves. 242 00:16:11,036 --> 00:16:14,956 Speaker 3: Yes, a couple of years after Judith Schulevitz published her 243 00:16:14,996 --> 00:16:19,916 Speaker 3: reflections on Neprivka in The Atlantic, Oliver Berkman's book Four 244 00:16:19,996 --> 00:16:23,996 Speaker 3: Thousand Weeks pointed out that people at the other end 245 00:16:24,036 --> 00:16:27,276 Speaker 3: of the economic ladder might be trapped in an apprevca 246 00:16:27,316 --> 00:16:32,076 Speaker 3: of their own, making the hybrid workers, the freelancers, and 247 00:16:32,156 --> 00:16:37,836 Speaker 3: above all the digital nomads of Instagram, possibly people like you, 248 00:16:38,796 --> 00:16:44,476 Speaker 3: certainly people like me. These people all had unprecedented control 249 00:16:44,596 --> 00:16:48,276 Speaker 3: over where and when they worked. They could write code 250 00:16:48,356 --> 00:16:51,796 Speaker 3: in a Bermuda beach cottage, they could handle their emails 251 00:16:51,836 --> 00:16:55,156 Speaker 3: from a summer house near Walden Pond, or on a 252 00:16:55,236 --> 00:16:58,316 Speaker 3: mundane level, they could take a yoga class instead of 253 00:16:58,396 --> 00:17:03,396 Speaker 3: hitting the morning commute. All very pleasant, but, as Berkman 254 00:17:03,476 --> 00:17:07,836 Speaker 3: pointed out, if you insist on absolute freedom over when 255 00:17:07,996 --> 00:17:12,676 Speaker 3: and where you work, you risk exercising that freedom all 256 00:17:12,676 --> 00:17:16,116 Speaker 3: by yourself. When we all worked nine to five at 257 00:17:16,116 --> 00:17:18,836 Speaker 3: the office, we could all bond together in the canteen, 258 00:17:19,396 --> 00:17:22,236 Speaker 3: meet up for a drink after work on Friday, and 259 00:17:22,276 --> 00:17:25,596 Speaker 3: feel confident that not only would we be free on Sunday, 260 00:17:25,716 --> 00:17:29,316 Speaker 3: but that all our friends would be too. Now our 261 00:17:29,396 --> 00:17:32,836 Speaker 3: schedule is out of step with everyone else's. You can 262 00:17:32,876 --> 00:17:36,316 Speaker 3: do what you want, but good luck finding someone who 263 00:17:36,396 --> 00:17:39,156 Speaker 3: happens to be free to do it with you. But 264 00:17:39,236 --> 00:17:43,076 Speaker 3: maybe that's fine. After all, the digital nomad can dodge 265 00:17:43,156 --> 00:17:48,396 Speaker 3: the lines for everything from the dentist to Disneyland, avoiding 266 00:17:48,436 --> 00:17:53,316 Speaker 3: the rush hour traffic and the peak priced airfares. There's 267 00:17:53,356 --> 00:17:59,396 Speaker 3: a certain luxury in avoiding the crowds. Half a century 268 00:17:59,476 --> 00:18:04,916 Speaker 3: after Yurilarian's Niaprevka was introduced, a very different economist in 269 00:18:04,956 --> 00:18:10,636 Speaker 3: a very different setting started musing this question. The economist's 270 00:18:10,676 --> 00:18:16,636 Speaker 3: name was Thomas Shelling. Shelling puzzled over topics ranging from 271 00:18:16,876 --> 00:18:20,956 Speaker 3: how to quit smoking to how to make nuclear deterrence credible. 272 00:18:21,556 --> 00:18:26,676 Speaker 3: Stanley Kubrick asked Shelling for advice before directing Doctor Strangelove, 273 00:18:27,156 --> 00:18:32,556 Speaker 3: a comedy about nuclear armageddon. Shelling was that sort of thinker. 274 00:18:33,556 --> 00:18:36,916 Speaker 3: So what did Shelling have to say about scheduling the weekend. 275 00:18:37,796 --> 00:18:41,556 Speaker 3: Well Over the course of the twentieth century, Americans were 276 00:18:41,596 --> 00:18:46,876 Speaker 3: working gradually shorter hours. By the late nineteen seventies, it 277 00:18:46,996 --> 00:18:49,996 Speaker 3: seemed that a four day work week might one day 278 00:18:50,036 --> 00:18:54,996 Speaker 3: be commonplace. Maybe maybe not, said Shelling. But if it 279 00:18:55,076 --> 00:19:00,556 Speaker 3: did become commonplace, here's a question, which day off should 280 00:19:00,596 --> 00:19:05,756 Speaker 3: we take? Should everyone take Friday off, or maybe Wednesday? 281 00:19:06,316 --> 00:19:10,036 Speaker 3: Or maybe we should all choose our own day. Let 282 00:19:10,116 --> 00:19:14,316 Speaker 3: me quote from his nineteen seventy eight book Micro Motives 283 00:19:14,716 --> 00:19:19,396 Speaker 3: and Macro Behavior. The day you'd prefer to have off 284 00:19:19,556 --> 00:19:22,956 Speaker 3: may depend on what days other people have off. A 285 00:19:22,996 --> 00:19:25,996 Speaker 3: weekday is great for going to the dentist, unless the 286 00:19:26,076 --> 00:19:29,156 Speaker 3: dentist takes the same day off. Friday is a great 287 00:19:29,196 --> 00:19:32,716 Speaker 3: day to head for the country, avoiding Saturday traffic unless 288 00:19:32,876 --> 00:19:36,276 Speaker 3: everyone has Friday off. Tuesday is no good for going 289 00:19:36,356 --> 00:19:38,916 Speaker 3: to the beach if Wednesday is the day the children 290 00:19:38,996 --> 00:19:42,596 Speaker 3: have no school. Staggered days are great for relieving the 291 00:19:42,636 --> 00:19:46,236 Speaker 3: golf courses and the shopping centers, but it may demoralize 292 00:19:46,316 --> 00:19:49,316 Speaker 3: teachers and classes to have a fifth of the children 293 00:19:49,596 --> 00:19:53,196 Speaker 3: officially absent from school each day of the week, and 294 00:19:53,276 --> 00:19:55,796 Speaker 3: may confuse families if the fourth grader is home on 295 00:19:55,876 --> 00:20:00,356 Speaker 3: Tuesday and the fifth grader on Wednesday, and the children 296 00:20:00,436 --> 00:20:02,716 Speaker 3: cannot very well go to school the day that the 297 00:20:02,756 --> 00:20:05,596 Speaker 3: teacher isn't there, nor can the teacher go to the 298 00:20:05,676 --> 00:20:08,076 Speaker 3: dentist on the day the dentist takes off to go 299 00:20:08,116 --> 00:20:12,716 Speaker 3: to the beach with his children. And in fact, Shelling 300 00:20:12,796 --> 00:20:16,516 Speaker 3: had some of the same concerns as Yury Larin, even 301 00:20:16,556 --> 00:20:20,076 Speaker 3: though he didn't have the same affection for central planning. 302 00:20:20,876 --> 00:20:23,796 Speaker 3: While the poor workers of the Soviet Union were upset 303 00:20:23,836 --> 00:20:27,676 Speaker 3: that they all had different rest days, Shelling was worried 304 00:20:27,716 --> 00:20:31,396 Speaker 3: that in an affluent society, we might all end up 305 00:20:31,516 --> 00:20:35,236 Speaker 3: taking the same day off, probably Friday, even though it 306 00:20:35,236 --> 00:20:38,716 Speaker 3: would ease congestion if we were able to spread those 307 00:20:38,796 --> 00:20:43,156 Speaker 3: breaks around. Where's Uri Laren when you need him? And 308 00:20:43,236 --> 00:20:47,716 Speaker 3: actually there's some evidence that Shelling had a point. After 309 00:20:47,756 --> 00:20:51,076 Speaker 3: the pandemic, many office workers are working from home a 310 00:20:51,116 --> 00:20:54,956 Speaker 3: couple of days a week, and they're usually choosing Friday 311 00:20:55,236 --> 00:20:58,956 Speaker 3: as the homeworking day rather than say Wednesday. 312 00:20:59,676 --> 00:20:59,836 Speaker 2: Bah. 313 00:20:59,876 --> 00:21:01,516 Speaker 1: Wait, Tim, doesn't that make sense? 314 00:21:02,196 --> 00:21:04,476 Speaker 3: Well, in some ways it makes perfect sense, Laurie. But 315 00:21:04,796 --> 00:21:07,876 Speaker 3: Ury Larin would be tearing his hair out. Now we 316 00:21:07,956 --> 00:21:12,956 Speaker 3: have these expensive blocks, expensive public transit, expensive roads, and 317 00:21:13,076 --> 00:21:16,196 Speaker 3: rather than spreading out our use of them, office workers 318 00:21:16,196 --> 00:21:19,276 Speaker 3: are generally coming into work on Wednesday and staying home 319 00:21:19,276 --> 00:21:22,596 Speaker 3: on Friday, which is exactly what Shelling was talking about 320 00:21:22,636 --> 00:21:25,876 Speaker 3: in the nineteen seventies. So, Laurie, I have a question 321 00:21:25,956 --> 00:21:29,276 Speaker 3: for you. What does the science of well being tell 322 00:21:29,356 --> 00:21:32,436 Speaker 3: us about taking a break? Should we be trying to 323 00:21:32,476 --> 00:21:35,556 Speaker 3: coordinate with everyone else or is there a particular pleasure 324 00:21:35,636 --> 00:21:38,836 Speaker 3: in taking a vacation while everyone else is still at work. 325 00:21:39,356 --> 00:21:41,236 Speaker 1: Well, I have a lot of thoughts about that, Tim, 326 00:21:41,556 --> 00:21:43,796 Speaker 1: and you can hear all about them after the break. 327 00:21:54,276 --> 00:21:54,796 Speaker 3: We're back. 328 00:21:54,876 --> 00:21:57,276 Speaker 1: I'm doctor Laurie Santos of the Happiness Lab, and this 329 00:21:57,436 --> 00:22:01,516 Speaker 1: is a crossover episode with Cautionary Tales with Tim Hartford. So, Tim, 330 00:22:01,556 --> 00:22:03,796 Speaker 1: you wanted to know what the evidence tells us about rest, 331 00:22:03,876 --> 00:22:05,196 Speaker 1: holidays and happiness. 332 00:22:05,596 --> 00:22:08,236 Speaker 3: I did. I did, And in particular this idea of 333 00:22:08,476 --> 00:22:10,556 Speaker 3: whether we should be taking a break at the same time. 334 00:22:11,076 --> 00:22:13,556 Speaker 1: Well, sadly, there's not much research on that, but there 335 00:22:13,636 --> 00:22:15,916 Speaker 1: is a little bit. One of my favorite studies on 336 00:22:15,916 --> 00:22:18,676 Speaker 1: this came out of Terry Hartigg's lab. He's a psychologist 337 00:22:18,676 --> 00:22:21,356 Speaker 1: in Sweden and he was super interested in this question 338 00:22:21,396 --> 00:22:24,356 Speaker 1: of whether or not Swedes are happier on holidays when 339 00:22:24,356 --> 00:22:27,396 Speaker 1: everyone's taking a holiday. Sweden is an awesome spot to 340 00:22:27,436 --> 00:22:30,276 Speaker 1: study this because they get five weeks of holiday, something 341 00:22:30,316 --> 00:22:32,396 Speaker 1: that folks like me in the United States would kill for. 342 00:22:32,956 --> 00:22:35,036 Speaker 1: The government allows them to take it whenever they want. 343 00:22:35,076 --> 00:22:37,276 Speaker 1: They're not sort of scheduling it so that people have 344 00:22:37,316 --> 00:22:40,396 Speaker 1: to take it at certain times. And because Sweden's super cold, 345 00:22:40,436 --> 00:22:43,076 Speaker 1: many Swedes tend to take the holidays during the summer months. 346 00:22:43,476 --> 00:22:45,796 Speaker 1: And what's cool about that is that lots of Swedes 347 00:22:45,836 --> 00:22:48,196 Speaker 1: are on holiday at the same time. They're all taking 348 00:22:48,236 --> 00:22:50,756 Speaker 1: their vacation time like in the same few months together, 349 00:22:51,156 --> 00:22:52,836 Speaker 1: and so Hardigg was interested in whether or not that 350 00:22:52,876 --> 00:22:55,876 Speaker 1: affected the Swedes' mental health, and he decided to study 351 00:22:55,876 --> 00:22:58,956 Speaker 1: this using a pretty funny measure. He actually looked at 352 00:22:58,956 --> 00:23:04,356 Speaker 1: the government's distribution of SSRIs, these antidepression medications, during different 353 00:23:04,356 --> 00:23:06,196 Speaker 1: times of the year, and he tried to look at 354 00:23:06,196 --> 00:23:10,196 Speaker 1: the correlation between the release of SSRIs and people's vacation time. 355 00:23:10,596 --> 00:23:11,356 Speaker 3: So what do they find. 356 00:23:11,836 --> 00:23:13,916 Speaker 1: Well, what he found is that there's this huge correlation 357 00:23:14,036 --> 00:23:17,916 Speaker 1: between when people are taking SSRIs and when they're on vacation. Namely, 358 00:23:17,956 --> 00:23:21,396 Speaker 1: they take less SSRIs when they're on vacation. The lowest 359 00:23:21,436 --> 00:23:24,676 Speaker 1: month of SSRI use is during July, when everyone's kind 360 00:23:24,676 --> 00:23:28,396 Speaker 1: of taking holiday. And their interpretation was this idea that 361 00:23:28,436 --> 00:23:32,436 Speaker 1: when everybody's on holiday together that forms this buffer against stress. 362 00:23:32,476 --> 00:23:34,396 Speaker 1: We get a lot of social connection, we get to 363 00:23:34,396 --> 00:23:36,196 Speaker 1: hang out with the people we care about, and we're 364 00:23:36,236 --> 00:23:37,516 Speaker 1: just kind of feeling less depressed. 365 00:23:37,756 --> 00:23:40,996 Speaker 3: It makes sense, of course, you do wander. You know, 366 00:23:41,116 --> 00:23:44,156 Speaker 3: July in Sweden is a lot more pleasant than January 367 00:23:44,316 --> 00:23:47,636 Speaker 3: in Sweden. I'm sure they tried to adjust for that, 368 00:23:47,676 --> 00:23:49,956 Speaker 3: but I wonder whether there are other countries that have 369 00:23:50,076 --> 00:23:51,276 Speaker 3: lessons to teach us as well. 370 00:23:51,636 --> 00:23:53,796 Speaker 1: Yeah, another one of my favorites is the lessons that 371 00:23:53,836 --> 00:23:57,076 Speaker 1: come out of Denmark. Danes have this interesting story where 372 00:23:57,276 --> 00:24:00,156 Speaker 1: over time they've developed this much shorter work week, but 373 00:24:00,156 --> 00:24:03,156 Speaker 1: it's actually pretty recent. It started after World War Two, 374 00:24:03,636 --> 00:24:06,356 Speaker 1: around the time that the Danes were getting more into 375 00:24:06,596 --> 00:24:10,756 Speaker 1: like industry rather than agriculture, actually wanted to employ more people. 376 00:24:11,036 --> 00:24:14,476 Speaker 1: But to do that they had to start employing more women, who, 377 00:24:14,676 --> 00:24:16,756 Speaker 1: at least historically, were the ones doing a lot more 378 00:24:16,756 --> 00:24:20,876 Speaker 1: of the childcare. And so the Danish government said, okay, okay, 379 00:24:21,156 --> 00:24:24,236 Speaker 1: we'll make the work week much shorter so that women 380 00:24:24,436 --> 00:24:27,036 Speaker 1: and men can get home and do more childcare. Will 381 00:24:27,116 --> 00:24:29,276 Speaker 1: kind of cut off time around four o'clock so everyone 382 00:24:29,276 --> 00:24:32,156 Speaker 1: can go home early, and that led to this really 383 00:24:32,196 --> 00:24:35,636 Speaker 1: interesting situation where the Danes wound up getting more free 384 00:24:35,636 --> 00:24:39,036 Speaker 1: time off, but importantly more free time off when everyone 385 00:24:39,036 --> 00:24:41,596 Speaker 1: else was having the same free time off. Everyone was 386 00:24:41,636 --> 00:24:44,076 Speaker 1: off in the afternoons, and what seemed to happen over 387 00:24:44,116 --> 00:24:46,756 Speaker 1: time is that the Danes wound up taking much more 388 00:24:46,796 --> 00:24:50,396 Speaker 1: time to be social. Historically, Danes have many more social 389 00:24:50,436 --> 00:24:53,556 Speaker 1: clubs and kind of like athletic groups than most other countries, 390 00:24:53,876 --> 00:24:55,396 Speaker 1: and that's in part because they have time to get 391 00:24:55,436 --> 00:24:58,076 Speaker 1: together around four o'clock where everybody's off of work, so 392 00:24:58,116 --> 00:25:00,156 Speaker 1: you can set up your choir, you can set up 393 00:25:00,156 --> 00:25:01,836 Speaker 1: your soccer club, you can kind of hang out with 394 00:25:01,876 --> 00:25:04,556 Speaker 1: one another because everybody has free time at the same time. 395 00:25:05,036 --> 00:25:08,556 Speaker 3: And do we know how happy the Danes are compared 396 00:25:08,596 --> 00:25:10,716 Speaker 3: to other com is if those comparisons make sense. 397 00:25:11,116 --> 00:25:13,236 Speaker 1: Well, the research seems to show that the Deans overall 398 00:25:13,276 --> 00:25:15,716 Speaker 1: are pretty happy. Historically, they're often at the top of 399 00:25:15,756 --> 00:25:18,756 Speaker 1: the so called World Happiness Report. Sometimes they get beat 400 00:25:18,796 --> 00:25:20,796 Speaker 1: out by Finland, but most of the time Denmark is 401 00:25:20,836 --> 00:25:23,276 Speaker 1: pretty high at the top, and many folks have sort 402 00:25:23,276 --> 00:25:25,476 Speaker 1: of looked to Denmark as one of the happiest countries 403 00:25:25,516 --> 00:25:27,956 Speaker 1: in part because of their social practices. So I think 404 00:25:27,996 --> 00:25:30,436 Speaker 1: they might be onto something with this time off together 405 00:25:30,596 --> 00:25:31,396 Speaker 1: sort of situation. 406 00:25:31,916 --> 00:25:35,236 Speaker 3: Yeah, very interesting. Of course, the problem always with this 407 00:25:35,316 --> 00:25:37,596 Speaker 3: sort of thing is that there are all kinds of 408 00:25:37,596 --> 00:25:42,236 Speaker 3: systematic differences between countries, not just their vacation rules, but 409 00:25:42,276 --> 00:25:45,116 Speaker 3: all sorts of other things. So maybe we should be 410 00:25:45,116 --> 00:25:48,516 Speaker 3: looking at companies within the United States that have different 411 00:25:49,276 --> 00:25:53,596 Speaker 3: vacation policies. Your professor at Yale, Laurie, I don't know it. Yale, 412 00:25:53,996 --> 00:25:56,596 Speaker 3: the undergraduates go home for the summer, so you're all 413 00:25:56,676 --> 00:25:58,476 Speaker 3: kind of taking the same kind of break at the 414 00:25:58,476 --> 00:26:01,516 Speaker 3: same moment. And I know different corporations are experimenting with 415 00:26:01,556 --> 00:26:04,036 Speaker 3: this idea of a company holiday. Do we know anything 416 00:26:04,076 --> 00:26:05,116 Speaker 3: about whether that works? 417 00:26:05,596 --> 00:26:07,076 Speaker 1: Well, this is the kind of thing that I think 418 00:26:07,076 --> 00:26:10,396 Speaker 1: economists are looking at a lot more days. In fact, 419 00:26:10,396 --> 00:26:13,276 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty one was listed as the Year of 420 00:26:13,316 --> 00:26:15,636 Speaker 1: the company wide Vacation. It's the year that many of 421 00:26:15,676 --> 00:26:18,916 Speaker 1: these huge tech companies decided to try an experiment where 422 00:26:18,916 --> 00:26:21,756 Speaker 1: they gave everybody at the company time off together. So 423 00:26:21,836 --> 00:26:24,396 Speaker 1: this was places like LinkedIn and Bumble, a few very 424 00:26:24,436 --> 00:26:28,516 Speaker 1: big healthcare companies, And what people have reported so far 425 00:26:28,676 --> 00:26:32,116 Speaker 1: is that this experiment went pretty well. Employees really like 426 00:26:32,196 --> 00:26:34,996 Speaker 1: the fact that when they're not working, nobody else is working. 427 00:26:34,996 --> 00:26:37,516 Speaker 1: Their boss isn't working, their team isn't working, and that 428 00:26:37,596 --> 00:26:39,676 Speaker 1: means when they get back from holiday, they don't come 429 00:26:39,716 --> 00:26:43,636 Speaker 1: back to a whole inbox flooded with messages telling them 430 00:26:43,636 --> 00:26:45,516 Speaker 1: the stuff that happened when they were out. They're not 431 00:26:45,556 --> 00:26:48,156 Speaker 1: getting these sort of team messages and emails while they're 432 00:26:48,196 --> 00:26:50,716 Speaker 1: on holiday, so there's no real temptation to kind of check. 433 00:26:51,076 --> 00:26:53,796 Speaker 1: And so from the employee's perspective, they really liked being 434 00:26:53,836 --> 00:26:56,156 Speaker 1: off when everybody else at the company was off at 435 00:26:56,196 --> 00:26:56,836 Speaker 1: the same time. 436 00:26:57,396 --> 00:27:00,396 Speaker 3: I really like that. It makes perfect sense. I suppose. 437 00:27:00,436 --> 00:27:02,516 Speaker 3: The other thing about it is that if you are 438 00:27:02,556 --> 00:27:06,356 Speaker 3: going to say everybody in the company is going to 439 00:27:06,396 --> 00:27:09,916 Speaker 3: take the first week of August off like everybody the 440 00:27:09,956 --> 00:27:12,596 Speaker 3: company really has to plan ahead to make that work, 441 00:27:12,996 --> 00:27:14,596 Speaker 3: whereas if you just say, oh, you know, you can 442 00:27:14,636 --> 00:27:16,916 Speaker 3: take you can take some time off, and everyone can 443 00:27:16,956 --> 00:27:19,116 Speaker 3: just go, oh, well, we'll sort of figure it out, 444 00:27:19,196 --> 00:27:20,916 Speaker 3: and they kind of don't figure it out, and in fact, 445 00:27:20,956 --> 00:27:24,436 Speaker 3: what happens is people log in to their email from 446 00:27:24,476 --> 00:27:26,516 Speaker 3: the beach and they don't take a proper holiday and 447 00:27:26,516 --> 00:27:29,236 Speaker 3: they're not doing their job right. So maybe part of 448 00:27:29,276 --> 00:27:32,156 Speaker 3: what's going on here is just this forward planning to 449 00:27:32,276 --> 00:27:33,916 Speaker 3: actually organize to make it work. 450 00:27:34,156 --> 00:27:35,676 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that's a big part of it. I mean, 451 00:27:35,716 --> 00:27:37,396 Speaker 1: I think when you leave and you know that that 452 00:27:37,476 --> 00:27:40,156 Speaker 1: project is done, you know because the final date that 453 00:27:40,156 --> 00:27:42,636 Speaker 1: you submitted it is there. When you know there's no 454 00:27:42,756 --> 00:27:45,476 Speaker 1: chance that somebody really needs you for something, I think 455 00:27:45,556 --> 00:27:47,076 Speaker 1: it means that people can kind of let their hair 456 00:27:47,156 --> 00:27:49,196 Speaker 1: down and relax a lot more. You're not worried that 457 00:27:49,236 --> 00:27:52,396 Speaker 1: something's happening at work that really needs your attention because 458 00:27:52,396 --> 00:27:53,036 Speaker 1: everybody's gone. 459 00:27:53,316 --> 00:27:56,116 Speaker 3: And I suppose this tells us something about this time 460 00:27:56,156 --> 00:27:58,516 Speaker 3: of year as well, that we have in the winter, 461 00:27:58,996 --> 00:28:02,956 Speaker 3: Thanksgiving in the US, Christmas in many parts of the world, 462 00:28:03,156 --> 00:28:06,716 Speaker 3: and these are holidays where part of The point of 463 00:28:06,716 --> 00:28:09,956 Speaker 3: the holiday is everyone's doing it at the same time. 464 00:28:10,276 --> 00:28:13,116 Speaker 3: You know, it's not just a day off or week off. 465 00:28:13,556 --> 00:28:18,236 Speaker 3: It is this shared ritual, this shared experience. I love Christmas. 466 00:28:18,276 --> 00:28:20,276 Speaker 3: I know economists are not supposed to really like Christmas. 467 00:28:20,356 --> 00:28:23,196 Speaker 3: I personally, I really I'm really into Christmas. I love it. 468 00:28:23,516 --> 00:28:26,516 Speaker 3: And it's partly just like everyone's into Christmas. Everyone's doing 469 00:28:26,596 --> 00:28:29,076 Speaker 3: Christmas at the same time, and that's fun. I don't 470 00:28:29,076 --> 00:28:31,116 Speaker 3: know whether there's any research on this. You know, we're 471 00:28:31,116 --> 00:28:33,156 Speaker 3: all trying to do our shopping at the same time, 472 00:28:33,516 --> 00:28:35,276 Speaker 3: we're all trying to book flights to go home for 473 00:28:35,316 --> 00:28:39,396 Speaker 3: Thanksgiving at the same time. That causes a problem, Like 474 00:28:39,516 --> 00:28:40,916 Speaker 3: I kind of feel it's worth it. 475 00:28:41,276 --> 00:28:42,956 Speaker 1: This is a domain where I think it's really hard 476 00:28:43,036 --> 00:28:45,556 Speaker 1: to get at the happiness benefits from taking time off 477 00:28:45,596 --> 00:28:49,076 Speaker 1: together because Christmas is a complicated time for people's mental health, right. 478 00:28:49,276 --> 00:28:51,596 Speaker 1: It's a time when people are processing grief. It's a 479 00:28:51,636 --> 00:28:53,796 Speaker 1: time when we're supposed to be happy. So I'm kind 480 00:28:53,796 --> 00:28:56,116 Speaker 1: of not feeling great. It makes me feel especially bad. 481 00:28:56,316 --> 00:28:58,476 Speaker 1: I love that you love Christmas, team, but Christmas is 482 00:28:58,556 --> 00:29:01,036 Speaker 1: not necessarily one of my favorite holidays. In fact, it's 483 00:29:01,036 --> 00:29:02,756 Speaker 1: one of the times that makes me think that Shelling 484 00:29:02,796 --> 00:29:04,996 Speaker 1: might have been right. Then maybe we should all be 485 00:29:05,036 --> 00:29:07,476 Speaker 1: flying that same week together, especially when it's sort of 486 00:29:07,476 --> 00:29:09,756 Speaker 1: cold and snowy in the US. But maybe that's just me. 487 00:29:10,196 --> 00:29:14,636 Speaker 3: Well, I suppose one of the overarching conclusions that we've 488 00:29:14,636 --> 00:29:17,876 Speaker 3: got to draw from the research on happiness is that 489 00:29:18,516 --> 00:29:21,076 Speaker 3: there are big individual differences, and you can have a 490 00:29:21,076 --> 00:29:23,276 Speaker 3: look at averages and say, oh, this kind of thing 491 00:29:23,316 --> 00:29:25,876 Speaker 3: often makes people happy, But in the end you also 492 00:29:25,956 --> 00:29:28,236 Speaker 3: have to understand yourself and understand what works for you 493 00:29:28,276 --> 00:29:28,996 Speaker 3: as an individual. 494 00:29:29,356 --> 00:29:31,836 Speaker 1: I think that's exactly right. Although that said, I think 495 00:29:31,916 --> 00:29:34,556 Speaker 1: there are some domains in which we really know there 496 00:29:34,596 --> 00:29:36,516 Speaker 1: are certain kinds of things that, at least based on 497 00:29:36,556 --> 00:29:39,276 Speaker 1: the data, seems to make most people happy. And one 498 00:29:39,276 --> 00:29:41,716 Speaker 1: of the big ones is social connection, right, just feeling 499 00:29:41,756 --> 00:29:43,756 Speaker 1: that you're not exactly that lonely. 500 00:29:44,396 --> 00:29:46,156 Speaker 3: So tell me about that. I see a lot of 501 00:29:46,196 --> 00:29:49,516 Speaker 3: dramatic claims about loneliness. What does the research tell us 502 00:29:49,516 --> 00:29:49,996 Speaker 3: about that? 503 00:29:50,236 --> 00:29:52,556 Speaker 1: Well, some of those dramatic claims is that loneliness is 504 00:29:52,636 --> 00:29:55,676 Speaker 1: really bad for our health. Some folks like the Surgeon 505 00:29:55,756 --> 00:29:58,756 Speaker 1: General and the US have quoted statistics like being lonely 506 00:29:58,836 --> 00:30:01,836 Speaker 1: is as bad as smoking fifteen cigarettes a day, that 507 00:30:01,876 --> 00:30:04,876 Speaker 1: it's twice as risky as obesity for your overall health. 508 00:30:05,116 --> 00:30:07,196 Speaker 1: Some of those claims are a little bit overblown, but 509 00:30:07,236 --> 00:30:09,956 Speaker 1: my sense is that pretty much every available study in 510 00:30:09,996 --> 00:30:13,396 Speaker 1: the field of positive psychology suggests that being social is 511 00:30:13,436 --> 00:30:15,996 Speaker 1: pretty good for your happiness. The more you spend time 512 00:30:16,036 --> 00:30:18,276 Speaker 1: with other people, and the more you spend time, especially 513 00:30:18,276 --> 00:30:21,116 Speaker 1: with people you care about, the happier and more satisfied 514 00:30:21,116 --> 00:30:22,196 Speaker 1: with your life you tend to be. 515 00:30:22,716 --> 00:30:25,156 Speaker 3: I'm really enjoying this conversation, Laurie. I like the fact 516 00:30:25,156 --> 00:30:27,356 Speaker 3: that I can just ask any crazy old question and 517 00:30:27,556 --> 00:30:29,716 Speaker 3: you've got You've got the ansection. Let me let me 518 00:30:29,716 --> 00:30:31,956 Speaker 3: throw another one at you. Okay. So digital nomads, Okay, 519 00:30:32,196 --> 00:30:34,276 Speaker 3: they can work wherever they like. They can work whenever 520 00:30:34,316 --> 00:30:36,916 Speaker 3: they like. Any clues as to whether that's actually good 521 00:30:36,956 --> 00:30:39,356 Speaker 3: for their mental health or whether they're kind of fooling themselves. 522 00:30:39,596 --> 00:30:41,476 Speaker 1: Well, this too, I think, is another domain where there's 523 00:30:41,516 --> 00:30:44,236 Speaker 1: relatively little work, but the work that's out there suggests 524 00:30:44,236 --> 00:30:46,596 Speaker 1: an interesting conclusion. I think this is some lovely stuff 525 00:30:46,596 --> 00:30:49,876 Speaker 1: by Rog Chowdery at Harvard Business School, and he's been 526 00:30:49,876 --> 00:30:54,396 Speaker 1: making this distinction between working whenever you want versus working 527 00:30:54,516 --> 00:30:57,596 Speaker 1: wherever you want. You know, when we think of digital nomads, 528 00:30:57,596 --> 00:31:00,196 Speaker 1: we think often of both together. Right, you know, you're 529 00:31:00,236 --> 00:31:01,956 Speaker 1: off working at a beach, and you can do so 530 00:31:02,036 --> 00:31:05,116 Speaker 1: at any time you'd like. But Chowdery is basically finding 531 00:31:05,156 --> 00:31:07,596 Speaker 1: that really the thing that seems to matter for happiness 532 00:31:07,996 --> 00:31:11,396 Speaker 1: is the wherever part, not the whenever part. Why is 533 00:31:11,396 --> 00:31:13,476 Speaker 1: that the case. Well, if you get to choose where 534 00:31:13,516 --> 00:31:15,996 Speaker 1: you want to work, that means you can make sure 535 00:31:16,036 --> 00:31:18,316 Speaker 1: that you're living close to family members or you're living 536 00:31:18,316 --> 00:31:20,996 Speaker 1: close to friends. If you get to choose where you work, 537 00:31:21,036 --> 00:31:23,796 Speaker 1: you can cut down on your commute time. Often these days, 538 00:31:23,796 --> 00:31:25,996 Speaker 1: when people report that they're working from home, they're saving 539 00:31:25,996 --> 00:31:28,636 Speaker 1: on average four point five hours a week just in 540 00:31:28,676 --> 00:31:31,276 Speaker 1: commuting time. And if you then use those hours to 541 00:31:31,276 --> 00:31:33,116 Speaker 1: do something social. You hang out with your kids, you 542 00:31:33,116 --> 00:31:35,636 Speaker 1: hang out with your friends, or if you exercise, that 543 00:31:35,676 --> 00:31:37,796 Speaker 1: can be a huge boon for people's well being. And 544 00:31:37,836 --> 00:31:39,756 Speaker 1: so I think when we start to think about the 545 00:31:39,756 --> 00:31:44,596 Speaker 1: benefits of being a digital nomad, we're really thinking about location, location, location, 546 00:31:44,956 --> 00:31:45,836 Speaker 1: and not timing. 547 00:31:46,236 --> 00:31:50,396 Speaker 3: Okay, so let's talk about the control that people have 548 00:31:50,596 --> 00:31:54,516 Speaker 3: over their time. The autonomy. One of my favorite psychological 549 00:31:54,556 --> 00:31:58,116 Speaker 3: studies is about office design. Should you have a messy desk, 550 00:31:58,116 --> 00:32:01,756 Speaker 3: a tidy desk, a really minimalist office, or lots of 551 00:32:01,796 --> 00:32:03,916 Speaker 3: pot plants and pictures and so on, and what the 552 00:32:03,996 --> 00:32:06,636 Speaker 3: researchers who did that study found it was basically a trick. 553 00:32:07,156 --> 00:32:10,756 Speaker 3: None of it matters. What matters is whether you feel 554 00:32:10,796 --> 00:32:14,276 Speaker 3: you've got control, So like who actually decides whether that's 555 00:32:14,276 --> 00:32:16,956 Speaker 3: a pot plant. If you get to decide, you feel 556 00:32:16,996 --> 00:32:18,836 Speaker 3: good about the pot plants, and if someone else is 557 00:32:18,836 --> 00:32:21,556 Speaker 3: imposing this pot plant on you, you hate the pot plant. 558 00:32:22,036 --> 00:32:24,916 Speaker 3: So autonomy actually turns out to be much more important 559 00:32:24,956 --> 00:32:27,876 Speaker 3: than the things that we think are important. And I 560 00:32:27,916 --> 00:32:31,156 Speaker 3: couldn't help but think of that study when hearing the 561 00:32:31,156 --> 00:32:35,276 Speaker 3: story of Jeanette Navarro and her absolute lack of control 562 00:32:35,396 --> 00:32:36,716 Speaker 3: over her scheduling. 563 00:32:37,156 --> 00:32:39,196 Speaker 1: Well, the science is pretty clear on this. I mean, 564 00:32:39,196 --> 00:32:41,156 Speaker 1: I think this is really almost like a basic fact 565 00:32:41,196 --> 00:32:44,476 Speaker 1: of human psychology, which is that we like having control 566 00:32:44,636 --> 00:32:47,756 Speaker 1: over what's happening to us, and our perception of control 567 00:32:47,836 --> 00:32:50,076 Speaker 1: seems to matter a lot. Their study is, you know, 568 00:32:50,116 --> 00:32:52,676 Speaker 1: from the nineties and so many different domains, whether it's 569 00:32:52,716 --> 00:32:54,836 Speaker 1: control over what's happening in the workplace, which is what 570 00:32:54,836 --> 00:32:57,796 Speaker 1: we're talking about, but also control over your treatment and 571 00:32:57,876 --> 00:33:01,636 Speaker 1: medical context. Kids control over things in schools makes them 572 00:33:01,636 --> 00:33:05,116 Speaker 1: happier and more productive at schools. Our perceived control seems 573 00:33:05,156 --> 00:33:07,436 Speaker 1: to matter a ton when it comes to both our 574 00:33:07,436 --> 00:33:10,996 Speaker 1: satisfaction but also in some cases are productivity. And I 575 00:33:11,036 --> 00:33:13,676 Speaker 1: think that that's something that bosses and employers need to 576 00:33:13,676 --> 00:33:16,476 Speaker 1: be paying attention to. Just giving people a little bit 577 00:33:16,516 --> 00:33:18,916 Speaker 1: more perceived control isn't just going to make them happier 578 00:33:18,916 --> 00:33:21,836 Speaker 1: and more satisfied, maybe even healthier. It's probably going to 579 00:33:21,836 --> 00:33:23,596 Speaker 1: make them work better and faster too. 580 00:33:24,036 --> 00:33:27,636 Speaker 3: Starbucks and these other companies who are using these scheduling algorithms, 581 00:33:27,636 --> 00:33:31,556 Speaker 3: they're not really thinking through the costs they're imposing on 582 00:33:31,636 --> 00:33:36,236 Speaker 3: their employees. And I wonder now post pandemic labor markets 583 00:33:36,236 --> 00:33:38,196 Speaker 3: are a lot tighter. It's actually quite difficult to get 584 00:33:38,196 --> 00:33:40,156 Speaker 3: people to do a lot of jobs, and companies are 585 00:33:40,156 --> 00:33:42,316 Speaker 3: struggling to figure out how do we recruit people, how 586 00:33:42,356 --> 00:33:45,676 Speaker 3: do we minimize turnover? And I something tells me they're 587 00:33:45,676 --> 00:33:48,916 Speaker 3: going to start to figure this out, that hey, maybe 588 00:33:48,956 --> 00:33:54,436 Speaker 3: our algorithm should take the brunt of interruptions and uncertainties, 589 00:33:54,556 --> 00:33:56,956 Speaker 3: and it shouldn't be the employees because the company can 590 00:33:56,996 --> 00:33:59,596 Speaker 3: actually absorb those costs more easily than the individuals. 591 00:33:59,836 --> 00:34:02,596 Speaker 1: And I think companies don't realize how beneficial it might 592 00:34:02,636 --> 00:34:04,716 Speaker 1: be just to their bottom line to absorb some of 593 00:34:04,756 --> 00:34:08,276 Speaker 1: those unhappiness costs that come up with unpredictable scheduling. There's 594 00:34:08,316 --> 00:34:10,316 Speaker 1: this lovely paper that came out of the University of 595 00:34:10,316 --> 00:34:14,236 Speaker 1: Oxford from Jan Emmanuel Deneb's group that shows that happier 596 00:34:14,276 --> 00:34:17,476 Speaker 1: workers wind up not just being more productive, but companies 597 00:34:17,476 --> 00:34:20,716 Speaker 1: that have happier workers wind up earning more. They're very 598 00:34:20,716 --> 00:34:22,556 Speaker 1: bottom line, you know, how much you know they're kind 599 00:34:22,556 --> 00:34:25,076 Speaker 1: of giving back in the stock market. That winds up 600 00:34:25,196 --> 00:34:28,276 Speaker 1: being determined at least in part by how happy workers are. 601 00:34:28,636 --> 00:34:30,756 Speaker 1: And so I think this is a time when companies 602 00:34:30,796 --> 00:34:33,036 Speaker 1: are going to start paying more attention to the happiness 603 00:34:33,036 --> 00:34:35,356 Speaker 1: of their workers. They're going to start realizing it matters 604 00:34:35,356 --> 00:34:37,516 Speaker 1: for their bottom line. And I think this is something 605 00:34:37,516 --> 00:34:39,756 Speaker 1: that not just companies have to start paying attention to. 606 00:34:39,836 --> 00:34:42,796 Speaker 1: I think governments should also start getting involved in this 607 00:34:42,916 --> 00:34:45,956 Speaker 1: unpredictable scheduling. These days in the US, we have all 608 00:34:45,996 --> 00:34:48,996 Speaker 1: these conversations about minimum wage and making sure people have 609 00:34:49,036 --> 00:34:51,476 Speaker 1: a living wage, but there are studies that show that 610 00:34:51,596 --> 00:34:55,036 Speaker 1: unpredictable hours have a worse impact on mental health than 611 00:34:55,076 --> 00:34:57,996 Speaker 1: low wages. I'd love to see the same conversations that 612 00:34:58,036 --> 00:35:02,196 Speaker 1: are happening about minimum wage start happening about unpredictable scheduling 613 00:35:02,236 --> 00:35:04,916 Speaker 1: and the mental health costs that comes from that as well. 614 00:35:04,916 --> 00:35:07,796 Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Lourie. You have been extremely patient 615 00:35:07,876 --> 00:35:11,516 Speaker 3: with all of my questions holidays and rest and well being. 616 00:35:11,676 --> 00:35:13,636 Speaker 1: But wait, Tim, I still have a question for you. 617 00:35:14,076 --> 00:35:15,716 Speaker 1: What happened to Neprevka in the end? 618 00:35:16,276 --> 00:35:20,596 Speaker 3: Ah, Now, that is a good question. It's unclear whether 619 00:35:20,676 --> 00:35:24,956 Speaker 3: the Soviet authorities realized quite how disruptive Npreevka would be, 620 00:35:25,276 --> 00:35:27,316 Speaker 3: and if they did, it's not clear whether they thought 621 00:35:27,316 --> 00:35:30,516 Speaker 3: the disruption was a bug or a feature, because, after all, 622 00:35:31,036 --> 00:35:35,676 Speaker 3: families were a bourgeois institution. But it wasn't long before 623 00:35:35,716 --> 00:35:39,116 Speaker 3: the problems with the system became overwhelming, and on the 624 00:35:39,236 --> 00:35:43,676 Speaker 3: first of December nineteen thirty one, a sixth day of 625 00:35:43,756 --> 00:35:47,516 Speaker 3: rest common to all was introduced, and in the summer 626 00:35:47,516 --> 00:35:51,836 Speaker 3: of nineteen forty the seven day week, including Sunday, was resurrected. 627 00:35:52,076 --> 00:35:54,996 Speaker 3: So even Stalin could change his mind, and I wonder 628 00:35:55,036 --> 00:35:58,116 Speaker 3: whether we can change ours lri Santos, thank you so 629 00:35:58,196 --> 00:35:59,596 Speaker 3: much for joining me, and. 630 00:35:59,556 --> 00:36:00,356 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining me. 631 00:36:00,436 --> 00:36:00,676 Speaker 2: Tim. 632 00:36:00,876 --> 00:36:03,436 Speaker 1: Let's do this again soon. In fact, I have an 633 00:36:03,476 --> 00:36:05,516 Speaker 1: idea I want to discuss with you, and I'm pretty 634 00:36:05,556 --> 00:36:07,916 Speaker 1: sure you probably have a cautionary tale for me on 635 00:36:07,956 --> 00:36:08,556 Speaker 1: the subject. 636 00:36:09,156 --> 00:36:12,116 Speaker 3: Well, I usually do have a cautionary tale on any subject. 637 00:36:12,636 --> 00:36:15,756 Speaker 3: Dr Laurie Santos hosts The Happiness Lab. 638 00:36:15,716 --> 00:36:19,716 Speaker 1: And Tim Hartford hosts Cautionary Tales. Both podcasts are productions 639 00:36:19,716 --> 00:36:22,996 Speaker 1: of Pushkin Industries and are available wherever you get your podcasts.